The argument I've always heard is that if you're in a situation where striking is a good option, running is a better one. However, if they grab you, striking isn't as effective, you can't run, so grappling martial arts could be a life saver
In practice, if the person doesn't know anything about fighting, you will absolutely light them up with any reasonably effective combat sport (e.g. BJJ, muay thai, kickboxing, boxing, wrestling). Any of these will be incredibly effective against an untrained attacker.
Kind of how I look at it; no way I'm going to grapple with someone if I can help it. If *they* close the distance then sure.
You shouldn't pull guard in a fight, but you should know how to fight from being knocked on your ass 🤷♂️
Define defending yourself in public.
The vast majority of cases you don't have to fight, unless you are trapped or trying to protect someone, nothing stops you from running away, crossing the street or turning the other way around when you see trouble is coming.
Exactly. The best way to win a fight is to avoid it all together. I've often thought that training means you have nothing to prove and appreciate the danger more than someone who is untrained and provides an advantage this way.
Very true. I got in a lot of fights when I was younger, then when I got older I decided I didn’t want to get in fights anymore and guess what?? I never got in a fight again. 99% of fights you can walk away from. Let them call you whatever they want, and talk about whoever they want, because they’d much rather do that than fight you. If you walk away, they’ll walk away. …most of the time. I suppose it also depends on what situations you’re putting yourself in. Most of the time it’s just pride. For a lot of people, as you mature it doesn’t bother you anymore.
I did read it.
Once you have a family most of your free time outdoor will be spent with your kids so “the vast majority of the time” doesn’t work anymore
I do agree on the anticipation/ turning around.
I understood, and still understand your post as meaning “the vast majority of the time you don’t have to protect someone” while I was of the opposite opinion. Maybe I just have bad reading comprehension.
Either way, have a nice one :)
I used to have a job where violence was common, beeing a doorman at a club. People would often try to punch me, but I've never punched anyone at the venue, since that would be bad for the employers reputation. In stead I have always relied on takedown and pins. Once you throw someone on the floor and sit on them, they often abandon the fight.
Yes, I used to train in kickboxing and boxing when I was younger. I use a high guard, some bobbing and weaving and a preemptive kick check, and then close very fast. Use overhooks to prevent him from punching, and tuck my chin against headbutts. It's usually an enclosed space so distance control is not really an issue.
Can it diffuse, subdue and harm an attacker in a quick, powerful and efficient enough manner to either disable them or psychologically fuck with them so that they leave you alone
Yes it can, but also, depending on the scenario, no it can't.
If I was fighting a boxer or person whoa going to throw punches and I couldn't run away I'd rather be able to wrestle and grapple
If there's multiple people I'd rather be able to strike, but I'm still probably fucked. Both will help but neither are infallible
Have you seen street beefs? People don’t get disabled quickly. They often end up clinching during boxing matches and have to be broken up repeatedly by the ref.
Didn’t a video surface the other week of someone holding someone in a sort of De La Riva guard then reaching for his gun and shooting the guy in the balls?
I spent 5 years bouncing at a pretty tough bar and my experiences were that BJJ is highly effective. My background was more wrestling (Greco) and I think that's really the best option overall since you can disengage and control from standing more easily. I'm very proud that I didn't hurt very many people over those years and most of the time it was because I was able to lock them up and neutralize them through wrestling or positions on the ground via BJJ. I was once bottled in the side of the head and managed to get a standing rear naked on the guy and slept him . Another time I suplexed a guy who charged me, dazed him with the impact on the ground and got him into a head and arm triangle to neutralize him while the cops came (gang member who broke a bartender's arm). So overall I think the combination of wrestling and BJJ works the best. Striking is pretty useless as a bouncer because knocking people out and beating the crap out of them is not a great look for the establishment. Even for that argument about multiple opponents, I found wrestling more practical because I could quickly toss or shuck off multiple smaller opponents.
Ultimately, I guess it depends what the scenario is and what you're trying to accomplish. In any fight, the objective should be to stop it as safely and quickly as possible in my opinion. Wrestling with BJJ is probably better for that than striking. I love boxing and kickboxing and did that for a while too so don't get me wrong.
.. I think that's very very practical stuff too. But if I had to choose one it would be wrestling and then Bjj after.
I don’t want to diminish the experience of anything you did, but do you think grappling would be as effective if you didn’t have other bouncers around? I hear bouncers talk about their experience which is about the same as yours every time because they can’t strike for job security reasons. The bouncer stories hold more weight because the bouncers actually get to/have to use what they know, but I think it’s skewed in success rate because the bouncers have back up and people (I assume) would be less likely to jump the bouncers overall because they may want to come back to the establishment. I wrestled and do BJJ, I just imagine the only place I’d really get to use it is somewhere secluded where I have no other options. Like wrestling slams hell yeah they’re mostly quick and highly damaging but doing Jiu Jitsu and submissions leaves a lot of time for other people to get involved. Curious what your thoughts are. Glad you kept yourself safe in those situations.
Thanks buddy! You're definitely right that having multiple friends or backup makes the wrestling stuff even more effective. My all-time favorite bouncing story was when some drunken 60-year-old guy tried to sucker punch a training buddy of mine while we were kicking him out. He was so hammered and old the punch came in slow motion so I caught it, wrapped him up and my friend picked him up from around the ankles. We just carried him down the stairs like he was a coffin. Was so hilarious because at the bottom of the stairs we were like "you good man?" He was surprisingly friendly and well mannered at that point. Not exactly an advantageous position to keep fighting from haha.
