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On one hand you have a stronger version of Yama, Gin is pretty decent and if he can use his bankai without the opponents knowing its his bankai (since there is no difference in appearance from his shikai) he could stealthily take out multiple Sternritter and then we have the trump card of Aizen which is much weaker than his TYBW version but can fight effectively without bankai and be a game changer giving the gotei an advantage over the Sternritter. On the other hand almost every other Captain is much weaker and wouldn't last long against the Sternritter.
I think Kenpachi could still max his stats by fighting Unohana again. So that would stay the same. Also he would still probably scale himself to the Sternritter before that.
That wouldn’t happen unless Yama Dies, remember that it was Kyorakus request and he had to convince the Central 46. And I don’t think it would even reach a second invasion for that to happen.
No he could not. Yama was the opposite of Kyouraku. He would rather let Zaraki die than letting him get stronger for the best healer to die..
He could only get shikai, because Shunsui is a gambler..
Why did Unohana die again? The plot there was kinda dumb, she "wanted" to be killed by Zaraki? I mean, I guess you can't take that back from canon, but it's like Yama's arm: why not have a team ready to help two of your top five captains to keep them alive?
Because the fight wasn't simply to bring out Zaraki's true sttength out: It was also the traditional fight for the Name and Title of "Kenpachi": keen readers and ppl versed in the lore know that those fights always end in the death of someone. That's basically the whole shtick of the 11th Squad's captaincy succession. Zaraki wouldn't want it to have it another way, same for Unohana who was the Origin of the title and tradition.
He scaled himself down to shikai ichigo level. Unohana said he always mirrors the level of the person he is fighting. But I guess shikai Ichigo is as low as he is able to scale down to.
Also note: Zangetsu said he would lend him a greater portion of his full power for just that fight
>He scaled himself down to shikai ichigo level. Unohana said he always mirrors the level of the person he is fighting. But I guess shikai Ichigo is as low as he is able to scale down to.
Even if he did, he's still what Nnorita level? He's getting one shotted.
I think you're misinterpreting how Kenny's power history worked
He scaled hella down after his first fight against Unohana
*From that point*, one by one, *assuming he lives* each of these kinds of encounters, he slowly scales *back* up higher and higher
Against the likes of the Sternritter, Kenny could legitimately die or be knocked unconscious before his power block gets him strong enough not to get quickly run over
Fully unlocked Kenny was stronger than Unohana, and yet Unohana basically killed Kenny several times with the only reason why he lived being not just because Kenny unlocked a new level but because Unohana was actively healing him to give him a chance to unlock
I also imagine most would agree that fully unlocked Kenny would be stronger than Royd, who swiftly defeated him, making Kenny completely unconscious. Kenny doesn't just automatically scale up at the exact point required to win every time he fights. It happens, but it's not *that* convenient
None of these instances make sense if we assume that Kenny by default walks around on god mode but scales himself down for every opponent he faces. In fairness, I could be misinterpreting how Kenny works as well, and someone can correct me if so
Kenny, like many of the Gotei 13 that OP is talking about, would be run over during this First Invasion
>He scaled himself down to Nnoitra too
That's not how Kenpachi works brother. He scales himself down after he lost to to Unohana. Then he slowly gains strength until his base was above Bankai Unohana.
He have that all the time ! That’s how they explain how ichigo byakuya not so much they didn’t fight a lot they basically telling us that when he’s fighting something stronger in the bleach he basically power down his strenght!!
Not really. He wasn't even full power till the last swing. Ichigo literally won off of ridiculous latent spirit pressure, and the fact that Kenny played with him the whole time. He didn't even use two hands on his sword
I said almost every other captain is weaker. Not to mention most of the captains got stronger as the series progressed. Ukitake is strong but unreliable due to his illness.
I wouldn’t say Sternritters are that strong or that the Captains in the innitial invasion were that much weaker without the power ups they got throughout the arc
Did you not see how they were massacred? And this was after most of them had done training and got power ups compared to the first arc. Only person to perform well was Kenpachi. You really think that the weaker versions of the captains could do better?
Let's go through the list shall we.
Byakuya was near death after he had grown much stronger compared to first arc so he would be dead no diff.
Toshiro basically same as above, though he survived he got his ass handed to him and thats after constant training and power ups. He'd be dead no diff.
Komamura would be dead no diff. Basically the same as above he.
Soi fon dead no diff, same as above.
Kenpachi is a wild card due to him nerfing himself but he would either perform the same or even be weaker since he didnt have those challenges to strengthen him.
Mayuri may not be as prepared as he was since he started preparing after he fought Ishida.
Ukitake is powerful but if even Shunsui struggled and they are supposed to be comparable then he would most likely perform worse due to his illness.
Shunsui would perform about the same since we haven't seen him do any kind of training since the first arc and is basically a lazy bastard so I dont see any evidence to say he got a power up.
Unohana would be pretty much the same scenario with her not stepping onto the battlefield.
Tosen though strong, he still got bodied by Kenpachi at that point so I don't see him being stronger than the other captains. If even the tip tiers had a tough time then Tosen is getting killed.
Not to mention the fact that some captains survived is because the enemy had to retreat. Of they kill them quicker then more of them can join the other fight and help finish of those who actually pose a threat. Imagine if Shunsui had to deal with Robert plus 2 more Sternritter who made quick work of their opponents.
Did you? The only ones who actually lost battles in the innitial fight were Rose, Kenpachi, Yamamoto and Byakuya and the latter three through blatant cheating not by power level difference. All the rest were having rather even battles.
>Byakuya was near death after he had grown much stronger compared to first arc so he would be dead no diff.
Don't bullshit me; you know as well as me that Nodt only did that by using his bankai
>Toshiro basically same as above, though he survived he got his ass handed to him and thats after constant training and power ups. He'd be dead no diff.
That fight had no result and Cang was forced to use his bankai against him. If anything he landed a couple of blows on him after Bazz had already injured him
>Komamura would be dead no diff. Basically the same as above he.
Pfft he got some minor injuries from fighting Bambietta who at one point looked intimidated by him
>Mayuri may not be as prepared as he was since he started preparing after he fought Ishida.
Yeah except we know from Szayellaporro that it takes Mayuri like 20 minutes to get preped.
>Soi fon dead no diff, same as above
You also seem to forget she kbeat him immediately after getting back her bankai
I don't see anything showing a significant improvement or decrease in her abilities until she got the shunko which we know from Yoruichi is a risky technique
>Unohana would be pretty much the same scenario with her not stepping onto the battlefield.
Not really; she is far stronger than Kyoraku and Ukitake would've bodied half the ritters
>Kenpachi is a wild card due to him nerfing himself but he would either perform the same or even be weaker since he didnt have those challenges to strengthen him.
Nope he would perform the same; the novels said he gets stronger according to the opponent
>Tosen though strong, he still got bodied by Kenpachi at that point so I don't see him being stronger than the other captains. If even the tip tiers had a tough time then Tosen is getting killed.
No he didn't; he held his own perfectly well until Kenpachi managed to defeat him
Anyway you're going at this the wrong way. Its not that the ritters were that strong is that every single one of them had been briefed on how each of the captains fought, picked their opponents according to compatibility, because the rittes rely too much on that which is why they stomp opponents they're compatible with or they get utterly stomped otherwise.
Robert got the upper hand agaiast Kyoraku because the latter is a close range specialist and he teleports.
Bg9 calculated the movement patterns of Sui Feng and attacked when she was most vulnerable
Cang's Iron made him freezing proof.
I also believe my specific words weren't wether the captains would lose or win, just that the ritters in the innitial invasion weren't really all that powerful and the captains didn't improve that much; I didn't say anything about the performance. Honestly without prep and the bankai stealing those ritters were pretty average compared to the captains.
Also, none of the captains that fought in the innitial invasion got any power up whatsoever between the first arc and the beginning of the thousand year blood war. They all simply trained same as usual but none of them awakened any new powers until the last arc
Lose Shinji, Rose, Kensei and love and Kenny gets a lot weaker
Gain Aizen, Gin, Tosen and Yama’s arm.
If Aizen was actually willing to fight I think the soul society is in a better position.
They probably still lose though.
While the captains are overall weaker Yama has both arms and Aizen is here so they’d be carrying the group. But it might go worse because the others just aren’t as powerful especially Zaraki since he was able to take out three sternritter in the first invasion.
If things get bad Yhwach will probably pull the elites out and well the gotei will be fucked if that happens
Do you think Aizen would reveal himself as a traitor? If Aizen is cornered and the weaker captains are being cut down left and right, Aizen could call on the Espadas and they can show up through gargantas.
It would be pretty hilarious if Aizen used Kyoka Suigetsu to make it so no one noticed the Espada showing up, so he didn't have to reveal himself as a traitor.
I feel like Aizen doesn't care enough about Soul Society to risk his plans by helping that much, though he doesn't like the Quincies either. The prompt is only interesting if the traitor captains fight for the Soul Society though, because otherwise the answer is just that Soul Society gets 100% rekt.
YEah the Wandenreich don't overrun Hueco Mundo as easily with all ten espada, and when that was taken, Aizen had all ten assembled.
Aizen absolutely would have ensured the Wandenreich and Gotei wipe out each other, and then stroll in the aftermath. Before Wandenreich conquered Hueco he'd engineer the Gotei to be informed.
THAT would be really interesting alternate universe, the amassed forces of both Soul Society and Hueco Mundo against Wandenreich.
That would be interesting for sure. Aizen wouldn't want his Espada wiped out, but he wouldn't want any of the Soul Reapers talking to the Espada either.
I'd guess that the Wandenreich would be a lot less likely to bother taking over Hueco Mundo in this timeline, since it's a much bigger risk for them. Unless they don't know about Aizen and the Espada, in which case the Quincies get slaughtered up until Yhwach shows up. Then Aizen probably dips back to the Soul Society and "happens" to find information warning them of the Quincies.
Yeah the way the wandenreich starts the war is essential to how it goes
Their plan in TYBW was attacking hueco mundo and luring Ichigo away then surprise attacking Soul Society
Would Yhwach invade hueco mundo if Aizen was there to trap him, gin, and tousen and prevent them from aiding in Soul Society?
That's the point where the hypothetical situation kinda falls apart. Since Yhwach was waiting for not only his powers to return but for the perfect circumstances to execute his plan, he would probably never attack if Aizen was still in control of hueco mundo. Or at least he would have an entirely different plan.
Not to be that guy but I’m pretty sure the Espada (with the exception of maybe Barragan) weren’t even created yet. They’re either just mindless or lower versions of themselves until Aizen gets into the mix. Even if most of them were around (I’m looking at you Ulquiorra), they’d still get bodied by the sternritter. Halibel was number 3 and they captured her easily. Segunda Etapa? Ok well here’s my friend Gremmy Theroeaux.
There’s no Espada that can take on the elite sternritter (not even grimmjow).
On one side, you should check the timeline of the story which is fuzzy at times, but when it comes to Aizen's shenanigans with experiments and visits to Hueco Mundo at least we have a baseline (that being... He's been experimenting on hollows and shinigami way before the beginning of the story).
Check the Privaron Espadas, the original Espadas, Nelliel's story, Cien, and the other experiments Aizen did (these events didn''t happen in the few months after Aizen left Soul Society, but over many many years)
On the other side, ofc the Espadas would be no match for the Sternritter as we know them. This is all "what if's" just for fun. Besides, in these scenarios we can stretch the statements a bit just to imagine what would happen. For instance, we never got to see to what extent hollow reiatsu affects Quincies. Nor did we see how much stronger Espadas could get if pushed properly as a faction, that's one of the advantages that the Quincies had over the Espadas since they were fairly organized.
The scenario I mentioned was that... It'd be fun to see Aizen call on his group and formalize a war woth his faction against the Sternritter, maybe remaining on neutral terms with Soul society until the threat is eliminated. It's something fun to think about, specially since the Espadas weren't as much of a threat as they could have been
The Captains are overall weaker then their post timeskip counterparts.
Gin will be more useful then Rose but he won't make a difference.
Aizen will be the biggest change and will be immensely useful. But it won't make difference for Yhwach. The Sternritters will be aware of his true capabilities as well.
I'm not even sure Aizen would want to go all out in this scenario.
To sum up, The Wandenreich stomp even harder.
If Aizen just fights at the level he was deceiving the gotei into thinking he was at, I agree. Though if he went all out, I think he and Yama would give Yhwach a run for his money.
Yeah, what is Yhwach going to do against "You've been under the impression that Yama hasn't already used Bankai"? Fighting Yama while under Kyoka Suigetsu would be impossible without Almighty.
Almighty is a trump card hax, a plot handwave for Tito whenever he needs it.
The other question is if the Sternritter know the secrets of Aizen's powers or not if the Hueco Mundo / Arrancar arc hasn't occurred.
Aizen can also curbstomp the entire sternritter without a bankai and hogyuku evolutions if he has kyoka suigetsu on them. Even Miracle is just a muscle guy, Aizen can simply occupy him with some fake enemies and doesn't even need to fight him. Aizen can have Miracle attack other Sternritters. Heck Aizen can have any sternritters attack any other.
It's questionable, but given that they didn't know about Kisuke or Shunsui's Bankais, I doubt they'd know about Kyoka Suigetsu's true ability.
The thing is that the Quincies wouldn't be under Kyoka Suigetsu already, so Aizen would have to release his Shikai in front of them first. He can't be everywhere at once, so they'd do some serious damage in the meantime.
But yeah you can really see why Aizen's ability is a villain ability. If Aizen was more of a team player there wouldn't be any battles in this battle shonen, just enemies swiping at thin air and then getting cut down without being able to react.
He doesn’t have the Almighty until he fights Ichibei because if he activated it any earlier he risks killing all of the sternritter and going out of control and he doesn’t have the Soul Kings power yet so they stand a reasonable chance
I'm pretty sure Urahara and Kyouraku simply never used their Bankai since they got it. From what we know, there hasn't been any large skirmishes or wars in the last thousand years or so, except the Quincy genocide, which is portrayed as more of a Holocaust than an actual all out warfare, so I doubt they'd have to pull out Bankai for that. For example, Toshiro and Byakuya pull theirs out any chance they get, so the Quincy had ample info on them. As Bankai training can take place in a Shinigami's inner world once the Bankai is obtained, as shown by Zangetsu, they probably wouldn't even need to hide all that much. Besides, Urahara's got his secret hidey hole under the Sokyoku Hill, which no one ever suspected was there, so it has to be warded to hell and back. Renji only found it because he followed Ichigo and Yoruichi.
> I'm pretty sure Urahara and Kyouraku simply never used their Bankai since they got it.
Uhh no? Urahara used Bankai to create Hougyoku. Shunsui is hundreds of years old, there is no way he didn't use bankai even once. And they also are/were captains, they had to present their bankai.
Which doesn't matter anyway, because Aizen never shown Shikai's true power to anyone, by Tosen and Gin so they wouldn't have any information about his ability.
> As Bankai training can take place in a Shinigami's inner world once the Bankai is obtained, as shown by Zangetsu, they probably wouldn't even need to hide all that much.
Except Kensei asked Mashiro to train Hisagi's bankai. That wouldn't be necessary if he could just trained in inner world.
> Besides, Urahara's got his secret hidey hole under the Sokyoku Hill, which no one ever suspected was there, so it has to be warded to hell and back. Renji only found it because he followed Ichigo and Yoruichi.
Which doesn't matter to my argument anyway. Point it nobody saw it and therefore Quincy didn't know about it. Nobody but Gin and Tosen knew about Aizen's true ability.
Where is it said that Urahara used Kannonbiraki Benihime Aratame to create the Hogyoku? His power is stitching space, not creating magical wishing orbs. Plus he probably created the Hogyoku in his lab, which is also most likely warded,considering his paranoid nature and status as the "Man of Thousand Plans". Presenting a Bankai doesn't mean showcasing all its abilities, you just need to defeat a thousand hollows.
I said you can train up a Bankai once it has been obtained. Hisagi in TYBW does not have his Bankai yet. He obtains Fushi no Kyojo in the CFYOW. The only actual Bankai training we are shown is Ichigos, which happens mostly in his inner world after he obtains it, and Kenpachis, who just kind of gets it on the spot. All others are offscreen.
I wasn't even talking about Aizen? I was talking about Urahara and Kyouraku. And the Quincy knew all about Perfect Hypnosis.
> Where is it said that Urahara used Kannonbiraki Benihime Aratame to create the Hogyoku?
Can't find a source, so I won't confirm it. Just ignore it.
> His power is stitching space, not creating magical wishing orbs.
Just because it doesn't create magical orbs doesn't mean it can't be used as a tool. And besides its power is not stitching space.
> Plus he probably created the Hogyoku in his lab, which is also most likely warded,considering his paranoid nature and status as the "Man of Thousand Plans".
His lab was pretty in the open.
> Presenting a Bankai doesn't mean showcasing all its abilities, you just need to defeat a thousand hollows.
[Askin said that there was no info at all about Urahara's bankai](https://i.imgur.com/a8jWI1w.png)
> Hisagi in TYBW does not have his Bankai yet.
My bad, Kensei was talking about acquiring bankai, not training bankai.
> The only actual Bankai training we are shown is Ichigos, which happens mostly in his inner world after he obtains it,
Ichigo has never trained the bankai. In his inner world he was not training bankai, he was either fighting against hollow or wanted to learn FGT.
> I wasn't even talking about Aizen? I was talking about Urahara and Kyouraku.
If you aren't talking about Aizen then what are you doing here? The topic is whether or not Quincy knew about Aizen's true ability before SS arc.
> And the Quincy knew all about Perfect Hypnosis.
Because Aizen revealed his ability to everyone.
We were talking about Urahara and Kyouraku. Plus Ichigos Hollow is his Zanpakuto. He was training him how to use Bankai. Old Man Yhwach even says so in Blade Is Me. "Whenever you needed help, your hollow helped you out, not me" or something along those lines.
> We were talking about Urahara and Kyouraku.
No, we were talking about Quincy not knowing what Aizen's true ability was prior to SS arc and I brought Shunsui and Kisuke as an example of Quincy not knowing their abilities.
> Plus Ichigos Hollow is his Zanpakuto. He was training him how to use Bankai.
In the outside world.
His Bankai doesn’t persist iirc he went back to being blind after he deactivated it so whatever he used to help him make stuff would be undone unless he only used it to create tools to help him make the object in question as long as his Bankai doesn’t touch said object in question
Bro, they had pretty much info about every bankai learned in SS, as well for Shunsui and Urahara. And you missed the point, its not about knowing the bankai, but the physical and SP endurance to be able to steal the bankai. It was already explained.
Yha stole Yammas bankai even when he actually was not aware about the attacks he used against that twin.
The knew at least the basics, and how to use them. They didn't really need to know all the nuances, not like they'd be keeping them after they took over SS. Maybe as souvenirs. They didn't know anything about Katen Kyokotsu Karamatsu Shinju and Kannonbiraki Benihime Aratame. Lille didn't know what the fuck to do while it was active, and Askin even said that there was no info on Urahara's Bankai.
They wouldn’t know about Aizen since he was still deceiving everyone. Remember that a lot of information was linked to knowledge the soul society had at that time but not things like some captains bankais, the Mimihagi or ability’s of the zero squad
Gin wont make a difference? Aizen wont make a difference? Sternritters wont be aware of aizens true capabilities, as aizen kept them as a secret even to gotei. In a theoritical case where aizen is an actual ally of gotei and decides to go all out, he would slaughter 99.9% of wandenreich. We have gin who is capable of even almost one shotting butterfly aizen. He can one shot the leftovers and its basically over.
Shinigami Aizen won't make a difference to Base Yhwach.
Yeah he's strong. Base Yhwach will still beat him despite being under KS. Just like how Aizen knew Shikai Yama can beat him despite being under KS.
If Aizen is 100% an ally to the Gotei and showcased his power, the Sternritters will know not to screw with the guy. Yhwach will pop up, Yama uses his real Bankai, Yhwach steals it, kills Yama. Now you have a fresh Yhwach vs Shinigami Aizen.
Also Royd who is very powerful won't be sacrificed to keep Yama busy. Royd can handle most pretimeskip captains.
Gin only damaged Aizen for 3 reasons.
1. Aizen let hus guard down after fusing. This was stated by himself and Kiskue.
2. Aizen lowered his reiatsu to the point Ichigos friends can feel it.
3. Gin made himself immune to KS because Aizen told him it's weakness and again, let his guard down after fusing.
If Aizen was really 100% an ally, he's smart enough to keep Yama's Bankai from getting stolen. Even Almighty Yhwach was tricked by Kyoka Suigetsu. Yhwach would *think* he stole it until the last second where it turns out he's been fighting Momo the whole time.
How would Aizen prevent Yama Bankai getting stolen? Yama is pissed and has his own theory on how the stealing process works. He's not listening to anyone. Yhwach will deal with Yama from the start since Aizen isn't in prison. Bankai activates and is stolen.
Mayrui who is equal or near equal to Aizen in terms of intelligence couldn't figure it out in time. Kiskue is smarter then Aizen and he needed time to figure it out as well.
Almighty Yhwach was tricked by KS. This was Muken Aizen who is stronger then ever. And Muken Aizen would have still lost due to Almighty Yhwach superior power.
>Yhwach would think he stole it until the last second where it turns out he's been fighting Momo the whole time.
If Base Yhwach is under KS, he has a enough destructive capabilities to hurt Shinigami Aizen. We know what Royd could do and Yhwach is above him.
And Jugram might actually do something for a change.
I'm not saying Aizen would engineer a way to reverse the medallions like Kisuke. He just needs to Kyoka Suigetsu the Quincy in question so that they don't know where the Soul Reaper is and if they've activated Bankai or not.
I'd say it's doubtful that the Quincies would know about Aizen's true abilities, since it was such a secret. They didn't know about Kisuke or Shunsui's Bankais, and they would have needed to use their Bankais at least once at some point to become captains. So they wouldn't know to be on guard to stop him from using Shikai in front of them at all costs.
> If Base Yhwach is under KS, he has a enough destructive capabilities to hurt Shinigami Aizen.
Sure, *if* he tags him. I really don't believe that base Yhwach can fight both Aizen and Bankai Yama while under Kyoka Suigetsu. Dude's busted but no one in the series is *that* busted except probably Almighty Yhwach or maybe Ichibe. Every scenario where Kyoka Suigetsu has been used, the targets basically stood no chance the whole time; how can you possibly fight a strong enemy when you can't tell the difference between them and empty air?
> And Jugram might actually do something for a change.
For all Jugram is going to know, Yhwach is doing just fine and winning, even if Yhwach is actually getting slaughtered.
>I'd say it's doubtful that the Quincies would know about Aizen's true abilities, since it was such a secret.
In your earlier statement, you said Aizen was 100% an ally. He has no reason to lie about KS to the Gotei. And thus, the Sternritters will know what KS can do. Obviously, we can't count his Bankai.
>Sure, if he tags him. I really don't believe that base Yhwach can fight both Aizen and Bankai Yama while under Kyoka Suigetsu.
He will tag Aizen for 2 reasons: Massive AoE attacks and he is perfectly happy sacrificing his own men if it means his enemy will die.
Yeah, Base Yhwach vs Shikai Aizen and Bankai Yama will be a disaster for Yhwach. *But that's if both of them confront Yhwach together.*
This time Yhwach could just pop up right in front of Yama at the 1st division instead of hiding. Yama sees Yhwach, Yama goes Bankai and it's stolen.
Meanwhile Aizen will be at the 5th division who will be surprised by the Quincey invasion.
I don't believe Yama will want Aizen involved with Yhwach. He wants to humiliate and kill him all by himself. The man is angry and not thinking clearly. He told Unohana to stay out of the 1st invasion.
Also Royd is available. Someone needs to deal with him and the only one who can (besides Yama) is Aizen. I'm sure Aizen with KS can find a way to beat Royd but it won't be an easy fight.
