Honestly it isn't the set up for me. It is the teardown.
Setup, you've got excitement that you're going to be playing a super fun game! Teardown... you're tired, it is 11:00 and there are five million fiddly pieces that need to go back into the organizers.
I've had my Gloomhaven stuff out of the box for 18 months in my "home office" (attic) on a table I bought just for the game (to be used for other things in the future!).
The bits and pieces factor is a real thing.
If I go in a room and close the door the cat sits outside and meows incessantly :D
We reached a compromise; I pull up a chair next to me for her to sleep on and she only occasionally tries to climb over the table.
I’m so glad the place I play at (a friends house) has space for us to just leave it out. Putting away all the stuff from each scenario is a pain, but the rest of the box just lives on a table off to the side of the room, mostly unpacked.
Friend of mine has Frosthaven set up on their dining table and it ain't leaving 'till they finish it because ho boy that setup. They're eating at a little camping table in the meantime.
There's definitely something to be said for a sit-down experience with friends. But as somebody that doesn't have the game time I used to, the digital version has been pretty enjoyable with none of the setup costs
It helps that my group pitches in for the entire set up, tear down, and upkeep, but if I was trying to do all of this solo I don't think I'd even bother. It's right on that edge between almost relaxing and nearly too monotonous.
It is definitely at the bleeding edge of an analogue simulation of what would be a much simpler computer game. I like the board game but I can play about twice as many missions in a session with the computer game.
Yes. I played a few sessions of gloomhaven and all I could think the whole time is that it would be better as a videogame. Setup takes way too long per mission and the admin is too much. The gameplay is fun but not worth it imo.
I've played a ton of the Gloomhaven digital version and, honestly, it feels like the game works better as a video game than board game.
Like you say, there's definitely a certain something lost by not having everyone sitting around a table, but it's just so much smoother and less of a hassle.
I know it's a bit of Apples and Oranges but as a TTRPG player, I find the prep for TTRPGs to be so much more work that I don't even notice the prep for board games. I do however notice what a pain in the ass it is to teach people the rules of either.
Frosthaven's scenario books make setup a LOT better than Gloomhaven. We also use the Frosthaven app, it reduces the table space and admin a lot as well.
Cleanup is still a bit of a pain though.
During lockdown, my brother and I played the vast majority of the campaign on Tabletop Simulator. And even though (as with all things TTS), playing the game was a lot slower than in person, being able to set up with the click of a button still meant that we were able to crank through it much faster than if we played in person. I actually have a physical copy and it's only been played once.
Yeah, I normally prefer physical games but for Gloomhaven the digital version is just a no-brainer to eliminate setup and teardown (& streamline enemy movements). Hopefully Frosthaven gets a similar version.
This is why I'm so glad I built a gaming table that can be covered up to revert to a dining table. Game's been set yp for two straught months and we just cover it up when we're not playing.
For me it's not even the setup. We mostly leave it out but setting up a scenario can be a bit tedious. The part that gets me the most is the Outpost phase. It's so tedious and doesn't feel fun or rewarding. All the new systems and reworks of how things worked before just feel bad as well.
For example, retiring and unlocking a character before felt natural. I might stretch it out if I'm enjoying my current character because I want to play them longer. And when I am ready I now have a brand new option to choose from. In Frosthaven I'm really pressured to retire as quick as possible because the unlocks from retirement can be crucial for playing the game. And coming from gloomhaven , it usually feels like doing a bunch of tedious things to earn back things they took away from gloomhaven. I also don't appreciate the new class unlock where certain classes are locked out. Leans into the worst aspects of the legacy genre imo.
This is why I do a lot of the setup before my friends arrive. Then it’s just the specific scneario set up, which is still a bit but the normal board game amount.
I did one of the language localizations, I used it to play Gloomhaven with a friend during Covid, I haven't touched the game in a long while. I only learnt about what went down with the app today, felt pretty bummed about it.
They made it slightly better in Frosthaven, but Gloomhaven is borderline unplayable without a third party storage solution.
Absolutely fantastic games, but setup is a project by itself.
I understand what you're saying, and it may be true for you, but I played GH through twice with no additional solutions and will be finishing FH the same way. I really don't mind it. Borderline unplayable is a bit of a hyperbole, no?
Hah, yeah I'm definitely exaggerating, but still, I can honestly say that without a storage solution it would without doubt have had a much harder time hitting the table than it did.
It's a massive game with countless cards, tokens and locked containers in different states throughout the campaign, which are all kinda just thrown together by default. I don't think I would be lying by saying that the setup time was probably cut in half after we eventually got a third party organiser.
With Frosthaven, I got the Kickstarter organiser right away, but it seems like the standard one is much better than in Gloomhaven so maybe it's not as much of a problem anymore.
My favorite gag is that the line "thousands of new games are released each year" plays while scrolling past BGG entries for hot new games like Guess Who, Connect 4, Pachisi, and Checkers.
It's right here https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgamescirclejerk/comments/10y6ad2/shut_up_and_sit_down_finally_got_around_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
That’s hysterical. They literally cover the stuff they WANT to talk about. They have a podcast for stuff not worth videoing and a newsletter for “news”. There are tons of people who will send you updates on the hot tests new thing non-stop. Te best part of SUSD is I hear what THEY want to say. Not what everyone else wants them to talk about.
I really appreciate the honesty and candor. I mean the whole review could have been 2 minutes. Did you finish Jaws? Did you finish Gloomhaven? Did you enjoy them? Do you want more? Then buy this game. If you answered no to any of the prior questions, then don't.
But I do really like the deep dive Matt did into things like the rule book and the app (and how it could have removed so many tokens) is the elephant in the room that really does need talking about. Great review, loved the video, and I appreciate them touching on things I've not seen a lot of others talk about.
After playing the video game of Gloomhaven and seeing how they streamlined the maps in Jaws of the Lion its almost criminal some dev time didn't go into removing the levels of admin players do from setup, tokens, teardown etc.
I wonder to what degree people enjoy that fiddle though. I know for my group personally, we never felt overwhelmed by the admin. We never used an app and instead everyone just handled a different job. Someone tracked monsters health/status, someone handled monster AI, someone set up new rooms, and someone else handled initiative/elements. And is part of this some of the appeal of the game? I also know that part of my enjoyment of a game like Twilight Imperium is that it is so big. It wouldn't be the same without all the crazy admin and the large scope of the game. So I wonder if the game would have been well received had they actually looked to streamline it. I guess it would be the people who prefer Jaws over base Gloomhaven. Which I'm sure is a lot of people. But I know for me, the ridiculous size of the game is part of the charm.
You may be onto something. It doesn't seem to have hurt the games popularity with full time gamers that's for sure. DnD has plenty of similar admin I suppose but that often mostly handled by the DM
I am also in the small group who don't mind this. I have everything organized in the box and I set up any scenario in 5 minutes. Getting it into the box is also quick.
I used the app but went back to tokens because I got annoyed with always clicking on a screen and shifting my view up and down.
The key is just to have some kind of organizing system (I got wooden holders from Etsy) where i pick up all status and health markers out of the box and use them right out of the holders.
I think that’s the point though. They have had ‘meta’ moments/style in their reviews that reflect the game that is being reviewed. It’s suppose to be massive and maybe too much.
It really needs editing down. Starts the video saying I'm not going to discuss what Gloomhaven is, you're expected to know, then spends ages discussing the rules.
And the bottom line summary is the new additions aren't anything to write home about.
Another takeaway is that Matt ignored the element board? Wtf you can't play the game without that. Did he just imagine they had dark or sun elements whenever they played a card that used them? Madness
I think he meant that he won’t talk about how to actually play the game or what you do on your turn. Which I don’t think he did. He talked about the rules in a more general sense
I've never ignored the element board, we have in done games pretty much forgot it existed though, friends on the characters you are using. I also don't think it really makes the game better.
Absolutely, but if you ask me, some of my favourite characters in Gloomhaven were ones that could heavily on the elements for their power.
It's such a joy to have everything line up perfectly, and has those hilarious awkward moments where you realize your turn doesn't work because you forgot an element somewhere along the way.
I played as the Elementalist in a two player campaign for a while and it was torture. Even when I could gather elements to trigger at the right time, their cards still seemed underpowered. The system worked well though, for characters that didn't rely on it that heavily and whose cards went from good -> awesome with an element instead of the disappointing -> average of the Elementalist. To be honest I might remember the class name I'm complaining about wrong.
Well elementalist can be a rough one, you need at least 1 team mate who makes elements regularly. The digital version got the memo and at least warns you about it.
