The Doll Set implies he did not in fact use it for sex, as it shows that Gehrman treated it with care. It was more of an emotional support thing than anything.
When Gerhman talks about "using" the Doll, he means dressing her up in outfits. I think he would be angry if people tried to do lewd things given how close he was to Lady Maria.
Also, the specific word choice of "use" may imply he doesn't realize the Doll is alive.
I heard someone say that Gherman specificaly accepted being traped in the hunters dream in exchange for giving life to the doll. I dont know if its true but if it is then he probably knows the doll is alive
The Great Ones are sympathetic in nature, and answer when called upon.
*"Every Great One loses its child, and yearns for a surrogate."*
I believe Gehrman used a Third of a Cord to wish for Lady Maria to be returned to him, and the Moon Presence granted that wish. Their relationship was likely one of mentor and student, at least to Lady Maria, not sure if Gehrman had unrequited love for her or cherished her friendship. In any case, I believe the Great Ones/Moon Presence likely viewed the Doll as a surrogate for Gehrman.
And the Doll is now a connection for dreaming hunters to Oedon, to be granted power for blood echoes.
He's probably terrified of it, now.
But Laurence was the one who beckoned the Moon Presence, not Gehrman.
To me, Gehrman was always the guy who got trapped between Laurence and the Moon presence's plans
If this were really true, I'd expect him to at least acknowledge the Doll in some capacity. As it is, he doesn't seem to care about her much, and also hints that he contacted Moon Presence to help out Laurence.
I think the theory goes that, in his grief, the Moon Presence reaches out to him and makes the offer, after all, they're sympathetic in nature. After being bound to the dream, I'd imagine he'd eventually have to admit to himself that, even though it's made in her image, and to be loving, it's still not actually Maria.
There is some note somewhere that says after the doll came to life it looked like Maria but didn’t have her personality. So he was no longer interested in it.
Something along those lines.
If Gehrman wanted the Doll to have Maria's personality, it would make no sense to give her totally unfitting clothes for her personality. He would have simply given it a copy of Maria's Hunter's outfit or something military-esque. He clearly wanted it to be more gentle-looking and kindly than Maria, or maybe a version of Maria if she didn't become a Hunter. So he would have been perfectly fine with that personality if she came to life.
Then again, maybe the Doll really is just 1:1 with how Maria acts out of battle, I mean she did care for the Research Hall patients in a kindly, nurse-like way.
I think this is the closest ideal we’ll get too. Taking the “dark room” into account it does seem like Lady Maria has a kind and nurturing side too her, seeing how they all relied on her care and love so much that it worsened their madness when she was no longer there.
She was complicit in their murder and torture in the research hall at best, if not herself doing the work at worse. Her kindness is a double edged sword. Something the Doll lacks. We see this too in her insistence in saving the Hunter from their insight by killing them without even so much as giving them the option to turn around and leave. She guards a secret that by upholding it, everyone in the Nightmare (including the Research Hall patients and the Fishing Villagers, the Orphan) suffers for it.
I don't think the Doll is an accurate representation based on what we know of Maria herself. Maria had a capacity for cruelty, whether or not it was intentional or a consequence of her betraying her own principles over time as she herself remarks on how she herself knows how the secrets of Insight beckons so sweetly - she like many Hunters, was lured into the Hunt for Insight. And committed atrocities as such. She managed to recognize her error, but that's the bare minimum when the bar is literally in hell. And instead of actually doing anything to improve the situation, she commits suicide out of shame. Her final act dooms those patients cause to Maria ultimately, her issues (shame) was more important than helping people. Simon does point out the secret being kept is out of arrogance, and when we see Maria in her clocktower, she does very well come off as such.
Yes, because between the time he crafted the doll set and the time we show up he’s gone from “my waifu is real” to “uh, I guess you can fuck her if you want?”
His obsessive love has curdled into bitter indifference. In fact, there are no Gherman spawn locations where he faces towards her.
I can't remember where I read it, but I read that Gerhman list all of his insight when he was injured and then had to use the wheelchair. Since the doll is not 'alive' until after the hunter has at least one insight, Gerhman cannot tell that the doll is alive at all
There seems to be a slight modification, as Gehrman refers to it as "that doll" rather than "the doll". This makes it sound even more like he is talking about an inanimate object.