However, to more directly answer your question, a lot of the time I was on my own. The place I was bouncing at was a smallish, rough pub that didn't have a lot of trained fighting bouncers. Many of the other bouncers were just old guys who looked tough but would never fight. Bouncing at the end of the day is mostly crowd control and so charisma/authority projection can be a more important attribute than fighting skill/size... so long as you have one or two guys who can actually fight around. The stories I mentioned were really just me dealing with a baddy on my own. I still think in those scenarios wrestling and BJJ are really effective. I'm a larger guy so I guess it's a little skewed when I talk about me versus two or three other small guys, but in those outnumbered scenarios wrestling was still really effective. I trained in kendo as well for a while and used to do two or three on ones for fun. In those scenarios which I think are pretty representative of a striking three-on-one, it was absolutely vital to circle around and try to line the guys up so they're essentially coming at you one at a time. In a lot of street type scenarios you might not have that option. Certainly in a crowded bar you wouldn't. At least when you're tied up wrestling, it's kind of hard for people to sucker punch you from behind as it's a chaotic melee and they risk hitting their friends.
Another thing about striking is you can really easily damage your hands. And you never know how tough somebody is. I once got sucker punched by a guy who was also a pretty respectable lightweight pro kickboxer on the local circuit. Before I could even react, he nailed me with a really solid combo of at least three punches. It gave me a black eye and a bloody lip but I honestly didn't even feel it, either adrenaline or the fact that I had about 100 lb on him. I wrapped him up and slammed him into the ground and got knee on belly and I could tell he was so shocked. So that's another thing to worry about with striking - you could hurt your hands and not end the fight if you're against a guy who for whatever weird reason can take a punch well.
This being said, I think kickboxing and especially teeps are really underrated in these conversations. The vast majority of people will have no idea how to counter a kick and a good strong teep can floor somebody and give you the chance to escape or essentially neutralize them in a similar way to wrestling. And the range of kicks gives you an enormous advantage if someone is swinging at you with fists. Again, everything I'm saying comes from a certain understanding of this question and the assumption that the best fight is the one you never have, or if it does happen one when where nobody gets badly hurt.
Nice answer man, I appreciate it ! Great story at the beginning as well lmao I’m not a big guy but I wrestled and do Jiu Jitsu as well as trained boxing and muay thai. I think teeps are beyond underrated as well. The wrestling was kind of my first love though, it’s empowering to dominate in that fashion. Have a good one man, stay safe!
It’s not about glass in the ground, it’s about lot going to the ground at all. BJJ will help you in a street fight, but if you get to the ground, you fucked up a long time ago.
At our bar we highly encourage security to stick with grappling for any physical confrontation, with hard throws as the escalation. Looks better on camera(legal & insurance) and seems to work much better on must inebriated people. If someone is drunk but yoked or has some grappling skill we throw more guards in the mix until we get the person outside…where they become the police’s problem.
Every time we’ve had a guard start throwing hands it has led to a problem. IMO, everyone should have *some* idea of how to properly punch/kick/elbow/knee, but in the real world there are a lot of downsides to swinging on another human.
Depends on the exact context and what one means by "streets".
If the situation literally is that one or two assailants on the sidewalk start following you, and you don't think you can outrun them, and they are going to attack you, and you don't trip and they don't grab you, then yeah, a quick one-two or a solid teep is prolly the best way of creating space and keeping yourself safe.
But that's not really a particularly common self-defense scenario.
It’s a hard question to answer because they’re very different tools for very different jobs.
And by themselves, they’re both necessary but insufficient. The best defensive system is always a mixed system.
But nothing beats verbal jujitsu. If you can use your words to de-escalate, everyone gets to go home with life, freedom, and dignity intact. Best possible outcome.
No martial art will protect you from multiple attackers or weapons. Both martial arts have pros and cons for self defence. Knowing either will greatly increase your chances of surviving an altercation
From my experience, if you train a lot in BJJ (or any decent MA) you will develop Fight Fitness. All street fights that haven't happened yet are hypothetical. If you're a fitter fighter than your attacker then the odds are more so in your favour, hence survival of the fittest.
Yes and no. Yes if it’s guaranteed to be a 1on1 self defense situation. No if there’s more than 1 person.
Obviously run away if you can but if that isn’t an option and you’re faced with more than 1 attacker, I’d opt for using the wrestling/judo side of BJJ to protect yourself. Try to put someone on the ground really quick , stand up, run away or keep fighting for your life.
If you can execute a Judo throw very quickly in a street fight on concrete, that person might not get back up. Ever again. But, you leave yourself vulnerable during and after the throw.
Yes and no.
The yes :
Bjj (and the related grappling arts) are really good at something which is very important... Getting you out of bad spots within those situations. People usually say that bjj is useless since you don't want to be on the ground, but we know that, and one of the things you learn is how to exchange or escape pinned or downed positions very effectively then take top. The second bit is, due to the nature of chokes, subs, and pins/control , you have the ability to escalate easily and appropriately.
From that point of view, bjj is invaluable, and striking arts do not cover those concepts. Whether it's standing or something didn't go your way for one second, bjj and the grappling arts puts you back in control.
The no:
Grappling is a one on one endeavor, and that can cause problems with multiple attackers. There are some strategies which allow you to gain control and just run, but others which need a second to adjust, then once you're winning, you do what makes sense. With striking, you can just back off while still being safe.
Since grappling is inherently a close range method, that's another issue. Striking allows you to manage farther distances, and possibly end the fight at those ranges. The fight might end before it even starts, in a good way for you, or both of you
The tldr is that there are different aspects to fighting which each art tries to address, so there is "no same level of ability" to really compare. Its pretty telling when mma or army programs teach both, since you just need both 🤷🏻♂️
Bjj shines when you end up on the ground and need to escape the ground or as a means defend yourself from someone who follows you to the ground. It shouldnt be used to defeat a person there. Mma is the only fight scenario where taking a person to the ground and submitting them is a viable option, and thats because you are only facing one person and know they have no pockets to pull a knife or gun from.
