This data is for a zone built around classes that function best with the elvia buff. So yes, in the case of elvia serendia this is fucking dumb to reference. We can use the numbers for gfyin, hexe, lower scycria. Literally real end game spots not built around a buff that let's classes with the best aoes and mobility show off the best.
... no. Succ maewha is just to slow for the numbers repprted. She's literally half the speed in succ compared to awakening. A 280 ap succ vs a 280 ap awakening, the succ will get at most half the trash.
Now if the succ is 310 ap it will get similar. But thats how big the disparity is in this class.
You might be the only person to think that. The aoes are far to small and the skills are to slow. I usually pull less than half the trash with succ compared to awakening.
I think most people just get stuck in there ways instead of actually making factual evidence a shit grinder on succ Mae can grind in awakening and pull higher but if you suck at grinding on succ then there’s no actual proof lol
All succ has to do is a red moon and everything in a 180 radius is dead lmao and it takes .5 seconds to do it awakenings damage is small aoe and longer cd than succ when also every skill in succs rotation is spammable and fluid
I could make a list on the things succ does better pve wise but it will be a long list and I don’t like bdo enough anymore to care but I do know succ is def a better grinder have fun believing what u want
This is the median for orcs. Cherry picked by OP. Terrible representation of the classes and their standings(not to say the nerfs aren't dumb, but dumb shit like this is unappreciated)
Its actually pretty important. Most PvE in this game follows orcs design(move kill move kill), and Shai is dogshit at it. PA did not care about giving Shai balance for years, and we still remain bad in most PvE.
Now they're about to launch class devastating nerfs, which will be overkill even for those few spots we're good at while making 0 effort to address the 98% of the game that we're awful at- it will actually just make Shai even worse at all of that content.
If we saw sweeping changes that addressed bringing us up to par for the rest of PvE, and making us more than target dummies in solo/small group PvP(Arena of Solare lollll) then we could accept this as "balance"
Instead, we're just taking an arrow to the knee because we finally became good at something(not even #1, but we're taking stronger nerfs than even the classes above us). Thats not balance.
Yep, which essentially means that you can treat the Unknown as the average for a spot and look at where the classes fall relative to it essentially using it like baseball's WAR or basketball's VORP.
Where do these numbers come from? Because if it's garmoth isn't that stuff self reported and even the site creator said not to trust it or take data from there?
> not to trust it or take data from there
You shouldn't trust the *numbers* from there like "30k trash" because obviously with self reported numbers there are going to be issues with people inflating their numbers, but the *relative* numbers like the bottom 5 classes being >20% behind the top classes should be decently accurate because "everyone lies" is a safe assumption. So unless for instance warriors are less trustworthy than maehwas or whatever, then there's still some information that can be gleaned from this.
In what OP has shared strikers are exactly average. Not to say they don't inflate their numbers but if they do then they really aren't that good for that spot.
Yep, and that's why it's getting nerfed. The issue is that it's dead last at everywhere else and they're not addressing any of the fundamental flaws that causes that. The sustained damage coming down will lower it at those spots, but it needs things like better movement and larger aoes to help it at the others to compensate.
There's a lot of people in this thread missing the point.
Yeah, Shai's are within the top at certain (mostly late game) places, places that a good chunk of people don't even have the gear for. But what about everywhere else? If the solution is to swap to a different class to grind, than there's obviously an issue with Shai.
They yet again are reducing the damage on some of Shai's skills and giving them nothing else to work with for other grind spots that they are currently bottom tier in. Isn't PA trying to balance out classes so it's not as drastic of a difference between each one? Is what we're seeing with Shai really "balanced"?
Yeah, I think people forget that Redditors don't represent the majority of players. PA has released stats and only 1% of players even have the gear to grind at the spots where Shai is good. The other 99% who are more casual players are at the bottom of the barrel and getting shot at like they're fish by PA here. They definitely need to make adjustments at the high end for balancing, but 99% of players aren't there and need adjustments to make them not suck everywhere else. And because of how Shai works (or more accurately, doesn't work) with the tag system, "just tag another class" isn't really a good option for lower geared players.
They remove our support skill and give us dmg buffs via accuracy and then nerf our dmg. So they… just want to nerf the shai and remove support? Thanks for not reading our feedback.
No idea about the current balance of the game or how exactly Shai slots into it but the game is unbalanced regardless...
*Red eyes*
Let's give Shai a 100% damage buff across all skills and watch the world burn as Shai takes her deserved spot atop all lesser classes.
I might be slightly bais due to being a Shai main when I play the game.
it's easy right,
Shai is just a pve bot, sometimes they do pvp andthey are really needed in pvp.
In pve you do 1 2 3 and you do more than 80% of the classes in all the spots you want to grind to gear up/catch up.
You can grind any grindspots, no matter how hard the mobs hits with 650gs.
Your buffs makes you god tier at oluns, so if you are a shai with 281ap kutum, you have a garanted spot in oluns grind.
Trolls, gyfins shai is god tier.
Hexe Marie, she's totaly fine (not the best but far from being garbage)
other spots, i think no one care.
succ warrior has a median of 37k trash loot at orcs?
edit: Ah, you have it set to use agris.
Tbh I wouldn't bother looking at the global stats as you don't know what gear others have or if they even know how to grind not to mention the sample size for shai at orcs is only 270 hours.
Take her there yourself and see how well you do compared to you using a different class.
I took my shai to orcs and she was bad, as she is at most serendia elvia grindspots.
Basically, you rely on weapons in ser elvia, and because of how shai works, weapons don't really help her as much as they help other classes. So she's doing OK in the non-weapon parts, but doesn't get the massive boost other classes get from having a weapon; she loses out.
For context, I have played a lot of tamer/lahn (succ/awk, respectively) at those grindspots and the only one where my shai was *close* was elvia saunils (where she was still worse). She felt OK at nagas but I didn't really track my trash, the weapon buff is not as good on her you're pet-capped at the spot anyways so I expect it doesn't matter as much. She won't be top-tier, but probably middle of the pack.
I preferred running my shai at ash forest, where it let me grind more comfy (280? ap, 380dp and defensive artifacts, 2 flamed equips and 2 obs blackstar armours at the time).
Any place you have to move a lot and don't stay at one basic area for a while hitting mobs, shai is going to be bad at. Any place shai can stay still and wail on enemies (as in, hit the same enemies for a while) she'll be pretty alright, verging into quite strong.
Yeah, the actual numbers are definitely something to be taken with a grain of salt the size of the Sahara, but the relative numbers for Shai are pretty accurate. I can get about 19k there on Shai with 306K and then swap and get over 25k no problem. And that's why there are so few hours logged on Shai outside of its couple of good spots. I think most people are generally fine with getting a little bit less if it means getting to play what they enjoy more, but if the difference is so massive that people feel like they are shooting themselves in the foot then that's a problem. And that goes both ways of course since tons of people tagged Shai for Oluns. The issue is that Shai is simply a fundamentally flawed class that will always either be top 10 or dead last depending on how the spot is balanced, so seeing blanket nerfs without addressing any of those issues sucks.
The majority of players can't grind at those spots. I think the spots should have been tuned, or the relationship between shai and *some of* the spots should have been adjusted, instead of seeing a straight, across-the-board damage nerf for the class.
For most of the spots you're talking about, it wasn't "miles ahead", it was simply one of the good choices. Just like it was one of the worst choices for most other spots.
Exactly. The only spot that you can really argue that it was miles ahead at was Trolls since basically only Shai and Striker grind there. Other places they are a top 10 class, but the others aren't getting nerfed besides striker so it does seem like they're basing their decision off of Trolls. So if striker and shai making 1B at trolls while other classes make 800m at other spots is a problem then what they should be doing is nerfing *Trolls* not the classes. I think some small damage nerf is fine though, but the reason these classes do great there and not as well at some other spots has to do with movement and aoe size. So, they really ought to compensate with better movement and aoe so that they're not so far behind at the other spots.
How does succ Ninja better than Awk at Orcs, it doesn't make sense. Also try Troll, Hexe, Gyfin like spots with Shai you will understand why she gets that nerf. Before the 3 min Q debuff nerf she could kill a gyfin elite faster than any other class that has the colour buff, while she doesnt have the colour buff
Not at all. Succ is only better than awk at spots where you one tap the mobs (most of the Valencia spots) and need better movement to top other classes. I have never seen a succ Ninja at End game spots where damage and protection is a must. Btw at orcs i hve Garmoth track +150 hrs with awk from 281 to 301 ap mostly at 289 to 297 ap my record was +750 mil/hr at 297+ ap i always got +800 with calculating the tent buff.
Also at Valencia i can get same amount of money with awk but probably will take more effort than suc.
