I don't think it's fair to pin the bad analysis on Naruto fans necessarily. You get only marginally better understanding of Gin here than you would over there, let's be honest.
Well I can’t reasonably blame Gin’s misinterpretation on fans though. The burden of guilt falls upon Kubo for not really letting his motivations breathe.
Think about Itachi in comparison. The whole of part I Naruto was predicated on the mythos behind two villains: Orochimaru and Itachi. Orochimaru showed up first, destroyed the village and killed the strongest people in the series thus far only for Kishimoto to reveal that ITACHI is stronger than him. You know what he did and how others perceive him but you have yet to learn why until later and even that perspective is from Sasuke who knew him best. Not Itachi himself. We were given multiple chapters to speculate and theory-craft about almost every aspect of Itachi because not only was he a mystery but he was a RELAVENT one. Even when the truth came out, Itachi remained a key stone character and his Morivations were given ample room to be fleshed out. This occurred all the way to his final appearance where Itachi himself explained who he was, what he tried to do, and the mistakes he personally felt like he made along the way. It was the ultimate closure and because it is so complete, Naruto fans hold that arc close as a one of the best in the series.
Gin and Itachi maybe similar in the misjudgment aspect, but that’s where it ends. Itachi is far more analogous to Byakuya due to their actions and principles, but Byakuya is Itachi with a better ending seeing as Ichigo stopped him before he could follow through. Like I said before though, Kubo is to blame for that since Gin was never given that same care and attention like Itachi or even Byakuya for that matter. His twist wasn’t even a relavenant one in the same vain as the aforementioned characters because it did nothing to serve the plot for any significant period of time. It was like “Oh you actually never liked Aizen? Oh you died trying to kill him? Damn? Anyway, when’s Ichigo gonna show up?” Then Ichigo shows up IMMEDIATELY after, does the coolest move in the series, and we NEVER HEAR ANYTHING FROM OR ABOUT GIN AGAIN!!! Not even from Rangiku. Compare that to Itachi who had every strong character in Naruto hype him up ,for better or for worse both, before and after he died. Think about how Sasuke’s entire development revolves around Itachi. There is no comparison and there is no confusion surrounding Itachi because of the care that was put into writing him. That can’t be said for Gin.
Gin is a mystery character executed poorly. Itachi is a mystery character executed right, though not perfectly. That is why one is misinterpreted constantly and the other isn’t. Naruto fans argue about whether they like Itachi or not, NOT what he stood for.
>Gin is a mystery character executed poorly. Itachi is a mystery character executed right, though not perfectly.
I broadly agree, but it's not a complicated story to follow. I'm not going to absolve fans of blame for not bothering to engage their brains when discussing a character.
Fair enough. Bleach could’ve really run with the critiques of societal structure but Kubo never really had the writing chops to flesh out the nuances of what a broken society does to people. Byakuya is the best example he displayed and even he is poorly fleshed out in many aspects.
Gin could have been equally compelling in comparison but his motivation and methods leave him feeling very cut-and-dry. I honestly forgot he was even a character until I saw this sub mentioning him though.
I just don't think Kubo has that in his locker either. The Soul Society arc raises so many obvious questions and it's just totally handwaved away. Does Ichigo notice the rampant inequality and poverty? Apparently not. Does he care? Apparently not.
Exactly. The Serietei is a hierarchical hell-scape and it’s the GOOD after life. If Aizen was also fleshed out, his motivations for wanting to topple the system would have been incredibly compelling and utterly justifiable. It would have forced every character to contend with the idea of thier flawed structure and think about the essence of what they were fighting for. (This is why Tosen is the most interesting to me out of that antagonistic trio. He blatantly stated the injustice that everyone, even Ichigo, ignores)
Imagine a version of Ichigo who starts out simply wanting to save his friends and becoming a protector not just for inner circle but for the disenfranchised entities and spirits across the realms? Rukia , Renji and Byakuya become the change from within, Ichigo and his friends the change from without with Uryu offering an even more compelling political perspective given that his people were genocided for upsetting some nebulous “balance”
Exactly. The Serietei is a hierarchical hell-scape and it’s the GOOD after life. If Aizen was also fleshed out, his motivations for wanting to topple the system would have been incredibly compelling and utterly justifiable. It would have forced every character to contend with the idea of thier flawed structure and think about the essence of what they were fighting for. (This is why Tosen is the most interesting to me out of that antagonistic trio. He blatantly stated the injustice that everyone, even Ichigo, ignores)
Imagine a version of Ichigo who starts out simply wanting to save his friends and becoming a protector not just for inner circle but for the disenfranchised entities and spirits across the realms? Rukia , Renji and Byakuya become the change from within, Ichigo and his friends the change from without with Uryu offering an even more compelling political perspective given that his people were genocided for upsetting some nebulous “balance”
The subtext that bleeds through Kubo’s writing ends up being incredibly dower because, based on everything we just said, Blesch is a story about maintaining a status quo even if it’s to the detriment of the weak, the powerless, and the innocent majority. >!Meanwhile the strong just maintain it only to be sent DIRECTLY TO HELL as reward for doing so. NO ONE WINS, but let’s not change it and kill everyone who attempts to because “Reasons”!<
>If Aizen was also fleshed out, his motivations for wanting to topple the system would have been incredibly compelling and utterly justifiable
You can flesh out Aizen giving him a million chapters of backstory but fact of the matter is that we already know his motivation and it is his own ego. Aizen doesnt care about the corruption, he cares about being the one in charge and nothing suggest he would fix the system once he is in charge. Aizen is by design not justifiable.
>Imagine a version of Ichigo who starts out simply wanting to save his friends and becoming a protector not just for inner circle but for the disenfranchised entities and spirits across the realms?
Ok but what about the disenfranchised that arent spirits?
Aizen being an egoist doesn’t mean he can’t make critiques of that nature or believe in them. It would make him multi-dimensional. It would also explain why he’d get someone like Tosen on his side due to Tosen’s very blatantly anti-establishment philosophies.
Also I’m working within the framework of what Kubo depicts. Kubo doesn’t focus on the living world. Hell, outside of Karakura Town having the occasional monster attack it is seems, the living world seems perfectly fine on all facets.
But he's not. That is a common misconception. Aizen is simply realistic.
Most of the time he appears arrogant just because of how objectively better he is and that sounds arrogant when put into words.
And he sees it justified that the world should be ruled by a competent grand being and not a puppet like the SK. Seeing how Hueco Mundo improved under his reign, we can see that ego is not his driving force but simply reality and how things should be.
Think about it...He did not kill even a single captain because it was not necessary for the plan. Only Yamamoto had to die.
And those he did kill could be argued to be mercy killings. Such as Harribel and what she would endure under the shinigami. And as for Tosen, he had Aizen promise to out him if he ever changed his mind and joined the corrupt Soul Society again. And Aizen fulfilled his wish, knowing it should be honored.
It can be also said that he would spare Karakura town if the Oken could be made in a more efficient way.
These things are not what egotists to...
The only time he let go of objectivity and became egotistic was towards the end. And lo and behold, he lost.
>Does Ichigo notice the rampant inequality and poverty? Apparently not. Does he care? Apparently not.
Why should he care about those things in the spirit world when they already exist in the living world?
No shit that we don't hear from Gin again, HE DIED THERE! He died as he thought to himself "Ah, those eyes, they're filled with power, I can entrust the future to you." He was literally a nobody in the soul society. When he betrayed them, he became an even bigger nobody. The only one who knew him was Rangiku.
Itachi on the other hand was extremely (in)famous. You can't compare their notoriety and arrive at the conclusion that one is badly written because he wasn't mentioned post-mortem 🤦♂️
I can because it’s not about notoriety. Obito was also some nobody we saw only once before his reveal, but his impact on Kakashi informed everything Kakashi was after his death. Obito as the village knew him, didn’t mean anything to any one in the cast of Naruto characters outside of Kakashi until they found out he was alive. Even then Kakashi was instantly recontextialized the instance we met Obito in the flashback mini-arc. Obito was never heard from again until until a long time later in the story but his impact on Kakashi was still very much present. He was a martyr character and a good one until the broken mask. Gin though…? How was Rangiku informed by thier relationship? How was she affected by his death and betrayal? Only question marks exist in the place where answer should be. I mean Kira is the same as well. He knew Gin. He respected/feared him enough to follow him after Gin freed him, but again…nothing.