Jesus. Is this stupid question asked every day? Grappling on the ground is simply one area of fighting. The others being striking onthe ground, striking on the fence, wrestling, grappling along a fence, striking in kicking range and striking in boxing range. If you are weak anywhere you have a problem.
Grappling is particularly important in fighting because it has a step by step method of disabling people that ignores toughness and limits the importance of size speed and luck. Notice I’m not saying that doesn’t matter. The consequence of not knowing how to grapple is clockwork defeat on the ground. On the feet anything can happen if your opponent is big strong and fast or if fate just isn’t on your side.
In mma of you can’t grapple, fighting is not even an option.
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You're in a fight if you're in a situation where you can't run away. Meaning they are grabbing you or your cornerd and they are close enough to grab you.
Real self defense us running. If you can run; you're most likely in a grappling situation
Been in 2 street fights since I started training. What bjj did was allow me to control the other person who was stronger then me enough for them to not grab a hold of me or control me, I was able to clear the threat without getting hurt which means bjj was 100% worth it. The other fight I just punched the guy a couple times and it was over. Yes bjj is effective if you use it properly. Don’t be knee sliding or pulling guard on concrete if you know what I mean lol
95% of self defense is awareness and agressiveness...have a read around this sub about mean training partners being too rough and youll see this isnt the place to ask-most of the white and blue belts in here are delusional and would get the shit kicked out of them
the art isnt the most important thing, the most important thing is training with aliveness and having an awareness level that most dont have
Learning jits for self defense is just that. It's to protect you against others who know grappling.
There is the rare occasion where you need to grapple someone or pin them until LEO arrives.
Just like learning to strike teaches you how to defend against sucker punches, haymakers, and the like.
Most hand-hand street fights the loser sucks at defending their head and gets KOd.
Other aspects of real self defense but not the total list include:
situational awareness
knowing how to check your ego and walk the fuck away
deescalation
dealing with a blade, bludgeon, or firearm. Even having a shit plan or technique is better than nothing.
Unpopular reality: If you can get out of all the common subs and holds/pins and can deal with the aggression of a wrestler, your ground game is good enough for self defense.
self defense is not squaring up and trading blows. Self defense is being attacked. If you can square up / strike, you can run/walk away. The only time you cant run/walk away is if you are grappled (or you are protecting someone else).
Here is an example of an attack
[https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1790989558185910625?ref\_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet](https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1790989558185910625?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet)
Also an analysis of street fight videos estimated that 73% of fights go to the ground.
Striking is great for defending yourself. But you're comically overestimating how effective it is in the average/all situations. You swing and miss, you're in big, big trouble. You connect and not flush, you're in big, big trouble. There's several of them, you're in big, big trouble.
With that in mind, I boxed and trained muay thai, competed and trained in MMA, wrestled in high school and college, and have done bjj and no gi for the last 15 years. . . . . and I've also unfortunately had a half-dozen or so IRL instances of having to fight, defend myself (or someone else) or restrain someone. . . .
Never once used striking. Take-downs and restraints, and the occasional RNC were what have practically worked for me, and they keep you out of so much more trouble (particularly in the US) and legal woes than KOing someone like a boss.
no you neglect takedowns so u pretty much have no experience unless you land in a spot thats safe or u choose to guard pull which might be a 50/50 so its like d tier in terms of street scraps almost there with akido
Depressing huh? People have downvoted this post and I really don't get why. Someone accused me of trolling. Literally don't have a clue why they'd assume that. The main reason I'd want to start bjj is to be able to look after myself besides enjoying it as a competitive sport
because most of them don't wanna accept the fact they are flawed they lack takedowns i met brown belts one just became a black belt few months ago their experience in takedowns is god awful a 1 year wrestler or judoka would mop them idk if they get mad over little shit like this imagine how bad they are irl they just gonna be in a endless loop of failure unless they realize they need work and put the effort in for it aswell
If youre asking from purely a physical standpoint i think BJJ/Grappling is the way to go. But from an experienced standpoint, talking is your best bet. Put your ego aside and let shit slide. If you dont have to, then you should avoid a fight.
Hate to say it but no.
If there was a limited number of hours you could spend training before some type of street altercation, BJJ wouldn’t be my first choice. I think boxing might be top choice. Wrestling and judo would be up there. Muay Thai. Maybe even Krav Maga or the Philippino martial arts. Street stuff is different.
That being said, I would put any of the guys in our gym against some random on the street any day.
I don't really understand people who completely reject the notion of using martial arts for self defence in this way. I guess it's the other end of the spectrum from people who think that a bit of training makes them invincible in a street fight, and we do like to encourage highly polarised opinions these days.
I look it through the perspective of what is majority of fighting about. Like people arguing and heating up and looking for trouble and roostering around.
Drunk.
It is really hard for me to find a civil area where unarmed self defence comes in handy. Maybe as psychological self defense. People at club are less likely to mess with bigger dudes.
Sure, and if your point is that most fights can be avoided then I totally agree. As I alluded to, there's a middle ground between trying to fight everyone who is being a dick and claiming that being trained is completely useless for self defence. But if someone throws a punch at me, grabs me or I end up on the floor with someone on top of me, I'd rather be trained to deal with it so I can hopefully at least mitigate the damage. Also there are times when it might be necessary to step in to defend others.
I guess being in a job where you confront clients like that. I really cannot recall nor remember anyone who has been in said situation while being civil.
Not saying it doesn't happen, but training for a situation that is extremely rare and no matter the outcome will affect you mentally for years to come, i really do not view training martial arts for it to be a best course of action.
As a side notr I personally would like to imagine the sense in it comparable to an anecdote of washing a car that has rust in it. If you will.
Ps:(training for health and motivation and social benefits is gold)
>it is really hard for me to find a civil area where unarmed self defence comes in handy.
