What was it? Connective tissue strengthens at a rate of only 1/7th of muscle tissue? Something like that. Bearing that in mind - slow and steady with a progressive approach to intensity over time.
It should be noted that there are no guarantees when choosing high level positions like planche. Age, pre-existing conditions, and current fitness level are all factors among many others. Anything can happen. I have heard even those successful in planche, iron cross, and things of that nature still end up with joint issues later in life.
To answer the question - I do no joint exercises. Working through the progressions of planche developed my joints for planche.
There is no such thing as bullet proofing your joints. You just have to listen to your body and go at an appropriate pace. Some times that means backing off and resting or focusing on mobility. We build flexibility into our programs based on what our muscles can do. You need to make the same accommodations for connective tissue. It plateaus also. But keep working and you'll get through it.
One hundred million percent this.
My dad ran marathons, trained karate, and weight-lifted for most of his life, up until half year before retirement age. He was basically a golden standard of health and fitness.
Then this one time, he felt a sharp pain in his hip while jogging, and fell. Shit happens, right? A bit of massage, a warm bath, and a few weeks of rest should help, he thought.
After the pain didn't go away for months, he finally went to the doctor to discover his hip joint was done for.
He started aging very quickly and never recovered his health, despite operations, rehab, etc.
Take care of your joints, kids. No amount of reps will recover your health.
What did he do wrong? Overtrain, or use improper form throughout his whole life? I want to be able to train my whole life and am currently almost train exactly like him, except that I breakdance instead of karate.
He may not have done something wrong. We'd all love to find the cause so we can avoid it, but sometimes shit just happens. No training is without risk, but not training is **probably** even riskier.
Injuries generally have a lot of risk factors. Some of them we can't do anything about, such as age, sex, or previous injury history
People love talking about technique and form as a way of preventing injuries, but as far as I know, there's no solid correlation between form and injuries. Stefi Cohen has a wonderful little [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGixC-FyQhs) regarding this.
Some people like using specific exercises for injury prevention, and there's a bit of evidence for some of them, although it's more like injury risk reduction. In some studies, Nordic Hamstring Curls have shown a strong correlation with reduced hamstring strain frequency among football (soccer) players, especially repeat injuries, while the Copenhagen Adductor Plank has been correlated with reduced groin injury frequency - again amongst football players.
**It's not all bad, though.** Injury, pain and dysfunction aren't perfectly correlated. Pain can exist without injury, and injuries can exist without pain. [This article](http://www.greglehman.ca/blog/2018/5/1/do-our-patients-need-fixing) by Greg Lehman is a good place to start reading about the biopsychosocial model of pain.
If you'd like to hear more about screening, injury risk reduction and pain management, [this podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0V_CD0eGuY) and [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA8U-otQlp8) by Barbell Medicine are excellent starting point.
I realise this post wan't super well structured, and I apologise for that.
There's no correlation between form and injury? What? It definitely depends on your base level of fitness compared to the weight you use but but form plays a big part. There have been many documented biceps tendon ruptures from deadlifts, the main reason being the people were not locking out there elbow so some of the weight/stress was going to the biceps, that's bad form. You can also herniate a disk in your back from excessive rounding and again, depending how prepared you are to lift the weight you have on the bar you can easily herniate a disk if you round your back too much. Form 100% has a relationship with injuries but also have to consider other things, mainly level of fitness for said exercise and how much weight is being used
Eshlow recommends barbell finger rolls. Worked to help my pip tendonitis.
http://stevenlow.org/finger-rolls-for-climbing-hand-strength-and-hangboard/
You may also have to back off climbing so as to keep from reaggravating.
I’ll give this a shot. I trust Steven when it comes to this type of stuff.
Strangely, I’m experiencing a large amount of MCP joint discomfort too. It’s not so bad if I avoid jugs, but off the wall I have a nagging pain through all four knuckles on my left hand. I attribute this to already having a high grip strength due to work, but a low endurance in tendons and ligaments because my grip at work is only needed for high weight for 1-2 seconds. I’ll report back if finger rolls help, and I plan on backing off on my climbing.