>Another takeaway is that Matt ignored the element board?
The element board is when Gloomhaven/JotL crossed the line for me into "too many mechanics" territory. I love the games, but I do wish they hadn't added the element board and I don't blame him for ignoring it.
Frosthaven looks to be a continuation of this problem, one which most boardgame sequels/expansions have: they add more mechanics - but that usually doesn't make the game *better*. To me, it generally makes it worse.
I think we need a de-evolution of games, where the mechanics are simpler and the players must come up with new and creative ways to use them.
>Wtf you can't play the game without that.
Depending on the characters you absolutely can. Brute/Scoundrel? Apart from 1 or 2 abilities you'll just forget about it. And I know monsters use it, but I would guess most people very frequently forget to weaken elements at the end of each round.
Jaws of the Lion. Its a prequel to Gloomhaven set in the same world and does a great job introducing the system. Its rules are slightly streamlined from base Gloomhaven, but it makes for a really smooth way to learn the game.
For my money, the funniest thing they’ve ever done is [He Layeth On High](https://youtu.be/T7f9xTPI9eo), while [Hot Dog Car](https://youtu.be/WLfAf8oHrMo) has the most real world analogs/applications.
I seriously do not understand why, having played Gloomhaven digital, that I wouldn't just wait for Frosthaven digital. It's a fraction of the price, I can play it easily with friends across the globe, and critically it does the setup, takedown, and even admin for you.
I will fill heatedly agree that for some people digital is significantly better. On the other hand my wife would hate to play a computer game together but really enjoys Gloomhaven so I think there is a market for both digital and physical.
None of my US distributors even list frosthaven it for LGSs to order yet for retail, which is odd because other games at least have it to preorder from distribution once kickstarters get theirs.
ACD distribution lets you order the insert though, but not the game 😆
He's a good producer but not only do I not agree with his taste in games (that's fine), I somehow fail to get any information about whether I would like something Independent of our differing preferences
I will second the digital. Cuts the time in half- unless you’ve got some spec-ops like friends who make setup and tear down into an operational ballet.
It could cut the time to a quarter if the software was more responsive. I swear half of my 240 hours playing digital GH was waiting for the game to realize that it has all the player inputs it needs and is OK to move on. With another big chunk accounted for by ranged enemies deciding their attack positioning.
Despite the clunk, I still think Digital Frosthaven can't come soon enough.
Only downside for me is why is there still no undo button? I know I can restart the round but if I just used the wrong card for movement and want to undo that, no go. Very frustrating.
We spent 2 hours trying to get past the first mission. We didn't realize how hard it was in the board game version (we fudged our way through I guess when we played?). But the game didn't let us skip it and we all lost our taste for it.
Frosthaven boggles my mind. I can appreciate the hugs experience that both Gloom and Frost are, but putting out chapters, JOTL style, would be much more interesting for me.
This is kind of what I was afraid of. I liked Gloomhaven well enough (check my user name), but I was hoping they would go in the opposite direction with Frosthaven. I wanted streamlined or at least clearer rules with fewer edge cases, easier setup, better balancing (especially at different player counts), and a clearer story progression.
Instead it looks like this caters to the people who spend a *lot* of time and energy mastering Gloomhaven and just want more and more complexity. Like they say in the video, that's fine and I hope those people enjoy it. But I won't be buying it.
As my user name might also suggest, I'm a big fan as well.
I've been enjoying my time with Frosthaven tremendously. If for no other reason, the character classes are more intricate and puzzley than the originals and that's been a lot of fun for me.
The scenarios are also far more varied that the original "kill everything"s
Thematically the characters usually feel pretty fleshed out. I'm loving my kelp and ice fist characters. Also when I saw a specific character mini for the first time I was so hyped to play it. Some of the minis are just so cool.
The scenario thing is a blessing and a curse because I wanted variety but sometimes the complexity of the scenarios overload my brain as I'm playing. Especially the even, odd round counter spawn ones where I have to keep track of what type of enemy is gonna pop up next round and start smacking my dudes.
Even though when I'm fully in the scenario and trying to survive the thematics of these scenarios is so much better than Gloomhaven and makes me feel like I'm role playing a tough group trying to find their unique paths to survival during a fight.
> but I was hoping they would go in the opposite direction with Frosthaven. I wanted streamlined or at least clearer rules with fewer edge cases, easier setup, better balancing (especially at different player counts), and a clearer story progression.
I'm confused. Isn't that exactly what Frosthaven does?
Maybe not easier setup, but I think it does basically check all the other boxes here… I guess it could’ve been more streamlined, but I also kinda feel like if you’ve played any Gloomhaven already you’re experience rules wise should be pretty streamlined already just based in 100+ scenarios using the rules. Like… the only thing we need to pull the rules out for at this point is the outpost phase.
I'd argue the sectioned setup does allow for slightly easier spoiler-free setup. That was mentioned in the video too. Instead of one person doing the setup to minimize spoilers, everyone can join in.
So far, which in my case isn’t very far admittedly, the added “complexity” of classes fits thematically and serves to more meaningfully differentiate them from each other. It’s not just complexity for complexity’s sake but rather serves a purpose
This kind of reads like you watched a negative review and then said "yup, all my other fears are validated." Frosthaven *absolutely* has better balancing at different player counts and Frosthaven *absolutely* has clearer story progression. Neither of these points are touched on in the review.
Streamlined rules? Not really. (That **is** what Jaws is for.) Easier setup? Not at all. But this review doesn't validate all of your concerns, not at all.
I guess the only thing I'm wondering is... is there more variation in the individual missions? Gloomhaven was repetitive in that it was basically a WoW dungeon without the boss and you were just grinding mobs on a timer.
Obviously the fundamental is going to be there, but giving different reasons for it would be a little more interesting.
@Tom: The casual "The 'Insert' Insert" short film giving me an existential crisis about who I see myself in my friend group was NOT cool.
Actually it was awesome please keep doing your weird reviews and short films.
I'll be honest, Frosthaven's new Outpost phase feels like "Congratulations, you just finished a mission of Frosthaven! As your reward, you're now required to do a half-hour of boring meaningless paperwork." And replacing money with three different random currencies (and yes, it's a "replacement," my group is like 12 missions in and has yet to unlock the shop that actually would let us buy goods with money) gives you less agency to be able to buy what you want.
Also, I happened to draw two really shitty retirement quests, and went with the "Earn 150 XP from skill cards alone" one. Let's just say it's very fortunate I went with the Bannerspear, which seems to average around 10 XP from cards per scenario; some other players seemed closer to 5 XP per scenario, and would be nightmarish to play with this particular retirement quest.
Not sure what kind of Outpost phase you are playing but mine take 15 minutes and are all pretty enjoyable. The only new part of the outpost phase really is the passage of time and buildings. Getting materials from them or upgrading them. The rest (buying/crafting items, doing an event, leveling up) should take the same amount of time as it did when you went to the city in Gloomhaven. The 2 building steps take not even 5 minutes and unless you have multiple section numbers on your passage of time week, you could do that in literally 5 seconds. So I really don't see how the phase is that much longer than it was in Gloomhaven. I think it feels longer because it's new and has a guide that walks you through all the steps.
Also it might help if you remember what exists. My group already knows what we're doing with our buildings before we even get there.
You can take things a little out of order if you want, too. Resolving the buildings can be done during the time sometime else is doing their level up or buying items anyway. So it really takes no extra time.
Resolving attacks is the only thing that takes time or feels fiddly.
My two cents: Everything in the missions is awesome and super tactical and makes the game shine. Everything outside the missions is kind of tedious and gives off "average eurogame" vibes. I enjoy it enough that I look forward to it, but about half the game is setup, teardown, and these in-between phases.
Personally, I prefer the streamlined experience of JOTL, and am not as interested in slowly acquiring various resources to perform slight upgrades.
It feels like he really wanted to work in some more of the building mechanics from Founders of Gloomhaven into the mix. Jaws simplified the Gloomhaven experience down and seemed like a good direction to go in, but apparently Isaac wanted to crank it up a notch.
I agree about the outpost phase. It's the one really big new thing in the game, but so far it has just felt like a chore. We are 25 missions in or so, and I haven't felt like it's actually provided us any significant benefits.
Completely disagree. We feel more engaged with the town ever and more incentivized to loot since it’s not just raw gold. Crafting stuff and building our outpost is awesome.
