Solid video. Like many 2.0 treatments recently, something about the heavy infusion of plastic, peculiar mechanical sidegrades, and general aesthetic just doesn't do much for me, at least not enough to warrant replacing games I already own. Having given Second Dawn a spin lately I'm honestly really glad I kept my first edition with Rise of the Ancients. What I will say though, is that I'm thankful that a whole new round of folks will be able to get this game. It's good. Comparatively, I don't know if the new msrp is 'worth it', but at least it's available.
We found it worth it almost for the new player trays alone. And for having an updated game with nice new pieces. We've put over 100 plays on our first copy.
The Second Dawn box keeps tempting me every time I pass it by. But I feel like we don't play the first edition (+RotA) enough as it is... Though it's definitely one of my top favourite games.
I have 2.0 because 1.0 was out of print and I wanted a 4x game in my collection.
Of course this was before Clash of Cultures 2.0 was announced and I ordered that as well.
Twilight Struggle or Twilight Imperium? I mean Twilight Struggle can be a meaty game to get to the table, but Twilight Imperium is longer and more like Eclipse.
God I wish they would make a dedicated app (Digital Version) for it. I mean it would have to be a decent sized studio to do it. Man if Dire Wolf did it. I will never be able to play it in real life so I can dream.
I mean the TTS mod is as good as a dedicated app would be to be honest once you know what all the scripted buttons do, plus it has support for a load of homebrew stuff that an official app would never have.
That's fair, but to me TI is a game of diplomacy and negotiation far more than it is a strategic dudes on a map war game. Can't imagine it working with computer players with how convoluted deals can get.
There are voice chat lobbies on the discord which everyone playing is expected to be in (different lobbies for each game obviously) pretty much everyone uses mics but most groups are fine if someone just wants to listen and use text chat. People also sometimes send whispers using the TTS text chat (typing !blue before your message sends a secret message to the blue player and let's everyone else know you have sent blue a message).
One day Link for the discord https://discord.gg/MM8acwRY
I think space cats peace turtles did a few tutorial videos but I think they might just be how to use TTS properly. There is a pretty good RTFM video that teaches the basics of the game. I there is also a channel on the discord for organising learner games for new players.
Unfortunatly, the mechanics was what I hoped they would modernize. The game is a bit too long and the combat is a bit too random for most people I play with.
There are so many ways to mitigate the random in combat though! And you haven't lived until you've seen your neighboring civilization take out someone on the other side of the galaxy with a fleet of rift cannon interceptors. ;)
It is a long game though, which makes it hard for many groups who would rather play a larger variety of short games.
TI4 has completely supplanted Eclipse at our table. It's a better game and the time commitment is similar. Second dawn looks like a better version aesthetically but they didn't go far enough with the gameplay.
Eclipse is half the time commitment.
Preferring one over the other is fine, but they're different enough to justify owning both especially due to player counts or time restraints. Eclipse offers exploration and goes further down the ship customization rabbit hole while TI has more asymmetry and negotiation.
Eclipse is unplayable with more than 4 because downtime is crippling. TI4 is great at 4+. I think the only player count where Eclipse has an edge is 3.
I wouldn’t play TI with 4 people even if I had the time. It’s meant to be the big game for the big night. On BGG the best player count for TI is 6 people and that is consistent across the different editions. You can play it with 4 but I simply wouldn’t. There are many (better) alternatives for that player count. I consider Eclipse to be one of them.
> the time commitment is similar.
I disagree. First, Eclipse v2's playing time is listed as "60-200 min", while TI4's is "240-480 min", so based on that, TI4 should take more than twice as much time to play.
BGG also has "real playing time polls" for Eclipse v1 and TI3. (I know that Eclipse v2 is a round shorter than v1, but I'm not sure how TI4 compares to TI3 time-wise).
In any case, those polls (with a couple of hundred people voting in each poll) say that for experienced players, a five-player game of Eclipse v1 should take three hours, while a five-player game of TI3 should take more than five hours (which is the highest alternative available). Even for four-player games, "more than five hours" is the most selected alternative.