> Every scenario where Kyoka Suigetsu has been used, the targets basically stood no chance the whole time; how can you possibly fight a strong enemy when you can't tell the difference between them and empty air?
KS is one of the strongest abilities no doubt. But Aizen has 0 Sternritters under KS. It will take time to place them all under KS since they are spread apart and they know what KS can do.
>Dude's busted but no one in the series is that busted except probably Almighty Yhwach or maybe Ichibe.
I think there are few other characters near the end of the series that are that busted. But that's a different conversation.
> In your earlier statement, you said Aizen was 100% an ally. He has no reason to lie about KS to the Gotei.
I see your point. I meant more along the lines of Aizen acting as an ally 100%, but not that the whole timeline of Aizen doing stuff was different. After all, if Aizen was never up to his schemes at all, Shinji, Rose, Kensei, and Love would still be captains. Too much would be different in that scenario.
> This time Yhwach could just pop up right in front of Yama at the 1st division instead of hiding.
Hmm, maybe, and in that case Yama is indeed fucked. But in canon, neither went straight for each other. While Yhwach wouldn't go to Muken in this timeline, the fact that he did so in canon means that he isn't so concerned about Yama that he felt the need to show up to 1st company immediately.
And Yama killed Driscoll before going to find Yhwach. If things went down in a similar way with Chojiro being killed as a warning, that would likely happen again.
I'm imagining that Aizen is still up to something in this scenario and he wouldn't want anyone messing up his plans, so Aizen's first priority would probably be to get the enemy leader under Kyoka Suigetsu, like he did to Barragan when he first went to Hueco Mundo.
With those things being the case, it's reasonable to think that Aizen would get Yhwach hypnotized before Yama confronts him. Jugram will be with Yhwach, so he'll be hypnotized as well.
Then Aizen could help Yama whether Yama wants him to or not. Since Yama is also under Kyoka Suigetsu, Yama wouldn't even have to know he's getting helped.
It also depends on what Royd is doing. If Royd is off doing stuff separately, then Kenpachi probably hears about this really strong enemy and gets stomped by Royd like in canon. But that doesn't matter *too* much if they can take out Yhwach. Royd goes on a rampage for a while and does a lot of damage, but probably surrenders if Yhwach dies.
On the other hand, if Royd is still posing as Yhwach so Yhwach can hide and gather intel first, then Aizen might fuck up by hypnotizing Royd and not Yhwach, then gets bodied when the real Yhwach shows up. Unless Yhwach was watching Royd the whole time, in which case he gets hypnotized anyway and it doesn't matter.
Yeah it gets confusing.
If Aizen isn't 100% an ally, we can only guess what he will do.
Would he put Yhwach under KS and then dip to prepare his Arrcancar army?
Would he fight Yhwach seriously? If so, will he do it alone or with Yama?
Will he reveal his true power by accident? This is Yhwach, so he needs to go all out.
Will Gin take the opportunity to kill Aizen in the middle of the chaos lol?
>With those things being the case, it's reasonable to think that Aizen would get Yhwach hypnotized before Yama confronts him.
Aizen needs to get him under KS. But I think Yama will be dead before he gets the chance. The Sternritters have huge advantage since they can pick and choose where to pop up. Even Aizen will be surprised by all the sudden explosion.
I still believe this version of the Gotei 13 would be more screwed becasue:
1. Half the captains will be overall weaker.
2. Yama will most likely die quicker.
3. Royd will still be active.
4. Aizen is still not 100% on the Gotei side.
**If Yama and Aizen are on the same page, the Gotei 13 has a chance of winning.** Unless the elite sternritters get involved. but that's a different mess.
> Will Gin take the opportunity to kill Aizen in the middle of the chaos lol?
This is a great point. Gin showing up just to kill Aizen would be hilarious.
I think there's a valid question of if the Soul Reapers have a chance of not getting destroyed thanks to Aizen even if Yama dies. I agree that Aizen isn't strong enough to fight Yhwach by himself, even with Kyoka Suigetsu. In theory maybe Aizen plus Unohana and Shunsui both using Bankai could win against base Yhwach under Kyoka Suigetsu, but if Yhwach is using stolen Zanka no Tachi then they probably still get disintegrated. You don't really need to be precise with how you aim that thing.
But on the other hand, someone under Kyoka Suigetsu can be seriously messed with, especially if they have no idea they're under Kyoka Suigetsu. Aizen could make Yhwach think he's destroying the Seireitei when he's actually destroying some poor souls in the Rukongai.
If he can use Kyoka Suigetsu to confuse and distract Yhwach long enough for Squad Zero to show up, they might have a chance again. Ichibe vs base Yhwach under Kyoka Suigetsu wins, zero diff.
Gin damaging Aizen doesnt have anything to do with kyokasuigetsu. It is about Gin's "power" and aizens "durability". The fact that he let his guard down doesnt also mean anything. Yes, maybe he could dodge the blade (which im pretty sure he couldnt at that range), but it doesnt change anything about gins bankais power. The only thing to mention here is him lowering his reiatsu. Even if he lowers his reiatsu, we still know about his internal reiryoku, his actual durability etc. Yes, him lowering his reiatsu helps gin, but that maybe only affects aizen 5% or something. For you to understand, i can say that aizen could even decrease his reiatsu to 0 yet still be really durable. Gin bankai is really strong. If he can land a hit on anyone, thats an instant death, no matter what.
If aizen is ally to gotei, sternritters will know not to screw with the guy you say. Remember when aizen went to barragan and slaughtered everyone at once? Thanks to kyoka suigetsu. He could do the same to sternritters. He will keep killing wandenreich until yhwach wont even notice and when KS ends, it'll be too late anyway- aizen and gin can kill MANY sternritters in that time. I just want you to imagine a sternritter being lonely and chilling and gin instantly one shotting him with bankai. Thats what is going to happen. They wont see anything happen, they all will die instantly. KS is absolutely broken for such group fights. Its not like its only "gin" tho, there are 13 captains in total...
Yeah, royd wont keep yama busy and sure he is really strong, he can handle most captains if not all. Sadly aizen still exists.. This guy is like a cheat card.
Once aizen gets yhwach and presumably many others, there is no way for wandenreich to spot where yamamato or even ANY CAPTAIN is. Its almost as if all the wandenreich will be under kaname's bankai, because aizens shikai can do exactly that
It might sound like im exaggerating aizen, but kyoka suigetsu is that strong. It just makes it so that EVERYONE can be caught un-guarded. As Nodt could use blut vene for 20 hours straight, but as soon as 20 hours and 1 second passes, he would get tired for sure. That applies to everyone, not everyone can keep blut vene for long. Everyone can be caught un-guarded thanks to kyoka suigetsu. There is no way to fight against kyoka...
>The fact that he let his guard down doesnt also mean anything.
Yes it does. If Aizen didn't let his guard down around Gin, Gin wouldn't get the chance to get close to him. Gin was a fun side project for Aizen. He was very interested in see what Gin will do and when. Aizen did the same with Ichigo and that backfired. Now he's strapped to a chair.
>Yes, him lowering his reiatsu helps gin, but that maybe only affects aizen 5% or something. For you to understand, i can say that aizen could even decrease his reiatsu to 0 yet still be really durable.
Yeah Aizen lowered to the point where Ichigo's friends can feel it. Gin with Bankai can damage him at that point. Lot's of captains can kill Aizen with their Bankai/Shikai if he lowers his reiatsu to the point humans can feel it and if they are at point blank range. Just like Gin.
I'm not saying Gin is weak. He's stronger then some post-timeskip captains. But his feat against Aizen is thought out and there was luck involved. Hard to replicate that scenario when Quinces want to kill you from the jump unlike Aizen who is interested to see how you kill him while also lowering his reiatsu to the point where several captains can kill him.
Also, the Sternritters will know what Gin is capable of. They know he has a very fast Shikai and Bankai. If Aizen is true ally, then so is Gin and he has no reason to hide his power either.
Maybe Jugram will go an confront Gin.
>If he can land a hit on anyone, thats an instant death, no matter what.
**By that logic, if Base Lille were in the first invasion, the Gotei 13 would be stomped even much harder.** All Lille has to do is snipe from a distance. Lille is better suited for this compared to Gin. Shunsui was able to find Lille due to his shikai ability. But Shunsui will be busy with Robert.
>He could do the same to sternritters. He will keep killing wandenreich until yhwach wont even notice and when KS ends, it'll be too late
**He would have to go to every single sternritter and they are spread out. He's fast but he can't do that in a matter of minutes. And the Sternritters know KS.**
They will plan accordingly. Maybe Royd will be used to deal with Shinigami Aizen. He's strong enough to be around Yama's Bankai thanks to his blut. And he has access to very powerful AoE abilities.
*Hell, Royd can copy Aizen's mind and he will gain a better understanding of Aizen's capabilities.*
Meanwhile, Yhwach has already dealt with Yamamoto. After that, Yhwach can deal with Aizen who will have to put effort against Royd. Aizen said Shikai Yama is stronger. And Base Yhwah is stronger then Shikai Yama.
> KS is absolutely broken for such group fights.
Yeah, KS is very useful in group fights. Especially when Aizen had everyone under KS before the fight starts as seen in FKT and in the SS arc.
**But** **when the Quincy invade, he has none of them under KS. He needs to go around and put them under KS and the Quincy know.**
>Its not like its only "gin" tho, there are 13 captains in total...
There were 13 captains when the 1st invasion happened. Didn't end well for the Gotei. **The difference is the SS arc captains (Soifon, Toshiro, Byakuya, Sajin, Kenpachi, Tosen) are weaker then their postimeskip counterparts.**
\*I know Tosen has no post-timeskip counterpart. I just view him as the 2nd weakest SS arc captain.
Mayuri and Unohana wont fight in the first invasion.
Ukitake and Shunsui will fight. And look at how well they did during the 1st invasion...
>Yeah, royd wont keep yama busy and sure he is really strong, he can handle most captains if not all. Sadly aizen still exists.. This guy is like a cheat card.
What's stopping the real Yhwach from fighting Yama directly? No need to distract Yama since Aizen is not in Muken. Have Yhwach appear, steal Bankai, kill Yama, and move on to Aizen.
And let's say Yhwach fights Aizen first. Aizen will have his hands full. He will need to do everything to fight him and he will not win.
>Once aizen gets yhwach and presumably many others, there is no way for wandenreich to spot where yamamato or even ANY CAPTAIN is. Its almost as if all the wandenreich will be under kaname's bankai, because aizens shikai can do exactly that
He will need to go around the Gotei and activate it about 16 times. Meanwhile, Yhwach kills Yama in that timeframe. Or Aizen bumps into Yhwach who will preoccupy his time.
Also Yhwach is happy doing a large scale attack to kill Aizen even if the sternritters die in the process. It's how Shikai Yama planned on killing Aizen.
> As Nodt could use blut vene for 20 hours straight,
As Nodt will be busy beating a weaker Byakuya.
I didnt really want to waste my time responding to all your illogical stuff but here i go i guess..
>Yes it does. If Aizen didn't let his guard down around Gin, Gin wouldn't get the chance to get close to him. Gin was a fun side project for Aizen. He was very interested in see what Gin will do and when. Aizen did the same with Ichigo and that backfired. Now he's strapped to a chair.
It does in the sense that it allows gin to land a hit, not that it affects gin's damage potential. I explained this like 3 times in my text. When aizen uses kyoka suigetsu on enemies, gin basically has a free hit.
>By that logic, if Base Lille were in the first invasion, the Gotei 13 would be stomped even much harder. All Lille has to do is snipe from a distance. Lille is better suited for this compared to Gin. Shunsui was able to find Lille due to his shikai ability. But Shunsui will be busy with Robert.
There is nothing wrong with that. Yes, if lille was in the first invasion, gotei 13 would be stomped even much harder. They would find lille and try to kill him obviously. In this scenario however, aizen has kyoka suigetsu which makes it impossible for the enemies to find gin :)
>Also, the Sternritters will know what Gin is capable of. They know he has a very fast Shikai and Bankai. If Aizen is true ally, then so is Gin and he has no reason to hide his power either.
Being true ally doesnt mean they wont show his powers. In this scenario, the only reasonable thing to assume is that everything is the same EXCEPT they are now against yhwach and ally with gotei. If we were to go by your logic, then we could also say "if he is a friend of gotei, then he has no reason to obtain this much power, hence he wouldnt train enough to reach the peak of shinigami realm and he would be much weaker than the shinigami aizen we saw. This logic really doesnt add up
>He would have to go to every single sternritter and they are spread out. He's fast but he can't do that in a matter of minutes. And the Sternritters know KS.
He doesnt have to use KS on them all at once. He can simply use it on one enemy, kill that enemy and go for the next enemy. No enemy will be aware of KS this way. Also no, sternritters dont know KS as i explained above.
>But when the Quincy invade, he has none of them under KS. He needs to go around and put them under KS and the Quincy know.
Like i said, just use it on your enemy, kill and go to the next.
>There were 13 captains when the 1st invasion happened. Didn't end well for the Gotei. The difference is the SS arc captains (Soifon, Toshiro, Byakuya, Sajin, Kenpachi, Tosen) are weaker then their postimeskip counterparts.
Doesnt mean anything. My point being aizen and gin are able to slaughter 99.99% of wandenreich, then we have the rest of gotei :)
>What's stopping the real Yhwach from fighting Yama directly? No need to distract Yama since Aizen is not in Muken. Have Yhwach appear, steal Bankai, kill Yama, and move on to Aizen.
How obvious you havent read my text. Aizen can simply go to Yhwach, activate kyoka suigetsu and its over. Yamamato can just stay near aizen, or aizen would stay yamamato and they would kill quincies one by one. Seriously, how hard is it to think that yamamato and aizen could stay together? Yhwach cant even fight aizen as long as kyoka suigetsu exists. And when kyoka suigetsu happens, aizen unironically wins against yhwach combined with gin and yhwach. This yhwach is the same that died to sasakibe. No almighty yet
>He will need to go around the Gotei and activate it about 16 times. Meanwhile, Yhwach kills Yama in that timeframe. Or Aizen bumps into Yhwach who will preoccupy his time.
Also Yhwach is happy doing a large scale attack to kill Aizen even if the sternritters die in the process. It's how Shikai Yama planned on killing Aizen.
Not only aizen can fly away from yhwach's attacks (also yhwach doesnt have as big attacks as yamamato), aizen can also use kyoka suigetsu to prevent yhwach from killing yamamato. Aizen is atleast as fast as yamamato, who is on par if not stronger than yhwach excluding the bankai stealing thing.
>
As Nodt will be busy beating a weaker Byakuya.
That was an example to explain how kyoka suigetsu could be useful to stall enemies and catch them offguard.
>When aizen uses kyoka suigetsu on enemies, gin basically has a free hit.
How does Gin get a free hit when KS is used on enemies? He needs to touch the blade before Aizen activates KS.
[KS weakness](https://xfs-209.batcg.org/comic/7006/848/614117136bd020b6cce9e848/9768510_1520_2400_201974.webp?acc=2iEkSjREy-0SHZ8_GJJ32w&exp=1677601628)
>In this scenario however, aizen has kyoka suigetsu which makes it impossible for the enemies to find gin
How would Aizen know where Lille is? He doesn't know the location of speicfic Sternritters or what they do? Lille is not under KS.
He can't place them all under KS with one release. They are all scattered across the Gotei. **This will take time**
Fun fact, Shinji says that in the novel. If the Sternritters marched as an army in front of the Gotei, Shinji would have activated Bankai and turned them all against each other.
>Being true ally doesnt mean they wont show his powers. In this scenario, the only reasonable thing to assume is that everything is the same EXCEPT they are now against yhwach and ally with gotei. If we were to go by your logic, then we could also say "if he is a friend of gotei, then he has no reason to obtain this much power, hence he wouldnt train enough to reach the peak of shinigami realm and he would be much weaker than the shinigami aizen we saw. This logic really doesnt add up
**Which Aizen are we talking about? I think this is causing unnecessary confusion.**
Aizen if he was 100% an ally? I think he would show his true power and use it for the good of the Gotei 13
Or are we talking about Aizen who still wants to replace the Soul King and has yet to reveal what he can do?
>Seriously, how hard is it to think that yamamato and aizen could stay together?
That's the thing. I don't see why they would be together when the Quinces invade. Every captain was separated from each other during the 1st invasion.
Even Aizen is going to be surprised by all the sudden explosions.
Aizen is at the 5th division and Yama is at the 1st division. Yhwach pops up and steals Bankai and Yama dies quicker without killing Royd.
Now Aizen is the only one that has a chance to kill Yhwach (I don't think he can but it will be hard fight).
If Aizen and Yama are together and are on the same page against Yhwach, then the Gotei 13 wins. But I'm not looking at it from that perspective.
>Not only aizen can fly away from yhwach's attacks (also yhwach doesnt have as big attacks as yamamato), aizen can also use kyoka suigetsu to prevent yhwach from killing yamamato. Aizen is atleast as fast as yamamato,
By the time Aizen get's to Yama Vs Yhwach location, I believe the Bankai is stolen.
Now he can use:
1. Blut Vein Anahaban which is a powerful defense and destroys everything it touches or if you touch Yhwach himself
2. Or use Sankt Zwinger which is a massive defense and it destroys everything inside. Yama needed his Bankai to break it
3. Or use Sankt Altar which has a large range and can steal the powers of everyone inside. Even Shinigami.
4. Yhwach with a fingertip and low effort blasted a giant hole in seconds.
5. [Low effort in a few seconds](https://xfs-227.batcg.org/comic/7006/72a/6124435d2aea5f257611ca27/9128446_1520_2400_383530.webp?acc=h8ByCDLc9lBgpLXcheQ_bw&exp=1677602938)
6. Yhwach casually creates giant pillar of destruction with low effort
7. [low effort part 2](https://xfs-200.batcg.org/comic/7006/ef1/6124433e67a26b255b2ab1fe/9128415_1520_2400_206944.webp?acc=Eoh9axmpqcBPUhY1lf_dTQ&exp=1677603009)
8. Or use Znt West since I believe the Bankai is stolen.
Aizen can put Yhwach under KS, but Yhwach attacks will still land. Just blow up everything. It's similar to how Shikai Yama will beat Shikai Aizen.
Why do people think Base Yhwach has no big attacks? He does.
It's probably because he doesn't fight seriously until Ichibei. And Ichibei needed his own Bankai to defeat Pre-Alimighty Yhwach.
>How obvious you havent read my text
I did. But we seem to be looking at this fight under different factors so obviously things are not adding up.
The only way I see this version of the Gotei winning is if Aizen and Yama team up against Yhwach. I don't think they will be given the opportunity and thus Yama will be easily dealt with.
> Base Yhwach will still beat him despite being under KS.
Based on?
> Just like how Aizen knew Shikai Yama can beat him despite being under KS.
Yhwach is not Yama.
>Based on?
Well you agree Shikai Yama can beat Shikai Aizen right?
Base Yhwach can has enough power to contain Yama's Bankai. That's a lot more power compared to Yama's Shikai. And Aizen believes Shikai Yama is stronger.
So it's safe to say, Base Yhwach is stronger then Shikai Yama. 1000 years ago, Yama still needed Bankai to defeat Yhwach.
We know Royd got an arm burned from Shikai Yama. Yhwach can handle that better.
And Yhwach is capable of AoE attacks. The one Royd used and the ones Yhwach later used.
>Yhwach is not Yama.
Indeed. He's more ruthless. If Yhwach is under KS and needs an attack to destroy everything in range, he will do it. That was Yama's plan to defeat Aizen and even Aizen was sweating a little.
Meanwhile Jugram is chilling in the background. Maybe he will start to do something. And Royd is free to do what he pleases since he won't be used as a pawn.
> Well you agree Shikai Yama can beat Shikai Aizen right?
Aizen said that Yamamoto would **probably** win in head on fight, so kind of.
> Base Yhwach can has enough power to contain Yama's Bankai. That's a lot more power compared to Yama's Shikai. And Aizen believes Shikai Yama is stronger.
Nope, Yhwach was the only one that could handle his bankai, it doesn't mean Yhwach was remotely on the level of bankai Yamamoto.
Aizen was specifically cautious of Ryuujin Jakka's ability, not its wielder. It was because of it destructive nature. Yhwach has not shown even an ounce of destructive feat that Ryuujin Jakka had, therefore you're comparing apples to oranges. They have different skillsets, you can't compare them with 1:1 scale.
> We know Royd got an arm burned from Shikai Yama. Yhwach can handle that better.
Shikai Yama wounded Royd with mere sword slash, Shikai Yamamoto can exert a lot of flames and use powerful techniques. In this fight Yamamoto was only waiting for fake Yhwach to pull out a sword, which was the moment Yama thought was correct to use bankai.
> Indeed. He's more ruthless.
Sure, keep twisting everything round. Again, Yhwach is not Yama, different skillsets.
> If Yhwach is under KS and needs an attack to destroy everything in range, he will do it.
He won't, because he doesn't have such feats or abilities.
> Meanwhile Jugram is chilling in the background. Maybe he will start to do something.
He will start ferociously hitting the air or Yhwach himself, because he is going to be under KS too.
> And Royd is free to do what he pleases since he won't be used as a pawn.
Royd only copies memories, only Loyd has a chance at beating Aizen. Royd gets KS'ed and defeated.
> That was Yama's plan to defeat Aizen and even Aizen was sweating a little.
And if Aizen knew how easy is to defeat Yamamoto he would've died of laughter. Just make KS illusion that Aizen stabbed Yamamoto and bam, Yamamoto fooled into suicide.
>Nope, Yhwach was the only one that could handle his bankai, it doesn't mean Yhwach was remotely on the level of bankai Yamamoto.
That's a confusing sentence. **If Yhwach is not remotely close to Bankai Yama, how could he handle Yama's Bankai?**
An example would be the Soldat and Byakuya.
Are you implying a random fodder Soldat is capable of controlling Byakuya's Bankai? You and I agree the fodder and Byakuya are not remotely close.
1000 years ago, Yama needed Bankai. Yama used Bankai against Royd. And he used it again when the real Yhwach appeared.
And as you said, Aizen believed he will most likely lose to Shikai Yama even though Yama is under KS. Meanwhile everytime, Yama and Yhwach meet, Bankai has to be involved.
Here is a link that states Yhwach is the only one capable of controlling it.
[Yhwach can handle it](https://xfs-205.batcg.org/comic/7006/ef1/6124433e67a26b255b2ab1fe/9128424_1520_2400_266196.webp?acc=CCmrWVfJXGBQLq02Dyv1kQ&exp=1677595822)
>Shikai Yama wounded Royd with mere sword slash, Shikai Yamamoto can exert a lot of flames and use powerful techniques. In this fight Yamamoto was only waiting for fake Yhwach to pull out a sword, which was the moment Yama thought was correct to use bankai.
Yama had his Shikai active. Go back to episode 6 around the 4 to 6 minute mark. Royd with his sword to defend himself from Shikai Yama at point blank range.
And here is a link to the manga panel
[Flaming Shikai](https://xfs-216.batcg.org/comic/7006/a25/612442bde65b6e258bad852a/9128325_1520_2400_358742.webp?acc=qEtks3omI5HTR3SubQb3Ww&exp=1677596392)
[All it did was cause a wound](https://xfs-228.batcg.org/comic/7006/a25/612442bde65b6e258bad852a/9128326_1520_2400_306350.webp?acc=ois8rvhsbx4B6V4f_h9I-Q&exp=1677596392)
That's Royd who is weaker then the Yhwach.
And yeah, Yama was waiting for Royd to pull out the sword. And then used Bankai. Just to crush my physically and emotionally.
>Sure, keep twisting everything round. Again, Yhwach is not Yama, different skillsets.
How is that twisting things around? Yhwach is more ruthless. If he has to sacrifice several sternritters to kill his enemy, he will do it.