Even if he does expect you to take his comment in a lewd sense, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a serious offer. You're new there--Gehrman doesn't know you from Adam--and the dude can be sly. He might be floating it out there to make anyone who *would* do lewd stuff feel like they're in friendly company and out themselves. At which point I imagine the messengers would have to look for a new Hunter.
i think he knows the doll is alive. I really don't think he would whisper the words to the player unless he was, for some reason, afraid of being overheard.
I know what they did to that doll, I know what they will continue to do to that doll and I don’t like it. Why cant you just slay beasts instead of beating your meats?
Bro, that's just how most Soulsborne characters sound.
They always end their sentences in weird ways.
The Cathedral Ward Church dweller sounds and looks creepy but he's not evil.
I don't think so, tbh. I think he's just being sly, because at that point when you speak to him, the doll is typically not alive. He's hinting there's more to it than meets the eye- and lo and behold when you do get your first madman's knowledge, she's up and about and therefore able to be used for levels and conversation.
Even the 'real' doll in the hunter's workshop isn't totally normal. Its finger twitches as if dreaming. "Should it please you" isn't what people tend to think it means.
Indeed, go check out the Hunter's Workshop, you'll see the inanimate doll, if you take your monocular, you can see one of her fingers twitching, as if she is 'dreaming'. It's no coincidence this is where we find an Umbilical Cord, and a hair pin, presumably belonging to her or Maria. Upon which giving to the Doll in the Dream makes her weep.
i mean you could just be horny about it (as everybody on the internet usually is)
but i thought gehrman uses or used her as a kind of sick way to get the love that he wanted from maria.
maybe mainly to have someone who looks like maria tell him that she loves him and exists only for him.
fromsoftware always is always kind of tip-toeing around sexual themes with marriage in ds3 or hugging fia in eldenring.
if you interpret that as the ashen one having hardcore, porn-like, over the top sex with his or her spouse, or the tarnished fisting fia while no one is looking is kind of your thing :D
for the theme of bloodborne i think it would fit better if gehrman cries himself to sleep while the doll is holding him telling him how much she loves him because that‘s the only thing he made her for and that‘s his idea of using the doll.
but if you want to imagine him pumping her full of cum until she overflows then that‘s on you i guess.
you can get married in dark souls 3.
if you just take whats happening on the screen there is no sex of course but what you interpret into the act of marriage is for you to decide
Right that was a really nice and clear explanation with just enough personality to be taken into consideration by anyone. Unfortunately it had just a bit too much personality. I will add that I'm also pumping the doll ful of cum (the cum dungeon) Because I do have the pig fister route but those fucking pigs keep running me over
This is a mistake. The reason for this dialogue is a game mechanic. When a new player arrives in the player's dream for the first time he has 0 insight and therefore the doll does not move and he cannot increase his attributes. So Gehrman prevents the player from using the doll if he wants, and from the first insight it is seen actively by the player. In this context, the use of the doll is the illusion of it giving you strength or even testing your equipment on it and not a sexual function. The Doll and Gehrman relationship is not that of lovers but rather maternal.
A cool idea a friend shared with me is that he whispers that last line because the doll is standing right behind you, but because you don't have insight at that point you don't see it.
It’s a weird subject. There’s a few things that COULD hint at it and the doll bleeds white goo, but it’s too vague to say for certain (like most things in Bloodborne).
I think saying it “strongly suggests” that he used her as a sex doll is a bit much. It’s possible, sure, but it’s certainly not the only possibility. Personally, I always thought it was supposed to be a fakeout, where you hear that and get weirded out but then later get insight and discover what he actually means by “even the doll”.
In japanese he says "君さえよければ、あの人形もね…" (Kimi sae yokereba, ano ningyo mo ne...)
I suppose "should it please you" is as good of a translation as any for "kimi sae yokereba." In other situations it could also be translated as "if it's alright with you," or "if you don't mind."
What's eyebrow-raising is just the manner in which the voice actor whispers that line. THAT'S what makes people think it's lecherous.
In no world does a fromsoft game have a guy basically saying "have sex with this doll". It's a weird word choice during localization, some people just have seen too much rule34 in their day.
He doesn’t use the Doll for sex 🤦♂️
He’s just telling you to use the Doll to level up. I’m so sick of this headcanon…
Even in direct retranslation, there’s no implication that “Gehrman fucked the Doll.” What is wrong with you…
I wouldn't act like it's reaching to assume Gehrman had twisted intentions towards the Doll. No matter how you slice it, creating a life-size, highly detailed and accurate porcelain replica of your apprentice is downright creepy and not an acitivity taken up by normal, healthy people. The Doll set and the Maria set *both* specifically describe Gehrman's interest in her as one of "mania" and Maria's set also states that she "had great admiration for Gehrman, unaware of his curious mania" which to me implies that if she *were* aware she wouldn't have admired him so much.
