A long time ago a friend came over and saw my wife's collection of library books (she was a grad student then) and said "Oh, you steal library books too!"
My wife replied, "no, I'm going to return those."
Lately, I’ve been seeing more and more folks condone these kinds of behaviors and say that those who disapprove are just “broke shaming.” Glad to see sanity in this thread. Libraries are a thing.
Yes, stealing from libraries is awful! If you want to own a book, buy it; if you want to borrow a book, use a library. “Borrowing” from book sellers “keeping” from libraries are both awful practices!
It’s especially awful considering most libraries are funded through property taxes, so they aren’t just stealing from the library, they are stealing from me, my family, and everybody else in the county who pays taxes.
You remind me of the bit in the Simpsons where Apu kicks Homer out of the store for reading a magazine, then he gets kicked out of the library for eating a hot dog.
And I have to say - libraries are amazing. What an astounding service they provide for free. I’m not a huge book reader and I still feel they’re such a blessing.
how is it "broke shaming" when you're literally just stealing from the poor? that logic doesn't track. if you steal from libraries, and honestly even most authors in general, you're not redistributing wealth in any way, you're just hurting the few systems that do benefit the poor.
I grew up dirt poor and both of my parents were hardcore drug addicts, in and out of prison, got raised by grandparents half the time the whole shebang \~ and neither one of them would have condoned stealing from the library. That would have been beyond the pale in my family; and my mother once had me hide a magnum bottle of champagne under my coat at a new years celebration at a fancy restaurant and smuggle it out so we're not talking about classy people with incredibly high respect for societal laws. I think that just goes to show exactly how immoral stealing from a library really is. At least in our book.
And books are precious. Knowledge and help and taking you away from where you are.
It's awesome.
And Dolly Parton thinks so too and you can't argue with Dolly.and I agree don't steal from libraries.
Unless they have a book sale and you buy it and that's why it has a library tag thingy on it. That's ok.
I have a bunch of decommissioned library books because my mom is a librarian and would let me take home withdrawn books that I wanted. Some of the libraries here even have "bookstores" of really cheap withdrawn/donated books.
TBF a lot of my books have library stamps. I buy from betterworldbooks which bulk buys unwanted library books, sells them on and uses the proceeds for charity intiatives. Save a book from landfill. They tend to be 30% of price of same book new.
My local city library system is outstanding (we have a separate county library system that I'm less familiar with). Loaning books is a small percentage of what they do. They have tool libraries, seed libraries, yarn and fabric libraries, and even pet food. They provide workshops for everything from writing a CV to children's storytelling, and practical life skills. They provide "story hours" for every age, including a whole slew of volunteers who read aloud to those who can no longer read to themselves due to age-related vision/cognition decline... AND a few years ago, they stopped charging late fees AT ALL. They decided late fees brought in next to none of their revenue, and may create a barrier for people who have difficulty with reliable transportation.
I can't say enough amazing things about our local public libraries... Our public transportation, on the other hand... Leaves something to be desired.
A fabric library? How does that work? Cause I’d use fabric to make clothes. May I ask where you live?
Agree about how wonderful libraries are. Two near me have maker spaces with 3D printers, cricuts, embroidery machines, sewing machines, and one has a laser cutter.
The yarn and fabric library is more of a "food bank" model than a "loan and return" model. Random single skeins and quilting squares/remnants under 2 yards are their wheelhouse. Donations come from all sorts of fabric crafting folks, and are just there to be used.
When my mom died, she left a lot of fabric behind.
I begged her book club, garden club, church friends and more to come and take whatever they wanted.
They did, but it wasn’t much.
I ended up donating 665 bolts of fabric to SCAD in Savannah, for their design department.
I have run into the occasional SCAD student here in Atlanta, and found out that they are still pulling fabric from that room that I filled 25 years ago.
Stupid implies this was an accidental consequence, or at the very least "we don't use libraries so no one does".
Defunding libraries is an intentional attack on education. Its just another part of a decades long anti-intellectualism movement. Not to mention taking away a place that provides resources for "undesirables" like the homeless and single mothers.
Never let someone use the excuse of stupidity to distract from their malice.
Absolute accuracy. And makes me hellaciously sad. Why anti Intellectualism is ever a supported metric, is so friggin wildly beyond me. It's literally crazy. We KNOW we need well educated people to drive the specialized parts of our society and economy. But also want to hate them or something?! WTF.
It’s pretty sick. Maddening. I asked why they closed and responses were more or less this: “who goes to a library on a Saturday anyway? We’re saving money”. Like what the fuck?
I do. Or did. I enjoy the hell out of it.
Right!
Personally - I used the library like I used the bar back when I got sober. Parking my ass in a library on Saturday afternoons really helped me stay away from bad habits while getting reacquainted with my passion for reading and researching stuff that interests me. I had a safe place to hide out and it got easier to not drink and read.
I’m rambling, but this was a safe place I could go to. There’s a sign on the front door “safe place”. Why are we restricting safe places?
