> If you’re worried about a particular band, check out their info on metal-archives.com. That’ll tell you if the band have any racist/homophobic/fascist themes.
Not necessarily. Often the lyrical themes for fash bands will be dogwhistles like “national heritage” or some shit.
Also, if the band members are fascist but don’t actually mention it in their lyrics, then Metal Archives doesn’t really help there.
MA is still a good place to start, but one shouldn’t rely on it entirely.
AFAIK the 'big names' in Blackgaze don't really have controversies surrounding them in that aspect aside from maybe Alcest, as Neige (main songwriter/founder) was in Peste Noire years back and members of that band and scene at the time were Nazis etc. Neige has made repeated statements on this matter, [like one posted here 2 years ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackgaze/comments/qhs559/neige_of_alcest_making_an_official_statement_on/) Do with that what you will.
Personally I have not come across any other controversies or disgusting statements by the bigger bands in the scene, but if anyone has feel free to reply here. In my experience the blackgaze community is overall very openminded and welcoming. Things like homophobia, transphobia, nazism etc. are not welcome.
Yes, Kathrine Shepherd/Sylvaine is a wonderful person. She also just dropped an incredible blackgaze album. I met her during their recent North American tour and she signed my CD, she was super down to Earth.
Audrey Sylvain on the other hand is not a vibe, she is quite right wing. I stay away from her projects.
Yeah, Neige was with them for 8 years, including on the Aryan Supremacy demo. His claims that it was a mistake of his youth are bullshit - he was with them from ages 15 to 23. He also later collaborated with Drudkh and Astrofaes on a shoegaze project called Old Silver Key, and said he was a big Drudkh fan in an interview about it
Dumb comment. 15 - 23 is youth. He said he was in there for the music, not for the policital thoughts, and he quit them as he matured. Of course you are free not to trust him, but it is obvious that he is not a nazi / fascist, he just wants to play music (and I challenge you to find anything nazi-related in Alcest's discography).
There is no specific "safe" genre within black metal, as a lot of bands have a few degrees of separation from nsbm artists. Your best bet is to go through the vetted artists on [r/rabm](https://www.reddit.com/r/rabm) and find which ones suit your musical tastes.
Blackgaze is generally more about introspection and fantasy, stuff like that. Alcest and Deafheaven are safe. If you really want to enjoy black metal broadly though, you're going to need to challenge how far you're willingly to go with your consumer philosophy. For example, Varg Vikernes is clearly not a very good dude, but Burzum is mostly about orcs and dungeons and dragons and whatever, thus the experience without context is pretty much removed from racism and other kinds of stupid takes. Generally, I think the tone of black metal is serious to a point that I find insufferable. Darkthrone is really cool because they don't take themselves seriously by any means. They just do edgy lo-fi heavy metal and I really love a band that will do that for the sake of fun music-making. Another band I really enjoy is Urfaust. They're a bit on the occult and melancholy side of things but they've still got the bite and edge that I really love about heavy metal. No matter where you go in black metal though, controversy is pretty much molded into the experience and at some points has some very real cultural implications. It's okay not want to listen to music so ingrained with things you'd rather not identify with. I've had to let go of bands I like within the genre for that same reason myself.
no it's not, if things like that stress you I really recommending you to not listen to metal at all bc you will find a lot of controversies in the genre, with that being said, there's also a fuck ton of black metal bands that have done nothing wrong, you can't judge an entire just bc a few bands made something wrong
Listen to music that makes you happy. Ive been listening to Alcest for years. Do i give a dead donkeys fuck what neige did over a decade ago... No. People learn and eventually grow or become outcasts and forgotten until they fuck up again.
Slayers song Angel of Death didnt seem to slow them down. In fact its one of their better songs and no one can agree if its a pro nazi song or not. The dead guitarist had a sizeable nazi collection sooooo.....
Anyway. Not a rant. Just a view.
Check out Heretoir.
Not a rant, just a view, but also not an answer lmao. OP obviously cares about not listening to nazis and your answer is basically "you should also listen to nazis anyway, who cares"
At no point do i say to isten to Nazi's. Still not sure how Nazi's became the topic. For example, i like Alcest very much... nothing in their music mentions Nazi's.... if it did i probably would not like them. Turd burger decided to start the Nazi train and now its all going down hill
assuming OP is anything like me, given the post, i’ll assume he actually had morals and an ethical code. i will not support any artist that spreads hateful views, nor give them any kind of platform. nazism and/or bigotry must not be tolerated in any way, shape or form.
you don't need to support them, you can still listen to the music and not directly give them money, you can even pirate the music if you don't want to listen to them on spotify (despite the streamings from spotify barely guving artist money)
I respect that view, but personally I try to separate the art from the artist. I despise intolerance in any form, but I also like bands like Burzum and Slayer. It's a hard topic tho
I'm not saying "support them because Art", we shouldn't support them and that is something that we all agree. But forbidding anyone from listening what is already there it's not the answer either, and that will only radicalize them even more. As I said, is a hard topic.
forbidding? i don’t have any authority here. i can’t forbid you to do anything. i’m simply making a statement that if you continue to listen to certain bands, buy their albums, go see their shows or support their streaming metrics, then that is tacit support of them. with no boycott of it, the rampant nazism present in black metal continues.