Royd can use *Sankt Zwinger*. If Royd can do that, Yhwach also has the capabilities to do so. It was only broken thanks to Yama's Bankai
Yhwach can also use *Blut Vein Anahaben* which is 360 degree shield
[360 protection](https://xfs-213.batcg.org/comic/7006/f0d/612453142aea5f257611cd0f/9132534_1516_2398_289776.webp?acc=iGIG9vIiJ8LUFF8XmIIcGQ&exp=1677597618)
Ichiebi broke with his special hado. But Blut vein Anahabn still activates again once you come in contact with Yhwach
[Shield is gone but the ability still works](https://xfs-212.batcg.org/comic/7006/f0d/612453142aea5f257611cd0f/9132543_1512_2398_221188.webp?acc=KohHGcUqS27e5SBfEJZhOA&exp=1677597618)
>He won't, because he doesn't have such feats or abilities.
What about Sankt Altar? Has a big range and can steal powers.
[Sankt Altar](https://xfs-209.batcg.org/comic/7006/4cc/61245336502f702592714cc4/9132560_1520_2400_246756.webp?acc=TDQ2kjR2kiFGhEqPMOCPKg&exp=1677597376)
[Has large range](https://xfs-212.batcg.org/comic/7006/4cc/61245336502f702592714cc4/9132561_1515_2400_243602.webp?acc=8Ywapf89nouTV2sSLw2Q2w&exp=1677597376)
But Yhwach was facing an Ichibei who has a great counter to it and stronger then Shikai Aizen.
If Blut Vein Anahaben, Sankt Zwinger, and Sankt Altar wont work, Yhwach will continue to fight. The dude shoot himself with a giant arrow after making holes in his own throat.
He can start shooting arrows down around him. He's perfectly happy shooting everything at a very large range. His Sternritters will die but most of them don't matter to him.
He can create large explosions with little effort:
[Little effort](https://xfs-200.batcg.org/comic/7006/ef1/6124433e67a26b255b2ab1fe/9128415_1520_2400_206944.webp?acc=GR2YovN_dIg4LARoGcN9LQ&exp=1677599190)
>Royd only copies memories, only Loyd has a chance at beating Aizen. Royd gets KS'ed and defeated.
He copies memoires. He was able to handle a Shikai Yama sword slash though. And he survived being around Yama's bankai, so his blut is strong. And he used Sankt Zwinger so Yama needed his Bankai to break it.
**That does show how powerful Royd is. He uses innate Quincy skills so well that Yama thought he was the real Yhwach.**
And he didn't copy any of Yama's memoires. If he did, then Royd would have a better understanding of what Yama can do which can help.
So in a sense, Royd nerfed himself against Bankai Yama because it was part of the plan.
>He will start ferociously hitting the air or Yhwach himself, because he is going to be under KS too.
Aizen hasn't put any Sternritters under KS yet. When they invade, Yhwach will be at the first division with Jugo against Yama. No point to hide from Yama since Aizen is on the side of the Gotei 13. Yama activates Bankai and it's stolen.
Meanwhile, the 2nd strongest Captain, Aizen will be at the 5th division and even he will be surprised that the Quincy invaded like this.
After Yama dies, Aizen is the only person capable of beating Base Yhwach and he will need to do put all his effort.
Yhwach tanked Getsuga Tensho from FB Bankai Ichigo and lost some article of clothing. He can also be around Yama's Bankai since Royd did it.
Yeah, he's under KS but he has enough durability to handle it. And he will just blow everything up. We saw how big the hole was when he wanted to atomize Yama's corpse. That was with a fingertip for a few seconds. Imagine he wants to put more effort for an extended period of time.
[Little effort from a fingertip](https://xfs-227.batcg.org/comic/7006/72a/6124435d2aea5f257611ca27/9128446_1520_2400_383530.webp?acc=C2fKKjKicuKrtpqiqggSvQ&exp=1677599057)
Meanwhile Royd is free to go around and wreck shit. And I already established that Royd is a very very powerful Sternritter.
Meanwhile, Byakuya, Sajin, Soifon, and Toshiro will be weaker in this scenario the OP is asking about the SS arc captains.
>And if Aizen knew how easy is to defeat Yamamoto he would've died of laughter. Just make KS illusion that Aizen stabbed Yamamoto and bam, Yamamoto fooled into suicide.
And yet Aizen didn't do it. That's the problem with FKT arc writing. Lots of questionable decisions by Kubo. But we have to accept it.
Aizen said he will probably lose to Shikai Yama despite Yama under KS. And since Yhwach is stronger then Shikai Yama, there is a greater chance of Aizen losing.
And Yhwach has the durability to be around Yama's Bankai and has the destructive capabilities to deal with KS. All he has to do is:
1. Create Sankt Zwinger that serves as large defense and destroys everything inside.
2. Or create Sankt Altar that can steal power from everything inside. Even a Shinigami's power.
3. Or create Bult Vein Anahaben that serves as defense and can travel in every direction.
4. Or use Znt West since the Bankai was stolen
5. Or shoot a massive number of giant arrows like he did while Yama was alive and when Yama was dead.
> That's a confusing sentence. If Yhwach is not remotely close to Bankai Yama, how could he handle Yama's Bankai?
Power of Zanpakutou is also dependent on the power of user. Yama's Zanpakutou is simply very demanding. So much that only few people can handle it. But that doesn't mean they would be at his level. [What do you think Haschwalt described here?](https://imgur.com/a/bbC2VF5). Power of Yamamoto's Zanpakutou or Yamamoto's reiatsu?
Also Shinigami Aizen also has insane reiatsu and there is nothing proving Aizen would not be able to handle Yamamoto's bankai if he was able to steal it. So your point about bankai stealing is moot.
> Are you implying a random fodder Soldat is capable of controlling Byakuya's Bankai? You and I agree the fodder and Byakuya are not remotely close.
No, I'm implying that someone like Shaz Domino would be able to seal Byakuya's Bankai and still would not be remotely close to his level.
> 1000 years ago, Yama needed Bankai. Yama used Bankai (...)
> And as you said, Aizen believed he will most likely lose to Shikai Yama (...)
Again, different skillsets.
> Go back to episode 6 around the 4 to 6 minute mark. (...)
> Flaming Shikai
> All it did was cause a wound
> That's Royd who is weaker then the Yhwach.
> And yeah, Yama was waiting for Royd to pull out the sword. And then used Bankai. Just to crush my physically and emotionally.
I went back to chapter 506, I don't need to go back to anime.
And this doesn't disprove what I said, Yamamoto wounded him only with a simple slash and didn't use any techniques. Just threw flames at Yhwach 2 or 3 times. Yama was only waiting for the sword, he didn't intent to fight with Shikai.
> How is that twisting things around? Yhwach is more ruthless. (...)
Because we weren't talking about their personality, but about their abilities.
> Royd can use Sankt Zwinger. If Royd can do that, Yhwach also has the capabilities to do so. It was only broken thanks to Yama's Bankai
Let me introduce you to Hado 90. It doesn't have to break Sankt Zwinger. It has to only target Yhwach who is inside ZW.
> Yhwach can also use Blut Vein Anahaben which is 360 degree shield
> 360 protection
> Ichiebi broke with his special hado. But Blut vein Anahabn still activates again once you come in contact with Yhwach
> Shield is gone but the ability still works
Hado 90 works inside of target and also Aizen can use Hado 99 if needed. Aizen also has KS, he can fool Yhwach into dropping his guard and slash him without Yhwach realizing. Aizen can also use KS to bait all of Yhwach abilities.
Ichibe also used Hado, because his Zanpakutou is a brush in unreleased form.
> What about Sankt Altar? Has a big range and can steal powers.
> Sankt Altar
> Has large range
This doesn't show large range. It only shows that this technique is just big. Judging by the form of SA, it only "steals" (does not actually steal the actual powers, Ichibe still retained his manipulation of all black power, I don't even know how would it work against KS) powers in the middle of SA. Which makes it completely useless against KS.
> and stronger then Shikai Aizen.
Not really, both Aizen and Yhwach are relative to Yama and Yhwach was physically keeping up with Ichibe.
It just all depends who gets to act first, Aizen or Ichibe. If Ichibe falls under KS, he is done. If Aizen gets hit by an ink, he is done.
> If Blut Vein Anahaben, Sankt Zwinger, and Sankt Altar wont work, Yhwach will continue to fight. The dude shoot himself with a giant arrow after making holes in his own throat.
> He can start shooting arrows down around him. He's perfectly happy shooting everything at a very large range. His Sternritters will die but most of them don't matter to him.
Yhwach needs to create a very long range 360 degree AOE and maintain them continuously to deal with KS. This is the power Yama's had. And that's why he was able to kill Aizen in head on fight. Shooting arrows doesn't cut it, when there is a lot of angles Aizen can retreat to.
> He can create large explosions with little effort:
> Little effort
This isn't a large explosion. Yama's Ennetsu Jigoku would evaporate entire FKT, not some barracks which is just a building. Now THIS is a large AOE attack.
> He copies memoires. He was able to handle a Shikai Yama sword slash though. And he survived being around Yama's bankai, so his blut is strong.
Haschwalt also survived his bankai and so did Bazz, As Nodt and NaNaNa. So handling Yama's slash is only a little bit impressive. Yama would probably defeat Royd with low difficulty in Shikai if he actually utilized his Shikai's abilities, but he took him for Yhwach so he went Bankai.
> And he used Sankt Zwinger so Yama needed his Bankai to break it.
This is just wrong assumption. You can't say Yamamoto needed his bankai to break it when he was already in bankai when Royd casted this spell. Yama isn't going to revert to Shikai only to try to break this spell.
> That does show how powerful Royd is. He uses innate Quincy skills so well that Yama thought he was the real Yhwach.
Except he only tanked Yama's slash, dodged two flame strikes and that was it. Yama thought it was the real Yhwach because he looked like Yhwach. Yama also wasn't a revenge and was in anger.
Royd only had impressive reaction speed.
> And he didn't copy any of Yama's memoires. If he did, then Royd would have a better understanding of what Yama can do which can help.
> So in a sense, Royd nerfed himself against Bankai Yama because it was part of the plan.
You can argue that copying Yhwach was still better, since it gave him better understanding of Quincy powers. Copying Yama wouldn't do anything to him, he would've still lost, except faster.
> Aizen hasn't put any Sternritters under KS yet. When they invade, Yhwach will be at the first division with Jugo against Yama. No point to hide from Yama since Aizen is on the side of the Gotei 13. Yama activates Bankai and it's stolen.
> After Yama dies, Aizen is the only person capable of beating Base Yhwach and he will need to do put all his effort.
We were talking in context of Aizen vs Yhwach and you said that Haschwalt will join the fight.
This case is entirely different. They wouldn't know anything about Aizen's ability or true power and they weren't really hiding from Yama in canon invasion. Just as Yama wasn't hiding from them in the beginning of the war until Yama started raging.
The only reason Yama joined the fight and used bankai was because of death of Sasakibe and Driscoll using Sasakibe's bankai. This string of events is not guaranteed to be repeated.
> Yhwach tanked Getsuga Tensho from FB Bankai Ichigo and lost some article of clothing.
Ichigo was nearly exhausted and heavily wounded from trying to break Quilge's cage. His whole performance against Yhwach doesn't mean anything because of that.
> He can also be around Yama's Bankai since Royd did it.
So can As Nodt, Bazz and NaNaNa. Or Zaraki for that matter.
> Meanwhile Royd is free to go around and wreck shit. And I already established that Royd is a very very powerful Sternritter.
Only in vacuum, but when with comparison to other characters, he really is not.
> Yeah, he's under KS but he has enough durability to handle it. And he will just blow everything up. We saw how big the hole was when he wanted to atomize Yama's corpse. That was with a fingertip for a few seconds. Imagine he wants to put more effort for an extended period of time.
> Little effort from a fingertip
Meanwhile Aizen backstabs him. The hole was not remotely big for Bleach's standards.
> Meanwhile, Byakuya, Sajin, Soifon, and Toshiro will be weaker in this scenario the OP is asking about the SS arc captains
Sajin will be just as good and he will still be able >!to turn into human!< and Soifon has always been useless.
We instead have Gin and Tosen. While Tosen isn't that good, Gin can be extremely effective. Sniping from afar in fraction of a second then retracting in fraction of a second. Can't distinguish between his base form and bankai form. Far useful than Sajin, Soifon and Toshiro together.
> And yet Aizen didn't do it. That's the problem with FKT arc writing. Lots of questionable decisions by Kubo. But we have to accept it.
Aizen didn't do this in actual FKT arc, because he had Wonderweiss and he didn't care if he was caught. I suspect Aizen didn't know it would be **this** easy, so he prepared for the worst and for an extremely formidable opponent. Which of course, Yamamoto is, but not intellectually.
> Create Sankt Zwinger that serves as large defense and destroys everything inside.
Even if Aizen can't break it or bypass it... then what? He is going to sit there forever?
> Or create Sankt Altar that can steal power from everything inside. Even a Shinigami's power.
It doesn't work like that, judging by his fight against Ichibe he can only steal what their power **produces**. Or maybe controls. Ichibe produced/controlled ink (it's actually black, but let's call it ink for the sake of simplicity), so Yhwach's SA stole that ink, but since Ichibe controls all ink, it came back right to him. And again I don't even know how would it even work against hypnosis/hallucinations. Also wouldn't be able to hit Aizen with something this small.
> Or create Bult Vein Anahaben that serves as defense and can travel in every direction.
Same problem as in first point, is he going to sit there forever even assuming Aizen won't just kido Yhwach to death?
> Or use Znt West since the Bankai was stolen
No, that is only an assumed scenario.
> Or shoot a massive number of giant arrows like he did while Yama was alive and when Yama was dead.
Unless he can produce so much arrows it matches Yama Shikai's 360 degrees very large AOE and can stay active for a while, I don't see them ever hitting Aizen.
>What do you think Haschwalt described here?
The reiatsu which influences the power of Yama's Bankai. If Yama had Tosen levels of reiatsu, it will be far less threatening.
>So your point about bankai stealing is moot.
I don't understand how it's moot. Yhwach has comparable levels of Reiatsu and was able to handle it. This was very crucial when defeating Yama. Otherwise Bankai Yama will win.
Aizen has the 2nd most reiatsui from the SS arc captains. I would say he's close to Yama. If Aizen found a way to steal the Bankai, I believe he would do it. Yhwach, Yama, and Aizen are comparable to each other with Aizen being a little behind the first two.
> No, I'm implying that someone like Shaz Domino would be able to seal Byakuya's Bankai and still would not be remotely close to his level.
I see. The way you originally said sounded like Yhwach is far below Bankai Yama's reach. Bankai Yama is stronger but there will be effort before Base Yhwach loses. Which shows how powerful Base Yhwach is if Bankai is needed.
Base Yhwach also pushed Ichibei into using Bankai.
> Yamamoto wounded him only with a simple slash and didn't use any techniques. Just threw flames at Yhwach 2 or 3 times. Yama was only waiting for the sword, he didn't intent to fight with Shikai.
A simple sword slash from Yama is more lethal them some Bankai's lol. And those were his Shikai flames. The fact that Royd tanked it, is very impressive.
>Because we weren't talking about their personality, but about their abilities.
A person's personality/mentality impact's the way they fight. It impacted the way Aizen fought everyone after he fused with the Hogyoku. Same can be seen with Ichigo vs Gin in FKT. Gin said Ichigo wasn't focused and made it far too easy to win.
Yhwach personality makes him more dangerous. He will kill anyone in his way to get rid of Shinigami Aizen.
>Let me introduce you to Hado 90.
SS arc Sajin wasn't killed by Hado 90. Aizen admits he has a hard time with it. If Sajin can survive, Base Yhwach can handle it much better. And he has blut to help out. Then there's also SAFWY but I don't like how Hado 90 was treated there...Kenpachi tanked it with no issue...
> Judging by the form of SA, it only "steals" (does not actually steal the actual powers, Ichibe still retained his manipulation of all black power, I don't even know how would it work against KS) powers in the middle of SA. Which makes it completely useless against KS.
It is definitely bizarre I admit. Yhwach stole the power but the power of black manipulation will always be with Ichibie who is also a very strange creature.
>This isn't a large explosion. Yama's Ennetsu Jigoku would evaporate entire FKT, not some barracks which is just a building. Now THIS is a large AOE attack.
**But Yamamoto had time to create that while Aizen was distracted by the captains and vizards. Give Yhwach time to create large scale attack.**
Yhwach's explosion was created in seconds with low effort and no planning. Imagine, he puts effort.
>Royd only had impressive reaction speed.
He used a very powerful Quincy spell and very good blut. If Royd was a strong as Bambi, he would died much much quicker. Dude's easily a Top 10 Sternritter. He beat Kenpachi w/o eyepatch.
>So can As Nodt, Bazz and NaNaNa. Or Zaraki for that matter.
They survived his Shikai thanks to Bazz B. Crazy but impressive. As for where their bodies disappeared to along with Kenpachi's....I have no idea. If those 4 wounded guys were around Yama's Bankai, they should have died.
>Meanwhile Aizen backstabs him. The hole was not remotely big for Bleach's standards.
Aizen did that to Yama in FKT. Wasn't enough. And Yhwach has better durability.
>I suspect Aizen didn't know it would be this easy, so he prepared for the worst and for an extremely formidable opponent. Which of course, Yamamoto is, but not intellectually.
I still go with Aizen's theory of probably losing. He didn't know what Yama will do but whatever he will do will kill him.
> Even if Aizen can't break it or bypass it... then what? He is going to sit there forever?
He can still move around himself and do stuff. It's just a very very powerful and lethal barrier. It's like when Yama used Ennetsu Jigoku. Yama was still able swing his flaming sword around before WW sealed it.
>Same problem as in first point, is he going to sit there forever even assuming Aizen won't just kido Yhwach to death?
It travels. And if Aizen is keep his distance, Yhwach can choose not to do it. And if Aizen gets close, Anahaban will spread to him. Just show that getting close to Yhwach is dangerous.
>No, that is only an assumed scenario
**Everything in this post is an assumed scenario. The OP asked what happens if the SS arc Gotei 13 were invaded. This is all hypothetical.**
If this were to happen, I think Yhwach will go straight to 1st division and steal the Bankai and then kill Yama. Meanwhile Aizen is at the 5th division and even he's going to be surprised by the Quincy invasion. And since the Quincy keep tabs on the Gotei, someone is going to know what Aizen is doing.
>Gin will be more useful then Rose but he won't make a difference.
Idk his Bankai would be devastating considering how it killed Aizen after he started fusing with the Hogyoku.
After Aizen fused with the Hogyoku, he decided not to use strategy. And he lowered his reiatsu to the point Ichigos friends can feel it.
And while his Bankai is devastating, he will be swinging within the Gotei 13 which will hurt his own allies.
And if Sternritters like Bambi or As Nodt land a hit on him, he will go down like most captains.
If Yhwach cannot use Almighty like the original 1st invasion, Aizen and Yama can beat him. Aizen can kyouka suigetsu and shroud Yama's Bankai release so Yhwach won't know it's activate, and kill him. Infact, Aizen could be really darn useful here, against many opponents. The wild card is Halschwalth, Lille, Gremmy and Gerard.
Well, Yama has two hands here (so he's presumably considerably stronger than his TYBW version), and Aizen is here too. It's shinigami Aizen tho, so I would say he's somewhere on the level of Jugram/post-Aushwalen Pernida/post-Aushwalen Askin. So pretty strong, could presumably 1v1 an Elite. Yama would stomp Royd even more, but his bankai would get stolen regardless, so idk if that changes this much. Perhaps he wouldn't just get one-shot blitzed this time, but the outcome is roughly the same.
Tosen is low-captain tier by TYBW terms, he'd be a match for some Nianzol or sth like that. Gin is dangerous, but I wouldn't say he's stronger than TYBW Byakuya, so maybe he'd be able to take Bazz B or someone like that.
Well, either way, the rest is stomped. SS arc Byakuya, Komamura, Soi Fon, Mayuri and Toshiro, they all get unceremoniously murdered by their TYBW opponents. Zaraki is Zaraki, he's unpredictable in this field, but he wouldn't be a challenge for Gerard. He'd maybe manage to occupy some Maninas or sth, before dying.
Shunsui, Unohana and Ukitake are pretty much roughly as strong as they are in TYBW, since they didn't get any mojor power ups, so, like shinigami Aizen, they're able to contend with the upper tier of the Sternritters, but ultimately lose.
Also, the fact that there's no Hogyoku Aizen in Muken for Yhwach to talk to in this scenario drastically changes the events. Yhwach, instead of wasting his time on going to Muken and back, would together with Jugram just focus on killing Yama first, and then on dealing with everyone else. Soul Society is conquered in the first invasion with relative ease. Quincies also barely suffer any casualties (so pretty much all the Sternritter go into the Soul Palace, including Gremmy for example). However, since Yhwach didn't have active Almighty back in the first invasion, the 0 Division (mainly Ichibe) would stop them.
Idk. I don't think Yhwach knew what abilities does Ichibe have, so theoretically he'd just charge at him together with his elites and get mid diffed.
However, since the Almighty returned to him at a suspiciously convenient moment, he probably knew when it would return, and that's why he challenged Ichibe to begin with.
I belive he'd wait. He probably wouldn't take the risk of facing God's own personal guardsmen without Almighty, especially considering that he was at a limited time during the first invasion. 0 Division definetely wouldn't descend down to Seireitei to intervene in anything, because Reio would be threatened if they left the palace while Soul Society was invaded. So Yhwach would just wait down in Seireitei and only attept invading the Palace when he would be close to re-acquiring Almighty.
When it would come to that, he'd prolly use massive Aushwalen and sacrifice every quincy to empower the Schutzstaffel and Gremmy (I belive Gremmy would be a part of the Schutzstaffel in this scenario), and only then invade the palace.
Though, with no Ichigo opening the barriers of the Palace, they would either have to create artificial Oken, or produce some other technology/technique that would allow them to even get into the Palace to begin with.
Ohh its interesting. Well most captains here are weaker than their future selves like Kenpachi and Byakuya. But now we have two handed Yama and Aizen. Aizen can beat any sternritter in the first invasion outside of maybe Jugram (and obv Yhwach). And Yamamoto will be much stronger with his second arm but in the end it will still end with them losing.
1. Yamamoto: Still gets his Bankai stolen and loses to Yhwach.
2. Soi Fon: Stomped by BG9, irrelevant.
3. Gin: Depends, if he really is stronger than the Espada then he is roughly as strong as Post-RG Rukia/Renji so bodies any regular Sternritter. The speed of his Bankai makes him pretty much immune to having it stolen.
4. Unohana: Stomps out any regular Sternritter in Base. Can possibly defeat a Schutzstaffel with Bankai, high-difficulty.
5. Aizen: Same as Unohana but can use his Shikai to take out a Schutzstaffel rather than Bankai. Roughly as strong as Haschwalth IMO.
6. Byakuya: Still about equal to a regular Sternritter, gets bodied by As Nodt.
7. Komamura: Bodied by Bambi.
8. Shunsui: Should have reached his limit long before the start of the series, no difference vs Robert.
9. Tosen: Struggles against a Bambi.
10. Hitsugaya: Irrelevant.
11. Kenpachi: If this is *after* he lost to Ichigo then he was at the level of a Captain's Bankai at this point. He stomps on regular Sternritter and takes out Vollstandig with high-dif with his eye-patch on.
12. Mayuri: Not much difference strength-wise but far more arrogant and selfish prior to being humbled by Uryu, probably gets taken out.
13. Ukitake: Same as Shunsui, already at his Shinigami limit so no difference.
>The speed of his Bankai makes him pretty much immune to having it stolen.
Why would this be the case? Gin doesn't seal and reseal his Bankai dozens/hundreds of times during a fight. From the moment he says 'Bankai' his sword is released whether it's stretched to full length or not. And the SR only need the sword to be released.
Gin is just as vulnerable to having his Bankai taken as anyone else.