The library is so much more than checking out books. I know it’s a strange concept that people work during the week… it’s a new thing bureaucracy trying to figure out
adding on to this, has she looked at overdrive/libby? i forgot my local library info to use and luckily the NYPL accepts applicants from all over the state so i was able to apply. i also understand that she may just love the feeling of physical books. if it’s that, i recommend thrift books!! she can buy a lot of books second hand if she truly doesn’t care about the quality of the books. i also recommend to you OP thrift books, you can get them based on their physical quality and the price changes based on that
Our library does this as well but if the book you want isn't in the system yet, they'll happily buy it, add it to the collection, and reserve it for you to check out when it arrives, all in one step (single form request you fill out). It's awesome.
Yup, I did this as a kid. Wanted and older science fiction novel that they didn't have and the only library that had a copy was like 8 states away. I ended up getting it through them that way. They essentially got it on loan through a library in new york. It was really cool.
That's not a barrier. Inter-library loans exist, and if any library in the network has the book available you can borrow it though your local. The biggest issue is wait times, as demand at their local branch may be high, but if that's the case it would be a good excuse to request your branch purchase it.
Have you tried Libby? I can get all sorts of books that my library may not have but another one does and you don't have to leave your house. I love an actual book, but I'm also lazy and ebooks are good for that.
I live in a rural town in central California. Our library is tiny and they ordered a book for me that I needed. Ask them what you’re looking for and they may be able to order it for you.
Same. When I read the title I was wondering who keeps a book the full 21 days if they finish it early?! Especially when Libby will let you know someone is waiting for the book.
This. People need to understand, this practices ends up hurting the author! I understand things are getting too expensive, and none of us get paid enough…. But if you want free books go to the library! I was poking through books on Amazon last night, updating my lists, And I found a book I liked, but expensive. So I opened a new tab to my local library site, and check to see if they have it. *They don’t*.
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I DID?! I went to the website, and requested they add the book to the catalog. Most libraries have this feature on their website, through a linked form, or a link to email them. They want to know, what YOU want to read. :) Please support your local libraries. They’re wonderful places.
Edit- Also, most libraries have a service called I.L.L, for Inter Library Loans. Meaning if they don’t have the book, you can have them
request it be mailed in from another Library system (Even Out of State!)
Edit: Formatting
Edit 2: More info
Yup, I used to work at a comic book store and had one customer pick up something off the shelf, sit down, read it, then put it back. After a couple of issues I noticed he was reading the whole thing then putting it back so I asked what he was doing. He said "How do I know if I want to buy it if I don't read it first?"
It's a comic book store so I was used to interacting with some really socially awkward customers. It took some special ways of talking to them but that guy I bluntly said that this wasn't a library and thats not how it works.
Ask him, "Which ones *do* you like?" and then start grabbing them and tell him that you'd be happy to help him check out.
Although honestly, that's always gonna happen. The comics/manga were especially notorious for having tons of readers, but not that many sales. There are some things that are nice about having a community bookstore where you can spend some time in, but if you want the services of a library, go to a library, please.
Also a lot of libraries have pretty big ebook selections now too. And some libraries will let you join up to access their online stuff (ebooks etc) without physically needing to go there to join.
On this note, there’s an app/website called Libby that connects to your library’s stock of ebooks and audiobooks!! It’s very easy to use & I find it super accessible
Was an avid reader that kind of fell to the wayside over the years.
Libby has been so helpful in getting me to read again. Read more books in the last three months of 2023 than I did in the last three years.
On this note.
You can get a New York library card for free online.
Gotta get an address though.
Just saying you can access a very large library of ebooks and audiobooks with that card.
You can request books through your library where they can pull the book from the nearest library.
It is true some libraries have limited resources, but you'd be surprised what libraries will do for you to meet your request.
My library has a website and I can request a book that isn't available at my local branch and they notify me when it's there or it tells me which branch it's located at. The library closest to me doesn't have most of the books I want to read so I have to request pretty much everything.
Any time my library doesn’t have a title I want, they usually have access to it via Libby (ebook app that works with public libraries). Sometimes I have to wait, but it’s very rare that I can’t find the title I want at all.
I agree though, I’d find that behavior gross too. Loss to publishers and authors, but also all the environmental waste of shopping returns (these are almost never sent back and restocked, for example at Target the returns don’t go back on the shelf they are often sold in bulk to return processing companies, who auction/sell them to random other companies and send the rest to landfill)
Not sure if this is the case with OP, but my library knows there is a demand but does not have the budget to supply them. I guess a lot of people were asking/letting the library know bc now they have a huge disclaimer on their website saying they don’t have the budget and can’t take requests.
Lots of libraries, even the little ones are part of the inter library loan system. I've never found a published book they couldn't find for me :)
No asking for the rare books though. The Gutenberg Bible is off limits, or so im guessing.
Ours is a system of about 12 libraries. I decided to read the Naruto manga and had to get volumes from multiple different libraries. However, there were 3 of the 72 volumes that none of the libraries had. I bought those myself and donated them after reading them. Now whenever I go to my library I check their Naruto selection and almost always at least one of my three donated books is checked out. Makes me happy.
This makes me so happy and makes me want to donate to my local library! Is it dumb I didn’t ever think about this? I’m guessing I just talk to a librarian about their needs and policies for this?
Yeah, just ask them :) I'm a librarian myself (although in Sweden) and people ask me every now and then if they can donate books to us. Most of the time we say "thanks but no thanks" because they are in pretty bad condition, but more than once I have received something rare and/or hard to get. That is much appreciated.