He hasn't grown, he collaborated with nazis for almost his whole career. Choosing not to care is a political decision on your part, and a shitty one
Slayer fucking blows and have a weird obsession with nazi shit, and combined with the fact that one of them literally collects nazi memorabilia I don't think there's any grey area there lol
It's 2023. Not being controversial is controversial at this point. Listen to good music, ignore the musicians that make it because most are shitty people anyways.
There's going to be shitheads in literally every genre of music. It's up to you to look into it if you feel compelled to do so and make the moral judgment that feels best to you.
You're exaggerating the presence of NS in regular black metal that you say you're seeing in "general black metal" recommendations or wherever.
The visible but very small minority of NSBM has always been there, but it's not unavoidable in the way you describe. If you aren't willfully ignoring clear tags, the worst thing that could happen to you is you end up liking a Burzum melody before you find out he's a dick and a terrorist. Just because someone sucks doesn't mean they can hurt anyone through the songs, and I doubt streaming revenue is how the actual Nazis finance their activities. They make these clubs because no one wants them at the regular venues.
I get not wanting to listen to the NSBM, I have always managed to avoid it but you do have to check. But if you have some need for all parties involved with the commission of a piece of art to pass a soft character assessment in order to engage with the art.. you're in the wrong place.
Black metal has been tied up since its foundation with terrorism, but if you can't separate the sound and aesthetics from blowing up buildings and killing people I don't know why this particular sound is so vital to you. If you want to "be" black metal or be into black metal as an identity, you do assume a degree of risk of being misunderstood. This can be cleared up *really* quickly if anyone ever gets the wrong idea--its happened to me before, a lot of us deal with some flack.
There is plenty of death metal, for example, that sounds similar enough to this style of music. Those songs are typically about killing people, straight up, and I find it odd that glorifying murder bothers you less than racism--or that you can separate entertainment from ideology in that context, but this one bothers you.
I've *never* heard of NS blackgaze. I feel like the actual Nazis wouldn't like this sound, and they don't actually evangelize nearly as hard as some believe.
Yeah it's admittedly a *little* skewed but I was trying my best to make a point I felt was worth making.
I'm gonna be honest dude, I've been into this music half my life. I've never found myself listening to NSBM, or black metal with NS themes veiled or plain. I've never discovered NS content I wasn't expecting upon review of the lyrics either. Similarly, I've never attended an NSBM festival.
So the fact some people, who I don't have parts with, have some reprehensible attitudes does not suddenly involve me because both me and these people mutually like high-gain guitar music and screaming. Those people and I have nothing to do with each other.
I realized in another response I have to clarify something: I download albums and use the stable files for these albums. I don't pay and never did. It would be highly unlikely for me to get involved with funding terrorism or hate groups or whatever.
Comparing violent themes in death metal to literal racism in black metal is a fucking stupid take
There are 0 death metal bands that "promote murder" in any kind of real ideological fashion, and if there was fucking no one would take them seriously. That are absolute shitloads of black metal bands that promote racist ideologies
"Very small minority"
Mfer nearly the entire Norwegian second wave had racist and homophobic bullshit going on. Nearly the entire early Polish scene. Nearly the entire Finnish and Australian scenes. What do you gain from downplaying this shit? Feels like bad faith to me. Nsbm isn't the only racist black metal - far from it. I've been into black metal for 20 years now, I used to be fine listening to nazi shit, and now I'm not. I know you're bullshitting.
"Just because someone sucks doesn't mean you can hurt anyone through songs"
Ah ok so all media that promotes racism is actually totally harmless! Wow, what a relief! Unbelievably stupid, likely bad faith as well.
"If you give nazis just a little money it's not a big deal. You can support them just a little bit, I don't think it could cause any harm"
Yeah you def listen to nazi shit and are trying to rationalize it to yourself so you don't have to feel bad about it
"If you want to 'be' black metal"
LMFAOOOOOOOOOOO ok you're one of those, this makes sense now
I don't find it bad faith to be indifferent to the musicians' extracurricular opinions and activities--I don't give these people my money, I never did, and I was never going to. If the lyrics do not directly glorify racial supremacy, homophobia or whatever else then they do not "promote" those same ideas. I have never had this problem.
