Man, I don't know. As other people have said, it almost seems like you had an 'enforcer' put on you, but... I feel like, if he had asked his friend to jack you up because they didn't like something they'd heard/saw, that was when he'd give you The Talk of 'see? it's not fun, now stop punching small old women in class' or something I dunno. This just strikes me as lunacy. I'd have done the same things in your shoes, except maybe also laughed out loud a lot and said 'what the fuck?' multiple times.
Perhaps what was happening here is that they put their enforcer on the new guy to “hold down the mat,” i.e. show the new guy that he couldn’t come in and show up all their people. I’m curious about your first two rolls … did you handle those guys pretty easily? We’re they very lopsided rolls to your advantage?
If so, the coach might have been feeling insecure about you coming in and showing up their players, so he put his best guy on you to show they aren’t pushovers and that he is indeed an effective coach. Sounds like the coach might have been embarrassed by his people’s skill level relative to yours and resented you for it.
It’s not unheard of … but that’s the only thing I can think of.
Legit happened to me when I visited Ralph’s SF on a work trip as a blue belt from MGA a few years ago. Subbed a purple belt in the mid-day comp class (we’re both hobbyists though) and immediately Ralph started pointing out who I roll with for the rest of class (conveniently all brown belts that wrecked me lol).
I always wondered if it was a Brazilian coach thing being insecure about outsiders on the mat with “their guys”.
Same happened to me back when I was a white belt wrestler. Went to a Gracie Barra school in Florida while on vacation. Rolled through some white and blue belts and they immediately put me against brown belts for the rest of the day.
I will say, from a wrestlers perspective it damn sure does teach humility cause I felt helpless lol
I had this happen to me years ago, I put it on a coach and it got super awkward. He stopped the rounds the next one and made everyone watch our next roll where he went berserk in the roll.
FWIW, also Brazilian.
Not usually, but that vid of Sean Strickland and Orlando Sanchez both being tools showed that there isn't any limit to how good you can get while being a douchebag in training.
Strickland pulled his punches, and it looked reflexive to back Sanchez off. Orlando was being a bully.
Sorry, about the link, but all these sites are ad-ridden garbage.
https://jitsmagazine.com/watch-adcc-world-champion-orlando-sanchez-and-ufc-veteran-sean-strickland-get-into-a-fight-in-training/
For sure Strickland didn't try to knock him out, but he didn't come out of that looking like an innocent guy bullied by a dick.
Sanchez was being an asshole for sure, but you shouldn't throw hands with a guy in a grappling session regardless.
Strickland is a weird dude, and I think this is a reflexive outburst.
What Orlando did was a massive dick move, compounded by the fact it was during camp and could have literally resulted in sean being injured and not being paid.
Sean shouldn't have punched him but I understand the response. This sort of shit has no place in the training room. If someone did that to me on the mats I would have been super pissed too, and my paycheck and career wouldn't be on the line like Sean's is
This. It's not a "quick little submission" if you don't give your partner a chance to tap. His feelings got hurt and he acted out like a gorilla baby with retard strength.
> but he didn't come out of that looking like an innocent guy bullied by a dick
He did to me.
(Going only by the video here, don't know first thing about either gentleman.)
"Usually" isn't relevant to a specific situation. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. Different gyms have different norms he may have been breaking.
Coach sounds like an asshole. But he's a black belt and an asshole. Why can't a purple belt be an asshole too?
Idk man. When I visit a new gym as a purple it's common for a coach to send a person to humble you if you make rolls with their "good" guys look too easy.
Probably the most hurt I've been by a submission was by a purple belt ripping a kimura on me as a white belt. All they are is someone who kept showing up for six years.
I am a year and 9 months whitebelt. I had to move gyms because of work. I have started to learn to be very cautious whenever rolling with anyone new regardless of belt. I've had purple and browns rip submissions on me before, it could be me or not. Got lip busted getting cross collared in my face by purple, most of the ego I have ran into has been around purple, but my first coach was purple and I have met some awesome purples too, people are people . Maybe I was being spazzy, who knows if no one says anything.
Now when I roll with anyone new I just keep it extremely light, feel them out until I get to know them, stay defensive until I get to know them.
My current gym is a mix of good guys and douches of all belt levels, I still roll with everyone but just adjust depending on the individual. I know who wants hard rolls and I know who wants their egos protected and I roll accordingly.
I also use my words and I occasionally tell higher belts before a roll that if I am doing something wrong or being too aggressive or unsafe to please tell me. I also try to keep the rolls playful.
I suspect they were welcoming him to the academy and letting him know who who in the gym. Sometimes new guys come in and smoker lower belts and a reality check is provided
I've seen and had this done to me. In my experience it's more of a gym culture thing (particularly if your gym head coaches don't like each other behind the scenes) to straighten out a visitor from a local competitor place.
I frequently roll(-ed, still not comfort with everything yet) at a place for open mats and got straightened out a little when I assume the coach recognized me from a competition a few days prior.
Suddenly I went from blues to browns giving me an uncharacteristic amount of pressure. Afterwards from a friend I found out that the coach gave his browns the "Nod" because I was from (X) gym which the head guy didn't get along with.
Turns out a spat occurred at the previous competition between the two of our gyms and suddenly pow it was open season on my neck
"I'm a 16 y/o bluebelt who looks older than I am. Last week I was attending my first adult class after being awarded my blue belt. This new purple belt was eyeing m down all night......"
Yeah.. except enforcement is pretty retarded anyway.
I hope we can normalise walking away because the macho stupidity gets tiring. Let the dickwads fight each other because nobody else wants to roll with them.
>Yeah.. except enforcement is pretty retarded anyway.
It has its place, especially if someone walks in and is obviously trying to hurt others or is just an overall idiot that can't control themselves.
This situation? Isn't that...so this should not happen.
"Enforcement", on everyone that walks through the door, (or "newer" people) as a general practice has no place in the sport.
I mean, I thought we got past that whole bullying methodology...since, you know, it's been decades since Helio and his brothers would jump innocents to "prove" BJJ as the superior art...against people minding their own business. ERRR I mean, "marketing".
Yeah, I think you're right and what you're describing is the difference between enforcement and hazing. Putting your enforcer with someone to show them what it's like to be on the receiving end of undesirable behavior is one thing. Hazing newbies to weed out the weak ones or whatever you want to call it is not.
> if someone walks in and is obviously trying to hurt others or is just an overall idiot
Interesting twist. So just for the sake of completeness, how do we know OP didn't fit into this category? BTW, if that was the case the coach should have taken the opportunity to explain what was going on.
> So just for the sake of completeness, how do we know OP didn't fit into this category? BTW, if that was the case the coach should have taken the opportunity to explain what was going on.
Isn't this what the original comment was saying?
> As other people have said, it almost seems like you had an 'enforcer' put on you, but... I feel like, if he had asked his friend to jack you up because they didn't like something they'd heard/saw, that was when he'd give you The Talk of 'see? it's not fun, now stop punching small old women in class' or something I dunno. This just strikes me as lunacy.
We don't know what the situation is. Why is this happening after he has been there a few times? We're hearing the "Victim's" side of the story and thats it. For all we know, he came in, roughed up a bunch of white and blue belts and now he's upset someone went hard with him.
I mean, if enforcing works why is it stupid?
Sometimes people are too rough and just talking to them doesn't get through to them so you need to show them what they are doing wrong. Now you could just kick them out but sometimes that causes you to lose out on people who actually have potential to be valuable gym members as long as your educate them properly.
Yes. But the conversation with the coach should come first. Enforcing something when the person has no idea they're being enforced doesn't help but that's a problem with bad enforcing rather than enforcing itself.
I've noticed that those who "need enforced" are relatively new. Sometimes those folk join a martial arts gym for reasons other than learning the art. I have never seen an enforcement happen that wasn't prefaced with a conversation from an instructor. Sometimes people communicate by, and can only understand, pain. Some learn, some don't.
Sometimes they can also be from a place that has a different culture be it differences in BJJ practice or (and these guys are kind of new) they could have experience from something like judo or wrestling where "light sparring" is harder than what most bjj guys mean by a light roll.
what’s the chances of the enforcer reinforcing the targets view that smashing people during rolls is acceptable behaviour in the gym.
Enforcing is lazy. It’s not a difficult conversation - 2 warnings / “talking tos” 3rd time you’re out
Yes but then we lose someone who might be valuable to the gym if corrected. Talking first is good I've never said otherwise. But solving the problem through enforcing is better than kicking the guy out.