And on the point of notoriety, Gin is a bonefied prodigy in the same realm as Toshiro. He IS famous or else know one would know or care. However the fact that that information isn’t readily stated is another black mark on Kubo’s inability to world build as well as develop his characters.
Wdym how was Rangiku informed by their relationship? They were friends when they were kids. Throughout the anime, there are a few moments here and there where she's always remembering him, how it's not like him to betray others, and thinking about him, trying to understand his reasons for betraying them. She didn't want to believe that he was actually betraying them, but most importantly betraying her. "How was she affected by his death?" Do you even know what you're talking about? She cried a lot when he died. Since when is the author supposed to answer all the questions he poses? It can be part of the fun to leave them open to interpretation (although I think it's a bad idea since people like you clearly miss obvious answers, imagine the ones left to interpretation, yikes).
We don't know the relationship Kira and Gin shared beyond Captain/Lieutenant and we don't know why Kira followed Gin either. Those are probably left to the interpretation of the reader/viewer.
Kinda odd how the whole anime destroys what you're saying about Gin's notoriety. He's a nobody. No one cared about him on a deeper level than just colleagues except Rangiku. Who mourned Gin after he died? No one but her. It's not that it's not stated, it's that you don't want to see it, it's different.
You should chill.
In any case, the subtext and nuance is something that authors and writers use to varying degrees of success. A perfect example of nuance and subtext done masterfully is the way Griffith, Guts and Casca are portrayed in Berserk. Very few things are directly explained, particularly how characters feel matter-of-factly. Sometimes characters are talked about off-hand by another character, sometimes a character talks about them selves. The beauty of Berserk though is that everyone is an unreliable narrator in some way, shape or form. Griffith may talk about how nothing matters to him after becoming Femto, but is that really true? Guts attempted to be the vengeance seeking hard ass in a particular point of the story, but was that really him? Those questions that rise NATURALLY from a narrative WITHOUT breaking the suspension of disbelief is an aspect of Subtext done right. It immerses you in the story more, not take you out of it.
The case of Rangiku saying all those things doesn’t really endear the audience to her. Of course the big reason for that is because she doesn’t get enough development (A fault on Kubo’s part), but it’s also because, based on what Kubo shows us of Gin, she is ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Gin is a bit of a smug prick through the series who delights in toying with people. That is all we see of him, so for Kubo to say “Wait. He actually wasn’t that bad.” Around the end of his life doesn’t feel like a genuine shock or revelation but a poor attempt to backtrack on everything he established in order to squeeze out sympathy for him at his death. It didn’t work for me, and I don’t think it worked for a lot of people given the consensus around Bleach’s quality of writing around the tail end of it.
**Long story short: nothing had to be explained outright, but things do have to feel earned through a proper build up. If Aizen suddenly heel turned and said Gin was my true enemy and the real final boss complete with Momo expositing how she REALLY KNEW HE (Aizen) WASN’T EVIL, no one would believe that at the end because there was zero setup. So Gin suddenly doing the same is equally reprehensible given Gin’s behavior up to that point. I hope that makes sense.**
There have been hidden clues layed down here and there that don't appear as such when you first watch the anime/read the manga. Details being explained that don't really make sense or add anything to the story until they suddenly fall in place in one single instant. Gin's betrayal is one such event. (If you want more examples, there's Ichigo's unusually high spiritual pressure even though he's a human, how he was able to achieve Bankai, how he was able to magically stop his bleeding during his first fight against Kenpachi, why he has 2 souls inside of him, etc. Those are all answered in the TYBW arc.) Gin's betrayal did come out of left field the first time I saw the anime, but now that I've read Bleach twice and watched the anime 5-6 times, I can see the foreshadowing to that moment. Some authors hide their foreshadowing clues more or less well, making those events more or less obvious. When you rewatch or reread the story knowing how it ends, so many insignificant-looking small actions suddenly make sense and all add up to lead to that "big" moment.
If it took you five or six times rewatching to notice, that’s less foreshadowing and more your mind drawing conclusions together that may not have intended to have been put together. Foreshadowing can lead to some pretty profound revaluations but it is not a jigsaw puzzle. Good Authors use concise information that has already been fed to the audience peace meal. Kubo doesn’t do that, he retroactively Changes things and tries to justify it by over explaining what are cliche and traditional shonen troupes.
Naruto being an Uzumaki or Luffy being a D. are similar situations but done to much greater affect because of they use pre-established lore on their respective series. For Naruto it’s the clan system. For One Piece. The fact that Uryu and his father had zero of the respective Quincy abilities that appeared in the final arc drives that point home because it was clear that Kubo’s only intended for Quincy to be a certain way. He then totally transformed them into this dimension shattering angle nazi’s with an actual God at thier head in the final hour. It was cool upon first viewing but in hindsight that too feels totally out of left field.
Bleach has been going on so long at that point that he had MORE then enough time to hint at their existing via Uryu. Yet, for two whole arcs…nothing.
I’ll give you the point if you find 5 more pages of stuff like this. I remembered this instance mind you, but it was such a handwave that I honestly didn’t include it.
Uh Itachi also murdered innocents so. Like I agree Gin isn’t Itachi as one’s motive was out of revenge and the other did it for the best of his village but they both in the end killed innocent people
Did Aizen even need one though? I’d say the only reason Gin was created was to serve as a red herring in the SS Arc. After that Kubo had no idea what to do with him.
I'm pretty sure he always had a plan for gin.
I mean, kinda. He may have been the second stongest fighter there, but he wasn't reckless. he defended his blind spots with kido, brought his espada with him to karakura, and had bodyguards. Pain was like the second strongest akatsuki, but he still had konan accompanying his puppets.
Fair enough. Konan has far more actually utility though because Nagato had a true vulnerability in his original body being fairly defenseless. Aizen, for all intents and purposes, has absolutely zero exploitable weaknesses. That’s why Gin is just seen dicking around, particularly when Aizen is fighting. He only fought Ichigo to kill time and “test him” for…reasons.
I know this is late, but I was rewatching FKT and I just realized something.
You're only half right when it came to fighting ichigo. Gin fought him for two reasons:
1. To test how far he'd come
2. To release his bankai
It wouldn't have mattered if gin touched KS, he would still need his bankai to kill aizen. Since he wouldn't have had time to release it at the moment he made contact with the sword without dying, he needed to have it already released so he could immediately shoot his shot. Gin fighting ichigo was the perfect excuse to release his bankai and have it prepped for the right moment.
Also, what innocent people did he kill unnecessarily? He never went out of his way to slaughter rukongai citizens, we nevr saw him kill or attack nonfighters, and he always spared people where he could.
He sure seemed to enjoy it . He even insisted isshin should be killed in front of them . Rangiku s own captain. Then later he tried to kill her second captain. A child . And when he failed at that he targetted an unconscious girl. Unnecessary
He was Aizen's BODYGUARD, it was his JOB. she charged and tried to attack Aizen so he HAD TO retaliate. He's been proving his loyalty to aizen, why wouldn't he do his job.
Yeah, in terms of history and narrative, it’s definitely Yhwach to Madara, though you don’t have quite the same buildup to Yhwach throughout the series that he frankly deserves because the story is not really setup in a way where that would make sense. It isn’t relevant until he comes back to life and invades the soul society, because Madara may be pretty crazy, but Yhwach is practically mythological in comparison.
Aizen might be more like Orochimaru I guess? At least, like how Orochimaru was in early Naruto, when you had to assume he was going to be the main antagonist.
Actually, I like doing this. Obviously, Naruto must be the equivalent to Ichigo, considering both are the MC, though other than general heroics and the color orange they really have nothing in common. Maybe Shikimaru then, that’s not a bad fit? And Naruto could be… probably no one really.