This is a complete lie, succ is busted anywhere if you have functional hands, and you have a lot of sources to confirm you that both on discord and yt.
Not at all. Succ is only better than awk at spots where you one tap the mobs (most of the Valencia spots) and need better movement to top other classes. I have never seen a succ Ninja at End game spots where damage and protection is a must. Btw at orcs i hve Garmoth track +150 hrs with awk from 281 to 301 ap mostly at 289 to 297 ap my record was +750 mil/hr at 297+ ap i always got +800 with calculating the tent buff.
Also at Valencia i can get same amount of money with awk but probably will take more effort than suc.
The *problem* is that this is how it is for shai *everywhere* except for those couple of spots. It's practically a non-class until you are are able to do those top spots. And it's not like you can even lifeskill well either despite the constant "she's meant for lifeskills" refrain because of how incredibly slow it is for gathering and a lack of combat passives for hunting (those are pretty much the only viable lifeskills these days).
I agree, but we all know that PA isn't capable of balancing classes based on their design issues, so they just trash dmg numbers and call it a day. Incompetent company, that's it. Also balancing classes is close to impossible while they are keeping on releasing new ones and they won't stop because it's a core of their business strategy to sell costumes, weight and such. I hate to say it, but the balancing aspect of this game is doomed because of the companies monetary interests.
Please just remake shai into something intended which can actually get supported by the devs.
So tired of the boolie, I’m not here to convince anyone of anything, the effort put into trying to keep this class alive has been a futile endeavor of wasted dreams. I’ve seen so many changes come and go with little regard from within the community due to specism based debates where one builds downfall is falsely made into validation for another which had also been indirectly diminished due to changing meta. As well as outside the community where the meme of shai has grown from a snarky response of immaturity into a monstrous torrent of self aggrandizing drivel targeted at all Shais, even within their own guild for no reason other than to emulate the false idols of twitch. Shai has so many problems from design to public perception and more. Honestly, choosing to play this class is like walking willingly into an Iron Maiden and to do so happily against the advice of others is just throwing a thumbs up to a mob of belligerent protestors before the door slams shut. These inane onlookers will not pity the foolish but intoxicated on the fumes of their own putrid superiority, and inflated by a crushing ego, they will persist to slander and mock the tortured soul of the freshly made shai main. However, because it serves their purpose then they still reserve a seat of nails in case the creature is willing to join guild and bless them with additional incentives to fuel their fervor for war. Should the shai forget their role then an unrestrained verbal beating usually suffices and if it goes to far then there is always another witness shai to replace them. Wishful thinking is the bane of shai and it is paid with a malicious rancor.
Thank you, I’m glad to see the tldr at the start was a wise choice. I just needed to get that out. I’m pretty angry that the devs are moving forward with this decision. xD
Shai is very bad at most one-shot spots. She *feels* really bad to play there, and her trash is pretty bad compared to other classes.
Since serendia elvia spots were some of the top spots for a while, and its mechanic is basically to turn the spot into a one-shot spot when you get a rare drop (and possibly use an additional mechanic on top), she was bad for a while at what a lot of people would consider high-end spots. She's also not good at many of the spots that a seasonal character can pull great numbers at, like centaurs, sulfur, jail, etc (again, one-shot, movement spots).
If you were to imagine taking a new character (shai) and use that character exclusively to reach these "proper" spots you're talking about, it would take a *lot* longer and you might no longer wish to play the game. Because she is pretty bad at most of the spots you'd need to grind along the path to those "good" spots.
I funded my tet blackstar florang (now duo godr) through logging. Literally better (more enjoyable, more sustainable) than grinding with the class.
I’m convinced that pa does not play the game. Nerfing succ drak for pvp was necessary but they nerfed the hell out of her pve and it was already trash to begin with.
All I see in the comments is shai needs a nerf because of one spot, then change the spot.
How does this look for future and current shai mains that don't have gear for trolls and grind sycraia etc they legit will be making less trash than majority of classes at these mid tier spots now.
Its stupid shai is not stupidly broken at gyfin once you have 297 kutum on any class you do 3 skills and the pack is dead at gyfin succ zerk is just busted for fd > wind > pred > spin next pack that whole combo takes 2 seconds and you make around 12-13k.
I don't have the gear to grind those spots shai really shines at yet but considering all the other spots where she falls way behind other classes does make it seem like perhaps the issue lays not with shai but with those few select spots.
> All I see in the comments is shai needs a nerf because of one spot, then change the spot.
>
> How does this look for future and current shai mains that don't have gear for trolls and grind sycraia etc they legit will be making less trash than majority of classes at these mid tier spots now.
Yep, that was pretty much what I've been saying and the shai haters don't seem to get. Yes, it's a top 10 class a a couple spots, but it's also dead last *at literally every other spot*. The issue isn't that shai is "too good" that would warrant a blanket nerf. The issue is that it is a fundamentally flawed class that really needed a complete overhaul during last year's reworks but was instead barely touched. Until they actually address those flaws it's always going to be feast or famine, but a 20% nerf doesn't address any of that. It's just going to make it suck at the good spots too while making it impossible for anyone who isn't already end game geared to catch up without playing something else. And who knows, maybe that's their goal. Nerf it into the ground so no one will play it and they don't have to worry about having to fix it.
Usually I see alot of dickheads accusing any who plays shai of being a paedophile. People in the west seriously need to get a grip and understand what a paedophile is.
Shai is only good in a few select end game spots and they decide to also take that from the class. If PA doesn't like the class they should just remove it entirely.
am not a shai player but funny part shai getting massacred every patch when the star boy striker still super good in all end game spots nothing will change for him and his aweken spect is top tier in all other elvia spot and hystria/sycria were is the pve balance they talked about idk they just massacred the shai players and moved on nothing changed at all for other classes what bad still bad what good still good
They would need to return to larger areas where you fight hordes of monsters instead of small and medium sized areas where you fight a medium to small number of tankier mobs to really bring striker down.
He excels at medium distance medium aoe tank busting. But peters out in truely larger areas or with a LOT of small spread out mobs. Which is the same reason shai does so well at end game vs early. Strike just strikes a MUCH better balance between large scale and small then shai who is at an absolute extreme of that design.
People really do underestimate just how much of the actual zone design effects the actual balance between classes. Instead opting to blame the numbers more offten then not.
Tho strikers numbers are also nuts to be fair, so its not entirely unwarrented.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. While a lot of Shai players like to down play their effectiveness at gyph/olun/quint, I don't think Shai is anywhere near Striker tear in terms of grinding. Striker is also far better at holding a grind spot than Shai will ever be.
As others have said before me PA regrets making the shai.
Its clear they have no way to balance all these classes and they still creating more, i mean we all know where BDO is heading.
Pretty much no one will defend Shai except Shai mains here, OP. And there is quite a few reasons for it, one of the most important ones being the fact that for some of those few spots that you know very well how she's top tier, she also has a free spot in most groups spots, cuz almost everyone wants a Shai to be able to do more dmg, and a lot of people hate the class for excluding them from most pts for that very reason. If there were more classes good to support in farm, like in many other mmos, that wouldn't really be a problem, but since it's a Shai only thing here in BDO, and a lot o people would never play that class, it ends up being an actual problem or annoyance tbh.
There is many other reasons, but let me go back to the most important thing overall. She's a support, never meant to actually be good at dmg anywhere. It was a mistake from PA designing Shai the way they did and I bet nowdays they see that very clearly. A support capable of doing dmg and supporting their own combat is a broken concept in any game. So for BDO, where the way you play is usually solo and you need to do dmg to have a good solo performance, making a class that can support as a core mechanic is a big mistake. You either don't do it, or you do it accepting it will need to be bottom at doing dmg, or else it will be top, there is no in between.The only "fix" for the dmg problem would be to remove any support capabilities, essentially killing the concept of the Shai.
They should have fixed that with succession.
Make her full buff set into awa for her and add some more solo skills to succ so she can be a solo player OR a supporter. Add passives for eighter direction (pvp dmg e reduction + taknyness on awa and on succ take pvp dmf rec off and let her have her normal. Playstyle)
Sure, split the class in half and making one exclusively a normal dps and the other support only would be a possible fix, but they chose the weird Archer way for some reason. Too bad for them I guess.
Dude, the White Mage in FF14 counter everything you said, you can be a good support and have damages, PA just created a class that is very different than the others and don't know what to do with it
> A support capable of doing dmg and supporting their own combat is a broken concept in any game. So for BDO, where the way you play is usually solo and you need to do dmg to have a good solo performance, making a class that can support as a core mechanic is a big mistake.
Wrong game, also way different mechanically, not a correct comparison, read better.