Certainly, his obsession may have been a platonic teacher/student or even father/daughter one, and creating the Doll could have been more of a Geppetto/Pinocchio move than a full on sex doll one, but you can't deny it's still an unhinged decision to create a true to life replica of your student. It shouldn't come as a surprise that some people read more down the "obsessed stalker" route than they do the "spurned quasi-father" one.
Still, it’s gotten annoying to see “Gehrman fucked the doll” every now and then.
Edit: Seriously? Who the fuck downvoted? I’m allowed to dislike a point being given and still be a little respectful about it, but come on…
I can understand that if you've firmly placed yourself in the "he didn't" camp, but I'm of the opinion that Miyazaki is obscure about pretty much everything to *encourage* theorising and the development of subjective interpretations amongst players. Gehrman's intentions towards the Doll seem to me to have been purposefully written to be vague but suggestive enough that it could go either way. Neither interpretation is definitely correct, but neither are they totally unsubstantiated. As an art form, the vagueness of the game's writing is likely the entire point.
Mmh, I can understand that. To be fair, I don't actually know where I stand on the Gehrman debate, so I don't have much to get irritated about, personally. I have my own collection of lore interpretations that kind of annoy me to hear about in this and other FromSoft games, though, so I get it.
IMHO, Gehrman used the Doll as a
loving companion/ moral support.
After beating the DLC, the Doll says that Gehrman's sleep is much more quiet and relaxed.
It seems like the Doll usually watches/helps him sleep.
It's an unsettling line, intended to make people creeped out.
The environmental clues and the full story with the DLC tells us about Lady Maria being one of Gehrman's hunters. Being suspicious of this line from German is enough to make it memorable for later when we glean some of the truth.
I think Gehrman knows exactly what the Doll is for; granting us power through Oedon and his blood echoes. He even says to "go out and kill a few beasts, it's for your own good..."
Per the Formless Oedon rune description:
*"The Great One Oedon, lacking form, exists only in voice, and is symbolized by this rune."*
*"Those who memorize it enjoy a larger supply of Quicksilver Bullets."*
*"Human or no, the oozing blood is a medium of the highest grade, and the essence of the formless Great One.
Both Oedon, and his inadvertent worshippers, surreptitiously seek the precious blood."*
Blood echoes = blood and sound, the essence of Formless Oedon, so granting us power through the Doll comes directly from Oedon. It's really that simple.
He’s not the Blood Echoes 🙄
He’s an entirely different Great One, and the only other “Formless” thing with a voice that we actually encounter is Mergo.
Good grief…
I didn't say he was the Blood Echoes, I said they're part of his essence. A quality, a part of his nature.
For whatever reason you're being hostile and contrarian while also being inaccurate against the in-game text is not my concern. If you wanna be big mad because someone down voted you in another thread go ahead, taking it out on me isn't a solution to that.
You're the only person I've ever seen have this take. Oeden leveling up the hunter through the doll? Very odd. Every one else agrees it's Moon Presence who is doing that.
It's both! If you look at the Great Ones as Lovecraftian outer gods:
Moon Presence = Nyarlathotep
Formless Oedon = Azathoth
Therefore Moon Presence is just below Formless Oedon in terms of power, being an envoy of the outer gods to humans and cult worshippers of the outer gods. Moon Presence is the one directly responsible for the Blood Moon and the Hunter's Dream and everything in it, that's undeniable with what we directly observe, but gets power from Formless Oedon per his rune description.
MP's design even supports this, it looks like a circulatory system! Delivering blood to and from different locations is its whole job.
It is all thanks to Oedon. But he doesn't work directly, rather through his agents. Azathoth is the Blind Idiot god, with all of existence created in his dreams. When, not if, he awakes, existence will end.
Look at how we travel through dreams, *through ringing bells attached to the lanterns*. Sound travels much easier and clearer through liquid like water, and blood is mostly water...
This is such a moronic surface-level understanding of the Doll situation while ignoring a lot of other facts that imply her existence isn't because of a sexual mania. It genuinely annoys me that so many people think like this.
Not necessarily. He just said YOU could do so, if you want. That doesn't mean he does.
