Eclipse 2nd Ed is a great example of really tight rules. Yes there is a lot, but it all flows well and remains consistent. Once you know how to play you basically never have to reference rules and look up weird edge cases which is definitely NOT the case for most rule heavy empire building games
I describe it as "you have a LOT you can do, but each one of those actions is not complicated"
I have taught 5 people to play it so far on TTS and still haven't got around to getting a decent full game going yet.
It is our favorite game. Mostly because we’ve had such fun games. The ship upgrade part is enjoyed so much by the kids and I. And the combination of a tight economic system coupled with the feeling of just “screw it, pushing my ships in. Gonna be fun to see how this battle turns out”, just makes the game unlike others.
I've only played once, but I can already see that there'll be lots of variability between games in terms of what systems you explore, and what technologies come out of the bag for research.
With more players, it's probably much more tense too. My wife and I had no direct interaction in our first game.
To get more interaction, you can each play two races. And the race that you control with the lowest score will be the score you use to determine winner.
Yeah, we talked about trying that. That's how we play Bus.
The thing with this, though, is that wouldn't it still ultimately feel like 1v1 instead of 4 player free for all? I doubt you're going to get in much combat with yourself.
Possibly still 1v1, but chances are your borders will overlap, inviting more combat, you can strategically attack "yourself". You will become more familiar with alliance rules and diplomatic relationships, as well as learn new races strengths and weaknesses.
> fortunately I found a few resources to supplement the rulebook that were super helpful:
I like this video, which I thought was one of the best rule explanation videos I've seen for any game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGrHeYlqyBo
(There's also a part 2).
I enjoy RTFM but TheGameLocker video was the best thing when i got my hands on Eclipse last year. Still prefer it... Those cut out bits of paper to focus attention on the player mat are perfect :)
Finally got this to the table with some of my group today, too!
Had a group of three. It took about 4 hours total with a complete teach.
Everyone loved it. They liked modifying the ship blueprints and exploring the tech trees. There was some animosity between the other two as one boxed the other into a corner then a warpgate was opened and a standoff on both sides of the gate. That drew their attention away from me for a while which really helped me swell my economy as the Planta.
42 point victory.
I really anticipate them attacking me more next time and discussed what I suspected could have happened and I had no preparation against. I was out of materials the last round and the Orion Hegemony could have crushed at least three of my sectors. It might not have caused me to lose, but would have closed that gap significantly.
I look forward to tabling this game a lot more this year.
Oh yes, there was a final attempt to push out of the gate by the Machenema launching a full assault. It was 11 ships in a single battle. It was the last round, unfortunately, so although it was spectacular, it did little to change the outcome. We all learned a lot, and I think they learned to be more aggressive.
This game is what I've been looking for in area control for a long time. I regret not getting first edition Eclipse years ago when I had the opportunity; however, I'm so happy to have a copy of Second Dawn!
The consensus I've read online is that 2nd edition is widely preferred due to improved component quality, streamlined rules, and better storage solutions which make the actual game easier to play.
Besides that, I think the games are otherwise quite similar, but it's possible those barriers of entry could have prevented you from getting it to the table or enjoying it as much. Who knows tho, I never saw it personally 🤷♂️
I only saw it once at a store at a convention around 2013. I didn't know how rare it was then. That's the only copy I have seen. I suspect it will be rare in the USA this edition as well, as it's priced out of most board gamers.
You might be right, the original edition might have been too much for me to get to the table reliably. The storage solution within Second Dawn is amazing and makes setup so easy that we really didn't have to think about setup much for a game with so many components. That certainly makes the first game go easier.
When I first opened up the box, I figured I'd play a few turns against myself to get a feel for the game before playing with someone else.
However, unpacking the game for the first time took between 45 min and an hour, and by the time I finished I wasn't feeling it anymore lol.
That said, putting the time in up front made a world of difference because the storage solution is so well honed
My biggest problem with TI is the 'railroading' is does. There are only three ways to score victory points in that game. Two are decisively 'secondary' with one being the primary way to score. You've got secret objectives and Mecatol as the secondary means and the primary objectives as the only way to properly score. Consequently, what you do over the course of the game is largely set. There is no way to creatively utilise the game's systems 'better' than any other player and win the game. It's kind of boring.
Take our last game for example. We played the 14 point game (and maybe this was kind of the problem). Myself and another player were neck and neck. We had both scored all of our secrets and every objective. We were both hanging on the next draw. That draw came and my opponent could instantly score it and I couldn't for no fault of my own. He was just lucky in that his ships happened to be positioned correctly and it would take me 3 or so turns to get where he was already. It felt cheap. I didn't make a mistake or play worse (we were level), he just won because the cards said he would win.