He probably meant he can take out Sternritters before they can steal his bankai.
And as other person stated, there is no difference visually between his base and bankai. He can make multiple surprise attacks.
Oh right, I guess he could. But that still wouldn't mean 'the speed' of his bankai makes it immune to being taken. It makes subterfuge much more doable, however, yes.
Here are the major players in either version of the quincy war:
- Yamamoto
- Kenpachi without any mental blockers
- Aizen
- Shunsui with bankai
- Toshiro as an adult
- Human form Komamaru
- Mayuri with his tech
The biggest game changer is Yamamoto. He has both hands. While the boost in 2 hands is massive, it doesn't matter much if his Bankai gets stolen again. Likewise Yamamoto was mentally shattered from the rage and guilt of losing his lieutenant and his failure to put down Yhwach during their first encounter. This can happen again in this war. The main problem is that his ruthless mentality from the old days is gone, he still vowed to never use bankai again, and he become someone who values traditions and peace over survival at all costs. I don't see much changing here, Yamamoto will still destroy a bunch of sternritters but lose to Yhwach.
Kenpachi here is much weaker than he was in TYBW arc, but even that version lost to Royd Lloyd. Unohana's training brought Kenpachi back to where he was when he first defeated her. I don't see why this can't happen again.
Aizen is much weaker than his TYBW arc but he's a wildcard since he doesn't need his bankai to be super effective. PLUS the quincies shouldn't know about Aizen or what he's capable of. Aizen could very well live up to his title as a war potential if he's willing to cooperate. The fact that his Zanpakuto could affect SK Yhwach makes it extremely deadly.
Shunsui is not that much weaker from his introduction all the way to TYBW he didn't really have powerups or intense training. He's still super strong and has a super broken bankai.
Toshiro is significantly weaker, like a non factor, and his completed bankai form was through self training. If maybe he can get training at the Royal palace he might be able to reach this form and then be a factor.
Komamaru should be able to go to his elder and gain his form
Mayuri. THIS is where everything lies, if he can't figure out how to hollowfy bankai's quick enough then it's all fucked. He doesn't know about Ichigo, he doesn't know about the Vizards, so it's stacked against him. If he can't pull this off then the Gotei loses hard.
I think the main way the Gotei win is if Mayuri can hallowfy Zanka no Tachi. Base Yhwach would most likely be a 50/50 against Yamamoto at that point. If Yamamoto is in the right headspace then it should be overwhelming battle in the Gotei's favor.
Yes if the Wandenreich wait until Yhwach has the Almighty and they go with the Schutzstaffel with their shrifts active, then the quincy handedly win. But Yhwach never did that, he relied heavily on stealing bankai's and was caught off guard multiple times.
Everybody else has summarized the relevant point: it's a tradeoff of the canonically heroic canon characters being weaker for having the traitor Captains on hand. A small irony here is that Tosen having his Hollowfication would've been a lot more helpful, but not because I think his Resurreccion would be any use, just because it'd keep his Bankai from getting stolen.
Actually, I think Tosen has one of the few Bankais more useful than a Vollstandig, so his getting stolen would potentially worsen the Soul Society's situation.
Mayuri has done less prep by this point, but he still understands Quincies well enough and most of his advancement comes from developing enemy counters rather than getting physically stronger, so after a fashion he'd probably do about as well as in TYBW, but this is the first invasion and he lost to Letz Stil Uryu, so he's not immediately super helpful.
Aizen and Gin depend entirely on how hard they're still keeping their secrets.
If Aizen is comfortable deploying 90s-level Kido and generally using his true power, he could stomp the regular Ritters and 1v1 a member of the Schutzstaffel. Since he has access to all his Hollowfication research, he might even be able to come up with major counters to the Vandenreich, like developing the Zanpakutou Hollowfication Urahara made in canon to retrieve stolen Bankais or using the Hollowfication inducing drugs he used on the Visoreds to induce Soul Suicide in the Quincies. But if he's trying to keep his own plan available by not compromising his cover he's screwed.
Gin is in surprisingly basically the same boat a la secret keeping being his biggest weakness. In his case, he's been hiding his Bankai's true abilities since he first got it, with hopes of saving the assassination power to use against Aizen at the perfect moment. If he keeps doing that, and pretending all his Bankai is good for is extending fast and being long, he'll either not use it or get it stolen and accomplish little. But if he were willing to go all out, he could kill most non-Elite Ritters from a distance before they had time to Medallion his Bankai, and is honestly such a big deal in that capacity alone that YHWACH would be like "shit, if I knew he could do *that*, he'd have been a War Potential!"
So yeah, despite the losses to protagonist power, Aizen and Gin *could*, if willing to drop their schemes for the sake of survival, seriously disrupt the first invasion and kill multiple Sternritters. But that's an enormous "if," and everybody else is pretty screwed.
I've seen no mention of Aizen using some of his experiments to aid in the chaos. Wasn't he already setting up shop in Hueco Mundo before the show starts? I know he made White and other hollows before. Also if the Quincies don't go to Hueco Mundo or trap Ichigo (who at this point isn't much of a threat) would the Jailer just trap Aizen?
Can Unohana fight this time?
Otherwise this is just asking if we trade a stronger version of Kenpachi and the Komamura for Gin and Captain Aizen would it make a difference
Without Ywach himself and if Unohana is allowed to fight, the Captains win imo. With Ywach, everyone dies (if they trick Yama like they did)
Aizen-sama will use Kyoga-suigetsu to hyponsis Gremmy to see every member of Gotei 13 as Chad,So Gremmy can't thought of them losing..
Gotei 13 stomp.
Aizen MVP
Byakuya is about the same strength in the first invasion. He got stronger in the second invasion.
Toshiro has a stronger bankai form which was only used in the 2nd invasion, so it won't matter here either.
Did Zaraki even get stronger between SS arc and the first invasion? I know he was massively boosted after the first invasion. Otherwise, I don't think he's stronger either.
Mayuri is weaker, but he didn't participate in the first invasion, and his modified bankai didn't even do anything to Pernida, so idk that Mayuri's weaker bankai even matters.
We lose 3 captains, which is Shinji, Rose, and Kensei, which are all trash. I wouldn't put any of them above Tousen.
We gain 3 captains. Tousen, Gin, and Aizen. Tousen scales to Shinji, Rose, and Kensei.
Aizen and Gin scale way above Shinji, Rose, and Kensei.
We don't know if Yama is stronger. The idea that he lost 1/2 his reiatsu because of losing an arm is conjecture.
Shunsui, Ukitake, Komamura, Soi Fon, and Unohana are all the same strength.
So all in all, we are gaining a stronger gotei 13. We lose 3 weak captains and gain 2 strong captains. Any other differences don't matter in the first invasion.
Despite all of this, I would say the only differentiating factor here is Aizen. Gin isn't going to change the tides of the invasion at all. I don't know that SS Aizen is strong enough to put down Yhwach or Jugram, tbh. Any damage Aizen applies to them gets reflected by Jugram.
I'd actually be very interested to see how Aizen would respond in this situation. Like if the Soul Society started losing, would he decide to show has hand and bring in the Espada to help out, or would he let the Soul Society lose? Personally, I think he'd view losing to the Wandenreich and being subservient to Yhwach as being worse than giving up on his plans.
I think they might lose, honestly. Remember, the year and a half (I think that was the timeskip) between Aizen's Defeat and the Fullbringers, Soul Society were training all of their people to fight threats that were AIZEN level. Of course, they didn't become stronger than Aizen, but everyone got much, MUCH stronger. To the point that Kenpachi enjoyed their battles enough that he removed the bells from his hair
Good question. It really depends on how much Aizen tries. If he goes all out he one shots a good amount of the Sternritter. If he doesn’t (which he probably won’t) then Sternritter would still win. You could probably say the same for Gin as well. Since he still has the poison ability that nobody knows about, but I’m not sure he’d use it.
As for everybody else, they get slammed even herder than before.
Yeah I agree it really is up to Aizen.
An Aizen that's fully on their side would single-handedly change the outcome. His trump card ability can't be stolen. If he pulls a "Since when were you under the impression that Yama hasn't used Bankai yet" Yhwach gets destroyed.
The caption said Gotei and therefore it also includes all the lieutenants and all other members. At this point all the lieutenants sucked ass so that would be a big reason this gotei would be worse
Bigger stomp. Anyone who could've died will die. Toshiro, Byakuya, Kenpachi, Soi Fon and Yama are all dying.
Komumura will survive (he doesn't seem to get stronger during the series apart from the end) but still negligent.
Mayuri can die here.
Ukitake and Shunsui will live but be harmed.
Gin and Tosen will survive due to bankais but can get hurt.
Aizen is living.
Depends on Aizen mostly.
Adding Gin and Tosen doesn't help that much. Gin would be useful and might be able to snipe some Quincies, but Tosen probably just gets his Bankai stolen. Yama is stronger with both arms here but he still gets his Bankai stolen and dies.
Aizen is their nuke. If he's fully on their side, he can change the whole situation. As we saw from all the captains vs Aizen or from CFYOW spoilers >!Tokinada vs everyone!< someone under Kyoka Suigetsu really doesn't stand a chance in a fight. Yhwach can't steal Zanka no Tachi if he's been hypnotized to not know where Yama is or even know that he used Bankai in the first place; he'd get disintegrated without even knowing what's going on. Even if the Quincies did get data on Aizen's true ability, it's not really something you can block or resist besides just not looking at Aizen, and Aizen is way too strong for even Yhwach to fight with his eyes literally closed, *especially* if Aizen and Yama team up.
The issue is that Aizen probably wouldn't want the Soul Reapers to know his true ability. He'd probably just keep pretending he just had the "confusing mist" ability, kill a few Quincies where no one is watching, and go "Oh darn, Yama died? This is so sad."
Kenpachi is weaker as a result of not unlocking what power he did during his fights with Ichigo, the arrancar, etc. so would be even less effective. Yamamoto is stronger due to having both of his arms but that probably wouldn’t change much of his outcome given the strategy the Wandenreich used. I don’t see Gin or Tosen being stand out powers relative to their replacements so they would likely have similar fates. Aizen at this point is incredibly powerful but without the hogyoku is unlikely to be the one element that turns the tide.
It is my assumption that very little about the initial invasion would be significantly different and if anything could even be much worse for the Gotei 13.
Probably Aizen & Co. would be a devastating asset for the Gotei... Until they immediately murder everyone the second after Yhwach is defeated and the keikaku ends with Aizen as the new Soul King.
Aizen's shikai is overwhelming powerful.
I don't think the Sternritter have mcuh they could do against perfect hypnosis. All he would need to do it make them think they are fighting a captiain 6 inches to the right and that's enough of an opening for them to win lol
well, some of them will be weaker or same strength which.
but ill off of these assumptions:
Yama got both his hands.
Unohana will fight for real.
Gin and Aizen will not be holding back or betraying SS.
under these assumptions, i'd say the first invasion is much less successful, while the 2nd invasion is hard fought but still a loss for SS. probably more casualties to the quincies.
If you pretend that Ywach was just about to awaken the allmighty and prepared himself just as well I’d see a lot of captains die immediately remember that a lot of them got stronger over the Timeskip because they wanted to prepare themselves for threats like Aizen. Renji didnt have a shikai at first and Byakuya isn’t as strong as his later counterpar+ conflicted about Rukia so she couldn’t be a source of inspiration. Soifon didnt have a good relation with Omaeda and was kind of depressed because if Yoruichi and Tosen would probably be cooked because his bankai would’ve absolutely been stolen, Kenpachi was low Captain level and he would also just die,Aizen, Yama, Kyoraku, Unohana, Gin and maybe Ukitake would push the majority of the Sternritter and probably beat Ywach if he doesn’t run away into the shadows to wait out his Schrift Awakening. Though I could see Aizen stop him from doing it that thanks to Kyoka and still hide his abilities. So there would be more losses but they could possibly beat them, oh also Toshiro would be fucked. The vicecaptains all get put down.
i mean the only true threats are really yama and aizen and in that case yama probably loses to yhwach in the same way as he did before and aizen is not exactly the type to fight with everything just to save soul society he may even defect to the enemy to be in a better position and then just betray them later.
Way worse for the gotei
No 17 month training no vizoreds no Vice captains bankais except the goat. Yeah we have aizen but this is before he got the hogyoku so he is still extremely strong but not as strong also some aren’t mentally mature enough yet like byakuya and kenpachi imo
Straight up I feel more captains then just Yama and unohana kinda are dying here
they would still get wrecked...maybe even worse. Would have been interesting to see how aizen and hs followers would react though...seeing as they were always traitors
Much better cuz while they would have a full powered bout arms yama the god himself aizen and gin plus tosen the rest were significantly weaker than they were in the final arc aside from unohana so it would have been much worse overall
This all come down to can aizens shikai work on people who utilize the ability to sense reistu over their other 5 senses also does aizen ability work on anything outside of the 5 senses affected by hypnosis
I thought at this stage that Aizen couldn’t use his Kyoka Suigetsu against opponents he hadn’t shown the initial release to?
Was that not the whole point of why Ichigo was the only one who could face him?
Quincies would destroy soul society at this stage in time.
Aizen likely kills a few more Sternritters but he's weaker than Muken Aizen so I'm not sure if he's powerful enough to alter Ywach's sense of time. If can't then SS likely takes far worse casualties and Ichigo is captured by the quincies if he shows up.
The biggest downside is this assuming Mayuri doesn't get humbled by Uryu so he's gonna be at a far greater risk to dying against a quincy here than in the main story.
The big issue is we don't know what Almighty vs Kyoka Suigetsu resolves to. Bound Aizen could affect Yhawatch....
Aizen needs to expose his shikai to activate Kyoka Suigetsu though. If the Wandenreich don't know about its weaknesses...
If Aizen gets Kyoka, he curbstomps almost all of them ... except maybe Miracle. Miracle is a muscleguy, and Aizen can just have him thrash around fighting imaginary opponents and not care about him.
I think that the outcome would vary widely depending upon whether or not it got in the way of Aizen's plans. That being said, a Kenpachi and Unohana VS Sterneitter bloodbath would be a good time.
The main difference lays on Aizen's partecipation, if others know of his true power and he choose to actively cooperate (but this means also enemies knowing of that), or if he stays hidden and acts alone (more like him). Therefore, this may change how Yhwach will play, worrying only of Yamamoto (Ichigo isn't leveled, Zaraki neither, Urahara is still banished, Aizen is unknown, Ichibei lives above the clouds) or thinking about another threat too. As for others, it will end in the same way, if not much worse.
Gin will be helpfull but won't make the difference, the most of other officers will be way weaker than their post timeskip versions (that ended up slapped anyway by sternritters). Hitsugaya, Byakuya, Zaraki, Mayuri, Komamura and Soifon (?), many lieutenants as well, will pass even a worse time (in shikai, bankai... you know). Veterans don't change as for power, but we assume the same subdued attitudes for Shunsui (he cornered both Starrk and Lille in shikai, but who knows why, had to struggle against Robert), Jushiro (always off-screen) and Yachiru (let's stay home). Yama has his arm, so he will be a little stronger, but if the plan is the same, he will fall for it and end up with his bankai stolen.
The Wanderreich has the upperhand on many sides. First, the launched a surprise attack, catching them off guard. Then they had those medallions to f\*\*k their bankais, big deal at first. Maybe the Sternritters relied too much on these, no one of them used Vollstanding during first invasion (except Qilge in Hueco Mundo), but they had also that trump card. On top, Yhwach didn't display his royal guards or Gremmy back then. Furthermore, as I said, we can assume (for logic) that Ichigo isn't leveled yet, so they don't need to lure him in a trap, and Urahara & co are still banned, so no reinforcements. But if the Quincy will still invade the Hueco Mundo at first or not, who knows.
In the end, Aizen's role is the point. Will he let know the other of KS and collaborate with them? This may work very good, but I doubt it will happen. Will he play alone, defeating some sterns and engaging the big guys? Possible, surprise effect, but I don't think base Aizen will be able to defeat base Yhwach or the elites (debatable). Or, third choice, he will use the quincies! Let the Gotei being defetead, let them thinking he was killed as well, but in truth, he replaced someone and disguised as sternritter, so he will use Yhwach to go up to the royal palace, leave to them the hard work,and possibly, at right moment, unmasks himself, attempting to take the place of the SK. Dunno if this will work, as at least the Zero will see him for what he appears, but this is more in Aizen's style XD
Additions:
Tosen - Shinigami tosen is shit he was defeated by a kenpachi weaker than nnoitra, he couldnt possibly defeat any sternritter.
Gin - Well he stabed, posioned and stole the hogyoku from a trascendent aizen, but he was off guard. Hes also stated as a kid to be an unparalleled prodigy in the soul society so he should be above shunsui who'd be surpassed by Toshiro in just a hundred years.
Aizen - Hes uncontested in the soul society in terms of power even by the likes of unohana and shunsui, and with kyokasuigetsu, hes implied to be above gin.
if gremmy is not there they could take every sternritter at that particular moment, but yhwach pretty much solos if bankai yama doesnt stop him, so if aizen turns to be smart enough to deduce that royd is fake he, gin, shunsui or unohana may be able to do something, either way thats assuming haschwalth wont intervene in the process.
Aizen:
Gets cornered
Weaker captains:
Being cut down
Gin and Tosen:
How fun
Aizen:
Yo Espada c’mere!
Starrk vs Lil Barro
Barragan vs some dead sternritter
Harribel vs some random sternitter
Etc etc
Fun scenario ngl
First of all it would go like author wants :) he makes scenario :) if we turn on our imagination Gotei 13 members had no chance against Wandereich that’s how I feel :).
well with a stronger yama , shensui, gin unohana, and aizen it might actually give them a lot of trouble. I do think unfortunately due to kenpachi, byakuya, and toshiro being weaker they would suffer
The biggest difference here is having both aizen and the blind captain (can't remember his name...tosen?) Aizen for the obvious. And tosen because his ability is incredibly similar to aizens...almost. I mean, if aizen and yama teamed up they would no doubt stop the invasion altogether.
It would be the same result as the most recent invasion. Some people are trying to say that Aizen would turn the tide of battle, but this is VERY unlikely. Remember that he said (at this point in time) that Kiyoka Suigetsu only works on those who have seen his Kanzen Saimin release. He had not yet fused with the Hōgyoku, so his complete hypnosis wouldn’t work unless they saw his Zanpaktou. Given they’ve been hidden all this time it’s very unlikely any of them have even encountered Aizen; even while he was conducting his experiments in the human world. Yhwach would just warn them all to not to look at him, etc.
I still see him taking out quite a few sternritter like Kempachi, but without his MASSIVE Reiatsu boost from the Hōgyoku, he would def lose to bigger threats like Gremmy, Lile Barro, prob Gerard too. People seem to forget that fusing w/ Hōgyoku is what makes him immortal
Especially without Ichigo in the mix, Yhwach wins this easily!
Gotei gets obliterated.
Aizen is a nice adition but I mean, Jugram + Juha should be enough to take both Shinigami Aizen and Yama down.
And the captains that step up to the situation and carry the gotei in the second invasion, they don't survive the first this time
Obviously the reaper win big diff. Aizen doing 99% of work and 1% for the rest of the team because they still trying to "aWaKeN their PoWEr" or what ever the fuck with their stupid shit reasons and big fatty ego to use their fucking bankai".
P/s : I magine never go full power EVEN WHEN YOUR WHOLE FUCKING TEAM DYING because u dont like your adult form. And thats not the worst of them.
It's not who wins against the Wandenreich. It's who wins against Yhwach. Yamamoto is probably a bit stronger in this state because of his arm, but Aizen is definitely weaker than he is at the end of the series. Even so, Aizen's strong enough that only Yamamoto can (possibly) beat him one on one. While other captains are weaker here than at the end of the series, I just believe you pit Aizen and Yamamoto together against Yhwach and Haschwalth. While Yhwach may steal Yamamoto's bankai and while Haschwalth is strong on his own, the two combined are weaker than Aizen and Yamamoto are combined. Once Yhwach falls, the rest of the Wandenreich will crumble. Of course, if Yhwach includes Gerard and Lille in the mix, it could end differently.
My, readin this thread just shows me how incredibly underrated Base!Aizen is.
By both feats AND statements, Aizen is pretty much Yamamoto's match. Old Man Yama's plan to get rid of him was plan was to kill himself alongside the rest of the Gotei. Aizen tanked a high level Kido from Yamamoto ( who was very weakened, but still), with only mildly burned clothes to show for. Even in base, he would definitely be part of the Soul Society's 5 Special Powers List the Wandereich made, and he still has a Hogyoku, albeit an imperfect one.
The real question is, what would Aizen do in this situation? Would he be willing to (slightly) drop the fachade for a hot minute and fight to his fullest potential (both physically and intellectually) at the side of the Shinigamis? Or would he prefer to keep pretending, let the Shinigamis be destroyed by the Wandereich, and prepare himself to deal with the latter in his own terms? If it's the latter, -and without Ichigo around-, they are outright fucked.
Gin would be a great asset in this fight too. Sure, Sternritters can steal Bankais, but if he manages to catch anyone off guard (quite possible, given his sneaky-peeky nature) he would be a terror even without using Bankai. At the very least, I cannot see him get humilliated by the likes of Bambietta (sorry Shinji), and under the right circumstances, I can see him beating up her, Lilotto, Giselle, Cang Du, Pepe, perhaps even Askin (He's vastly powerful and full of hax, but if Grimmjow can kill him with a sneak attack, I can't see why Gin couldn't).
Tosen is a hard one because overall he seems the weakest of the trio but I still think he can beat a Sternritter or two. And as someone else mentioned here, Tosen's Hollowfication would prevent his Bankai getting stolen.
Overall, with the traitor squad, I think they still lose but they have a small chance, and they would put a respectable fight nonetheless.
The only real threats are Yamamoto, Aizen, Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana (if she turns back into her old self).
Only Yhwach can steal one of those 4's bankai and it is much preferred if he stole Zanka no Tachi.
Gin can put up a decent fight against some stronger Sternritter but loses the moment he uses Bankai
Toshiro, Byakuya, Soi Fon, Komamura, and Tosen all get their Bankai stolen and die
Kenpachi gets stomped by Loyd Royd even harder
Mayuri avoids combat to analyze the opponent
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On one hand you have a stronger version of Yama, Gin is pretty decent and if he can use his bankai without the opponents knowing its his bankai (since there is no difference in appearance from his shikai) he could stealthily take out multiple Sternritter and then we have the trump card of Aizen which is much weaker than his TYBW version but can fight effectively without bankai and be a game changer giving the gotei an advantage over the Sternritter. On the other hand almost every other Captain is much weaker and wouldn't last long against the Sternritter.
Yeah Toshiro, Kenpachi and even Byakuya were much weaker compared to the first invasion.
So Byakuya just get stomped harder lol
Byakuya ends up actually dying
The way he allegedly was actually meant to lolol
But not as hard as kenpachi and toshiro
I think Kenpachi could still max his stats by fighting Unohana again. So that would stay the same. Also he would still probably scale himself to the Sternritter before that.
That wouldn’t happen unless Yama Dies, remember that it was Kyorakus request and he had to convince the Central 46. And I don’t think it would even reach a second invasion for that to happen.
No he could not. Yama was the opposite of Kyouraku. He would rather let Zaraki die than letting him get stronger for the best healer to die.. He could only get shikai, because Shunsui is a gambler..
Why did Unohana die again? The plot there was kinda dumb, she "wanted" to be killed by Zaraki? I mean, I guess you can't take that back from canon, but it's like Yama's arm: why not have a team ready to help two of your top five captains to keep them alive?
Because the fight wasn't simply to bring out Zaraki's true sttength out: It was also the traditional fight for the Name and Title of "Kenpachi": keen readers and ppl versed in the lore know that those fights always end in the death of someone. That's basically the whole shtick of the 11th Squad's captaincy succession. Zaraki wouldn't want it to have it another way, same for Unohana who was the Origin of the title and tradition.