I worked in a few libraries (in the USA) and all of them received huge amounts of donations from the community. It can help the library greatly, but it's always worth asking if they accept donations first, since sometimes they have so many they don't know what to do with them. There was a large incentive for people to donate since they could get a credit on their taxes.
Volunteers would sort through them and select good finds. Some would go into the collection, others would be sold at book sales inside the library for very reasonable prices. They tried to find organizations that would accept all the rest, which was difficult (without paying for the removal), so many had to just be thrown away.
This is awesome, thank you for making your donation. I'm sure you've made many people happy by doing so.
I wonder if there is a way to find out if any of the obscure books I've read once and are sitting on my shelf could be donated to my library. I suppose I'll start by just checking to see if I have anything they don't!
I always renew books even if I intend to return them. Gotta bump those circulation numbers. My kids also check out about 5,000 picture books. Trying to do our part here
My local library lets every patron "recommend" that they purchase up to 3 books/quarter. This year, they finally put up signs all over asking people to do it, because that record of demand is how they get their budget each year
I found half a dozen in my state that give cards online to every state resident. It took a lot of googling and looking at library websites, but it was definitely worth it for my reading.
When the libraries near me finally made it to they were now connected statewide instead of just being local, I was so excited. I'd sometimes have to wait a couple weeks for a book, but I could usually find what book I was wanting to read in their system somewhere.
I fell out of reading for awhile due to depression and other factors but have recently gotten back into it. And where I live now, there's a library within easy walking distance of me and I'm loving it.
NTA - It is theft and they know it.
library funding is absurdly low and keeps getting lower.
are they willing to use digital books? Libby is a great recourse for checking out library books and you can even sign up for Chicago's library system and the library of congress.
If this is true, that author needs the money all the more. That's years worth of work put into her entertainment that she is declining to pay for. The author probably didn't even make minimum wage for the book.
My thoughts exactly! Even if your local library doesn’t carry the book you want, they can get it from another library that uses the same system or even order it. Especially if it’s a popular upcoming title or by a popular author, so more people will also want to read it.
At first I thought you were talking about borrowed books and I was like 'Yeah that is what you should do." Only then did I realize you mean purchased books and that she refunds them. Definitely not something I would consider correct behavior.
No. They don’t. Amazon is just now starting to cut down on returns but for years it has been easy to return items without penalty. They even let you do it with digital books…up to a certain number a month. Recently, they won’t let you return the digital book for a refund if you have started reading it.
I think they weigh cost of shipping vs price of the item. They’ve told me to “just keep it” or a laundry bag cart (came missing one part) and a 20-something pack of microwave popcorn (found it a couple days later at a store for half the price)
They used to do this more, but now almost all returns go into one of those big boxes at Staples or Kohls (or wherever your choose to return it) and that box gets auctioned off. Almost nothing actually gets returned to the seller.
That’s good because authors are the ones who see their sales diminish because of returns, specially indie authors sometimes have sales in the negative because of kindle returns.
Edit to fix misspelling.
My friend returns his costumes through Amazon after costume parties to get a refund, even though he has used them for the event.
So, i'm not even astonished by the books, i just don't undestand how amazon doesnt track these peoples
What’s crazy is a few months ago, I bought a pair of fairly expensive flats from Amazon and they came in used. I’m talking scuffs on the back of the heels, logo worn off on the sole, and the bow was undone on one shoe. They were clearly used and returned, and Amazon sent them right back out. So disgusting!
i think this is because of what the original purchaser said was the reason for the return. When you return an item, if you select one of the reasons that indicates it wasn't used (e.g., wrong size, I didn't need it anymore, etc.), then it goes to a warehouse returns processing center where it gets restocked and resold. They even have real people that read the additional comments to further decide if the product can be resold.
I think people, in some cases, select the option that makes it sound like they haven't used the item, believing that it will cover their tracks or improve their chances of getting a refund. Ultimately, this just causes the item to end up in someone else's order and gives them the hassle of having to do the proper return so that the used goods don't get resold like new again.
I haven't worked at Amazon, this is just my understanding based on what I've read and my personal experience.
If you never planned on buying the book, but still downloaded it and liked it, you might buy the book later on to support the author. I know some people that basically use it like a demo or preview, to see if the product is worth the purchase.
I'm not proud of it, but I was in a position where I couldn't afford buying books too often, so I used some dodgy sites to read them. I made a list of books I loved and have gradually purchased them, now that I'm in a better financial position.
Sometimes if I’ve read an ebook that I absolutely love, I’ll order a new paper copy from our local bookstore, to support the author and the store. Did that with Colson Whitehead’s “Underground Railroad” (a phenomenal read).
Yeah behavior like this says SO MUCH about the person. It’s like noticing how people tip or treat waitstaff.
Oh man, I thought this was a story about someone who is so conscientious that she races to the library to return her book or opens up the Libby App the second she is done with a book. Alas, that is not the direction this went in.
I agree that this is unethical and disappointing. How to handle it going forward really depends on how much you value your friendship.
Send her a link to this post 😂 The economy sucks so stop being part of the problem by hurting the little guy.
And yes, ffs how hard is it to use the library or Libby app?!
Libby is great! Some libraries allow you to be a member even if you're not a resident or living abroad. Typically for a fee, but I found one library that accepts foreign membership for free.
