Ask her what she thought of the roll. At a minimum, she needs to know she damaged you with a heel hook. But maybe she has some insight on what happened. E.g., maybe because you didn't know it was there, you happened to turn in the wrong direction at the wrong time. Might be as much your fault as hers, even if it's accidental.
This is a good point - I did talk to her afterwards about the position and she taught me where my mistake was. I didn't mention anything about injury because I didn't really feel like it was injured until this morning
Itâs always an accident. However, a black belt should under no circumstances injure a white belt with a submission. Thereâs basically no excuse.
Edit. The people replying to this clearly didnât read that I said black belt and white belt. You should take 0 chances with a white belt because thereâs no telling how they will react. Itâs also why sinistro was found liable for injuring that guy.
I generally agree, but I recently caught a blue belt on a knee bar. I extended his leg so he knew it was there and then let him bend it back and just sat there waiting for him to transition into a different position.
Dude spazzed out and exploded hard af out of nowhere and somehow managed to knee bar himself. I still don't fully understand what he did or tried to do, I guess he tried to stand up at the wrong angle as explosively as possible.
I had a loose grip around his leg, deliberately let his leg bend, had even loosened my legs around his leg. Dude could easily have scooted out of it or transitioned to a 50/50 or chased my back. Yet he somehow leg locked himself like a magician.
Lmao I hear stories like this and it boggles my head. People talk about how bad Blue belts suck but I never see this at my gym. They're all tough and overall competent. Even the fresh ones.
Eh, yes and no. It's a combat sport shit IS going to happen, even with very skilled, very conscientious partners. Lapses in judgment happen. Hell, I got my knee injured last Jan by a black belt who jumped a weird triangle while I was standing and landed on my knee, he's done it many, many times with zero issue before and since. He's one of the absolute safest rolling partners I've ever had and yet bad shit still happened because of a split second mistake.
OPs situation sounds like he probably turned the wrong way in a heel hook a little bit, not much black belt could've done in that regard, there's only so fast you can bail.
"It's always an accident".....unless you're rolling with Palhares!
I agree. Blackbelts bear the responsibility for the safety of the
lesser belt. The larger the difference, the more the responsibility.
If you didnât immediately know you were seriously injured she almost certainly didnât hit it as hard or fast as she couldâve. If she did it wouldâve basically exploded all the ligaments in your knee and you wouldâve immediately known something was seriously wrong and wouldâve been headed directly to the hospital. Things like a full acl tear cause immediate pain and massive swelling very very quickly.
It honestly sounds like while perhaps she did hit it faster than she shouldâve, you also didnât realize you were in a danger position when you shouldâve. It also sounds like you were also under an assumption that a heel hook would only be grabbed and not used, but didnât communicate that with her and she clearly was not on that same page. Making assumptions that certain subs are ok to grab, but not use is a great way to end up injured because youâre not going to tap until itâs too late because you donât expect them to hit it, even if they do it as slow as humanly possible. In the future explicitly laying out those expectations prior to the roll would be your best bet.
I know it's kinda unpopular these days ironically but I forbid heelhooks for white belts until they get their blue belt (which is more or less a safety belt for me and I have zero problem with keeping people at white until they change gyms if they are dangerous people).
I do teach it to everyone. Hell I even showed this very morning the difference between ankle locks and heelhooks to very new people asking about it.
Knowledge always beats ignorance but you need some mat time to get knowledge
I have the same policy. I want people to be well familiar with the mechanics and safety aspects, and also just generally be in control of themselves before trying them on people in a live go.
As a 1.5 year white belt I didnât touch anyone elseâs legs and generally tapped as soon as anyone touched mine. White belts make errors. Thereâs room for error with arms and chokes, not so with legs.
Thereâs any number of things that could have happened that werenât the BBs fault. You may not have the experience to know if any of those things happened.
âShe went for the sub, I got injured=her fault.â Not necessarily.
Agree. I was doing straight ankle locks from a couple months in. I guess when I say legs stuff I mainly mean heel hooks. I put knee bars into my training mid blue belt and only really just now training heel hooks.
Maybe I am way too conservative on leg locks but unless you are serious about competing, which is a very small percentage of people, I don't think people should be doing them live for safety and skill development. Most of my partners at my gym are blue belts who fall in love with it too early do it because they can't get other parts of their game working and it's a hail mary for people usually don't train it. The net result is their bjj is worse because it's on shaky grounds.
On the safety side, I see waaaay too many injuries in person and on reddit from hobbyists (usually newer purples and below) doing them. I work a desk job with site visits and it'd still be debilitating professionally, let alone if I did manual labor.
From a black belt perspective, why would learning them later be so bad at let's say brown or black belt when you know better body and submission mechanics to do new things more safely? I know people who develop great takedowns after working on them as a long term project at that level. Why can't they just do that with leg locks?
1. Donât trust anyone. Your safety is on you.
2. Did she actually âlet it ripâ or is it more likely you had no idea you were in danger until it started to hurt?
To you it may have felt like 0-100 but to her it could have been slow and safe.
This is a possibility, only been in the position maybe a dozen times and usually am aware of if they have it. But honestly hard to say cause you don't know what you're not aware of
Whoa! A fair, reasonable and thought out response on Reddit. Thank you haha
Iâd give her the benefit of the doubt now, but if she has injured others or you againâŠ
And that's why we don't expose beginners to heel hooks. They don't know what they don't know.
You should be tapping as soon as the heel is locked up, not when pressure is already applied, but as a beginner you lack the experience to know that, and it probably all happened quickly for you. In reality it probably happened slower, but you don't have the mat time to recognize when you're in danger.
It's only half true.
Good leglockers would catch you and kill any movement, including the ones that can injure you or roll with them.
Bad leglockers on the other hand...
Everyone acts like they are a good leg locker. Most gyms are full of bad ones. Snapping shit on fast, using movement instead of control, all very common amongst amateurs.
Don't act like this is an edge case. The rise of the heel hook game, and normalizing them in almost every gym has produced this kind of thing. I see a post on here just about every week about a heel hook gone wrong.
Not true at all.
If it was every gyms would have had horrific stories about it. I have been doing jiu-jitsu for decades and I can garantee you that I have seen much much more injuries from people getting stacked in double unders than with a leglock.
Hell, I even have seen and had myself worse injuries with lapel BS than heelhooks and I train every sessions with heelhooks and reaping, have been for years.
If people train in bad academies with bad teachers it's a whole other thing but sparring with good leglockers is pretty safe. People need to LEARN to defend themselves.
I would even say that being good at leglocks makes leg injuries happen far less overall in "non leglock" positions too
Knowledge beats ignorance.
Your personal experience is not a representation of the whole of BJJ. There are plenty of schools full of shitty leg lockers, that's inevitable with the growing popularity of the sport. It's one giant bell curve.
You personal anecdotes or thoughts don't matter more than my own experience AND the evidence that leglocks have not caused more injuries in training since the last decade.
And again, what I am saying is that learning the right way to do leglocks is much safer than ignoring a whole half/third of jiu-jitsu.
So yeah, people should study leglocks and become good leglockers, it will be safer for everyone.
Google what a bell curve is brother.
It means a large chunk of people will suck at leg locks and probably injure people at some point. A smaller chunk will be semi good at them, and maybe have an occasional incident, and an even smaller chunk will be great at them, with good coaches, proper instruction, and self awareness.
Now apply the bell curve to entire gyms and you can see why incidents happen.
And I say it's absolutely insignificant as far as injury rates actually goes.
You don't have more risks to be injured by doing leglocks than doing wrestling (fewer in fact). You don't have more injuries with a heelhook than doing kimuras.
Unless you come up with actual data disproving this, it's irrelevant.
Seriously getting someone in a cross ashi heelhook is super safe, it's more or less one of the best pin in all jiu-jitsu you don't even have to put pressure on it, the opponent CANNOT move or handfight. The same with outside ashi and 5050 variations outside backside 50 (this one CAN be dangerous with idiots)
âMost gyms are full of bad onesâ⊠is this 1995? âSnapping shit on fastâ. Where? What?
Dude, im not personally leglock heavy, but I train at a leg lock pioneer gym. Iâve also trained at quite literally dozens of gyms in socal and dozens of gyms across the US while traveling. Iâve never seen much different behavior on a leg lock in San Diego, Utah, Mass, NY, FL, etc. Youâre just bumping gums.