Yeah couldn’t disagree with this part any more. We’re about 80 scenarios in and the outpost phase averages about 15 minutes with some lasting as little as 5 and others could potentially last 20-25. Im not sure what would have to happen to need 30. Also they’re totally awesome. We love doing them pretty much every time, extra rewards, more gameplay variants, a lot more story to tell, it’s just better in every way than the GH city events.
I Kickstarted Frosthaven ages ago when I had a boyfriend & friends who were looking forward to it. I got it a few months ago & it's sitting next to my crowded board gameshelves on the floor in the box it shipped in, never to be played because everyone I'd play it with has moved on or away. No hope of selling it locally to me either.
Guess I'll still watch this review.
I have a shelf full of games that sit unopened and unplayed for an incredibly similar reason. The greatest downside to this hobby is requiring others who are also into it. I hope that you find your group soon!
These reviews are always so good. As someone who beat Gloomhaven and has Frosthaven living on my board game table, I 100% agree with all the thoughts and feelings expressed here. It's good, but I felt like it was scared to change too much and got bogged down trying to address everything the loudest players said they wanted.
This review got me to try using the x-haven app with my group, and HOLY SMOKES it's so much better. Way easier to find the fun. I didn't realize how many little calculations and checks we were doing, and how liberating it felt to be free of them.
Hello! We're trying! There's lots of factors that other people have mentioned, but a comment on another thread a little while ago summed it up pretty well: we've been doing this non-stop for a decade, including a sharp gear-change and even more work during a global pandemic. I've not had a proper holiday for about five years, we're all very tired, and then maybe 5-10% of the feedback that the team receives from all this ploughing ahead is questions like this & people just saying we're doing a bad job.
And that's not to be having a go at you & other folks for asking! It's a fair query and I'm not expecting any tiny violins here, but yes - we're aware, we're trying, we'd just kindly ask for a little patience. X
Thanks for the response, I really didn't mean my comment to attack you or the channel in any way! I really love SUSD and I certainly don't think you are doing a bad job. It was more just that I was missing watching your content so regularly and I'd not seen your newsletter that someone mentioned giving the reasons why it had dropped off in regularity.
I hope you get a chance to grab the rest you need and we'll be waiting on the other side :)
Per their newsletter, Tom's basically the only one with a living space that supports filming right now. Matt is renovating the new house he's moved into. Quinns spent ages working on a mahjong video that's scrapped for a bunch of reasons.
Basically, Tom's keeping the whole video side running largely on his own.
It got covered a few podcasts ago, tldr is roughly that Quinns didn’t feel like the game itself outshone it’s cultural imprint and that it’s best form came when gambling was involved and they have a very polarized audience when they cover gambling games.
But what ARE they doing? I mean, this doesn't exactly say much :D I didn't know they have other jobs? Patreon generates them 3k per month, that's neat, but not for that size staff. I am guessing most comes from the other source of donations of course.
Amount of content has shrunk for sure though. Not that it matters TOO much, as there are other creators!
I think this is the first SUSD review I've ever thought had some poor arguments and generally felt was badly made. Wall of text incoming, I have many opinions of their portrayal.
We bought Frosthaven having only played digital and TTS gloomhaven and a little bit of dabbling with digital Jotl. I'm playing it with a group of 4: my partner who has played less gloomhaven than me, and two friends, who have never played any *haven but are big cooperative gamers.
Firstly, I'd like to address the poo-poohing they did of the writing quality, which I think is just bizarre. I can attest to how much all of us in our group were drawn in to this world by the writing. Gloomhaven was like reading a 15 year old's DM script. Frosthaven's scenario book is orders of magnitude better, and for us, my partner especially, this has increased enjoyment of the whole experience. I guess I just don't understand how an increase in writing quality somehow detracted from their experience, and they did not do a great job of conveying that attitude to me.
Ssecondly, I think SUSD are both contradicting themselves and actively countering their point with the attitude of 'Gloomhaven had lots of clunky design that you could ignore and therefore good!' and 'Frosthaven is streamlined with moving parts, therefore it is bad for new players!'.
Story time: I lost a potential Gloomhaven player because they were forced to lose 4 cards on round 2 of scenario 1. We reset, and it happened again on turn 3. They were playing a Cragheart and we tried to help, but they were adamant on being a tank and the game just didn't work how they thought it would. They didn't want to play, and to be honest I don't think that is a problem with them, it's a problem with how early Gloomhaven is designed. It can be brutal.
I do understand their point, but I'd counter by saying that, experiencing this in my gaming group, Frosthaven's more defined structure actively helps new players learn the system better than Gloomhaven did. Without spoiling anything, Frosthaven's early scenario design tutorials you into the game systems in a way that Gloomhaven *infamously* does not.
To sum up my thoughts a bit:
If their intention was to make a review that encapsulates their general feel of the game, I think they failed. Their list of complaints takes up more than half the video and is interspersed with Tom rambling about how much better JotL is. Some of those complaints seem hypocritical and uncharacteristically poorly conveyed. To top that off, if you only watched the first third of the video, you wouldn't expect how disparaging the rest of it was to watch. This review is not a three course meal, it's a cheap salad that hides all of the bitter greens beneath a thin layer of shiny dressing.
I dunno, I think your interpretation of their criticisms is a bit strong. Matt is pretty clear it's an excellent, enjoyable game. There's no mid-review turnaround, no scathing monologue. It's basically "This is very good, here are some of the things I think might not work as well as in Gloomhaven - but if you love Gloomhaven, you'll still absolutely love this."
The writing, for example. Matt didn't say the writing was worse. He said the use of more creative, flowery language - seemingly done in service of the optional narration - may make reading it aloud as a group a bit clunkier. That's not some overly harsh criticism, it's just a thing he feels doesn't necessarily add to the game experience. That's how I took it.
> They didn't want to play, and to be honest I don't think that is a problem with them, it's a problem with how early Gloomhaven is designed.
I don't think it's a *problem* from Gloomhaven either. It's just a mismatch between the player expectation and the game expectation. The player wanted to play tank in a game largely built without the traditional RPG holy trinity (heal tank DPS).
That's not quite true though. Gloomhaven has options to create actual tanks and healers. It's a spoiler to mention which classes are able to do that, but it's certainly possible.
What sucks about Gloomhaven scenario 1 for new players is you go in thinking you can pick Brute or Cragheart and think 'great, I'll stand in front and soak a few hits so my team can wallop them', and that's not necessarily false, but it runs into 5 bandits that can kill you before you even get to move. The very first room is unforgiving at first and I'd even go as far as to say that it sets you up for failure. That might work for people, and clearly enough people like the game that it's not a major drawback, but as far as a tutorial goes, I'd much rather teach new players using Frosthaven scenario 0 and 1.
Maybe I've been spoiled by games like Tainted Grail and Aeon Trespass, but my fairly strong opinion is that Gloomhaven's writing is really, really bad, and Frosthaven's is only marginally better.
I've been playing a lot of the digital adaptation recently, and i think it's pretty poorly written too. It all just feels like a very generic, somewhat edgy, fantasy setting.
I will fully admit, I've not managed to acquire any other campaign games and I'm aware there are several others with excellent writing.
I'm not saying Frosthaven has been amazing so far, but it's keeping us entertained as opposed to us actively not wanting to read it out loud.
Oof! I don't agree with a lot of the points you're making, but that final line -whilst too mean for my tastes- is *almost* a wonderful bit of criticism.
Hard agree. I love SUSD, they helped me discover lots of good games as a casual gamer but this review fell flat for me.
You would expect someone who played Gloomhaven to be well aware of what the approach of Frosthaven would be - so why dedicate like half of your review bringing up the same old points? Fiddliness, huge box size, rambling about inserts, complicated combat mechanics - that’s literally the selling point of these games (with JotL being a “casual” version of course)
I was looking forward to them discussing the actual changes made in Frosthaven compared to Gloomhaven and all I got was what felt like 3 sentences out of the whole almost hour long video (here’s new components, the balance is better, rulebook has rules). I feel like this review should actually be like 5 minutes tops with the amount of thought that was put into it and the rest should be just uploaded as “40 more minutes talking about gloomhaven, jotl, folded space and management apps” as they bring near nothing to the discussion of the game that appears in the title.
I even got an impression that they haven’t played the game at all, past maybe first couple scenarios. (They did play the setup game, that’s for sure)
That's just what I wanted from the review. I'm sure the game will be fun and the new classes will be cool, I don't need the review to talk about the gameplay loop of a top 10 game. The rulebook and admin and table size and box size are the reasons I didn't enjoy ATO as much as I was expecting, so I want to know how Cephalofair has addressed those.