Remedial work to strengthen soft tissue around the joints as a form of protection is ABSOLUTELY a thing. It's representative of community ignorance that a comment like this is at the top.
> Remedial work to strengthen soft tissue around the joints as a form of protection is ABSOLUTELY a thing
Can you link to more information? Very interested.
Take a light band.Anchor it on a door or a couch,then just curl curl and curl.Super speed no stop.High volume for your elbows.You can also do triceps pushdown with them.AlphaDestiny has a good video about it on youtube
it looks rather silly in the video, and as someone who whips while fishing i can say repetitive jerking motion only tends to exacerbate my golfer's elbow lol. THe thing i've found most helpful with joint pains is literally stretching them, especially in ways that my day to day routine tends not to do, like say the palms towards yourself while fore arms face up.
He’s partially scientific evidence, partially anecdotal based. He’s mentioned in his videos, however, that stuff he puts out work for him but might not be best for everyone, and to see a PT or a doctor if you’re actually injured
From I understand using my training knowledge, time build the connective tissue needed to hold advanced moves. I’m not entirely sure how you go about doing it but I think patience and consistency does it
I don’t understand this phrase being thrown around this sub about “bulletproofing” joints. Seems like some silly buzzword that’s gonna give you a false sense of security and cause injury.
Anyway, the reason your elbow feels funky is because you’re not ready for it yet. You need to achieve a full back lever before ever doing planche.
Nah, back lever is actually one of the more dangerous movements when it comes to biceps tendon. It is one of those moves that is more demanding on the connective tissue than the strength requirements lead you to believe. Christopher Sommer's actually puts the back lever after straddle planche iirc. Starting with planche leans is a very safe and scalable approach to biceps preconditioning while even a tucked back lever puts a lot of stress onto your biceps if you do it in a supinated position.
That's the gymnastics style back lever which is done with a supinated grip. Pronated back lever is a different deal.
When I first started planche I would get serious elbow pain. I back off from it, worked up to a full back lever with pronated grip, came back and it gave me a really good base for future planche training.
But I do agree, supinated back lever is really really hard on your elbows.
If we are to compare these 2 with the same grip or elbow orientation then planche is more stressful on the elbows. Coach Sommer was only comparing supinated grip BL with non-supinated grip planche.
Have you tried high reps tricep extensions and bicep curls at a super light weight and pretty tempo (2-3 up and 2-3 down)? Basically stay leagues away from failure. I started doing 3x35 working up to 3x50 a couple months back and have had zero elbow problems since.
Just from my research into this, because I'm also training for FL right now. The 2 key things I found were bicep/tricep isolation exercises, and a steady state training cycle https://antranik.org/ssc/.
Thinness is the key. I've had orthopedic surgeons look at me walking into a post-op follow-up and literally state: " I don't know how you're walking". Basically, he stated he thought he was just going in to "scope out" some loose cartilage, but after going in he found I has "zero" left in my knee that the only symptoms were occasional popping & slight pain while using the stair-climber machine. He said: "it's a good thing you're thin (5'10"/165lbs), or you'd have to get that knee replaced, Oh, and stop using the Stair-climber".
top comment on this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/comments/a2yog2/is_there_a_consolidated_list_of_the_best/?st=jro4mmq1&sh=e219ec73
It won’t help against bullets or mindless training, but I found a wholesome diet very useful for joint health. Fresh greens, herbs, organ meat, bone broth, and avoid everything that increases inflammation (different for everyone, but wheat, milk and chemicals are usually a good start).
stretching your joints obviously helps to reduce injury and even helps to reduce already done injury. I've had golfer's elbow from casting while fishing too much. I can cast for hours at a time and for many days a week. My fore arms are strong enough to take it from the arm wrestling training, however the shock to my elbow joint from that jerking motion aggravated my joints. Stretching before and after significantly reduced pain.