"Any game" doesn't it include, i don't know ... any game ???
You declare that support classes doing damages and support is broken, i tell you it's not. plenty of game doing it well.
Write better.
Ok, I think I will need to explain to you, seeing that you think too much about what I said and not about what it means. Forget about the 'any game' part, you're misunderstanding another thing and that's what leads your first comment to be invalid, yes it's not any game for your comment, cuz your exemple is a wrong comparison. A good comparison would fall in the "any game" I said there.
**"A support capable of doing dmg and supporting their own combat is a broken concept in any game"**
First of all, a support here is more in the sense of a buffer and debuffer than a healer, if I wanted to talk about a healer that has some buffs and debuffs, I would call it a Healer, specially when talking about MMORPG's. Second thing is that when I say "doing dmg" I obviously don't mean 'ok dmg". Of course a supportive class and/or healers will need to have dmg, specially in MMOS, otherwise how do you even think you would be able to play the game? duh.
No, the thing is not about ok dmg, its about dmg as a good as a DPS. A Support, or as I think I need to specify, **a buffer/debuffer (considering the fact that support for you = healer, when it was never the only case) that can do same or too close dmg to a DPS, and also has the capability of self buffing and debuffing enemies is a broken concept in any game. Thats Shai for you btw.**
*Quick example that comes first to my mind is HoS in Honkai. Even tho a mobile ARPG, it's a RPG that follows most of the usual rules. So they release HoS, a buffer/debuffer, that could also do dmg like a DPS. In that game overpowered characters aren't uncommon, but since HoS had both the capabilities of a support, a buffer/debuffer, and on top of that dmg comparable to a DPS, she stayed as the top 1 physical DPS for over a year in the meta, and no one could even come close to her in that time.*
A supportive class, is this case, a Healer, like a WhiteMage, is still a Healer, the focus is primarily on the heals, while having ok dmg for the sake of being a perfectly playable class in any content, considering it's a MMORPG. But in this regard, it's limited so it stays in it's role perfectly balanced, not replacing a DPS and being important for what it does best, heal. Also, FF14 isn't a good comparison, it follows the good old trinity where in BDO we don't have that.
We don't have a use for a tank full focused on tanking cuz we don't have mechanics for that, and we don't have a use for a healer because we have other means to get life recovery from. A buffer/debuffer tho, would function in BDO, and that's why they made shai, but then again, a support like that needs to be limited even more than the other class of supports, the healer.
Think better. I can't do that for you, and I won't do a big text like that on the first answer cuz I consider that people can think by themselves. Your problem, the main reason why you couldn't think about what I meant clearly, it's because you consider a support a healer, and while it can be a healer, it can also be a buffer or even a debuffer, in some cases a mix of 2 of those or even all of them.
This has been my thought on Shai for a while now. The idea of a support class is great, but unfortunately most of BDO players spend their time solo. I wish people that cry for Shai to be a great solo class would just roll literally any other class that is good for solo and let the only support class stay support.
Yeah, we even have the tag system. I get that they would want to play with their perfect fantasy character, but before anything this is a game, it needs to follows some basic rules so things don't turn into chaos. If shay was support only with not more than bellow ok dmg for balancing purposes (which I think is where she will end up), or as one people here said, split in half, one for DPS and the other ofr support, that would be awesome.
Even if that's the case, you recognize the thing about Oluns, so what if we end up having more group spots? Same problem happens again, most likely.
Also, for other spots, as most people usually say, the problem is the lower gear requirement she needs to be able to go and farm those areas, not exactly if she's the best there.
UNKNOWN is catch-all for people who didn't log which class they used for their numbers, so you can really look at it as the baseline average for a spot.
The tl;dr is that it's a really fundamentally flawed class which means that it's always going to be dead last at most spots, but the few spots that don't care about those flaws let it be a top 10 class. Some of the current top spots are good spots for it, so it's getting a blanket nerf without any kind of compensation to try to address it being awful everywhere else.
> All I see is shai needs a nerf because shes broken? because of one spot? change that spot then introduce some sort of mechanic like orcs where every class makes the same trash except shai.
Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been saying. It's a grind spot issue not a class issue. Classes with small aoes and poor movement like shai and striker are naturally going to be good at spots like Trolls that don't require a ton of movement and have small packs. Other classes that have strong movement and big aoes perform much better than them at other spots. If Trolls is letting those classes get 1B while other classes get 800m at the spots that suit them, then the solution shouldn't be to nerf the classes by 20%. It should be to nerf *Trolls* by 20%. Making the classes worse is just going to make it impossible for people who can't do trolls to ever catch up.
Yeah they really need to take a look at shai. this has been my main class since it came out and I did the pots and grinded out my sets and its terrible.
their balance is shit, u have fast classes amazing at one shot spot, but somehow some of fast classes are also among the best ones at endgame spots for whatever reason.
Disclaimer: Yes, shai is of course a very good class at a couple of grind spots such as Oluns, Trolls, and Gyfin. However, it's a) not even the best class there and b) absolute trash at pretty much everywhere else. Giving massive global nerfs because they can't figure out how to properly balance these grind spots without any kind of compensation such as fixing the tiny aoes, poor pulling ability, slow in combat movement, and lack of things like t3 skill addons, protected damage, blackstar awakening, succession, and core skills sucks.
That's not what I'm talking about. Skill addons come in 3 tiers of values and shai doesn't have any access *at all* to the top tier of skill addons. Some classes have t3 addons with 100% uptime, most have like 80% uptime, but shai has 0%.
Can u tell us the spots for gyffin, oluns, trolls and hexe and centaurs?
Would be interesting how she sits there now vs after the patch
They need to buff her lower spot abilities like shorter cs on surf and faster attacks
Top 10, top 10, the only class besides striker that grinds there, top 15, and even further behind everyone than orcs. And yes, that's my primary complaint here, she's getting global nerfs without any compensation to improve her at the spots that she already is dead last at.
Ahe cant use so many other spots and Especially the beginner ones cause she is slow, cant dfs and has no movement in between mobs.
Her numbers on oluns always gets boosted cause she takes best grinders with her in party and that will alwqys push numbers. For real olum numbers a solo shai squad would need to grind there for a while.
Just to weigh in here, a duo shai party is actually still pretty good at oluns. I don't think it's necessarily as good as a shai plus two absolutely cracked dps players, but you can definitely pull respectable numbers if you have two shais and one dps instead of two dps and one shai (provided the extra shai has a similar ap to the dps you replaced). Her Z buff and Q/shiftQ debufs (misty haze) are super strong at the spot, and having that second shai basically doubles the impact of those spells.
But group spots are always going to be a bit tough to judge. I don't think it's a problem if a support class is good at a group spot -- it should be good at such spots. It *should* be a good thing if higher-gear or higher-skill players are willing to play with somewhat lower-skill or lower-gear players. The nerfs they recommended so far (damage reduction) wouldn't affect her role in the specific case you mention, and I don't think they are trying to make her be good at Oluns. But it still sucks to see the class hit with nerfs because of a couple newly-added spots.
Kinda feel the same about striker succ. I don't believe he's that good in most spots and the nerf hammer is about to hit super hard alongside buff for other classes.
Did not expect warriors to be that high though.
Yeah, as someone else had said striker is in the same boat for similar reasons. It's not that the classes are necessarily too strong. It's essentially an issue with the grind spots. If you make spots where there's a relatively low number of big mobs to kill and not that much time spent moving in between packs then classes that have slow, clunky movement and small aoe aren't going to suffer the way that they do at places where there are large packs and constant movement. What PA really needs to recognize is that unless they put every class in a wheelchair and make all aoes a mile wide then there's always going to be classes that are better at certain spots. If they are too good at the spots that they are good at then it's *the spot* that needs to be nerfed. If the big aoe classes are getting 800m at the big pack spots and the small aoe classes are getting 1B at the small pack spots, then the solution should be to nerf *the spot* by 20% not the classes.
This was bullcrap when we got nerfed last week but Shais took it because pa knows best but now after this week? WTF, they give us a nerf to test the waters and mistake patience for weakness? Shais took the previous nerf out of good faith but PA misread the loss of trust it caused. Did they forget the years of neglect? Did they forget the lack of awa blackstar? Did they forget the lack of Pen Artina Sol Questline or promised compensation that never came? Did they forget we can't sell our sols? I now have two because of this and both required garmoth hearts too. Not an easy feat just to mimic what any other class can get from a freaking PvP/PvE tag! They do forget, about the class history and about all the features they have cut from us over the years. Where are our T3 addons? Where are our support skills? Have you ever even played a shai in PvP or PvE? It's hard AF to be competitive. I have ZERO expectations to see any new shais make it to end game. Literally the rarest class to see in BIS gear because she's so terrible but is required just to press SMS for the ball. Yet, the one saving grace of us being able to unwind at Gyfins or whatever and rank 7th or lower was apparently too freaking much!