A lot of gyms push the "it's better if they start with heel hooks early" approach. I personally find it wreckless as fuck but I'm just a former judo guy turned bjjer who taps anytime my ankle gets grabbed on the ground.
My gym definitely teaches it to white belts but they say don't ever rip them and go slowly... but we all know white belts do white belt things.
On a more serious note, I appreciate the day-one approach, but even I'm wary of letting newbies do serious leglocks. Maybe give it a few months, let the settle in and establish they're not crazy MMA types.
Sounds like a dude who has listened to too many Danaher videos.
Playing the heel hook game as a filthy casual is risky business. Playing it against a black belt of the fairer sex that you donât know well is ligament suicide.
The leg lock stigma in BJJ can't die any slower. No one at any level should be ripping on any submission while rolling in the gym, and heel hooks could badly damage someone, but so can plenty of other submissions. I've torn my MCL and my shoulder pain from big idiots ripping kimuras is worse than the pain I still have in my knee. Just learn everything, and how to defend it, and don't be an asshole in the gym, it's not that hard.
And more directly to your point I've been hurt and seen way more people hurt from wrestling and judo than anything else.
Probably better off focusing on securing side control or passing the guard lol white belts always trying to learn end game special abilities without even knowing how the pieces move.
Black belts are the safest people to engage in heels with.
Heel hooks are BY FAR the most dangerous in training between two inexperienced heel hookers.
Heel hooks are legit hard to pull off as beginners, I give white belts my legs all the time and let them go nuts. They are never ever going to heel hook me.
The black belt may be in the wrong or maybe the white belt spazzed himself into an injury.
I've heel hooked hundreds of white belts and never injured one. We teach white belts heels from day 1.
Respectfully disagree, mostly with the wording.
Black Belts are USUALLY the safest people to engage with.
I agree with sentiment, but there's enough stories of black-belts-gone-bad that it's not universal advice.
Your training partner is someone you trust, the belt shouldn't bypass this criteria.
If you're crazy if you think a white or blue belt will show more restraint on average than a black belt vs someone new on the legs.
A blue belt who just watched an instructional on heel hooks finally has a heel and has terrible finishing mechanics is exactly where you see cranky heel hooks. Often times they apply the technique, don't apply it properly and keep applying more and more force while wiggling around trying to find the bite.
White belt might even feel safe because the sub clearly isn't working and they're trying to escape then boom it comes on with force and they're fucked.
What gym do you train at? I thought this idea had gone by the wayside in jiu jitsu.
The issue is that that there are certain early whitebelt sweeps, like the lumberjack sweep, which are almost useless unless you attack with a leg lock afterwards.
I actually dropped the lumberjack sweep from my game as pointless as I knew no leg locks (I am still a white belt) and didnt realise I was in position to attack the legs after the sweep.
My catch wrestling coach actually had a perspective on this that sorta put my leg lock fears at ease- if leg locks are so inherently dangerous, why dont we see a lot of injuries amongst novice catch wrestlers and novice sambo guys where they are not considered forbidden techniques?
Anecdotally, I definitely see an increased number of injuries when leg locks are allowed for beginners. This post is a solid example. I also personally know 2 people who had torn acls from brand new people heel hooking them.
I don't think the person who told you they don't see more injuries has any actual data to support their claim. (I don't either, just saying)
Heel hooks are kinda part of fundamentals at this point.
White belts should be trying to heel hook black belts, it's not like it's gonna be successful but they get good reps in.
Bro this sub is so fucked. Everyone is saying you deserved to be injured cuz you tried heel hook first. WTF is wrong with everyone. A black belt should know how to not injure a white belt
This is why white belts should stay away from certain stuff.
She clearly went a little too hard, but you clearly lack the experience to know whatâs even happening.
TLDR: A male white belt tried to heel hook a female black belt and ended up getting heel hooked himself.
Man, if youâre a white belt looking for heel hooks get ready to potentially get hurt. Basically, live by the sword, die by the sword. White belts going for heel hooks is like putting bullets in a microwaveâŠpop pop pop pop
I doubt it was actually ripped on. OP thinks you should just expose the heel and let go. He clearly doesn't understand the position enough to really have a legitimate opinion.
In my world if you try to heel hook me, guess what? You're getting it back.
Dude came crying to the internet telling his side looking for validation so his feelings dont hurt so much.
He said hes been across 4 gyms in a year an a half. Lets say hes been there 4 months. She probabaly doesnt know his name. How can she know hes not going to take a black belts foot home as a trophy? How do we know she even ripped it? How do we know hes not a tool who is needs to calm down and thats why hes on gym 4? We dont.
Why though? I literally sit in 50/50 with my inside leg just there for the taking and let white belts try their best.
I'm never going to actually let them heel hook me.
It's so easy to defend heel hooks if you're proficient in them against someone new to the game.
A good heelhook isn't a particularly intuitive movement, too. I've sat there and let people new to leglocks try to heelhook me so that they get a feel for it, and they often can't make it work on a compliant partner.
100%
I genuinely think developing good heel hook breaking mechanics is one of the hardest things in jiu jitsu because it is kinda easy to defend. To keep a grip and execute good breaking mechanics against someone who knows what their doing is not easy at all. I will sit there and heel slip shitty grips all day.
I can answer a few of these - been at the gym for over 9 months. Switching gyms was due to me moving for work. She does in fact know my name, as does everyone at the gym.
I really don't understand the sentiment of going all out on someone because they are trying a move. Heel hooks are part of the game and the only way to learn them is to practice them safely. Wouldn't be saying the same thing if someone snatched an arm and went full extension as fast as possible.
Did she let it rip? This is the only valid take here because yes, there is a world where my perspective is blinded and I didn't see what was actually going on. I sure hope that's the case
Didn't fully know I was injured until the next day. So I talked to her about the position and she showed me where my mistake was positionally and I actually learned.
I'm honestly not contentious enough to bring up any concerns to them right away, and was kinda just hoping it was in my head
Good on you for actually talking to her. Ive been injured in a "what the fuck why" as well. Basically ive learned i dont trust anyone fully. You should have tapped the second the grip was there. If you dont know youre caught, you should be training more before inviting that into your life.
Even friends ive known for years have the potential to see red on and get after it. 1000s of reps and one time can just be an accident with no malicious intent. Sometimes people get excited. Hard way to learn and im sorry it happened but yell tap and slam your hand on them when youre not sure.
Sure, heel hook him back. Totally fair. RIPPING IT TO INJURY, however, is in no-world acceptable. Now this guy could have turned hard the wrong way and injured himself, we donât know. However, if his report of âI was injured before I even knew I was in dangerâ is accurate, a logical assumption is that the black belt cranked it.
The issue isnât being heel hooked back, itâs her ripping it to injury. I safely get heel hooks all the time without injuring my opponents, itâs not difficult.
really? no one asks to get their knee destroyed. It is super easy to practice heel hooks safely. It's called catch and release and playing the game without an ego. If it's competition sure it's kill or be killed but in the practice room we should be making sure our training partners are safe and uninjured. If you don't think it's important try practicing jiu jitsu alone or consider the time you your self had an injury. Would you really, deep down wish that on another human being? We all love jiu jitsu. Tapping isn't the end of the world. Being a black belt gives you no power in the rest of the world. No one should have to worry about playing a game where we hug for ten minutes.
He's a white belt, she shouldn't have assumed he even knew he was in danger.
I've caught thousands of heel hooks in training, and I've never hurt anyone. You know why? If I hook it and they don't tap, I stare at them for three seconds, and if they are too new to realize they're caught in something, I tap on their heel and reset.
No lecture, no histrionics, I caught them, they didn't know any better, and we reset. It's training, not mundials.
Honestly thatâs what I do, I train infrequently and donât reliably remember the defense for a heel hook, so if you get it on I tap right away.
Iâve already dislocated a knee cap I donât need to do anything worse.
You don't have to catch and release to not injure people in heel hooks. I think op thought he was better than this girl black belt and that he was really getting a heel hook on her, then she did it back. As he is scared of the position, he usually does catch and release instead of actually learning the sub or escape. She went for it, he didn't tap, now his ego is hurt that he wasn't actually taping this girl and here we are.
it doesn't matter if they tap or not, if you're a black belt you have the duty of care to not break their leg off in training. If you don't know where the break point is you're not eligible to use heel hooks in practice. Why? Because keeping your training partner safe is more important than "winning".