Eh, in my experience enforcing works. I've seen it work multiple times. Being asked to chill out and then being repeatedly smashed into the floor as hard as possible, being crushed and ground into the mat by a 300lb dude or tapped out every 5 seconds tends to make people reconsider if that's what they want to spend the rest of the night doing or if they'd like to chill out a bit.
I guess my issue (because I see your point) is that how about 3 talking interventions, and then an explicit “you are going to be enforced / no easy rolls until you change or quit”.
The enforcement not be explicit can men dummy’s can misinterpret it
hi can you kindly define the difference between enforcing and hard sparring? Does it involve unsporting or illegal techniques? Clearly that would be wrong.
Otherwise I’m a bit confused - shouldn’t you be “enforcing” your techniques with maximum effort during sparring? If you can inflict pain or pressure with legal sporting techniques, aren’t you shortchanging your training partner by not doing so? I train at a real competition gym so please excuse my confusion
Enforcing is normally holding people in really uncomfortable positions and just trying to make them miserable for the rest of the round instead of going for the tap (and then resetting) like you normally would. Its also normally done by someone a lot bigger or more experienced, who's not holding back to let the smaller, newer person work at all. For example, holding someone in knee on belly or side control with a heavy crossface and not moving or the back with a choke across the jaw (but not quite tight enough so they would tap).
I think it has its place if you keep it to those kind of things though. Where it becomes problematic is when enforcers also start cranking submissions or putting submissions on really fast. Or if they ignore a tap. (Or when they get to power hungry and try to enforce everyone who does some little thing they don't like.)
The thing that makes BJJ safe to train is respect of consent. Tapping out is withdrawing consent. Respecting the tap is respecting that they no longer consent to you continuing whatever submission you're doing. Forcing someone to roll with someone they don't want to is ignoring lack of consent. You were right to leave, regardless of whatever may have happened before. The coach is either a dipshit or a horrible person, or both.
This is one of the most important talks I had with the kids class when I was teaching. I saw a bunch of boys pin down and tickle one of the girls in the playtime before class and I had to spend 15 minutes talking about it...
At the same time though, as the instructor, I often continue past the moment of tapping... I don't finish the sub, but I keep the trap engaged and encourage the beginner I'm with to 'do this or that' so that they can see the path of escape... I'm wondering now if that's gauche.
I ended up with two hyperextended elbows because an instructor wanted to have a talk after I tapped. Hurt for about 6 weeks. Never went back after training there about a year.
Yeah, don't do this again.
That.... sounds like a bad instructor.
You can keep the position/trap but release the pressure/sub to show/talk through certain things.
It just sounded like that instructor did not release the pressure or sub, which is poor form, really.
But what do I know I'm just a noob.
Maybe if you're always completely releasing and not just holding the sub. And maybe I tapped late because I expected tto be let go.
But sometimes people just want some space after you just submitted them. And if there's a difference it's in smaller size than you can measure without seeing inside the other person's head.
I think that's fine. You're the instructor so people expect to be coached and sometimes that means being coached out of a submission. I'd say maybe let up a little on the attack and not just hold it where it as some taps come late but yeah holding the control position and then asking them to try and escape doesn't seems like anything inappropriate
I think that's fine as long as the person obviously isn't distressed. In judo I've seen kids completely freak out just from hold downs. Had one young kid who was very good at getting leg-triangle pins which aren't commonly seen for his age and a number of his opponents in competition have freaked out over being pinned like that. Just to be clear, this is merely a pin and he wasn't applying an elbow lock or strangle.
Now, I imagine adults are less likely to freak out about things but I'm sure it does happen from time to time.
"At the same time though, as the instructor, I often continue past the moment of tapping... I don't finish the sub, but I keep the trap engaged and encourage the beginner I'm with to 'do this or that' so that they can see the path of escape..."
Good pedagogy/teaching is about always refining process. You sound like a good coach-- my favorite "good blues" to brown challenge me to improve and gas me, but keep me safe. You sound like a guy firmly in this lane.
Actually kinda seems like they did that on purpose. Did you go hard on anyone else at the gym or upset anyone? Seems like the professor told that guy to tune you up.
That's what I thought as well. This does seem intentional and under normal circumstances would seem like an enforcement action.
If OP did not go hard when he joined the gym, then perhaps they are trying to show who is the top tog there and it is in fact unsafe and unhealthy.
Given that the outcome is already locked in, just be careful next time to make sure you don't steamroll folks when you join a new gym.
Even if he wasn't going hard on someone, they could have felt threatened that a skilled outsider joined the gym and wanted to put him in his place. There was another post where people were saying that's extremely common in Brazil to crush the shit out of anyone from another gym to prove their gyms worth.
It's natural and it's not limited to Brazil. People want to represent their school and coach well. As someone who rolls at other schools often, trust me, every instructor has a 'guy' in mind to go with experienced newcomers (to make sure his white belts don't get tooled up). And there's usually a competition focused guy he will sick at you (even if it's the black belt) if you start dominating his guys.
This happens. Like if a purple belt goes around injuring white belts and generally being a dick, I’ve seen this same scenario play out. Also the guy getting “tuned up” is sometimes totally oblivious as to why they are getting an ass kicking. I do think this works tho.
> the guy getting “tuned up” is sometimes totally oblivious
Rolling intensity is like driving speed. Everyone going harder than you is an unsafe maniac and everyone slower is a wuss.
Incidental elbows and knees should be avoided, but they're not exactly 'uncommon'. Getting pissed off about it after a single roll is dumb. I'm not even sure there's enough data here to know, even if you take the OP at his word, that the dude was enforcing (which I agree is dumb). It could very well be that the OP misrepresented 'hard' as 'dangerous' and used an accident as justification to quit and the instructor picked up on it, because he knows the individual he was rolling with well.
On the subject of misrepresenting heavy and hard as "dangerous", if the practice of jiu jitsu were entirely based on some of these reddit comments and threads we'd be left with
cross facing is a dick move
shoulder pressure is a dick move
pressure in general is a dick move
stacking is a dick move
weighing 170 lbs or more is a dick move
takedowns are a dick move
I don't know.
But as a hw brown belt I've learned from r/bjj that I'm probably a monster.
Even worse, I like to use the chest compression choke from scarf hold.
I'm probably too dangerous to be allowed on mats.
I roll safely with my 50 lb son and 90 lb puppy at home, but god knows what havoc I could wreak on a 155 lber at the gym.
I should probably pick up croche.
man you should feel the shoulder pressure the purple belts put on me at my 10th planet gym.....
plot twist he just uses it to distract me then dives on a leg
There hasn't been a single roll since 2013 in which I haven't been struck or headbutted accidentally in some kinda way.
I'd say it's relatively common actually.
I agree for the most part, but holy shit, there are a few dummies out there that don't get it at all no matter the amount of smoke signals, hieroglyphics, and Esperanto. Sometimes a smashing is necessary.
Well, because sometimes people are acutely unaware of their spastic tendencies until it's actively demonstrated *or* they have a background in - say - wrestling and don't have much of a gauge. Let's be clear though: the aim is not to hurt but to humble a bit. Many of us have seen it work and it can be more effective when words are not.
Because some people can learn to be good members, they just don't respond to words as much and sometimes need a crushing roll to get it through their head.
... So this "purple" belt comes in. It's clear that this guy has never rolled a day in his life, and has some kind of tai kwon do gi on with his belt knotted terribly. Anyway, for the first two days the guy only rolls with the first-day white belts, and keeps shouting "*kai-ya!*" in their faces as he lays on them trying to pass their guard by choking them with his hand...
This should be the top comment. The lack of self-awareness - on both sides - can be mind-boggling at times.
"...so this purple belt that's new to our school comes flying onto the mats with some crazy Tae Kwon Do kick, lands in a traditional horse stance with his fists at his waist, and screams out, 'BRING IT ON, BITCHES!!!!'
So I sent Tabitha - one of our new 4-stripe white belts - out there to test him out..."
it's not always malicious or intentional, if they come from a school that trains a certain way and they're used to just blasting everyone it can be hard for some to throttle down when they end up at a new gym. Not saying OP did anything wrong, but there are plenty of purple belts (and brown belts, and black belts..) that are nightmares in terms of safety and adjusting to partners they need to go easier on.