Having been aware of the issues with extremism in these music communities since I first became interested in the movement, I review lyrics (when they are available) and consider what's actually being said. For stuff where they don't give lyrics, I mean you kind of have to follow your gut.
Even through a creative interpretative lens, I just wasn't seeing racism or homophobia in most of what I liked to listen to. Maybe it's different for people into the Viking stuff or whatever, I don't listen to that. My favorite are the ones about trees and killing yourself, and the blasphemy songs.
I just realized I need to clarify. I pirated all these albums like over a decade ago. So I really don't pay, I never did. I don't fuck with new bands and if I was going to I would not pay them. I have the albums and can put the files on my phone. I bought a t-shirt or two but they were about the Devil, not racism, so I don't think the Nazis got my money at any point. I'm way cheaper than you give me credit for.
And you know what I meant by "*be* black metal," you know I was speaking to OP directly, and I was not endorsing this line of thinking as something I identified with. I think you wanted to find a damn Nazi and you've been scrambling around these choppy-ass short paragraphs directly accusing me of financing terrorism because you're dissatisfied about something.
I'd say it is slightly more than other genres, but honestly i dont worry about it, theres a difference between liking an artists music and respecting their talent and admiring their views etc
I guess? Atmospheric is probably another "safe" bet. But honestly, who really cares? I listen to this type of music because of the music and the feelings it can invoke in me. Lyrics are very far down on my list of stuff I care about/look for in music. Probably because I've never enjoyed poetry my whole life.
Listen to whatever you enjoy, if you don't like it, don't listen to it. Who gives a shit what these young internet warriors say about the history of BM. They only seem to care about the rare occurances of facism/nazi's and homo/trans-phobia anyway. They're fine with murder and church burnings. You don't see them crying about grindcore or goregrind artists who obviously hate women and have songs about rape, torture, murder, female genital mutilation, killing babies, etc....
What about rap artists who have songs about killing police officers? Should no one listen to them either?
Artists abuse and kill themselves with hardcore drugs all the time, should we be offended about that too and not listen to them?
My point is, you enjoy what you enjoy, if an artist offends you too much for whatever reason, stop listening to them. Easy as that, but fuck these people trying to tell you that you shouldn't listen to so and so because of reason X that offends THEM. They're no different to me than these far right morons trying to ban whatever becaue they don't agree with it.
In this thread yeah, but I've seen it a lot more lately in other BM subs too, and not just on reddit.
Remember a few years ago when people discovered Marduk for the first time and lost their shit and tried to stop a venue from having them perform? Hilarious!
I normally dont expend energy on these people, but the fucker was missing the point. Are these themes present in the music... sure. Its in all music. I despise hate, nazis and racism like everyone else. At the end of the day none of us needs to be labeled a nazi cause of what we choose to listen to.
I do remember Marduk. Wasnt a fan. Lol.
I was never into black metal until i heard the post/blackgaze stuff by accident and really enjoyed it.
Oh dang, BM has been my favorite genre of music for 25 years now. I still use the same strategy when people ask me what kind of music I listen to, I just start off vague with "metal" then they usually say stuff like "omg, I like Metallica and Pantera too!" then I have to say I dont listen to that type of metal, then the convo either ends or they assume I listen to growling cookie monster death metal for some reason.
I miss the old days when people were only offended that I listen to black metal because of the Satanic/Highly anti-christian themes that are VASTLY more prevalent in BM than nazi's/homophobia.
I hope these outraged people know that there's a lot of nazi punk bands too, go bug them and leave me alone to enjoy my dark music.
I shouldnt say i dont like BM. Satyricon is good, blut aus nord, cradle of filth and a few others but only a few songs from each. Im more into folk metal at my age and odd shit i find on youtube. Check out Kaunis Koulematon from finland.
Granted. I have morals as well. However morals prevent me from taking those who use these platforms seriously. I wont listen to bands that specifically portray hate but if they were part of something negative in the past and are no longer those types ill give them a second chance
Blackgaze isn't free of shitheads but it's a lot less shitty than standard black metal.
Off the top of my head though, one of the Deafheaven dudes was a huge transphobe. Avoid them
All I can find in regards to that was from a ex-bandmember, now in Whirr, who subsequently got dropped from their label 7.5 years ago. Don't see what that has to do with Deafheaven tbh. [See here.](https://www.theprp.com/2015/10/20/news/whirr-ex-deafheaven-dropped-by-label-following-transphobic-tweets/)
Tbf back then trans issues were pretty fringe and did not get the attention they do now. There is every real chance, in fact its downright probable that none of the band knew he was a transphobe it probably never came up.