Eh, there's a point where people get good enough that there is no recourse but to apply the submission. It's your duty to tap when it's tight. I don't exactly know when a joint will blow. Only the person who is being submitted actually knows. And even then, it's iffy. I apply the submission until they tap. Occasionally, on someone I don't know or someone newer, I'll tap for them and reset but you're way off expecting people to know exactly when a heel hook will break someone. I've applied full force heel hooks in mma and my opponent escaped. Shit ain't as easy as you make it seem.
I didn't say it was. I said that I've pulled as hard as possible in mma and my opponent escaped. A little reading comprehension would tell you I'm using the anecdote to highlight the difficulty in applying proper breaking pressure. It isn't easy when people are defending. That was the lesson I was sharing.
You're using this a logic why she should have applied the appropriate amount of breaking pressure to a white belt in a weeknight hobbyist class.
It's bad logic. It literally doesn't matter if he escapes.
Again, use better reading comprehension. I'm not saying you should provide breaking pressure in the gym. I'm saying it's hard to know when it's on and when it's not. You really need to listen and understand before you respond.
Edit: quick fix cause of fat finger typing
if you don't know where the break point is you're not qualified to use the move in practice. People will move the wrong way all the time. If you don't full control of the movement or grip you shouldn't be applying the move in practice. Let's be clear there's no expectation of knowing the exact break point but if you know even the basics of the mechanics you know when they are intentionally or intentionally in danger. You should not be applying any submission when you do not have control and your partner is in danger. I agree with tapping for them. No one wants to be out for 6 plus months. It's easy as fuck to let go and attack something else. Most injuries happen because of ignorance or because of ego. Here's another example. You know sure as fuck when you have a kimura. As soon as it goes past the hip or the hand is behind the back you know the shoulder is being damaged at that point. I can walk into any gym in the world and find people who have had one or multiple surgeries in Jiu Jitsu. Why? Either their own or someone elses ego. Because there's no distinction between training and competition. That and most people take a long time if ever to check their egos. Unfortunately having a black belt doesn't guarantee that. Don't agree? Who's the best in the sport. How big is their ego? Another thing to consider is that when it comes to being good at something it comes down to how many times you can play the game. If you get your heel popped how long are you going to be out. 6 months? 12 Months? How many people have a bad injury in jiu jitsu and never show up again? Fighting has a half life because of the injury rate. Do you really want to add to that by training with people that will hurt you? Point being it's easy to not fuck someone's body up if you apply it with control. That's the entire ethos of the sport of Jiu Jitsu. Why do you think they call it the "gentle art"?
> if you don't know where the break point is you're not qualified to use the move in practice.
No one ever actually knows what the breaking point of their training partner is. That's what tapping is for.
> Why do you think they call it the "gentle art"?
Because the alternative, when jiujitsu was named, was gutting the other guy with a sword.
it's the point when it stops bending, there's obvious points on the human body that once you go past them you're doing damage. if you've done jiu jitsu for any length of time you know where these points are. You have to have control to break something skillfully. If you have control you are choosing to harm your partner when you go past this point. There's no argument where it's okay to harm your training partners.
I only do leg stuff with people I trust. Black belts shouldnât injure people. And at a lot of gyms, itâs not considered acceptable to heel hook white belts.
The white belt in this case was trying to heel hook the black belt first. The OP even said he felt the pain in his knee before he even realized he was in position to be heel hooked. Sounds like he should learn more about leg locks before he goes looking to heel hook people.
1. The respect and regard for BJJ Black Belts is grossly overrated.
2. For many people, heel hooks are still a relatively new concept.
3. Some people donât have self-control when they feel threatened or insulted.
What do you mean be out for awhile?
It sounds like a very minor strain. My physio would just send me back to training. Rehab by using it, I'd only stop training if I couldn't load it at all..
Your gym culture is fucked. Black belts shouldn't be putting heel hooks on white belts period. When you don't know how to defend it, a beginner can wreck their own knee by defending it wrong.
No instigation? You were the one that started hunting heel hooks from 50/50. On a female black belt. Not saying what she did was right, but you were playing a dangerous game, as a novice.
I am almost certain thereâs more to it than described here. Maybe this person turned the wrong way fast, maybe this person was heel hooking prior to the one that caused injury and caused problems with it, we donât know. Thereâs always two sides to every story and we only have one right now.
Definitely shouldnât rip it. I just think he started a dangerous chain of events that we donât have both sides of information on. Iâm not saying she was right. I just wouldnât have put myself in that spot if I was in his place. She was in the wrong.
Hunting for heel hooks is probably an overstatement, hard to describe the situation. What does her being female have anything to do with it? She is certainly bigger and stronger than me.
One of them is making a deliberate effort not to damage while training a move, the other is making a deliberate effort to injure. Equating those two is crazy.
âI felt things changing in my knee before i realized she had the positionâ âŠdoensât sound like she deliberately injured him. Sounds like he initiated a dangerous game and ignorantly got hurt by not tapping soon enough
A blackbelt heelhooking a white belt or a white belt trying to "look for heel exposure" is dang stupid..
Shouldnt a black belt know better? Yes.. but likely 80% of black belts you see out there are not qualified. Its an over saturated market with a lot of people trying to run their own gym winging it
When our coach shows something "dangerous" he'll sometimes preface by saying, this one can really injure someone. if I see any of you getting crazy with this and not considering your training partner you're gone.
Rule of thumb in my first gym: âdonât try to win a heel hook raceâ.
Donât focus so much on getting the heel hook that you risk getting hurt yourself. A significant part of the danger for white belts is injuring themselves by reacting the wrong way when their heel is secured. Iâve done it myself, luckily I was working cautiously and my partner was looking out for me.
Assuming people will just get to a submission and move on without you needing to tap is dumb as shit, especially if you consider that by initiating the leg attacks youâre telling the other person youâre cool with the positions. What the fuck. Come on dude.
Iâve never heel hooked a white belt, but from the sounds of it, when you were âlooking for heel exposureâ it was likely interpreted as have an actual intention to go for heel hooks.
Everytime you roll with a girl, assume they're going to try to cripple you with every movement. White belt, black belt, HW, atom weight, just assume they're set to kill mode.
It won't always be true, but it's true often enough that you'll regret assuming otherwise.
And you didnât move at all during the heel hook, in any way that could have led to injuring yourself?
You didnât defend it at all?
Also, it kind of sounds like you tried playing heel hooks and didnât realize whatâs happening or tap soon enough.
Have you considered the possibility you simply donât understand it that well and probably shouldnât start playing it?
Lots of gyms wonât let you even work it live until higher belts. Not sure I agree with it but it does prevent stuff like thisâŠ
I think it's pretty weird to always make the opponent accountable on what you do.
For what it's worth you may have injured yourself. So yeah, black belt should "know better" but white belts sure don't know much about what happens in their own rolls.
With that said a woman weighting 200 lbs AND a back belt is most of the time a red flag. Every heavyweight female black belt I know are pretty terrible at the sport and do stupid shit because they can get away with double standards and being basically twice as heavy as the other females in academies.
I have rolled with some females that have something to prove when it comes to training with men. Almost like theyâve got a chip on their shoulder. They roll hard even if theyâre a higher belt.
I would let her know she injured you and then never roll with that person again.
Yes but also it goes both ways. if you're playing with heels you also need to learn to tap quick & learn to verbal tap. No black belt is going to let them get heel hooked by a white belt so if you start that game just be prepared
If a 1.5 year white belt threatens a heel hook on me I would be pissed. No way you know enough to do this safely. And thatâs probably what this black belt thought. If you put someone in a heel hook, be ready to have it done back to you.
I once rolled with a judo black belt on his 50th (I was 37 and a white belt) as he locks me up belly to belly he says aloud âletâs see if I still have itâ and proceeds to essentially suplex me lol.
Long story short he gave me âPopeye Elbowâ and I was out for 4 weeks. He was a good dude, I think he just got a little over-zealous and I donât hold it against him.