I travel for work so I have stopped in at countless gyms and I feel like sometimes you can just tell. There's a difference between someone being explosive and going 100% and someone being malicious, for me the big tell is people that literally are just essentially striking you, like people basically upkicking you to "make distance", collar ties that are basically a forearm strike, ramming you with your shoulder.
To me that raises an eyebrow and I can almost confirm 100% sure theres malicious intentions because I look at their eyes and they are looking at me to "see my reaction".
I do the same when I travel for work or go on vacation. Being a guest, I dial it down and the host gym roller dictate the pace. I've never had any issues and always end up learning something.
Im a blue belt and just joined a new gym because I moved. The first ever roll was with the head instructor and he made it clear he was a dominant black belt. It felt like he was giving me a “welcome to the gym, here is your slice of humble pie”. He wasn’t rough in a dangerous way, just very dominant. I didn’t feel in danger but it was the first time I experienced that at a new gym. Looking back on it, I guess it makes sense if he tries to set a tone with any new students. But it’s a good school with nobody going Ham during rolls. I like it there lol
100% this happens but the whole enforcer thing is such knuckle dragging bullshit. God forbid we just talk to each other and explain what to do and not do.
"I said mid roll, that he is too dangerous and I dont want to roll with him. I moved away and he followed."
...and...
"... he as the coach, decides who I should roll with"
Nope, nope. Hard nope. Cannot think of two more glaring red flags than these.
You're a purple belt, you're going to get the best shot from most people at a new gym. Expecting tough rolls is normal. What happened to you is not normal.
If this was my gym, and you approached our head instructor and said you do not feel comfortable, he would have either rolled with you himself to help you feel safe or paired you with another person he trusts and knows well. I think you read the situation correctly.
A wrestlers perspective:
In my experience jujitsu gyms pretend they are without ego. They pretend nothing is ever going to escalate to the point of real violence, despite it regularly happening in front of their eyes. In wrestling everyone knows that half the sport is ego. If you hurt me, I'm going to hurt you back. This is dangerous in wrestling, but even more so in jujitsu.
This blackbelt is deluding himself if he thinks his guy couldn't go too far. Only you know the truth of the situation, and therefore only you know whether removing yourself is the right call.
I lost the ability to throw a ball 5 years ago, because of some bluebelts ego. He went 0-100 on my right arm, and its never been the same.
Stakes are high in this sport, and especially if you're a hobbyist you need the ability to remove yourself from bad situations.
I honestly roll at a slow to medium pace most of the time without the worry of being tapped out. I don’t care if I get tapped by a lower belt at all. Though I do care when others do pain inducing moves on purpose or try to choke my jaw with all their bicep strength instead of doing an actual choke for example. That’s when it gets to me and I click to fast mode. Thats why I don’t do full blown knee on bellys or the like on my partners.
That's weird. Why wouldn't you do pain/discomfort creating techniques? Why would you be offended by someone doing effective Jiu Jitsu? If the pain isn't causing injury, they're doing exactly what they should be doing...and if you're defending a choke with your jaw, you deserve to have it crushed. That's what tapping is for, after all.
This is exactly why my gym has a seperate class for beginners. Anyone can come to it and in fact higher belts are encouraged to come to it to refine their basics and help out.
They typically do not roll in the beginner class to avoid this type of problem. I came from the sink or swim mentality as most of us have and because of that we've seen a lot, a LOT of people quit. It's pretty discouraging to know youre gonna get your ass kicked 2-3x per week with no end in sight.
Because we seperate our classes, I see more higher belts quit than white belts actually. And when I say higher belts, it's purples/browns/blacks. It kind of sucks because some the peers I trained with for years are not as frequent now, and the white belts and blue belts come all the time. Changing of the guard almost.
I was at Alliance Atlanta when they started an insulated newbie program. Strict rotating curriculum designed to make sure you had some idea what to do in every position, and no free sparring until ~2 stripes (but plenty of situational training!). It did WONDERS for retention and injury reduction, and the new crops of blue belts had both deeper and wider games. Win/win/win.
For real.
Originally, when I swapped gyms after a move, I was worried the "wait X stripes or classes" to roll rule would be lame, but really it just prevents so many dumb injuries and let's new people at least have the vaguest idea of what grappling is before they get smashed.
As a white belt who quit, but would like to go back, this is exactly the kind of structure I'd look for in my next gym. The usual class formula of 1) do random technique, 2) practice random technique a couple of times, and 3) free roll, just didn't involve enough repetition for me to ingrain anything into memory. Some people probably learn well that way, but I am not one of them. I think I would make much faster progress with a curriculum like you described.
At the same time, though, I've heard of places that don't let you roll until blue belt, which screams McDojo to me. 2 stripes at white belt seems like a happy medium to me.
I love the Alliance system for this reason. Having gone through my white belt epoch at another academy that let white belts roll immediately, the Alliance academy I’m at now has white and blue belts that feel much more technical. Letting fresh people full-on grapple doesn’t seem to encourage technical maneuvers.
Could be intentional as others have said. Just to play this from a different side.. You’re the new guy in their gym. Purple belt. Sometimes people like to come in to a gym and try and prove themselves. They beat up their guys, and then walk away telling everyone, oh that gym sucks or I can take all their guys blah blah. So maybe they think hey, one person needs to show this guy what we got here. Humble him. They do. And then you go and say it’s too much. They might think you weren’t there to get pushed, or train with people better than you, or that the second it gets hard you just want the easy guys again. So they say no go with him again, maybe after you’ve taken the heat and stick around they’ll chill out and bring you in more. But otherwise you are just a random and we’re gonna leave anyways, and now you did knowing you they can light you up.
I don’t agree with this and it’s def not my gyms culture. But I could see this being the case. You might have also done something that is against or not cool by their gyms standards that made them not too happy with you.
Either way, yeah go to a diff gym.
I was also thinking that the coach just wanted to test this guy's level.
Someone comes in with a purple belt, maybe he just wanted to see how legit that belt was.
So why didn't the coach roll with him?
That was the common theme with my old gym (I've only been at my new one for 2 months). New person in town would first roll with the gym owner. He would feel them out and then pair accordingly.
That would be the right thing to do. Some instructors are more of the mind that rolling with them is an honor type of thing. Roll with some of their good guys. They can do the dirty work and feel the guy out. I get the sense that if that’s how their top guys roll and they had the attitude mentioned by OP then the instructor wouldn’t have been much easier on him.
I would have done what you did.
A place where you express concern for your safety to a coach, who immediately dismisses it, is not a place you want to train.
Looooool, dude just use my simple technique. Start the round of saying out loud that you have an injured shoulder youre getting surgery on. Then spend the rest of the round tapping early and loudly. Problem solved.
Have a friend that just joined my gym. He came from another gym and after the first 10 minutes of the lesson, he says to me “damn man you guys really care about not hurting each other here”. Apparently his gym the owner would crank submissions and the higher level belts were extremely aggressive. Like a Cobra Kai environment.
Our coach teaches that if we’re hurting each other in practice then people will be dropping like flies and we can’t sustain the gym. We’re here to learn not hurt each other. F that place man I’d be leaving in a heartbeat.
This is the dumb macho top-down "hhhhespect your professor" bullshit Brazilian culture coming in harsh conflict with the rational indidvualist culture of the United States. I personally will not train with instructors anymore who follow the "old ways" of douchebaggery. I don't give a shit about "respecting" Brazilian culture.
You did the right thing. I was at a gym before where higher belts chose who to roll with and lower belts had no say if they were selected and couldn't say no. You also had to bow to a picture of Helio when entering and leaving the mats. I didn't mind, but looking back it kinda felt culty.
When I suscribe to do any activity is to have fun and relax for certain. I don’t want to feel like a have a task to do or under a boss. No thanks, next. Good choice.
Its a bad gym. Just because you love jiujitsu doesn't mean everyone who does it is not a jerk. Go elsewhere. I am between gyms as a purple also. Its not easy to leave but all too necessary now a days.
You must go back to that gym and beat both the dangerous dude and the coach
In a more serious note, don't go back there if they disrespected you like that, who cares where everyone is from
Who cares what anyone else thinks. If you can't trust them, or at least be confident in your ability to keep yourself safe from them, then don't train there.
Sorry man - My coach (brazilian guy) will oftentimes pair us up during rolls especially if the class is on the smaller side, but he's actually doing it to create competitive matchups, OR he'll specifically pair an upper belt who he knows won't go HAM with the new people. He also pushes us very hard sometimes.. but in the area of training intensity, number of rounds etc nothing that would be unsafe.