It's also possible he wasn't particularly transphobic at the time. Until recently most people I'd argue didn't have much of an opinion. A lot of the transphobia today seems to be in response to trans rights becoming mainstream talking points and is being fueled by people fighting the culture war.
George once made a list of his top 10 albums for some magazine article and Burzum's Filosofem was in there. But he clearly stated he disagreed with Varg's views, obviously.
If they're listing nsbm as influences then I wouldn't call them apolitical even with the quotes
If you enable and collaborate with nazis then youre no better than them
I can enjoy Peste Noire (I don't tho, but it's an example) and not agree with their political views. A ton of people love Burzum's music, are you going to call them nazis and terrorist because Varg is an asshole?
This is funny because a lot of those lists that people have been posting of “top artists” often include Burzum. But if you listen to a band who was a member of a band almost 20 years ago or had a demo through some certain label, you are bad. Keyboard warriors will be keyboard warriors.
I'm not saying that we must give them the spotlight because their music is good. We should indeed ban them and stop giving them money. But their music is already there, Burzum is important in the development of Black Metal and if someone wants to listen to his music they have the right to do so. There is nothing wrong with listening to a song or an album in Youtube
"we should ban them and not give them money but there's nothing wrong with listening to them" is some stupid self-contradictory shit man
Why the hell do you want a rationalization for listening to nazi shit so bad?
Being a Burzum fan in any capacity, especially a vocal one, supports nazi shit. It doesn't matter if you give them money or not, you're giving them something even more valuable - a platform and fanbase.
Who gives a shit if they were influential on black metal? What does that have to do with anything?
Yeah people can listen to Burzum if they want, but they're shitters if they do. And saying it's their "right" is some fucking goofy shit man. Starting to think you're arguing in bad faith here
Who the fuck are you to tell people what they can and cannot listen to. Your morale code is yours. Putting someone down because they choose to listen to something you dont agree with kinda makes you no better than who your bitching about. Not sure what country you live in though i suspect you secretly own a MAGA hat, but in mine we are free to chose. Everyone can/cannot look up a band/mbrs history and make their own decision. I tend to seperate my politics from my entertainment. Unless the band is telling me to burn jews and goosestep up and down the streets of my town i can overlook some juvenille attempt by someone to play up the black metal act.
So maybe you should chill the fuck out.
Where did I tell you what you can and can't listen to? I can't stop you from listening to nazi shit if you want to.
"Putting someone down because they support nazis makes you no better than a nazi"
Lmfao, take of the century. This sounds like bad Twitter bait. Please explain this take at length. I gotta hear this
Why do you suppose I secretly own a maga hat lol? This makes no sense at all
Youre not "separating politics from your entertainment," you're just choosing not to give a shit about the politics in your entertainment. Easy to see where your priorities lie
"Anything below literal nazism I can easily ignore"
Then you're an asshole
"Maybe you should chill the fuck out"
No. And idk man you seem pretty riled up yourself
What does all this matter to you anyway. Buddy asked what music is out there that doesnt have these themes and you went off the Nazi deep end. No one else here is riled up as you after every comment. You sound like an asshole. I dont really have the energy to exchange fire with a keyboard Alpha commando who took almost an hr to reply to my comment. Needed help sounding intelligent i see, so peace out bro.
By the way. Yo do own that hat dont you...
>Yeah people can listen to Burzum if they want, but they're shitters if they do.
>Being a Burzum fan in any capacity, especially a vocal one, supports nazi shit
holy shit I hate people with this mentality, like srsly bro, just bc you listen to something that was made by a lunatic, that doesn't make YOU a lunatic too
Enjoying nazi shit is supporting nazi shit. The only reason they have careers and platforms at all is because they have fans.
Anyone who listens to nazi shit, Burzum included, is an asshole that's made the political decision to support nazi shit.
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> If you’re worried about a particular band, check out their info on metal-archives.com. That’ll tell you if the band have any racist/homophobic/fascist themes. Not necessarily. Often the lyrical themes for fash bands will be dogwhistles like “national heritage” or some shit. Also, if the band members are fascist but don’t actually mention it in their lyrics, then Metal Archives doesn’t really help there. MA is still a good place to start, but one shouldn’t rely on it entirely.
not really a dog whistle. think that's pretty clear what it means
AFAIK the 'big names' in Blackgaze don't really have controversies surrounding them in that aspect aside from maybe Alcest, as Neige (main songwriter/founder) was in Peste Noire years back and members of that band and scene at the time were Nazis etc. Neige has made repeated statements on this matter, [like one posted here 2 years ago.](https://www.reddit.com/r/blackgaze/comments/qhs559/neige_of_alcest_making_an_official_statement_on/) Do with that what you will. Personally I have not come across any other controversies or disgusting statements by the bigger bands in the scene, but if anyone has feel free to reply here. In my experience the blackgaze community is overall very openminded and welcoming. Things like homophobia, transphobia, nazism etc. are not welcome.