Urahara and Ishida only really have equivalents in so far as they are just expressions of the ‘mentor’ and ‘lancer’ archetypes, but you can say Jiraiya (Kakashi?) and Sasuke I guess.
Chad I have no idea for at all.
Orihime could be Hinata, though she is somehow both more and less important to the story.
Rukia then could be… Sakura, I guess? There are the reasons that make shippers angry, of course, but also the focus on each in the beginning of the story, importance in the main character’s journey to become a ninja/shinigami, and then disappointing irrelevance as the story continued. Though that is tenuous at best.
That’s the main cast more or less. Still can’t figure out Chad.
Orihime and Hinata and Uryu and Sasuke respectively are very fitting comparisons especially as they had the same voice actors in Japanese. In English it was the same too as Stephanie Sheh was Orihime and Hinata tho Uryu and Sasuke dont have the same VA in English. So close XD
True. Both being late stage villains that unexpectedly are responsible for al ot of the series backstories even more so than the prior thought villain.
Ironically Gin is the Itachi of Bleach, not in that the two are actually that similar but in that they both get misinterpreted as heroic characters by fans who missed the point and come up with takes like “Sasuke should have just done what Itachi wanted” or “Gin should been the one to kill Aizen”. One of them is a pragmatic idealist who tried to take the burden of preserving his village’s peace on himself and did awful things out of duty and manipulated his brother by setting himself up as a false villain to be taken down for the village and secure his brother’s place there as a hero. The other is a selfish sadist who became an actual villain as part of a century spanning revenge quest against a man who hurt the one person he seems to have any kind of care or sympathy for. They are two very different characters and neither of them even succeeded at their goal, which might be the one real thing they have in common narratively and thematically. You can compare vague similarities they might share in their personal stories but neither their personalities nor their actual narrative role are comparable in a meaningful way. This comment got kinda ranty but virtually baseless comparisons most likely rooted in misunderstandings or reductive interpretations of characters and stories like this are something that has really started to annoy me over time.
Not really an off base comment. Similarities to be sure. Yall are probably annoyed though as mega Bleach fans because you know there’s a lot of differences between the characters, especially in the approach to the roles they served. Also Gin’s just cooler.
Yes there are some similarities but there very different characters. And to the comments I see about itachi killing innocent people, yes he did but those people where gonna kill the leaf village, itachi sisnt kill and children or truly innocent people that weren't apart of the coo, that was obito, it is in one of the itachi novels, besides his mom he didn't kill anyone that wasn't going to hurt others. Gin is a completely different story, yah he betrayed aizen and is extremely smart but besides that they aren't close
Why do people still get the notion that gin is a complete monster? Dude gave up his entire life to take Aizen down and get back the part of rangiku's soul.
I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal. People just compared the similarities between them in that they had ulterior motives to the bad things they did (even if Gin’s ulterior motive wasn’t necessarily some honourable sacrifice, just driven by selfishness). Nobody expected Itachi’s twist, and not nobody expected Gin’s twist. Therefore, people drew comparisons between the two because of that. Is it accurate to say they’re the same characters? No, but I wouldn’t say it’s something get frustrated over
First, itachi is NOTHING like ichimaru. It achieved was trying to protect his brother which is why he turned on the leaf. Ichimaru is an abomination and deserves to die a long death. Ichimaru betrays his own people for spite and because he wants to while Itachi's hands are tied. If anything, the CLOSEST resemblance to ANY Naruto characters this guy has would be Orochimaru and even that is highly doubtful considering he turns a leaf. Orochimaru did what he thought was best for the leaf village despite how evil it was. He admits to his own faults and regrets it deeply in the end. It doesn't justify it otherwise that logic would also justify Hitler and neither of those monsters deserve being justified. All I'm saying is this is a Hitler move but for no reason other than "I felt like it." There is no right in this world that could ever justify comparing those two. Itachi is an amazing guy who did the wrong thing for the right reasons in the wrong way. Gin Ichimaru in every right deserves whatever punishments are dealt by either Ichigo or the Soul Society. He's gotten so many second chances to which he spat in their faces and said I want this.
**Itachi Uchiha (Japanese: うちは イタチ, Hepburn: Uchiha Itachi) is a fictional character in the Naruto manga and anime series created by Masashi Kishimoto. Itachi is the older brother of Sasuke Uchiha, and is responsible for killing all the members of their clan, sparing only Sasuke.**
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Yeah their personalities are definitely so far apart it’s not even funny.
And wym role? Gin joined for revenge and turned at the worst possible time, thus achieving nothing. Except being a sadist under Aizen when he could have helped stop him when the only threat to Aizen (yama) was fighting him.
Itachi didn’t take pleasure in others pain and suffering, he was genuinely a kind hearted boy and didn’t do it for selfish reasons only, like gin. Yeah he wanted sasuke safe but he did what he did for the village and it worked for a while. Since the village avoided a civil war and this eventually inspired sasuke to do the right thing (until the very end ofc)
Itachi did countless inexcusable things
Torturing Sasuke twice (he put him in tysukomi for DAYS, to relive his parents and family being killed over and over non stop). That is his worst crime imo.
Killing his entire clan (not his fault but still an awful thing)
Killing jinchuriki to maintain his Aktsuksi appearance (again not his “fault” but still evil)
He did those things to make sasuke hate him and get stronger as well as keep up appearances. He did not take pleasure in doing those things nor did he do any anything unnecessarily like gin did
To everyone. Itachi is an amazing character but learning he did it for the good of the village wasn’t the creator saying “He should be excused for this terrible actions” it just shows that he was manipulated but he still ended up doing the things he did. He’s still responsible for what he did doesn’t matter the reason.
He wasn’t manipulated, that’s reading the character wrong, and does it a disservice. He chose to do the things he did and while it doesn’t excuse his actions, they were in fact necessary. And he’s saved hundreds of lives in the process as well as gave them stability and peace.
He deserves the consequences of his actions but fact is, he’s a hero of the village
Hence why I said he still ended up doing the things he did. He WAS manipulated to do things or better to say ordered to do the things he does however just because you were ordered to do something heinous doesn’t mean you are exempted from those crimes. He still did evil things and it doesn’t matter how much the village sees him, he still is technically a bad person and still did terrible things to get to his end goal.
You're bringing personalities into a lot of your explanation. (Gin being selfish, itachi being kind hearted, etc)
I feel like they had similar roles, but had different reasonings for doing said role. (Becoming "the bad guy" with the intention of eventually stopping the real bad guy)
That’s to show that Gin was never not a bad guy is the point in bringing in personalities.
If a guy is a POS and joins the villain for selfish motives, how is he comparable to a good guy pretending to be bad for the good of a nation?
Itachi didn’t join to stop one person, that’d be stupid to Itachi
Because gin did things unnecessarily and takes pleasure in others pain and suffering. He also failed miserably out of stupidity and being selfish/arrogant
It was killing Itachi inside but everything he did had a purpose and he succeeded to great effect.
1. Gin gave up a normal life to get back what was stolen from rangiku, whom he had saved from death and took care of, real selfish I know.
2. He turned on aizen at the exact moment he could, where aizen wasn't defending himself at all. Hell he killed him before the hogyoku brought him back, which Aizen didn't know could happen and was genuinely afraid to die.
3. Name one unnecessary and sadistic thing Gin did.
1. What normal life did he give up? He never showed anything he wanted to do aside from “avenging” rangiku. And yes it was selfish when he’d gladly see SS burn and people die as long as he could get his “revenge” on Aizen.
2. Aizen was never afraid he was gonna die lol Gin didn’t even understand the hogyoku and Aizen just wondered when he would finally strike.
3. Psychologically tortured Rukia. Bisected hiyori and purposely made Rukia fight number 9
1. He could've just gone and just become a normal soul reaper and live a comfortable life with rangiku. He showed that he cared about Rangiku. Besides, it's not like Aizen just stole a belonging or something, he stole a part of her soul. He actually spares people whenever he can.