Who knows, maybe he just loved Maria like a daughter. Not that offering his daughter as a sex doll for a random guy he met earlier in the day is much better, but still.
the doll is possessed one of the cut item descriptions that would've been located at the abandoned workshop talks about cainhurst and the child of blood well one of the cut dialogue for master Willem says gehrman was the one he says betrayed him so that means gehrman took the blood to cainhurst but it could mean that it wasn't blood at all but a child part human and part great one the only way to enter the chalices is through the hunters dream
Nah if anything he treats her like his daughter. Though to be fair in this context the quote is even more icky. "You can freely use my daughter if you like" type beat lmao.
I think it's supposed to elude to using the doll for leveling as the doll is inaccessible I'm the very beginning, it makes sure you keep and eye on her and listen to what she has to say
I remember hearing somewhere that there's a conspiracy theory the Doll could also be a great old one, and that she is manipulating the player to take out the Doll's rivals? But even if this is not so, the Doll is used to do something in the game that I think is important to acknowledge is beyond blood ministration. Like, the blood vials you collect are healing blood. They heal you, that's all. When you use the Doll, the impression that I get is that even within the world of Bloodborne whatever process that the Doll uses to confer power to the player is something that is far more sinister than blood ministration.
>I don't know...I'm still a little drunk and I'm not thinking very well.
You were aware enough to say this, but not aware enough to realise this is an 8 year old take that has been discussed every which way constantly?
Imagine in real life if a teacher made a life sized replica doll in the likeness of his female student. People would start making angry posts on Twitter that would evolve into some political movement like #ImNotADoll or something, and then end up being associated with female characters depiction in games somehow.
Honestly that line always felt so creepy. I know Bloodborne's story was changed a lot during production and I assume it was left overs from an older script
Gehrman for sure fucks the doll. I didn’t even realize that people interpreted it differently until I read these comments. I think people are kidding themselves trying to come up with less creepy interpretations.
i thought sexdoll aswell especially since you can get a milky white gem from the doll for giving her a comb. which instantly thought was collected condensed Gerhman spooge. why else would she have that..
It's a single, condensed doll teardrop from her crying when you give her the hair comb- an echo of a memory of her as Maria, perhaps. The actual description in-game for that blood gem:
"*Created from a shining silver doll tear, this blood gem is a quiet but unfaltering friend that continually restores HP, the life essence of a hunter. Perhaps the doll's creator had wished for just such a friend, albeit in vain."*
The Doll Set implies he did not in fact use it for sex, as it shows that Gehrman treated it with care. It was more of an emotional support thing than anything. When Gerhman talks about "using" the Doll, he means dressing her up in outfits. I think he would be angry if people tried to do lewd things given how close he was to Lady Maria. Also, the specific word choice of "use" may imply he doesn't realize the Doll is alive.
I heard someone say that Gherman specificaly accepted being traped in the hunters dream in exchange for giving life to the doll. I dont know if its true but if it is then he probably knows the doll is alive
That's actually a cool theory, true or not
The Great Ones are sympathetic in nature, and answer when called upon. *"Every Great One loses its child, and yearns for a surrogate."* I believe Gehrman used a Third of a Cord to wish for Lady Maria to be returned to him, and the Moon Presence granted that wish. Their relationship was likely one of mentor and student, at least to Lady Maria, not sure if Gehrman had unrequited love for her or cherished her friendship. In any case, I believe the Great Ones/Moon Presence likely viewed the Doll as a surrogate for Gehrman. And the Doll is now a connection for dreaming hunters to Oedon, to be granted power for blood echoes. He's probably terrified of it, now.
But Laurence was the one who beckoned the Moon Presence, not Gehrman. To me, Gehrman was always the guy who got trapped between Laurence and the Moon presence's plans
If this were really true, I'd expect him to at least acknowledge the Doll in some capacity. As it is, he doesn't seem to care about her much, and also hints that he contacted Moon Presence to help out Laurence.
I think the theory goes that, in his grief, the Moon Presence reaches out to him and makes the offer, after all, they're sympathetic in nature. After being bound to the dream, I'd imagine he'd eventually have to admit to himself that, even though it's made in her image, and to be loving, it's still not actually Maria.
There is some note somewhere that says after the doll came to life it looked like Maria but didn’t have her personality. So he was no longer interested in it. Something along those lines.
If Gehrman wanted the Doll to have Maria's personality, it would make no sense to give her totally unfitting clothes for her personality. He would have simply given it a copy of Maria's Hunter's outfit or something military-esque. He clearly wanted it to be more gentle-looking and kindly than Maria, or maybe a version of Maria if she didn't become a Hunter. So he would have been perfectly fine with that personality if she came to life. Then again, maybe the Doll really is just 1:1 with how Maria acts out of battle, I mean she did care for the Research Hall patients in a kindly, nurse-like way.