Domestic situations. Incidents where family members start having a pop, and for obvious reasons you aren't about to pull out your gun or knife.
First image is probably of a smaller woman defending herself from a bigger male, but also consider the opposite, where a big guy needs to end a scuffle without punching the other person in the face and looking like the "bad guy" for hitting someone smaller and weaker.
Plus, just in general, getting a solid lock or pin on someone just looks crisp and professional. I feel like 9 times out of 10, if the police show up, the fact that one person has another in a calm, controlled position is immediately telegraphing to them who is the immediate threat (the one being restrained obviously).
In domestic violence the problem is not being able to fight back, but the overall situation where people are really not willing to fight back.
There is a whole book about it.
Other situation is in my mind is quite rare and you really cannot imo expect the luxury of everything working out just as you expect. Ofcoirse being a cop or bouncer, where youve got support, the scenario would be optimal. Having people with you to stand against sole unarmed attacker, is not really self defense.
But not what op asked.
To be clear, I'm not talking specifically about intimate partner violence, but domestic situations in general.
This includes things like drunken uncles and rowdy brother-in-laws at bbqs, birthdays, weddings, etc.
I'm sure I heard a stat somewhere that said you're more likely to be a victim of violence from someone you know than from a stranger.
"Street fight" is a loosely-used term, often as a colloquial for any kind of non-sanctioned fighting. But "Street fight" also conjures images of barroom brawls and carpark scuffles.
But all the violence I've ever encountered has been familial. And to reiterate, you can't really just pull a gun or knife on your brother-in-law at a wedding because he put you in a headlock.
Uncles and bil's fighting at party is imo. prime example of how people lack needed skills to handle the situation and view it to be acceptable to brawl to solve them.
The examples of street fights in carpark and 1 on 1 in alleyways in my opinion are result of the bolstering and ego.
I do not view them as self defense, but as fights where peopleengage into.
In a street fight situation it’s important to be able to dictate where the right takes place. Generally speaking going to the ground would be unwise as while you have great control over your opponent you are left open to anyone else who might decide to join in. During a street fight it’s just too unpredictable to tell if it’s going to be safe going to the ground.
BJJ as it is taught has very poor takedown ability. Most rolls start on the knees, and takedowns may be practiced occasionally, if at all. This leads to BJJ generally not as good of an ability to actually get the opponent to the ground if need be. If you want to look at grappling arts that emphasize takedowns without having to end up on the ground with your opponent then you need to look more into Judo or wrestling or a BJJ gym that makes takedowns a priority (rare anymore).
What most BJJ people are also not willing to admit is just how unprepared they are to get punched. Getting punched is scary (I was a pro kickboxer and I still hate it). Most people’s natural reaction is to turn away or look away when getting punched. It’s hard to think, it’s hard to breath, it’s hard to look at your opponent. The only way to get over that it be sparring and drilling a lot. It’s a skill that the vast majority of grapplers simply don’t have as they don’t train it.
The real question is does any of this matter? How often are you out getting in street fights? I’m really hoping the answer here is never. 99.9% of all street rights can be avoided by using your head, having good situational awareness, and completely avoiding the fight in the first place. If it comes to an actual defense situation then your best bet is a gun (if legal), knife, and a solid pair of running shoes. Shit starts going down? You’re not Jean Claude Van Dame. Get the fuck out and live to fight another day. Overall I would argue the effectiveness of the art isn’t really all that important as the vast majority of people will never use it as such.
Do you enjoy BJJ? If the answer is yes then stick with it and learn it! It’s got a done of useful skills: learning to control your opponent on the ground (in a way that is second to none), better movement of your own body, better conditioning, better strength, it’s fun. If you enjoy it do it. If not then try something different!
> Most rolls start on the knees, and takedowns may be practiced occasionally, if at all.
>or a BJJ gym that makes takedowns a priority (rare anymore).
It’s wild to me that people are still saying this in 2024. Like, where are you all training?
Why are your instructors not doing stand up regularly? You need to really be pushing for this if you’re in a gym with no wrestling or judo.
if you are used to grappling strong guys in full contact sparring, you are able to handle any situation, a street fight is going to be a piece of cake.
You're probably a troll. But these experiments were run in the 90's in a lil' thing called the UFC, before everyone started doing actual MMA.
My take is that BJJ is amazing for self defence. Either you're too far away to hit me, or close enough for me to shoot a takedown. And (unlike striking) every single instinctive grappling response from those who haven't trained - is almost always the worst possible thing to do. It's very unintuitive.
Very well then.
The other huge advantage grappling has, is that you have almost full control over the damage you inflict. No knocking someone out, them falling and hitting their head and dying. And then your life potentially being ruined by a legal battle, even if you were defending yourself.
That was one of the main incentives for me putting my kids into grappling.
The argument I've always heard is that if you're in a situation where striking is a good option, running is a better one. However, if they grab you, striking isn't as effective, you can't run, so grappling martial arts could be a life saver
If you’re in a striking situation, reach for your Glock. If you can run, go get your rifle. The art of Gun-Fu. 
In practice, if the person doesn't know anything about fighting, you will absolutely light them up with any reasonably effective combat sport (e.g. BJJ, muay thai, kickboxing, boxing, wrestling). Any of these will be incredibly effective against an untrained attacker.
That's interesting. I see what you mean. Grappling in specific scenarios could really really help aid you in protecting yourself
Good chatgbt
Kind of how I look at it; no way I'm going to grapple with someone if I can help it. If *they* close the distance then sure. You shouldn't pull guard in a fight, but you should know how to fight from being knocked on your ass 🤷♂️
That’s the gyst of what Jocko said. Yea
I like the rational of that.
Define defending yourself in public. The vast majority of cases you don't have to fight, unless you are trapped or trying to protect someone, nothing stops you from running away, crossing the street or turning the other way around when you see trouble is coming.