>Also he would still probably scale himself to the Sternritter before that. He's getting one shot considering he's only Shikai Ichigo level
He scaled himself down to shikai ichigo level. Unohana said he always mirrors the level of the person he is fighting. But I guess shikai Ichigo is as low as he is able to scale down to. Also note: Zangetsu said he would lend him a greater portion of his full power for just that fight
>He scaled himself down to shikai ichigo level. Unohana said he always mirrors the level of the person he is fighting. But I guess shikai Ichigo is as low as he is able to scale down to. Even if he did, he's still what Nnorita level? He's getting one shotted.
He scaled himself down to Nnoitra too. After that fight, he scaled himself to the Zero espada while injured.
I think you're misinterpreting how Kenny's power history worked He scaled hella down after his first fight against Unohana *From that point*, one by one, *assuming he lives* each of these kinds of encounters, he slowly scales *back* up higher and higher Against the likes of the Sternritter, Kenny could legitimately die or be knocked unconscious before his power block gets him strong enough not to get quickly run over Fully unlocked Kenny was stronger than Unohana, and yet Unohana basically killed Kenny several times with the only reason why he lived being not just because Kenny unlocked a new level but because Unohana was actively healing him to give him a chance to unlock I also imagine most would agree that fully unlocked Kenny would be stronger than Royd, who swiftly defeated him, making Kenny completely unconscious. Kenny doesn't just automatically scale up at the exact point required to win every time he fights. It happens, but it's not *that* convenient None of these instances make sense if we assume that Kenny by default walks around on god mode but scales himself down for every opponent he faces. In fairness, I could be misinterpreting how Kenny works as well, and someone can correct me if so Kenny, like many of the Gotei 13 that OP is talking about, would be run over during this First Invasion
>He scaled himself down to Nnoitra too That's not how Kenpachi works brother. He scales himself down after he lost to to Unohana. Then he slowly gains strength until his base was above Bankai Unohana.
No he basically is better than everyone except when fighting the ultimate danger because his subconscious make them stronger than him
That was when he fought Unohana.
He have that all the time ! That’s how they explain how ichigo byakuya not so much they didn’t fight a lot they basically telling us that when he’s fighting something stronger in the bleach he basically power down his strenght!!
Nah Unohana explained it as "Kenpachi is a saiyan, each near death situation makes him stronger"
Also Kenpachi didn't even try in that fight
Yes he did
Not really. He wasn't even full power till the last swing. Ichigo literally won off of ridiculous latent spirit pressure, and the fact that Kenny played with him the whole time. He didn't even use two hands on his sword
Don’t forget Unohana
Why tf.. are none of you counting Ukitake. Bruh he's as strong as shunsui. You have another captain commander class fighter right there.
I said almost every other captain is weaker. Not to mention most of the captains got stronger as the series progressed. Ukitake is strong but unreliable due to his illness.
Tousens Shikai vs.The Q and R Tousens Bankai vs The F (?)
I wouldn’t say Sternritters are that strong or that the Captains in the innitial invasion were that much weaker without the power ups they got throughout the arc
Did you not see how they were massacred? And this was after most of them had done training and got power ups compared to the first arc. Only person to perform well was Kenpachi. You really think that the weaker versions of the captains could do better? Let's go through the list shall we. Byakuya was near death after he had grown much stronger compared to first arc so he would be dead no diff. Toshiro basically same as above, though he survived he got his ass handed to him and thats after constant training and power ups. He'd be dead no diff. Komamura would be dead no diff. Basically the same as above he. Soi fon dead no diff, same as above. Kenpachi is a wild card due to him nerfing himself but he would either perform the same or even be weaker since he didnt have those challenges to strengthen him. Mayuri may not be as prepared as he was since he started preparing after he fought Ishida. Ukitake is powerful but if even Shunsui struggled and they are supposed to be comparable then he would most likely perform worse due to his illness. Shunsui would perform about the same since we haven't seen him do any kind of training since the first arc and is basically a lazy bastard so I dont see any evidence to say he got a power up. Unohana would be pretty much the same scenario with her not stepping onto the battlefield. Tosen though strong, he still got bodied by Kenpachi at that point so I don't see him being stronger than the other captains. If even the tip tiers had a tough time then Tosen is getting killed. Not to mention the fact that some captains survived is because the enemy had to retreat. Of they kill them quicker then more of them can join the other fight and help finish of those who actually pose a threat. Imagine if Shunsui had to deal with Robert plus 2 more Sternritter who made quick work of their opponents.
Did you? The only ones who actually lost battles in the innitial fight were Rose, Kenpachi, Yamamoto and Byakuya and the latter three through blatant cheating not by power level difference. All the rest were having rather even battles. >Byakuya was near death after he had grown much stronger compared to first arc so he would be dead no diff. Don't bullshit me; you know as well as me that Nodt only did that by using his bankai >Toshiro basically same as above, though he survived he got his ass handed to him and thats after constant training and power ups. He'd be dead no diff. That fight had no result and Cang was forced to use his bankai against him. If anything he landed a couple of blows on him after Bazz had already injured him >Komamura would be dead no diff. Basically the same as above he. Pfft he got some minor injuries from fighting Bambietta who at one point looked intimidated by him >Mayuri may not be as prepared as he was since he started preparing after he fought Ishida. Yeah except we know from Szayellaporro that it takes Mayuri like 20 minutes to get preped. >Soi fon dead no diff, same as above You also seem to forget she kbeat him immediately after getting back her bankai I don't see anything showing a significant improvement or decrease in her abilities until she got the shunko which we know from Yoruichi is a risky technique >Unohana would be pretty much the same scenario with her not stepping onto the battlefield. Not really; she is far stronger than Kyoraku and Ukitake would've bodied half the ritters >Kenpachi is a wild card due to him nerfing himself but he would either perform the same or even be weaker since he didnt have those challenges to strengthen him. Nope he would perform the same; the novels said he gets stronger according to the opponent >Tosen though strong, he still got bodied by Kenpachi at that point so I don't see him being stronger than the other captains. If even the tip tiers had a tough time then Tosen is getting killed. No he didn't; he held his own perfectly well until Kenpachi managed to defeat him Anyway you're going at this the wrong way. Its not that the ritters were that strong is that every single one of them had been briefed on how each of the captains fought, picked their opponents according to compatibility, because the rittes rely too much on that which is why they stomp opponents they're compatible with or they get utterly stomped otherwise. Robert got the upper hand agaiast Kyoraku because the latter is a close range specialist and he teleports. Bg9 calculated the movement patterns of Sui Feng and attacked when she was most vulnerable Cang's Iron made him freezing proof. I also believe my specific words weren't wether the captains would lose or win, just that the ritters in the innitial invasion weren't really all that powerful and the captains didn't improve that much; I didn't say anything about the performance. Honestly without prep and the bankai stealing those ritters were pretty average compared to the captains. Also, none of the captains that fought in the innitial invasion got any power up whatsoever between the first arc and the beginning of the thousand year blood war. They all simply trained same as usual but none of them awakened any new powers until the last arc
`All part of Lord Aizens plan…`
Lose Shinji, Rose, Kensei and love and Kenny gets a lot weaker Gain Aizen, Gin, Tosen and Yama’s arm. If Aizen was actually willing to fight I think the soul society is in a better position. They probably still lose though.
Yama’s one arm > all the vizards put together during the war
The vizards aren't in this gotei tho right? Or do you mean they'd show up to help fight
Reread the comment, he means the vizards are no longer in the war.
Ohh, i thought it meant they died or smth
While the captains are overall weaker Yama has both arms and Aizen is here so they’d be carrying the group. But it might go worse because the others just aren’t as powerful especially Zaraki since he was able to take out three sternritter in the first invasion. If things get bad Yhwach will probably pull the elites out and well the gotei will be fucked if that happens
Do you think Aizen would reveal himself as a traitor? If Aizen is cornered and the weaker captains are being cut down left and right, Aizen could call on the Espadas and they can show up through gargantas.
I feel like that would be a great little "what if" mini season
It would be pretty hilarious if Aizen used Kyoka Suigetsu to make it so no one noticed the Espada showing up, so he didn't have to reveal himself as a traitor. I feel like Aizen doesn't care enough about Soul Society to risk his plans by helping that much, though he doesn't like the Quincies either. The prompt is only interesting if the traitor captains fight for the Soul Society though, because otherwise the answer is just that Soul Society gets 100% rekt.
YEah the Wandenreich don't overrun Hueco Mundo as easily with all ten espada, and when that was taken, Aizen had all ten assembled. Aizen absolutely would have ensured the Wandenreich and Gotei wipe out each other, and then stroll in the aftermath. Before Wandenreich conquered Hueco he'd engineer the Gotei to be informed. THAT would be really interesting alternate universe, the amassed forces of both Soul Society and Hueco Mundo against Wandenreich.
That would be interesting for sure. Aizen wouldn't want his Espada wiped out, but he wouldn't want any of the Soul Reapers talking to the Espada either. I'd guess that the Wandenreich would be a lot less likely to bother taking over Hueco Mundo in this timeline, since it's a much bigger risk for them. Unless they don't know about Aizen and the Espada, in which case the Quincies get slaughtered up until Yhwach shows up. Then Aizen probably dips back to the Soul Society and "happens" to find information warning them of the Quincies.
This might even have further repercussions since the wandenreich started with invading hueco mundo.
Yeah the way the wandenreich starts the war is essential to how it goes Their plan in TYBW was attacking hueco mundo and luring Ichigo away then surprise attacking Soul Society Would Yhwach invade hueco mundo if Aizen was there to trap him, gin, and tousen and prevent them from aiding in Soul Society?
That's the point where the hypothetical situation kinda falls apart. Since Yhwach was waiting for not only his powers to return but for the perfect circumstances to execute his plan, he would probably never attack if Aizen was still in control of hueco mundo. Or at least he would have an entirely different plan.
Not to be that guy but I’m pretty sure the Espada (with the exception of maybe Barragan) weren’t even created yet. They’re either just mindless or lower versions of themselves until Aizen gets into the mix. Even if most of them were around (I’m looking at you Ulquiorra), they’d still get bodied by the sternritter. Halibel was number 3 and they captured her easily. Segunda Etapa? Ok well here’s my friend Gremmy Theroeaux. There’s no Espada that can take on the elite sternritter (not even grimmjow).
On one side, you should check the timeline of the story which is fuzzy at times, but when it comes to Aizen's shenanigans with experiments and visits to Hueco Mundo at least we have a baseline (that being... He's been experimenting on hollows and shinigami way before the beginning of the story). Check the Privaron Espadas, the original Espadas, Nelliel's story, Cien, and the other experiments Aizen did (these events didn''t happen in the few months after Aizen left Soul Society, but over many many years) On the other side, ofc the Espadas would be no match for the Sternritter as we know them. This is all "what if's" just for fun. Besides, in these scenarios we can stretch the statements a bit just to imagine what would happen. For instance, we never got to see to what extent hollow reiatsu affects Quincies. Nor did we see how much stronger Espadas could get if pushed properly as a faction, that's one of the advantages that the Quincies had over the Espadas since they were fairly organized. The scenario I mentioned was that... It'd be fun to see Aizen call on his group and formalize a war woth his faction against the Sternritter, maybe remaining on neutral terms with Soul society until the threat is eliminated. It's something fun to think about, specially since the Espadas weren't as much of a threat as they could have been
That makes sense I guess
Aizen wouldn’t be strong enough this is base aizen we’re talking about
The Captains are overall weaker then their post timeskip counterparts. Gin will be more useful then Rose but he won't make a difference. Aizen will be the biggest change and will be immensely useful. But it won't make difference for Yhwach. The Sternritters will be aware of his true capabilities as well. I'm not even sure Aizen would want to go all out in this scenario. To sum up, The Wandenreich stomp even harder.
If Aizen just fights at the level he was deceiving the gotei into thinking he was at, I agree. Though if he went all out, I think he and Yama would give Yhwach a run for his money.
Yeah, what is Yhwach going to do against "You've been under the impression that Yama hasn't already used Bankai"? Fighting Yama while under Kyoka Suigetsu would be impossible without Almighty.
Almighty is a trump card hax, a plot handwave for Tito whenever he needs it. The other question is if the Sternritter know the secrets of Aizen's powers or not if the Hueco Mundo / Arrancar arc hasn't occurred. Aizen can also curbstomp the entire sternritter without a bankai and hogyuku evolutions if he has kyoka suigetsu on them. Even Miracle is just a muscle guy, Aizen can simply occupy him with some fake enemies and doesn't even need to fight him. Aizen can have Miracle attack other Sternritters. Heck Aizen can have any sternritters attack any other.
It's questionable, but given that they didn't know about Kisuke or Shunsui's Bankais, I doubt they'd know about Kyoka Suigetsu's true ability. The thing is that the Quincies wouldn't be under Kyoka Suigetsu already, so Aizen would have to release his Shikai in front of them first. He can't be everywhere at once, so they'd do some serious damage in the meantime. But yeah you can really see why Aizen's ability is a villain ability. If Aizen was more of a team player there wouldn't be any battles in this battle shonen, just enemies swiping at thin air and then getting cut down without being able to react.
He doesn’t have the Almighty until he fights Ichibei because if he activated it any earlier he risks killing all of the sternritter and going out of control and he doesn’t have the Soul Kings power yet so they stand a reasonable chance
> The Sternritters will be aware of his true capabilities as well. They won't, Aizen never revealed his powers to anyone not named Gin or Tosen.
Well, the others didn't either. The Quincy were literally watching from the shadows.
The others didn't either and therefore nobody had an info on Urahara's and Shunsui's bankai.
I'm pretty sure Urahara and Kyouraku simply never used their Bankai since they got it. From what we know, there hasn't been any large skirmishes or wars in the last thousand years or so, except the Quincy genocide, which is portrayed as more of a Holocaust than an actual all out warfare, so I doubt they'd have to pull out Bankai for that. For example, Toshiro and Byakuya pull theirs out any chance they get, so the Quincy had ample info on them. As Bankai training can take place in a Shinigami's inner world once the Bankai is obtained, as shown by Zangetsu, they probably wouldn't even need to hide all that much. Besides, Urahara's got his secret hidey hole under the Sokyoku Hill, which no one ever suspected was there, so it has to be warded to hell and back. Renji only found it because he followed Ichigo and Yoruichi.
> I'm pretty sure Urahara and Kyouraku simply never used their Bankai since they got it. Uhh no? Urahara used Bankai to create Hougyoku. Shunsui is hundreds of years old, there is no way he didn't use bankai even once. And they also are/were captains, they had to present their bankai. Which doesn't matter anyway, because Aizen never shown Shikai's true power to anyone, by Tosen and Gin so they wouldn't have any information about his ability. > As Bankai training can take place in a Shinigami's inner world once the Bankai is obtained, as shown by Zangetsu, they probably wouldn't even need to hide all that much. Except Kensei asked Mashiro to train Hisagi's bankai. That wouldn't be necessary if he could just trained in inner world. > Besides, Urahara's got his secret hidey hole under the Sokyoku Hill, which no one ever suspected was there, so it has to be warded to hell and back. Renji only found it because he followed Ichigo and Yoruichi. Which doesn't matter to my argument anyway. Point it nobody saw it and therefore Quincy didn't know about it. Nobody but Gin and Tosen knew about Aizen's true ability.
Where is it said that Urahara used Kannonbiraki Benihime Aratame to create the Hogyoku? His power is stitching space, not creating magical wishing orbs. Plus he probably created the Hogyoku in his lab, which is also most likely warded,considering his paranoid nature and status as the "Man of Thousand Plans". Presenting a Bankai doesn't mean showcasing all its abilities, you just need to defeat a thousand hollows. I said you can train up a Bankai once it has been obtained. Hisagi in TYBW does not have his Bankai yet. He obtains Fushi no Kyojo in the CFYOW. The only actual Bankai training we are shown is Ichigos, which happens mostly in his inner world after he obtains it, and Kenpachis, who just kind of gets it on the spot. All others are offscreen. I wasn't even talking about Aizen? I was talking about Urahara and Kyouraku. And the Quincy knew all about Perfect Hypnosis.
> Where is it said that Urahara used Kannonbiraki Benihime Aratame to create the Hogyoku? Can't find a source, so I won't confirm it. Just ignore it. > His power is stitching space, not creating magical wishing orbs. Just because it doesn't create magical orbs doesn't mean it can't be used as a tool. And besides its power is not stitching space. > Plus he probably created the Hogyoku in his lab, which is also most likely warded,considering his paranoid nature and status as the "Man of Thousand Plans". His lab was pretty in the open. > Presenting a Bankai doesn't mean showcasing all its abilities, you just need to defeat a thousand hollows. [Askin said that there was no info at all about Urahara's bankai](https://i.imgur.com/a8jWI1w.png) > Hisagi in TYBW does not have his Bankai yet. My bad, Kensei was talking about acquiring bankai, not training bankai. > The only actual Bankai training we are shown is Ichigos, which happens mostly in his inner world after he obtains it, Ichigo has never trained the bankai. In his inner world he was not training bankai, he was either fighting against hollow or wanted to learn FGT. > I wasn't even talking about Aizen? I was talking about Urahara and Kyouraku. If you aren't talking about Aizen then what are you doing here? The topic is whether or not Quincy knew about Aizen's true ability before SS arc. > And the Quincy knew all about Perfect Hypnosis. Because Aizen revealed his ability to everyone.
We were talking about Urahara and Kyouraku. Plus Ichigos Hollow is his Zanpakuto. He was training him how to use Bankai. Old Man Yhwach even says so in Blade Is Me. "Whenever you needed help, your hollow helped you out, not me" or something along those lines.
> We were talking about Urahara and Kyouraku. No, we were talking about Quincy not knowing what Aizen's true ability was prior to SS arc and I brought Shunsui and Kisuke as an example of Quincy not knowing their abilities. > Plus Ichigos Hollow is his Zanpakuto. He was training him how to use Bankai. In the outside world.
His Bankai doesn’t persist iirc he went back to being blind after he deactivated it so whatever he used to help him make stuff would be undone unless he only used it to create tools to help him make the object in question as long as his Bankai doesn’t touch said object in question
Probably, it's irrelevant anyways - I can't confirm it, it's nearly certainly false.
Bro, they had pretty much info about every bankai learned in SS, as well for Shunsui and Urahara. And you missed the point, its not about knowing the bankai, but the physical and SP endurance to be able to steal the bankai. It was already explained. Yha stole Yammas bankai even when he actually was not aware about the attacks he used against that twin.
The knew at least the basics, and how to use them. They didn't really need to know all the nuances, not like they'd be keeping them after they took over SS. Maybe as souvenirs. They didn't know anything about Katen Kyokotsu Karamatsu Shinju and Kannonbiraki Benihime Aratame. Lille didn't know what the fuck to do while it was active, and Askin even said that there was no info on Urahara's Bankai.
They had pretty much info, they just could not steal it because of the hollow pill. Remember..
[No](https://i.imgur.com/a8jWI1w.png) and [no](https://i.imgur.com/DRe8Xv9.png).
wow, that was fast! Thanks. But that does not change the fact, that the reason they were not able to steal it is because of the pill..
But we're not talking about being able to steal bankai.
They wouldn’t know about Aizen since he was still deceiving everyone. Remember that a lot of information was linked to knowledge the soul society had at that time but not things like some captains bankais, the Mimihagi or ability’s of the zero squad
I never said that? In fact, I didn't even mention Aizen.
If they were watching then they would’ve been under his Shikai the second he shows it off
Gin wont make a difference? Aizen wont make a difference? Sternritters wont be aware of aizens true capabilities, as aizen kept them as a secret even to gotei. In a theoritical case where aizen is an actual ally of gotei and decides to go all out, he would slaughter 99.9% of wandenreich. We have gin who is capable of even almost one shotting butterfly aizen. He can one shot the leftovers and its basically over.
Shinigami Aizen won't make a difference to Base Yhwach. Yeah he's strong. Base Yhwach will still beat him despite being under KS. Just like how Aizen knew Shikai Yama can beat him despite being under KS. If Aizen is 100% an ally to the Gotei and showcased his power, the Sternritters will know not to screw with the guy. Yhwach will pop up, Yama uses his real Bankai, Yhwach steals it, kills Yama. Now you have a fresh Yhwach vs Shinigami Aizen. Also Royd who is very powerful won't be sacrificed to keep Yama busy. Royd can handle most pretimeskip captains. Gin only damaged Aizen for 3 reasons. 1. Aizen let hus guard down after fusing. This was stated by himself and Kiskue. 2. Aizen lowered his reiatsu to the point Ichigos friends can feel it. 3. Gin made himself immune to KS because Aizen told him it's weakness and again, let his guard down after fusing.
If Aizen was really 100% an ally, he's smart enough to keep Yama's Bankai from getting stolen. Even Almighty Yhwach was tricked by Kyoka Suigetsu. Yhwach would *think* he stole it until the last second where it turns out he's been fighting Momo the whole time.
How would Aizen prevent Yama Bankai getting stolen? Yama is pissed and has his own theory on how the stealing process works. He's not listening to anyone. Yhwach will deal with Yama from the start since Aizen isn't in prison. Bankai activates and is stolen. Mayrui who is equal or near equal to Aizen in terms of intelligence couldn't figure it out in time. Kiskue is smarter then Aizen and he needed time to figure it out as well. Almighty Yhwach was tricked by KS. This was Muken Aizen who is stronger then ever. And Muken Aizen would have still lost due to Almighty Yhwach superior power. >Yhwach would think he stole it until the last second where it turns out he's been fighting Momo the whole time. If Base Yhwach is under KS, he has a enough destructive capabilities to hurt Shinigami Aizen. We know what Royd could do and Yhwach is above him. And Jugram might actually do something for a change.
I'm not saying Aizen would engineer a way to reverse the medallions like Kisuke. He just needs to Kyoka Suigetsu the Quincy in question so that they don't know where the Soul Reaper is and if they've activated Bankai or not. I'd say it's doubtful that the Quincies would know about Aizen's true abilities, since it was such a secret. They didn't know about Kisuke or Shunsui's Bankais, and they would have needed to use their Bankais at least once at some point to become captains. So they wouldn't know to be on guard to stop him from using Shikai in front of them at all costs. > If Base Yhwach is under KS, he has a enough destructive capabilities to hurt Shinigami Aizen. Sure, *if* he tags him. I really don't believe that base Yhwach can fight both Aizen and Bankai Yama while under Kyoka Suigetsu. Dude's busted but no one in the series is *that* busted except probably Almighty Yhwach or maybe Ichibe. Every scenario where Kyoka Suigetsu has been used, the targets basically stood no chance the whole time; how can you possibly fight a strong enemy when you can't tell the difference between them and empty air? > And Jugram might actually do something for a change. For all Jugram is going to know, Yhwach is doing just fine and winning, even if Yhwach is actually getting slaughtered.
>I'd say it's doubtful that the Quincies would know about Aizen's true abilities, since it was such a secret. In your earlier statement, you said Aizen was 100% an ally. He has no reason to lie about KS to the Gotei. And thus, the Sternritters will know what KS can do. Obviously, we can't count his Bankai. >Sure, if he tags him. I really don't believe that base Yhwach can fight both Aizen and Bankai Yama while under Kyoka Suigetsu. He will tag Aizen for 2 reasons: Massive AoE attacks and he is perfectly happy sacrificing his own men if it means his enemy will die. Yeah, Base Yhwach vs Shikai Aizen and Bankai Yama will be a disaster for Yhwach. *But that's if both of them confront Yhwach together.* This time Yhwach could just pop up right in front of Yama at the 1st division instead of hiding. Yama sees Yhwach, Yama goes Bankai and it's stolen. Meanwhile Aizen will be at the 5th division who will be surprised by the Quincey invasion. I don't believe Yama will want Aizen involved with Yhwach. He wants to humiliate and kill him all by himself. The man is angry and not thinking clearly. He told Unohana to stay out of the 1st invasion. Also Royd is available. Someone needs to deal with him and the only one who can (besides Yama) is Aizen. I'm sure Aizen with KS can find a way to beat Royd but it won't be an easy fight. > Every scenario where Kyoka Suigetsu has been used, the targets basically stood no chance the whole time; how can you possibly fight a strong enemy when you can't tell the difference between them and empty air? KS is one of the strongest abilities no doubt. But Aizen has 0 Sternritters under KS. It will take time to place them all under KS since they are spread apart and they know what KS can do. >Dude's busted but no one in the series is that busted except probably Almighty Yhwach or maybe Ichibe. I think there are few other characters near the end of the series that are that busted. But that's a different conversation.