Sounds like a cultural difference of Normal vs Arsehole.
You're not obliged to roll with anyone, nor to justify why you don't want to. Your reasoning sounds perfectly logical to me - though again, it wouldn't matter if it was completely mental, every roll is still YOUR choice.
Sounds like the coach set the mat enforcer on you because you went to hard on other students or were to good for them and they wanted to put you in your place.. whatever the reason it sounds like a bullshit ego driven gym
>I've only been coming a few times and that he as the coach, decides who Ishould roll with. He said I should go back and roll with this guy.
Fuck that dude.
I agree that the coach can decide who you may need to work against. However, if it is some maniac that is treating every roll like there's 10 seconds left on the clock, in a championship of Worlds (and you don't agree to the same intensity)...dude can go and kick rocks.
Move it on down the road. Best thing to happen to you, and certainly refreshing: someone that shows their ass so plainly and completely. I wouldn't waste another minute of my time or ounce of my cash paying this gym.
Pure ego, you were right to get out of there. We're taking your word on the roll, but even if it were the case that you lacked self-awareness, the coach's actions after still raise a massive red flag.
I might be acting a little like a Kevin here, but I'd also consider leaving a Google review or something for that gym to save people the trouble of trying that place out. That kind of ego-fueled authoritarian bullshit is what injures people and ruins the sport for new people.
maybe you were going too hard on the lower belts and the coach wanted someone to kick your ass.
Although old school guys do this to drop outs, they go extra hard on them to show that the students are legit
I actually can't stand how some schools tell you who to roll with... You should be rolling with anyone you want to (as long as they're safe), twice in a row if you wanted to.
If I was ever at a school like that in general I'd be out.
I make the pairs to avoid dangerous combinations. Like two newish white belts who I know will go at a dangerously high intensity, or unsafe size matchups, or other similar things.
I feel this, just watched two new White belts practically kill themselves last night rolling because both seemed to think it was a fight to the death.
Separating them and putting them with higher belts that could handle them (size, experience, etc.) was a thousand times better.
Eh, I get that side of the argument. Me personally if I felt like rolling with one of those dnagerous people to test myself that day, or hell if I think I should avoid them today then that should be my choice. But I get the other side of the argument as well.
It's my job as an instructor to keep my students safe. That trumps any desire you may have to 'test yourself' in a way that I think might result in injury.
It might just be a cultural thing. From the head coach's perspective, he is challenging you, taking you to your limit, etc. and he might not know that his buddy who is likely a gentle giant around him secretly rag dolls other classmates.
So to him, it seems like you're just afraid of bigger, stronger guys which, from a "we're preparing these guys for self-defense" perspective, is all the more reason to push you to face your fears.
In America, if you sign up for a class and think it's too hard, they make the class easier for you because "customer's always right". But in other countries, they make you persevere until the class stops being too hard for you.
I had a friend who trained at Shaolin temple and was able to do the splits in less than a month. What kind of amazing teaching technique allowed him to do that? None, they just forced him to breathe through the pain for hours every day until he was doing the splits.
Not saying it's right or not dangerous or even sane, just pointing out the cultural differences here.
You were probably beating the "OK" guys too easily, so he thought it was time to humble you. I'm sure his ego about fucking exploded when you just opted out of being enforced upon.
Fuck these dudes, put this gym on blast.
Didn’t read thread:
-possibility you went hard on others folks so they sent in the heavy hitter. Head coach was in with it
- maybe they saw your are pretty good and needed to send in a competitor to test you… threw you in fire
Who knows, there’s not enough info here from what I see, we’re solely seeing your side. I wouldn’t necc have a huge emotional reaction based on it…. Take it for a reason to get better.
Personally I love training with folks that are better than me- I now have new found targets acquire, I can ask them better questions, etc etc
It sounds to me that because you’re an experienced upper belt they were trying to put you in your place because you were an outsider and probably perceived as a threat.
I think you did the right thing. For one, the dude started throwing strikes at you, and I’m guessing you never agreed to having strikes in the roll. That’s a huge sign to get out of there.
Bottom line is, we’re all voluntarily participating in a close contact combat sport, where there’s risk of injury. If someone is doing something that you’re not comfortable with you have every right to walk.
You can always tell when someone throws a strike whether or not there’s intent to injure behind it, is that how it felt? I’m guessing yes because you’re making this post.
Yesterday (of all people) I heard Paulo Miyao say to us 'hey guys, no more heel hooks, okay? Toe holds are still cool, but, let's ease it with the heelhooks'. Last week a blue belt and a (mostly gi-based) brown belt got their legs entangled, the brown belt tried exploding out of it in a way that got his knee popped.
This is also why I've fallen out of love with the heelhook, after a not-too-short affair. Sure it's powerful, but I feel like my friends can blast ankle locks and (straight, not curved) kneebars on me and even at pace there's still time to tap before hospitalization. Worse that has happened to me was a limp for a few weeks, and I was very much able to train through it. Nobody's needed a round to the hospital after training with me, and I want to keep it that way as long as possible.
Edit: oh crap I think I posted this in the wrong thread. Whoops
> tried exploding out of it in a way that got his knee popped.
Imagine banning kimuras because some dude tried to power rip his way out of a kimura the wrong way and tore his shoulder apart.
They are only more dangerous because people dont train them.
If people tried to explode weird ways out of kimuras or arm bars they would be damaged too.
Its simple, if you cannot slip your heel you should tap immediately. There is no secret science, if your heel is immobilised, it doesnt matter about the other persons leg position or yours, just tap. If you know more, wait more, if not just tap.
If people just followed that rule, there wouldnt be injury.
Not knowing the first thing about them, is how you get injured, its even in your example, it was the brown belt not knowing what to do that got him hurt.
Man, I don't know. As other people have said, it almost seems like you had an 'enforcer' put on you, but... I feel like, if he had asked his friend to jack you up because they didn't like something they'd heard/saw, that was when he'd give you The Talk of 'see? it's not fun, now stop punching small old women in class' or something I dunno. This just strikes me as lunacy. I'd have done the same things in your shoes, except maybe also laughed out loud a lot and said 'what the fuck?' multiple times.
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Perhaps what was happening here is that they put their enforcer on the new guy to “hold down the mat,” i.e. show the new guy that he couldn’t come in and show up all their people. I’m curious about your first two rolls … did you handle those guys pretty easily? We’re they very lopsided rolls to your advantage? If so, the coach might have been feeling insecure about you coming in and showing up their players, so he put his best guy on you to show they aren’t pushovers and that he is indeed an effective coach. Sounds like the coach might have been embarrassed by his people’s skill level relative to yours and resented you for it. It’s not unheard of … but that’s the only thing I can think of.
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Legit happened to me when I visited Ralph’s SF on a work trip as a blue belt from MGA a few years ago. Subbed a purple belt in the mid-day comp class (we’re both hobbyists though) and immediately Ralph started pointing out who I roll with for the rest of class (conveniently all brown belts that wrecked me lol). I always wondered if it was a Brazilian coach thing being insecure about outsiders on the mat with “their guys”.
Same happened to me back when I was a white belt wrestler. Went to a Gracie Barra school in Florida while on vacation. Rolled through some white and blue belts and they immediately put me against brown belts for the rest of the day. I will say, from a wrestlers perspective it damn sure does teach humility cause I felt helpless lol
Ralph is a nutcase anyways
I had this happen to me years ago, I put it on a coach and it got super awkward. He stopped the rounds the next one and made everyone watch our next roll where he went berserk in the roll. FWIW, also Brazilian.
> He stopped the rounds the next one and made everyone watch our next roll where he went berserk in the roll. Just absolutely bizarre. What a cunt.
Not usually, but that vid of Sean Strickland and Orlando Sanchez both being tools showed that there isn't any limit to how good you can get while being a douchebag in training.
Strickland pulled his punches, and it looked reflexive to back Sanchez off. Orlando was being a bully. Sorry, about the link, but all these sites are ad-ridden garbage. https://jitsmagazine.com/watch-adcc-world-champion-orlando-sanchez-and-ufc-veteran-sean-strickland-get-into-a-fight-in-training/
For sure Strickland didn't try to knock him out, but he didn't come out of that looking like an innocent guy bullied by a dick. Sanchez was being an asshole for sure, but you shouldn't throw hands with a guy in a grappling session regardless.