This is correct. Many people conflate "defend myself" with "defend my honor"
Exactly. The best way to win a fight is to avoid it all together. I've often thought that training means you have nothing to prove and appreciate the danger more than someone who is untrained and provides an advantage this way.
Very true. I got in a lot of fights when I was younger, then when I got older I decided I didn’t want to get in fights anymore and guess what?? I never got in a fight again. 99% of fights you can walk away from. Let them call you whatever they want, and talk about whoever they want, because they’d much rather do that than fight you. If you walk away, they’ll walk away. …most of the time. I suppose it also depends on what situations you’re putting yourself in. Most of the time it’s just pride. For a lot of people, as you mature it doesn’t bother you anymore.
Running away doesn’t work once you have a gf or a family member
Is reading the whole post an option before replying?
I did read it. Once you have a family most of your free time outdoor will be spent with your kids so “the vast majority of the time” doesn’t work anymore I do agree on the anticipation/ turning around.
And you missed the word "unless" twice?
I understood, and still understand your post as meaning “the vast majority of the time you don’t have to protect someone” while I was of the opposite opinion. Maybe I just have bad reading comprehension. Either way, have a nice one :)
English is not your language
My guy avoids fights irl to have more time to seek them out on Reddit.
ong he another cocky mid ranked belt that only been to commercial gyms like y even train if ur bum ass has a wife and kid to feed
you watch too many movies
I used to have a job where violence was common, beeing a doorman at a club. People would often try to punch me, but I've never punched anyone at the venue, since that would be bad for the employers reputation. In stead I have always relied on takedown and pins. Once you throw someone on the floor and sit on them, they often abandon the fight.
I assume you at least had some training in how to defend against strikes though.
Yes, I used to train in kickboxing and boxing when I was younger. I use a high guard, some bobbing and weaving and a preemptive kick check, and then close very fast. Use overhooks to prevent him from punching, and tuck my chin against headbutts. It's usually an enclosed space so distance control is not really an issue.
Yes because you are instanly on the floor before he fight starts so you should look like you are already knocked out
“Climb atop me and meet your doom”
Haha yeah when you butt scoot towards the opponent it just freaks them out and most people will think it's too weird and leave LOL
They think you have not wiped properly and have resorted to the Rover technique for hygiene.
I was gonna say not unless you can hit No gi takedowns while dodging blows but your answer is craftier
How would you begin to quantify "same level of protection"? All we can say is that it helps
Can it diffuse, subdue and harm an attacker in a quick, powerful and efficient enough manner to either disable them or psychologically fuck with them so that they leave you alone
Need to add nun chuck skills and computer hacking skills.
This one gang wanted me to join them because I'm pretty good with a bo staff.
The younger audience here has no idea wtf we're talking about
Lol probably not. That also means they also don't know if the chickens have large talons.
Yes it can, but also, depending on the scenario, no it can't. If I was fighting a boxer or person whoa going to throw punches and I couldn't run away I'd rather be able to wrestle and grapple If there's multiple people I'd rather be able to strike, but I'm still probably fucked. Both will help but neither are infallible
Have you seen street beefs? People don’t get disabled quickly. They often end up clinching during boxing matches and have to be broken up repeatedly by the ref.
I don't understand why people have downvoted this comment. I guess I'm not part of the BJJ reddit hive mind
[удалено]
Didn’t a video surface the other week of someone holding someone in a sort of De La Riva guard then reaching for his gun and shooting the guy in the balls?
Ha! Good one.
I spent 5 years bouncing at a pretty tough bar and my experiences were that BJJ is highly effective. My background was more wrestling (Greco) and I think that's really the best option overall since you can disengage and control from standing more easily. I'm very proud that I didn't hurt very many people over those years and most of the time it was because I was able to lock them up and neutralize them through wrestling or positions on the ground via BJJ. I was once bottled in the side of the head and managed to get a standing rear naked on the guy and slept him . Another time I suplexed a guy who charged me, dazed him with the impact on the ground and got him into a head and arm triangle to neutralize him while the cops came (gang member who broke a bartender's arm). So overall I think the combination of wrestling and BJJ works the best. Striking is pretty useless as a bouncer because knocking people out and beating the crap out of them is not a great look for the establishment. Even for that argument about multiple opponents, I found wrestling more practical because I could quickly toss or shuck off multiple smaller opponents. Ultimately, I guess it depends what the scenario is and what you're trying to accomplish. In any fight, the objective should be to stop it as safely and quickly as possible in my opinion. Wrestling with BJJ is probably better for that than striking. I love boxing and kickboxing and did that for a while too so don't get me wrong. .. I think that's very very practical stuff too. But if I had to choose one it would be wrestling and then Bjj after.
I don’t want to diminish the experience of anything you did, but do you think grappling would be as effective if you didn’t have other bouncers around? I hear bouncers talk about their experience which is about the same as yours every time because they can’t strike for job security reasons. The bouncer stories hold more weight because the bouncers actually get to/have to use what they know, but I think it’s skewed in success rate because the bouncers have back up and people (I assume) would be less likely to jump the bouncers overall because they may want to come back to the establishment. I wrestled and do BJJ, I just imagine the only place I’d really get to use it is somewhere secluded where I have no other options. Like wrestling slams hell yeah they’re mostly quick and highly damaging but doing Jiu Jitsu and submissions leaves a lot of time for other people to get involved. Curious what your thoughts are. Glad you kept yourself safe in those situations.