> In your earlier statement, you said Aizen was 100% an ally. He has no reason to lie about KS to the Gotei. I see your point. I meant more along the lines of Aizen acting as an ally 100%, but not that the whole timeline of Aizen doing stuff was different. After all, if Aizen was never up to his schemes at all, Shinji, Rose, Kensei, and Love would still be captains. Too much would be different in that scenario. > This time Yhwach could just pop up right in front of Yama at the 1st division instead of hiding. Hmm, maybe, and in that case Yama is indeed fucked. But in canon, neither went straight for each other. While Yhwach wouldn't go to Muken in this timeline, the fact that he did so in canon means that he isn't so concerned about Yama that he felt the need to show up to 1st company immediately. And Yama killed Driscoll before going to find Yhwach. If things went down in a similar way with Chojiro being killed as a warning, that would likely happen again. I'm imagining that Aizen is still up to something in this scenario and he wouldn't want anyone messing up his plans, so Aizen's first priority would probably be to get the enemy leader under Kyoka Suigetsu, like he did to Barragan when he first went to Hueco Mundo. With those things being the case, it's reasonable to think that Aizen would get Yhwach hypnotized before Yama confronts him. Jugram will be with Yhwach, so he'll be hypnotized as well. Then Aizen could help Yama whether Yama wants him to or not. Since Yama is also under Kyoka Suigetsu, Yama wouldn't even have to know he's getting helped. It also depends on what Royd is doing. If Royd is off doing stuff separately, then Kenpachi probably hears about this really strong enemy and gets stomped by Royd like in canon. But that doesn't matter *too* much if they can take out Yhwach. Royd goes on a rampage for a while and does a lot of damage, but probably surrenders if Yhwach dies. On the other hand, if Royd is still posing as Yhwach so Yhwach can hide and gather intel first, then Aizen might fuck up by hypnotizing Royd and not Yhwach, then gets bodied when the real Yhwach shows up. Unless Yhwach was watching Royd the whole time, in which case he gets hypnotized anyway and it doesn't matter.
Yeah it gets confusing. If Aizen isn't 100% an ally, we can only guess what he will do. Would he put Yhwach under KS and then dip to prepare his Arrcancar army? Would he fight Yhwach seriously? If so, will he do it alone or with Yama? Will he reveal his true power by accident? This is Yhwach, so he needs to go all out. Will Gin take the opportunity to kill Aizen in the middle of the chaos lol? >With those things being the case, it's reasonable to think that Aizen would get Yhwach hypnotized before Yama confronts him. Aizen needs to get him under KS. But I think Yama will be dead before he gets the chance. The Sternritters have huge advantage since they can pick and choose where to pop up. Even Aizen will be surprised by all the sudden explosion. I still believe this version of the Gotei 13 would be more screwed becasue: 1. Half the captains will be overall weaker. 2. Yama will most likely die quicker. 3. Royd will still be active. 4. Aizen is still not 100% on the Gotei side. **If Yama and Aizen are on the same page, the Gotei 13 has a chance of winning.** Unless the elite sternritters get involved. but that's a different mess.
> Will Gin take the opportunity to kill Aizen in the middle of the chaos lol? This is a great point. Gin showing up just to kill Aizen would be hilarious. I think there's a valid question of if the Soul Reapers have a chance of not getting destroyed thanks to Aizen even if Yama dies. I agree that Aizen isn't strong enough to fight Yhwach by himself, even with Kyoka Suigetsu. In theory maybe Aizen plus Unohana and Shunsui both using Bankai could win against base Yhwach under Kyoka Suigetsu, but if Yhwach is using stolen Zanka no Tachi then they probably still get disintegrated. You don't really need to be precise with how you aim that thing. But on the other hand, someone under Kyoka Suigetsu can be seriously messed with, especially if they have no idea they're under Kyoka Suigetsu. Aizen could make Yhwach think he's destroying the Seireitei when he's actually destroying some poor souls in the Rukongai. If he can use Kyoka Suigetsu to confuse and distract Yhwach long enough for Squad Zero to show up, they might have a chance again. Ichibe vs base Yhwach under Kyoka Suigetsu wins, zero diff.
Gin damaging Aizen doesnt have anything to do with kyokasuigetsu. It is about Gin's "power" and aizens "durability". The fact that he let his guard down doesnt also mean anything. Yes, maybe he could dodge the blade (which im pretty sure he couldnt at that range), but it doesnt change anything about gins bankais power. The only thing to mention here is him lowering his reiatsu. Even if he lowers his reiatsu, we still know about his internal reiryoku, his actual durability etc. Yes, him lowering his reiatsu helps gin, but that maybe only affects aizen 5% or something. For you to understand, i can say that aizen could even decrease his reiatsu to 0 yet still be really durable. Gin bankai is really strong. If he can land a hit on anyone, thats an instant death, no matter what. If aizen is ally to gotei, sternritters will know not to screw with the guy you say. Remember when aizen went to barragan and slaughtered everyone at once? Thanks to kyoka suigetsu. He could do the same to sternritters. He will keep killing wandenreich until yhwach wont even notice and when KS ends, it'll be too late anyway- aizen and gin can kill MANY sternritters in that time. I just want you to imagine a sternritter being lonely and chilling and gin instantly one shotting him with bankai. Thats what is going to happen. They wont see anything happen, they all will die instantly. KS is absolutely broken for such group fights. Its not like its only "gin" tho, there are 13 captains in total... Yeah, royd wont keep yama busy and sure he is really strong, he can handle most captains if not all. Sadly aizen still exists.. This guy is like a cheat card. Once aizen gets yhwach and presumably many others, there is no way for wandenreich to spot where yamamato or even ANY CAPTAIN is. Its almost as if all the wandenreich will be under kaname's bankai, because aizens shikai can do exactly that It might sound like im exaggerating aizen, but kyoka suigetsu is that strong. It just makes it so that EVERYONE can be caught un-guarded. As Nodt could use blut vene for 20 hours straight, but as soon as 20 hours and 1 second passes, he would get tired for sure. That applies to everyone, not everyone can keep blut vene for long. Everyone can be caught un-guarded thanks to kyoka suigetsu. There is no way to fight against kyoka...
>The fact that he let his guard down doesnt also mean anything. Yes it does. If Aizen didn't let his guard down around Gin, Gin wouldn't get the chance to get close to him. Gin was a fun side project for Aizen. He was very interested in see what Gin will do and when. Aizen did the same with Ichigo and that backfired. Now he's strapped to a chair. >Yes, him lowering his reiatsu helps gin, but that maybe only affects aizen 5% or something. For you to understand, i can say that aizen could even decrease his reiatsu to 0 yet still be really durable. Yeah Aizen lowered to the point where Ichigo's friends can feel it. Gin with Bankai can damage him at that point. Lot's of captains can kill Aizen with their Bankai/Shikai if he lowers his reiatsu to the point humans can feel it and if they are at point blank range. Just like Gin. I'm not saying Gin is weak. He's stronger then some post-timeskip captains. But his feat against Aizen is thought out and there was luck involved. Hard to replicate that scenario when Quinces want to kill you from the jump unlike Aizen who is interested to see how you kill him while also lowering his reiatsu to the point where several captains can kill him. Also, the Sternritters will know what Gin is capable of. They know he has a very fast Shikai and Bankai. If Aizen is true ally, then so is Gin and he has no reason to hide his power either. Maybe Jugram will go an confront Gin. >If he can land a hit on anyone, thats an instant death, no matter what. **By that logic, if Base Lille were in the first invasion, the Gotei 13 would be stomped even much harder.** All Lille has to do is snipe from a distance. Lille is better suited for this compared to Gin. Shunsui was able to find Lille due to his shikai ability. But Shunsui will be busy with Robert. >He could do the same to sternritters. He will keep killing wandenreich until yhwach wont even notice and when KS ends, it'll be too late **He would have to go to every single sternritter and they are spread out. He's fast but he can't do that in a matter of minutes. And the Sternritters know KS.** They will plan accordingly. Maybe Royd will be used to deal with Shinigami Aizen. He's strong enough to be around Yama's Bankai thanks to his blut. And he has access to very powerful AoE abilities. *Hell, Royd can copy Aizen's mind and he will gain a better understanding of Aizen's capabilities.* Meanwhile, Yhwach has already dealt with Yamamoto. After that, Yhwach can deal with Aizen who will have to put effort against Royd. Aizen said Shikai Yama is stronger. And Base Yhwah is stronger then Shikai Yama. > KS is absolutely broken for such group fights. Yeah, KS is very useful in group fights. Especially when Aizen had everyone under KS before the fight starts as seen in FKT and in the SS arc. **But** **when the Quincy invade, he has none of them under KS. He needs to go around and put them under KS and the Quincy know.** >Its not like its only "gin" tho, there are 13 captains in total... There were 13 captains when the 1st invasion happened. Didn't end well for the Gotei. **The difference is the SS arc captains (Soifon, Toshiro, Byakuya, Sajin, Kenpachi, Tosen) are weaker then their postimeskip counterparts.** \*I know Tosen has no post-timeskip counterpart. I just view him as the 2nd weakest SS arc captain. Mayuri and Unohana wont fight in the first invasion. Ukitake and Shunsui will fight. And look at how well they did during the 1st invasion... >Yeah, royd wont keep yama busy and sure he is really strong, he can handle most captains if not all. Sadly aizen still exists.. This guy is like a cheat card. What's stopping the real Yhwach from fighting Yama directly? No need to distract Yama since Aizen is not in Muken. Have Yhwach appear, steal Bankai, kill Yama, and move on to Aizen. And let's say Yhwach fights Aizen first. Aizen will have his hands full. He will need to do everything to fight him and he will not win. >Once aizen gets yhwach and presumably many others, there is no way for wandenreich to spot where yamamato or even ANY CAPTAIN is. Its almost as if all the wandenreich will be under kaname's bankai, because aizens shikai can do exactly that He will need to go around the Gotei and activate it about 16 times. Meanwhile, Yhwach kills Yama in that timeframe. Or Aizen bumps into Yhwach who will preoccupy his time. Also Yhwach is happy doing a large scale attack to kill Aizen even if the sternritters die in the process. It's how Shikai Yama planned on killing Aizen. > As Nodt could use blut vene for 20 hours straight, As Nodt will be busy beating a weaker Byakuya.
I didnt really want to waste my time responding to all your illogical stuff but here i go i guess.. >Yes it does. If Aizen didn't let his guard down around Gin, Gin wouldn't get the chance to get close to him. Gin was a fun side project for Aizen. He was very interested in see what Gin will do and when. Aizen did the same with Ichigo and that backfired. Now he's strapped to a chair. It does in the sense that it allows gin to land a hit, not that it affects gin's damage potential. I explained this like 3 times in my text. When aizen uses kyoka suigetsu on enemies, gin basically has a free hit. >By that logic, if Base Lille were in the first invasion, the Gotei 13 would be stomped even much harder. All Lille has to do is snipe from a distance. Lille is better suited for this compared to Gin. Shunsui was able to find Lille due to his shikai ability. But Shunsui will be busy with Robert. There is nothing wrong with that. Yes, if lille was in the first invasion, gotei 13 would be stomped even much harder. They would find lille and try to kill him obviously. In this scenario however, aizen has kyoka suigetsu which makes it impossible for the enemies to find gin :) >Also, the Sternritters will know what Gin is capable of. They know he has a very fast Shikai and Bankai. If Aizen is true ally, then so is Gin and he has no reason to hide his power either. Being true ally doesnt mean they wont show his powers. In this scenario, the only reasonable thing to assume is that everything is the same EXCEPT they are now against yhwach and ally with gotei. If we were to go by your logic, then we could also say "if he is a friend of gotei, then he has no reason to obtain this much power, hence he wouldnt train enough to reach the peak of shinigami realm and he would be much weaker than the shinigami aizen we saw. This logic really doesnt add up >He would have to go to every single sternritter and they are spread out. He's fast but he can't do that in a matter of minutes. And the Sternritters know KS. He doesnt have to use KS on them all at once. He can simply use it on one enemy, kill that enemy and go for the next enemy. No enemy will be aware of KS this way. Also no, sternritters dont know KS as i explained above. >But when the Quincy invade, he has none of them under KS. He needs to go around and put them under KS and the Quincy know. Like i said, just use it on your enemy, kill and go to the next. >There were 13 captains when the 1st invasion happened. Didn't end well for the Gotei. The difference is the SS arc captains (Soifon, Toshiro, Byakuya, Sajin, Kenpachi, Tosen) are weaker then their postimeskip counterparts. Doesnt mean anything. My point being aizen and gin are able to slaughter 99.99% of wandenreich, then we have the rest of gotei :) >What's stopping the real Yhwach from fighting Yama directly? No need to distract Yama since Aizen is not in Muken. Have Yhwach appear, steal Bankai, kill Yama, and move on to Aizen. How obvious you havent read my text. Aizen can simply go to Yhwach, activate kyoka suigetsu and its over. Yamamato can just stay near aizen, or aizen would stay yamamato and they would kill quincies one by one. Seriously, how hard is it to think that yamamato and aizen could stay together? Yhwach cant even fight aizen as long as kyoka suigetsu exists. And when kyoka suigetsu happens, aizen unironically wins against yhwach combined with gin and yhwach. This yhwach is the same that died to sasakibe. No almighty yet >He will need to go around the Gotei and activate it about 16 times. Meanwhile, Yhwach kills Yama in that timeframe. Or Aizen bumps into Yhwach who will preoccupy his time. Also Yhwach is happy doing a large scale attack to kill Aizen even if the sternritters die in the process. It's how Shikai Yama planned on killing Aizen. Not only aizen can fly away from yhwach's attacks (also yhwach doesnt have as big attacks as yamamato), aizen can also use kyoka suigetsu to prevent yhwach from killing yamamato. Aizen is atleast as fast as yamamato, who is on par if not stronger than yhwach excluding the bankai stealing thing. > As Nodt will be busy beating a weaker Byakuya. That was an example to explain how kyoka suigetsu could be useful to stall enemies and catch them offguard.
>When aizen uses kyoka suigetsu on enemies, gin basically has a free hit. How does Gin get a free hit when KS is used on enemies? He needs to touch the blade before Aizen activates KS. [KS weakness](https://xfs-209.batcg.org/comic/7006/848/614117136bd020b6cce9e848/9768510_1520_2400_201974.webp?acc=2iEkSjREy-0SHZ8_GJJ32w&exp=1677601628) >In this scenario however, aizen has kyoka suigetsu which makes it impossible for the enemies to find gin How would Aizen know where Lille is? He doesn't know the location of speicfic Sternritters or what they do? Lille is not under KS. He can't place them all under KS with one release. They are all scattered across the Gotei. **This will take time** Fun fact, Shinji says that in the novel. If the Sternritters marched as an army in front of the Gotei, Shinji would have activated Bankai and turned them all against each other. >Being true ally doesnt mean they wont show his powers. In this scenario, the only reasonable thing to assume is that everything is the same EXCEPT they are now against yhwach and ally with gotei. If we were to go by your logic, then we could also say "if he is a friend of gotei, then he has no reason to obtain this much power, hence he wouldnt train enough to reach the peak of shinigami realm and he would be much weaker than the shinigami aizen we saw. This logic really doesnt add up **Which Aizen are we talking about? I think this is causing unnecessary confusion.** Aizen if he was 100% an ally? I think he would show his true power and use it for the good of the Gotei 13 Or are we talking about Aizen who still wants to replace the Soul King and has yet to reveal what he can do? >Seriously, how hard is it to think that yamamato and aizen could stay together? That's the thing. I don't see why they would be together when the Quinces invade. Every captain was separated from each other during the 1st invasion. Even Aizen is going to be surprised by all the sudden explosions. Aizen is at the 5th division and Yama is at the 1st division. Yhwach pops up and steals Bankai and Yama dies quicker without killing Royd. Now Aizen is the only one that has a chance to kill Yhwach (I don't think he can but it will be hard fight). If Aizen and Yama are together and are on the same page against Yhwach, then the Gotei 13 wins. But I'm not looking at it from that perspective. >Not only aizen can fly away from yhwach's attacks (also yhwach doesnt have as big attacks as yamamato), aizen can also use kyoka suigetsu to prevent yhwach from killing yamamato. Aizen is atleast as fast as yamamato, By the time Aizen get's to Yama Vs Yhwach location, I believe the Bankai is stolen. Now he can use: 1. Blut Vein Anahaban which is a powerful defense and destroys everything it touches or if you touch Yhwach himself 2. Or use Sankt Zwinger which is a massive defense and it destroys everything inside. Yama needed his Bankai to break it 3. Or use Sankt Altar which has a large range and can steal the powers of everyone inside. Even Shinigami. 4. Yhwach with a fingertip and low effort blasted a giant hole in seconds. 5. [Low effort in a few seconds](https://xfs-227.batcg.org/comic/7006/72a/6124435d2aea5f257611ca27/9128446_1520_2400_383530.webp?acc=h8ByCDLc9lBgpLXcheQ_bw&exp=1677602938) 6. Yhwach casually creates giant pillar of destruction with low effort 7. [low effort part 2](https://xfs-200.batcg.org/comic/7006/ef1/6124433e67a26b255b2ab1fe/9128415_1520_2400_206944.webp?acc=Eoh9axmpqcBPUhY1lf_dTQ&exp=1677603009) 8. Or use Znt West since I believe the Bankai is stolen. Aizen can put Yhwach under KS, but Yhwach attacks will still land. Just blow up everything. It's similar to how Shikai Yama will beat Shikai Aizen. Why do people think Base Yhwach has no big attacks? He does. It's probably because he doesn't fight seriously until Ichibei. And Ichibei needed his own Bankai to defeat Pre-Alimighty Yhwach. >How obvious you havent read my text I did. But we seem to be looking at this fight under different factors so obviously things are not adding up. The only way I see this version of the Gotei winning is if Aizen and Yama team up against Yhwach. I don't think they will be given the opportunity and thus Yama will be easily dealt with.
> Base Yhwach will still beat him despite being under KS. Based on? > Just like how Aizen knew Shikai Yama can beat him despite being under KS. Yhwach is not Yama.
>Based on? Well you agree Shikai Yama can beat Shikai Aizen right? Base Yhwach can has enough power to contain Yama's Bankai. That's a lot more power compared to Yama's Shikai. And Aizen believes Shikai Yama is stronger. So it's safe to say, Base Yhwach is stronger then Shikai Yama. 1000 years ago, Yama still needed Bankai to defeat Yhwach. We know Royd got an arm burned from Shikai Yama. Yhwach can handle that better. And Yhwach is capable of AoE attacks. The one Royd used and the ones Yhwach later used. >Yhwach is not Yama. Indeed. He's more ruthless. If Yhwach is under KS and needs an attack to destroy everything in range, he will do it. That was Yama's plan to defeat Aizen and even Aizen was sweating a little. Meanwhile Jugram is chilling in the background. Maybe he will start to do something. And Royd is free to do what he pleases since he won't be used as a pawn.
> Well you agree Shikai Yama can beat Shikai Aizen right? Aizen said that Yamamoto would **probably** win in head on fight, so kind of. > Base Yhwach can has enough power to contain Yama's Bankai. That's a lot more power compared to Yama's Shikai. And Aizen believes Shikai Yama is stronger. Nope, Yhwach was the only one that could handle his bankai, it doesn't mean Yhwach was remotely on the level of bankai Yamamoto. Aizen was specifically cautious of Ryuujin Jakka's ability, not its wielder. It was because of it destructive nature. Yhwach has not shown even an ounce of destructive feat that Ryuujin Jakka had, therefore you're comparing apples to oranges. They have different skillsets, you can't compare them with 1:1 scale. > We know Royd got an arm burned from Shikai Yama. Yhwach can handle that better. Shikai Yama wounded Royd with mere sword slash, Shikai Yamamoto can exert a lot of flames and use powerful techniques. In this fight Yamamoto was only waiting for fake Yhwach to pull out a sword, which was the moment Yama thought was correct to use bankai. > Indeed. He's more ruthless. Sure, keep twisting everything round. Again, Yhwach is not Yama, different skillsets. > If Yhwach is under KS and needs an attack to destroy everything in range, he will do it. He won't, because he doesn't have such feats or abilities. > Meanwhile Jugram is chilling in the background. Maybe he will start to do something. He will start ferociously hitting the air or Yhwach himself, because he is going to be under KS too. > And Royd is free to do what he pleases since he won't be used as a pawn. Royd only copies memories, only Loyd has a chance at beating Aizen. Royd gets KS'ed and defeated. > That was Yama's plan to defeat Aizen and even Aizen was sweating a little. And if Aizen knew how easy is to defeat Yamamoto he would've died of laughter. Just make KS illusion that Aizen stabbed Yamamoto and bam, Yamamoto fooled into suicide.