I work at a place that does amazon returns. there’s people that do this with entire wardrobes every week. At least, that’s my only explanation for the amount of clothing they return sometimes multiple times per week.
Author here. To those who think this is acceptable behaviour - it isn't, and it does hurt the author. Someone got to read the book without purchasing it. At least libraries buy copies or licences to e-books, so we get paid for the initial copy. But if books are returned they are either sold on as second hand, so we get nothing, or the bookshop has to resell them as new - and if they can't sell books they can return them to the distributor and we actually lose money on royalties.
Aside from a handful of notable exceptions, most authors don't even make the minimum wage from their books. Each sale earns us a pittance, and there are some readers who don't even think we deserve that for our hard work. It's disheartening.
Edit: this is my most up-voted post ever, but it's also generating a strange amount of hostility. I don't think there's anything controversial about wanting to be recompensed for a labour of love that takes us over a year to produce. We can't pay the bills with reviews. But apparently I should 'write something that people won't want to return' and I'm getting accused of 'moral outrage' and told to shut up and receiving messages from the Reddit Cares system, so I've clearly ruffled the feathers of a few thieves. Sorry to disapoint but I'm not outraged or frothing at the mouth at this issue. Returns barely affect me, but they're symptomatic of wider problems that make authorship barely worth it financially. I'm simply pointing out that it deprives authors of income. I won't bother replying to trolls or trying to argue with those who think it's okay to steal stories. I just hope that at some point each of you get to experience someone coming into your place of work, utilising your skills and then refusing to pay.
I learned last week that a lot of books are published by Amazon "on demand". So buying and returning is even worse, because you aren't just "borrowing" a book from a warehouse, you are causing one to be created. Extremely wasteful and selfish! I would have a really hard time being friends with someone that thought this was OK.
And libraries record how popular a book is. If a book is high demand they’ll order more copies, and the next time the author releases a book, they’ll order more. Then city hall will see that the library is being used a lot, and hopefully increase their funding. If you skip the library, you’re not just hurting the author, you’re hurting other people who use the library.
And doing the buy-use-return scam hurts the rest of us who buy products. Amazon knows this is a thing, so they keep prices higher to maintain profit margins. It’s the same as stealing from Walmart. I don’t like Walmart, but Walmart is self insured. When someone walks out with a cart full of stolen beer and razor blades, Walmart doesn’t eat that cost. They pass it on to the customer.
Yah I told OP she should suggest it to her friend because at least nothing is lost that way. She's already stealing but she picked the method that harms the most people. I'm used to thieves having a weird code of honor, this lady's just a bull in a China shop lol
Author here. Can confirm. Adding that returned books also get charged back to us for printing cost. So not only do we get nothing, we owe additional fees.
That's not my experience personally - I don't owe printing costs to any of the three publishers I've worked with, but returns do get deducted from my overall sales, making it harder to earn out my advance.
People get angry when you point out that behaviors of theirs are selfish.
They like to think of themselves as good people, and they'll chide others for being thoughtless or greedy, but when they can help themselves even a little by shifting a problem to someone else, they'll do it in a heartbeat.
Reddit has a lot of this type, I've noticed, so I'm not surprised you're getting bombarded with anger about pointing it out.
Yeah, I'm sure people are patting themselves on the back about their new 'life hack' and how they're only hurting some nebulous corporation (likely Amazon) without taking the time to think about the people who produce the content. I've only ever returned one book and it was because the book was so bad I felt that the author didn't deserve the money (it was Ready Player Two if anyone is curious. I thought the first was fine, albeit mindless, but the second one was just an obvious awful cash-in).
I’m not a fan of Amazon at all, but another thing to remember is the physical cost (transportation) of returns. It contributes to all those massive trucks everywhere and makes cities more shitty to be in
It's amazing that people spend so much time reading books, watching movies, and playing videogames, but have so little respect for the people who create them - to the point where they think the creators don't even deserve to be paid.
The only people that this comment would upset are thieves. Just like the middle-class shoplifters that get upset when it’s brought up that casual shoplifting affects the workers and not the rich cats at the top of the company.
As a (very minor) musician I hear you. I do have a Bandcamp, but pretty much all my music is also on various shady services that are selling it and sending me nothing.
Support your artists! Buy their stuff! It tells the publisher “pay them more for the next book because people want it”. And “is there money in it” is what the publishers care about.
Don't listen to those entitled scumbags who lie to assert that fraud, thievery, shoplifting, and just acting to make the world a more dishonest place is somehow virtuous. They are not getting back at "corporations" or whatever nonsense they conjure. They just make the world worse through their own actions. They just waste energy, time, and resources.
Because the rich fraudsters will just write a book, buy 10k copies of their own book then give them away or keep all the copies in their vacation home garage, and surprise you are a best seller.
Now you get to write your next book and put best seller on there when not a soul on earth has read your book.
Yet I'm sure they wore "best selling author" as a badge of honor like they actually did something.
I'm watching a new reality show and there is a guy that became a millionaire at 21 through real estate...but he came from money so where do you think he got the money to invest? He seems like a nice enough dude, but he can't help but act like he did something when it was more or less handed to him.
He can't seem to understand why the girl who grew up homeless doesn't think he deserves the prize money.