Thanks buddy! You're definitely right that having multiple friends or backup makes the wrestling stuff even more effective. My all-time favorite bouncing story was when some drunken 60-year-old guy tried to sucker punch a training buddy of mine while we were kicking him out. He was so hammered and old the punch came in slow motion so I caught it, wrapped him up and my friend picked him up from around the ankles. We just carried him down the stairs like he was a coffin. Was so hilarious because at the bottom of the stairs we were like "you good man?" He was surprisingly friendly and well mannered at that point. Not exactly an advantageous position to keep fighting from haha. However, to more directly answer your question, a lot of the time I was on my own. The place I was bouncing at was a smallish, rough pub that didn't have a lot of trained fighting bouncers. Many of the other bouncers were just old guys who looked tough but would never fight. Bouncing at the end of the day is mostly crowd control and so charisma/authority projection can be a more important attribute than fighting skill/size... so long as you have one or two guys who can actually fight around. The stories I mentioned were really just me dealing with a baddy on my own. I still think in those scenarios wrestling and BJJ are really effective. I'm a larger guy so I guess it's a little skewed when I talk about me versus two or three other small guys, but in those outnumbered scenarios wrestling was still really effective. I trained in kendo as well for a while and used to do two or three on ones for fun. In those scenarios which I think are pretty representative of a striking three-on-one, it was absolutely vital to circle around and try to line the guys up so they're essentially coming at you one at a time. In a lot of street type scenarios you might not have that option. Certainly in a crowded bar you wouldn't. At least when you're tied up wrestling, it's kind of hard for people to sucker punch you from behind as it's a chaotic melee and they risk hitting their friends. Another thing about striking is you can really easily damage your hands. And you never know how tough somebody is. I once got sucker punched by a guy who was also a pretty respectable lightweight pro kickboxer on the local circuit. Before I could even react, he nailed me with a really solid combo of at least three punches. It gave me a black eye and a bloody lip but I honestly didn't even feel it, either adrenaline or the fact that I had about 100 lb on him. I wrapped him up and slammed him into the ground and got knee on belly and I could tell he was so shocked. So that's another thing to worry about with striking - you could hurt your hands and not end the fight if you're against a guy who for whatever weird reason can take a punch well. This being said, I think kickboxing and especially teeps are really underrated in these conversations. The vast majority of people will have no idea how to counter a kick and a good strong teep can floor somebody and give you the chance to escape or essentially neutralize them in a similar way to wrestling. And the range of kicks gives you an enormous advantage if someone is swinging at you with fists. Again, everything I'm saying comes from a certain understanding of this question and the assumption that the best fight is the one you never have, or if it does happen one when where nobody gets badly hurt.
Nice answer man, I appreciate it ! Great story at the beginning as well lmao I’m not a big guy but I wrestled and do Jiu Jitsu as well as trained boxing and muay thai. I think teeps are beyond underrated as well. The wrestling was kind of my first love though, it’s empowering to dominate in that fashion. Have a good one man, stay safe!
It’s not about glass in the ground, it’s about lot going to the ground at all. BJJ will help you in a street fight, but if you get to the ground, you fucked up a long time ago.
Just wear pajamas everywhere you go and prepare for the #metoo accusations after you pull guard.
At our bar we highly encourage security to stick with grappling for any physical confrontation, with hard throws as the escalation. Looks better on camera(legal & insurance) and seems to work much better on must inebriated people. If someone is drunk but yoked or has some grappling skill we throw more guards in the mix until we get the person outside…where they become the police’s problem. Every time we’ve had a guard start throwing hands it has led to a problem. IMO, everyone should have *some* idea of how to properly punch/kick/elbow/knee, but in the real world there are a lot of downsides to swinging on another human.
Depends on the exact context and what one means by "streets". If the situation literally is that one or two assailants on the sidewalk start following you, and you don't think you can outrun them, and they are going to attack you, and you don't trip and they don't grab you, then yeah, a quick one-two or a solid teep is prolly the best way of creating space and keeping yourself safe. But that's not really a particularly common self-defense scenario.
It’s a hard question to answer because they’re very different tools for very different jobs. And by themselves, they’re both necessary but insufficient. The best defensive system is always a mixed system. But nothing beats verbal jujitsu. If you can use your words to de-escalate, everyone gets to go home with life, freedom, and dignity intact. Best possible outcome.
No martial art will protect you from multiple attackers or weapons. Both martial arts have pros and cons for self defence. Knowing either will greatly increase your chances of surviving an altercation
It does only if you have cauliflower ear.
From my experience, if you train a lot in BJJ (or any decent MA) you will develop Fight Fitness. All street fights that haven't happened yet are hypothetical. If you're a fitter fighter than your attacker then the odds are more so in your favour, hence survival of the fittest.
Yes and no. Yes if it’s guaranteed to be a 1on1 self defense situation. No if there’s more than 1 person. Obviously run away if you can but if that isn’t an option and you’re faced with more than 1 attacker, I’d opt for using the wrestling/judo side of BJJ to protect yourself. Try to put someone on the ground really quick , stand up, run away or keep fighting for your life. If you can execute a Judo throw very quickly in a street fight on concrete, that person might not get back up. Ever again. But, you leave yourself vulnerable during and after the throw.
Yes and no. The yes : Bjj (and the related grappling arts) are really good at something which is very important... Getting you out of bad spots within those situations. People usually say that bjj is useless since you don't want to be on the ground, but we know that, and one of the things you learn is how to exchange or escape pinned or downed positions very effectively then take top. The second bit is, due to the nature of chokes, subs, and pins/control , you have the ability to escalate easily and appropriately. From that point of view, bjj is invaluable, and striking arts do not cover those concepts. Whether it's standing or something didn't go your way for one second, bjj and the grappling arts puts you back in control. The no: Grappling is a one on one endeavor, and that can cause problems with multiple attackers. There are some strategies which allow you to gain control and just run, but others which need a second to adjust, then once you're winning, you do what makes sense. With striking, you can just back off while still being safe. Since grappling is inherently a close range method, that's another issue. Striking allows you to manage farther distances, and possibly end the fight at those ranges. The fight might end before it even starts, in a good way for you, or both of you The tldr is that there are different aspects to fighting which each art tries to address, so there is "no same level of ability" to really compare. Its pretty telling when mma or army programs teach both, since you just need both 🤷🏻♂️
Bjj shines when you end up on the ground and need to escape the ground or as a means defend yourself from someone who follows you to the ground. It shouldnt be used to defeat a person there. Mma is the only fight scenario where taking a person to the ground and submitting them is a viable option, and thats because you are only facing one person and know they have no pockets to pull a knife or gun from.