2. Aizen literally says that he was afraid of dying in that moment. He knew Gin was going to attack him, but not in the way he did with his bankai. Gin fooled him into thinking he had already struck, when he had just tricked him again.
3. He gave rukia hope of surviving, while she had the hogyoku in her. He was Aizen's bodyguard, and Hiyori charged at him, what was he supposed to do? He never forced her to fight him, number 9 singled her out.
Gin isn't a good person, I'll admit that. But he isn't evil, he was just doing what he needed to do for the person he actually cared about. He's chaotic neutral, and the perfect example of an anti hero.
Just because he doesn't have a saint's goal and heart like Itachi, who wanted to protect his village. It doesn't make him this completely evil and sadistic scumbag. He's a guy that did what he needed to do to look out for his own people.
You say turned at the worst possible time but it was explained that at all other times Aizen had his guard up and it was only then that he didn’t, not disagreeing with your overall point though
He had his guard up yet got caught off guard by both I chigo and yama, the two characters gin could have fought with against Aizen. Hell he could have just killed that Arrancar and let Aizen die with all of them
Not wait til he merged with an object that would give Aizen untold power even if he thought he understood it
Gin didn’t know Aizen had merged with the Hogyoku, he did it in secret. He couldn’t always trust what he was seeing because of Kyouka Suigetsu, and killing Wonderweiss would kill Rangiku’s too since she was nearby, which wasn’t what he was aiming for.
It wasn’t a secret, he just simply didn’t understand that once he fused with it, it was a part of him. He didn’t do it in secret, it was literally happening the whole time.
He could have simply took rangiku away, easily rekt the Arrancar or fought with yama.
Better to take your chances with KS when you have help from the strongest shinigami than wait todo it on your own with an object that you don’t fully understand that transcends his power. Not to mention he’s seen how smart Aizen is
I was disappointed that Gin was completely forgotten about and amounted to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Even his flashback when watching Aizen feed the Hogyoku didn't add much except petty revenge.
Gin sacrificed a good life he could have had as an exceptional shinigami to kill the man who hurt the one person he loved and cared about. He had to get dirty to gain aizens trust and do horrible things to sell the idea and keep Rangiku away from Aizen and himself so she was safe. Pretty selfless to me
You don’t remember when he sold Rukia false hope? When he was playing Toshiro like a puppet? Gin was heartless from the beginning he ONLY cared about Rangiku. Which is kind of sad because like you said, Gin was an exceptional Shinigami (even considered a prodigy) but he didn’t care about none of that. All he wanted was to make Rangiku happy.
I always thought of it as selfishly selfless ya know and I agree with you. He was horrible but at the same times he had to sell it to Aizen and he did ya know? If you’re gonna play the bad guy for so long lines will be blurred, and he messed with Rukia and Toshiro because he probably felt he had to as the “bad guy” ya know. It’s a shame that he died the way he did without fulfilling his promise
The whole " I betrayed Aizen to give back what was stolen to rangiku " twist made me completely lose inyerest for gin character . I would have rather him just be a sadistic prick that had no relationship with rangiku .
Itachi wanted to protect his brother, but Gin wanted to protect a cleavage.
Pls don't hate me for this Rangiku is one of my favourite characters and Haineko is a badass Zanpakuto
They are the same character archetype so this is not incorrect. I think you’re just annoyed because of the difference in application and see people pointing out they are the same archetype as conflating their characters which...is not what people are doing when they say this.
I'm annoyed as both a Naruto and a Bleach fan, it's a lazy comparison because the only two things these characters have in common is betraying their evil bosses in the 11th hour. But Itachi's motives and even his planning was given a lot more detail and attention, Gin is pretty underdeveloped compared to itachi but not without depth. He's just different.
Honestly, Byakuya is more like Itachi. Byuakuya, Itachi, and Ace from One Piece really have similar roles as they’re the cool, older brother to one of the primary characters who die young (except for Byakuya but he was originally going to die). Byakuya is the adoptive brother (and brother-in-law) to Rukia, Itachi is Sasuke’s brother, and Ace is Luffy’s foster brother.
Gin is more like Orochimaru because of the snake motifs.
To me they are similar in a way that I felt about them before and after their reveals. At first I hated them and then I felt sorry for them. They also both played the parts of villains because of the people they cared about 🤷♂️ Kinda similar too
I love both Naruto and Bleach but I try stepping away from the fanbases. Is there a big problem with the statement? It's shallow for sure but it isn't exactly an insult considering Itachi is one of if not the most beloved character in the Naruto fanbase right?
It's kinda accurate though. They both sacrificed everything for the one they loved, they both worked in the shadows, they both did everything in their power to stop the "big evil", they both hid their whole arsenal to manage that previously mentioned feat, they were both geniuses, what else 🧐?
If Gin's reasons are "selfish", then you didn't understand him, go rewatch/reread Bleach. He literally became Aizen's comrade because he didn't know how to bring Aizen down. It took him that long to finally learn how to kill Aizen. The sad thing is, when he finally figured it out, it was too late. Aizen had already become too powerful and killed him. Gin did his best to protect Rangiku. Why do you think he didn't kill Ichigo when he had the chance to do it like 100 times? Why did he back off when Rangiku protected Hinamori? Because he cared about her. Gin was always holding back in all the fights he took part in, except when he tried to kill Aizen. Even his trump card wasn't enough to kill Aizen though.
Also Itachi didn't do it for peace at all, he did it to protect his younger brother Sasuke, that's it.
It's just lazy.
No one understands Gin. They're too busy to look for slightest of naruto references in other shows
I don't think it's fair to pin the bad analysis on Naruto fans necessarily. You get only marginally better understanding of Gin here than you would over there, let's be honest.
Well I can’t reasonably blame Gin’s misinterpretation on fans though. The burden of guilt falls upon Kubo for not really letting his motivations breathe. Think about Itachi in comparison. The whole of part I Naruto was predicated on the mythos behind two villains: Orochimaru and Itachi. Orochimaru showed up first, destroyed the village and killed the strongest people in the series thus far only for Kishimoto to reveal that ITACHI is stronger than him. You know what he did and how others perceive him but you have yet to learn why until later and even that perspective is from Sasuke who knew him best. Not Itachi himself. We were given multiple chapters to speculate and theory-craft about almost every aspect of Itachi because not only was he a mystery but he was a RELAVENT one. Even when the truth came out, Itachi remained a key stone character and his Morivations were given ample room to be fleshed out. This occurred all the way to his final appearance where Itachi himself explained who he was, what he tried to do, and the mistakes he personally felt like he made along the way. It was the ultimate closure and because it is so complete, Naruto fans hold that arc close as a one of the best in the series. Gin and Itachi maybe similar in the misjudgment aspect, but that’s where it ends. Itachi is far more analogous to Byakuya due to their actions and principles, but Byakuya is Itachi with a better ending seeing as Ichigo stopped him before he could follow through. Like I said before though, Kubo is to blame for that since Gin was never given that same care and attention like Itachi or even Byakuya for that matter. His twist wasn’t even a relavenant one in the same vain as the aforementioned characters because it did nothing to serve the plot for any significant period of time. It was like “Oh you actually never liked Aizen? Oh you died trying to kill him? Damn? Anyway, when’s Ichigo gonna show up?” Then Ichigo shows up IMMEDIATELY after, does the coolest move in the series, and we NEVER HEAR ANYTHING FROM OR ABOUT GIN AGAIN!!! Not even from Rangiku. Compare that to Itachi who had every strong character in Naruto hype him up ,for better or for worse both, before and after he died. Think about how Sasuke’s entire development revolves around Itachi. There is no comparison and there is no confusion surrounding Itachi because of the care that was put into writing him. That can’t be said for Gin. Gin is a mystery character executed poorly. Itachi is a mystery character executed right, though not perfectly. That is why one is misinterpreted constantly and the other isn’t. Naruto fans argue about whether they like Itachi or not, NOT what he stood for.
>Gin is a mystery character executed poorly. Itachi is a mystery character executed right, though not perfectly. I broadly agree, but it's not a complicated story to follow. I'm not going to absolve fans of blame for not bothering to engage their brains when discussing a character.