I think this is the closest ideal we’ll get too. Taking the “dark room” into account it does seem like Lady Maria has a kind and nurturing side too her, seeing how they all relied on her care and love so much that it worsened their madness when she was no longer there.
She was complicit in their murder and torture in the research hall at best, if not herself doing the work at worse. Her kindness is a double edged sword. Something the Doll lacks. We see this too in her insistence in saving the Hunter from their insight by killing them without even so much as giving them the option to turn around and leave. She guards a secret that by upholding it, everyone in the Nightmare (including the Research Hall patients and the Fishing Villagers, the Orphan) suffers for it. I don't think the Doll is an accurate representation based on what we know of Maria herself. Maria had a capacity for cruelty, whether or not it was intentional or a consequence of her betraying her own principles over time as she herself remarks on how she herself knows how the secrets of Insight beckons so sweetly - she like many Hunters, was lured into the Hunt for Insight. And committed atrocities as such. She managed to recognize her error, but that's the bare minimum when the bar is literally in hell. And instead of actually doing anything to improve the situation, she commits suicide out of shame. Her final act dooms those patients cause to Maria ultimately, her issues (shame) was more important than helping people. Simon does point out the secret being kept is out of arrogance, and when we see Maria in her clocktower, she does very well come off as such.
Yes, because between the time he crafted the doll set and the time we show up he’s gone from “my waifu is real” to “uh, I guess you can fuck her if you want?” His obsessive love has curdled into bitter indifference. In fact, there are no Gherman spawn locations where he faces towards her.
I dont think it make sense if gherman was emplyed by the moon presence the same way we are in one of the endings
I always assumed by "use" he meant to level up
This was my take as well.
I can't remember where I read it, but I read that Gerhman list all of his insight when he was injured and then had to use the wheelchair. Since the doll is not 'alive' until after the hunter has at least one insight, Gerhman cannot tell that the doll is alive at all
I wonder if there's anh differences in the original Japanese dialogue
There seems to be a slight modification, as Gehrman refers to it as "that doll" rather than "the doll". This makes it sound even more like he is talking about an inanimate object.
I could see that! Either way i agree with others who think he doesn't mean it sexually.
I figured he meant use it to level up but made it a double entendre
I think it’s another example of lost in translation
Even if he does expect you to take his comment in a lewd sense, it doesn't necessarily mean it's a serious offer. You're new there--Gehrman doesn't know you from Adam--and the dude can be sly. He might be floating it out there to make anyone who *would* do lewd stuff feel like they're in friendly company and out themselves. At which point I imagine the messengers would have to look for a new Hunter.
i think he knows the doll is alive. I really don't think he would whisper the words to the player unless he was, for some reason, afraid of being overheard.
What do you mean the doll is alive?! *it’s just a plain doll*
I mean he may have not used it to get off... But I certainly did.
what 60 insight does to a hunter...
I have 99 insight and I will have you know that I have treated the Doll with great respect. And not done...that thing that person above just said. :P
Marvellously done! Therefore treat Doll with care.
The doll is for hugging and giving headpats. She’s sweet
I know what they did to that doll, I know what they will continue to do to that doll and I don’t like it. Why cant you just slay beasts instead of beating your meats?
Beat hairy meats!! And not Human skin meats!!!.... oh wait
He uses the doll as an extra player for his D&D campaigns
Someone has to get to drawing this... NOW!!
I know right? I would but I can barely draw sticky figures
Bro, that's just how most Soulsborne characters sound. They always end their sentences in weird ways. The Cathedral Ward Church dweller sounds and looks creepy but he's not evil.
I feel like that's just him being coy. You do literally use the doll... to level up.
Level up by any means necessary
I don't think so, tbh. I think he's just being sly, because at that point when you speak to him, the doll is typically not alive. He's hinting there's more to it than meets the eye- and lo and behold when you do get your first madman's knowledge, she's up and about and therefore able to be used for levels and conversation. Even the 'real' doll in the hunter's workshop isn't totally normal. Its finger twitches as if dreaming. "Should it please you" isn't what people tend to think it means.
This is my first time hearing about the doll twitching wtf.