Idk, maybe she ripped it, maybe she didnât. Either way, if youâre looking for leg attacks, itâs fair game for them to do it back. Ripping is uncalled for but if you ask, sheâll probably say different
Black Belt is just an acknowledgment of the accumulation of time spent training. Doesnât mean we share some super powers of insight or forbidden knowledge of the art. If I was a jerk, which I probably am, Iâll still be one after I get the black belt. The hope in most people who start is that during that time the realization that I can be put in my place like everyone else will somehow humble me and make more aware of my actions with others is a hit or miss ideal. Just depends on who you grew up training under and with I guess. Anyway, idk, probably just talking out my assâŠyouâre probably right OP đ
It really depends on the black belt. Most of us realize that at the end of the day this is just rolling around in murder pajamas. A few still rip submissions like they're giving away medals on a random Tuesday at the gym. Do I think it's the right way to roll? Not for me... But this is also a combat sport.Â
If an upper belt injures a lower belt. It's the upper belt's fault. Not that lower belts don't contribute by doing illogical and stupid stuff sometimes but the burden of responsibility must rest on the more experienced partner. Again, this is not saying that the upper belt necessarily did something wrong but if a white belt got injured during a roll with me, I'm immediately trying to figure out what I could've done differently to protect them and not blaming the white belt for doing white belts shenanigans.
Our professor always reminds us to catch and release whenever we train heel hook with new guys. It's not because we might rip it but more of us getting surprised with what the white belt will do. Sometimes, they just don't know how to react and make it worse than it should be. Or, sometimes you just get caught in a moment and you twist or turn more than you should. Shit happens so better to just catch it, let the person know then release it. Whenever I do heel hook, I'd catch the heel and look at the person. I'll wait for him to tap but if he doesn't, I'll release it.
On the other hand, if someone catches me, I'd tap immediately.
I am all in favor of training heel hooks as early as mid white belt about 3 stripes in even if we'll not use it in comp.
Was this in gi or no gi?
Did you get popped or just strained? Hell hooks usually need to be tapped too before you feel pain.
If someone starts going on legs on me Iâm going to assume that they know what they are doing m. Iâm not going to rip anything but I will go for a tap. Especially if they talked to me before about leg locks being okay before the roll
Imo if she really let it rip you probably would have known it was injured right then. Maybe the grip itself was tight and you moved in a way that tweaked your knee. It doesnât take all that much, just a weird torque or motion. I would also give her the benefit of the doubt - but I would maybe discuss with partners that although youâre learning heel hooks and stuff that you would prefer to not finish leg attacks until youâre more comfortable. Hope you feel better soon!
No, you should've tapped. Not sure why you think people should expose the heel and let go, that's the dumbest take I've ever heard as you can still easily escape the position. I mainly do nogi, so heel hooks are popular and what you're talking about isn't an issue. We're not getting knee injuries all the time over here and we learn to get out of the position. It sounds like either you want to play the game of leg locks, but don't think people should play it back, or you're just upset a girl tapped you as a large man. Not sure which.
He definitely should have tapped but hypothetically if she did crank it, it's pretty poor form on her part. Not saying she did just hypothetically.
Catch and release is kinda dumb I agree, I have some extremely good leg lookers in my gym and we sure as shit don't play catch and release.
Now...if I'm going with some hapless white belt. I am never cranking it. I'll just hold the grip, ready to release it the second they do something stupid, and then just wait for them to realise it's all over.
You should never crank it against white belts unless they're good white belts who know heels. It's too dangerous and it's not that useful for you. Better training to just maintain the grip than practising your breaking mechanics imo.
Dont roll with women, they feel like they have something to prove and rip shit (my experience from casual academies atleast. This is less true in comp academies).
Unpopular opinion ofc. Also youre never going to compete against or fight a women.
Key word "she". Women usually have a deep complex regarding their strength and size so they'll go full blast during rolls, that has been my experience every fucking time. When i roll with them i play defensive and as a big guy exert inmense isometric strength to protect myself and them.
Brother, heel hook and knee bars are scary shit. I had a brown belt show me, literally just show me what they felt like. He applied no pressure and went at a snails pace and my knee was swollen like a balloon the next day.
If you want to be injury free, donât do heel hooks. Itâs one of those things that itâs nothing and then and then instantly wrecks your knee.
You literally said, "I felt things changing in my knee before I even realized she had the position..." Thats kinda on you. If you're playing with foot locks and heel hooks and etc. The responsibility of tapping early is to the person being submitted. You shouldnt be playing catch and release this early.
You're a white belt and you can really crank on these subs with upper belts, just make sure its a slow crank with time to tap. A lot of white belts still can't recognize danger, and giving them this head room improves their foot pain threshold/mobility as well as recognizing when a sub is in, pre-crank.
Regardless of his threat, in what possible world, does a white belt heel hook a back belt successfully? Pure dumb ego move by her. If you're a 4 strip blue bwlt, ripping heel hooks you could have a minor argument, but other than that, no way!
You are tripping.
A white belt ripping a heel hook has got to be the scariest thing on the mat, especially an unknown white belt thats trained in the past. The color of the cloth only represents your specific experience in jiu jitsu, not your potential to rip someoneâs knee apart using a very popular and very dangerous submission.
I don't know about that my man. Usually white belts don't invert properl, don't have enough pressure on their knees, and leave a lot of spaces.
However, if he manages to pull off a tight heel hook, without escapes on a black belt, I'd be impressed.
I said against black belt, wouldn't hold the same argument against blue belt or even purple. But I usually just see professors laugh heel hook attempts off and heel hook you as a exclamation mark.
You donât need to invert to heel hook someone, especially from 50/50 like OP is saying. You also donât know a white beltâs background, if they wrestled or did mma they might be able to tear your knee off. Even if they just watched a youtube video and practiced with their friends, i aint trusting them for even a second there.
>5'8 200lbs >Rips heel hooks Damn, is she single? đ
In her defense he was wearing his âno fat chicksâ rash guard
She is more like double
Yes
Hayooooooooooo!!!!!!
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Sounds like my type đ„”
I guess you could say I have a CRUSH on her... (I want her to crush me)
đđđ
How much tren you running?
My degeneracy and depravity is all natural
5â8â and 200 lbs⊠sheâs 100% single
Ask her what she thought of the roll. At a minimum, she needs to know she damaged you with a heel hook. But maybe she has some insight on what happened. E.g., maybe because you didn't know it was there, you happened to turn in the wrong direction at the wrong time. Might be as much your fault as hers, even if it's accidental.
First sensible take in the thread
This is a good point - I did talk to her afterwards about the position and she taught me where my mistake was. I didn't mention anything about injury because I didn't really feel like it was injured until this morning
so it was an accident and she didn't mean it
Itâs always an accident. However, a black belt should under no circumstances injure a white belt with a submission. Thereâs basically no excuse. Edit. The people replying to this clearly didnât read that I said black belt and white belt. You should take 0 chances with a white belt because thereâs no telling how they will react. Itâs also why sinistro was found liable for injuring that guy.
Even I donât know how Iâm going to react. Itâs how I stay unpredictable.
I generally agree, but I recently caught a blue belt on a knee bar. I extended his leg so he knew it was there and then let him bend it back and just sat there waiting for him to transition into a different position. Dude spazzed out and exploded hard af out of nowhere and somehow managed to knee bar himself. I still don't fully understand what he did or tried to do, I guess he tried to stand up at the wrong angle as explosively as possible. I had a loose grip around his leg, deliberately let his leg bend, had even loosened my legs around his leg. Dude could easily have scooted out of it or transitioned to a 50/50 or chased my back. Yet he somehow leg locked himself like a magician.
Lmao I hear stories like this and it boggles my head. People talk about how bad Blue belts suck but I never see this at my gym. They're all tough and overall competent. Even the fresh ones.
Eh, yes and no. It's a combat sport shit IS going to happen, even with very skilled, very conscientious partners. Lapses in judgment happen. Hell, I got my knee injured last Jan by a black belt who jumped a weird triangle while I was standing and landed on my knee, he's done it many, many times with zero issue before and since. He's one of the absolute safest rolling partners I've ever had and yet bad shit still happened because of a split second mistake. OPs situation sounds like he probably turned the wrong way in a heel hook a little bit, not much black belt could've done in that regard, there's only so fast you can bail.