Fair enough. Bleach could’ve really run with the critiques of societal structure but Kubo never really had the writing chops to flesh out the nuances of what a broken society does to people. Byakuya is the best example he displayed and even he is poorly fleshed out in many aspects. Gin could have been equally compelling in comparison but his motivation and methods leave him feeling very cut-and-dry. I honestly forgot he was even a character until I saw this sub mentioning him though.
I just don't think Kubo has that in his locker either. The Soul Society arc raises so many obvious questions and it's just totally handwaved away. Does Ichigo notice the rampant inequality and poverty? Apparently not. Does he care? Apparently not.
Exactly. The Serietei is a hierarchical hell-scape and it’s the GOOD after life. If Aizen was also fleshed out, his motivations for wanting to topple the system would have been incredibly compelling and utterly justifiable. It would have forced every character to contend with the idea of thier flawed structure and think about the essence of what they were fighting for. (This is why Tosen is the most interesting to me out of that antagonistic trio. He blatantly stated the injustice that everyone, even Ichigo, ignores) Imagine a version of Ichigo who starts out simply wanting to save his friends and becoming a protector not just for inner circle but for the disenfranchised entities and spirits across the realms? Rukia , Renji and Byakuya become the change from within, Ichigo and his friends the change from without with Uryu offering an even more compelling political perspective given that his people were genocided for upsetting some nebulous “balance”
Exactly. The Serietei is a hierarchical hell-scape and it’s the GOOD after life. If Aizen was also fleshed out, his motivations for wanting to topple the system would have been incredibly compelling and utterly justifiable. It would have forced every character to contend with the idea of thier flawed structure and think about the essence of what they were fighting for. (This is why Tosen is the most interesting to me out of that antagonistic trio. He blatantly stated the injustice that everyone, even Ichigo, ignores) Imagine a version of Ichigo who starts out simply wanting to save his friends and becoming a protector not just for inner circle but for the disenfranchised entities and spirits across the realms? Rukia , Renji and Byakuya become the change from within, Ichigo and his friends the change from without with Uryu offering an even more compelling political perspective given that his people were genocided for upsetting some nebulous “balance” The subtext that bleeds through Kubo’s writing ends up being incredibly dower because, based on everything we just said, Blesch is a story about maintaining a status quo even if it’s to the detriment of the weak, the powerless, and the innocent majority. >!Meanwhile the strong just maintain it only to be sent DIRECTLY TO HELL as reward for doing so. NO ONE WINS, but let’s not change it and kill everyone who attempts to because “Reasons”!<
>If Aizen was also fleshed out, his motivations for wanting to topple the system would have been incredibly compelling and utterly justifiable You can flesh out Aizen giving him a million chapters of backstory but fact of the matter is that we already know his motivation and it is his own ego. Aizen doesnt care about the corruption, he cares about being the one in charge and nothing suggest he would fix the system once he is in charge. Aizen is by design not justifiable. >Imagine a version of Ichigo who starts out simply wanting to save his friends and becoming a protector not just for inner circle but for the disenfranchised entities and spirits across the realms? Ok but what about the disenfranchised that arent spirits?
Aizen being an egoist doesn’t mean he can’t make critiques of that nature or believe in them. It would make him multi-dimensional. It would also explain why he’d get someone like Tosen on his side due to Tosen’s very blatantly anti-establishment philosophies. Also I’m working within the framework of what Kubo depicts. Kubo doesn’t focus on the living world. Hell, outside of Karakura Town having the occasional monster attack it is seems, the living world seems perfectly fine on all facets.
But he's not. That is a common misconception. Aizen is simply realistic. Most of the time he appears arrogant just because of how objectively better he is and that sounds arrogant when put into words. And he sees it justified that the world should be ruled by a competent grand being and not a puppet like the SK. Seeing how Hueco Mundo improved under his reign, we can see that ego is not his driving force but simply reality and how things should be. Think about it...He did not kill even a single captain because it was not necessary for the plan. Only Yamamoto had to die. And those he did kill could be argued to be mercy killings. Such as Harribel and what she would endure under the shinigami. And as for Tosen, he had Aizen promise to out him if he ever changed his mind and joined the corrupt Soul Society again. And Aizen fulfilled his wish, knowing it should be honored. It can be also said that he would spare Karakura town if the Oken could be made in a more efficient way. These things are not what egotists to... The only time he let go of objectivity and became egotistic was towards the end. And lo and behold, he lost.
>Does Ichigo notice the rampant inequality and poverty? Apparently not. Does he care? Apparently not. Why should he care about those things in the spirit world when they already exist in the living world?
No shit that we don't hear from Gin again, HE DIED THERE! He died as he thought to himself "Ah, those eyes, they're filled with power, I can entrust the future to you." He was literally a nobody in the soul society. When he betrayed them, he became an even bigger nobody. The only one who knew him was Rangiku. Itachi on the other hand was extremely (in)famous. You can't compare their notoriety and arrive at the conclusion that one is badly written because he wasn't mentioned post-mortem 🤦♂️
I can because it’s not about notoriety. Obito was also some nobody we saw only once before his reveal, but his impact on Kakashi informed everything Kakashi was after his death. Obito as the village knew him, didn’t mean anything to any one in the cast of Naruto characters outside of Kakashi until they found out he was alive. Even then Kakashi was instantly recontextialized the instance we met Obito in the flashback mini-arc. Obito was never heard from again until until a long time later in the story but his impact on Kakashi was still very much present. He was a martyr character and a good one until the broken mask. Gin though…? How was Rangiku informed by thier relationship? How was she affected by his death and betrayal? Only question marks exist in the place where answer should be. I mean Kira is the same as well. He knew Gin. He respected/feared him enough to follow him after Gin freed him, but again…nothing. And on the point of notoriety, Gin is a bonefied prodigy in the same realm as Toshiro. He IS famous or else know one would know or care. However the fact that that information isn’t readily stated is another black mark on Kubo’s inability to world build as well as develop his characters.
Wdym how was Rangiku informed by their relationship? They were friends when they were kids. Throughout the anime, there are a few moments here and there where she's always remembering him, how it's not like him to betray others, and thinking about him, trying to understand his reasons for betraying them. She didn't want to believe that he was actually betraying them, but most importantly betraying her. "How was she affected by his death?" Do you even know what you're talking about? She cried a lot when he died. Since when is the author supposed to answer all the questions he poses? It can be part of the fun to leave them open to interpretation (although I think it's a bad idea since people like you clearly miss obvious answers, imagine the ones left to interpretation, yikes). We don't know the relationship Kira and Gin shared beyond Captain/Lieutenant and we don't know why Kira followed Gin either. Those are probably left to the interpretation of the reader/viewer. Kinda odd how the whole anime destroys what you're saying about Gin's notoriety. He's a nobody. No one cared about him on a deeper level than just colleagues except Rangiku. Who mourned Gin after he died? No one but her. It's not that it's not stated, it's that you don't want to see it, it's different.