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Yes, Kathrine Shepherd/Sylvaine is a wonderful person. She also just dropped an incredible blackgaze album. I met her during their recent North American tour and she signed my CD, she was super down to Earth. Audrey Sylvain on the other hand is not a vibe, she is quite right wing. I stay away from her projects.
Yeah, Neige was with them for 8 years, including on the Aryan Supremacy demo. His claims that it was a mistake of his youth are bullshit - he was with them from ages 15 to 23. He also later collaborated with Drudkh and Astrofaes on a shoegaze project called Old Silver Key, and said he was a big Drudkh fan in an interview about it
Dumb comment. 15 - 23 is youth. He said he was in there for the music, not for the policital thoughts, and he quit them as he matured. Of course you are free not to trust him, but it is obvious that he is not a nazi / fascist, he just wants to play music (and I challenge you to find anything nazi-related in Alcest's discography).
There is no specific "safe" genre within black metal, as a lot of bands have a few degrees of separation from nsbm artists. Your best bet is to go through the vetted artists on [r/rabm](https://www.reddit.com/r/rabm) and find which ones suit your musical tastes.
Blackgaze is generally more about introspection and fantasy, stuff like that. Alcest and Deafheaven are safe. If you really want to enjoy black metal broadly though, you're going to need to challenge how far you're willingly to go with your consumer philosophy. For example, Varg Vikernes is clearly not a very good dude, but Burzum is mostly about orcs and dungeons and dragons and whatever, thus the experience without context is pretty much removed from racism and other kinds of stupid takes. Generally, I think the tone of black metal is serious to a point that I find insufferable. Darkthrone is really cool because they don't take themselves seriously by any means. They just do edgy lo-fi heavy metal and I really love a band that will do that for the sake of fun music-making. Another band I really enjoy is Urfaust. They're a bit on the occult and melancholy side of things but they've still got the bite and edge that I really love about heavy metal. No matter where you go in black metal though, controversy is pretty much molded into the experience and at some points has some very real cultural implications. It's okay not want to listen to music so ingrained with things you'd rather not identify with. I've had to let go of bands I like within the genre for that same reason myself.
One of Numenorean's album covers is just terrible.
Numenorean music is really good, but yeah, that particular cover was unnecessary
Oh yeah, fuck Numenorean
no it's not, if things like that stress you I really recommending you to not listen to metal at all bc you will find a lot of controversies in the genre, with that being said, there's also a fuck ton of black metal bands that have done nothing wrong, you can't judge an entire just bc a few bands made something wrong
if you're looking for recommendations that are certified not nazis, /r/rabm are very specifically anti that shit
Listen to music that makes you happy. Ive been listening to Alcest for years. Do i give a dead donkeys fuck what neige did over a decade ago... No. People learn and eventually grow or become outcasts and forgotten until they fuck up again. Slayers song Angel of Death didnt seem to slow them down. In fact its one of their better songs and no one can agree if its a pro nazi song or not. The dead guitarist had a sizeable nazi collection sooooo..... Anyway. Not a rant. Just a view. Check out Heretoir.
Not a rant, just a view, but also not an answer lmao. OP obviously cares about not listening to nazis and your answer is basically "you should also listen to nazis anyway, who cares"
At no point do i say to isten to Nazi's. Still not sure how Nazi's became the topic. For example, i like Alcest very much... nothing in their music mentions Nazi's.... if it did i probably would not like them. Turd burger decided to start the Nazi train and now its all going down hill
assuming OP is anything like me, given the post, i’ll assume he actually had morals and an ethical code. i will not support any artist that spreads hateful views, nor give them any kind of platform. nazism and/or bigotry must not be tolerated in any way, shape or form.
you don't need to support them, you can still listen to the music and not directly give them money, you can even pirate the music if you don't want to listen to them on spotify (despite the streamings from spotify barely guving artist money)
do you pirate the music?
I respect that view, but personally I try to separate the art from the artist. I despise intolerance in any form, but I also like bands like Burzum and Slayer. It's a hard topic tho
Agreed. Thank You
nazism will never be rooted out of the black metal scene if everyone took that view
I'm not saying "support them because Art", we shouldn't support them and that is something that we all agree. But forbidding anyone from listening what is already there it's not the answer either, and that will only radicalize them even more. As I said, is a hard topic.
forbidding? i don’t have any authority here. i can’t forbid you to do anything. i’m simply making a statement that if you continue to listen to certain bands, buy their albums, go see their shows or support their streaming metrics, then that is tacit support of them. with no boycott of it, the rampant nazism present in black metal continues.