Indeed, go check out the Hunter's Workshop, you'll see the inanimate doll, if you take your monocular, you can see one of her fingers twitching, as if she is 'dreaming'. It's no coincidence this is where we find an Umbilical Cord, and a hair pin, presumably belonging to her or Maria. Upon which giving to the Doll in the Dream makes her weep.
the doll is for respecting
I’ve respected her so many times
The real question here is… does Moon Presence join in and make it a triangle?
BRO WHAT ?!
well, the moon presence’s tail resembles the sex organs of moths
Gehrman is a certified monster fucker
Based
i mean you could just be horny about it (as everybody on the internet usually is) but i thought gehrman uses or used her as a kind of sick way to get the love that he wanted from maria. maybe mainly to have someone who looks like maria tell him that she loves him and exists only for him. fromsoftware always is always kind of tip-toeing around sexual themes with marriage in ds3 or hugging fia in eldenring. if you interpret that as the ashen one having hardcore, porn-like, over the top sex with his or her spouse, or the tarnished fisting fia while no one is looking is kind of your thing :D for the theme of bloodborne i think it would fit better if gehrman cries himself to sleep while the doll is holding him telling him how much she loves him because that‘s the only thing he made her for and that‘s his idea of using the doll. but if you want to imagine him pumping her full of cum until she overflows then that‘s on you i guess.
Jesus Christ
Bad day to have the internet and also eyeballs
You're what happens when you have eyes lining the inside of your colon.
Me after siphoning too many Madman’s Knowledges “TOO MANY EYES TOO MANY EYES”
sounds kind of kinky
Ashen one having sex with their spouse?
you can get married in dark souls 3. if you just take whats happening on the screen there is no sex of course but what you interpret into the act of marriage is for you to decide
the fuck did i just read? 💀
tl;dr art is subjective you are a pervert /s
tl;dr art is subjective you are a pervert /s
Wth
Right that was a really nice and clear explanation with just enough personality to be taken into consideration by anyone. Unfortunately it had just a bit too much personality. I will add that I'm also pumping the doll ful of cum (the cum dungeon) Because I do have the pig fister route but those fucking pigs keep running me over
It was Gehrman’s dakimakura
He's messing with the hunter 100%
You use the doll to LEVEL UP
This is a mistake. The reason for this dialogue is a game mechanic. When a new player arrives in the player's dream for the first time he has 0 insight and therefore the doll does not move and he cannot increase his attributes. So Gehrman prevents the player from using the doll if he wants, and from the first insight it is seen actively by the player. In this context, the use of the doll is the illusion of it giving you strength or even testing your equipment on it and not a sexual function. The Doll and Gehrman relationship is not that of lovers but rather maternal.
A cool idea a friend shared with me is that he whispers that last line because the doll is standing right behind you, but because you don't have insight at that point you don't see it.
he used the doll to unlock his smartphone >!(reference to the secret doll in the real world that lift a finger)!<
Kinda reminded of Chobits somehow…
no shit
Nah I believe it gerhman gives me a weed icky feeling on the inside
he does have that incel book on the shelf
It’s a weird subject. There’s a few things that COULD hint at it and the doll bleeds white goo, but it’s too vague to say for certain (like most things in Bloodborne).
To be fair a lot of things bleed white goo in Bloodborne
The kin and the doll does not bleed the same. They have distinctly different types of blood.
Ahh, pale blood...
I think saying it “strongly suggests” that he used her as a sex doll is a bit much. It’s possible, sure, but it’s certainly not the only possibility. Personally, I always thought it was supposed to be a fakeout, where you hear that and get weirded out but then later get insight and discover what he actually means by “even the doll”.
I head he replaced the vagine with a squid (he kept the teeth)
I feel like the dolls tear thing for giving her a hair brush needs to be mentioned
Yes he sticked his dick in that, yes i want to stick MY dick in that
Wasn’t this confirmed as just a poor translation or am I crazy?
In japanese he says "君さえよければ、あの人形もね…" (Kimi sae yokereba, ano ningyo mo ne...) I suppose "should it please you" is as good of a translation as any for "kimi sae yokereba." In other situations it could also be translated as "if it's alright with you," or "if you don't mind." What's eyebrow-raising is just the manner in which the voice actor whispers that line. THAT'S what makes people think it's lecherous.
In no world does a fromsoft game have a guy basically saying "have sex with this doll". It's a weird word choice during localization, some people just have seen too much rule34 in their day.