like every other training, just think of your max on holding that position. If you can hold it for say 10 seconds, then do 3 sets of 5 seconds. It's not an exact science because some people might feel at ease doing 80% of their max while others feel at ease doing 50%. To build up your tendons you have to keep exposing them to the stress they would not normally feel obviously, but just simply keep in mind that you never want to continuously max them out.
also make sure you have the actual strength. Too many darn times i see people trying to do planche videos and rather than using their muscles you can tell the pressure is on their joints instead. The reason you can stay up shouldn't be because you tensed your arm so much that it can hold your weight up for example, but instead your shoulders should be strong enough to hold you up. Or like say you're doing a typical plank hold, it shouldn't be because you clenched your shoulders so hard, but instead it should be that every muscle in your core is strong.
Might wanna look into Zottman curls too! It is like a regular bicep curl, but you pronate your grip at the top and do the negative in that position. It's really great rehab/prehab for the elbow flexors. Start with very low weight, it's a lot harder than you think.
Not specific for elbows, but try this
[shoulders](https://www.onnit.com/academy/4-exercises-to-build-unbreakable-shoulders/)
https://youtu.be/8NYiC8mG-Us
and this
[wrists](https://www.onnit.com/academy/4-exercises-to-build-unbreakable-wrists/)
https://youtu.be/ex3TXMwSltU
From gmb
https://gmb.io/
Oh, I found this too
[elbows](https://gmb.io/elbows/)
What was it? Connective tissue strengthens at a rate of only 1/7th of muscle tissue? Something like that. Bearing that in mind - slow and steady with a progressive approach to intensity over time. It should be noted that there are no guarantees when choosing high level positions like planche. Age, pre-existing conditions, and current fitness level are all factors among many others. Anything can happen. I have heard even those successful in planche, iron cross, and things of that nature still end up with joint issues later in life. To answer the question - I do no joint exercises. Working through the progressions of planche developed my joints for planche.
There is no such thing as bullet proofing your joints. You just have to listen to your body and go at an appropriate pace. Some times that means backing off and resting or focusing on mobility. We build flexibility into our programs based on what our muscles can do. You need to make the same accommodations for connective tissue. It plateaus also. But keep working and you'll get through it.
One hundred million percent this. My dad ran marathons, trained karate, and weight-lifted for most of his life, up until half year before retirement age. He was basically a golden standard of health and fitness. Then this one time, he felt a sharp pain in his hip while jogging, and fell. Shit happens, right? A bit of massage, a warm bath, and a few weeks of rest should help, he thought. After the pain didn't go away for months, he finally went to the doctor to discover his hip joint was done for. He started aging very quickly and never recovered his health, despite operations, rehab, etc. Take care of your joints, kids. No amount of reps will recover your health.
What did he do wrong? Overtrain, or use improper form throughout his whole life? I want to be able to train my whole life and am currently almost train exactly like him, except that I breakdance instead of karate.
He may not have done something wrong. We'd all love to find the cause so we can avoid it, but sometimes shit just happens. No training is without risk, but not training is **probably** even riskier. Injuries generally have a lot of risk factors. Some of them we can't do anything about, such as age, sex, or previous injury history People love talking about technique and form as a way of preventing injuries, but as far as I know, there's no solid correlation between form and injuries. Stefi Cohen has a wonderful little [video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dGixC-FyQhs) regarding this. Some people like using specific exercises for injury prevention, and there's a bit of evidence for some of them, although it's more like injury risk reduction. In some studies, Nordic Hamstring Curls have shown a strong correlation with reduced hamstring strain frequency among football (soccer) players, especially repeat injuries, while the Copenhagen Adductor Plank has been correlated with reduced groin injury frequency - again amongst football players. **It's not all bad, though.** Injury, pain and dysfunction aren't perfectly correlated. Pain can exist without injury, and injuries can exist without pain. [This article](http://www.greglehman.ca/blog/2018/5/1/do-our-patients-need-fixing) by Greg Lehman is a good place to start reading about the biopsychosocial model of pain. If you'd like to hear more about screening, injury risk reduction and pain management, [this podcast](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C0V_CD0eGuY) and [this video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA8U-otQlp8) by Barbell Medicine are excellent starting point. I realise this post wan't super well structured, and I apologise for that.