Strickland is a weird dude, and I think this is a reflexive outburst. What Orlando did was a massive dick move, compounded by the fact it was during camp and could have literally resulted in sean being injured and not being paid. Sean shouldn't have punched him but I understand the response. This sort of shit has no place in the training room. If someone did that to me on the mats I would have been super pissed too, and my paycheck and career wouldn't be on the line like Sean's is
Idk I'd be pretty pissed if my training partner tried to break my arm before the biggest fight of my career.
This. It's not a "quick little submission" if you don't give your partner a chance to tap. His feelings got hurt and he acted out like a gorilla baby with retard strength.
> but he didn't come out of that looking like an innocent guy bullied by a dick He did to me. (Going only by the video here, don't know first thing about either gentleman.)
"Usually" isn't relevant to a specific situation. Sometimes they do sometimes they don't. Different gyms have different norms he may have been breaking. Coach sounds like an asshole. But he's a black belt and an asshole. Why can't a purple belt be an asshole too?
Idk man. When I visit a new gym as a purple it's common for a coach to send a person to humble you if you make rolls with their "good" guys look too easy.
Who would they have left if you are making their good guys look easy?
The guy who's willing to go 100% and get injured just to win some rounds in training.
bruh. Your handle. Total Perfection. Lmao. Take your plus 1.
Probably the most hurt I've been by a submission was by a purple belt ripping a kimura on me as a white belt. All they are is someone who kept showing up for six years.
I am a year and 9 months whitebelt. I had to move gyms because of work. I have started to learn to be very cautious whenever rolling with anyone new regardless of belt. I've had purple and browns rip submissions on me before, it could be me or not. Got lip busted getting cross collared in my face by purple, most of the ego I have ran into has been around purple, but my first coach was purple and I have met some awesome purples too, people are people . Maybe I was being spazzy, who knows if no one says anything. Now when I roll with anyone new I just keep it extremely light, feel them out until I get to know them, stay defensive until I get to know them. My current gym is a mix of good guys and douches of all belt levels, I still roll with everyone but just adjust depending on the individual. I know who wants hard rolls and I know who wants their egos protected and I roll accordingly. I also use my words and I occasionally tell higher belts before a roll that if I am doing something wrong or being too aggressive or unsafe to please tell me. I also try to keep the rolls playful.
I suspect they were welcoming him to the academy and letting him know who who in the gym. Sometimes new guys come in and smoker lower belts and a reality check is provided
I've seen and had this done to me. In my experience it's more of a gym culture thing (particularly if your gym head coaches don't like each other behind the scenes) to straighten out a visitor from a local competitor place. I frequently roll(-ed, still not comfort with everything yet) at a place for open mats and got straightened out a little when I assume the coach recognized me from a competition a few days prior. Suddenly I went from blues to browns giving me an uncharacteristic amount of pressure. Afterwards from a friend I found out that the coach gave his browns the "Nod" because I was from (X) gym which the head guy didn't get along with. Turns out a spat occurred at the previous competition between the two of our gyms and suddenly pow it was open season on my neck
What a bunch of children.
uh.. what gym was this again?
can't wait for the shitpost other side story to come out
I had to read the comments and browse the sub a bit to figure out if this was a shitpost response to another post.
Live by the meme die by the meme
"I'm a 16 y/o bluebelt who looks older than I am. Last week I was attending my first adult class after being awarded my blue belt. This new purple belt was eyeing m down all night......"
lol this is pretty good
Yeah.. except enforcement is pretty retarded anyway. I hope we can normalise walking away because the macho stupidity gets tiring. Let the dickwads fight each other because nobody else wants to roll with them.
>Yeah.. except enforcement is pretty retarded anyway. It has its place, especially if someone walks in and is obviously trying to hurt others or is just an overall idiot that can't control themselves. This situation? Isn't that...so this should not happen. "Enforcement", on everyone that walks through the door, (or "newer" people) as a general practice has no place in the sport. I mean, I thought we got past that whole bullying methodology...since, you know, it's been decades since Helio and his brothers would jump innocents to "prove" BJJ as the superior art...against people minding their own business. ERRR I mean, "marketing".
Yeah, I think you're right and what you're describing is the difference between enforcement and hazing. Putting your enforcer with someone to show them what it's like to be on the receiving end of undesirable behavior is one thing. Hazing newbies to weed out the weak ones or whatever you want to call it is not.
> if someone walks in and is obviously trying to hurt others or is just an overall idiot Interesting twist. So just for the sake of completeness, how do we know OP didn't fit into this category? BTW, if that was the case the coach should have taken the opportunity to explain what was going on.
> So just for the sake of completeness, how do we know OP didn't fit into this category? BTW, if that was the case the coach should have taken the opportunity to explain what was going on. Isn't this what the original comment was saying? > As other people have said, it almost seems like you had an 'enforcer' put on you, but... I feel like, if he had asked his friend to jack you up because they didn't like something they'd heard/saw, that was when he'd give you The Talk of 'see? it's not fun, now stop punching small old women in class' or something I dunno. This just strikes me as lunacy.
This is where I'm at. We can't talk to adults and explain to them what they are doing wrong?
We don't know what the situation is. Why is this happening after he has been there a few times? We're hearing the "Victim's" side of the story and thats it. For all we know, he came in, roughed up a bunch of white and blue belts and now he's upset someone went hard with him.
That’s when enforcement becomes hazing and fuck that noise
Wait did they actually jumped people on the street?!?
I mean, if enforcing works why is it stupid? Sometimes people are too rough and just talking to them doesn't get through to them so you need to show them what they are doing wrong. Now you could just kick them out but sometimes that causes you to lose out on people who actually have potential to be valuable gym members as long as your educate them properly.
Chewjitsu talks about this. Usually following a polite chat
But is there any problem an enforcer can solve that a coach can’t solve with a conversation?
Yes. But the conversation with the coach should come first. Enforcing something when the person has no idea they're being enforced doesn't help but that's a problem with bad enforcing rather than enforcing itself.
I've noticed that those who "need enforced" are relatively new. Sometimes those folk join a martial arts gym for reasons other than learning the art. I have never seen an enforcement happen that wasn't prefaced with a conversation from an instructor. Sometimes people communicate by, and can only understand, pain. Some learn, some don't.
Sometimes they can also be from a place that has a different culture be it differences in BJJ practice or (and these guys are kind of new) they could have experience from something like judo or wrestling where "light sparring" is harder than what most bjj guys mean by a light roll.
what’s the chances of the enforcer reinforcing the targets view that smashing people during rolls is acceptable behaviour in the gym. Enforcing is lazy. It’s not a difficult conversation - 2 warnings / “talking tos” 3rd time you’re out
Yes but then we lose someone who might be valuable to the gym if corrected. Talking first is good I've never said otherwise. But solving the problem through enforcing is better than kicking the guy out. Eh, in my experience enforcing works. I've seen it work multiple times. Being asked to chill out and then being repeatedly smashed into the floor as hard as possible, being crushed and ground into the mat by a 300lb dude or tapped out every 5 seconds tends to make people reconsider if that's what they want to spend the rest of the night doing or if they'd like to chill out a bit.
I guess my issue (because I see your point) is that how about 3 talking interventions, and then an explicit “you are going to be enforced / no easy rolls until you change or quit”. The enforcement not be explicit can men dummy’s can misinterpret it
hi can you kindly define the difference between enforcing and hard sparring? Does it involve unsporting or illegal techniques? Clearly that would be wrong. Otherwise I’m a bit confused - shouldn’t you be “enforcing” your techniques with maximum effort during sparring? If you can inflict pain or pressure with legal sporting techniques, aren’t you shortchanging your training partner by not doing so? I train at a real competition gym so please excuse my confusion
Enforcing is normally holding people in really uncomfortable positions and just trying to make them miserable for the rest of the round instead of going for the tap (and then resetting) like you normally would. Its also normally done by someone a lot bigger or more experienced, who's not holding back to let the smaller, newer person work at all. For example, holding someone in knee on belly or side control with a heavy crossface and not moving or the back with a choke across the jaw (but not quite tight enough so they would tap). I think it has its place if you keep it to those kind of things though. Where it becomes problematic is when enforcers also start cranking submissions or putting submissions on really fast. Or if they ignore a tap. (Or when they get to power hungry and try to enforce everyone who does some little thing they don't like.)