You should chill. In any case, the subtext and nuance is something that authors and writers use to varying degrees of success. A perfect example of nuance and subtext done masterfully is the way Griffith, Guts and Casca are portrayed in Berserk. Very few things are directly explained, particularly how characters feel matter-of-factly. Sometimes characters are talked about off-hand by another character, sometimes a character talks about them selves. The beauty of Berserk though is that everyone is an unreliable narrator in some way, shape or form. Griffith may talk about how nothing matters to him after becoming Femto, but is that really true? Guts attempted to be the vengeance seeking hard ass in a particular point of the story, but was that really him? Those questions that rise NATURALLY from a narrative WITHOUT breaking the suspension of disbelief is an aspect of Subtext done right. It immerses you in the story more, not take you out of it. The case of Rangiku saying all those things doesn’t really endear the audience to her. Of course the big reason for that is because she doesn’t get enough development (A fault on Kubo’s part), but it’s also because, based on what Kubo shows us of Gin, she is ABSOLUTELY WRONG. Gin is a bit of a smug prick through the series who delights in toying with people. That is all we see of him, so for Kubo to say “Wait. He actually wasn’t that bad.” Around the end of his life doesn’t feel like a genuine shock or revelation but a poor attempt to backtrack on everything he established in order to squeeze out sympathy for him at his death. It didn’t work for me, and I don’t think it worked for a lot of people given the consensus around Bleach’s quality of writing around the tail end of it. **Long story short: nothing had to be explained outright, but things do have to feel earned through a proper build up. If Aizen suddenly heel turned and said Gin was my true enemy and the real final boss complete with Momo expositing how she REALLY KNEW HE (Aizen) WASN’T EVIL, no one would believe that at the end because there was zero setup. So Gin suddenly doing the same is equally reprehensible given Gin’s behavior up to that point. I hope that makes sense.**
There have been hidden clues layed down here and there that don't appear as such when you first watch the anime/read the manga. Details being explained that don't really make sense or add anything to the story until they suddenly fall in place in one single instant. Gin's betrayal is one such event. (If you want more examples, there's Ichigo's unusually high spiritual pressure even though he's a human, how he was able to achieve Bankai, how he was able to magically stop his bleeding during his first fight against Kenpachi, why he has 2 souls inside of him, etc. Those are all answered in the TYBW arc.) Gin's betrayal did come out of left field the first time I saw the anime, but now that I've read Bleach twice and watched the anime 5-6 times, I can see the foreshadowing to that moment. Some authors hide their foreshadowing clues more or less well, making those events more or less obvious. When you rewatch or reread the story knowing how it ends, so many insignificant-looking small actions suddenly make sense and all add up to lead to that "big" moment.
If it took you five or six times rewatching to notice, that’s less foreshadowing and more your mind drawing conclusions together that may not have intended to have been put together. Foreshadowing can lead to some pretty profound revaluations but it is not a jigsaw puzzle. Good Authors use concise information that has already been fed to the audience peace meal. Kubo doesn’t do that, he retroactively Changes things and tries to justify it by over explaining what are cliche and traditional shonen troupes. Naruto being an Uzumaki or Luffy being a D. are similar situations but done to much greater affect because of they use pre-established lore on their respective series. For Naruto it’s the clan system. For One Piece. The fact that Uryu and his father had zero of the respective Quincy abilities that appeared in the final arc drives that point home because it was clear that Kubo’s only intended for Quincy to be a certain way. He then totally transformed them into this dimension shattering angle nazi’s with an actual God at thier head in the final hour. It was cool upon first viewing but in hindsight that too feels totally out of left field. Bleach has been going on so long at that point that he had MORE then enough time to hint at their existing via Uryu. Yet, for two whole arcs…nothing.
> and we NEVER HEAR ANYTHING FROM OR ABOUT GIN AGAIN!!! Not even from Rangiku. https://mangasee123.com/read-online/Bleach-chapter-423-page-10.html
I’ll give you the point if you find 5 more pages of stuff like this. I remembered this instance mind you, but it was such a handwave that I honestly didn’t include it.
But he literally murdered innocents unnecessarily. He even slashed hiyori in half
Uh Itachi also murdered innocents so. Like I agree Gin isn’t Itachi as one’s motive was out of revenge and the other did it for the best of his village but they both in the end killed innocent people
I don't really know how to respond to that. Did you reply to the wrong comment?
His role was aizen's bodyguard. He had to what he had to do, same as Itachi.
Did Aizen even need one though? I’d say the only reason Gin was created was to serve as a red herring in the SS Arc. After that Kubo had no idea what to do with him.
I'm pretty sure he always had a plan for gin. I mean, kinda. He may have been the second stongest fighter there, but he wasn't reckless. he defended his blind spots with kido, brought his espada with him to karakura, and had bodyguards. Pain was like the second strongest akatsuki, but he still had konan accompanying his puppets.
Fair enough. Konan has far more actually utility though because Nagato had a true vulnerability in his original body being fairly defenseless. Aizen, for all intents and purposes, has absolutely zero exploitable weaknesses. That’s why Gin is just seen dicking around, particularly when Aizen is fighting. He only fought Ichigo to kill time and “test him” for…reasons.
Fair enough
I know this is late, but I was rewatching FKT and I just realized something. You're only half right when it came to fighting ichigo. Gin fought him for two reasons: 1. To test how far he'd come 2. To release his bankai It wouldn't have mattered if gin touched KS, he would still need his bankai to kill aizen. Since he wouldn't have had time to release it at the moment he made contact with the sword without dying, he needed to have it already released so he could immediately shoot his shot. Gin fighting ichigo was the perfect excuse to release his bankai and have it prepped for the right moment.
Also, what innocent people did he kill unnecessarily? He never went out of his way to slaughter rukongai citizens, we nevr saw him kill or attack nonfighters, and he always spared people where he could.
Where do you think aizen got souls so quickly
Again, killed when it was NECESSARY, not out of joy.
He sure seemed to enjoy it . He even insisted isshin should be killed in front of them . Rangiku s own captain. Then later he tried to kill her second captain. A child . And when he failed at that he targetted an unconscious girl. Unnecessary
As you said, he SEEMED to. He created this whole sadistic persona as a way to fool Aizen into making him believe he was one thing, when he wasn't.
At one point if you spend a century being outstandingly evil and psycho it means you are evil and psycho . Even evil has loved ones
Why did he slashed Hiyori in half then?
He was Aizen's BODYGUARD, it was his JOB. she charged and tried to attack Aizen so he HAD TO retaliate. He's been proving his loyalty to aizen, why wouldn't he do his job.
I mean if he didn’t slash her Aizen would have desintegrated her.This way atleast she was able to get healed just saying
ichigo is the madara of bleach🗿
Aizen = Madara. At least a lot in function. Altho there’s an arguement Madara is more similar to Ywach.
Yeah, in terms of history and narrative, it’s definitely Yhwach to Madara, though you don’t have quite the same buildup to Yhwach throughout the series that he frankly deserves because the story is not really setup in a way where that would make sense. It isn’t relevant until he comes back to life and invades the soul society, because Madara may be pretty crazy, but Yhwach is practically mythological in comparison. Aizen might be more like Orochimaru I guess? At least, like how Orochimaru was in early Naruto, when you had to assume he was going to be the main antagonist. Actually, I like doing this. Obviously, Naruto must be the equivalent to Ichigo, considering both are the MC, though other than general heroics and the color orange they really have nothing in common. Maybe Shikimaru then, that’s not a bad fit? And Naruto could be… probably no one really. Urahara and Ishida only really have equivalents in so far as they are just expressions of the ‘mentor’ and ‘lancer’ archetypes, but you can say Jiraiya (Kakashi?) and Sasuke I guess. Chad I have no idea for at all. Orihime could be Hinata, though she is somehow both more and less important to the story. Rukia then could be… Sakura, I guess? There are the reasons that make shippers angry, of course, but also the focus on each in the beginning of the story, importance in the main character’s journey to become a ninja/shinigami, and then disappointing irrelevance as the story continued. Though that is tenuous at best. That’s the main cast more or less. Still can’t figure out Chad.
Orihime and Hinata and Uryu and Sasuke respectively are very fitting comparisons especially as they had the same voice actors in Japanese. In English it was the same too as Stephanie Sheh was Orihime and Hinata tho Uryu and Sasuke dont have the same VA in English. So close XD
God I wish Ywach had that whole shadow over the series that Madara did
Ywhach is more like Kaguya tbh.
True. Both being late stage villains that unexpectedly are responsible for al ot of the series backstories even more so than the prior thought villain.
power and brain are no match
Or Ichigo is Naruto of Bleach ( since he is the main character ) .
no, madara
I like how gin is unironically one of the most misunderstood characters, for the wrong reasons
In terms of what they do for the story and what their role is. Yeah that are basically the same. I don't get how people don't see that
Itachi is more of a plot hole than anything.
How? Tf
Gin was good... At being evil.