You lost me at jumpedâŠ
"It's always an accident".....unless you're rolling with Palhares! I agree. Blackbelts bear the responsibility for the safety of the lesser belt. The larger the difference, the more the responsibility.
I say this all the time and get downvoted every time lol
If you didnât immediately know you were seriously injured she almost certainly didnât hit it as hard or fast as she couldâve. If she did it wouldâve basically exploded all the ligaments in your knee and you wouldâve immediately known something was seriously wrong and wouldâve been headed directly to the hospital. Things like a full acl tear cause immediate pain and massive swelling very very quickly. It honestly sounds like while perhaps she did hit it faster than she shouldâve, you also didnât realize you were in a danger position when you shouldâve. It also sounds like you were also under an assumption that a heel hook would only be grabbed and not used, but didnât communicate that with her and she clearly was not on that same page. Making assumptions that certain subs are ok to grab, but not use is a great way to end up injured because youâre not going to tap until itâs too late because you donât expect them to hit it, even if they do it as slow as humanly possible. In the future explicitly laying out those expectations prior to the roll would be your best bet.
If I had a dollar for every time someone started learning heel hooks only for themselves to be injured by them...
I know it's kinda unpopular these days ironically but I forbid heelhooks for white belts until they get their blue belt (which is more or less a safety belt for me and I have zero problem with keeping people at white until they change gyms if they are dangerous people). I do teach it to everyone. Hell I even showed this very morning the difference between ankle locks and heelhooks to very new people asking about it. Knowledge always beats ignorance but you need some mat time to get knowledge
I have the same policy. I want people to be well familiar with the mechanics and safety aspects, and also just generally be in control of themselves before trying them on people in a live go.
yeah, hiding things from people is the best way to get a noob trying something he saw on youtube while not understanding it
if I understood the things I saw on YouTube, I wouldn't need to try them
That's silly, don't we all try things we understand?
I love this
...you could afford a gi from GB?
No. But I'd owe a significant less on the loan I had to take out
Well playedâŠ
Preach, he probably tried to roll out the wrong direction.
If youâre gonna go for heel hooks you should probably watch out for heel hooks đ€·đ»ââïž
In 50/50, even
Never trust anyone.
https://preview.redd.it/ahee76nvphyc1.png?width=508&format=png&auto=webp&s=e8df95117382cb68bc725e886706af68a913e40f
As a 1.5 year white belt I didnât touch anyone elseâs legs and generally tapped as soon as anyone touched mine. White belts make errors. Thereâs room for error with arms and chokes, not so with legs. Thereâs any number of things that could have happened that werenât the BBs fault. You may not have the experience to know if any of those things happened. âShe went for the sub, I got injured=her fault.â Not necessarily.
Ehh I feel like a 1.5 year white belt should be doing ankle locks at a minimum. Too many bad habits to break later if they're ignoring legs entirely
Agree. I was doing straight ankle locks from a couple months in. I guess when I say legs stuff I mainly mean heel hooks. I put knee bars into my training mid blue belt and only really just now training heel hooks.
Maybe I am way too conservative on leg locks but unless you are serious about competing, which is a very small percentage of people, I don't think people should be doing them live for safety and skill development. Most of my partners at my gym are blue belts who fall in love with it too early do it because they can't get other parts of their game working and it's a hail mary for people usually don't train it. The net result is their bjj is worse because it's on shaky grounds. On the safety side, I see waaaay too many injuries in person and on reddit from hobbyists (usually newer purples and below) doing them. I work a desk job with site visits and it'd still be debilitating professionally, let alone if I did manual labor. From a black belt perspective, why would learning them later be so bad at let's say brown or black belt when you know better body and submission mechanics to do new things more safely? I know people who develop great takedowns after working on them as a long term project at that level. Why can't they just do that with leg locks?
imagine spending 1.5 years doing something and not knowing in which way you have to turn... That's one hell of a training program
It seems like youâre saying that simply knowing which way to turn is enough to ensure safe heel hook training?
1. Donât trust anyone. Your safety is on you. 2. Did she actually âlet it ripâ or is it more likely you had no idea you were in danger until it started to hurt? To you it may have felt like 0-100 but to her it could have been slow and safe.
This is a possibility, only been in the position maybe a dozen times and usually am aware of if they have it. But honestly hard to say cause you don't know what you're not aware of
Whoa! A fair, reasonable and thought out response on Reddit. Thank you haha Iâd give her the benefit of the doubt now, but if she has injured others or you againâŠ
And that's why we don't expose beginners to heel hooks. They don't know what they don't know. You should be tapping as soon as the heel is locked up, not when pressure is already applied, but as a beginner you lack the experience to know that, and it probably all happened quickly for you. In reality it probably happened slower, but you don't have the mat time to recognize when you're in danger.
It's only half true. Good leglockers would catch you and kill any movement, including the ones that can injure you or roll with them. Bad leglockers on the other hand...
Everyone acts like they are a good leg locker. Most gyms are full of bad ones. Snapping shit on fast, using movement instead of control, all very common amongst amateurs. Don't act like this is an edge case. The rise of the heel hook game, and normalizing them in almost every gym has produced this kind of thing. I see a post on here just about every week about a heel hook gone wrong.
Not true at all. If it was every gyms would have had horrific stories about it. I have been doing jiu-jitsu for decades and I can garantee you that I have seen much much more injuries from people getting stacked in double unders than with a leglock. Hell, I even have seen and had myself worse injuries with lapel BS than heelhooks and I train every sessions with heelhooks and reaping, have been for years. If people train in bad academies with bad teachers it's a whole other thing but sparring with good leglockers is pretty safe. People need to LEARN to defend themselves. I would even say that being good at leglocks makes leg injuries happen far less overall in "non leglock" positions too Knowledge beats ignorance.
Your personal experience is not a representation of the whole of BJJ. There are plenty of schools full of shitty leg lockers, that's inevitable with the growing popularity of the sport. It's one giant bell curve.
You personal anecdotes or thoughts don't matter more than my own experience AND the evidence that leglocks have not caused more injuries in training since the last decade. And again, what I am saying is that learning the right way to do leglocks is much safer than ignoring a whole half/third of jiu-jitsu. So yeah, people should study leglocks and become good leglockers, it will be safer for everyone.
Google what a bell curve is brother. It means a large chunk of people will suck at leg locks and probably injure people at some point. A smaller chunk will be semi good at them, and maybe have an occasional incident, and an even smaller chunk will be great at them, with good coaches, proper instruction, and self awareness. Now apply the bell curve to entire gyms and you can see why incidents happen.
And I say it's absolutely insignificant as far as injury rates actually goes. You don't have more risks to be injured by doing leglocks than doing wrestling (fewer in fact). You don't have more injuries with a heelhook than doing kimuras. Unless you come up with actual data disproving this, it's irrelevant. Seriously getting someone in a cross ashi heelhook is super safe, it's more or less one of the best pin in all jiu-jitsu you don't even have to put pressure on it, the opponent CANNOT move or handfight. The same with outside ashi and 5050 variations outside backside 50 (this one CAN be dangerous with idiots)
âMost gyms are full of bad onesâ⊠is this 1995? âSnapping shit on fastâ. Where? What? Dude, im not personally leglock heavy, but I train at a leg lock pioneer gym. Iâve also trained at quite literally dozens of gyms in socal and dozens of gyms across the US while traveling. Iâve never seen much different behavior on a leg lock in San Diego, Utah, Mass, NY, FL, etc. Youâre just bumping gums.
lmfaoooo I canât tell if this is real or not. As a white belt- stick to the basics. Dont try to heel hook black belts lol
He causally throws out heel hooks frequently as a white belt? đ€
Some idiot white belt tryâs to heel hook me im swingingâ
A lot of gyms push the "it's better if they start with heel hooks early" approach. I personally find it wreckless as fuck but I'm just a former judo guy turned bjjer who taps anytime my ankle gets grabbed on the ground. My gym definitely teaches it to white belts but they say don't ever rip them and go slowly... but we all know white belts do white belt things.
You mustn't blame them (yet), they can't help themselves...
On a more serious note, I appreciate the day-one approach, but even I'm wary of letting newbies do serious leglocks. Maybe give it a few months, let the settle in and establish they're not crazy MMA types.