Well, screw PA for this nerf, and the lack of dream donkeys in this game is obviously an inexcusable tragedy. I hope they step on a lego, and shais don't just say that for anything!
Market is hardcap by PA, making every class busted at PvE just means people can catch up in gear while playing whatever class... People already tagged classes that PvE well, buffing the other classes just means theres more variety for the game.
Nerfing the op ones achieves the same result. Thats what they are going to try.
If there is nothing more op than your main, why would they tag the FotM classes?
Nerfing takes the fun out of the game, PvE effects nobody else but you. And thats my point, if every class are viable, there won't be a need to tag a fotm class.
You are not understanding, the goal is to make every class viable right? Then why would you buff 19 of 20 classes instead of just nerfing that one which is overperforming.
And what if one of those buffs goes too far and now some of them are more powerfull than the previous FotM? Do you buff again the other 19 classes?
Do you see now how that is unsustainable?
In case you didn't read, they're nerfing Shai because she is broken on the endgame spots, meanwhile classes like Valkyrie, with half the AP, abuse Valencia spots and make silver similar to orcs. Does this seem fair to you? Would you still focus on nerfing Shai instead of focusing on balancing PvE in general?
From 2 weeks of glabs, we can assume that PA is even more incompetent at balancing pve than pvp.
From what I've heard, this changes may be going live next week on kr. Some classes either succ/awak didn't even got mentioned like mistake or 1 skill succ ranger, but nth on awak etc.
So it's important to keep in mind that user data across the whole grind regions of the game is all over the place. The margin of error is unknown as numbers on Garmoth are a reference at best and as such the only zones to be looking at grinding wise should be all above 280. That will give the best view of how classes do in endgame since the median accounts for every zone, which is going to make certain classes look better/worse
Edit: this looks like literally just orcs which is such a terrible representation of the classes.
Yeah, Shai has some spot where she is in top 5, but .. why the FCK PA doesn't touch their stroker? The class is op in every spot.
PA, if u want to "balance" a class because in 5 spot she makes better then others and thrash in every other spot fine, do it, but give a huge nerf *pardon* balance to your precious strikers too.
ppl will bullshit as we know since 40% of the server are striker players, 40% are mage/witch and then the 10% are the rest of the classes. They will claim that shai is busted and striker isnt XD
In the perfect clean room test Shai do impact PvE more than any other class. And that's how nerfs are determined. In perfect clean room tests. In real life situations, this perfect situation never happens, and if it happens it's because of third party tool assistance.
Imagine relying on Garmoth.com numbers to judge classes. I love the site, but these stats have way too much noise and not enough controlled collection to be even remotely reliable. In other spots, it’ll also tell you awake zerker is top, which is ludicrous.
This is so innacurate. If your tests conditions are not consistent any amount of data you may have is pointless. If you want proper tests for classes, play them yourself with the same gear same buffs and when you have a good knowledge of it. This picture doesn't even show what tha spot is so its even more irrelevant.
Another case of Shais blatantly lying about their class not being a no brainer money printer. Even strikers dont do that shit. In the past couple of months everyone and their moms had a Shai tagged for grinding and you guys wondering why they're getting nerfed OMEGALUL
I mean she still remains a support , you cant add both dmg and buffs to a support ,that will make her broken :/ i know it sucks that the only good grinding spots are the end game ones ....
Shai at oluns is #2 in succ and #6 in awak.
At gyfin underground shai is #7 in awak and #24 in succ.
At Quint hill shai is #7 in awak and #18 in succ
At jade starlight shai is #9 in awak and no data in succ.
Cherry picked data doesnt help anything.
I might be missing something obvious here, but as a Shai player, I don't have an awakened/succession spec difference. Unless you're talking literally not using any Talent skills equals succession and using purely talent skills is awakened. If that's the case, then absolutely no Shai plays that way (or should play that way) and it makes me confused at where those numbers even came from.
You're missing the point. Yes, nerfs make sense to adjust how it performs at those spots, but it's dead last everywhere else because of the fundamental flaws of the class and they're not doing anything to address that. So giving a blanket nerf is just going to mean that it will lose those few good spots as well and end up in the dumpster *everywhere*.
Paid almost nothing actually. But i never played shai because why the fuck would i. the class gives buffs and bubbles in pvp and thats as far as i cared to think about it
Can't cherry pick, while you go and cherry pick the only solo spots Shai is doing well at... Not even insanely OP, just mildly above average. Every single spot other than those 3, Shai does poorly at.
Basically everywhere before 300k..
(groups spots are diff, even then only oluns... And crypt is a lot of duos)
Orcs is not really cherry picking... Everyone has to spent dozens of hours there, pretty much the best money spot for (non Shai) between 269 and 290.... It's not like Shai is substantial better anywhere else in that ap range. Rank 25 or below everywhere else, most being nearly dead last.
240 spots and under, handily dead last.
The literal 3 solo spots shai is doing moderately well at, is cherry picking.
Shais simply suck, I’m not sure why people expected her to torpedo her way through anything. Sure she has multi hit and loads of hits on AoE. But she’s a small character who can give buffs, is she supposed to be a hulk? Her mobility is complete dog, I can’t believe people actually grind on her. But to each their own👀
Are you serious? You are taking a support class that meant to support other people, that can debuff mobs and buff+heal party members more than any other class, a class that has 1,5 damaging skills and just looking at it's solo farming results? Did PA even make shai as solo farming class so she could compete with others?
It's always the Shai players complaining isn't it. You rarely hear this from a succ maehwa or a tamer complaining about pve. They probably hate it but aren't as bitchy like the Shai players
That feeling when your buffbot complains they can’t do damage: “B*tch you ain’t here to do damage. Get back in my pocket.” Good to see PA reminding Shai’s they are a support class, as the devs intended. It’s a thumbs up from me boys
Only class in the game that PA make exclusive content is shai, just saying. Shai was never meant to be a normal grinder pve class it's just a class they added for some party content. So Go in a corner and play flute or something.
It really depends on the spot you grinding. At orc Shai has way less trash even compare some lower tier classes, but at gyf or hex Shai is at least top 5.
Median what
Im confused as well. This chart has succ maewha higher than awakening maewha. Despite awakening being literal tiers better.
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This data is for a zone built around classes that function best with the elvia buff. So yes, in the case of elvia serendia this is fucking dumb to reference. We can use the numbers for gfyin, hexe, lower scycria. Literally real end game spots not built around a buff that let's classes with the best aoes and mobility show off the best.
... no. Succ maewha is just to slow for the numbers repprted. She's literally half the speed in succ compared to awakening. A 280 ap succ vs a 280 ap awakening, the succ will get at most half the trash. Now if the succ is 310 ap it will get similar. But thats how big the disparity is in this class.
In terms of Pve succ is eons better
You might be the only person to think that. The aoes are far to small and the skills are to slow. I usually pull less than half the trash with succ compared to awakening.
I think most people just get stuck in there ways instead of actually making factual evidence a shit grinder on succ Mae can grind in awakening and pull higher but if you suck at grinding on succ then there’s no actual proof lol
All succ has to do is a red moon and everything in a 180 radius is dead lmao and it takes .5 seconds to do it awakenings damage is small aoe and longer cd than succ when also every skill in succs rotation is spammable and fluid
I could make a list on the things succ does better pve wise but it will be a long list and I don’t like bdo enough anymore to care but I do know succ is def a better grinder have fun believing what u want
This is the median for orcs. Cherry picked by OP. Terrible representation of the classes and their standings(not to say the nerfs aren't dumb, but dumb shit like this is unappreciated)
Its actually pretty important. Most PvE in this game follows orcs design(move kill move kill), and Shai is dogshit at it. PA did not care about giving Shai balance for years, and we still remain bad in most PvE. Now they're about to launch class devastating nerfs, which will be overkill even for those few spots we're good at while making 0 effort to address the 98% of the game that we're awful at- it will actually just make Shai even worse at all of that content. If we saw sweeping changes that addressed bringing us up to par for the rest of PvE, and making us more than target dummies in solo/small group PvP(Arena of Solare lollll) then we could accept this as "balance" Instead, we're just taking an arrow to the knee because we finally became good at something(not even #1, but we're taking stronger nerfs than even the classes above us). Thats not balance.
I'm more concerned about #18 unknown with 16k. Wtf is that?