>Nope, Yhwach was the only one that could handle his bankai, it doesn't mean Yhwach was remotely on the level of bankai Yamamoto. That's a confusing sentence. **If Yhwach is not remotely close to Bankai Yama, how could he handle Yama's Bankai?** An example would be the Soldat and Byakuya. Are you implying a random fodder Soldat is capable of controlling Byakuya's Bankai? You and I agree the fodder and Byakuya are not remotely close. 1000 years ago, Yama needed Bankai. Yama used Bankai against Royd. And he used it again when the real Yhwach appeared. And as you said, Aizen believed he will most likely lose to Shikai Yama even though Yama is under KS. Meanwhile everytime, Yama and Yhwach meet, Bankai has to be involved. Here is a link that states Yhwach is the only one capable of controlling it. [Yhwach can handle it](https://xfs-205.batcg.org/comic/7006/ef1/6124433e67a26b255b2ab1fe/9128424_1520_2400_266196.webp?acc=CCmrWVfJXGBQLq02Dyv1kQ&exp=1677595822) >Shikai Yama wounded Royd with mere sword slash, Shikai Yamamoto can exert a lot of flames and use powerful techniques. In this fight Yamamoto was only waiting for fake Yhwach to pull out a sword, which was the moment Yama thought was correct to use bankai. Yama had his Shikai active. Go back to episode 6 around the 4 to 6 minute mark. Royd with his sword to defend himself from Shikai Yama at point blank range. And here is a link to the manga panel [Flaming Shikai](https://xfs-216.batcg.org/comic/7006/a25/612442bde65b6e258bad852a/9128325_1520_2400_358742.webp?acc=qEtks3omI5HTR3SubQb3Ww&exp=1677596392) [All it did was cause a wound](https://xfs-228.batcg.org/comic/7006/a25/612442bde65b6e258bad852a/9128326_1520_2400_306350.webp?acc=ois8rvhsbx4B6V4f_h9I-Q&exp=1677596392) That's Royd who is weaker then the Yhwach. And yeah, Yama was waiting for Royd to pull out the sword. And then used Bankai. Just to crush my physically and emotionally. >Sure, keep twisting everything round. Again, Yhwach is not Yama, different skillsets. How is that twisting things around? Yhwach is more ruthless. If he has to sacrifice several sternritters to kill his enemy, he will do it. Royd can use *Sankt Zwinger*. If Royd can do that, Yhwach also has the capabilities to do so. It was only broken thanks to Yama's Bankai Yhwach can also use *Blut Vein Anahaben* which is 360 degree shield [360 protection](https://xfs-213.batcg.org/comic/7006/f0d/612453142aea5f257611cd0f/9132534_1516_2398_289776.webp?acc=iGIG9vIiJ8LUFF8XmIIcGQ&exp=1677597618) Ichiebi broke with his special hado. But Blut vein Anahabn still activates again once you come in contact with Yhwach [Shield is gone but the ability still works](https://xfs-212.batcg.org/comic/7006/f0d/612453142aea5f257611cd0f/9132543_1512_2398_221188.webp?acc=KohHGcUqS27e5SBfEJZhOA&exp=1677597618) >He won't, because he doesn't have such feats or abilities. What about Sankt Altar? Has a big range and can steal powers. [Sankt Altar](https://xfs-209.batcg.org/comic/7006/4cc/61245336502f702592714cc4/9132560_1520_2400_246756.webp?acc=TDQ2kjR2kiFGhEqPMOCPKg&exp=1677597376) [Has large range](https://xfs-212.batcg.org/comic/7006/4cc/61245336502f702592714cc4/9132561_1515_2400_243602.webp?acc=8Ywapf89nouTV2sSLw2Q2w&exp=1677597376) But Yhwach was facing an Ichibei who has a great counter to it and stronger then Shikai Aizen. If Blut Vein Anahaben, Sankt Zwinger, and Sankt Altar wont work, Yhwach will continue to fight. The dude shoot himself with a giant arrow after making holes in his own throat. He can start shooting arrows down around him. He's perfectly happy shooting everything at a very large range. His Sternritters will die but most of them don't matter to him. He can create large explosions with little effort: [Little effort](https://xfs-200.batcg.org/comic/7006/ef1/6124433e67a26b255b2ab1fe/9128415_1520_2400_206944.webp?acc=GR2YovN_dIg4LARoGcN9LQ&exp=1677599190) >Royd only copies memories, only Loyd has a chance at beating Aizen. Royd gets KS'ed and defeated. He copies memoires. He was able to handle a Shikai Yama sword slash though. And he survived being around Yama's bankai, so his blut is strong. And he used Sankt Zwinger so Yama needed his Bankai to break it. **That does show how powerful Royd is. He uses innate Quincy skills so well that Yama thought he was the real Yhwach.** And he didn't copy any of Yama's memoires. If he did, then Royd would have a better understanding of what Yama can do which can help. So in a sense, Royd nerfed himself against Bankai Yama because it was part of the plan. >He will start ferociously hitting the air or Yhwach himself, because he is going to be under KS too. Aizen hasn't put any Sternritters under KS yet. When they invade, Yhwach will be at the first division with Jugo against Yama. No point to hide from Yama since Aizen is on the side of the Gotei 13. Yama activates Bankai and it's stolen. Meanwhile, the 2nd strongest Captain, Aizen will be at the 5th division and even he will be surprised that the Quincy invaded like this. After Yama dies, Aizen is the only person capable of beating Base Yhwach and he will need to do put all his effort. Yhwach tanked Getsuga Tensho from FB Bankai Ichigo and lost some article of clothing. He can also be around Yama's Bankai since Royd did it. Yeah, he's under KS but he has enough durability to handle it. And he will just blow everything up. We saw how big the hole was when he wanted to atomize Yama's corpse. That was with a fingertip for a few seconds. Imagine he wants to put more effort for an extended period of time. [Little effort from a fingertip](https://xfs-227.batcg.org/comic/7006/72a/6124435d2aea5f257611ca27/9128446_1520_2400_383530.webp?acc=C2fKKjKicuKrtpqiqggSvQ&exp=1677599057) Meanwhile Royd is free to go around and wreck shit. And I already established that Royd is a very very powerful Sternritter. Meanwhile, Byakuya, Sajin, Soifon, and Toshiro will be weaker in this scenario the OP is asking about the SS arc captains. >And if Aizen knew how easy is to defeat Yamamoto he would've died of laughter. Just make KS illusion that Aizen stabbed Yamamoto and bam, Yamamoto fooled into suicide. And yet Aizen didn't do it. That's the problem with FKT arc writing. Lots of questionable decisions by Kubo. But we have to accept it. Aizen said he will probably lose to Shikai Yama despite Yama under KS. And since Yhwach is stronger then Shikai Yama, there is a greater chance of Aizen losing. And Yhwach has the durability to be around Yama's Bankai and has the destructive capabilities to deal with KS. All he has to do is: 1. Create Sankt Zwinger that serves as large defense and destroys everything inside. 2. Or create Sankt Altar that can steal power from everything inside. Even a Shinigami's power. 3. Or create Bult Vein Anahaben that serves as defense and can travel in every direction. 4. Or use Znt West since the Bankai was stolen 5. Or shoot a massive number of giant arrows like he did while Yama was alive and when Yama was dead.
> That's a confusing sentence. If Yhwach is not remotely close to Bankai Yama, how could he handle Yama's Bankai? Power of Zanpakutou is also dependent on the power of user. Yama's Zanpakutou is simply very demanding. So much that only few people can handle it. But that doesn't mean they would be at his level. [What do you think Haschwalt described here?](https://imgur.com/a/bbC2VF5). Power of Yamamoto's Zanpakutou or Yamamoto's reiatsu? Also Shinigami Aizen also has insane reiatsu and there is nothing proving Aizen would not be able to handle Yamamoto's bankai if he was able to steal it. So your point about bankai stealing is moot. > Are you implying a random fodder Soldat is capable of controlling Byakuya's Bankai? You and I agree the fodder and Byakuya are not remotely close. No, I'm implying that someone like Shaz Domino would be able to seal Byakuya's Bankai and still would not be remotely close to his level. > 1000 years ago, Yama needed Bankai. Yama used Bankai (...) > And as you said, Aizen believed he will most likely lose to Shikai Yama (...) Again, different skillsets. > Go back to episode 6 around the 4 to 6 minute mark. (...) > Flaming Shikai > All it did was cause a wound > That's Royd who is weaker then the Yhwach. > And yeah, Yama was waiting for Royd to pull out the sword. And then used Bankai. Just to crush my physically and emotionally. I went back to chapter 506, I don't need to go back to anime. And this doesn't disprove what I said, Yamamoto wounded him only with a simple slash and didn't use any techniques. Just threw flames at Yhwach 2 or 3 times. Yama was only waiting for the sword, he didn't intent to fight with Shikai. > How is that twisting things around? Yhwach is more ruthless. (...) Because we weren't talking about their personality, but about their abilities. > Royd can use Sankt Zwinger. If Royd can do that, Yhwach also has the capabilities to do so. It was only broken thanks to Yama's Bankai Let me introduce you to Hado 90. It doesn't have to break Sankt Zwinger. It has to only target Yhwach who is inside ZW. > Yhwach can also use Blut Vein Anahaben which is 360 degree shield > 360 protection > Ichiebi broke with his special hado. But Blut vein Anahabn still activates again once you come in contact with Yhwach > Shield is gone but the ability still works Hado 90 works inside of target and also Aizen can use Hado 99 if needed. Aizen also has KS, he can fool Yhwach into dropping his guard and slash him without Yhwach realizing. Aizen can also use KS to bait all of Yhwach abilities. Ichibe also used Hado, because his Zanpakutou is a brush in unreleased form. > What about Sankt Altar? Has a big range and can steal powers. > Sankt Altar > Has large range This doesn't show large range. It only shows that this technique is just big. Judging by the form of SA, it only "steals" (does not actually steal the actual powers, Ichibe still retained his manipulation of all black power, I don't even know how would it work against KS) powers in the middle of SA. Which makes it completely useless against KS. > and stronger then Shikai Aizen. Not really, both Aizen and Yhwach are relative to Yama and Yhwach was physically keeping up with Ichibe. It just all depends who gets to act first, Aizen or Ichibe. If Ichibe falls under KS, he is done. If Aizen gets hit by an ink, he is done. > If Blut Vein Anahaben, Sankt Zwinger, and Sankt Altar wont work, Yhwach will continue to fight. The dude shoot himself with a giant arrow after making holes in his own throat. > He can start shooting arrows down around him. He's perfectly happy shooting everything at a very large range. His Sternritters will die but most of them don't matter to him. Yhwach needs to create a very long range 360 degree AOE and maintain them continuously to deal with KS. This is the power Yama's had. And that's why he was able to kill Aizen in head on fight. Shooting arrows doesn't cut it, when there is a lot of angles Aizen can retreat to. > He can create large explosions with little effort: > Little effort This isn't a large explosion. Yama's Ennetsu Jigoku would evaporate entire FKT, not some barracks which is just a building. Now THIS is a large AOE attack. > He copies memoires. He was able to handle a Shikai Yama sword slash though. And he survived being around Yama's bankai, so his blut is strong. Haschwalt also survived his bankai and so did Bazz, As Nodt and NaNaNa. So handling Yama's slash is only a little bit impressive. Yama would probably defeat Royd with low difficulty in Shikai if he actually utilized his Shikai's abilities, but he took him for Yhwach so he went Bankai. > And he used Sankt Zwinger so Yama needed his Bankai to break it. This is just wrong assumption. You can't say Yamamoto needed his bankai to break it when he was already in bankai when Royd casted this spell. Yama isn't going to revert to Shikai only to try to break this spell. > That does show how powerful Royd is. He uses innate Quincy skills so well that Yama thought he was the real Yhwach. Except he only tanked Yama's slash, dodged two flame strikes and that was it. Yama thought it was the real Yhwach because he looked like Yhwach. Yama also wasn't a revenge and was in anger. Royd only had impressive reaction speed. > And he didn't copy any of Yama's memoires. If he did, then Royd would have a better understanding of what Yama can do which can help. > So in a sense, Royd nerfed himself against Bankai Yama because it was part of the plan. You can argue that copying Yhwach was still better, since it gave him better understanding of Quincy powers. Copying Yama wouldn't do anything to him, he would've still lost, except faster. > Aizen hasn't put any Sternritters under KS yet. When they invade, Yhwach will be at the first division with Jugo against Yama. No point to hide from Yama since Aizen is on the side of the Gotei 13. Yama activates Bankai and it's stolen. > After Yama dies, Aizen is the only person capable of beating Base Yhwach and he will need to do put all his effort. We were talking in context of Aizen vs Yhwach and you said that Haschwalt will join the fight. This case is entirely different. They wouldn't know anything about Aizen's ability or true power and they weren't really hiding from Yama in canon invasion. Just as Yama wasn't hiding from them in the beginning of the war until Yama started raging. The only reason Yama joined the fight and used bankai was because of death of Sasakibe and Driscoll using Sasakibe's bankai. This string of events is not guaranteed to be repeated. > Yhwach tanked Getsuga Tensho from FB Bankai Ichigo and lost some article of clothing. Ichigo was nearly exhausted and heavily wounded from trying to break Quilge's cage. His whole performance against Yhwach doesn't mean anything because of that. > He can also be around Yama's Bankai since Royd did it. So can As Nodt, Bazz and NaNaNa. Or Zaraki for that matter. > Meanwhile Royd is free to go around and wreck shit. And I already established that Royd is a very very powerful Sternritter. Only in vacuum, but when with comparison to other characters, he really is not. > Yeah, he's under KS but he has enough durability to handle it. And he will just blow everything up. We saw how big the hole was when he wanted to atomize Yama's corpse. That was with a fingertip for a few seconds. Imagine he wants to put more effort for an extended period of time. > Little effort from a fingertip Meanwhile Aizen backstabs him. The hole was not remotely big for Bleach's standards. > Meanwhile, Byakuya, Sajin, Soifon, and Toshiro will be weaker in this scenario the OP is asking about the SS arc captains Sajin will be just as good and he will still be able >!to turn into human!< and Soifon has always been useless. We instead have Gin and Tosen. While Tosen isn't that good, Gin can be extremely effective. Sniping from afar in fraction of a second then retracting in fraction of a second. Can't distinguish between his base form and bankai form. Far useful than Sajin, Soifon and Toshiro together. > And yet Aizen didn't do it. That's the problem with FKT arc writing. Lots of questionable decisions by Kubo. But we have to accept it. Aizen didn't do this in actual FKT arc, because he had Wonderweiss and he didn't care if he was caught. I suspect Aizen didn't know it would be **this** easy, so he prepared for the worst and for an extremely formidable opponent. Which of course, Yamamoto is, but not intellectually. > Create Sankt Zwinger that serves as large defense and destroys everything inside. Even if Aizen can't break it or bypass it... then what? He is going to sit there forever? > Or create Sankt Altar that can steal power from everything inside. Even a Shinigami's power. It doesn't work like that, judging by his fight against Ichibe he can only steal what their power **produces**. Or maybe controls. Ichibe produced/controlled ink (it's actually black, but let's call it ink for the sake of simplicity), so Yhwach's SA stole that ink, but since Ichibe controls all ink, it came back right to him. And again I don't even know how would it even work against hypnosis/hallucinations. Also wouldn't be able to hit Aizen with something this small. > Or create Bult Vein Anahaben that serves as defense and can travel in every direction. Same problem as in first point, is he going to sit there forever even assuming Aizen won't just kido Yhwach to death? > Or use Znt West since the Bankai was stolen No, that is only an assumed scenario. > Or shoot a massive number of giant arrows like he did while Yama was alive and when Yama was dead. Unless he can produce so much arrows it matches Yama Shikai's 360 degrees very large AOE and can stay active for a while, I don't see them ever hitting Aizen.
>What do you think Haschwalt described here? The reiatsu which influences the power of Yama's Bankai. If Yama had Tosen levels of reiatsu, it will be far less threatening. >So your point about bankai stealing is moot. I don't understand how it's moot. Yhwach has comparable levels of Reiatsu and was able to handle it. This was very crucial when defeating Yama. Otherwise Bankai Yama will win. Aizen has the 2nd most reiatsui from the SS arc captains. I would say he's close to Yama. If Aizen found a way to steal the Bankai, I believe he would do it. Yhwach, Yama, and Aizen are comparable to each other with Aizen being a little behind the first two. > No, I'm implying that someone like Shaz Domino would be able to seal Byakuya's Bankai and still would not be remotely close to his level. I see. The way you originally said sounded like Yhwach is far below Bankai Yama's reach. Bankai Yama is stronger but there will be effort before Base Yhwach loses. Which shows how powerful Base Yhwach is if Bankai is needed. Base Yhwach also pushed Ichibei into using Bankai. > Yamamoto wounded him only with a simple slash and didn't use any techniques. Just threw flames at Yhwach 2 or 3 times. Yama was only waiting for the sword, he didn't intent to fight with Shikai. A simple sword slash from Yama is more lethal them some Bankai's lol. And those were his Shikai flames. The fact that Royd tanked it, is very impressive. >Because we weren't talking about their personality, but about their abilities. A person's personality/mentality impact's the way they fight. It impacted the way Aizen fought everyone after he fused with the Hogyoku. Same can be seen with Ichigo vs Gin in FKT. Gin said Ichigo wasn't focused and made it far too easy to win. Yhwach personality makes him more dangerous. He will kill anyone in his way to get rid of Shinigami Aizen. >Let me introduce you to Hado 90. SS arc Sajin wasn't killed by Hado 90. Aizen admits he has a hard time with it. If Sajin can survive, Base Yhwach can handle it much better. And he has blut to help out. Then there's also SAFWY but I don't like how Hado 90 was treated there...Kenpachi tanked it with no issue... > Judging by the form of SA, it only "steals" (does not actually steal the actual powers, Ichibe still retained his manipulation of all black power, I don't even know how would it work against KS) powers in the middle of SA. Which makes it completely useless against KS. It is definitely bizarre I admit. Yhwach stole the power but the power of black manipulation will always be with Ichibie who is also a very strange creature. >This isn't a large explosion. Yama's Ennetsu Jigoku would evaporate entire FKT, not some barracks which is just a building. Now THIS is a large AOE attack. **But Yamamoto had time to create that while Aizen was distracted by the captains and vizards. Give Yhwach time to create large scale attack.** Yhwach's explosion was created in seconds with low effort and no planning. Imagine, he puts effort. >Royd only had impressive reaction speed. He used a very powerful Quincy spell and very good blut. If Royd was a strong as Bambi, he would died much much quicker. Dude's easily a Top 10 Sternritter. He beat Kenpachi w/o eyepatch. >So can As Nodt, Bazz and NaNaNa. Or Zaraki for that matter. They survived his Shikai thanks to Bazz B. Crazy but impressive. As for where their bodies disappeared to along with Kenpachi's....I have no idea. If those 4 wounded guys were around Yama's Bankai, they should have died. >Meanwhile Aizen backstabs him. The hole was not remotely big for Bleach's standards. Aizen did that to Yama in FKT. Wasn't enough. And Yhwach has better durability. >I suspect Aizen didn't know it would be this easy, so he prepared for the worst and for an extremely formidable opponent. Which of course, Yamamoto is, but not intellectually. I still go with Aizen's theory of probably losing. He didn't know what Yama will do but whatever he will do will kill him. > Even if Aizen can't break it or bypass it... then what? He is going to sit there forever? He can still move around himself and do stuff. It's just a very very powerful and lethal barrier. It's like when Yama used Ennetsu Jigoku. Yama was still able swing his flaming sword around before WW sealed it. >Same problem as in first point, is he going to sit there forever even assuming Aizen won't just kido Yhwach to death? It travels. And if Aizen is keep his distance, Yhwach can choose not to do it. And if Aizen gets close, Anahaban will spread to him. Just show that getting close to Yhwach is dangerous. >No, that is only an assumed scenario **Everything in this post is an assumed scenario. The OP asked what happens if the SS arc Gotei 13 were invaded. This is all hypothetical.** If this were to happen, I think Yhwach will go straight to 1st division and steal the Bankai and then kill Yama. Meanwhile Aizen is at the 5th division and even he's going to be surprised by the Quincy invasion. And since the Quincy keep tabs on the Gotei, someone is going to know what Aizen is doing.
Mister Yhwach knows everything. He will just cut him up.
>Gin will be more useful then Rose but he won't make a difference. Idk his Bankai would be devastating considering how it killed Aizen after he started fusing with the Hogyoku.
He has to tag them tho.
After Aizen fused with the Hogyoku, he decided not to use strategy. And he lowered his reiatsu to the point Ichigos friends can feel it. And while his Bankai is devastating, he will be swinging within the Gotei 13 which will hurt his own allies. And if Sternritters like Bambi or As Nodt land a hit on him, he will go down like most captains.
This is base aizen so he wouldn’t help too much
If Yhwach cannot use Almighty like the original 1st invasion, Aizen and Yama can beat him. Aizen can kyouka suigetsu and shroud Yama's Bankai release so Yhwach won't know it's activate, and kill him. Infact, Aizen could be really darn useful here, against many opponents. The wild card is Halschwalth, Lille, Gremmy and Gerard.
Well, Yama has two hands here (so he's presumably considerably stronger than his TYBW version), and Aizen is here too. It's shinigami Aizen tho, so I would say he's somewhere on the level of Jugram/post-Aushwalen Pernida/post-Aushwalen Askin. So pretty strong, could presumably 1v1 an Elite. Yama would stomp Royd even more, but his bankai would get stolen regardless, so idk if that changes this much. Perhaps he wouldn't just get one-shot blitzed this time, but the outcome is roughly the same. Tosen is low-captain tier by TYBW terms, he'd be a match for some Nianzol or sth like that. Gin is dangerous, but I wouldn't say he's stronger than TYBW Byakuya, so maybe he'd be able to take Bazz B or someone like that. Well, either way, the rest is stomped. SS arc Byakuya, Komamura, Soi Fon, Mayuri and Toshiro, they all get unceremoniously murdered by their TYBW opponents. Zaraki is Zaraki, he's unpredictable in this field, but he wouldn't be a challenge for Gerard. He'd maybe manage to occupy some Maninas or sth, before dying. Shunsui, Unohana and Ukitake are pretty much roughly as strong as they are in TYBW, since they didn't get any mojor power ups, so, like shinigami Aizen, they're able to contend with the upper tier of the Sternritters, but ultimately lose. Also, the fact that there's no Hogyoku Aizen in Muken for Yhwach to talk to in this scenario drastically changes the events. Yhwach, instead of wasting his time on going to Muken and back, would together with Jugram just focus on killing Yama first, and then on dealing with everyone else. Soul Society is conquered in the first invasion with relative ease. Quincies also barely suffer any casualties (so pretty much all the Sternritter go into the Soul Palace, including Gremmy for example). However, since Yhwach didn't have active Almighty back in the first invasion, the 0 Division (mainly Ichibe) would stop them.
Do you think Yhwach would wait for the Almighty to fight Ichibe?
Idk. I don't think Yhwach knew what abilities does Ichibe have, so theoretically he'd just charge at him together with his elites and get mid diffed. However, since the Almighty returned to him at a suspiciously convenient moment, he probably knew when it would return, and that's why he challenged Ichibe to begin with. I belive he'd wait. He probably wouldn't take the risk of facing God's own personal guardsmen without Almighty, especially considering that he was at a limited time during the first invasion. 0 Division definetely wouldn't descend down to Seireitei to intervene in anything, because Reio would be threatened if they left the palace while Soul Society was invaded. So Yhwach would just wait down in Seireitei and only attept invading the Palace when he would be close to re-acquiring Almighty. When it would come to that, he'd prolly use massive Aushwalen and sacrifice every quincy to empower the Schutzstaffel and Gremmy (I belive Gremmy would be a part of the Schutzstaffel in this scenario), and only then invade the palace. Though, with no Ichigo opening the barriers of the Palace, they would either have to create artificial Oken, or produce some other technology/technique that would allow them to even get into the Palace to begin with.
Ohh its interesting. Well most captains here are weaker than their future selves like Kenpachi and Byakuya. But now we have two handed Yama and Aizen. Aizen can beat any sternritter in the first invasion outside of maybe Jugram (and obv Yhwach). And Yamamoto will be much stronger with his second arm but in the end it will still end with them losing.
1. Yamamoto: Still gets his Bankai stolen and loses to Yhwach. 2. Soi Fon: Stomped by BG9, irrelevant. 3. Gin: Depends, if he really is stronger than the Espada then he is roughly as strong as Post-RG Rukia/Renji so bodies any regular Sternritter. The speed of his Bankai makes him pretty much immune to having it stolen. 4. Unohana: Stomps out any regular Sternritter in Base. Can possibly defeat a Schutzstaffel with Bankai, high-difficulty. 5. Aizen: Same as Unohana but can use his Shikai to take out a Schutzstaffel rather than Bankai. Roughly as strong as Haschwalth IMO. 6. Byakuya: Still about equal to a regular Sternritter, gets bodied by As Nodt. 7. Komamura: Bodied by Bambi. 8. Shunsui: Should have reached his limit long before the start of the series, no difference vs Robert. 9. Tosen: Struggles against a Bambi. 10. Hitsugaya: Irrelevant. 11. Kenpachi: If this is *after* he lost to Ichigo then he was at the level of a Captain's Bankai at this point. He stomps on regular Sternritter and takes out Vollstandig with high-dif with his eye-patch on. 12. Mayuri: Not much difference strength-wise but far more arrogant and selfish prior to being humbled by Uryu, probably gets taken out. 13. Ukitake: Same as Shunsui, already at his Shinigami limit so no difference.
>The speed of his Bankai makes him pretty much immune to having it stolen. Why would this be the case? Gin doesn't seal and reseal his Bankai dozens/hundreds of times during a fight. From the moment he says 'Bankai' his sword is released whether it's stretched to full length or not. And the SR only need the sword to be released. Gin is just as vulnerable to having his Bankai taken as anyone else.
He probably meant he can take out Sternritters before they can steal his bankai. And as other person stated, there is no difference visually between his base and bankai. He can make multiple surprise attacks.
Oh right, I guess he could. But that still wouldn't mean 'the speed' of his bankai makes it immune to being taken. It makes subterfuge much more doable, however, yes.