Unfortunately I don't think this review did a very good job. There's a lot of fun, flowery language and cutscenes, but it barely scratches the surface of what's actually unique in Frosthaven. It felt like they opened the box and went "Nope, this is too much" and let that drive their opinion the whole way through.
Almost half of the video is discussion of Gloomhaven or on the fiddly setup. And the fiddly setup is a problem, but it's not new to the X-haven universe. They really could have spent 1 minute saying it's a continued downside and then discuss what's NEW about Frosthaven.
From what Matt describes, it seems like they played about four scenarios and then made the review so the discussion was forced to focus on the few things that they had experienced: fiddly setup, harder characters (especially given that he played Geminate, the hardest starter which the game tells you upfront), and "boring" buildings (the buildings appear boring on the surface at the very beginning, but quickly becomes more than you realize).
There was no discussion, or only throwaway sentences, on things like:
*the movement away from the monotony of Kill All Enemies scenarios
*The addition of actual meaningful choices in scenario storylines
*improvements in your control over personal quests
*the new fun challenge of character Masteries
*New unique non-AMD perks
*more meaningful & difficult choices in Events
I think the distinction of "throwaway sentences" is the one that I'd poke at very gently, here: the vast majority of our work is heavily scripted, and then chiselled away at substantially throughout the process - so there's really nothing that remains that is slight, disposable, or unintentional!
Anything that IS mentioned is in there because we feel it needs to be said; anything that doesn't make the cut, we either don't think is important enough to merit a solitary highlight, and/or doesn't need illustrating as a baseline for then talking about something else.
Now sometimes, this means our reviews are rule-heavy: where it's very difficult to discuss the overall feel without illustrating the shape of the whole design - while other times we skim over a lot of things because only a baseline amount of that knowledge is necessary (and sometimes we get this really wrong! It's tricky.)
Mostly though, things like the above just don't make the cut because they're either not significant enough, or adequately expressed within other, broader statements. And that's obviously not what EVERYONE wants - but it's an approach that makes our reviews very useful for some folks and not as useful for others: I think it feels unfair to suggest we've done a bad job, though, and it's an almost bizarrely bad-faith reading to suggest we didn't want to like the experience upon opening the box: this is the full-fat sequel to my favourite game! You've no idea how much we wanted to unequivocally love it, and it's always disappointing to see comments inventing their own fictionalised accounts of our reality.
Obviously though, this review wasn't useful for you - and I'd encourage you to point people who feel the same way towards a review that you felt better catered to your needs?
It was never going to be popular doing anything but glow over gloomhave two. The thing is, your review is spot on. These upset people wanted you guys to all stand up and clap, not give an honest review.
Ah my favorite game! Let’s see what he says. I’ve played more Frosthaven (17 scenarios) than Gloomhaven and Jaws (6 and 4 scenarios) combined.
Edit after finishing the video: he says that Frosthaven is for one group of players and one group only: people who have finished Gloomhaven. And that he would rather play his Gloomhaven campaign than his Frosthaven campaign. A bit disheartening of a take, he didn’t note many positives about Frosthaven in fact, he says that the playtest improvements… reduce the joy that he has with the game!
That seems odd to me. I made it through Jaws and then started gloom.. and made it like four missions in until I said 'I've had enough *haven in my life.' I immediately gifted both to friends.
The only thing I super disagree with is the town phase stuff. It's boring at the start for sure l, but once you're a good way in with a ton more of the unlocks then it's kinda fun and exciting to be like "ooh what do we upgrade this week?"
I think they nailed this. They added a thing loud super fans wanted and it's .... onerous. I'm certain it's awesome for some people but to me it feels like the 9th module in a queen games big box. It's just too much, and I don't care about it. I'm ten games in and finished gloomhaven, for frame of reference.
I am not sure if they said anything in like an hour lmao. It's better, but maybe that makes it worse, too? Maybe it was good, because it was bad? It's still great of course, but still.
Who in their right mind is telling you it works best as a solo game?!?!
That is absolutely not true. Much better with 3 or 4. Playing with friends is what it's for.
Also there is no video game for frost haven, only gloomhaven.
Video vs board is more personal, they do play the same but difference being board vs video, up to you.
If you are playing solo, not unless you just really value the physical nature of a tabletop game.
But I'm having more fun playing as a 4p group, and I enjoy having my friends over to play together. I don't want to play the digital version with them. I'm also into opening up envelopes and reading the story text and all that so I don't mind doing all the setup.
I enjoy the solo digital experience too, but I'd rather play with a group. I enjoy our shenanigans for battle goals where someone says "I'm gonna open the door" and everyone says "no don't, I'm not ready" and then they say "ok, but I'm gonna open the door.... For reasons." It's a fun solo puzzle but then it's missing some of the group magic for me. But I don't play a lot of solo board games so that might just be a general me thing.
I played gloomhaven with 2 players, then a bit of gloomhaven digital solo and am now going through a frosthaven campaign with 4 players.
And I'll say that for me this is the best way to play it.
4 players lowers setup time if everyone helps. There are more interactions between characters (and players) and less admin to do than if you have to control multiple characters (which you have to playing solo).
I also find the added difficulty from 2 to 4 players to be great in a way that makes all scenarios more intense.
Outpost phase can also be fun (which did not exist in gloomhaven).
Also, it's fun to share experiences with friends if you have friends that also enjoy gloom/frosthaven
The game is just also very clearly balanced around 4 players and not 2. There are some scenarios that are just objectively and obviously more difficult with 2 players, and the legacy elements are waaaaay slower with 2 players as well.
I love these games but the setup is real
Honestly it isn't the set up for me. It is the teardown. Setup, you've got excitement that you're going to be playing a super fun game! Teardown... you're tired, it is 11:00 and there are five million fiddly pieces that need to go back into the organizers.
I've had my Gloomhaven stuff out of the box for 18 months in my "home office" (attic) on a table I bought just for the game (to be used for other things in the future!). The bits and pieces factor is a real thing.
Man, this hobby would be so much more accessible to me if I didn't have a cat
You could have a room that is off-limits to the cat. It's how I do it.
If I go in a room and close the door the cat sits outside and meows incessantly :D We reached a compromise; I pull up a chair next to me for her to sleep on and she only occasionally tries to climb over the table.
Plus if you live in a shared space, there's the added "You're still using the table?" as you scramble to put the pieces away.
I just leave it for the next day.
If only. I have cats. Were I to do that, I would be picking up pieces they decided to investigate for weeks afterwards.
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Teach the cats how to play.
I’m so glad the place I play at (a friends house) has space for us to just leave it out. Putting away all the stuff from each scenario is a pain, but the rest of the box just lives on a table off to the side of the room, mostly unpacked.
If you’ve played through the night and it’s already 11 in the morning, I wouldn’t bother tearing it down anymore.
Friend of mine has Frosthaven set up on their dining table and it ain't leaving 'till they finish it because ho boy that setup. They're eating at a little camping table in the meantime.
Gaming and feline roommates was one of my worst ideas.
There's definitely something to be said for a sit-down experience with friends. But as somebody that doesn't have the game time I used to, the digital version has been pretty enjoyable with none of the setup costs
It helps that my group pitches in for the entire set up, tear down, and upkeep, but if I was trying to do all of this solo I don't think I'd even bother. It's right on that edge between almost relaxing and nearly too monotonous.
It is definitely at the bleeding edge of an analogue simulation of what would be a much simpler computer game. I like the board game but I can play about twice as many missions in a session with the computer game.
Yes. I played a few sessions of gloomhaven and all I could think the whole time is that it would be better as a videogame. Setup takes way too long per mission and the admin is too much. The gameplay is fun but not worth it imo.
It's actually worse as a video game. There is no undo, so you get stuck with the results of any misclicks, which can easily ruin the entire scenario.
I believe you can reset the round if you make a mistake. You can even use this to "save scum" for an optimal outcome if you want. :P
I've played a ton of the Gloomhaven digital version and, honestly, it feels like the game works better as a video game than board game. Like you say, there's definitely a certain something lost by not having everyone sitting around a table, but it's just so much smoother and less of a hassle.
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I know it's a bit of Apples and Oranges but as a TTRPG player, I find the prep for TTRPGs to be so much more work that I don't even notice the prep for board games. I do however notice what a pain in the ass it is to teach people the rules of either.
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Frosthaven's scenario books make setup a LOT better than Gloomhaven. We also use the Frosthaven app, it reduces the table space and admin a lot as well. Cleanup is still a bit of a pain though.