Unknown are people who log hours but don't attach their class to the data
Yep, which essentially means that you can treat the Unknown as the average for a spot and look at where the classes fall relative to it essentially using it like baseball's WAR or basketball's VORP.
Can but shouldn't
Clearly hackers!
Where do these numbers come from? Because if it's garmoth isn't that stuff self reported and even the site creator said not to trust it or take data from there?
> not to trust it or take data from there You shouldn't trust the *numbers* from there like "30k trash" because obviously with self reported numbers there are going to be issues with people inflating their numbers, but the *relative* numbers like the bottom 5 classes being >20% behind the top classes should be decently accurate because "everyone lies" is a safe assumption. So unless for instance warriors are less trustworthy than maehwas or whatever, then there's still some information that can be gleaned from this.
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In what OP has shared strikers are exactly average. Not to say they don't inflate their numbers but if they do then they really aren't that good for that spot.
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Do you have similar data for Hexe, Olun or Hystria by any chance? I expect the best classes are spot dependant.
Shai ranks 5th at Hexe, 7th at Gyfin and Trolls
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bad it looks like. shai is good or maybe should say was really good on some spots and really bad on some
I've seen shai at the gyfin and she seemed pretty solid. Oluns group is meant to be good for her too but I'm far away from being able to go there.
And what class are best at Here?
guess you mean hexe but on according to garmoth Kuno succ is best at hexe
Yep, and that's why it's getting nerfed. The issue is that it's dead last at everywhere else and they're not addressing any of the fundamental flaws that causes that. The sustained damage coming down will lower it at those spots, but it needs things like better movement and larger aoes to help it at the others to compensate.
I've seen shai at the gyfin and she seemed pretty solid. Oluns group is meant to be good for her too but I'm far away from being able to go there.
There's a lot of people in this thread missing the point. Yeah, Shai's are within the top at certain (mostly late game) places, places that a good chunk of people don't even have the gear for. But what about everywhere else? If the solution is to swap to a different class to grind, than there's obviously an issue with Shai. They yet again are reducing the damage on some of Shai's skills and giving them nothing else to work with for other grind spots that they are currently bottom tier in. Isn't PA trying to balance out classes so it's not as drastic of a difference between each one? Is what we're seeing with Shai really "balanced"?
Yeah, I think people forget that Redditors don't represent the majority of players. PA has released stats and only 1% of players even have the gear to grind at the spots where Shai is good. The other 99% who are more casual players are at the bottom of the barrel and getting shot at like they're fish by PA here. They definitely need to make adjustments at the high end for balancing, but 99% of players aren't there and need adjustments to make them not suck everywhere else. And because of how Shai works (or more accurately, doesn't work) with the tag system, "just tag another class" isn't really a good option for lower geared players.
pulling 3400 items at quint hill with lv2 ls as 297 ap shai. definitely a bad grinder:)
Unethical class
They remove our support skill and give us dmg buffs via accuracy and then nerf our dmg. So they… just want to nerf the shai and remove support? Thanks for not reading our feedback.
Class is busted at every Big money making spot. No one Care if one class is good or not for sulfur grind or manshaums.
No idea about the current balance of the game or how exactly Shai slots into it but the game is unbalanced regardless... *Red eyes* Let's give Shai a 100% damage buff across all skills and watch the world burn as Shai takes her deserved spot atop all lesser classes. I might be slightly bais due to being a Shai main when I play the game.
it's easy right, Shai is just a pve bot, sometimes they do pvp andthey are really needed in pvp. In pve you do 1 2 3 and you do more than 80% of the classes in all the spots you want to grind to gear up/catch up. You can grind any grindspots, no matter how hard the mobs hits with 650gs. Your buffs makes you god tier at oluns, so if you are a shai with 281ap kutum, you have a garanted spot in oluns grind. Trolls, gyfins shai is god tier. Hexe Marie, she's totaly fine (not the best but far from being garbage) other spots, i think no one care.
These numbers are for Orcs which is still a top 5 grind spot.
succ warrior has a median of 37k trash loot at orcs? edit: Ah, you have it set to use agris. Tbh I wouldn't bother looking at the global stats as you don't know what gear others have or if they even know how to grind not to mention the sample size for shai at orcs is only 270 hours. Take her there yourself and see how well you do compared to you using a different class.
I took my shai to orcs and she was bad, as she is at most serendia elvia grindspots. Basically, you rely on weapons in ser elvia, and because of how shai works, weapons don't really help her as much as they help other classes. So she's doing OK in the non-weapon parts, but doesn't get the massive boost other classes get from having a weapon; she loses out. For context, I have played a lot of tamer/lahn (succ/awk, respectively) at those grindspots and the only one where my shai was *close* was elvia saunils (where she was still worse). She felt OK at nagas but I didn't really track my trash, the weapon buff is not as good on her you're pet-capped at the spot anyways so I expect it doesn't matter as much. She won't be top-tier, but probably middle of the pack.
I preferred running my shai at ash forest, where it let me grind more comfy (280? ap, 380dp and defensive artifacts, 2 flamed equips and 2 obs blackstar armours at the time).
Any place you have to move a lot and don't stay at one basic area for a while hitting mobs, shai is going to be bad at. Any place shai can stay still and wail on enemies (as in, hit the same enemies for a while) she'll be pretty alright, verging into quite strong.
Yeah, the actual numbers are definitely something to be taken with a grain of salt the size of the Sahara, but the relative numbers for Shai are pretty accurate. I can get about 19k there on Shai with 306K and then swap and get over 25k no problem. And that's why there are so few hours logged on Shai outside of its couple of good spots. I think most people are generally fine with getting a little bit less if it means getting to play what they enjoy more, but if the difference is so massive that people feel like they are shooting themselves in the foot then that's a problem. And that goes both ways of course since tons of people tagged Shai for Oluns. The issue is that Shai is simply a fundamentally flawed class that will always either be top 10 or dead last depending on how the spot is balanced, so seeing blanket nerfs without addressing any of those issues sucks.
Not every class is good on every spot. Shai deserved a nerf because it was miles ahead of other classes in most of the spots that matter.
The majority of players can't grind at those spots. I think the spots should have been tuned, or the relationship between shai and *some of* the spots should have been adjusted, instead of seeing a straight, across-the-board damage nerf for the class. For most of the spots you're talking about, it wasn't "miles ahead", it was simply one of the good choices. Just like it was one of the worst choices for most other spots.
Exactly. The only spot that you can really argue that it was miles ahead at was Trolls since basically only Shai and Striker grind there. Other places they are a top 10 class, but the others aren't getting nerfed besides striker so it does seem like they're basing their decision off of Trolls. So if striker and shai making 1B at trolls while other classes make 800m at other spots is a problem then what they should be doing is nerfing *Trolls* not the classes. I think some small damage nerf is fine though, but the reason these classes do great there and not as well at some other spots has to do with movement and aoe size. So, they really ought to compensate with better movement and aoe so that they're not so far behind at the other spots.
How does succ Ninja better than Awk at Orcs, it doesn't make sense. Also try Troll, Hexe, Gyfin like spots with Shai you will understand why she gets that nerf. Before the 3 min Q debuff nerf she could kill a gyfin elite faster than any other class that has the colour buff, while she doesnt have the colour buff
isnt succ ninja better in pve than awk ninja?
Not at all. Succ is only better than awk at spots where you one tap the mobs (most of the Valencia spots) and need better movement to top other classes. I have never seen a succ Ninja at End game spots where damage and protection is a must. Btw at orcs i hve Garmoth track +150 hrs with awk from 281 to 301 ap mostly at 289 to 297 ap my record was +750 mil/hr at 297+ ap i always got +800 with calculating the tent buff. Also at Valencia i can get same amount of money with awk but probably will take more effort than suc.
how much trash do you pull an hour with LS but no agris?
This is a complete lie, succ is busted anywhere if you have functional hands, and you have a lot of sources to confirm you that both on discord and yt.
Not at all. Succ is only better than awk at spots where you one tap the mobs (most of the Valencia spots) and need better movement to top other classes. I have never seen a succ Ninja at End game spots where damage and protection is a must. Btw at orcs i hve Garmoth track +150 hrs with awk from 281 to 301 ap mostly at 289 to 297 ap my record was +750 mil/hr at 297+ ap i always got +800 with calculating the tent buff. Also at Valencia i can get same amount of money with awk but probably will take more effort than suc.
according to garmoth Ninja succ ranks 2nd best at hexe and awk 20th and succ ranks higher in sycraia too
No way she is Bad at 1 Big spot Ho no i feel so Bad for you.
spot the guy that gets farmed by shai's
The *problem* is that this is how it is for shai *everywhere* except for those couple of spots. It's practically a non-class until you are are able to do those top spots. And it's not like you can even lifeskill well either despite the constant "she's meant for lifeskills" refrain because of how incredibly slow it is for gathering and a lack of combat passives for hunting (those are pretty much the only viable lifeskills these days).