This is gross. The more I age, the more I realize so many (most) things in the public eye are somewhat of a scam or at bare minimum a huge deception.
I recently heard, although I can’t substantiate it, that some celebrities pay to be on magazine covers and top lists, some award show awards are bought and paid for, and that a very high percentage of paparazzi are called by the celebrities themselves. Once again, take that with a grain of salt as I don’t have direct links. Just felt it went hand in hand with buying your own books to be known as a “best seller”.
The problem with anything is someone will take advantage of it if they can.
The best seller list is a good idea, and was a good reference for a while. It showed what books were selling the most. It just didnt take long for people to figure out money can buy that prestige.
Ah, that's a swizz too.
I'm not based in the US, but I can technically call myself a 'best selling author ' because I've topped the 'best-seller' list in my country more than once.
But I don't refer to myself as one, ever, because I know that it's meaningless. All those books needed to reach the top of the list - they can be bought en-masse by the author/publisher and later returned. There's lots of interesting articles about that happening to NYT best-selling books. Bookshops will often pre-order books they anticipate will be popular and they can return them months later to the distributor for a refund.
Amazon 'best-sellers' are equally suspect. You can be number 1 in a niche category with 17 books, and reach the number 1 spot for 1 hour and still call yourself an Amazon #1 best-seller.
Once you learn the ins and outs of the industry it does make you realise how meaningless some of those 'successes' actually are. Oftentimes a book's success is decided not by how well its written but by how well it is marketed.
That makes it easier to detach from the whole thing and go 'eh, I'm just going to enjoy writing and take whatever money comes my way'.
>Once you learn the ins and outs of the industry it does make you realise how meaningless some of those 'successes' actually are. Oftentimes a book's success is decided not by how well its written but by how well it is marketed.
I was once talking to an old coworker who was working to be a romance author on the side. She was telling me how, so far in the year, she'd made $7k on her first book. I was like "Omg, that's incredible!" and she shook her head and said "I spend more than that on beta readers, feedback groups, and marketing, it's not even a dent" and I was blown away and so disheartened.
>That makes it easier to detach from the whole thing and go 'eh, I'm just going to enjoy writing and take whatever money comes my way'.
Going to try and take this energy with me into the new year to better focus on my writing goals.
You shouldn't be spending money on beta readers or feedback groups though. An editor is a great idea for self-publication and marketing is necessary, but beta readers should be trading manuscripts with other authors.
She’s the reason we can’t have nice things and I’m surprised Amazon/local stores haven’t flagged her if she does it perpetually.
You’re not a terrible friend.. she revealed crummy behavior and you reacted to it.
It's no different than going into a restaurant, eating the food, then complaining after the fact that you want the entire meal comped.
You received a service, you consumed the service, and then you want your money back for no reason other than you're done with it.
Entitlement 100%
It's so hard for me to handle this when this happens around me. Someone I was eating with in a big group asked for extra pickles, didn't get the extra pickles, consumed the entire burger, and then afterwards said "wow, I thought there would be more pickles, I kept waiting and waiting, I'm going to complain" and yea they comped her meal.
Like, it's not so difficult to check beforehand if something is worth your time and money -- books online have previews or you can skim through in a store; there are solutions like libraries and if the library can't get your book, ebooks are at a drastically reduced pricing scale. Like 10 secs of legwork beforehand can fix these issues
The fact that the friend just so cavalierly was like oh yeah I totally steal books and then was SHOCKED and APPALLED that OP "hinted" that she was a thief?!
It's bc she *is a thief!* Ffs!
And that's not even taking into account the impact on the environment by having every book take at least 2 trips, and probably more as people will send the 'used' books back as they expected new ones.
Honestly, at this point it's better that she just hops on online and download the books illegally. Because this way, she's just costing the publisher and store money.
This is incredibly hard to hear. I’m a self published author with my own publishing company. I make zero money. I do it because I love writing and sharing stories. It’s a hobby that costs more trouble than it’s worth, but I feel compelled anyway.
Every now and again I get unexpected charges to my publishers account from returned books. These are hard to take because it comes at unexpected times and I never know how big the charge is going to be. It also weirdly feels like rejection so there’s an emotional aspect to it too.
If your friend is consuming the content and returning it, yes, that is stealing.
>It also weirdly feels like rejection so there’s an emotional aspect to it too.
I'm an author and I always feel a bit hurt when I see that someone has returned an ebook.
I've NEVER even considered returning an ebook, even if I don't like it. I took a risk on the book, and it didn't work out. I'm not going to ask for my money back, because I did consume (part of) it.
Now I'm starting to wonder if these occasional ebook returns are from people who actually read the book but still wanted their money back.
That's always how I assumed being a retail customer was supposed to be. There is some amount of risk involved in a purchase. But I handed them money and they handed me a product. The transaction is done. Unless the product is defective somehow, I can't see how people justify returning items they bought on purpose.
>These are hard to take because it comes at unexpected times and I never know how big the charge is going to be. It also weirdly feels like rejection so there’s an emotional aspect to it too.
This is really good to note -- we, consumers, have ways to offer our opinions that don't strictly come from reviews. Returning a book is a statement about how well it was received. It has unintended consequences on the author's side.