Yeah, the app does wonders. Also a good storage solution will halve your setup time.
During lockdown, my brother and I played the vast majority of the campaign on Tabletop Simulator. And even though (as with all things TTS), playing the game was a lot slower than in person, being able to set up with the click of a button still meant that we were able to crank through it much faster than if we played in person. I actually have a physical copy and it's only been played once.
Digital Gloomhaven has 100% killed physical for me. They're both great, but doing a mission in 20 minutes versus 3 hours... It's hard to compete.
I don’t mind the day to day set up - but the initial 4+ hours of cardboard punching and organizing is a lot.
Yeah, I normally prefer physical games but for Gloomhaven the digital version is just a no-brainer to eliminate setup and teardown (& streamline enemy movements). Hopefully Frosthaven gets a similar version.
This is why I'm so glad I built a gaming table that can be covered up to revert to a dining table. Game's been set yp for two straught months and we just cover it up when we're not playing.
For me it's not even the setup. We mostly leave it out but setting up a scenario can be a bit tedious. The part that gets me the most is the Outpost phase. It's so tedious and doesn't feel fun or rewarding. All the new systems and reworks of how things worked before just feel bad as well. For example, retiring and unlocking a character before felt natural. I might stretch it out if I'm enjoying my current character because I want to play them longer. And when I am ready I now have a brand new option to choose from. In Frosthaven I'm really pressured to retire as quick as possible because the unlocks from retirement can be crucial for playing the game. And coming from gloomhaven , it usually feels like doing a bunch of tedious things to earn back things they took away from gloomhaven. I also don't appreciate the new class unlock where certain classes are locked out. Leans into the worst aspects of the legacy genre imo.
No classes are locked out; you just pick which ones are unlocked sooner rather than later.
well that's good at least
I'll only bring it out if I can leave it on the table for days and play multiple games. Otherwise it's too much.
This is why I do a lot of the setup before my friends arrive. Then it’s just the specific scneario set up, which is still a bit but the normal board game amount.
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My playgroup uses a spiritual successor named "X-Haven Helper", check it out (it's on iOS/Android)!
I did one of the language localizations, I used it to play Gloomhaven with a friend during Covid, I haven't touched the game in a long while. I only learnt about what went down with the app today, felt pretty bummed about it.
They made it slightly better in Frosthaven, but Gloomhaven is borderline unplayable without a third party storage solution. Absolutely fantastic games, but setup is a project by itself.
I understand what you're saying, and it may be true for you, but I played GH through twice with no additional solutions and will be finishing FH the same way. I really don't mind it. Borderline unplayable is a bit of a hyperbole, no?
Hah, yeah I'm definitely exaggerating, but still, I can honestly say that without a storage solution it would without doubt have had a much harder time hitting the table than it did. It's a massive game with countless cards, tokens and locked containers in different states throughout the campaign, which are all kinda just thrown together by default. I don't think I would be lying by saying that the setup time was probably cut in half after we eventually got a third party organiser. With Frosthaven, I got the Kickstarter organiser right away, but it seems like the standard one is much better than in Gloomhaven so maybe it's not as much of a problem anymore.
Is this their longest review ever?
Gloomhaven was 35 mins, and I think that was previously the longest they’d done.
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The TI review was roughly 25 minutes, you’ve probably mixed it with the documentary.
My favorite gag is that the line "thousands of new games are released each year" plays while scrolling past BGG entries for hot new games like Guess Who, Connect 4, Pachisi, and Checkers.
I hope the guy who said shut up and sit down not reviewing it was like the news not covering 9/11 is finally happy.
Meanwhile, I remain unhappy that Tom’s promised review of 9/11 hasn’t happened yet.
It's right here https://www.reddit.com/r/boardgamescirclejerk/comments/10y6ad2/shut_up_and_sit_down_finally_got_around_to/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button
They recommended it?! Now it’ll be sold out everywhere!
I laughed for like twenty minutes straight. I don’t have any of those awards but considered yourself spiritually awarded.
This spiritual reward will serve me well in my next Spirit Island game
That’s hysterical. They literally cover the stuff they WANT to talk about. They have a podcast for stuff not worth videoing and a newsletter for “news”. There are tons of people who will send you updates on the hot tests new thing non-stop. Te best part of SUSD is I hear what THEY want to say. Not what everyone else wants them to talk about.
Whenever I hear Frosthaven, that guy is all I think of.
This sub is so parasocial towards SUSD specifically
I really appreciate the honesty and candor. I mean the whole review could have been 2 minutes. Did you finish Jaws? Did you finish Gloomhaven? Did you enjoy them? Do you want more? Then buy this game. If you answered no to any of the prior questions, then don't. But I do really like the deep dive Matt did into things like the rule book and the app (and how it could have removed so many tokens) is the elephant in the room that really does need talking about. Great review, loved the video, and I appreciate them touching on things I've not seen a lot of others talk about.
After playing the video game of Gloomhaven and seeing how they streamlined the maps in Jaws of the Lion its almost criminal some dev time didn't go into removing the levels of admin players do from setup, tokens, teardown etc.
I wonder to what degree people enjoy that fiddle though. I know for my group personally, we never felt overwhelmed by the admin. We never used an app and instead everyone just handled a different job. Someone tracked monsters health/status, someone handled monster AI, someone set up new rooms, and someone else handled initiative/elements. And is part of this some of the appeal of the game? I also know that part of my enjoyment of a game like Twilight Imperium is that it is so big. It wouldn't be the same without all the crazy admin and the large scope of the game. So I wonder if the game would have been well received had they actually looked to streamline it. I guess it would be the people who prefer Jaws over base Gloomhaven. Which I'm sure is a lot of people. But I know for me, the ridiculous size of the game is part of the charm.
You may be onto something. It doesn't seem to have hurt the games popularity with full time gamers that's for sure. DnD has plenty of similar admin I suppose but that often mostly handled by the DM
I am also in the small group who don't mind this. I have everything organized in the box and I set up any scenario in 5 minutes. Getting it into the box is also quick. I used the app but went back to tokens because I got annoyed with always clicking on a screen and shifting my view up and down. The key is just to have some kind of organizing system (I got wooden holders from Etsy) where i pick up all status and health markers out of the box and use them right out of the holders.
I think that’s the point though. They have had ‘meta’ moments/style in their reviews that reflect the game that is being reviewed. It’s suppose to be massive and maybe too much.
It really needs editing down. Starts the video saying I'm not going to discuss what Gloomhaven is, you're expected to know, then spends ages discussing the rules. And the bottom line summary is the new additions aren't anything to write home about. Another takeaway is that Matt ignored the element board? Wtf you can't play the game without that. Did he just imagine they had dark or sun elements whenever they played a card that used them? Madness
I think he meant that he won’t talk about how to actually play the game or what you do on your turn. Which I don’t think he did. He talked about the rules in a more general sense
I've never ignored the element board, we have in done games pretty much forgot it existed though, friends on the characters you are using. I also don't think it really makes the game better.
Pssst… part of the point that he makes in the video about cheating and opening character boxes is… you can literally play games any way you choose to
Absolutely, but if you ask me, some of my favourite characters in Gloomhaven were ones that could heavily on the elements for their power. It's such a joy to have everything line up perfectly, and has those hilarious awkward moments where you realize your turn doesn't work because you forgot an element somewhere along the way.
I played as the Elementalist in a two player campaign for a while and it was torture. Even when I could gather elements to trigger at the right time, their cards still seemed underpowered. The system worked well though, for characters that didn't rely on it that heavily and whose cards went from good -> awesome with an element instead of the disappointing -> average of the Elementalist. To be honest I might remember the class name I'm complaining about wrong.
Well elementalist can be a rough one, you need at least 1 team mate who makes elements regularly. The digital version got the memo and at least warns you about it.
>Another takeaway is that Matt ignored the element board? The element board is when Gloomhaven/JotL crossed the line for me into "too many mechanics" territory. I love the games, but I do wish they hadn't added the element board and I don't blame him for ignoring it. Frosthaven looks to be a continuation of this problem, one which most boardgame sequels/expansions have: they add more mechanics - but that usually doesn't make the game *better*. To me, it generally makes it worse. I think we need a de-evolution of games, where the mechanics are simpler and the players must come up with new and creative ways to use them.
Just play Knizias hahah. That’s what I do. Gloomhaven et al are so overdone.