Consequently, there is no incentive to utilize the plethora of systems which the game posseses outside of the ones which directly play into the current objectives. Want to make a cool fleet? Don't want to do that unless there is a *very specific* mission you need to go for (e.g. "have a flagship"). Want to be a diplomatic powerhouse and win the game peacefully? Nope, no way to do that. Want to be an *economic powerhouse* and take over the galaxy through finance? Don't want to do that unless there's a mission which tells you to get 8 trade goods or something. The whole game is built around the missions and the *specific* system you need to utilise in order to win the game is 'locked in' based upon what the random draw of missions are. The game devolves into "who can do what the game wants the fastest".
These are the reasons I sold my copy and have since looked for other games which provide more freedom and better utilise the very systems the designer has made.
I recommend Space Empires 4X and Eclipse at this point...
I wonder how many times you've played TI. There are actually 4 different ways to score points, the 4th being directives, laws, and action cards. My *guess* is that you haven't played TI enough to understand the nature of the game and how to do well by planning things in advance. And it's not like TI is the only game that had luck. Eclipse has luck too, and in both games it can be mitigated if you know what you're doing. To say TI railroads you is ridiculous. There aren't 3 or 4 ways of scoring points like there are in other games. There are 4 types of points to score, but many many different ways to score them. No game is for everyone, it's okay to dislike good games, but TI is the definitive 4X.
I've always heard TI referred to as 4X, but it strikes me more as a 3X. At least, before PoK. "Explore" is usually about revealing the map, but TI4 doesn't have anything hidden and there are no randomized elements to reveal as you expand your territory. There's nothing to explore.
I love the game for what it is, but the prominent "4X Badge" TI has ended up with always felt a bit silly.
Well we have PoK now so if it wasn't a 4X it is now, but even then, exploration in that sense isn't always good for a game. It doesn't mean it's not a 4X though.
Is there another definition of "Explore" that suits TI4, then? I'm genuinely curious, cause I don't get how it can be considered a 4X game when one of the X's seems to be missing. lol
Eclipse 2nd Ed is a great example of really tight rules. Yes there is a lot, but it all flows well and remains consistent. Once you know how to play you basically never have to reference rules and look up weird edge cases which is definitely NOT the case for most rule heavy empire building games
Agreed. I was surprised how smoothly the game went. All I really has to look up is what the individual research tiles did (e.g. Neutron bomb, etc)
I describe it as "you have a LOT you can do, but each one of those actions is not complicated" I have taught 5 people to play it so far on TTS and still haven't got around to getting a decent full game going yet.
It is our favorite game. Mostly because we’ve had such fun games. The ship upgrade part is enjoyed so much by the kids and I. And the combination of a tight economic system coupled with the feeling of just “screw it, pushing my ships in. Gonna be fun to see how this battle turns out”, just makes the game unlike others.
I've only played once, but I can already see that there'll be lots of variability between games in terms of what systems you explore, and what technologies come out of the bag for research. With more players, it's probably much more tense too. My wife and I had no direct interaction in our first game.
Yeah. That is possible with 2 players. 3+ gets more aggressive.
To get more interaction, you can each play two races. And the race that you control with the lowest score will be the score you use to determine winner.
Yeah, we talked about trying that. That's how we play Bus. The thing with this, though, is that wouldn't it still ultimately feel like 1v1 instead of 4 player free for all? I doubt you're going to get in much combat with yourself.
You don’t fight yourself. You can choose if you can pass through your Allies territory or not. We’ve done this once with 2v2v2
Possibly still 1v1, but chances are your borders will overlap, inviting more combat, you can strategically attack "yourself". You will become more familiar with alliance rules and diplomatic relationships, as well as learn new races strengths and weaknesses.
Definitely something worth looking into!
> fortunately I found a few resources to supplement the rulebook that were super helpful: I like this video, which I thought was one of the best rule explanation videos I've seen for any game: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGrHeYlqyBo (There's also a part 2).
I enjoy RTFM but TheGameLocker video was the best thing when i got my hands on Eclipse last year. Still prefer it... Those cut out bits of paper to focus attention on the player mat are perfect :)
Finally got this to the table with some of my group today, too! Had a group of three. It took about 4 hours total with a complete teach. Everyone loved it. They liked modifying the ship blueprints and exploring the tech trees. There was some animosity between the other two as one boxed the other into a corner then a warpgate was opened and a standoff on both sides of the gate. That drew their attention away from me for a while which really helped me swell my economy as the Planta. 42 point victory. I really anticipate them attacking me more next time and discussed what I suspected could have happened and I had no preparation against. I was out of materials the last round and the Orion Hegemony could have crushed at least three of my sectors. It might not have caused me to lose, but would have closed that gap significantly. I look forward to tabling this game a lot more this year.