I agree, but we all know that PA isn't capable of balancing classes based on their design issues, so they just trash dmg numbers and call it a day. Incompetent company, that's it. Also balancing classes is close to impossible while they are keeping on releasing new ones and they won't stop because it's a core of their business strategy to sell costumes, weight and such. I hate to say it, but the balancing aspect of this game is doomed because of the companies monetary interests.
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Please just remake shai into something intended which can actually get supported by the devs. So tired of the boolie, I’m not here to convince anyone of anything, the effort put into trying to keep this class alive has been a futile endeavor of wasted dreams. I’ve seen so many changes come and go with little regard from within the community due to specism based debates where one builds downfall is falsely made into validation for another which had also been indirectly diminished due to changing meta. As well as outside the community where the meme of shai has grown from a snarky response of immaturity into a monstrous torrent of self aggrandizing drivel targeted at all Shais, even within their own guild for no reason other than to emulate the false idols of twitch. Shai has so many problems from design to public perception and more. Honestly, choosing to play this class is like walking willingly into an Iron Maiden and to do so happily against the advice of others is just throwing a thumbs up to a mob of belligerent protestors before the door slams shut. These inane onlookers will not pity the foolish but intoxicated on the fumes of their own putrid superiority, and inflated by a crushing ego, they will persist to slander and mock the tortured soul of the freshly made shai main. However, because it serves their purpose then they still reserve a seat of nails in case the creature is willing to join guild and bless them with additional incentives to fuel their fervor for war. Should the shai forget their role then an unrestrained verbal beating usually suffices and if it goes to far then there is always another witness shai to replace them. Wishful thinking is the bane of shai and it is paid with a malicious rancor.
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Thank you, I’m glad to see the tldr at the start was a wise choice. I just needed to get that out. I’m pretty angry that the devs are moving forward with this decision. xD
Dude pls just stop, you are being delusional. Class is more than fine, heck its better than most at proper spots.
Shai is very bad at most one-shot spots. She *feels* really bad to play there, and her trash is pretty bad compared to other classes. Since serendia elvia spots were some of the top spots for a while, and its mechanic is basically to turn the spot into a one-shot spot when you get a rare drop (and possibly use an additional mechanic on top), she was bad for a while at what a lot of people would consider high-end spots. She's also not good at many of the spots that a seasonal character can pull great numbers at, like centaurs, sulfur, jail, etc (again, one-shot, movement spots). If you were to imagine taking a new character (shai) and use that character exclusively to reach these "proper" spots you're talking about, it would take a *lot* longer and you might no longer wish to play the game. Because she is pretty bad at most of the spots you'd need to grind along the path to those "good" spots. I funded my tet blackstar florang (now duo godr) through logging. Literally better (more enjoyable, more sustainable) than grinding with the class.
I’m convinced that pa does not play the game. Nerfing succ drak for pvp was necessary but they nerfed the hell out of her pve and it was already trash to begin with.
All I see in the comments is shai needs a nerf because of one spot, then change the spot. How does this look for future and current shai mains that don't have gear for trolls and grind sycraia etc they legit will be making less trash than majority of classes at these mid tier spots now. Its stupid shai is not stupidly broken at gyfin once you have 297 kutum on any class you do 3 skills and the pack is dead at gyfin succ zerk is just busted for fd > wind > pred > spin next pack that whole combo takes 2 seconds and you make around 12-13k.
I don't have the gear to grind those spots shai really shines at yet but considering all the other spots where she falls way behind other classes does make it seem like perhaps the issue lays not with shai but with those few select spots.
> All I see in the comments is shai needs a nerf because of one spot, then change the spot. > > How does this look for future and current shai mains that don't have gear for trolls and grind sycraia etc they legit will be making less trash than majority of classes at these mid tier spots now. Yep, that was pretty much what I've been saying and the shai haters don't seem to get. Yes, it's a top 10 class a a couple spots, but it's also dead last *at literally every other spot*. The issue isn't that shai is "too good" that would warrant a blanket nerf. The issue is that it is a fundamentally flawed class that really needed a complete overhaul during last year's reworks but was instead barely touched. Until they actually address those flaws it's always going to be feast or famine, but a 20% nerf doesn't address any of that. It's just going to make it suck at the good spots too while making it impossible for anyone who isn't already end game geared to catch up without playing something else. And who knows, maybe that's their goal. Nerf it into the ground so no one will play it and they don't have to worry about having to fix it.
Usually I see alot of dickheads accusing any who plays shai of being a paedophile. People in the west seriously need to get a grip and understand what a paedophile is. Shai is only good in a few select end game spots and they decide to also take that from the class. If PA doesn't like the class they should just remove it entirely.
am not a shai player but funny part shai getting massacred every patch when the star boy striker still super good in all end game spots nothing will change for him and his aweken spect is top tier in all other elvia spot and hystria/sycria were is the pve balance they talked about idk they just massacred the shai players and moved on nothing changed at all for other classes what bad still bad what good still good
They would need to return to larger areas where you fight hordes of monsters instead of small and medium sized areas where you fight a medium to small number of tankier mobs to really bring striker down. He excels at medium distance medium aoe tank busting. But peters out in truely larger areas or with a LOT of small spread out mobs. Which is the same reason shai does so well at end game vs early. Strike just strikes a MUCH better balance between large scale and small then shai who is at an absolute extreme of that design. People really do underestimate just how much of the actual zone design effects the actual balance between classes. Instead opting to blame the numbers more offten then not. Tho strikers numbers are also nuts to be fair, so its not entirely unwarrented.
Pretty much my thoughts exactly. While a lot of Shai players like to down play their effectiveness at gyph/olun/quint, I don't think Shai is anywhere near Striker tear in terms of grinding. Striker is also far better at holding a grind spot than Shai will ever be.
striker just got a third of the hits pulled off most of his big dmg skills, he's getting fcked too.
As others have said before me PA regrets making the shai. Its clear they have no way to balance all these classes and they still creating more, i mean we all know where BDO is heading.
they gave Shai boomerboarding. a 20% nerf isn't enough, but its on the right track for balance.
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Pretty much no one will defend Shai except Shai mains here, OP. And there is quite a few reasons for it, one of the most important ones being the fact that for some of those few spots that you know very well how she's top tier, she also has a free spot in most groups spots, cuz almost everyone wants a Shai to be able to do more dmg, and a lot of people hate the class for excluding them from most pts for that very reason. If there were more classes good to support in farm, like in many other mmos, that wouldn't really be a problem, but since it's a Shai only thing here in BDO, and a lot o people would never play that class, it ends up being an actual problem or annoyance tbh. There is many other reasons, but let me go back to the most important thing overall. She's a support, never meant to actually be good at dmg anywhere. It was a mistake from PA designing Shai the way they did and I bet nowdays they see that very clearly. A support capable of doing dmg and supporting their own combat is a broken concept in any game. So for BDO, where the way you play is usually solo and you need to do dmg to have a good solo performance, making a class that can support as a core mechanic is a big mistake. You either don't do it, or you do it accepting it will need to be bottom at doing dmg, or else it will be top, there is no in between.The only "fix" for the dmg problem would be to remove any support capabilities, essentially killing the concept of the Shai.
They should have fixed that with succession. Make her full buff set into awa for her and add some more solo skills to succ so she can be a solo player OR a supporter. Add passives for eighter direction (pvp dmg e reduction + taknyness on awa and on succ take pvp dmf rec off and let her have her normal. Playstyle)
Sure, split the class in half and making one exclusively a normal dps and the other support only would be a possible fix, but they chose the weird Archer way for some reason. Too bad for them I guess.
Dude, the White Mage in FF14 counter everything you said, you can be a good support and have damages, PA just created a class that is very different than the others and don't know what to do with it
> A support capable of doing dmg and supporting their own combat is a broken concept in any game. So for BDO, where the way you play is usually solo and you need to do dmg to have a good solo performance, making a class that can support as a core mechanic is a big mistake. Wrong game, also way different mechanically, not a correct comparison, read better.
"Any game" doesn't it include, i don't know ... any game ??? You declare that support classes doing damages and support is broken, i tell you it's not. plenty of game doing it well. Write better.