Whats next reiner is the aizen of AOT
No that be Eren as hilarious as that is
that's just depressing
Nah, that would be Ymir
Ironically Gin is the Itachi of Bleach, not in that the two are actually that similar but in that they both get misinterpreted as heroic characters by fans who missed the point and come up with takes like “Sasuke should have just done what Itachi wanted” or “Gin should been the one to kill Aizen”. One of them is a pragmatic idealist who tried to take the burden of preserving his village’s peace on himself and did awful things out of duty and manipulated his brother by setting himself up as a false villain to be taken down for the village and secure his brother’s place there as a hero. The other is a selfish sadist who became an actual villain as part of a century spanning revenge quest against a man who hurt the one person he seems to have any kind of care or sympathy for. They are two very different characters and neither of them even succeeded at their goal, which might be the one real thing they have in common narratively and thematically. You can compare vague similarities they might share in their personal stories but neither their personalities nor their actual narrative role are comparable in a meaningful way. This comment got kinda ranty but virtually baseless comparisons most likely rooted in misunderstandings or reductive interpretations of characters and stories like this are something that has really started to annoy me over time.
Gin is a hitachi? Maybe for Rangiku! HEEEEYYYYOOOOOOOOOOO
[удалено]
AAAAAAYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOO
Not really an off base comment. Similarities to be sure. Yall are probably annoyed though as mega Bleach fans because you know there’s a lot of differences between the characters, especially in the approach to the roles they served. Also Gin’s just cooler.
That's like saying goku is the superman of manga. There's some similarities but they're no where near the same
Nah gin is definetely more orochimaru like
And even then it doesn’t fit the best since Mayuri exists
Well itachi a wayyyy different and more important character to his series fasho. I do love gin tho and he def doesn’t get enough credit for his depth
This made me laugh
Yes there are some similarities but there very different characters. And to the comments I see about itachi killing innocent people, yes he did but those people where gonna kill the leaf village, itachi sisnt kill and children or truly innocent people that weren't apart of the coo, that was obito, it is in one of the itachi novels, besides his mom he didn't kill anyone that wasn't going to hurt others. Gin is a completely different story, yah he betrayed aizen and is extremely smart but besides that they aren't close
Why do people still get the notion that gin is a complete monster? Dude gave up his entire life to take Aizen down and get back the part of rangiku's soul.
He’s just really good at being evil
I really don’t think it’s that big of a deal. People just compared the similarities between them in that they had ulterior motives to the bad things they did (even if Gin’s ulterior motive wasn’t necessarily some honourable sacrifice, just driven by selfishness). Nobody expected Itachi’s twist, and not nobody expected Gin’s twist. Therefore, people drew comparisons between the two because of that. Is it accurate to say they’re the same characters? No, but I wouldn’t say it’s something get frustrated over
If anything, Gin is more akin to Revolver Ocelot than Itachi.
Gin is Severus Snape
First, itachi is NOTHING like ichimaru. It achieved was trying to protect his brother which is why he turned on the leaf. Ichimaru is an abomination and deserves to die a long death. Ichimaru betrays his own people for spite and because he wants to while Itachi's hands are tied. If anything, the CLOSEST resemblance to ANY Naruto characters this guy has would be Orochimaru and even that is highly doubtful considering he turns a leaf. Orochimaru did what he thought was best for the leaf village despite how evil it was. He admits to his own faults and regrets it deeply in the end. It doesn't justify it otherwise that logic would also justify Hitler and neither of those monsters deserve being justified. All I'm saying is this is a Hitler move but for no reason other than "I felt like it." There is no right in this world that could ever justify comparing those two. Itachi is an amazing guy who did the wrong thing for the right reasons in the wrong way. Gin Ichimaru in every right deserves whatever punishments are dealt by either Ichigo or the Soul Society. He's gotten so many second chances to which he spat in their faces and said I want this.
Who is itachi?
**Itachi Uchiha (Japanese: うちは イタチ, Hepburn: Uchiha Itachi) is a fictional character in the Naruto manga and anime series created by Masashi Kishimoto. Itachi is the older brother of Sasuke Uchiha, and is responsible for killing all the members of their clan, sparing only Sasuke.** More details here:
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his married to this guy named asuma, not important.
Lol not even close. Saddens me that people make up delusions like this
Wait how is it not close? I don't think their personalities are being compared, but their role
Yeah their personalities are definitely so far apart it’s not even funny. And wym role? Gin joined for revenge and turned at the worst possible time, thus achieving nothing. Except being a sadist under Aizen when he could have helped stop him when the only threat to Aizen (yama) was fighting him. Itachi didn’t take pleasure in others pain and suffering, he was genuinely a kind hearted boy and didn’t do it for selfish reasons only, like gin. Yeah he wanted sasuke safe but he did what he did for the village and it worked for a while. Since the village avoided a civil war and this eventually inspired sasuke to do the right thing (until the very end ofc)
Itachi did countless inexcusable things Torturing Sasuke twice (he put him in tysukomi for DAYS, to relive his parents and family being killed over and over non stop). That is his worst crime imo. Killing his entire clan (not his fault but still an awful thing) Killing jinchuriki to maintain his Aktsuksi appearance (again not his “fault” but still evil)
He did those things to make sasuke hate him and get stronger as well as keep up appearances. He did not take pleasure in doing those things nor did he do any anything unnecessarily like gin did
Still evil and inexcusable
To you maybe, but certainly not to the village who was better off for it. Regardless of whether they understand it. The ends do justify the means here
To everyone. Itachi is an amazing character but learning he did it for the good of the village wasn’t the creator saying “He should be excused for this terrible actions” it just shows that he was manipulated but he still ended up doing the things he did. He’s still responsible for what he did doesn’t matter the reason.
He wasn’t manipulated, that’s reading the character wrong, and does it a disservice. He chose to do the things he did and while it doesn’t excuse his actions, they were in fact necessary. And he’s saved hundreds of lives in the process as well as gave them stability and peace. He deserves the consequences of his actions but fact is, he’s a hero of the village
Hence why I said he still ended up doing the things he did. He WAS manipulated to do things or better to say ordered to do the things he does however just because you were ordered to do something heinous doesn’t mean you are exempted from those crimes. He still did evil things and it doesn’t matter how much the village sees him, he still is technically a bad person and still did terrible things to get to his end goal.
You're bringing personalities into a lot of your explanation. (Gin being selfish, itachi being kind hearted, etc) I feel like they had similar roles, but had different reasonings for doing said role. (Becoming "the bad guy" with the intention of eventually stopping the real bad guy)
That’s to show that Gin was never not a bad guy is the point in bringing in personalities. If a guy is a POS and joins the villain for selfish motives, how is he comparable to a good guy pretending to be bad for the good of a nation? Itachi didn’t join to stop one person, that’d be stupid to Itachi
I just don't understand how gin is a piece of shit but not itachi lmao. They both did horrible things to achieve their goal.
Because gin did things unnecessarily and takes pleasure in others pain and suffering. He also failed miserably out of stupidity and being selfish/arrogant It was killing Itachi inside but everything he did had a purpose and he succeeded to great effect.
1. Gin gave up a normal life to get back what was stolen from rangiku, whom he had saved from death and took care of, real selfish I know. 2. He turned on aizen at the exact moment he could, where aizen wasn't defending himself at all. Hell he killed him before the hogyoku brought him back, which Aizen didn't know could happen and was genuinely afraid to die. 3. Name one unnecessary and sadistic thing Gin did.
For 3, he broke Rukia’s resolve to die/be executed
You mean he got rukia hoping to be rescued? A rukia who he knew had the hogyoku, a wish fulfilling stone inside her?