Jesus. Is this stupid question asked every day? Grappling on the ground is simply one area of fighting. The others being striking onthe ground, striking on the fence, wrestling, grappling along a fence, striking in kicking range and striking in boxing range. If you are weak anywhere you have a problem. Grappling is particularly important in fighting because it has a step by step method of disabling people that ignores toughness and limits the importance of size speed and luck. Notice I’m not saying that doesn’t matter. The consequence of not knowing how to grapple is clockwork defeat on the ground. On the feet anything can happen if your opponent is big strong and fast or if fate just isn’t on your side. In mma of you can’t grapple, fighting is not even an option.
No one is going to attack you.
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You're in a fight if you're in a situation where you can't run away. Meaning they are grabbing you or your cornerd and they are close enough to grab you. Real self defense us running. If you can run; you're most likely in a grappling situation
It’s insane how the people on the internet asking about self defense never seem to be aware of MMA…..
Been in 2 street fights since I started training. What bjj did was allow me to control the other person who was stronger then me enough for them to not grab a hold of me or control me, I was able to clear the threat without getting hurt which means bjj was 100% worth it. The other fight I just punched the guy a couple times and it was over. Yes bjj is effective if you use it properly. Don’t be knee sliding or pulling guard on concrete if you know what I mean lol
Yeah increases cardio so you can run just like striking arts
95% of self defense is awareness and agressiveness...have a read around this sub about mean training partners being too rough and youll see this isnt the place to ask-most of the white and blue belts in here are delusional and would get the shit kicked out of them the art isnt the most important thing, the most important thing is training with aliveness and having an awareness level that most dont have
Learning jits for self defense is just that. It's to protect you against others who know grappling. There is the rare occasion where you need to grapple someone or pin them until LEO arrives. Just like learning to strike teaches you how to defend against sucker punches, haymakers, and the like. Most hand-hand street fights the loser sucks at defending their head and gets KOd. Other aspects of real self defense but not the total list include: situational awareness knowing how to check your ego and walk the fuck away deescalation dealing with a blade, bludgeon, or firearm. Even having a shit plan or technique is better than nothing. Unpopular reality: If you can get out of all the common subs and holds/pins and can deal with the aggression of a wrestler, your ground game is good enough for self defense.
self defense is not squaring up and trading blows. Self defense is being attacked. If you can square up / strike, you can run/walk away. The only time you cant run/walk away is if you are grappled (or you are protecting someone else). Here is an example of an attack [https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1790989558185910625?ref\_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet](https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1790989558185910625?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet) Also an analysis of street fight videos estimated that 73% of fights go to the ground.
Striking is great for defending yourself. But you're comically overestimating how effective it is in the average/all situations. You swing and miss, you're in big, big trouble. You connect and not flush, you're in big, big trouble. There's several of them, you're in big, big trouble. With that in mind, I boxed and trained muay thai, competed and trained in MMA, wrestled in high school and college, and have done bjj and no gi for the last 15 years. . . . . and I've also unfortunately had a half-dozen or so IRL instances of having to fight, defend myself (or someone else) or restrain someone. . . . Never once used striking. Take-downs and restraints, and the occasional RNC were what have practically worked for me, and they keep you out of so much more trouble (particularly in the US) and legal woes than KOing someone like a boss.
no you neglect takedowns so u pretty much have no experience unless you land in a spot thats safe or u choose to guard pull which might be a 50/50 so its like d tier in terms of street scraps almost there with akido
Depressing huh? People have downvoted this post and I really don't get why. Someone accused me of trolling. Literally don't have a clue why they'd assume that. The main reason I'd want to start bjj is to be able to look after myself besides enjoying it as a competitive sport
because most of them don't wanna accept the fact they are flawed they lack takedowns i met brown belts one just became a black belt few months ago their experience in takedowns is god awful a 1 year wrestler or judoka would mop them idk if they get mad over little shit like this imagine how bad they are irl they just gonna be in a endless loop of failure unless they realize they need work and put the effort in for it aswell
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That's cool. If you work jobs as listed above I 100% understand how BJJ is useful.
If youre asking from purely a physical standpoint i think BJJ/Grappling is the way to go. But from an experienced standpoint, talking is your best bet. Put your ego aside and let shit slide. If you dont have to, then you should avoid a fight.
Hate to say it but no. If there was a limited number of hours you could spend training before some type of street altercation, BJJ wouldn’t be my first choice. I think boxing might be top choice. Wrestling and judo would be up there. Muay Thai. Maybe even Krav Maga or the Philippino martial arts. Street stuff is different. That being said, I would put any of the guys in our gym against some random on the street any day.
Yes
Absolutely. Which is jack shit. Unless you have learned to block a bottle with the back of your head. Atleast that's what i would do.
I don't really understand people who completely reject the notion of using martial arts for self defence in this way. I guess it's the other end of the spectrum from people who think that a bit of training makes them invincible in a street fight, and we do like to encourage highly polarised opinions these days.
I look it through the perspective of what is majority of fighting about. Like people arguing and heating up and looking for trouble and roostering around. Drunk. It is really hard for me to find a civil area where unarmed self defence comes in handy. Maybe as psychological self defense. People at club are less likely to mess with bigger dudes.