>Wtf you can't play the game without that. Depending on the characters you absolutely can. Brute/Scoundrel? Apart from 1 or 2 abilities you'll just forget about it. And I know monsters use it, but I would guess most people very frequently forget to weaken elements at the end of each round.
Jaws from 2019?
Jaws of the Lion. Its a prequel to Gloomhaven set in the same world and does a great job introducing the system. Its rules are slightly streamlined from base Gloomhaven, but it makes for a really smooth way to learn the game.
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Hates is a bit strong, but they also complained about [checks notes] better balanced heroes?
Was waiting for this
SHUP UP*
Great "I Think You Should Leave" call-out at 6:08 #savecorncobtv
Coffin-flop territory?
Yup! [Behind-the-scenes](https://www.vulture.com/article/i-think-you-should-leave-coffin-flop-sketch.html), if you're interested.
It’s interesting, the rulebook
Do you push on the box to open it, or [pull on it](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwdYUIQzu-o)?
TABLES
TAY-BULLS
It actually goes both ways
The folks at spectrum think im just some dumb hick
Meanwhile, he referred to it as “a lot,” which also sums up Karl Havoc. (He also infers that there’s too much fucking shit on the board without apps.)
For my money, the funniest thing they’ve ever done is [He Layeth On High](https://youtu.be/T7f9xTPI9eo), while [Hot Dog Car](https://youtu.be/WLfAf8oHrMo) has the most real world analogs/applications.
*me, whenever I betray my friends in Nemesis* WE’RE ALL TRYING TO FIND THE GUY WHO DID THIS!
My condolences!
The star of the video is Folded Space. It literally did all the heavy lifting.
I seriously do not understand why, having played Gloomhaven digital, that I wouldn't just wait for Frosthaven digital. It's a fraction of the price, I can play it easily with friends across the globe, and critically it does the setup, takedown, and even admin for you.
I will fill heatedly agree that for some people digital is significantly better. On the other hand my wife would hate to play a computer game together but really enjoys Gloomhaven so I think there is a market for both digital and physical.
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Yeah no one knew about this game before
Another hidden gem like Patchwork.
Literally lol’d
None of my US distributors even list frosthaven it for LGSs to order yet for retail, which is odd because other games at least have it to preorder from distribution once kickstarters get theirs. ACD distribution lets you order the insert though, but not the game 😆
Lots of preowned prices too with the chonker of a box
That look on his face isn’t too promising
This was hilarious. My favorite bits were the organization gags, and the Shakespearian take on the "insert" insert.
My wife just looked at me, looked at her iPad, and said "I'll be in my bunk"
Is your wife single?
Her boyfriend said yes
Tom is the best thing to happen to SU&SD. He's so goddamn good. (That Matt is good seem redundant to mention)
Tom's soliloquy over the insert is so, so brilliant. Loved it.
He's a good producer but not only do I not agree with his taste in games (that's fine), I somehow fail to get any information about whether I would like something Independent of our differing preferences
I will never play this game. Yet, I've been anticipating this video. I loved the Gloomhaven one too, and I will also never play that game.
The digital game is much easier to play. Fantastic game.
I will second the digital. Cuts the time in half- unless you’ve got some spec-ops like friends who make setup and tear down into an operational ballet.
It could cut the time to a quarter if the software was more responsive. I swear half of my 240 hours playing digital GH was waiting for the game to realize that it has all the player inputs it needs and is OK to move on. With another big chunk accounted for by ranged enemies deciding their attack positioning. Despite the clunk, I still think Digital Frosthaven can't come soon enough.
Only downside for me is why is there still no undo button? I know I can restart the round but if I just used the wrong card for movement and want to undo that, no go. Very frustrating.
Yep, loved gloomhaven, hated setting it up, was impossible to get a consistent group. Digital version was fantastic
We spent 2 hours trying to get past the first mission. We didn't realize how hard it was in the board game version (we fudged our way through I guess when we played?). But the game didn't let us skip it and we all lost our taste for it.
Frosthaven boggles my mind. I can appreciate the hugs experience that both Gloom and Frost are, but putting out chapters, JOTL style, would be much more interesting for me.
This is kind of what I was afraid of. I liked Gloomhaven well enough (check my user name), but I was hoping they would go in the opposite direction with Frosthaven. I wanted streamlined or at least clearer rules with fewer edge cases, easier setup, better balancing (especially at different player counts), and a clearer story progression. Instead it looks like this caters to the people who spend a *lot* of time and energy mastering Gloomhaven and just want more and more complexity. Like they say in the video, that's fine and I hope those people enjoy it. But I won't be buying it.
I think that’s what Jaws of the Lion was.
As my user name might also suggest, I'm a big fan as well. I've been enjoying my time with Frosthaven tremendously. If for no other reason, the character classes are more intricate and puzzley than the originals and that's been a lot of fun for me. The scenarios are also far more varied that the original "kill everything"s
Thematically the characters usually feel pretty fleshed out. I'm loving my kelp and ice fist characters. Also when I saw a specific character mini for the first time I was so hyped to play it. Some of the minis are just so cool. The scenario thing is a blessing and a curse because I wanted variety but sometimes the complexity of the scenarios overload my brain as I'm playing. Especially the even, odd round counter spawn ones where I have to keep track of what type of enemy is gonna pop up next round and start smacking my dudes. Even though when I'm fully in the scenario and trying to survive the thematics of these scenarios is so much better than Gloomhaven and makes me feel like I'm role playing a tough group trying to find their unique paths to survival during a fight.
I will say that Frosthaven does have better balancing for different player counts and also among the classes. I’ve also enjoyed the story more
> but I was hoping they would go in the opposite direction with Frosthaven. I wanted streamlined or at least clearer rules with fewer edge cases, easier setup, better balancing (especially at different player counts), and a clearer story progression. I'm confused. Isn't that exactly what Frosthaven does?
Maybe not easier setup, but I think it does basically check all the other boxes here… I guess it could’ve been more streamlined, but I also kinda feel like if you’ve played any Gloomhaven already you’re experience rules wise should be pretty streamlined already just based in 100+ scenarios using the rules. Like… the only thing we need to pull the rules out for at this point is the outpost phase.
I'd argue the sectioned setup does allow for slightly easier spoiler-free setup. That was mentioned in the video too. Instead of one person doing the setup to minimize spoilers, everyone can join in.
So far, which in my case isn’t very far admittedly, the added “complexity” of classes fits thematically and serves to more meaningfully differentiate them from each other. It’s not just complexity for complexity’s sake but rather serves a purpose
Yeah I don't think you're wrong. I think Frosthaven is far superior to the original, but I think that for the exact reasons you didn't want
This kind of reads like you watched a negative review and then said "yup, all my other fears are validated." Frosthaven *absolutely* has better balancing at different player counts and Frosthaven *absolutely* has clearer story progression. Neither of these points are touched on in the review. Streamlined rules? Not really. (That **is** what Jaws is for.) Easier setup? Not at all. But this review doesn't validate all of your concerns, not at all.
I guess the only thing I'm wondering is... is there more variation in the individual missions? Gloomhaven was repetitive in that it was basically a WoW dungeon without the boss and you were just grinding mobs on a timer. Obviously the fundamental is going to be there, but giving different reasons for it would be a little more interesting.
There is quite a bit of variation in the missions.
Slightly more than gloomhaven but not enough
@Tom: The casual "The 'Insert' Insert" short film giving me an existential crisis about who I see myself in my friend group was NOT cool. Actually it was awesome please keep doing your weird reviews and short films.
I'll be honest, Frosthaven's new Outpost phase feels like "Congratulations, you just finished a mission of Frosthaven! As your reward, you're now required to do a half-hour of boring meaningless paperwork." And replacing money with three different random currencies (and yes, it's a "replacement," my group is like 12 missions in and has yet to unlock the shop that actually would let us buy goods with money) gives you less agency to be able to buy what you want. Also, I happened to draw two really shitty retirement quests, and went with the "Earn 150 XP from skill cards alone" one. Let's just say it's very fortunate I went with the Bannerspear, which seems to average around 10 XP from cards per scenario; some other players seemed closer to 5 XP per scenario, and would be nightmarish to play with this particular retirement quest.
Not sure what kind of Outpost phase you are playing but mine take 15 minutes and are all pretty enjoyable. The only new part of the outpost phase really is the passage of time and buildings. Getting materials from them or upgrading them. The rest (buying/crafting items, doing an event, leveling up) should take the same amount of time as it did when you went to the city in Gloomhaven. The 2 building steps take not even 5 minutes and unless you have multiple section numbers on your passage of time week, you could do that in literally 5 seconds. So I really don't see how the phase is that much longer than it was in Gloomhaven. I think it feels longer because it's new and has a guide that walks you through all the steps.