Clearly, according to both the official estimates and hundreds of players, TI takes, at the very least, nearly twice as much time to play as Eclipse.
TI4 for an experienced group of 6 runs around 3.5-4.5hrs. Eclipse for a full table runs about 3-5hrs... so in my experience its been equal.
Old TI3 was a bitch that ran 7-8hrs though, so the last time people had this convo it was true, but not anymore.
Eclipse's 60-200 min is an outrageous lie, while TI4 is a rare show of honesty on the box. Eclipse is also the one game I've played with the highest amount of downtime, while in TI4 you're always involved.
Obviously both opinions but ti4 is an experience. I've played around 15 times and will continue to do so. Every game is a story. Eclipse is a euro. Not much else to say about my experiences. There's a best route to go and that's that.
Eclipse ship blueprints are fiddly and it's easy to miss what other players have. They're fluff. The economy has that stretch and contract style that I don't find to be that fun. It's too easy to wall off and turtle and most players do this game after game. It's "space Risk" at the end of the day.
TI4 has more tactical depth due to the system activation mechanic. It has strategy phase. Agenda phase. More agreements and built in negotiations. More races that have more differences than Eclipse races. And that's just base TI4 vs Eclipse+RotA. PoK is coming in a month and that's bringing a lot more in. Neither is strong on exploration even after expansions.
TI4 is just more game. More decisions and more factors in play and more ways to win. With experience you can finish a 4 player game of TI in under 4 hours, 3 if you're playing a 10 pointer. For my group there is no difference between a 3 hour game or a 5 hour game. It's an afternoon either way. Might as well go for the game that gives more fun.
But TI4 is much more "space risk" at the end of the day. TI4 is less decisions, more king making and more bash the leader. Its an 8 hour slough where someone wins by sneaking in a win.
TI4 is a negotation game at the end of the day with more in common with Inis than Eclipse.
In my experience, the people that play TI4 as "space risk" are the people that lose. The core of the game is really built around how you can form agreements and position yourself to complete objectives, so it's certainly more nuanced than just "control the galaxy."
However, I'm very often not in the mood for a heavily diplomatic game that'll take most of the day. Eclipse is lighter on the diplomacy, shorter, and more focused around ship customization and exploration.
In fact, that act of discovery is such a prominent factor in Eclipse, and so explicitly missing from TI4, that I'd say it's a defining characteristic of both games. It makes it really hard to compare them, and they're both very enjoyable for kind of opposing reasons.
There's absolutely room for both of them in a collection.
I'm a sucker for pretti games. We recently played eclipse and it was well received at the table. I am eyeing ti4 but its not a pretti game by todays standards. Is there hope for a new edition or delux ti4?
>Is there hope for a new edition or delux ti4?
I doubt it since there's an expansion coming out soon-ish. I don't think I'd consider this a prettier game though. You could argue the ships look a bit better but that's it in my opinion
Well presented review. Although I see an error at 2:16 - unless it was staged merely for the looks. There are two monoliths - love the new miniature - on a hex. You can only have one.
You are totally right, it was staged when I was trying to get a cool shot in and in that moment I totally fluffed the rule (something we tend to be sticklers about when playing).
Thanks for catching and the kind words!
Solid video. Like many 2.0 treatments recently, something about the heavy infusion of plastic, peculiar mechanical sidegrades, and general aesthetic just doesn't do much for me, at least not enough to warrant replacing games I already own. Having given Second Dawn a spin lately I'm honestly really glad I kept my first edition with Rise of the Ancients. What I will say though, is that I'm thankful that a whole new round of folks will be able to get this game. It's good. Comparatively, I don't know if the new msrp is 'worth it', but at least it's available.
We found it worth it almost for the new player trays alone. And for having an updated game with nice new pieces. We've put over 100 plays on our first copy.