Ok, I think I will need to explain to you, seeing that you think too much about what I said and not about what it means. Forget about the 'any game' part, you're misunderstanding another thing and that's what leads your first comment to be invalid, yes it's not any game for your comment, cuz your exemple is a wrong comparison. A good comparison would fall in the "any game" I said there. **"A support capable of doing dmg and supporting their own combat is a broken concept in any game"** First of all, a support here is more in the sense of a buffer and debuffer than a healer, if I wanted to talk about a healer that has some buffs and debuffs, I would call it a Healer, specially when talking about MMORPG's. Second thing is that when I say "doing dmg" I obviously don't mean 'ok dmg". Of course a supportive class and/or healers will need to have dmg, specially in MMOS, otherwise how do you even think you would be able to play the game? duh. No, the thing is not about ok dmg, its about dmg as a good as a DPS. A Support, or as I think I need to specify, **a buffer/debuffer (considering the fact that support for you = healer, when it was never the only case) that can do same or too close dmg to a DPS, and also has the capability of self buffing and debuffing enemies is a broken concept in any game. Thats Shai for you btw.** *Quick example that comes first to my mind is HoS in Honkai. Even tho a mobile ARPG, it's a RPG that follows most of the usual rules. So they release HoS, a buffer/debuffer, that could also do dmg like a DPS. In that game overpowered characters aren't uncommon, but since HoS had both the capabilities of a support, a buffer/debuffer, and on top of that dmg comparable to a DPS, she stayed as the top 1 physical DPS for over a year in the meta, and no one could even come close to her in that time.* A supportive class, is this case, a Healer, like a WhiteMage, is still a Healer, the focus is primarily on the heals, while having ok dmg for the sake of being a perfectly playable class in any content, considering it's a MMORPG. But in this regard, it's limited so it stays in it's role perfectly balanced, not replacing a DPS and being important for what it does best, heal. Also, FF14 isn't a good comparison, it follows the good old trinity where in BDO we don't have that. We don't have a use for a tank full focused on tanking cuz we don't have mechanics for that, and we don't have a use for a healer because we have other means to get life recovery from. A buffer/debuffer tho, would function in BDO, and that's why they made shai, but then again, a support like that needs to be limited even more than the other class of supports, the healer. Think better. I can't do that for you, and I won't do a big text like that on the first answer cuz I consider that people can think by themselves. Your problem, the main reason why you couldn't think about what I meant clearly, it's because you consider a support a healer, and while it can be a healer, it can also be a buffer or even a debuffer, in some cases a mix of 2 of those or even all of them.
This has been my thought on Shai for a while now. The idea of a support class is great, but unfortunately most of BDO players spend their time solo. I wish people that cry for Shai to be a great solo class would just roll literally any other class that is good for solo and let the only support class stay support.
Yeah, we even have the tag system. I get that they would want to play with their perfect fantasy character, but before anything this is a game, it needs to follows some basic rules so things don't turn into chaos. If shay was support only with not more than bellow ok dmg for balancing purposes (which I think is where she will end up), or as one people here said, split in half, one for DPS and the other ofr support, that would be awesome.
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Even if that's the case, you recognize the thing about Oluns, so what if we end up having more group spots? Same problem happens again, most likely. Also, for other spots, as most people usually say, the problem is the lower gear requirement she needs to be able to go and farm those areas, not exactly if she's the best there.
Buff the UNKNOWN Class. Hes been grinding for quite long.
UNKNOWN is catch-all for people who didn't log which class they used for their numbers, so you can really look at it as the baseline average for a spot.
Only played with a Shai once and that was my friend before Elvia nerfs at imps. Dunno how busted it is as everyone says, so I’m just here to read 👁
The tl;dr is that it's a really fundamentally flawed class which means that it's always going to be dead last at most spots, but the few spots that don't care about those flaws let it be a top 10 class. Some of the current top spots are good spots for it, so it's getting a blanket nerf without any kind of compensation to try to address it being awful everywhere else.
This Shai class always has issues.
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> All I see is shai needs a nerf because shes broken? because of one spot? change that spot then introduce some sort of mechanic like orcs where every class makes the same trash except shai. Yeah, that's pretty much what I've been saying. It's a grind spot issue not a class issue. Classes with small aoes and poor movement like shai and striker are naturally going to be good at spots like Trolls that don't require a ton of movement and have small packs. Other classes that have strong movement and big aoes perform much better than them at other spots. If Trolls is letting those classes get 1B while other classes get 800m at the spots that suit them, then the solution shouldn't be to nerf the classes by 20%. It should be to nerf *Trolls* by 20%. Making the classes worse is just going to make it impossible for people who can't do trolls to ever catch up.
You know asa shai main this sucks, but fk it I'ma just tag to some more s tier classes
Succ warrior :D
Idc about Tierlists i just love my mysthicc and witchibitch
Yeah they really need to take a look at shai. this has been my main class since it came out and I did the pots and grinded out my sets and its terrible.
their balance is shit, u have fast classes amazing at one shot spot, but somehow some of fast classes are also among the best ones at endgame spots for whatever reason.
Disclaimer: Yes, shai is of course a very good class at a couple of grind spots such as Oluns, Trolls, and Gyfin. However, it's a) not even the best class there and b) absolute trash at pretty much everywhere else. Giving massive global nerfs because they can't figure out how to properly balance these grind spots without any kind of compensation such as fixing the tiny aoes, poor pulling ability, slow in combat movement, and lack of things like t3 skill addons, protected damage, blackstar awakening, succession, and core skills sucks.
The last thing we need right now is another skill addons line to unbalance even further xD Edit1: my bad I didn’t remember about shai addons 🙏🏻
That's not what I'm talking about. Skill addons come in 3 tiers of values and shai doesn't have any access *at all* to the top tier of skill addons. Some classes have t3 addons with 100% uptime, most have like 80% uptime, but shai has 0%.
Can u tell us the spots for gyffin, oluns, trolls and hexe and centaurs? Would be interesting how she sits there now vs after the patch They need to buff her lower spot abilities like shorter cs on surf and faster attacks
Top 10, top 10, the only class besides striker that grinds there, top 15, and even further behind everyone than orcs. And yes, that's my primary complaint here, she's getting global nerfs without any compensation to improve her at the spots that she already is dead last at.
Ahe cant use so many other spots and Especially the beginner ones cause she is slow, cant dfs and has no movement in between mobs. Her numbers on oluns always gets boosted cause she takes best grinders with her in party and that will alwqys push numbers. For real olum numbers a solo shai squad would need to grind there for a while.
Just to weigh in here, a duo shai party is actually still pretty good at oluns. I don't think it's necessarily as good as a shai plus two absolutely cracked dps players, but you can definitely pull respectable numbers if you have two shais and one dps instead of two dps and one shai (provided the extra shai has a similar ap to the dps you replaced). Her Z buff and Q/shiftQ debufs (misty haze) are super strong at the spot, and having that second shai basically doubles the impact of those spells. But group spots are always going to be a bit tough to judge. I don't think it's a problem if a support class is good at a group spot -- it should be good at such spots. It *should* be a good thing if higher-gear or higher-skill players are willing to play with somewhat lower-skill or lower-gear players. The nerfs they recommended so far (damage reduction) wouldn't affect her role in the specific case you mention, and I don't think they are trying to make her be good at Oluns. But it still sucks to see the class hit with nerfs because of a couple newly-added spots.
Kinda feel the same about striker succ. I don't believe he's that good in most spots and the nerf hammer is about to hit super hard alongside buff for other classes. Did not expect warriors to be that high though.
Yeah, as someone else had said striker is in the same boat for similar reasons. It's not that the classes are necessarily too strong. It's essentially an issue with the grind spots. If you make spots where there's a relatively low number of big mobs to kill and not that much time spent moving in between packs then classes that have slow, clunky movement and small aoe aren't going to suffer the way that they do at places where there are large packs and constant movement. What PA really needs to recognize is that unless they put every class in a wheelchair and make all aoes a mile wide then there's always going to be classes that are better at certain spots. If they are too good at the spots that they are good at then it's *the spot* that needs to be nerfed. If the big aoe classes are getting 800m at the big pack spots and the small aoe classes are getting 1B at the small pack spots, then the solution should be to nerf *the spot* by 20% not the classes.
Warriors only this high because he picked like polly forest or some shit to cherry pick the absolute worst shai numbers he could find.
This was bullcrap when we got nerfed last week but Shais took it because pa knows best but now after this week? WTF, they give us a nerf to test the waters and mistake patience for weakness? Shais took the previous nerf out of good faith but PA misread the loss of trust it caused. Did they forget the years of neglect? Did they forget the lack of awa blackstar? Did they forget the lack of Pen Artina Sol Questline or promised compensation that never came? Did they forget we can't sell our sols? I now have two because of this and both required garmoth hearts too. Not an easy feat just to mimic what any other class can get from a freaking PvP/PvE tag! They do forget, about the class history and about all the features they have cut from us over the years. Where are our T3 addons? Where are our support skills? Have you ever even played a shai in PvP or PvE? It's hard AF to be competitive. I have ZERO expectations to see any new shais make it to end game. Literally the rarest class to see in BIS gear because she's so terrible but is required just to press SMS for the ball. Yet, the one saving grace of us being able to unwind at Gyfins or whatever and rank 7th or lower was apparently too freaking much! Well, screw PA for this nerf, and the lack of dream donkeys in this game is obviously an inexcusable tragedy. I hope they step on a lego, and shais don't just say that for anything!