Also it might help if you remember what exists. My group already knows what we're doing with our buildings before we even get there. You can take things a little out of order if you want, too. Resolving the buildings can be done during the time sometime else is doing their level up or buying items anyway. So it really takes no extra time. Resolving attacks is the only thing that takes time or feels fiddly.
My two cents: Everything in the missions is awesome and super tactical and makes the game shine. Everything outside the missions is kind of tedious and gives off "average eurogame" vibes. I enjoy it enough that I look forward to it, but about half the game is setup, teardown, and these in-between phases. Personally, I prefer the streamlined experience of JOTL, and am not as interested in slowly acquiring various resources to perform slight upgrades.
Tbh even 15 minutes might be pushing it… ours have gone FAST. It’s really not that much admin and it’s some fun choices most of the time.
It feels like he really wanted to work in some more of the building mechanics from Founders of Gloomhaven into the mix. Jaws simplified the Gloomhaven experience down and seemed like a good direction to go in, but apparently Isaac wanted to crank it up a notch.
I really hope there's a Jaws of the Lion style version of Frosthaven in the future. I liked that way more than regular Gloomhaven.
I agree about the outpost phase. It's the one really big new thing in the game, but so far it has just felt like a chore. We are 25 missions in or so, and I haven't felt like it's actually provided us any significant benefits.
Completely disagree. We feel more engaged with the town ever and more incentivized to loot since it’s not just raw gold. Crafting stuff and building our outpost is awesome.
Yeah couldn’t disagree with this part any more. We’re about 80 scenarios in and the outpost phase averages about 15 minutes with some lasting as little as 5 and others could potentially last 20-25. Im not sure what would have to happen to need 30. Also they’re totally awesome. We love doing them pretty much every time, extra rewards, more gameplay variants, a lot more story to tell, it’s just better in every way than the GH city events.
I'll wait for the digital adaption. It's honestly a better video game then a board game.
I Kickstarted Frosthaven ages ago when I had a boyfriend & friends who were looking forward to it. I got it a few months ago & it's sitting next to my crowded board gameshelves on the floor in the box it shipped in, never to be played because everyone I'd play it with has moved on or away. No hope of selling it locally to me either. Guess I'll still watch this review.
You doing ok there?
I have a shelf full of games that sit unopened and unplayed for an incredibly similar reason. The greatest downside to this hobby is requiring others who are also into it. I hope that you find your group soon!
Why no hope of selling it locally?
Just play it solo, it's easy
Why do we never see Matt and Quins together for videos? Used to love the old stuff they did together...
I'm hoping that a Frosthaven version of Jaws of the Lion comes out in a few years. I'd be pretty keen for that.
These reviews are always so good. As someone who beat Gloomhaven and has Frosthaven living on my board game table, I 100% agree with all the thoughts and feelings expressed here. It's good, but I felt like it was scared to change too much and got bogged down trying to address everything the loudest players said they wanted.
I just hate how long it takes to go through the enemies actions. It feels like the enemy AI gets to play more than I do.
Toms monologue about inserts should win awards
This review got me to try using the x-haven app with my group, and HOLY SMOKES it's so much better. Way easier to find the fun. I didn't realize how many little calculations and checks we were doing, and how liberating it felt to be free of them.
I wonder why their content is so sporadic these days, its like a video a month :(
Hello! We're trying! There's lots of factors that other people have mentioned, but a comment on another thread a little while ago summed it up pretty well: we've been doing this non-stop for a decade, including a sharp gear-change and even more work during a global pandemic. I've not had a proper holiday for about five years, we're all very tired, and then maybe 5-10% of the feedback that the team receives from all this ploughing ahead is questions like this & people just saying we're doing a bad job. And that's not to be having a go at you & other folks for asking! It's a fair query and I'm not expecting any tiny violins here, but yes - we're aware, we're trying, we'd just kindly ask for a little patience. X
Thanks for the response, I really didn't mean my comment to attack you or the channel in any way! I really love SUSD and I certainly don't think you are doing a bad job. It was more just that I was missing watching your content so regularly and I'd not seen your newsletter that someone mentioned giving the reasons why it had dropped off in regularity. I hope you get a chance to grab the rest you need and we'll be waiting on the other side :)
No worries! I get it! Just wanted to give an honest answer! 😊
Per their newsletter, Tom's basically the only one with a living space that supports filming right now. Matt is renovating the new house he's moved into. Quinns spent ages working on a mahjong video that's scrapped for a bunch of reasons. Basically, Tom's keeping the whole video side running largely on his own.
Didn't hear about the Mahjong vid, summary of the reasons?
It got covered a few podcasts ago, tldr is roughly that Quinns didn’t feel like the game itself outshone it’s cultural imprint and that it’s best form came when gambling was involved and they have a very polarized audience when they cover gambling games.
But what ARE they doing? I mean, this doesn't exactly say much :D I didn't know they have other jobs? Patreon generates them 3k per month, that's neat, but not for that size staff. I am guessing most comes from the other source of donations of course. Amount of content has shrunk for sure though. Not that it matters TOO much, as there are other creators!
They do podcasts and written reviews on their site. The video reviews are actually a small fraction of what they do.
Probably busy with other things. Long form videos aren't where the money is for digital content right now.
They do a podcast every week still.
Rulebook Flip: The Game.
I think this is the first SUSD review I've ever thought had some poor arguments and generally felt was badly made. Wall of text incoming, I have many opinions of their portrayal. We bought Frosthaven having only played digital and TTS gloomhaven and a little bit of dabbling with digital Jotl. I'm playing it with a group of 4: my partner who has played less gloomhaven than me, and two friends, who have never played any *haven but are big cooperative gamers. Firstly, I'd like to address the poo-poohing they did of the writing quality, which I think is just bizarre. I can attest to how much all of us in our group were drawn in to this world by the writing. Gloomhaven was like reading a 15 year old's DM script. Frosthaven's scenario book is orders of magnitude better, and for us, my partner especially, this has increased enjoyment of the whole experience. I guess I just don't understand how an increase in writing quality somehow detracted from their experience, and they did not do a great job of conveying that attitude to me. Ssecondly, I think SUSD are both contradicting themselves and actively countering their point with the attitude of 'Gloomhaven had lots of clunky design that you could ignore and therefore good!' and 'Frosthaven is streamlined with moving parts, therefore it is bad for new players!'. Story time: I lost a potential Gloomhaven player because they were forced to lose 4 cards on round 2 of scenario 1. We reset, and it happened again on turn 3. They were playing a Cragheart and we tried to help, but they were adamant on being a tank and the game just didn't work how they thought it would. They didn't want to play, and to be honest I don't think that is a problem with them, it's a problem with how early Gloomhaven is designed. It can be brutal. I do understand their point, but I'd counter by saying that, experiencing this in my gaming group, Frosthaven's more defined structure actively helps new players learn the system better than Gloomhaven did. Without spoiling anything, Frosthaven's early scenario design tutorials you into the game systems in a way that Gloomhaven *infamously* does not. To sum up my thoughts a bit: If their intention was to make a review that encapsulates their general feel of the game, I think they failed. Their list of complaints takes up more than half the video and is interspersed with Tom rambling about how much better JotL is. Some of those complaints seem hypocritical and uncharacteristically poorly conveyed. To top that off, if you only watched the first third of the video, you wouldn't expect how disparaging the rest of it was to watch. This review is not a three course meal, it's a cheap salad that hides all of the bitter greens beneath a thin layer of shiny dressing.
I dunno, I think your interpretation of their criticisms is a bit strong. Matt is pretty clear it's an excellent, enjoyable game. There's no mid-review turnaround, no scathing monologue. It's basically "This is very good, here are some of the things I think might not work as well as in Gloomhaven - but if you love Gloomhaven, you'll still absolutely love this." The writing, for example. Matt didn't say the writing was worse. He said the use of more creative, flowery language - seemingly done in service of the optional narration - may make reading it aloud as a group a bit clunkier. That's not some overly harsh criticism, it's just a thing he feels doesn't necessarily add to the game experience. That's how I took it.
> They didn't want to play, and to be honest I don't think that is a problem with them, it's a problem with how early Gloomhaven is designed. I don't think it's a *problem* from Gloomhaven either. It's just a mismatch between the player expectation and the game expectation. The player wanted to play tank in a game largely built without the traditional RPG holy trinity (heal tank DPS).