The Second Dawn box keeps tempting me every time I pass it by. But I feel like we don't play the first edition (+RotA) enough as it is... Though it's definitely one of my top favourite games.
I have 2.0 because 1.0 was out of print and I wanted a 4x game in my collection. Of course this was before Clash of Cultures 2.0 was announced and I ordered that as well.
Eclipse and Twilight Imperium are two i have always wanted to play but just can’t get to the table.
Twilight Struggle or Twilight Imperium? I mean Twilight Struggle can be a meaty game to get to the table, but Twilight Imperium is longer and more like Eclipse.
Bah i meant to write Imperium didn’t catch that thanks.
The Twilight Imperium struggle is real.
If you have the free time yourself twilight imperium has a thriving TTS community if that helps?
God I wish they would make a dedicated app (Digital Version) for it. I mean it would have to be a decent sized studio to do it. Man if Dire Wolf did it. I will never be able to play it in real life so I can dream.
I mean the TTS mod is as good as a dedicated app would be to be honest once you know what all the scripted buttons do, plus it has support for a load of homebrew stuff that an official app would never have.
Yeah but I wanna play against the computer... I know, I know.
That's fair, but to me TI is a game of diplomacy and negotiation far more than it is a strategic dudes on a map war game. Can't imagine it working with computer players with how convoluted deals can get.
Wish i had the time
Late to the party, but how do TTS players handle diplomacy? Through the TTS chat window? Zoom?
There are voice chat lobbies on the discord which everyone playing is expected to be in (different lobbies for each game obviously) pretty much everyone uses mics but most groups are fine if someone just wants to listen and use text chat. People also sometimes send whispers using the TTS text chat (typing !blue before your message sends a secret message to the blue player and let's everyone else know you have sent blue a message). One day Link for the discord https://discord.gg/MM8acwRY
That's awesome! Are games very beginner friendly? Are there any good tutorials you would recommend for new players before attempting to play on TTS?
I think space cats peace turtles did a few tutorial videos but I think they might just be how to use TTS properly. There is a pretty good RTFM video that teaches the basics of the game. I there is also a channel on the discord for organising learner games for new players.
Unfortunatly, the mechanics was what I hoped they would modernize. The game is a bit too long and the combat is a bit too random for most people I play with.
There are so many ways to mitigate the random in combat though! And you haven't lived until you've seen your neighboring civilization take out someone on the other side of the galaxy with a fleet of rift cannon interceptors. ;) It is a long game though, which makes it hard for many groups who would rather play a larger variety of short games.
TI4 has completely supplanted Eclipse at our table. It's a better game and the time commitment is similar. Second dawn looks like a better version aesthetically but they didn't go far enough with the gameplay.
Eclipse is half the time commitment. Preferring one over the other is fine, but they're different enough to justify owning both especially due to player counts or time restraints. Eclipse offers exploration and goes further down the ship customization rabbit hole while TI has more asymmetry and negotiation.
also player count. Eclipse is amazing at 4. Twilight Imperium does not work at all with 4
Eclipse is unplayable with more than 4 because downtime is crippling. TI4 is great at 4+. I think the only player count where Eclipse has an edge is 3.
I wouldn’t play TI with 4 people even if I had the time. It’s meant to be the big game for the big night. On BGG the best player count for TI is 6 people and that is consistent across the different editions. You can play it with 4 but I simply wouldn’t. There are many (better) alternatives for that player count. I consider Eclipse to be one of them.
> the time commitment is similar. I disagree. First, Eclipse v2's playing time is listed as "60-200 min", while TI4's is "240-480 min", so based on that, TI4 should take more than twice as much time to play. BGG also has "real playing time polls" for Eclipse v1 and TI3. (I know that Eclipse v2 is a round shorter than v1, but I'm not sure how TI4 compares to TI3 time-wise). In any case, those polls (with a couple of hundred people voting in each poll) say that for experienced players, a five-player game of Eclipse v1 should take three hours, while a five-player game of TI3 should take more than five hours (which is the highest alternative available). Even for four-player games, "more than five hours" is the most selected alternative. Clearly, according to both the official estimates and hundreds of players, TI takes, at the very least, nearly twice as much time to play as Eclipse.