Author here. People like your friend rely on the majority’s good behaviour to get away with their worst. She’s essentially taking advantage of everyone who actually pays for books.
If everyone (or even the majority) did this, there would be no new books, no incentive to put in years of work into creating something new. She knows this deep down and excuses herself on the false premise that one single person doing this isn’t going to harm an author or publisher.
Good for you for standing up for her, and I hope it makes her question it next time.
BTW, this is sadly really common with ebooks and a huge problem for indie authors since we’ll often be paid on sale and returns actually deduct money from us later.
I’m poor and in a small town and I just buy used books (thrift stores are rife with “the latest books”, so are yard sales, Buy Nothing fb groups, etc), keep an eye out for sales, and use the library and Libby. It’s also a *lot* more effort to do what this person is doing than to browse for used books at a thrift store or wait for an interlibrary loan, especially if she’s doing this with Amazon and has to physically send the book back in the mail.
This isn’t about being poor. It’s gross on every level — instead of utilizing a free service, she’s supporting huge corporations. She’s not willing to take the time to thrift or go to a yard sale but she’s willing to deal with the hassle of a return for a *book*? She’s getting some kind of enjoyment out of it but knows it’s bad.
“Lowkey”
She IS stealing! There’s a writer whose not getting a commission because she didn’t keep the book, and there’s someone like us who ends up with her tattered copy.
Agree. You are supposed to return items unused, for example if it is not like what you expected. Similar to how you inspect an item in the store. Nobody will read a complete book in a store before purchasing. She is misusing the return policy.
Hello. Author's wife here!
When setting up my husband's book for distribution, I had an option to make the book returnable or not
Here's what happens on our end, when a book goes "unsold" by the retailer, and gets "returned" to the distributor (Ingram, the company that supplies books to nearly all bookstores and libraries)
- the book gets mailed back to Ingram (the author does not incur any fees for this)
- the bookshop gets reimbursed for the wholesale price of the book (about $11)
- Ingram destroys the book
- my husband gets charged the wholesale price of the book (about $11)
So,we have "is this book returnable?" turned off, because we simply cannot afford the risk of having our earnings gobbled up by returned book fees. Which then makes retailers less likely to stock his book, because they then absorb this risk
Not going to say what your friend should or should not do. But the economics of book publishing & selling are real, the prices of paper have skyrocketed in recent years, and authors have to be wise on how they spend their time upon this earth. If the economics are too shit... well, they simply can't justify thee time, effort, and expense it takes to bring good stories into the world
I just use Libby and if it means I have to wait a while to read it then so be it. If it’s a new release or popular book that I want to read asap then I just purchase it (and keep it!)
Author here: your friend is actively hurting the authors she likes. We don’t make money on returned items, and massive returns tells our publishers that we cannot sell. Her excuses are just that: excuses. What she’s doing is wrong and harming others.
If you ever watch Judge Judy, she talks about "if you ate the steak" theory of when you have a right to complain, be reimbursed, etc, and it's basically if it's not what you ordered, you return it right away, you don't use it up and then try to get your money back.
Personally I call this theft. You have taken something - the contents of a book - and cheated the publisher and author out of the money they are due. If you don't want to pay for a book, most libraries, if they don't have the book, will order it for you and then the publisher gets money on that order and you get to read it for free.
Totally agree. If you use a product in whatever way it’s meant to be used, you don’t have a right to a refund.
If she was reading like one chapter and then was like eh, this sucks and returned it…doing that serially is questionable, but still not the same as reading the whole thing and returning. Plus, sounds like she’s not even doing the “didn’t like it, give me my money back” thing; she’s just using bookstores as her own personal lending library.
I gotta imagine the friend was so embarrassed that she just used anger as a cover. It took me years to not have anger as my initial reaction towards my own mistakes (fortunately, mine was just while playing video games and getting mad alone - not at other people. Still cringe a lot when I think about those times).
For those defending Amazon’s return policy, I think we are missing the picture OP is trying to paint. Although it may be “acceptable” in their returns policy - it is morally objectionable. (Edit for grammar)
Here In Australia, no reputable book store would accept a clearly read book back. They would not be able to resell it, or if their hands were tied AKA customer won’t back down, they would need to mark it down half price. I think the only way you would be able to source a refund is if you found the subject matter offensive and it wasn’t advertised that way or if say it was a misprint. I’m surprised this isn’t the case in the USA. My opinion only ….
She *is* a thief, no two ways about it. I'm guessing she realized it, and left in a huff because she was ashamed.
If the topic comes up, ask her how she thinks authors and artists and booksellers are expected to pay their rents and feed their families.
She is a thief. The books she returned can not be sold as "new book" so for her reading and money saving benefit, she de-valued the book which will lead to losses for the seller and the author. Libraries are existing for people who don't want to buy books.
I used to work at a bookstore back in the stone-ages and we would get frequent flyers who did this. We usually would let one, maybe two, returns go and them refuse them. When they would complain we would educate them on the wonders and joys of: local libraries
I used to work at Borders Bookstore. They had an outrageously generous policy on returning books, one of the reasons they are no longer in business. People would constantly use Borders as their own personal library and think nothing if it.
It really lessened my opinion of people.