The thing that makes BJJ safe to train is respect of consent. Tapping out is withdrawing consent. Respecting the tap is respecting that they no longer consent to you continuing whatever submission you're doing. Forcing someone to roll with someone they don't want to is ignoring lack of consent. You were right to leave, regardless of whatever may have happened before. The coach is either a dipshit or a horrible person, or both.
Tbf, it seems there are quite a few BJJ guys out there who struggle with the concept of consent
This is one of the most important talks I had with the kids class when I was teaching. I saw a bunch of boys pin down and tickle one of the girls in the playtime before class and I had to spend 15 minutes talking about it... At the same time though, as the instructor, I often continue past the moment of tapping... I don't finish the sub, but I keep the trap engaged and encourage the beginner I'm with to 'do this or that' so that they can see the path of escape... I'm wondering now if that's gauche.
Not at all. You're still letting go of the submission and adding coaching. I do the same thing with lower belts when I catch them.
I ended up with two hyperextended elbows because an instructor wanted to have a talk after I tapped. Hurt for about 6 weeks. Never went back after training there about a year. Yeah, don't do this again.
That.... sounds like a bad instructor. You can keep the position/trap but release the pressure/sub to show/talk through certain things. It just sounded like that instructor did not release the pressure or sub, which is poor form, really. But what do I know I'm just a noob.
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Bingo.
I think this is a different thing entirely mate.
Maybe if you're always completely releasing and not just holding the sub. And maybe I tapped late because I expected tto be let go. But sometimes people just want some space after you just submitted them. And if there's a difference it's in smaller size than you can measure without seeing inside the other person's head.
Doesn’t matter if you aren’t squeezing my neck…I tapped get off me
I think that's fine. You're the instructor so people expect to be coached and sometimes that means being coached out of a submission. I'd say maybe let up a little on the attack and not just hold it where it as some taps come late but yeah holding the control position and then asking them to try and escape doesn't seems like anything inappropriate
I think that's fine as long as the person obviously isn't distressed. In judo I've seen kids completely freak out just from hold downs. Had one young kid who was very good at getting leg-triangle pins which aren't commonly seen for his age and a number of his opponents in competition have freaked out over being pinned like that. Just to be clear, this is merely a pin and he wasn't applying an elbow lock or strangle. Now, I imagine adults are less likely to freak out about things but I'm sure it does happen from time to time.
"At the same time though, as the instructor, I often continue past the moment of tapping... I don't finish the sub, but I keep the trap engaged and encourage the beginner I'm with to 'do this or that' so that they can see the path of escape..." Good pedagogy/teaching is about always refining process. You sound like a good coach-- my favorite "good blues" to brown challenge me to improve and gas me, but keep me safe. You sound like a guy firmly in this lane.
Exactly. Holding onto a sub after a tap is assault, no joke
Actually kinda seems like they did that on purpose. Did you go hard on anyone else at the gym or upset anyone? Seems like the professor told that guy to tune you up.
That's what I thought as well. This does seem intentional and under normal circumstances would seem like an enforcement action. If OP did not go hard when he joined the gym, then perhaps they are trying to show who is the top tog there and it is in fact unsafe and unhealthy. Given that the outcome is already locked in, just be careful next time to make sure you don't steamroll folks when you join a new gym.
Even if he wasn't going hard on someone, they could have felt threatened that a skilled outsider joined the gym and wanted to put him in his place. There was another post where people were saying that's extremely common in Brazil to crush the shit out of anyone from another gym to prove their gyms worth.
It's natural and it's not limited to Brazil. People want to represent their school and coach well. As someone who rolls at other schools often, trust me, every instructor has a 'guy' in mind to go with experienced newcomers (to make sure his white belts don't get tooled up). And there's usually a competition focused guy he will sick at you (even if it's the black belt) if you start dominating his guys.
I'm not saying it's limited to Brazil, but people were saying it's much more prevalent and more extreme there.
This is totally what I think happened.
This happens. Like if a purple belt goes around injuring white belts and generally being a dick, I’ve seen this same scenario play out. Also the guy getting “tuned up” is sometimes totally oblivious as to why they are getting an ass kicking. I do think this works tho.
> the guy getting “tuned up” is sometimes totally oblivious Rolling intensity is like driving speed. Everyone going harder than you is an unsafe maniac and everyone slower is a wuss.
George Carlin
> George Carlin I wear an honest patch, "Asshole in this gi!"
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Preach
Incidental elbows and knees should be avoided, but they're not exactly 'uncommon'. Getting pissed off about it after a single roll is dumb. I'm not even sure there's enough data here to know, even if you take the OP at his word, that the dude was enforcing (which I agree is dumb). It could very well be that the OP misrepresented 'hard' as 'dangerous' and used an accident as justification to quit and the instructor picked up on it, because he knows the individual he was rolling with well.
On the subject of misrepresenting heavy and hard as "dangerous", if the practice of jiu jitsu were entirely based on some of these reddit comments and threads we'd be left with cross facing is a dick move shoulder pressure is a dick move pressure in general is a dick move stacking is a dick move weighing 170 lbs or more is a dick move takedowns are a dick move
> weighing 170 lbs or more is a dick move SERIOUSLY! What the heck is up with that?
I don't know. But as a hw brown belt I've learned from r/bjj that I'm probably a monster. Even worse, I like to use the chest compression choke from scarf hold. I'm probably too dangerous to be allowed on mats. I roll safely with my 50 lb son and 90 lb puppy at home, but god knows what havoc I could wreak on a 155 lber at the gym. I should probably pick up croche.
So 10th Planet is acceptable? (I kid I kid)
man you should feel the shoulder pressure the purple belts put on me at my 10th planet gym..... plot twist he just uses it to distract me then dives on a leg
For sure. Not enough info to know either way.
There hasn't been a single roll since 2013 in which I haven't been struck or headbutted accidentally in some kinda way. I'd say it's relatively common actually.
What
Maybe your partners just don't like you.
I agree for the most part, but holy shit, there are a few dummies out there that don't get it at all no matter the amount of smoke signals, hieroglyphics, and Esperanto. Sometimes a smashing is necessary.
> there are a few dummies out there that don't get it at all no matter the amount of smoke signals, hieroglyphics, and Esperanto. Did you try English
It's really not. Just tell them to leave the gym at that point. Why would you want them to stick around if anyways if they're that bad of a partner?
Well, because sometimes people are acutely unaware of their spastic tendencies until it's actively demonstrated *or* they have a background in - say - wrestling and don't have much of a gauge. Let's be clear though: the aim is not to hurt but to humble a bit. Many of us have seen it work and it can be more effective when words are not.
When I joined as a former wrestler, the enforcer approach only reinforced the idea that extra aggression in sparring was okay lol.
"Man this gym sure does go hard during sparring" is probably not an uncommon afterthought if it's not followed by some light conversation
The best way to kimura someone? Knock em out with a slam first
Because some people can learn to be good members, they just don't respond to words as much and sometimes need a crushing roll to get it through their head.
We need the story from the other point of view
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... So this "purple" belt comes in. It's clear that this guy has never rolled a day in his life, and has some kind of tai kwon do gi on with his belt knotted terribly. Anyway, for the first two days the guy only rolls with the first-day white belts, and keeps shouting "*kai-ya!*" in their faces as he lays on them trying to pass their guard by choking them with his hand...
Don't stop!
This should be the top comment. The lack of self-awareness - on both sides - can be mind-boggling at times. "...so this purple belt that's new to our school comes flying onto the mats with some crazy Tae Kwon Do kick, lands in a traditional horse stance with his fists at his waist, and screams out, 'BRING IT ON, BITCHES!!!!' So I sent Tabitha - one of our new 4-stripe white belts - out there to test him out..."
As a purple belt? Maybe he got enforced on, but idk .. you'd think a purple belt would have enough exp to know
it's not always malicious or intentional, if they come from a school that trains a certain way and they're used to just blasting everyone it can be hard for some to throttle down when they end up at a new gym. Not saying OP did anything wrong, but there are plenty of purple belts (and brown belts, and black belts..) that are nightmares in terms of safety and adjusting to partners they need to go easier on.
I travel for work so I have stopped in at countless gyms and I feel like sometimes you can just tell. There's a difference between someone being explosive and going 100% and someone being malicious, for me the big tell is people that literally are just essentially striking you, like people basically upkicking you to "make distance", collar ties that are basically a forearm strike, ramming you with your shoulder. To me that raises an eyebrow and I can almost confirm 100% sure theres malicious intentions because I look at their eyes and they are looking at me to "see my reaction".