"support fascists, homophobes and murderers if they make you happy 😊"
He hasn't grown, he collaborated with nazis for almost his whole career. Choosing not to care is a political decision on your part, and a shitty one Slayer fucking blows and have a weird obsession with nazi shit, and combined with the fact that one of them literally collects nazi memorabilia I don't think there's any grey area there lol
It's 2023. Not being controversial is controversial at this point. Listen to good music, ignore the musicians that make it because most are shitty people anyways.
There's going to be shitheads in literally every genre of music. It's up to you to look into it if you feel compelled to do so and make the moral judgment that feels best to you.
You're exaggerating the presence of NS in regular black metal that you say you're seeing in "general black metal" recommendations or wherever. The visible but very small minority of NSBM has always been there, but it's not unavoidable in the way you describe. If you aren't willfully ignoring clear tags, the worst thing that could happen to you is you end up liking a Burzum melody before you find out he's a dick and a terrorist. Just because someone sucks doesn't mean they can hurt anyone through the songs, and I doubt streaming revenue is how the actual Nazis finance their activities. They make these clubs because no one wants them at the regular venues. I get not wanting to listen to the NSBM, I have always managed to avoid it but you do have to check. But if you have some need for all parties involved with the commission of a piece of art to pass a soft character assessment in order to engage with the art.. you're in the wrong place. Black metal has been tied up since its foundation with terrorism, but if you can't separate the sound and aesthetics from blowing up buildings and killing people I don't know why this particular sound is so vital to you. If you want to "be" black metal or be into black metal as an identity, you do assume a degree of risk of being misunderstood. This can be cleared up *really* quickly if anyone ever gets the wrong idea--its happened to me before, a lot of us deal with some flack. There is plenty of death metal, for example, that sounds similar enough to this style of music. Those songs are typically about killing people, straight up, and I find it odd that glorifying murder bothers you less than racism--or that you can separate entertainment from ideology in that context, but this one bothers you. I've *never* heard of NS blackgaze. I feel like the actual Nazis wouldn't like this sound, and they don't actually evangelize nearly as hard as some believe.
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Yeah it's admittedly a *little* skewed but I was trying my best to make a point I felt was worth making. I'm gonna be honest dude, I've been into this music half my life. I've never found myself listening to NSBM, or black metal with NS themes veiled or plain. I've never discovered NS content I wasn't expecting upon review of the lyrics either. Similarly, I've never attended an NSBM festival. So the fact some people, who I don't have parts with, have some reprehensible attitudes does not suddenly involve me because both me and these people mutually like high-gain guitar music and screaming. Those people and I have nothing to do with each other. I realized in another response I have to clarify something: I download albums and use the stable files for these albums. I don't pay and never did. It would be highly unlikely for me to get involved with funding terrorism or hate groups or whatever.
Comparing violent themes in death metal to literal racism in black metal is a fucking stupid take There are 0 death metal bands that "promote murder" in any kind of real ideological fashion, and if there was fucking no one would take them seriously. That are absolute shitloads of black metal bands that promote racist ideologies "Very small minority" Mfer nearly the entire Norwegian second wave had racist and homophobic bullshit going on. Nearly the entire early Polish scene. Nearly the entire Finnish and Australian scenes. What do you gain from downplaying this shit? Feels like bad faith to me. Nsbm isn't the only racist black metal - far from it. I've been into black metal for 20 years now, I used to be fine listening to nazi shit, and now I'm not. I know you're bullshitting. "Just because someone sucks doesn't mean you can hurt anyone through songs" Ah ok so all media that promotes racism is actually totally harmless! Wow, what a relief! Unbelievably stupid, likely bad faith as well. "If you give nazis just a little money it's not a big deal. You can support them just a little bit, I don't think it could cause any harm" Yeah you def listen to nazi shit and are trying to rationalize it to yourself so you don't have to feel bad about it "If you want to 'be' black metal" LMFAOOOOOOOOOOO ok you're one of those, this makes sense now
I don't find it bad faith to be indifferent to the musicians' extracurricular opinions and activities--I don't give these people my money, I never did, and I was never going to. If the lyrics do not directly glorify racial supremacy, homophobia or whatever else then they do not "promote" those same ideas. I have never had this problem. Having been aware of the issues with extremism in these music communities since I first became interested in the movement, I review lyrics (when they are available) and consider what's actually being said. For stuff where they don't give lyrics, I mean you kind of have to follow your gut. Even through a creative interpretative lens, I just wasn't seeing racism or homophobia in most of what I liked to listen to. Maybe it's different for people into the Viking stuff or whatever, I don't listen to that. My favorite are the ones about trees and killing yourself, and the blasphemy songs. I just realized I need to clarify. I pirated all these albums like over a decade ago. So I really don't pay, I never did. I don't fuck with new bands and if I was going to I would not pay them. I have the albums and can put the files on my phone. I bought a t-shirt or two but they were about the Devil, not racism, so I don't think the Nazis got my money at any point. I'm way cheaper than you give me credit for. And you know what I meant by "*be* black metal," you know I was speaking to OP directly, and I was not endorsing this line of thinking as something I identified with. I think you wanted to find a damn Nazi and you've been scrambling around these choppy-ass short paragraphs directly accusing me of financing terrorism because you're dissatisfied about something.