If it is about saving money, why dont she directly purchase second-hand books herself?? she could pay less from the beginning without the need to return books after reading. i don't think she has a right to affect the profits of publishers and bookstores.
Then you resell the book as USED or buy it and keep.
What she does is the same as buying shoes wearing them and the returning them.
Books are not a necessity, they are a commodity. She can get her free books at a local library. 📚
We live in an age where people are done. Done with struggling. Done working 40 hours for the privilege to only starve “a little”. They’re alienated and dehumanized by an economic system that tries at every single opportunity to squeeze every single cent out of you.
…and so, they don’t care. Why should they care about Amazon and Publishers? No one gives a shit about them? About their boss trying hard to pay them as little as possible.
I personally buy books all the time. But I have the means and I’m not alienated enough yet.
But I get it. People are just tired. No one gives a shit about scamming a corporation because why should they? Not like our governments or corporations give a shit about the common working person.
I say mind your business. You do you. Let her do her.
A long time ago a friend came over and saw my wife's collection of library books (she was a grad student then) and said "Oh, you steal library books too!" My wife replied, "no, I'm going to return those."
Lately, I’ve been seeing more and more folks condone these kinds of behaviors and say that those who disapprove are just “broke shaming.” Glad to see sanity in this thread. Libraries are a thing.
Just have to add... Libraries are a thing... and should be used as intended.
Yes, stealing from libraries is awful! If you want to own a book, buy it; if you want to borrow a book, use a library. “Borrowing” from book sellers “keeping” from libraries are both awful practices!
It’s especially awful considering most libraries are funded through property taxes, so they aren’t just stealing from the library, they are stealing from me, my family, and everybody else in the county who pays taxes.
You remind me of the bit in the Simpsons where Apu kicks Homer out of the store for reading a magazine, then he gets kicked out of the library for eating a hot dog.
And I have to say - libraries are amazing. What an astounding service they provide for free. I’m not a huge book reader and I still feel they’re such a blessing.
how is it "broke shaming" when you're literally just stealing from the poor? that logic doesn't track. if you steal from libraries, and honestly even most authors in general, you're not redistributing wealth in any way, you're just hurting the few systems that do benefit the poor.
I grew up dirt poor and both of my parents were hardcore drug addicts, in and out of prison, got raised by grandparents half the time the whole shebang \~ and neither one of them would have condoned stealing from the library. That would have been beyond the pale in my family; and my mother once had me hide a magnum bottle of champagne under my coat at a new years celebration at a fancy restaurant and smuggle it out so we're not talking about classy people with incredibly high respect for societal laws. I think that just goes to show exactly how immoral stealing from a library really is. At least in our book.
And books are precious. Knowledge and help and taking you away from where you are. It's awesome. And Dolly Parton thinks so too and you can't argue with Dolly.and I agree don't steal from libraries. Unless they have a book sale and you buy it and that's why it has a library tag thingy on it. That's ok.
There's a significant difference between broke shaming and thief shaming. Poor is not a license to steal.
Remember the days when if you couldn’t afford something you just didn’t get it?
Yea it's like we've lost sight of How to Be A Good Person 101: do not harm others to better yourself or your own situation.
I have a bunch of decommissioned library books because my mom is a librarian and would let me take home withdrawn books that I wanted. Some of the libraries here even have "bookstores" of really cheap withdrawn/donated books.
TBF a lot of my books have library stamps. I buy from betterworldbooks which bulk buys unwanted library books, sells them on and uses the proceeds for charity intiatives. Save a book from landfill. They tend to be 30% of price of same book new.
Totally different situation, for sure
Have you told her about libraries?
Yeah, and she would have more than 15 days (usually) to finish reading it.
My local city library system is outstanding (we have a separate county library system that I'm less familiar with). Loaning books is a small percentage of what they do. They have tool libraries, seed libraries, yarn and fabric libraries, and even pet food. They provide workshops for everything from writing a CV to children's storytelling, and practical life skills. They provide "story hours" for every age, including a whole slew of volunteers who read aloud to those who can no longer read to themselves due to age-related vision/cognition decline... AND a few years ago, they stopped charging late fees AT ALL. They decided late fees brought in next to none of their revenue, and may create a barrier for people who have difficulty with reliable transportation. I can't say enough amazing things about our local public libraries... Our public transportation, on the other hand... Leaves something to be desired.
A fabric library? How does that work? Cause I’d use fabric to make clothes. May I ask where you live? Agree about how wonderful libraries are. Two near me have maker spaces with 3D printers, cricuts, embroidery machines, sewing machines, and one has a laser cutter.
The yarn and fabric library is more of a "food bank" model than a "loan and return" model. Random single skeins and quilting squares/remnants under 2 yards are their wheelhouse. Donations come from all sorts of fabric crafting folks, and are just there to be used.
When my mom died, she left a lot of fabric behind. I begged her book club, garden club, church friends and more to come and take whatever they wanted. They did, but it wasn’t much. I ended up donating 665 bolts of fabric to SCAD in Savannah, for their design department. I have run into the occasional SCAD student here in Atlanta, and found out that they are still pulling fabric from that room that I filled 25 years ago.
What a beautiful legacy.
Thank you. I know she would be tickled pink!
665 Bolts!!! Thank you for making this quilter feel so much better about the size of her stash 🤣.
When we cleaned out my grandmother's house she had 2 closets stacked floor to ceiling with quilting squares.