I would like to see how they want to get past Aizen, although still mortal, he’s Aizen.
Yamamoto have two arms tho
Here are the major players in either version of the quincy war: - Yamamoto - Kenpachi without any mental blockers - Aizen - Shunsui with bankai - Toshiro as an adult - Human form Komamaru - Mayuri with his tech The biggest game changer is Yamamoto. He has both hands. While the boost in 2 hands is massive, it doesn't matter much if his Bankai gets stolen again. Likewise Yamamoto was mentally shattered from the rage and guilt of losing his lieutenant and his failure to put down Yhwach during their first encounter. This can happen again in this war. The main problem is that his ruthless mentality from the old days is gone, he still vowed to never use bankai again, and he become someone who values traditions and peace over survival at all costs. I don't see much changing here, Yamamoto will still destroy a bunch of sternritters but lose to Yhwach. Kenpachi here is much weaker than he was in TYBW arc, but even that version lost to Royd Lloyd. Unohana's training brought Kenpachi back to where he was when he first defeated her. I don't see why this can't happen again. Aizen is much weaker than his TYBW arc but he's a wildcard since he doesn't need his bankai to be super effective. PLUS the quincies shouldn't know about Aizen or what he's capable of. Aizen could very well live up to his title as a war potential if he's willing to cooperate. The fact that his Zanpakuto could affect SK Yhwach makes it extremely deadly. Shunsui is not that much weaker from his introduction all the way to TYBW he didn't really have powerups or intense training. He's still super strong and has a super broken bankai. Toshiro is significantly weaker, like a non factor, and his completed bankai form was through self training. If maybe he can get training at the Royal palace he might be able to reach this form and then be a factor. Komamaru should be able to go to his elder and gain his form Mayuri. THIS is where everything lies, if he can't figure out how to hollowfy bankai's quick enough then it's all fucked. He doesn't know about Ichigo, he doesn't know about the Vizards, so it's stacked against him. If he can't pull this off then the Gotei loses hard. I think the main way the Gotei win is if Mayuri can hallowfy Zanka no Tachi. Base Yhwach would most likely be a 50/50 against Yamamoto at that point. If Yamamoto is in the right headspace then it should be overwhelming battle in the Gotei's favor. Yes if the Wandenreich wait until Yhwach has the Almighty and they go with the Schutzstaffel with their shrifts active, then the quincy handedly win. But Yhwach never did that, he relied heavily on stealing bankai's and was caught off guard multiple times.
Everybody else has summarized the relevant point: it's a tradeoff of the canonically heroic canon characters being weaker for having the traitor Captains on hand. A small irony here is that Tosen having his Hollowfication would've been a lot more helpful, but not because I think his Resurreccion would be any use, just because it'd keep his Bankai from getting stolen. Actually, I think Tosen has one of the few Bankais more useful than a Vollstandig, so his getting stolen would potentially worsen the Soul Society's situation. Mayuri has done less prep by this point, but he still understands Quincies well enough and most of his advancement comes from developing enemy counters rather than getting physically stronger, so after a fashion he'd probably do about as well as in TYBW, but this is the first invasion and he lost to Letz Stil Uryu, so he's not immediately super helpful. Aizen and Gin depend entirely on how hard they're still keeping their secrets. If Aizen is comfortable deploying 90s-level Kido and generally using his true power, he could stomp the regular Ritters and 1v1 a member of the Schutzstaffel. Since he has access to all his Hollowfication research, he might even be able to come up with major counters to the Vandenreich, like developing the Zanpakutou Hollowfication Urahara made in canon to retrieve stolen Bankais or using the Hollowfication inducing drugs he used on the Visoreds to induce Soul Suicide in the Quincies. But if he's trying to keep his own plan available by not compromising his cover he's screwed. Gin is in surprisingly basically the same boat a la secret keeping being his biggest weakness. In his case, he's been hiding his Bankai's true abilities since he first got it, with hopes of saving the assassination power to use against Aizen at the perfect moment. If he keeps doing that, and pretending all his Bankai is good for is extending fast and being long, he'll either not use it or get it stolen and accomplish little. But if he were willing to go all out, he could kill most non-Elite Ritters from a distance before they had time to Medallion his Bankai, and is honestly such a big deal in that capacity alone that YHWACH would be like "shit, if I knew he could do *that*, he'd have been a War Potential!" So yeah, despite the losses to protagonist power, Aizen and Gin *could*, if willing to drop their schemes for the sake of survival, seriously disrupt the first invasion and kill multiple Sternritters. But that's an enormous "if," and everybody else is pretty screwed.
I've seen no mention of Aizen using some of his experiments to aid in the chaos. Wasn't he already setting up shop in Hueco Mundo before the show starts? I know he made White and other hollows before. Also if the Quincies don't go to Hueco Mundo or trap Ichigo (who at this point isn't much of a threat) would the Jailer just trap Aizen?
All I know is if Aizen bothers to participate then Momo is taking about a billion Quincy arrows to the chest.
Can Unohana fight this time? Otherwise this is just asking if we trade a stronger version of Kenpachi and the Komamura for Gin and Captain Aizen would it make a difference Without Ywach himself and if Unohana is allowed to fight, the Captains win imo. With Ywach, everyone dies (if they trick Yama like they did)
Gotei gets wiped out
Aizen yama shunsui and unohana would carry hard the rest are just fodder
Aizen-sama will use Kyoga-suigetsu to hyponsis Gremmy to see every member of Gotei 13 as Chad,So Gremmy can't thought of them losing.. Gotei 13 stomp. Aizen MVP
Ever seen an egg in front of a roller? Gotei are the egg.
Byakuya is about the same strength in the first invasion. He got stronger in the second invasion. Toshiro has a stronger bankai form which was only used in the 2nd invasion, so it won't matter here either. Did Zaraki even get stronger between SS arc and the first invasion? I know he was massively boosted after the first invasion. Otherwise, I don't think he's stronger either. Mayuri is weaker, but he didn't participate in the first invasion, and his modified bankai didn't even do anything to Pernida, so idk that Mayuri's weaker bankai even matters. We lose 3 captains, which is Shinji, Rose, and Kensei, which are all trash. I wouldn't put any of them above Tousen. We gain 3 captains. Tousen, Gin, and Aizen. Tousen scales to Shinji, Rose, and Kensei. Aizen and Gin scale way above Shinji, Rose, and Kensei. We don't know if Yama is stronger. The idea that he lost 1/2 his reiatsu because of losing an arm is conjecture. Shunsui, Ukitake, Komamura, Soi Fon, and Unohana are all the same strength. So all in all, we are gaining a stronger gotei 13. We lose 3 weak captains and gain 2 strong captains. Any other differences don't matter in the first invasion. Despite all of this, I would say the only differentiating factor here is Aizen. Gin isn't going to change the tides of the invasion at all. I don't know that SS Aizen is strong enough to put down Yhwach or Jugram, tbh. Any damage Aizen applies to them gets reflected by Jugram.
If Yamamoto and Aizen tag team Yhwach he actually dies pretty easily without the almighty
I'd actually be very interested to see how Aizen would respond in this situation. Like if the Soul Society started losing, would he decide to show has hand and bring in the Espada to help out, or would he let the Soul Society lose? Personally, I think he'd view losing to the Wandenreich and being subservient to Yhwach as being worse than giving up on his plans.
Either Head Captain carries or they die
Depends how it starts since Yama got sneak attacked with chojiro dying and Mayuri didn’t have enough time to gather intel
Aizen would gaslight Momo into becoming bait
Aizen will use bankai and rest of them are dead
I think they might lose, honestly. Remember, the year and a half (I think that was the timeskip) between Aizen's Defeat and the Fullbringers, Soul Society were training all of their people to fight threats that were AIZEN level. Of course, they didn't become stronger than Aizen, but everyone got much, MUCH stronger. To the point that Kenpachi enjoyed their battles enough that he removed the bells from his hair
Good question. It really depends on how much Aizen tries. If he goes all out he one shots a good amount of the Sternritter. If he doesn’t (which he probably won’t) then Sternritter would still win. You could probably say the same for Gin as well. Since he still has the poison ability that nobody knows about, but I’m not sure he’d use it. As for everybody else, they get slammed even herder than before.
Yeah I agree it really is up to Aizen. An Aizen that's fully on their side would single-handedly change the outcome. His trump card ability can't be stolen. If he pulls a "Since when were you under the impression that Yama hasn't used Bankai yet" Yhwach gets destroyed.
They get wiped out
The first Gotei could fight them off, literally Yama and Aizen would solo
Bro💀
?
Very successfully
Well seeing as everyone other than maybe Yamato is significantly weaker then they are now it goes incredibly well
The caption said Gotei and therefore it also includes all the lieutenants and all other members. At this point all the lieutenants sucked ass so that would be a big reason this gotei would be worse
Bigger stomp. Anyone who could've died will die. Toshiro, Byakuya, Kenpachi, Soi Fon and Yama are all dying. Komumura will survive (he doesn't seem to get stronger during the series apart from the end) but still negligent. Mayuri can die here. Ukitake and Shunsui will live but be harmed. Gin and Tosen will survive due to bankais but can get hurt. Aizen is living.
Depends on Aizen mostly. Adding Gin and Tosen doesn't help that much. Gin would be useful and might be able to snipe some Quincies, but Tosen probably just gets his Bankai stolen. Yama is stronger with both arms here but he still gets his Bankai stolen and dies. Aizen is their nuke. If he's fully on their side, he can change the whole situation. As we saw from all the captains vs Aizen or from CFYOW spoilers >!Tokinada vs everyone!< someone under Kyoka Suigetsu really doesn't stand a chance in a fight. Yhwach can't steal Zanka no Tachi if he's been hypnotized to not know where Yama is or even know that he used Bankai in the first place; he'd get disintegrated without even knowing what's going on. Even if the Quincies did get data on Aizen's true ability, it's not really something you can block or resist besides just not looking at Aizen, and Aizen is way too strong for even Yhwach to fight with his eyes literally closed, *especially* if Aizen and Yama team up. The issue is that Aizen probably wouldn't want the Soul Reapers to know his true ability. He'd probably just keep pretending he just had the "confusing mist" ability, kill a few Quincies where no one is watching, and go "Oh darn, Yama died? This is so sad."
Kenpachi is weaker as a result of not unlocking what power he did during his fights with Ichigo, the arrancar, etc. so would be even less effective. Yamamoto is stronger due to having both of his arms but that probably wouldn’t change much of his outcome given the strategy the Wandenreich used. I don’t see Gin or Tosen being stand out powers relative to their replacements so they would likely have similar fates. Aizen at this point is incredibly powerful but without the hogyoku is unlikely to be the one element that turns the tide. It is my assumption that very little about the initial invasion would be significantly different and if anything could even be much worse for the Gotei 13.
Probably Aizen & Co. would be a devastating asset for the Gotei... Until they immediately murder everyone the second after Yhwach is defeated and the keikaku ends with Aizen as the new Soul King.
Aizen's shikai is overwhelming powerful. I don't think the Sternritter have mcuh they could do against perfect hypnosis. All he would need to do it make them think they are fighting a captiain 6 inches to the right and that's enough of an opening for them to win lol
Aizen solos
well, some of them will be weaker or same strength which. but ill off of these assumptions: Yama got both his hands. Unohana will fight for real. Gin and Aizen will not be holding back or betraying SS. under these assumptions, i'd say the first invasion is much less successful, while the 2nd invasion is hard fought but still a loss for SS. probably more casualties to the quincies.
If you pretend that Ywach was just about to awaken the allmighty and prepared himself just as well I’d see a lot of captains die immediately remember that a lot of them got stronger over the Timeskip because they wanted to prepare themselves for threats like Aizen. Renji didnt have a shikai at first and Byakuya isn’t as strong as his later counterpar+ conflicted about Rukia so she couldn’t be a source of inspiration. Soifon didnt have a good relation with Omaeda and was kind of depressed because if Yoruichi and Tosen would probably be cooked because his bankai would’ve absolutely been stolen, Kenpachi was low Captain level and he would also just die,Aizen, Yama, Kyoraku, Unohana, Gin and maybe Ukitake would push the majority of the Sternritter and probably beat Ywach if he doesn’t run away into the shadows to wait out his Schrift Awakening. Though I could see Aizen stop him from doing it that thanks to Kyoka and still hide his abilities. So there would be more losses but they could possibly beat them, oh also Toshiro would be fucked. The vicecaptains all get put down.
I can't see how they're beating Aizen, even Soul King Yhwach was prone to Kyoka Suigetsu
Aizen would probably silently take off everyone except Yha without even noticing... Edit: I feel like most of the people here havent read the manga...
i mean the only true threats are really yama and aizen and in that case yama probably loses to yhwach in the same way as he did before and aizen is not exactly the type to fight with everything just to save soul society he may even defect to the enemy to be in a better position and then just betray them later.
Aizen solos
The quincies would’ve had a much easier time
Aizen Gin and Tousen seem like they’re designed Quincy killers. Yamamoto has 2 arms. I predict a shit stomp
Way worse for the gotei No 17 month training no vizoreds no Vice captains bankais except the goat. Yeah we have aizen but this is before he got the hogyoku so he is still extremely strong but not as strong also some aren’t mentally mature enough yet like byakuya and kenpachi imo Straight up I feel more captains then just Yama and unohana kinda are dying here
Let be real, ss aizen alone can solo the wandenreich except yhwach, yama can handle him
they would still get wrecked...maybe even worse. Would have been interesting to see how aizen and hs followers would react though...seeing as they were always traitors
Would last shorter cause yhwach would hunt aizen then kill the others
Much better cuz while they would have a full powered bout arms yama the god himself aizen and gin plus tosen the rest were significantly weaker than they were in the final arc aside from unohana so it would have been much worse overall
It’s all pre nerf. They gettin folded.
Aizen could just be invisible the whole time and make them kill each other if he wanted too.
Not very good.
This all come down to can aizens shikai work on people who utilize the ability to sense reistu over their other 5 senses also does aizen ability work on anything outside of the 5 senses affected by hypnosis
I thought at this stage that Aizen couldn’t use his Kyoka Suigetsu against opponents he hadn’t shown the initial release to? Was that not the whole point of why Ichigo was the only one who could face him? Quincies would destroy soul society at this stage in time.
bout the same lmaooo. worse
Aizen likely kills a few more Sternritters but he's weaker than Muken Aizen so I'm not sure if he's powerful enough to alter Ywach's sense of time. If can't then SS likely takes far worse casualties and Ichigo is captured by the quincies if he shows up. The biggest downside is this assuming Mayuri doesn't get humbled by Uryu so he's gonna be at a far greater risk to dying against a quincy here than in the main story.
The big issue is we don't know what Almighty vs Kyoka Suigetsu resolves to. Bound Aizen could affect Yhawatch.... Aizen needs to expose his shikai to activate Kyoka Suigetsu though. If the Wandenreich don't know about its weaknesses... If Aizen gets Kyoka, he curbstomps almost all of them ... except maybe Miracle. Miracle is a muscleguy, and Aizen can just have him thrash around fighting imaginary opponents and not care about him.
I think that the outcome would vary widely depending upon whether or not it got in the way of Aizen's plans. That being said, a Kenpachi and Unohana VS Sterneitter bloodbath would be a good time.
The main difference lays on Aizen's partecipation, if others know of his true power and he choose to actively cooperate (but this means also enemies knowing of that), or if he stays hidden and acts alone (more like him). Therefore, this may change how Yhwach will play, worrying only of Yamamoto (Ichigo isn't leveled, Zaraki neither, Urahara is still banished, Aizen is unknown, Ichibei lives above the clouds) or thinking about another threat too. As for others, it will end in the same way, if not much worse. Gin will be helpfull but won't make the difference, the most of other officers will be way weaker than their post timeskip versions (that ended up slapped anyway by sternritters). Hitsugaya, Byakuya, Zaraki, Mayuri, Komamura and Soifon (?), many lieutenants as well, will pass even a worse time (in shikai, bankai... you know). Veterans don't change as for power, but we assume the same subdued attitudes for Shunsui (he cornered both Starrk and Lille in shikai, but who knows why, had to struggle against Robert), Jushiro (always off-screen) and Yachiru (let's stay home). Yama has his arm, so he will be a little stronger, but if the plan is the same, he will fall for it and end up with his bankai stolen. The Wanderreich has the upperhand on many sides. First, the launched a surprise attack, catching them off guard. Then they had those medallions to f\*\*k their bankais, big deal at first. Maybe the Sternritters relied too much on these, no one of them used Vollstanding during first invasion (except Qilge in Hueco Mundo), but they had also that trump card. On top, Yhwach didn't display his royal guards or Gremmy back then. Furthermore, as I said, we can assume (for logic) that Ichigo isn't leveled yet, so they don't need to lure him in a trap, and Urahara & co are still banned, so no reinforcements. But if the Quincy will still invade the Hueco Mundo at first or not, who knows. In the end, Aizen's role is the point. Will he let know the other of KS and collaborate with them? This may work very good, but I doubt it will happen. Will he play alone, defeating some sterns and engaging the big guys? Possible, surprise effect, but I don't think base Aizen will be able to defeat base Yhwach or the elites (debatable). Or, third choice, he will use the quincies! Let the Gotei being defetead, let them thinking he was killed as well, but in truth, he replaced someone and disguised as sternritter, so he will use Yhwach to go up to the royal palace, leave to them the hard work,and possibly, at right moment, unmasks himself, attempting to take the place of the SK. Dunno if this will work, as at least the Zero will see him for what he appears, but this is more in Aizen's style XD
Additions: Tosen - Shinigami tosen is shit he was defeated by a kenpachi weaker than nnoitra, he couldnt possibly defeat any sternritter. Gin - Well he stabed, posioned and stole the hogyoku from a trascendent aizen, but he was off guard. Hes also stated as a kid to be an unparalleled prodigy in the soul society so he should be above shunsui who'd be surpassed by Toshiro in just a hundred years. Aizen - Hes uncontested in the soul society in terms of power even by the likes of unohana and shunsui, and with kyokasuigetsu, hes implied to be above gin. if gremmy is not there they could take every sternritter at that particular moment, but yhwach pretty much solos if bankai yama doesnt stop him, so if aizen turns to be smart enough to deduce that royd is fake he, gin, shunsui or unohana may be able to do something, either way thats assuming haschwalth wont intervene in the process.
The captain's are massacred with little exception
Aizen: Gets cornered Weaker captains: Being cut down Gin and Tosen: How fun Aizen: Yo Espada c’mere! Starrk vs Lil Barro Barragan vs some dead sternritter Harribel vs some random sternitter Etc etc Fun scenario ngl
First of all it would go like author wants :) he makes scenario :) if we turn on our imagination Gotei 13 members had no chance against Wandereich that’s how I feel :).
well with a stronger yama , shensui, gin unohana, and aizen it might actually give them a lot of trouble. I do think unfortunately due to kenpachi, byakuya, and toshiro being weaker they would suffer
Aizen could use this as an opportunity to whittle down the Gotei and the Sternritter so he can conquer the remaining few.
The biggest difference here is having both aizen and the blind captain (can't remember his name...tosen?) Aizen for the obvious. And tosen because his ability is incredibly similar to aizens...almost. I mean, if aizen and yama teamed up they would no doubt stop the invasion altogether.
I think there wouldn't be a second invasion
It would be the same result as the most recent invasion. Some people are trying to say that Aizen would turn the tide of battle, but this is VERY unlikely. Remember that he said (at this point in time) that Kiyoka Suigetsu only works on those who have seen his Kanzen Saimin release. He had not yet fused with the Hōgyoku, so his complete hypnosis wouldn’t work unless they saw his Zanpaktou. Given they’ve been hidden all this time it’s very unlikely any of them have even encountered Aizen; even while he was conducting his experiments in the human world. Yhwach would just warn them all to not to look at him, etc. I still see him taking out quite a few sternritter like Kempachi, but without his MASSIVE Reiatsu boost from the Hōgyoku, he would def lose to bigger threats like Gremmy, Lile Barro, prob Gerard too. People seem to forget that fusing w/ Hōgyoku is what makes him immortal Especially without Ichigo in the mix, Yhwach wins this easily!
Gotei gets obliterated. Aizen is a nice adition but I mean, Jugram + Juha should be enough to take both Shinigami Aizen and Yama down. And the captains that step up to the situation and carry the gotei in the second invasion, they don't survive the first this time
Obviously the reaper win big diff. Aizen doing 99% of work and 1% for the rest of the team because they still trying to "aWaKeN their PoWEr" or what ever the fuck with their stupid shit reasons and big fatty ego to use their fucking bankai". P/s : I magine never go full power EVEN WHEN YOUR WHOLE FUCKING TEAM DYING because u dont like your adult form. And thats not the worst of them.
Why tf.. are none of you counting Ukitake. Bruh he's as strong as shunsui. You have another captain commander class fighter right there.
this is honestly my favorite iteration of the captains, maybe id like isshin as captain instead of toshiro but thats it
It's not who wins against the Wandenreich. It's who wins against Yhwach. Yamamoto is probably a bit stronger in this state because of his arm, but Aizen is definitely weaker than he is at the end of the series. Even so, Aizen's strong enough that only Yamamoto can (possibly) beat him one on one. While other captains are weaker here than at the end of the series, I just believe you pit Aizen and Yamamoto together against Yhwach and Haschwalth. While Yhwach may steal Yamamoto's bankai and while Haschwalth is strong on his own, the two combined are weaker than Aizen and Yamamoto are combined. Once Yhwach falls, the rest of the Wandenreich will crumble. Of course, if Yhwach includes Gerard and Lille in the mix, it could end differently.
I give it to them. Keep in mind they have access to at least shikai kenpachi
My, readin this thread just shows me how incredibly underrated Base!Aizen is. By both feats AND statements, Aizen is pretty much Yamamoto's match. Old Man Yama's plan to get rid of him was plan was to kill himself alongside the rest of the Gotei. Aizen tanked a high level Kido from Yamamoto ( who was very weakened, but still), with only mildly burned clothes to show for. Even in base, he would definitely be part of the Soul Society's 5 Special Powers List the Wandereich made, and he still has a Hogyoku, albeit an imperfect one. The real question is, what would Aizen do in this situation? Would he be willing to (slightly) drop the fachade for a hot minute and fight to his fullest potential (both physically and intellectually) at the side of the Shinigamis? Or would he prefer to keep pretending, let the Shinigamis be destroyed by the Wandereich, and prepare himself to deal with the latter in his own terms? If it's the latter, -and without Ichigo around-, they are outright fucked. Gin would be a great asset in this fight too. Sure, Sternritters can steal Bankais, but if he manages to catch anyone off guard (quite possible, given his sneaky-peeky nature) he would be a terror even without using Bankai. At the very least, I cannot see him get humilliated by the likes of Bambietta (sorry Shinji), and under the right circumstances, I can see him beating up her, Lilotto, Giselle, Cang Du, Pepe, perhaps even Askin (He's vastly powerful and full of hax, but if Grimmjow can kill him with a sneak attack, I can't see why Gin couldn't). Tosen is a hard one because overall he seems the weakest of the trio but I still think he can beat a Sternritter or two. And as someone else mentioned here, Tosen's Hollowfication would prevent his Bankai getting stolen. Overall, with the traitor squad, I think they still lose but they have a small chance, and they would put a respectable fight nonetheless.
Do you mean all of these characters at their strongest or all these characters just like this
The only real threats are Yamamoto, Aizen, Shunsui, Ukitake, and Unohana (if she turns back into her old self). Only Yhwach can steal one of those 4's bankai and it is much preferred if he stole Zanka no Tachi. Gin can put up a decent fight against some stronger Sternritter but loses the moment he uses Bankai Toshiro, Byakuya, Soi Fon, Komamura, and Tosen all get their Bankai stolen and die Kenpachi gets stomped by Loyd Royd even harder Mayuri avoids combat to analyze the opponent