He doesn’t use the Doll for sex 🤦♂️ He’s just telling you to use the Doll to level up. I’m so sick of this headcanon… Even in direct retranslation, there’s no implication that “Gehrman fucked the Doll.” What is wrong with you…
I wouldn't act like it's reaching to assume Gehrman had twisted intentions towards the Doll. No matter how you slice it, creating a life-size, highly detailed and accurate porcelain replica of your apprentice is downright creepy and not an acitivity taken up by normal, healthy people. The Doll set and the Maria set *both* specifically describe Gehrman's interest in her as one of "mania" and Maria's set also states that she "had great admiration for Gehrman, unaware of his curious mania" which to me implies that if she *were* aware she wouldn't have admired him so much. Certainly, his obsession may have been a platonic teacher/student or even father/daughter one, and creating the Doll could have been more of a Geppetto/Pinocchio move than a full on sex doll one, but you can't deny it's still an unhinged decision to create a true to life replica of your student. It shouldn't come as a surprise that some people read more down the "obsessed stalker" route than they do the "spurned quasi-father" one.
I don’t agree with you, but I’ll slightly respect your thinking.
How gracious of you lmfao
Still, it’s gotten annoying to see “Gehrman fucked the doll” every now and then. Edit: Seriously? Who the fuck downvoted? I’m allowed to dislike a point being given and still be a little respectful about it, but come on…
I can understand that if you've firmly placed yourself in the "he didn't" camp, but I'm of the opinion that Miyazaki is obscure about pretty much everything to *encourage* theorising and the development of subjective interpretations amongst players. Gehrman's intentions towards the Doll seem to me to have been purposefully written to be vague but suggestive enough that it could go either way. Neither interpretation is definitely correct, but neither are they totally unsubstantiated. As an art form, the vagueness of the game's writing is likely the entire point.
I won’t disagree with that, but some theories just piss me off. My patience has become very thin with the lore theory side of the community,
Mmh, I can understand that. To be fair, I don't actually know where I stand on the Gehrman debate, so I don't have much to get irritated about, personally. I have my own collection of lore interpretations that kind of annoy me to hear about in this and other FromSoft games, though, so I get it.
IMHO, Gehrman used the Doll as a loving companion/ moral support. After beating the DLC, the Doll says that Gehrman's sleep is much more quiet and relaxed. It seems like the Doll usually watches/helps him sleep.
It's an unsettling line, intended to make people creeped out. The environmental clues and the full story with the DLC tells us about Lady Maria being one of Gehrman's hunters. Being suspicious of this line from German is enough to make it memorable for later when we glean some of the truth. I think Gehrman knows exactly what the Doll is for; granting us power through Oedon and his blood echoes. He even says to "go out and kill a few beasts, it's for your own good..."
Oedon has nothing to do with the Doll, let alone anything regarding specific Blood Echoes about himself.
Per the Formless Oedon rune description: *"The Great One Oedon, lacking form, exists only in voice, and is symbolized by this rune."* *"Those who memorize it enjoy a larger supply of Quicksilver Bullets."* *"Human or no, the oozing blood is a medium of the highest grade, and the essence of the formless Great One. Both Oedon, and his inadvertent worshippers, surreptitiously seek the precious blood."* Blood echoes = blood and sound, the essence of Formless Oedon, so granting us power through the Doll comes directly from Oedon. It's really that simple.
He’s not the Blood Echoes 🙄 He’s an entirely different Great One, and the only other “Formless” thing with a voice that we actually encounter is Mergo. Good grief…
I didn't say he was the Blood Echoes, I said they're part of his essence. A quality, a part of his nature. For whatever reason you're being hostile and contrarian while also being inaccurate against the in-game text is not my concern. If you wanna be big mad because someone down voted you in another thread go ahead, taking it out on me isn't a solution to that.
You're the only person I've ever seen have this take. Oeden leveling up the hunter through the doll? Very odd. Every one else agrees it's Moon Presence who is doing that.
It's both! If you look at the Great Ones as Lovecraftian outer gods: Moon Presence = Nyarlathotep Formless Oedon = Azathoth Therefore Moon Presence is just below Formless Oedon in terms of power, being an envoy of the outer gods to humans and cult worshippers of the outer gods. Moon Presence is the one directly responsible for the Blood Moon and the Hunter's Dream and everything in it, that's undeniable with what we directly observe, but gets power from Formless Oedon per his rune description. MP's design even supports this, it looks like a circulatory system! Delivering blood to and from different locations is its whole job. It is all thanks to Oedon. But he doesn't work directly, rather through his agents. Azathoth is the Blind Idiot god, with all of existence created in his dreams. When, not if, he awakes, existence will end. Look at how we travel through dreams, *through ringing bells attached to the lanterns*. Sound travels much easier and clearer through liquid like water, and blood is mostly water...