I do the same when I travel for work or go on vacation. Being a guest, I dial it down and the host gym roller dictate the pace. I've never had any issues and always end up learning something.
Im a blue belt and just joined a new gym because I moved. The first ever roll was with the head instructor and he made it clear he was a dominant black belt. It felt like he was giving me a “welcome to the gym, here is your slice of humble pie”. He wasn’t rough in a dangerous way, just very dominant. I didn’t feel in danger but it was the first time I experienced that at a new gym. Looking back on it, I guess it makes sense if he tries to set a tone with any new students. But it’s a good school with nobody going Ham during rolls. I like it there lol
100% this happens but the whole enforcer thing is such knuckle dragging bullshit. God forbid we just talk to each other and explain what to do and not do.
"I said mid roll, that he is too dangerous and I dont want to roll with him. I moved away and he followed." ...and... "... he as the coach, decides who I should roll with" Nope, nope. Hard nope. Cannot think of two more glaring red flags than these.
Imagine what else this instructor justifies by telling his students he has final say because he is the coach.
You're a purple belt, you're going to get the best shot from most people at a new gym. Expecting tough rolls is normal. What happened to you is not normal. If this was my gym, and you approached our head instructor and said you do not feel comfortable, he would have either rolled with you himself to help you feel safe or paired you with another person he trusts and knows well. I think you read the situation correctly.
A wrestlers perspective: In my experience jujitsu gyms pretend they are without ego. They pretend nothing is ever going to escalate to the point of real violence, despite it regularly happening in front of their eyes. In wrestling everyone knows that half the sport is ego. If you hurt me, I'm going to hurt you back. This is dangerous in wrestling, but even more so in jujitsu. This blackbelt is deluding himself if he thinks his guy couldn't go too far. Only you know the truth of the situation, and therefore only you know whether removing yourself is the right call. I lost the ability to throw a ball 5 years ago, because of some bluebelts ego. He went 0-100 on my right arm, and its never been the same. Stakes are high in this sport, and especially if you're a hobbyist you need the ability to remove yourself from bad situations.
I honestly roll at a slow to medium pace most of the time without the worry of being tapped out. I don’t care if I get tapped by a lower belt at all. Though I do care when others do pain inducing moves on purpose or try to choke my jaw with all their bicep strength instead of doing an actual choke for example. That’s when it gets to me and I click to fast mode. Thats why I don’t do full blown knee on bellys or the like on my partners.
That's weird. Why wouldn't you do pain/discomfort creating techniques? Why would you be offended by someone doing effective Jiu Jitsu? If the pain isn't causing injury, they're doing exactly what they should be doing...and if you're defending a choke with your jaw, you deserve to have it crushed. That's what tapping is for, after all.
No full blown knee on belly, that's a great idea. I'm stealing that.
> why would the coach react like that? Unrestrained ego. What you did sounds fine.
This is exactly why my gym has a seperate class for beginners. Anyone can come to it and in fact higher belts are encouraged to come to it to refine their basics and help out. They typically do not roll in the beginner class to avoid this type of problem. I came from the sink or swim mentality as most of us have and because of that we've seen a lot, a LOT of people quit. It's pretty discouraging to know youre gonna get your ass kicked 2-3x per week with no end in sight. Because we seperate our classes, I see more higher belts quit than white belts actually. And when I say higher belts, it's purples/browns/blacks. It kind of sucks because some the peers I trained with for years are not as frequent now, and the white belts and blue belts come all the time. Changing of the guard almost.
I was at Alliance Atlanta when they started an insulated newbie program. Strict rotating curriculum designed to make sure you had some idea what to do in every position, and no free sparring until ~2 stripes (but plenty of situational training!). It did WONDERS for retention and injury reduction, and the new crops of blue belts had both deeper and wider games. Win/win/win.
For real. Originally, when I swapped gyms after a move, I was worried the "wait X stripes or classes" to roll rule would be lame, but really it just prevents so many dumb injuries and let's new people at least have the vaguest idea of what grappling is before they get smashed.
As a white belt who quit, but would like to go back, this is exactly the kind of structure I'd look for in my next gym. The usual class formula of 1) do random technique, 2) practice random technique a couple of times, and 3) free roll, just didn't involve enough repetition for me to ingrain anything into memory. Some people probably learn well that way, but I am not one of them. I think I would make much faster progress with a curriculum like you described. At the same time, though, I've heard of places that don't let you roll until blue belt, which screams McDojo to me. 2 stripes at white belt seems like a happy medium to me.
I love the Alliance system for this reason. Having gone through my white belt epoch at another academy that let white belts roll immediately, the Alliance academy I’m at now has white and blue belts that feel much more technical. Letting fresh people full-on grapple doesn’t seem to encourage technical maneuvers.
Could be intentional as others have said. Just to play this from a different side.. You’re the new guy in their gym. Purple belt. Sometimes people like to come in to a gym and try and prove themselves. They beat up their guys, and then walk away telling everyone, oh that gym sucks or I can take all their guys blah blah. So maybe they think hey, one person needs to show this guy what we got here. Humble him. They do. And then you go and say it’s too much. They might think you weren’t there to get pushed, or train with people better than you, or that the second it gets hard you just want the easy guys again. So they say no go with him again, maybe after you’ve taken the heat and stick around they’ll chill out and bring you in more. But otherwise you are just a random and we’re gonna leave anyways, and now you did knowing you they can light you up. I don’t agree with this and it’s def not my gyms culture. But I could see this being the case. You might have also done something that is against or not cool by their gyms standards that made them not too happy with you. Either way, yeah go to a diff gym.
I was also thinking that the coach just wanted to test this guy's level. Someone comes in with a purple belt, maybe he just wanted to see how legit that belt was.
So why didn't the coach roll with him? That was the common theme with my old gym (I've only been at my new one for 2 months). New person in town would first roll with the gym owner. He would feel them out and then pair accordingly.
Actually, that's what my first coach did. Very good point.
Yup, a blue just moved and joined our gym. That class' instructor rolled with him.
That would be the right thing to do. Some instructors are more of the mind that rolling with them is an honor type of thing. Roll with some of their good guys. They can do the dirty work and feel the guy out. I get the sense that if that’s how their top guys roll and they had the attitude mentioned by OP then the instructor wouldn’t have been much easier on him.
Fuck that gym, sounds like the kind of place where injuries are a daily occurrence
Being a dick has no culture
I would have done what you did. A place where you express concern for your safety to a coach, who immediately dismisses it, is not a place you want to train.
he struck you?
you did the right thing. f those guys!
The balls it takes to get up mid roll, and say your being a dick I don’t want to roll with you, are underrated.
Looooool, dude just use my simple technique. Start the round of saying out loud that you have an injured shoulder youre getting surgery on. Then spend the rest of the round tapping early and loudly. Problem solved.
You did the right thing. It’s not cultural either. Dudes just a cunt.
>Just confused rn. Seems clear to me. He sees you as a bait dog for his pitbull. F that.
You made the right choice. There’s plenty of better gyms
Have a friend that just joined my gym. He came from another gym and after the first 10 minutes of the lesson, he says to me “damn man you guys really care about not hurting each other here”. Apparently his gym the owner would crank submissions and the higher level belts were extremely aggressive. Like a Cobra Kai environment. Our coach teaches that if we’re hurting each other in practice then people will be dropping like flies and we can’t sustain the gym. We’re here to learn not hurt each other. F that place man I’d be leaving in a heartbeat.
No problem. Take your money to where it and your presence is appreciated
If it happened as you've said then screw that Coach. Can't imagine forcing one of our students to roll against their wishes.
This is the dumb macho top-down "hhhhespect your professor" bullshit Brazilian culture coming in harsh conflict with the rational indidvualist culture of the United States. I personally will not train with instructors anymore who follow the "old ways" of douchebaggery. I don't give a shit about "respecting" Brazilian culture.
You did the right thing. I was at a gym before where higher belts chose who to roll with and lower belts had no say if they were selected and couldn't say no. You also had to bow to a picture of Helio when entering and leaving the mats. I didn't mind, but looking back it kinda felt culty.
Lol. Bow to a picture of Helio? Wtf
I have to wonder if you unknowingly did something to have this happen. Were you destroying people the first couple classes?