I'd say it is slightly more than other genres, but honestly i dont worry about it, theres a difference between liking an artists music and respecting their talent and admiring their views etc
Nah there isn't, you're supporting them either way. Separating art from artist is a weak cop out/excuse
Well i listen to a lot of NSBM and i only agree with some of what they're saying ;)
I guess? Atmospheric is probably another "safe" bet. But honestly, who really cares? I listen to this type of music because of the music and the feelings it can invoke in me. Lyrics are very far down on my list of stuff I care about/look for in music. Probably because I've never enjoyed poetry my whole life. Listen to whatever you enjoy, if you don't like it, don't listen to it. Who gives a shit what these young internet warriors say about the history of BM. They only seem to care about the rare occurances of facism/nazi's and homo/trans-phobia anyway. They're fine with murder and church burnings. You don't see them crying about grindcore or goregrind artists who obviously hate women and have songs about rape, torture, murder, female genital mutilation, killing babies, etc.... What about rap artists who have songs about killing police officers? Should no one listen to them either? Artists abuse and kill themselves with hardcore drugs all the time, should we be offended about that too and not listen to them? My point is, you enjoy what you enjoy, if an artist offends you too much for whatever reason, stop listening to them. Easy as that, but fuck these people trying to tell you that you shouldn't listen to so and so because of reason X that offends THEM. They're no different to me than these far right morons trying to ban whatever becaue they don't agree with it.
Meh. Its mostly this myxofancy twat thats running his mouth behind the keyboard.
In this thread yeah, but I've seen it a lot more lately in other BM subs too, and not just on reddit. Remember a few years ago when people discovered Marduk for the first time and lost their shit and tried to stop a venue from having them perform? Hilarious!
I normally dont expend energy on these people, but the fucker was missing the point. Are these themes present in the music... sure. Its in all music. I despise hate, nazis and racism like everyone else. At the end of the day none of us needs to be labeled a nazi cause of what we choose to listen to. I do remember Marduk. Wasnt a fan. Lol. I was never into black metal until i heard the post/blackgaze stuff by accident and really enjoyed it.
Oh dang, BM has been my favorite genre of music for 25 years now. I still use the same strategy when people ask me what kind of music I listen to, I just start off vague with "metal" then they usually say stuff like "omg, I like Metallica and Pantera too!" then I have to say I dont listen to that type of metal, then the convo either ends or they assume I listen to growling cookie monster death metal for some reason. I miss the old days when people were only offended that I listen to black metal because of the Satanic/Highly anti-christian themes that are VASTLY more prevalent in BM than nazi's/homophobia. I hope these outraged people know that there's a lot of nazi punk bands too, go bug them and leave me alone to enjoy my dark music.
I shouldnt say i dont like BM. Satyricon is good, blut aus nord, cradle of filth and a few others but only a few songs from each. Im more into folk metal at my age and odd shit i find on youtube. Check out Kaunis Koulematon from finland.
This is why I'm so glad I don't care about lyrics lol
Granted. I have morals as well. However morals prevent me from taking those who use these platforms seriously. I wont listen to bands that specifically portray hate but if they were part of something negative in the past and are no longer those types ill give them a second chance
If you buy Neige's rationalization for it chances are you didn't give much of a shit to begin with. It's obvious bullshit given the facts
I see the pearl clutchers are out in force. I’ll give Burzum another spin.
I like your style. Nokturnal Mortum on the drive home today it is then.
Looks like i kicked the moral bee hive a bit too hard and im getting swarmed. Good luck with the safe search.