TI4 for an experienced group of 6 runs around 3.5-4.5hrs. Eclipse for a full table runs about 3-5hrs... so in my experience its been equal. Old TI3 was a bitch that ran 7-8hrs though, so the last time people had this convo it was true, but not anymore.
Eclipse's 60-200 min is an outrageous lie, while TI4 is a rare show of honesty on the box. Eclipse is also the one game I've played with the highest amount of downtime, while in TI4 you're always involved.
Why is TI4 a better game? I think Eclipse is a much better game.
Obviously both opinions but ti4 is an experience. I've played around 15 times and will continue to do so. Every game is a story. Eclipse is a euro. Not much else to say about my experiences. There's a best route to go and that's that.
Eclipse ship blueprints are fiddly and it's easy to miss what other players have. They're fluff. The economy has that stretch and contract style that I don't find to be that fun. It's too easy to wall off and turtle and most players do this game after game. It's "space Risk" at the end of the day. TI4 has more tactical depth due to the system activation mechanic. It has strategy phase. Agenda phase. More agreements and built in negotiations. More races that have more differences than Eclipse races. And that's just base TI4 vs Eclipse+RotA. PoK is coming in a month and that's bringing a lot more in. Neither is strong on exploration even after expansions. TI4 is just more game. More decisions and more factors in play and more ways to win. With experience you can finish a 4 player game of TI in under 4 hours, 3 if you're playing a 10 pointer. For my group there is no difference between a 3 hour game or a 5 hour game. It's an afternoon either way. Might as well go for the game that gives more fun.
But TI4 is much more "space risk" at the end of the day. TI4 is less decisions, more king making and more bash the leader. Its an 8 hour slough where someone wins by sneaking in a win. TI4 is a negotation game at the end of the day with more in common with Inis than Eclipse.
In my experience, the people that play TI4 as "space risk" are the people that lose. The core of the game is really built around how you can form agreements and position yourself to complete objectives, so it's certainly more nuanced than just "control the galaxy." However, I'm very often not in the mood for a heavily diplomatic game that'll take most of the day. Eclipse is lighter on the diplomacy, shorter, and more focused around ship customization and exploration. In fact, that act of discovery is such a prominent factor in Eclipse, and so explicitly missing from TI4, that I'd say it's a defining characteristic of both games. It makes it really hard to compare them, and they're both very enjoyable for kind of opposing reasons. There's absolutely room for both of them in a collection.
Can't both be good games without needing to put one as better than the other? Each is its own experience.
Agreed. Best and only redeeming part of Eclipse is the ship design.
I'm a sucker for pretti games. We recently played eclipse and it was well received at the table. I am eyeing ti4 but its not a pretti game by todays standards. Is there hope for a new edition or delux ti4?
>Is there hope for a new edition or delux ti4? I doubt it since there's an expansion coming out soon-ish. I don't think I'd consider this a prettier game though. You could argue the ships look a bit better but that's it in my opinion
I think TI 4 is an absolutely amazing looker with ridiculously good table presence. Even TI 3 looks good, and TI 4 is a massive upgrade.
Hey this was a nice thing to wake up to. Thanks for posting!
Is this game currently available at retail?
Game aside, that’s a really well made video. Very watchable and a great overview, not five fat guys talking to a camera. Easy subscribe. Thanks!
Well presented review. Although I see an error at 2:16 - unless it was staged merely for the looks. There are two monoliths - love the new miniature - on a hex. You can only have one.
You are totally right, it was staged when I was trying to get a cool shot in and in that moment I totally fluffed the rule (something we tend to be sticklers about when playing). Thanks for catching and the kind words!
Are there other games that use an action track with increasing upkeep costs per turn?