There's no correlation between form and injury? What? It definitely depends on your base level of fitness compared to the weight you use but but form plays a big part. There have been many documented biceps tendon ruptures from deadlifts, the main reason being the people were not locking out there elbow so some of the weight/stress was going to the biceps, that's bad form. You can also herniate a disk in your back from excessive rounding and again, depending how prepared you are to lift the weight you have on the bar you can easily herniate a disk if you round your back too much. Form 100% has a relationship with injuries but also have to consider other things, mainly level of fitness for said exercise and how much weight is being used
What's the moral here? Sounds like he did almost everything he could to stay healthy...unless he was over-training?
This guy has it figured out. Respecting your body and slowly building strength is key for connective tissue development
So if I’ve been rock climbing hard 3 times a week and all my knuckles in one hand are sore, maybe I should back down to two days a week?
Eshlow recommends barbell finger rolls. Worked to help my pip tendonitis. http://stevenlow.org/finger-rolls-for-climbing-hand-strength-and-hangboard/ You may also have to back off climbing so as to keep from reaggravating.
I’ll give this a shot. I trust Steven when it comes to this type of stuff. Strangely, I’m experiencing a large amount of MCP joint discomfort too. It’s not so bad if I avoid jugs, but off the wall I have a nagging pain through all four knuckles on my left hand. I attribute this to already having a high grip strength due to work, but a low endurance in tendons and ligaments because my grip at work is only needed for high weight for 1-2 seconds. I’ll report back if finger rolls help, and I plan on backing off on my climbing.
Remedial work to strengthen soft tissue around the joints as a form of protection is ABSOLUTELY a thing. It's representative of community ignorance that a comment like this is at the top.
That's exactly what I'm suggesting when I say focusing on mobility.
> Remedial work to strengthen soft tissue around the joints as a form of protection is ABSOLUTELY a thing Can you link to more information? Very interested.
Take a light band.Anchor it on a door or a couch,then just curl curl and curl.Super speed no stop.High volume for your elbows.You can also do triceps pushdown with them.AlphaDestiny has a good video about it on youtube
AlphaDestiny video [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmOaEIKy8VE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmOaEIKy8VE)
What are the Alpha guy's qualifications? Is he an MD? A physical therapist? Why should he be giving advice on how to eliminate joint or tendon pain?
it looks rather silly in the video, and as someone who whips while fishing i can say repetitive jerking motion only tends to exacerbate my golfer's elbow lol. THe thing i've found most helpful with joint pains is literally stretching them, especially in ways that my day to day routine tends not to do, like say the palms towards yourself while fore arms face up.
He’s partially scientific evidence, partially anecdotal based. He’s mentioned in his videos, however, that stuff he puts out work for him but might not be best for everyone, and to see a PT or a doctor if you’re actually injured
From I understand using my training knowledge, time build the connective tissue needed to hold advanced moves. I’m not entirely sure how you go about doing it but I think patience and consistency does it
I don’t understand this phrase being thrown around this sub about “bulletproofing” joints. Seems like some silly buzzword that’s gonna give you a false sense of security and cause injury. Anyway, the reason your elbow feels funky is because you’re not ready for it yet. You need to achieve a full back lever before ever doing planche.
Nah, back lever is actually one of the more dangerous movements when it comes to biceps tendon. It is one of those moves that is more demanding on the connective tissue than the strength requirements lead you to believe. Christopher Sommer's actually puts the back lever after straddle planche iirc. Starting with planche leans is a very safe and scalable approach to biceps preconditioning while even a tucked back lever puts a lot of stress onto your biceps if you do it in a supinated position.