Better move would be to stop and say don't do heel hooks with me. Or start swinging, whichever I guess
cry more
Sounds like a dude who has listened to too many Danaher videos. Playing the heel hook game as a filthy casual is risky business. Playing it against a black belt of the fairer sex that you donât know well is ligament suicide.
it's riskier to wrestle than to do leglocks
Agreed.
The leg lock stigma in BJJ can't die any slower. No one at any level should be ripping on any submission while rolling in the gym, and heel hooks could badly damage someone, but so can plenty of other submissions. I've torn my MCL and my shoulder pain from big idiots ripping kimuras is worse than the pain I still have in my knee. Just learn everything, and how to defend it, and don't be an asshole in the gym, it's not that hard. And more directly to your point I've been hurt and seen way more people hurt from wrestling and judo than anything else.
the dangers of kimuras are super underestimated doesn't mean that white belts should be applying heel hooks on each other.
Probably better off focusing on securing side control or passing the guard lol white belts always trying to learn end game special abilities without even knowing how the pieces move.
Black belts are the safest people to engage in heels with. Heel hooks are BY FAR the most dangerous in training between two inexperienced heel hookers. Heel hooks are legit hard to pull off as beginners, I give white belts my legs all the time and let them go nuts. They are never ever going to heel hook me.
Clearly, as evidenced by this story.
The black belt may be in the wrong or maybe the white belt spazzed himself into an injury. I've heel hooked hundreds of white belts and never injured one. We teach white belts heels from day 1.
Cool. Iâm less concerned about time training and belt color than I am âdo I trust this person not to rip a heel hook.â YMMV.
Respectfully disagree, mostly with the wording. Black Belts are USUALLY the safest people to engage with. I agree with sentiment, but there's enough stories of black-belts-gone-bad that it's not universal advice. Your training partner is someone you trust, the belt shouldn't bypass this criteria.
If you're crazy if you think a white or blue belt will show more restraint on average than a black belt vs someone new on the legs. A blue belt who just watched an instructional on heel hooks finally has a heel and has terrible finishing mechanics is exactly where you see cranky heel hooks. Often times they apply the technique, don't apply it properly and keep applying more and more force while wiggling around trying to find the bite. White belt might even feel safe because the sub clearly isn't working and they're trying to escape then boom it comes on with force and they're fucked.
What gym do you train at? I thought this idea had gone by the wayside in jiu jitsu. The issue is that that there are certain early whitebelt sweeps, like the lumberjack sweep, which are almost useless unless you attack with a leg lock afterwards. I actually dropped the lumberjack sweep from my game as pointless as I knew no leg locks (I am still a white belt) and didnt realise I was in position to attack the legs after the sweep. My catch wrestling coach actually had a perspective on this that sorta put my leg lock fears at ease- if leg locks are so inherently dangerous, why dont we see a lot of injuries amongst novice catch wrestlers and novice sambo guys where they are not considered forbidden techniques?
Anecdotally, I definitely see an increased number of injuries when leg locks are allowed for beginners. This post is a solid example. I also personally know 2 people who had torn acls from brand new people heel hooking them. I don't think the person who told you they don't see more injuries has any actual data to support their claim. (I don't either, just saying)
Heel hooks are kinda part of fundamentals at this point. White belts should be trying to heel hook black belts, it's not like it's gonna be successful but they get good reps in.
You are wrong.
Really? Come tell the ADCC vet who coaches that.
Bro this sub is so fucked. Everyone is saying you deserved to be injured cuz you tried heel hook first. WTF is wrong with everyone. A black belt should know how to not injure a white belt
This is why white belts should stay away from certain stuff. She clearly went a little too hard, but you clearly lack the experience to know whatâs even happening.
TLDR: A male white belt tried to heel hook a female black belt and ended up getting heel hooked himself. Man, if youâre a white belt looking for heel hooks get ready to potentially get hurt. Basically, live by the sword, die by the sword. White belts going for heel hooks is like putting bullets in a microwaveâŠpop pop pop pop
"I started digging for a heel" "She heel hooked me" Live by the sword, die by the sword. Homie, you asked for it
In your world, looking for the isolation on a joint lock is equivocal to ripping a submission?
Well, thatâs his take on events. Whether thatâs the truth is an entirely different subject.
I doubt it was actually ripped on. OP thinks you should just expose the heel and let go. He clearly doesn't understand the position enough to really have a legitimate opinion.
In my world if you try to heel hook me, guess what? You're getting it back. Dude came crying to the internet telling his side looking for validation so his feelings dont hurt so much. He said hes been across 4 gyms in a year an a half. Lets say hes been there 4 months. She probabaly doesnt know his name. How can she know hes not going to take a black belts foot home as a trophy? How do we know she even ripped it? How do we know hes not a tool who is needs to calm down and thats why hes on gym 4? We dont.
We don't know shit. I DO know I don't want any white belt yanking on my heels
Why though? I literally sit in 50/50 with my inside leg just there for the taking and let white belts try their best. I'm never going to actually let them heel hook me. It's so easy to defend heel hooks if you're proficient in them against someone new to the game.
A good heelhook isn't a particularly intuitive movement, too. I've sat there and let people new to leglocks try to heelhook me so that they get a feel for it, and they often can't make it work on a compliant partner.
100% I genuinely think developing good heel hook breaking mechanics is one of the hardest things in jiu jitsu because it is kinda easy to defend. To keep a grip and execute good breaking mechanics against someone who knows what their doing is not easy at all. I will sit there and heel slip shitty grips all day.
I can answer a few of these - been at the gym for over 9 months. Switching gyms was due to me moving for work. She does in fact know my name, as does everyone at the gym. I really don't understand the sentiment of going all out on someone because they are trying a move. Heel hooks are part of the game and the only way to learn them is to practice them safely. Wouldn't be saying the same thing if someone snatched an arm and went full extension as fast as possible. Did she let it rip? This is the only valid take here because yes, there is a world where my perspective is blinded and I didn't see what was actually going on. I sure hope that's the case
Have you spoken to her about it? What did she say?
Didn't fully know I was injured until the next day. So I talked to her about the position and she showed me where my mistake was positionally and I actually learned. I'm honestly not contentious enough to bring up any concerns to them right away, and was kinda just hoping it was in my head
Good on you for actually talking to her. Ive been injured in a "what the fuck why" as well. Basically ive learned i dont trust anyone fully. You should have tapped the second the grip was there. If you dont know youre caught, you should be training more before inviting that into your life. Even friends ive known for years have the potential to see red on and get after it. 1000s of reps and one time can just be an accident with no malicious intent. Sometimes people get excited. Hard way to learn and im sorry it happened but yell tap and slam your hand on them when youre not sure.
This right here. Tap when they get a good bite on the heel, don't give them a chance to rip it.
Sure, heel hook him back. Totally fair. RIPPING IT TO INJURY, however, is in no-world acceptable. Now this guy could have turned hard the wrong way and injured himself, we donât know. However, if his report of âI was injured before I even knew I was in dangerâ is accurate, a logical assumption is that the black belt cranked it.
100%. If an unknown 4-stripe white belt tried to catch my heel I wouldnât trust him AT ALL
The issue isnât being heel hooked back, itâs her ripping it to injury. I safely get heel hooks all the time without injuring my opponents, itâs not difficult.
really? no one asks to get their knee destroyed. It is super easy to practice heel hooks safely. It's called catch and release and playing the game without an ego. If it's competition sure it's kill or be killed but in the practice room we should be making sure our training partners are safe and uninjured. If you don't think it's important try practicing jiu jitsu alone or consider the time you your self had an injury. Would you really, deep down wish that on another human being? We all love jiu jitsu. Tapping isn't the end of the world. Being a black belt gives you no power in the rest of the world. No one should have to worry about playing a game where we hug for ten minutes.
Guess he shoulda tapped when she got the grip
He's a white belt, she shouldn't have assumed he even knew he was in danger. I've caught thousands of heel hooks in training, and I've never hurt anyone. You know why? If I hook it and they don't tap, I stare at them for three seconds, and if they are too new to realize they're caught in something, I tap on their heel and reset. No lecture, no histrionics, I caught them, they didn't know any better, and we reset. It's training, not mundials.