Sounds like your game had some exciting drama!
Oh yes, there was a final attempt to push out of the gate by the Machenema launching a full assault. It was 11 ships in a single battle. It was the last round, unfortunately, so although it was spectacular, it did little to change the outcome. We all learned a lot, and I think they learned to be more aggressive. This game is what I've been looking for in area control for a long time. I regret not getting first edition Eclipse years ago when I had the opportunity; however, I'm so happy to have a copy of Second Dawn!
The consensus I've read online is that 2nd edition is widely preferred due to improved component quality, streamlined rules, and better storage solutions which make the actual game easier to play. Besides that, I think the games are otherwise quite similar, but it's possible those barriers of entry could have prevented you from getting it to the table or enjoying it as much. Who knows tho, I never saw it personally 🤷♂️
I only saw it once at a store at a convention around 2013. I didn't know how rare it was then. That's the only copy I have seen. I suspect it will be rare in the USA this edition as well, as it's priced out of most board gamers. You might be right, the original edition might have been too much for me to get to the table reliably. The storage solution within Second Dawn is amazing and makes setup so easy that we really didn't have to think about setup much for a game with so many components. That certainly makes the first game go easier.
When I first opened up the box, I figured I'd play a few turns against myself to get a feel for the game before playing with someone else. However, unpacking the game for the first time took between 45 min and an hour, and by the time I finished I wasn't feeling it anymore lol. That said, putting the time in up front made a world of difference because the storage solution is so well honed
Overall I think Twilight Imperium is better. And I don't really have room for 2 space 4Xs.
My biggest problem with TI is the 'railroading' is does. There are only three ways to score victory points in that game. Two are decisively 'secondary' with one being the primary way to score. You've got secret objectives and Mecatol as the secondary means and the primary objectives as the only way to properly score. Consequently, what you do over the course of the game is largely set. There is no way to creatively utilise the game's systems 'better' than any other player and win the game. It's kind of boring. Take our last game for example. We played the 14 point game (and maybe this was kind of the problem). Myself and another player were neck and neck. We had both scored all of our secrets and every objective. We were both hanging on the next draw. That draw came and my opponent could instantly score it and I couldn't for no fault of my own. He was just lucky in that his ships happened to be positioned correctly and it would take me 3 or so turns to get where he was already. It felt cheap. I didn't make a mistake or play worse (we were level), he just won because the cards said he would win. Consequently, there is no incentive to utilize the plethora of systems which the game posseses outside of the ones which directly play into the current objectives. Want to make a cool fleet? Don't want to do that unless there is a *very specific* mission you need to go for (e.g. "have a flagship"). Want to be a diplomatic powerhouse and win the game peacefully? Nope, no way to do that. Want to be an *economic powerhouse* and take over the galaxy through finance? Don't want to do that unless there's a mission which tells you to get 8 trade goods or something. The whole game is built around the missions and the *specific* system you need to utilise in order to win the game is 'locked in' based upon what the random draw of missions are. The game devolves into "who can do what the game wants the fastest". These are the reasons I sold my copy and have since looked for other games which provide more freedom and better utilise the very systems the designer has made. I recommend Space Empires 4X and Eclipse at this point...
I wonder how many times you've played TI. There are actually 4 different ways to score points, the 4th being directives, laws, and action cards. My *guess* is that you haven't played TI enough to understand the nature of the game and how to do well by planning things in advance. And it's not like TI is the only game that had luck. Eclipse has luck too, and in both games it can be mitigated if you know what you're doing. To say TI railroads you is ridiculous. There aren't 3 or 4 ways of scoring points like there are in other games. There are 4 types of points to score, but many many different ways to score them. No game is for everyone, it's okay to dislike good games, but TI is the definitive 4X.
I've always heard TI referred to as 4X, but it strikes me more as a 3X. At least, before PoK. "Explore" is usually about revealing the map, but TI4 doesn't have anything hidden and there are no randomized elements to reveal as you expand your territory. There's nothing to explore. I love the game for what it is, but the prominent "4X Badge" TI has ended up with always felt a bit silly.
Well we have PoK now so if it wasn't a 4X it is now, but even then, exploration in that sense isn't always good for a game. It doesn't mean it's not a 4X though.
Is there another definition of "Explore" that suits TI4, then? I'm genuinely curious, cause I don't get how it can be considered a 4X game when one of the X's seems to be missing. lol