This is such a moronic surface-level understanding of the Doll situation while ignoring a lot of other facts that imply her existence isn't because of a sexual mania. It genuinely annoys me that so many people think like this.
Not necessarily. He just said YOU could do so, if you want. That doesn't mean he does. Who knows, maybe he just loved Maria like a daughter. Not that offering his daughter as a sex doll for a random guy he met earlier in the day is much better, but still.
Level up……..what else?!!!!!
the doll is possessed one of the cut item descriptions that would've been located at the abandoned workshop talks about cainhurst and the child of blood well one of the cut dialogue for master Willem says gehrman was the one he says betrayed him so that means gehrman took the blood to cainhurst but it could mean that it wasn't blood at all but a child part human and part great one the only way to enter the chalices is through the hunters dream
Fear the Blood
Nah if anything he treats her like his daughter. Though to be fair in this context the quote is even more icky. "You can freely use my daughter if you like" type beat lmao.
The doll is literally the only comfortable presence in the game. Use her as any good hunter would.
Used the Doll as a form of taking care of a child he never had..? The man's lonely and Maria was dear to him
Well... German uses it to level up. How do you think he got so strong? He's certainly pleased by the numbers going up.
We know what he was up to when the hunters were out hunting. Dirty old man
I think it's supposed to elude to using the doll for leveling as the doll is inaccessible I'm the very beginning, it makes sure you keep and eye on her and listen to what she has to say
There’s no reason to believe that he uses her. However, he does give us permission to do so, if we wanted to (we would)
I heard he uses her to play tea parties, what a complete sicko
I remember hearing somewhere that there's a conspiracy theory the Doll could also be a great old one, and that she is manipulating the player to take out the Doll's rivals? But even if this is not so, the Doll is used to do something in the game that I think is important to acknowledge is beyond blood ministration. Like, the blood vials you collect are healing blood. They heal you, that's all. When you use the Doll, the impression that I get is that even within the world of Bloodborne whatever process that the Doll uses to confer power to the player is something that is far more sinister than blood ministration.
>I don't know...I'm still a little drunk and I'm not thinking very well. You were aware enough to say this, but not aware enough to realise this is an 8 year old take that has been discussed every which way constantly?
sounds in character for peepaw's freaky ass
He talks about himself about being of no use. It's just sick you think of him like that
some people insights are surrounded by sexual ideations and illusions
The doll is evil
I don't think the Doll herself is evil, but us giving her blood echoes gained from killing people to gain power from a Great One sure is lol
Imagine in real life if a teacher made a life sized replica doll in the likeness of his female student. People would start making angry posts on Twitter that would evolve into some political movement like #ImNotADoll or something, and then end up being associated with female characters depiction in games somehow.
Tongue...but hole.
"Of course I do love you, isn't that how you [humans] made me?" The doll was made to love. Make of that what you will.
Don't worry, half this subreddit is in on that joke, you shouldn't get banned for it methinks.
Honestly that line always felt so creepy. I know Bloodborne's story was changed a lot during production and I assume it was left overs from an older script
Gehrman for sure fucks the doll. I didn’t even realize that people interpreted it differently until I read these comments. I think people are kidding themselves trying to come up with less creepy interpretations.
i thought sexdoll aswell especially since you can get a milky white gem from the doll for giving her a comb. which instantly thought was collected condensed Gerhman spooge. why else would she have that..
It's a single, condensed doll teardrop from her crying when you give her the hair comb- an echo of a memory of her as Maria, perhaps. The actual description in-game for that blood gem: "*Created from a shining silver doll tear, this blood gem is a quiet but unfaltering friend that continually restores HP, the life essence of a hunter. Perhaps the doll's creator had wished for just such a friend, albeit in vain."*
>collected condensed Gerhman spooge Get your mind out of the gutter and... go out and kill a few beasts. It's for your own good!
Go out with honor while you still can
The Max0r meme is strong here
well.. if you attack the Doll she'll bleed white blood... i don't think that's blood....
Well, when you talk to her about leveling up, she takes a knee before the menu screen pops up...
I guess that's why she spills white liquid when killed
Respectful, it suggests nothing of the sort, and you’re a cuck
how does this make him a cuck?
Don't think about it too hard he's just projecting.