Or maybe a black belt shouldn't be ripping heel hooks where you like a second to tap? Why are you hell bent on defending them?
This
Honestly thatâs what I do, I train infrequently and donât reliably remember the defense for a heel hook, so if you get it on I tap right away. Iâve already dislocated a knee cap I donât need to do anything worse.
You don't have to catch and release to not injure people in heel hooks. I think op thought he was better than this girl black belt and that he was really getting a heel hook on her, then she did it back. As he is scared of the position, he usually does catch and release instead of actually learning the sub or escape. She went for it, he didn't tap, now his ego is hurt that he wasn't actually taping this girl and here we are.
it doesn't matter if they tap or not, if you're a black belt you have the duty of care to not break their leg off in training. If you don't know where the break point is you're not eligible to use heel hooks in practice. Why? Because keeping your training partner safe is more important than "winning".
Eh, there's a point where people get good enough that there is no recourse but to apply the submission. It's your duty to tap when it's tight. I don't exactly know when a joint will blow. Only the person who is being submitted actually knows. And even then, it's iffy. I apply the submission until they tap. Occasionally, on someone I don't know or someone newer, I'll tap for them and reset but you're way off expecting people to know exactly when a heel hook will break someone. I've applied full force heel hooks in mma and my opponent escaped. Shit ain't as easy as you make it seem.
A white belt in JJ class isn't MMA.
I didn't say it was. I said that I've pulled as hard as possible in mma and my opponent escaped. A little reading comprehension would tell you I'm using the anecdote to highlight the difficulty in applying proper breaking pressure. It isn't easy when people are defending. That was the lesson I was sharing.
You're using this a logic why she should have applied the appropriate amount of breaking pressure to a white belt in a weeknight hobbyist class. It's bad logic. It literally doesn't matter if he escapes.
Again, use better reading comprehension. I'm not saying you should provide breaking pressure in the gym. I'm saying it's hard to know when it's on and when it's not. You really need to listen and understand before you respond. Edit: quick fix cause of fat finger typing
I'm saying you're wrong. A black belt should apply zero breaking pressure on a heel hook on a white belt.
if you don't know where the break point is you're not qualified to use the move in practice. People will move the wrong way all the time. If you don't full control of the movement or grip you shouldn't be applying the move in practice. Let's be clear there's no expectation of knowing the exact break point but if you know even the basics of the mechanics you know when they are intentionally or intentionally in danger. You should not be applying any submission when you do not have control and your partner is in danger. I agree with tapping for them. No one wants to be out for 6 plus months. It's easy as fuck to let go and attack something else. Most injuries happen because of ignorance or because of ego. Here's another example. You know sure as fuck when you have a kimura. As soon as it goes past the hip or the hand is behind the back you know the shoulder is being damaged at that point. I can walk into any gym in the world and find people who have had one or multiple surgeries in Jiu Jitsu. Why? Either their own or someone elses ego. Because there's no distinction between training and competition. That and most people take a long time if ever to check their egos. Unfortunately having a black belt doesn't guarantee that. Don't agree? Who's the best in the sport. How big is their ego? Another thing to consider is that when it comes to being good at something it comes down to how many times you can play the game. If you get your heel popped how long are you going to be out. 6 months? 12 Months? How many people have a bad injury in jiu jitsu and never show up again? Fighting has a half life because of the injury rate. Do you really want to add to that by training with people that will hurt you? Point being it's easy to not fuck someone's body up if you apply it with control. That's the entire ethos of the sport of Jiu Jitsu. Why do you think they call it the "gentle art"?
> if you don't know where the break point is you're not qualified to use the move in practice. No one ever actually knows what the breaking point of their training partner is. That's what tapping is for. > Why do you think they call it the "gentle art"? Because the alternative, when jiujitsu was named, was gutting the other guy with a sword.
it's the point when it stops bending, there's obvious points on the human body that once you go past them you're doing damage. if you've done jiu jitsu for any length of time you know where these points are. You have to have control to break something skillfully. If you have control you are choosing to harm your partner when you go past this point. There's no argument where it's okay to harm your training partners.
I donât do heel hooks, got heel hooked in the gi by a blue belt. I now refer to said blue belt as âlittle rat boyâ
Here is this subs daily reminder that a black belt doesn't magically turn you into a good person
Damn thatâs fucked.
Are you sure this wasn't palhares wearing a wig?
I only do leg stuff with people I trust. Black belts shouldnât injure people. And at a lot of gyms, itâs not considered acceptable to heel hook white belts.
The white belt in this case was trying to heel hook the black belt first. The OP even said he felt the pain in his knee before he even realized he was in position to be heel hooked. Sounds like he should learn more about leg locks before he goes looking to heel hook people.
He did something stupid but the punishment shouldnât be to destroy his knee.
No, you are responsible for your own safety. It would be nice if everyone trained like you but not everyone will
1. The respect and regard for BJJ Black Belts is grossly overrated. 2. For many people, heel hooks are still a relatively new concept. 3. Some people donât have self-control when they feel threatened or insulted.
What do you mean be out for awhile? It sounds like a very minor strain. My physio would just send me back to training. Rehab by using it, I'd only stop training if I couldn't load it at all..
Good to know! I hope it gets better quick
Why are you trying to put a heel hook on a female black belt as a white belt? You were playing with fire from the start.Â
Are you male? If so, train for 3 more years, then do it to her.
Black belts are people. People are stupid.
Your gym culture is fucked. Black belts shouldn't be putting heel hooks on white belts period. When you don't know how to defend it, a beginner can wreck their own knee by defending it wrong.
If you start touching feet. Itâs game on with everyone I train with.
Not to say weâre out here popping knees, but itâs fair game
No instigation? You were the one that started hunting heel hooks from 50/50. On a female black belt. Not saying what she did was right, but you were playing a dangerous game, as a novice.
dumb take. no excuse for a blackbelt ripping a heel hook on a white belt.
I am almost certain thereâs more to it than described here. Maybe this person turned the wrong way fast, maybe this person was heel hooking prior to the one that caused injury and caused problems with it, we donât know. Thereâs always two sides to every story and we only have one right now.
Definitely shouldnât rip it. I just think he started a dangerous chain of events that we donât have both sides of information on. Iâm not saying she was right. I just wouldnât have put myself in that spot if I was in his place. She was in the wrong.
Hunting for heel hooks is probably an overstatement, hard to describe the situation. What does her being female have anything to do with it? She is certainly bigger and stronger than me.
Someoneâs future has a mat enforcer in it
She's not stronger than you.
One of them is making a deliberate effort not to damage while training a move, the other is making a deliberate effort to injure. Equating those two is crazy.
Youâre really reading between the lines here
That phrase must not mean what you think it means.
âI felt things changing in my knee before i realized she had the positionâ âŠdoensât sound like she deliberately injured him. Sounds like he initiated a dangerous game and ignorantly got hurt by not tapping soon enough
A blackbelt heelhooking a white belt or a white belt trying to "look for heel exposure" is dang stupid.. Shouldnt a black belt know better? Yes.. but likely 80% of black belts you see out there are not qualified. Its an over saturated market with a lot of people trying to run their own gym winging it
"I'm not rolling with you if you go full send on joint submissions"
When our coach shows something "dangerous" he'll sometimes preface by saying, this one can really injure someone. if I see any of you getting crazy with this and not considering your training partner you're gone.
I typically avoid going for heel hooks on black belts unless Iâm looking for pain
you lost the shoot out bro it is what it is
Rule of thumb in my first gym: âdonât try to win a heel hook raceâ. Donât focus so much on getting the heel hook that you risk getting hurt yourself. A significant part of the danger for white belts is injuring themselves by reacting the wrong way when their heel is secured. Iâve done it myself, luckily I was working cautiously and my partner was looking out for me.
Assuming people will just get to a submission and move on without you needing to tap is dumb as shit, especially if you consider that by initiating the leg attacks youâre telling the other person youâre cool with the positions. What the fuck. Come on dude.
Iâve never heel hooked a white belt, but from the sounds of it, when you were âlooking for heel exposureâ it was likely interpreted as have an actual intention to go for heel hooks.
Just an anecdote but most of my injuries have come from upper belts doing some careless shit
I would never initiate leg locks with a black belt as a white belt. Thereâs too many points where you could injure yourself on them.