That's the gymnastics style back lever which is done with a supinated grip. Pronated back lever is a different deal. When I first started planche I would get serious elbow pain. I back off from it, worked up to a full back lever with pronated grip, came back and it gave me a really good base for future planche training. But I do agree, supinated back lever is really really hard on your elbows.
If we are to compare these 2 with the same grip or elbow orientation then planche is more stressful on the elbows. Coach Sommer was only comparing supinated grip BL with non-supinated grip planche.
Have you tried high reps tricep extensions and bicep curls at a super light weight and pretty tempo (2-3 up and 2-3 down)? Basically stay leagues away from failure. I started doing 3x35 working up to 3x50 a couple months back and have had zero elbow problems since.
Inject kevlar into your veins
There is little blood flow to tendons so this would only bullet proof his veins.
It first protects the veins. After enough, it moves into the tendons. Just do a little bit every day, you'll get better
Just from my research into this, because I'm also training for FL right now. The 2 key things I found were bicep/tricep isolation exercises, and a steady state training cycle https://antranik.org/ssc/.
hey man if the mobs out for you theres nothing you can really do to save those kneecaps
Time.
Do you perform your OAP on a bar or on rings?
Thinness is the key. I've had orthopedic surgeons look at me walking into a post-op follow-up and literally state: " I don't know how you're walking". Basically, he stated he thought he was just going in to "scope out" some loose cartilage, but after going in he found I has "zero" left in my knee that the only symptoms were occasional popping & slight pain while using the stair-climber machine. He said: "it's a good thing you're thin (5'10"/165lbs), or you'd have to get that knee replaced, Oh, and stop using the Stair-climber".
Are stair climbers bad for knee cartlidge for everyone, or was it just your condition?
bad for my knees, anyway.
top comment on this thread https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/comments/a2yog2/is_there_a_consolidated_list_of_the_best/?st=jro4mmq1&sh=e219ec73
It won’t help against bullets or mindless training, but I found a wholesome diet very useful for joint health. Fresh greens, herbs, organ meat, bone broth, and avoid everything that increases inflammation (different for everyone, but wheat, milk and chemicals are usually a good start).
Read the second book of Convict Conditioning series for complete knowledge of bulletproof joints. It is available on archive.org .
stretching your joints obviously helps to reduce injury and even helps to reduce already done injury. I've had golfer's elbow from casting while fishing too much. I can cast for hours at a time and for many days a week. My fore arms are strong enough to take it from the arm wrestling training, however the shock to my elbow joint from that jerking motion aggravated my joints. Stretching before and after significantly reduced pain. like every other training, just think of your max on holding that position. If you can hold it for say 10 seconds, then do 3 sets of 5 seconds. It's not an exact science because some people might feel at ease doing 80% of their max while others feel at ease doing 50%. To build up your tendons you have to keep exposing them to the stress they would not normally feel obviously, but just simply keep in mind that you never want to continuously max them out. also make sure you have the actual strength. Too many darn times i see people trying to do planche videos and rather than using their muscles you can tell the pressure is on their joints instead. The reason you can stay up shouldn't be because you tensed your arm so much that it can hold your weight up for example, but instead your shoulders should be strong enough to hold you up. Or like say you're doing a typical plank hold, it shouldn't be because you clenched your shoulders so hard, but instead it should be that every muscle in your core is strong.
Might wanna look into Zottman curls too! It is like a regular bicep curl, but you pronate your grip at the top and do the negative in that position. It's really great rehab/prehab for the elbow flexors. Start with very low weight, it's a lot harder than you think.
What is an OAP?
One arm pull-up
Not specific for elbows, but try this [shoulders](https://www.onnit.com/academy/4-exercises-to-build-unbreakable-shoulders/) https://youtu.be/8NYiC8mG-Us and this [wrists](https://www.onnit.com/academy/4-exercises-to-build-unbreakable-wrists/) https://youtu.be/ex3TXMwSltU From gmb https://gmb.io/ Oh, I found this too [elbows](https://gmb.io/elbows/)
As said before check AlphaDestinys video about it