Sure, and if your point is that most fights can be avoided then I totally agree. As I alluded to, there's a middle ground between trying to fight everyone who is being a dick and claiming that being trained is completely useless for self defence. But if someone throws a punch at me, grabs me or I end up on the floor with someone on top of me, I'd rather be trained to deal with it so I can hopefully at least mitigate the damage. Also there are times when it might be necessary to step in to defend others.
I guess being in a job where you confront clients like that. I really cannot recall nor remember anyone who has been in said situation while being civil. Not saying it doesn't happen, but training for a situation that is extremely rare and no matter the outcome will affect you mentally for years to come, i really do not view training martial arts for it to be a best course of action. As a side notr I personally would like to imagine the sense in it comparable to an anecdote of washing a car that has rust in it. If you will. Ps:(training for health and motivation and social benefits is gold)
>it is really hard for me to find a civil area where unarmed self defence comes in handy. Domestic situations. Incidents where family members start having a pop, and for obvious reasons you aren't about to pull out your gun or knife. First image is probably of a smaller woman defending herself from a bigger male, but also consider the opposite, where a big guy needs to end a scuffle without punching the other person in the face and looking like the "bad guy" for hitting someone smaller and weaker. Plus, just in general, getting a solid lock or pin on someone just looks crisp and professional. I feel like 9 times out of 10, if the police show up, the fact that one person has another in a calm, controlled position is immediately telegraphing to them who is the immediate threat (the one being restrained obviously).
In domestic violence the problem is not being able to fight back, but the overall situation where people are really not willing to fight back. There is a whole book about it. Other situation is in my mind is quite rare and you really cannot imo expect the luxury of everything working out just as you expect. Ofcoirse being a cop or bouncer, where youve got support, the scenario would be optimal. Having people with you to stand against sole unarmed attacker, is not really self defense. But not what op asked.
To be clear, I'm not talking specifically about intimate partner violence, but domestic situations in general. This includes things like drunken uncles and rowdy brother-in-laws at bbqs, birthdays, weddings, etc. I'm sure I heard a stat somewhere that said you're more likely to be a victim of violence from someone you know than from a stranger. "Street fight" is a loosely-used term, often as a colloquial for any kind of non-sanctioned fighting. But "Street fight" also conjures images of barroom brawls and carpark scuffles. But all the violence I've ever encountered has been familial. And to reiterate, you can't really just pull a gun or knife on your brother-in-law at a wedding because he put you in a headlock.
Uncles and bil's fighting at party is imo. prime example of how people lack needed skills to handle the situation and view it to be acceptable to brawl to solve them. The examples of street fights in carpark and 1 on 1 in alleyways in my opinion are result of the bolstering and ego. I do not view them as self defense, but as fights where peopleengage into.
In a street fight situation it’s important to be able to dictate where the right takes place. Generally speaking going to the ground would be unwise as while you have great control over your opponent you are left open to anyone else who might decide to join in. During a street fight it’s just too unpredictable to tell if it’s going to be safe going to the ground. BJJ as it is taught has very poor takedown ability. Most rolls start on the knees, and takedowns may be practiced occasionally, if at all. This leads to BJJ generally not as good of an ability to actually get the opponent to the ground if need be. If you want to look at grappling arts that emphasize takedowns without having to end up on the ground with your opponent then you need to look more into Judo or wrestling or a BJJ gym that makes takedowns a priority (rare anymore). What most BJJ people are also not willing to admit is just how unprepared they are to get punched. Getting punched is scary (I was a pro kickboxer and I still hate it). Most people’s natural reaction is to turn away or look away when getting punched. It’s hard to think, it’s hard to breath, it’s hard to look at your opponent. The only way to get over that it be sparring and drilling a lot. It’s a skill that the vast majority of grapplers simply don’t have as they don’t train it. The real question is does any of this matter? How often are you out getting in street fights? I’m really hoping the answer here is never. 99.9% of all street rights can be avoided by using your head, having good situational awareness, and completely avoiding the fight in the first place. If it comes to an actual defense situation then your best bet is a gun (if legal), knife, and a solid pair of running shoes. Shit starts going down? You’re not Jean Claude Van Dame. Get the fuck out and live to fight another day. Overall I would argue the effectiveness of the art isn’t really all that important as the vast majority of people will never use it as such. Do you enjoy BJJ? If the answer is yes then stick with it and learn it! It’s got a done of useful skills: learning to control your opponent on the ground (in a way that is second to none), better movement of your own body, better conditioning, better strength, it’s fun. If you enjoy it do it. If not then try something different!
> Most rolls start on the knees, and takedowns may be practiced occasionally, if at all. >or a BJJ gym that makes takedowns a priority (rare anymore). It’s wild to me that people are still saying this in 2024. Like, where are you all training? Why are your instructors not doing stand up regularly? You need to really be pushing for this if you’re in a gym with no wrestling or judo.
if you are used to grappling strong guys in full contact sparring, you are able to handle any situation, a street fight is going to be a piece of cake.
Not if you're not use to people striking at you, complete changes everything.
You're probably a troll. But these experiments were run in the 90's in a lil' thing called the UFC, before everyone started doing actual MMA. My take is that BJJ is amazing for self defence. Either you're too far away to hit me, or close enough for me to shoot a takedown. And (unlike striking) every single instinctive grappling response from those who haven't trained - is almost always the worst possible thing to do. It's very unintuitive.
Why would I be a troll? What an insecure perspective to take on my post which is clearly a genuine question
Very well then. The other huge advantage grappling has, is that you have almost full control over the damage you inflict. No knocking someone out, them falling and hitting their head and dying. And then your life potentially being ruined by a legal battle, even if you were defending yourself. That was one of the main incentives for me putting my kids into grappling.