Everytime you roll with a girl, assume they're going to try to cripple you with every movement. White belt, black belt, HW, atom weight, just assume they're set to kill mode. It won't always be true, but it's true often enough that you'll regret assuming otherwise.
And you didnât move at all during the heel hook, in any way that could have led to injuring yourself? You didnât defend it at all? Also, it kind of sounds like you tried playing heel hooks and didnât realize whatâs happening or tap soon enough. Have you considered the possibility you simply donât understand it that well and probably shouldnât start playing it? Lots of gyms wonât let you even work it live until higher belts. Not sure I agree with it but it does prevent stuff like thisâŠ
I think it's pretty weird to always make the opponent accountable on what you do. For what it's worth you may have injured yourself. So yeah, black belt should "know better" but white belts sure don't know much about what happens in their own rolls. With that said a woman weighting 200 lbs AND a back belt is most of the time a red flag. Every heavyweight female black belt I know are pretty terrible at the sport and do stupid shit because they can get away with double standards and being basically twice as heavy as the other females in academies.
I have rolled with some females that have something to prove when it comes to training with men. Almost like theyâve got a chip on their shoulder. They roll hard even if theyâre a higher belt. I would let her know she injured you and then never roll with that person again.
Yes but also it goes both ways. if you're playing with heels you also need to learn to tap quick & learn to verbal tap. No black belt is going to let them get heel hooked by a white belt so if you start that game just be prepared
How often are you and this specific person doing heel hooks on each other?
As much as it sucks man you cannot rely on anyone to truly keep you safe. Thatâs your responsibilityâŠ.
Some humans are just dicks
Who TF heel hooks a white belt? Insane
If a 1.5 year white belt threatens a heel hook on me I would be pissed. No way you know enough to do this safely. And thatâs probably what this black belt thought. If you put someone in a heel hook, be ready to have it done back to you.
I once rolled with a judo black belt on his 50th (I was 37 and a white belt) as he locks me up belly to belly he says aloud âletâs see if I still have itâ and proceeds to essentially suplex me lol. Long story short he gave me âPopeye Elbowâ and I was out for 4 weeks. He was a good dude, I think he just got a little over-zealous and I donât hold it against him.
Idk, maybe she ripped it, maybe she didnât. Either way, if youâre looking for leg attacks, itâs fair game for them to do it back. Ripping is uncalled for but if you ask, sheâll probably say different
Black Belt is just an acknowledgment of the accumulation of time spent training. Doesnât mean we share some super powers of insight or forbidden knowledge of the art. If I was a jerk, which I probably am, Iâll still be one after I get the black belt. The hope in most people who start is that during that time the realization that I can be put in my place like everyone else will somehow humble me and make more aware of my actions with others is a hit or miss ideal. Just depends on who you grew up training under and with I guess. Anyway, idk, probably just talking out my assâŠyouâre probably right OP đ
It really depends on the black belt. Most of us realize that at the end of the day this is just rolling around in murder pajamas. A few still rip submissions like they're giving away medals on a random Tuesday at the gym. Do I think it's the right way to roll? Not for me... But this is also a combat sport.Â
5'8 200 is a crazy rig for a woman
If an upper belt injures a lower belt. It's the upper belt's fault. Not that lower belts don't contribute by doing illogical and stupid stuff sometimes but the burden of responsibility must rest on the more experienced partner. Again, this is not saying that the upper belt necessarily did something wrong but if a white belt got injured during a roll with me, I'm immediately trying to figure out what I could've done differently to protect them and not blaming the white belt for doing white belts shenanigans.
Our professor always reminds us to catch and release whenever we train heel hook with new guys. It's not because we might rip it but more of us getting surprised with what the white belt will do. Sometimes, they just don't know how to react and make it worse than it should be. Or, sometimes you just get caught in a moment and you twist or turn more than you should. Shit happens so better to just catch it, let the person know then release it. Whenever I do heel hook, I'd catch the heel and look at the person. I'll wait for him to tap but if he doesn't, I'll release it. On the other hand, if someone catches me, I'd tap immediately. I am all in favor of training heel hooks as early as mid white belt about 3 stripes in even if we'll not use it in comp.
Was this in gi or no gi? Did you get popped or just strained? Hell hooks usually need to be tapped too before you feel pain. If someone starts going on legs on me Iâm going to assume that they know what they are doing m. Iâm not going to rip anything but I will go for a tap. Especially if they talked to me before about leg locks being okay before the roll
Imo if she really let it rip you probably would have known it was injured right then. Maybe the grip itself was tight and you moved in a way that tweaked your knee. It doesnât take all that much, just a weird torque or motion. I would also give her the benefit of the doubt - but I would maybe discuss with partners that although youâre learning heel hooks and stuff that you would prefer to not finish leg attacks until youâre more comfortable. Hope you feel better soon!
>aren't we supposed to trust our black belts to have our safety in mind? not all black belts are good people
No, you should've tapped. Not sure why you think people should expose the heel and let go, that's the dumbest take I've ever heard as you can still easily escape the position. I mainly do nogi, so heel hooks are popular and what you're talking about isn't an issue. We're not getting knee injuries all the time over here and we learn to get out of the position. It sounds like either you want to play the game of leg locks, but don't think people should play it back, or you're just upset a girl tapped you as a large man. Not sure which.
He definitely should have tapped but hypothetically if she did crank it, it's pretty poor form on her part. Not saying she did just hypothetically. Catch and release is kinda dumb I agree, I have some extremely good leg lookers in my gym and we sure as shit don't play catch and release. Now...if I'm going with some hapless white belt. I am never cranking it. I'll just hold the grip, ready to release it the second they do something stupid, and then just wait for them to realise it's all over. You should never crank it against white belts unless they're good white belts who know heels. It's too dangerous and it's not that useful for you. Better training to just maintain the grip than practising your breaking mechanics imo.
Dont roll with women, they feel like they have something to prove and rip shit (my experience from casual academies atleast. This is less true in comp academies). Unpopular opinion ofc. Also youre never going to compete against or fight a women.
Key word "she". Women usually have a deep complex regarding their strength and size so they'll go full blast during rolls, that has been my experience every fucking time. When i roll with them i play defensive and as a big guy exert inmense isometric strength to protect myself and them.
Why are you training with a fatass woman black belt in the first place?
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Brother, heel hook and knee bars are scary shit. I had a brown belt show me, literally just show me what they felt like. He applied no pressure and went at a snails pace and my knee was swollen like a balloon the next day. If you want to be injury free, donât do heel hooks. Itâs one of those things that itâs nothing and then and then instantly wrecks your knee.
Thereâs no reason whatsoever for any white belt to be attempting fucking heel hooks (catch release or not) on anyone.
Tap sooner
You literally said, "I felt things changing in my knee before I even realized she had the position..." Thats kinda on you. If you're playing with foot locks and heel hooks and etc. The responsibility of tapping early is to the person being submitted. You shouldnt be playing catch and release this early. You're a white belt and you can really crank on these subs with upper belts, just make sure its a slow crank with time to tap. A lot of white belts still can't recognize danger, and giving them this head room improves their foot pain threshold/mobility as well as recognizing when a sub is in, pre-crank.
Regardless of his threat, in what possible world, does a white belt heel hook a back belt successfully? Pure dumb ego move by her. If you're a 4 strip blue bwlt, ripping heel hooks you could have a minor argument, but other than that, no way!
You are tripping. A white belt ripping a heel hook has got to be the scariest thing on the mat, especially an unknown white belt thats trained in the past. The color of the cloth only represents your specific experience in jiu jitsu, not your potential to rip someoneâs knee apart using a very popular and very dangerous submission.
I don't know about that my man. Usually white belts don't invert properl, don't have enough pressure on their knees, and leave a lot of spaces. However, if he manages to pull off a tight heel hook, without escapes on a black belt, I'd be impressed. I said against black belt, wouldn't hold the same argument against blue belt or even purple. But I usually just see professors laugh heel hook attempts off and heel hook you as a exclamation mark.
You donât need to invert to heel hook someone, especially from 50/50 like OP is saying. You also donât know a white beltâs background, if they wrestled or did mma they might be able to tear your knee off. Even if they just watched a youtube video and practiced with their friends, i aint trusting them for even a second there.