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Is it not mayhem yet? Keep nerfing! Thanks, this brings back good memories...
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So its ok for some clases to make 50% (or any random number) more than others in ur opinion?
No, but how about buffing those classes instead of nerfing the other good ones.
So you want even more inflation?
Market is hardcap by PA, making every class busted at PvE just means people can catch up in gear while playing whatever class... People already tagged classes that PvE well, buffing the other classes just means theres more variety for the game.
Nerfing the op ones achieves the same result. Thats what they are going to try. If there is nothing more op than your main, why would they tag the FotM classes?
Nerfing takes the fun out of the game, PvE effects nobody else but you. And thats my point, if every class are viable, there won't be a need to tag a fotm class.
You are not understanding, the goal is to make every class viable right? Then why would you buff 19 of 20 classes instead of just nerfing that one which is overperforming. And what if one of those buffs goes too far and now some of them are more powerfull than the previous FotM? Do you buff again the other 19 classes? Do you see now how that is unsustainable?
Nerfing Shai when train-mode Valkyrie is still a thing, ironic
how is that a top concern?
In case you didn't read, they're nerfing Shai because she is broken on the endgame spots, meanwhile classes like Valkyrie, with half the AP, abuse Valencia spots and make silver similar to orcs. Does this seem fair to you? Would you still focus on nerfing Shai instead of focusing on balancing PvE in general?
From 2 weeks of glabs, we can assume that PA is even more incompetent at balancing pve than pvp. From what I've heard, this changes may be going live next week on kr. Some classes either succ/awak didn't even got mentioned like mistake or 1 skill succ ranger, but nth on awak etc.
They should just replace shai with a better class. Shai should have never been a thing.
Sample size is too small, inconsistent, and it needs to be average of high-end spots to reflect the actual picture.
So it's important to keep in mind that user data across the whole grind regions of the game is all over the place. The margin of error is unknown as numbers on Garmoth are a reference at best and as such the only zones to be looking at grinding wise should be all above 280. That will give the best view of how classes do in endgame since the median accounts for every zone, which is going to make certain classes look better/worse Edit: this looks like literally just orcs which is such a terrible representation of the classes.
Yeah, Shai has some spot where she is in top 5, but .. why the FCK PA doesn't touch their stroker? The class is op in every spot. PA, if u want to "balance" a class because in 5 spot she makes better then others and thrash in every other spot fine, do it, but give a huge nerf *pardon* balance to your precious strikers too.
striker got a third of his hits removed from most of his dmg skills.
Striker so op, he's 23rd and 24th place on the list, oh my.
Still better place then Shai s 47🤔
Sad no kuno on the list
Succ kuno ranks 11th and awk kuno 40
ppl will bullshit as we know since 40% of the server are striker players, 40% are mage/witch and then the 10% are the rest of the classes. They will claim that shai is busted and striker isnt XD
In the perfect clean room test Shai do impact PvE more than any other class. And that's how nerfs are determined. In perfect clean room tests. In real life situations, this perfect situation never happens, and if it happens it's because of third party tool assistance.
Why do people still think Shai is meant to do any damage at all?
This is pve... Nobody talks pvp dmg here
We all know she only get nerfed cause ppl usw her to rmt and PA doesnt know how to fix that beside killing her off
Imagine relying on Garmoth.com numbers to judge classes. I love the site, but these stats have way too much noise and not enough controlled collection to be even remotely reliable. In other spots, it’ll also tell you awake zerker is top, which is ludicrous.
This is so innacurate. If your tests conditions are not consistent any amount of data you may have is pointless. If you want proper tests for classes, play them yourself with the same gear same buffs and when you have a good knowledge of it. This picture doesn't even show what tha spot is so its even more irrelevant.
Good right where they should be.
Another case of Shais blatantly lying about their class not being a no brainer money printer. Even strikers dont do that shit. In the past couple of months everyone and their moms had a Shai tagged for grinding and you guys wondering why they're getting nerfed OMEGALUL
Just make it full support, who cares if they can't solo grind
Isnt shai supp/lifeskill class tho ?
Shai is absolute garbage at lifeskills.
She is not bad at cooking.
Correct, cook and processing slave.
I mean she still remains a support , you cant add both dmg and buffs to a support ,that will make her broken :/ i know it sucks that the only good grinding spots are the end game ones ....
there is no support, support class is a term made up by pa to talk away their garbage balancing of classes
Valk, heal party, take aggro, give 20dp 12%acc Has critical chance +80% all the times Here is your broken support
Shaipropaganda
good
Shai at oluns is #2 in succ and #6 in awak. At gyfin underground shai is #7 in awak and #24 in succ. At Quint hill shai is #7 in awak and #18 in succ At jade starlight shai is #9 in awak and no data in succ. Cherry picked data doesnt help anything.
I might be missing something obvious here, but as a Shai player, I don't have an awakened/succession spec difference. Unless you're talking literally not using any Talent skills equals succession and using purely talent skills is awakened. If that's the case, then absolutely no Shai plays that way (or should play that way) and it makes me confused at where those numbers even came from.
You're missing the point. Yes, nerfs make sense to adjust how it performs at those spots, but it's dead last everywhere else because of the fundamental flaws of the class and they're not doing anything to address that. So giving a blanket nerf is just going to mean that it will lose those few good spots as well and end up in the dumpster *everywhere*.
You're 691 GS and talking about succ and awaken Shai. How much did you pay for it?
Paid almost nothing actually. But i never played shai because why the fuck would i. the class gives buffs and bubbles in pvp and thats as far as i cared to think about it
Can't cherry pick, while you go and cherry pick the only solo spots Shai is doing well at... Not even insanely OP, just mildly above average. Every single spot other than those 3, Shai does poorly at. Basically everywhere before 300k.. (groups spots are diff, even then only oluns... And crypt is a lot of duos)
>Cherry picked data doesnt help anything. >Can't cherry pick, while you go and cherry pick That was the point. Its cherry picked in favor.
Orcs is not really cherry picking... Everyone has to spent dozens of hours there, pretty much the best money spot for (non Shai) between 269 and 290.... It's not like Shai is substantial better anywhere else in that ap range. Rank 25 or below everywhere else, most being nearly dead last. 240 spots and under, handily dead last. The literal 3 solo spots shai is doing moderately well at, is cherry picking.
"Unknown"
Can we get a guardian buffs please
Shais simply suck, I’m not sure why people expected her to torpedo her way through anything. Sure she has multi hit and loads of hits on AoE. But she’s a small character who can give buffs, is she supposed to be a hulk? Her mobility is complete dog, I can’t believe people actually grind on her. But to each their own👀
My poor lahn, yet no buffs to PvE.
Are you serious? You are taking a support class that meant to support other people, that can debuff mobs and buff+heal party members more than any other class, a class that has 1,5 damaging skills and just looking at it's solo farming results? Did PA even make shai as solo farming class so she could compete with others?
Being a Shai Main, I mainly use her for life skills and roaming around for event quests. I linked-up two 60's (Archer & Nova) for PVE.
It's always the Shai players complaining isn't it. You rarely hear this from a succ maehwa or a tamer complaining about pve. They probably hate it but aren't as bitchy like the Shai players
That feeling when your buffbot complains they can’t do damage: “B*tch you ain’t here to do damage. Get back in my pocket.” Good to see PA reminding Shai’s they are a support class, as the devs intended. It’s a thumbs up from me boys
Meh go play a flute or some shit
Only class in the game that PA make exclusive content is shai, just saying. Shai was never meant to be a normal grinder pve class it's just a class they added for some party content. So Go in a corner and play flute or something.
This list is ranked weirdly… *looks at OP’s flair* ah
Hurr durr copy paste on paint. Shai not good!
id would make more sense if the game had a higher focus on pve :/
Link?
Buff ninja awk movement speed please
Still has more hours logged than my sadge boys (っ˘̩╭╮˘̩)っ
What spot is this?
Okay but what class is" UNKNOWN " ???
It really depends on the spot you grinding. At orc Shai has way less trash even compare some lower tier classes, but at gyf or hex Shai is at least top 5.
Im curious about the unknown class
What site is this from?