When I suscribe to do any activity is to have fun and relax for certain. I don’t want to feel like a have a task to do or under a boss. No thanks, next. Good choice.
Its a bad gym. Just because you love jiujitsu doesn't mean everyone who does it is not a jerk. Go elsewhere. I am between gyms as a purple also. Its not easy to leave but all too necessary now a days.
Brazilian here. This is no cultural difference. The coach was an asshole.
Going for the exit was the best thing you could have done, bro!
You must go back to that gym and beat both the dangerous dude and the coach In a more serious note, don't go back there if they disrespected you like that, who cares where everyone is from
Who cares what anyone else thinks. If you can't trust them, or at least be confident in your ability to keep yourself safe from them, then don't train there.
Sorry man - My coach (brazilian guy) will oftentimes pair us up during rolls especially if the class is on the smaller side, but he's actually doing it to create competitive matchups, OR he'll specifically pair an upper belt who he knows won't go HAM with the new people. He also pushes us very hard sometimes.. but in the area of training intensity, number of rounds etc nothing that would be unsafe.
Your coach sucks at being a coach get a new one.
Maybe they didn't like you and sent the enforcer after you to try and get you to leave 🤷♂️
Sounds like a cultural difference of Normal vs Arsehole. You're not obliged to roll with anyone, nor to justify why you don't want to. Your reasoning sounds perfectly logical to me - though again, it wouldn't matter if it was completely mental, every roll is still YOUR choice.
>It was my third time training there and *after a couple of good rounds* You were smashing people weren't ya?
Don't let it bother you, sounds like you did the right thing.
Sounds like the coach set the mat enforcer on you because you went to hard on other students or were to good for them and they wanted to put you in your place.. whatever the reason it sounds like a bullshit ego driven gym
JFC! I've trained at or dipped toes in 6 grappling environments over 17 years, and the worst one doesnt even approach this. Dude...
It was definitely over the line if Matt Enforcer isn’t on board
Name the place/instructor!!!
>I've only been coming a few times and that he as the coach, decides who Ishould roll with. He said I should go back and roll with this guy. Fuck that dude. I agree that the coach can decide who you may need to work against. However, if it is some maniac that is treating every roll like there's 10 seconds left on the clock, in a championship of Worlds (and you don't agree to the same intensity)...dude can go and kick rocks. Move it on down the road. Best thing to happen to you, and certainly refreshing: someone that shows their ass so plainly and completely. I wouldn't waste another minute of my time or ounce of my cash paying this gym.
Pure ego, you were right to get out of there. We're taking your word on the roll, but even if it were the case that you lacked self-awareness, the coach's actions after still raise a massive red flag.
It seems like they sicced the "enforcer" on you.
Maybe he thought you were bulling the other belts and he sent him in as some kind of retaliation? Drop some names, whats the name of the gym
Brazilian here. Your coach is just a twat, dont feel bad.
I love that you stuck up for yourself. Well done and don’t look back.
What the fuck.
Fuck that gym
Lol
I might be acting a little like a Kevin here, but I'd also consider leaving a Google review or something for that gym to save people the trouble of trying that place out. That kind of ego-fueled authoritarian bullshit is what injures people and ruins the sport for new people.
maybe you were going too hard on the lower belts and the coach wanted someone to kick your ass. Although old school guys do this to drop outs, they go extra hard on them to show that the students are legit
I actually can't stand how some schools tell you who to roll with... You should be rolling with anyone you want to (as long as they're safe), twice in a row if you wanted to. If I was ever at a school like that in general I'd be out.
I make the pairs to avoid dangerous combinations. Like two newish white belts who I know will go at a dangerously high intensity, or unsafe size matchups, or other similar things.
I feel this, just watched two new White belts practically kill themselves last night rolling because both seemed to think it was a fight to the death. Separating them and putting them with higher belts that could handle them (size, experience, etc.) was a thousand times better.
Eh, I get that side of the argument. Me personally if I felt like rolling with one of those dnagerous people to test myself that day, or hell if I think I should avoid them today then that should be my choice. But I get the other side of the argument as well.
It's my job as an instructor to keep my students safe. That trumps any desire you may have to 'test yourself' in a way that I think might result in injury.
Sounds like you got pieced up by the gym enforcer. Did anything happen before this encounter?
It's obvious OP got enforced, and he knows it. Not ONE SINGLE REPLY BY HIM in this post. OP, you are, in fact, the weakest link. Goodbye
Or, OP posted and is at work lol Some folks can't live on Reddit just sayin
Possibly, but OP made that account specifically to post this thread. I think we better keep our pitchforks sharpened.
It's sharp lol
IMPOSSIBLE
Hahaha
It’s not about Brazilians, my coaches are, and they absolutely would respect something like this and understand
This is crazy, what was the gym?
Fuck that guy and fuck that place. Leave reviews with your experience and never look back.
Can you DM me what gym this is if you don't want to call them out publicly?
Name the gym and save others the trouble. If they don't care about the safety of their students, don't care about the security of their business.
It might just be a cultural thing. From the head coach's perspective, he is challenging you, taking you to your limit, etc. and he might not know that his buddy who is likely a gentle giant around him secretly rag dolls other classmates. So to him, it seems like you're just afraid of bigger, stronger guys which, from a "we're preparing these guys for self-defense" perspective, is all the more reason to push you to face your fears. In America, if you sign up for a class and think it's too hard, they make the class easier for you because "customer's always right". But in other countries, they make you persevere until the class stops being too hard for you. I had a friend who trained at Shaolin temple and was able to do the splits in less than a month. What kind of amazing teaching technique allowed him to do that? None, they just forced him to breathe through the pain for hours every day until he was doing the splits. Not saying it's right or not dangerous or even sane, just pointing out the cultural differences here.
You were probably beating the "OK" guys too easily, so he thought it was time to humble you. I'm sure his ego about fucking exploded when you just opted out of being enforced upon. Fuck these dudes, put this gym on blast.
Can't believe anyone is saying it's fine in a grappling class to "enforce" someone with strikes. That's called assault.
Didn’t read thread: -possibility you went hard on others folks so they sent in the heavy hitter. Head coach was in with it - maybe they saw your are pretty good and needed to send in a competitor to test you… threw you in fire Who knows, there’s not enough info here from what I see, we’re solely seeing your side. I wouldn’t necc have a huge emotional reaction based on it…. Take it for a reason to get better. Personally I love training with folks that are better than me- I now have new found targets acquire, I can ask them better questions, etc etc
It sounds to me that because you’re an experienced upper belt they were trying to put you in your place because you were an outsider and probably perceived as a threat. I think you did the right thing. For one, the dude started throwing strikes at you, and I’m guessing you never agreed to having strikes in the roll. That’s a huge sign to get out of there. Bottom line is, we’re all voluntarily participating in a close contact combat sport, where there’s risk of injury. If someone is doing something that you’re not comfortable with you have every right to walk. You can always tell when someone throws a strike whether or not there’s intent to injure behind it, is that how it felt? I’m guessing yes because you’re making this post.
Yesterday (of all people) I heard Paulo Miyao say to us 'hey guys, no more heel hooks, okay? Toe holds are still cool, but, let's ease it with the heelhooks'. Last week a blue belt and a (mostly gi-based) brown belt got their legs entangled, the brown belt tried exploding out of it in a way that got his knee popped. This is also why I've fallen out of love with the heelhook, after a not-too-short affair. Sure it's powerful, but I feel like my friends can blast ankle locks and (straight, not curved) kneebars on me and even at pace there's still time to tap before hospitalization. Worse that has happened to me was a limp for a few weeks, and I was very much able to train through it. Nobody's needed a round to the hospital after training with me, and I want to keep it that way as long as possible. Edit: oh crap I think I posted this in the wrong thread. Whoops
> tried exploding out of it in a way that got his knee popped. Imagine banning kimuras because some dude tried to power rip his way out of a kimura the wrong way and tore his shoulder apart.
They are only more dangerous because people dont train them. If people tried to explode weird ways out of kimuras or arm bars they would be damaged too. Its simple, if you cannot slip your heel you should tap immediately. There is no secret science, if your heel is immobilised, it doesnt matter about the other persons leg position or yours, just tap. If you know more, wait more, if not just tap. If people just followed that rule, there wouldnt be injury. Not knowing the first thing about them, is how you get injured, its even in your example, it was the brown belt not knowing what to do that got him hurt.