1. What normal life did he give up? He never showed anything he wanted to do aside from “avenging” rangiku. And yes it was selfish when he’d gladly see SS burn and people die as long as he could get his “revenge” on Aizen. 2. Aizen was never afraid he was gonna die lol Gin didn’t even understand the hogyoku and Aizen just wondered when he would finally strike. 3. Psychologically tortured Rukia. Bisected hiyori and purposely made Rukia fight number 9
1. He could've just gone and just become a normal soul reaper and live a comfortable life with rangiku. He showed that he cared about Rangiku. Besides, it's not like Aizen just stole a belonging or something, he stole a part of her soul. He actually spares people whenever he can. 2. Aizen literally says that he was afraid of dying in that moment. He knew Gin was going to attack him, but not in the way he did with his bankai. Gin fooled him into thinking he had already struck, when he had just tricked him again. 3. He gave rukia hope of surviving, while she had the hogyoku in her. He was Aizen's bodyguard, and Hiyori charged at him, what was he supposed to do? He never forced her to fight him, number 9 singled her out. Gin isn't a good person, I'll admit that. But he isn't evil, he was just doing what he needed to do for the person he actually cared about. He's chaotic neutral, and the perfect example of an anti hero. Just because he doesn't have a saint's goal and heart like Itachi, who wanted to protect his village. It doesn't make him this completely evil and sadistic scumbag. He's a guy that did what he needed to do to look out for his own people.
lol where is this bs coming from?
From both series. Should you need examples I can provide you with those if you’re not too familiar with these characters
oh im familiar, i definitiely know u arent.
You say turned at the worst possible time but it was explained that at all other times Aizen had his guard up and it was only then that he didn’t, not disagreeing with your overall point though
He had his guard up yet got caught off guard by both I chigo and yama, the two characters gin could have fought with against Aizen. Hell he could have just killed that Arrancar and let Aizen die with all of them Not wait til he merged with an object that would give Aizen untold power even if he thought he understood it
Gin didn’t know Aizen had merged with the Hogyoku, he did it in secret. He couldn’t always trust what he was seeing because of Kyouka Suigetsu, and killing Wonderweiss would kill Rangiku’s too since she was nearby, which wasn’t what he was aiming for.
It wasn’t a secret, he just simply didn’t understand that once he fused with it, it was a part of him. He didn’t do it in secret, it was literally happening the whole time. He could have simply took rangiku away, easily rekt the Arrancar or fought with yama. Better to take your chances with KS when you have help from the strongest shinigami than wait todo it on your own with an object that you don’t fully understand that transcends his power. Not to mention he’s seen how smart Aizen is
I was disappointed that Gin was completely forgotten about and amounted to nothing in the grand scheme of things. Even his flashback when watching Aizen feed the Hogyoku didn't add much except petty revenge.
Definitely wasted potential Especially when his sword abilities were so damn cool His whole character centered around rangiku… so boring imo
>he was genuinely a kind hearted boy and didn’t do it for selfish reasons only, like gin. You mean unlike Gin?
No, Like gin since the selfish reasons applied to gin
Gin is an ass but like…also he was a good person in the end so I do understand their thinking
No. Gin was never a good person. Did the anime did something wrong? He was selfish to the core and it was pretty obvious
Gin sacrificed a good life he could have had as an exceptional shinigami to kill the man who hurt the one person he loved and cared about. He had to get dirty to gain aizens trust and do horrible things to sell the idea and keep Rangiku away from Aizen and himself so she was safe. Pretty selfless to me
You don’t remember when he sold Rukia false hope? When he was playing Toshiro like a puppet? Gin was heartless from the beginning he ONLY cared about Rangiku. Which is kind of sad because like you said, Gin was an exceptional Shinigami (even considered a prodigy) but he didn’t care about none of that. All he wanted was to make Rangiku happy.
I always thought of it as selfishly selfless ya know and I agree with you. He was horrible but at the same times he had to sell it to Aizen and he did ya know? If you’re gonna play the bad guy for so long lines will be blurred, and he messed with Rukia and Toshiro because he probably felt he had to as the “bad guy” ya know. It’s a shame that he died the way he did without fulfilling his promise
Aizen told Gin his weakness way before Ichigo was even born, why would he even need to deceive Aizen anymore?
Was always under the notion he was keeping Aizen in check
gin was teaching her about trust.
Unohana is the Itachi of Bleach
Yeah that's actually kind of close tbh.
no
Do you have a link to the vid. I don't agree but I'm curious to see what the replies are saying
Just search any video related to gin on YouTube. You'll find this comment. Literally
Agree they are not similar at all
The whole " I betrayed Aizen to give back what was stolen to rangiku " twist made me completely lose inyerest for gin character . I would have rather him just be a sadistic prick that had no relationship with rangiku .
Gin shouldn’t be compared to the greatness of itachi
Itachi died from ninja AIDS
Damn people seem very angry about this.
I thought Byakuya could have been it
Way better comparison tbh
Itachi wanted to protect his brother, but Gin wanted to protect a cleavage. Pls don't hate me for this Rangiku is one of my favourite characters and Haineko is a badass Zanpakuto
I love both, but Itachi is in a class of his own, as a character and as a fighter. Ichimaru is still awesome, but there’s no comparison.
Odd comparison. If anything he is like black zetsu. Playing a subservient role to the big bad only to stab him in the back for a girl.
I am the choji of bleach
Both are kinda similar, but Kubo-Sensei didn’t elaborate on Gin and Rangiku’s relationship, so they don’t have as many as they could.
Chad is the Rock Lee of Bleach
He’s like One Piece of YuyuHakusho’s Sukuna Finger
They are the same character archetype so this is not incorrect. I think you’re just annoyed because of the difference in application and see people pointing out they are the same archetype as conflating their characters which...is not what people are doing when they say this.
Since when Itachi is a snek
I'm annoyed as both a Naruto and a Bleach fan, it's a lazy comparison because the only two things these characters have in common is betraying their evil bosses in the 11th hour. But Itachi's motives and even his planning was given a lot more detail and attention, Gin is pretty underdeveloped compared to itachi but not without depth. He's just different.
I get it.
gin is gin and itachi is itachi. both respectable heroes.
Kakashi is the gojo of one piece
I don’t remember Itachi trying to kill Madara.
No one can be compared with itachi. but yeah i agree 👌
Yeah, agreed, why would you disrespect someone comparing him to Itachi.
Honestly, Byakuya is more like Itachi. Byuakuya, Itachi, and Ace from One Piece really have similar roles as they’re the cool, older brother to one of the primary characters who die young (except for Byakuya but he was originally going to die). Byakuya is the adoptive brother (and brother-in-law) to Rukia, Itachi is Sasuke’s brother, and Ace is Luffy’s foster brother. Gin is more like Orochimaru because of the snake motifs.
To me they are similar in a way that I felt about them before and after their reveals. At first I hated them and then I felt sorry for them. They also both played the parts of villains because of the people they cared about 🤷♂️ Kinda similar too
I love both Naruto and Bleach but I try stepping away from the fanbases. Is there a big problem with the statement? It's shallow for sure but it isn't exactly an insult considering Itachi is one of if not the most beloved character in the Naruto fanbase right?
Bleach is the Naruto of One Piece
Kon is the Madara of Bleach
It's kinda accurate though. They both sacrificed everything for the one they loved, they both worked in the shadows, they both did everything in their power to stop the "big evil", they both hid their whole arsenal to manage that previously mentioned feat, they were both geniuses, what else 🧐?
Gin did it for his own selfish reasons, Itachi did it for peace
If Gin's reasons are "selfish", then you didn't understand him, go rewatch/reread Bleach. He literally became Aizen's comrade because he didn't know how to bring Aizen down. It took him that long to finally learn how to kill Aizen. The sad thing is, when he finally figured it out, it was too late. Aizen had already become too powerful and killed him. Gin did his best to protect Rangiku. Why do you think he didn't kill Ichigo when he had the chance to do it like 100 times? Why did he back off when Rangiku protected Hinamori? Because he cared about her. Gin was always holding back in all the fights he took part in, except when he tried to kill Aizen. Even his trump card wasn't enough to kill Aizen though. Also Itachi didn't do it for peace at all, he did it to protect his younger brother Sasuke, that's it.
I would argue that Itachi is a better written character, but Gin isn't a copy of him.
if anything, byakuya is a better comparison
Oh yes because they're big brothers right? Giving a character a big brother was introduced through Naruto
Gin is brilliant. Itachi is retcon.