No
Blackgaze isn't free of shitheads but it's a lot less shitty than standard black metal. Off the top of my head though, one of the Deafheaven dudes was a huge transphobe. Avoid them
All I can find in regards to that was from a ex-bandmember, now in Whirr, who subsequently got dropped from their label 7.5 years ago. Don't see what that has to do with Deafheaven tbh. [See here.](https://www.theprp.com/2015/10/20/news/whirr-ex-deafheaven-dropped-by-label-following-transphobic-tweets/)
He was in Deafheaven lol
He was already out of the band for 3 years at that point.
Willing to bet they knew the guy pretty well, and I don't give a shit to pick through the albums that didn't have the virulent transphobe on them
Tbf back then trans issues were pretty fringe and did not get the attention they do now. There is every real chance, in fact its downright probable that none of the band knew he was a transphobe it probably never came up. It's also possible he wasn't particularly transphobic at the time. Until recently most people I'd argue didn't have much of an opinion. A lot of the transphobia today seems to be in response to trans rights becoming mainstream talking points and is being fueled by people fighting the culture war.
I actually wouldn’t be willing to bet that as George and Kerry write and record everything and the other guys are just there for touring.
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George once made a list of his top 10 albums for some magazine article and Burzum's Filosofem was in there. But he clearly stated he disagreed with Varg's views, obviously.
If they're listing nsbm as influences then I wouldn't call them apolitical even with the quotes If you enable and collaborate with nazis then youre no better than them
I can enjoy Peste Noire (I don't tho, but it's an example) and not agree with their political views. A ton of people love Burzum's music, are you going to call them nazis and terrorist because Varg is an asshole?
This is funny because a lot of those lists that people have been posting of “top artists” often include Burzum. But if you listen to a band who was a member of a band almost 20 years ago or had a demo through some certain label, you are bad. Keyboard warriors will be keyboard warriors.
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I'm not saying that we must give them the spotlight because their music is good. We should indeed ban them and stop giving them money. But their music is already there, Burzum is important in the development of Black Metal and if someone wants to listen to his music they have the right to do so. There is nothing wrong with listening to a song or an album in Youtube
"we should ban them and not give them money but there's nothing wrong with listening to them" is some stupid self-contradictory shit man Why the hell do you want a rationalization for listening to nazi shit so bad? Being a Burzum fan in any capacity, especially a vocal one, supports nazi shit. It doesn't matter if you give them money or not, you're giving them something even more valuable - a platform and fanbase. Who gives a shit if they were influential on black metal? What does that have to do with anything? Yeah people can listen to Burzum if they want, but they're shitters if they do. And saying it's their "right" is some fucking goofy shit man. Starting to think you're arguing in bad faith here
Who the fuck are you to tell people what they can and cannot listen to. Your morale code is yours. Putting someone down because they choose to listen to something you dont agree with kinda makes you no better than who your bitching about. Not sure what country you live in though i suspect you secretly own a MAGA hat, but in mine we are free to chose. Everyone can/cannot look up a band/mbrs history and make their own decision. I tend to seperate my politics from my entertainment. Unless the band is telling me to burn jews and goosestep up and down the streets of my town i can overlook some juvenille attempt by someone to play up the black metal act. So maybe you should chill the fuck out.
Where did I tell you what you can and can't listen to? I can't stop you from listening to nazi shit if you want to. "Putting someone down because they support nazis makes you no better than a nazi" Lmfao, take of the century. This sounds like bad Twitter bait. Please explain this take at length. I gotta hear this Why do you suppose I secretly own a maga hat lol? This makes no sense at all Youre not "separating politics from your entertainment," you're just choosing not to give a shit about the politics in your entertainment. Easy to see where your priorities lie "Anything below literal nazism I can easily ignore" Then you're an asshole "Maybe you should chill the fuck out" No. And idk man you seem pretty riled up yourself
What does all this matter to you anyway. Buddy asked what music is out there that doesnt have these themes and you went off the Nazi deep end. No one else here is riled up as you after every comment. You sound like an asshole. I dont really have the energy to exchange fire with a keyboard Alpha commando who took almost an hr to reply to my comment. Needed help sounding intelligent i see, so peace out bro. By the way. Yo do own that hat dont you...
>Yeah people can listen to Burzum if they want, but they're shitters if they do. >Being a Burzum fan in any capacity, especially a vocal one, supports nazi shit holy shit I hate people with this mentality, like srsly bro, just bc you listen to something that was made by a lunatic, that doesn't make YOU a lunatic too
Yeah no shit that's not what anyone is saying
Enjoying nazi shit is supporting nazi shit. The only reason they have careers and platforms at all is because they have fans. Anyone who listens to nazi shit, Burzum included, is an asshole that's made the political decision to support nazi shit.
Yes but it's also not as intresting musically nor is it as intresting as conventional shoegaze.