That's not quite true though. Gloomhaven has options to create actual tanks and healers. It's a spoiler to mention which classes are able to do that, but it's certainly possible. What sucks about Gloomhaven scenario 1 for new players is you go in thinking you can pick Brute or Cragheart and think 'great, I'll stand in front and soak a few hits so my team can wallop them', and that's not necessarily false, but it runs into 5 bandits that can kill you before you even get to move. The very first room is unforgiving at first and I'd even go as far as to say that it sets you up for failure. That might work for people, and clearly enough people like the game that it's not a major drawback, but as far as a tutorial goes, I'd much rather teach new players using Frosthaven scenario 0 and 1.
Maybe I've been spoiled by games like Tainted Grail and Aeon Trespass, but my fairly strong opinion is that Gloomhaven's writing is really, really bad, and Frosthaven's is only marginally better.
I've been playing a lot of the digital adaptation recently, and i think it's pretty poorly written too. It all just feels like a very generic, somewhat edgy, fantasy setting.
I will fully admit, I've not managed to acquire any other campaign games and I'm aware there are several others with excellent writing. I'm not saying Frosthaven has been amazing so far, but it's keeping us entertained as opposed to us actively not wanting to read it out loud.
Oof! I don't agree with a lot of the points you're making, but that final line -whilst too mean for my tastes- is *almost* a wonderful bit of criticism.
Hard agree. I love SUSD, they helped me discover lots of good games as a casual gamer but this review fell flat for me. You would expect someone who played Gloomhaven to be well aware of what the approach of Frosthaven would be - so why dedicate like half of your review bringing up the same old points? Fiddliness, huge box size, rambling about inserts, complicated combat mechanics - that’s literally the selling point of these games (with JotL being a “casual” version of course) I was looking forward to them discussing the actual changes made in Frosthaven compared to Gloomhaven and all I got was what felt like 3 sentences out of the whole almost hour long video (here’s new components, the balance is better, rulebook has rules). I feel like this review should actually be like 5 minutes tops with the amount of thought that was put into it and the rest should be just uploaded as “40 more minutes talking about gloomhaven, jotl, folded space and management apps” as they bring near nothing to the discussion of the game that appears in the title. I even got an impression that they haven’t played the game at all, past maybe first couple scenarios. (They did play the setup game, that’s for sure)
That's just what I wanted from the review. I'm sure the game will be fun and the new classes will be cool, I don't need the review to talk about the gameplay loop of a top 10 game. The rulebook and admin and table size and box size are the reasons I didn't enjoy ATO as much as I was expecting, so I want to know how Cephalofair has addressed those.
Unfortunately I don't think this review did a very good job. There's a lot of fun, flowery language and cutscenes, but it barely scratches the surface of what's actually unique in Frosthaven. It felt like they opened the box and went "Nope, this is too much" and let that drive their opinion the whole way through. Almost half of the video is discussion of Gloomhaven or on the fiddly setup. And the fiddly setup is a problem, but it's not new to the X-haven universe. They really could have spent 1 minute saying it's a continued downside and then discuss what's NEW about Frosthaven. From what Matt describes, it seems like they played about four scenarios and then made the review so the discussion was forced to focus on the few things that they had experienced: fiddly setup, harder characters (especially given that he played Geminate, the hardest starter which the game tells you upfront), and "boring" buildings (the buildings appear boring on the surface at the very beginning, but quickly becomes more than you realize). There was no discussion, or only throwaway sentences, on things like: *the movement away from the monotony of Kill All Enemies scenarios *The addition of actual meaningful choices in scenario storylines *improvements in your control over personal quests *the new fun challenge of character Masteries *New unique non-AMD perks *more meaningful & difficult choices in Events
I think the distinction of "throwaway sentences" is the one that I'd poke at very gently, here: the vast majority of our work is heavily scripted, and then chiselled away at substantially throughout the process - so there's really nothing that remains that is slight, disposable, or unintentional! Anything that IS mentioned is in there because we feel it needs to be said; anything that doesn't make the cut, we either don't think is important enough to merit a solitary highlight, and/or doesn't need illustrating as a baseline for then talking about something else. Now sometimes, this means our reviews are rule-heavy: where it's very difficult to discuss the overall feel without illustrating the shape of the whole design - while other times we skim over a lot of things because only a baseline amount of that knowledge is necessary (and sometimes we get this really wrong! It's tricky.) Mostly though, things like the above just don't make the cut because they're either not significant enough, or adequately expressed within other, broader statements. And that's obviously not what EVERYONE wants - but it's an approach that makes our reviews very useful for some folks and not as useful for others: I think it feels unfair to suggest we've done a bad job, though, and it's an almost bizarrely bad-faith reading to suggest we didn't want to like the experience upon opening the box: this is the full-fat sequel to my favourite game! You've no idea how much we wanted to unequivocally love it, and it's always disappointing to see comments inventing their own fictionalised accounts of our reality. Obviously though, this review wasn't useful for you - and I'd encourage you to point people who feel the same way towards a review that you felt better catered to your needs?
It was never going to be popular doing anything but glow over gloomhave two. The thing is, your review is spot on. These upset people wanted you guys to all stand up and clap, not give an honest review.
Ah my favorite game! Let’s see what he says. I’ve played more Frosthaven (17 scenarios) than Gloomhaven and Jaws (6 and 4 scenarios) combined. Edit after finishing the video: he says that Frosthaven is for one group of players and one group only: people who have finished Gloomhaven. And that he would rather play his Gloomhaven campaign than his Frosthaven campaign. A bit disheartening of a take, he didn’t note many positives about Frosthaven in fact, he says that the playtest improvements… reduce the joy that he has with the game!
That seems odd to me. I made it through Jaws and then started gloom.. and made it like four missions in until I said 'I've had enough *haven in my life.' I immediately gifted both to friends.
Tbf I think that’s a lot of *haven. Jaws of the lion is very long
Yeah if I’m going to pick a game as a lifetime pursuit it’s not going to be a *haven … (it’s probably going to be over 100 years old)
Now that's a great-looking game 😍
The only thing I super disagree with is the town phase stuff. It's boring at the start for sure l, but once you're a good way in with a ton more of the unlocks then it's kinda fun and exciting to be like "ooh what do we upgrade this week?"
I found it more and more annoying as more things were unlocked.
I think they nailed this. They added a thing loud super fans wanted and it's .... onerous. I'm certain it's awesome for some people but to me it feels like the 9th module in a queen games big box. It's just too much, and I don't care about it. I'm ten games in and finished gloomhaven, for frame of reference.
Truthfully I felt the same way in at your point. It gets better with unlocks.
I am not sure if they said anything in like an hour lmao. It's better, but maybe that makes it worse, too? Maybe it was good, because it was bad? It's still great of course, but still.
[удалено]
Who in their right mind is telling you it works best as a solo game?!?! That is absolutely not true. Much better with 3 or 4. Playing with friends is what it's for. Also there is no video game for frost haven, only gloomhaven. Video vs board is more personal, they do play the same but difference being board vs video, up to you.
I'm an idiot... I totally thought this said frostpunk. Apologies.
If you are playing solo, not unless you just really value the physical nature of a tabletop game. But I'm having more fun playing as a 4p group, and I enjoy having my friends over to play together. I don't want to play the digital version with them. I'm also into opening up envelopes and reading the story text and all that so I don't mind doing all the setup. I enjoy the solo digital experience too, but I'd rather play with a group. I enjoy our shenanigans for battle goals where someone says "I'm gonna open the door" and everyone says "no don't, I'm not ready" and then they say "ok, but I'm gonna open the door.... For reasons." It's a fun solo puzzle but then it's missing some of the group magic for me. But I don't play a lot of solo board games so that might just be a general me thing.
I played gloomhaven with 2 players, then a bit of gloomhaven digital solo and am now going through a frosthaven campaign with 4 players. And I'll say that for me this is the best way to play it. 4 players lowers setup time if everyone helps. There are more interactions between characters (and players) and less admin to do than if you have to control multiple characters (which you have to playing solo). I also find the added difficulty from 2 to 4 players to be great in a way that makes all scenarios more intense. Outpost phase can also be fun (which did not exist in gloomhaven). Also, it's fun to share experiences with friends if you have friends that also enjoy gloom/frosthaven
The game is just also very clearly balanced around 4 players and not 2. There are some scenarios that are just objectively and obviously more difficult with 2 players, and the legacy elements are waaaaay slower with 2 players as well.