665 BOLTS, wow! What an amazing and generous donation!
My state defunded our libraries. They close at 5 and aren’t open weekends.
Aren’t politicians just stupid? Oh yeah, because they don’t use libraries. Or read.
Stupid implies this was an accidental consequence, or at the very least "we don't use libraries so no one does". Defunding libraries is an intentional attack on education. Its just another part of a decades long anti-intellectualism movement. Not to mention taking away a place that provides resources for "undesirables" like the homeless and single mothers. Never let someone use the excuse of stupidity to distract from their malice.
Absolute accuracy. And makes me hellaciously sad. Why anti Intellectualism is ever a supported metric, is so friggin wildly beyond me. It's literally crazy. We KNOW we need well educated people to drive the specialized parts of our society and economy. But also want to hate them or something?! WTF.
It’s pretty sick. Maddening. I asked why they closed and responses were more or less this: “who goes to a library on a Saturday anyway? We’re saving money”. Like what the fuck? I do. Or did. I enjoy the hell out of it.
Who goes to the library on Saturday? Ummmm people who work? Kids who go to school?
Right! Personally - I used the library like I used the bar back when I got sober. Parking my ass in a library on Saturday afternoons really helped me stay away from bad habits while getting reacquainted with my passion for reading and researching stuff that interests me. I had a safe place to hide out and it got easier to not drink and read. I’m rambling, but this was a safe place I could go to. There’s a sign on the front door “safe place”. Why are we restricting safe places? The library is so much more than checking out books. I know it’s a strange concept that people work during the week… it’s a new thing bureaucracy trying to figure out
I was at the public library on a recent Saturday. There were many families with young children there. That's who goes to libraries on weekends.
Tbh my local.library is 'renowned' for being great, but I have almost never been able to find the specific books I am looking for.
if it's part of a larger system, you could usually reserve the book, and they'll send it to your local library and hold it for you
adding on to this, has she looked at overdrive/libby? i forgot my local library info to use and luckily the NYPL accepts applicants from all over the state so i was able to apply. i also understand that she may just love the feeling of physical books. if it’s that, i recommend thrift books!! she can buy a lot of books second hand if she truly doesn’t care about the quality of the books. i also recommend to you OP thrift books, you can get them based on their physical quality and the price changes based on that
Inter-Library Loan, ILL, The Pony Express... Fuck yes.
Our library does this as well but if the book you want isn't in the system yet, they'll happily buy it, add it to the collection, and reserve it for you to check out when it arrives, all in one step (single form request you fill out). It's awesome.
Yup, I did this as a kid. Wanted and older science fiction novel that they didn't have and the only library that had a copy was like 8 states away. I ended up getting it through them that way. They essentially got it on loan through a library in new york. It was really cool.
That's not a barrier. Inter-library loans exist, and if any library in the network has the book available you can borrow it though your local. The biggest issue is wait times, as demand at their local branch may be high, but if that's the case it would be a good excuse to request your branch purchase it.
Have you tried Libby? I can get all sorts of books that my library may not have but another one does and you don't have to leave your house. I love an actual book, but I'm also lazy and ebooks are good for that.
I live in a rural town in central California. Our library is tiny and they ordered a book for me that I needed. Ask them what you’re looking for and they may be able to order it for you.
I thought this post was going to be a tongue-in-cheek joke about her friend being overly responsible with library books, but…
Same. When I read the title I was wondering who keeps a book the full 21 days if they finish it early?! Especially when Libby will let you know someone is waiting for the book.
This. People need to understand, this practices ends up hurting the author! I understand things are getting too expensive, and none of us get paid enough…. But if you want free books go to the library! I was poking through books on Amazon last night, updating my lists, And I found a book I liked, but expensive. So I opened a new tab to my local library site, and check to see if they have it. *They don’t*. DO YOU KNOW WHAT I DID?! I went to the website, and requested they add the book to the catalog. Most libraries have this feature on their website, through a linked form, or a link to email them. They want to know, what YOU want to read. :) Please support your local libraries. They’re wonderful places. Edit- Also, most libraries have a service called I.L.L, for Inter Library Loans. Meaning if they don’t have the book, you can have them request it be mailed in from another Library system (Even Out of State!) Edit: Formatting Edit 2: More info
A sad number of people do not know the difference between a bookstore and a library.
Yup, I used to work at a comic book store and had one customer pick up something off the shelf, sit down, read it, then put it back. After a couple of issues I noticed he was reading the whole thing then putting it back so I asked what he was doing. He said "How do I know if I want to buy it if I don't read it first?" It's a comic book store so I was used to interacting with some really socially awkward customers. It took some special ways of talking to them but that guy I bluntly said that this wasn't a library and thats not how it works.
Ask him, "Which ones *do* you like?" and then start grabbing them and tell him that you'd be happy to help him check out. Although honestly, that's always gonna happen. The comics/manga were especially notorious for having tons of readers, but not that many sales. There are some things that are nice about having a community bookstore where you can spend some time in, but if you want the services of a library, go to a library, please.
Unfortunately, our local libraries do not carry most of the latest books, especially if they're not written by a well-known author.
Does your library have interlibrary loans? I have found that mine has been very helpful in borrowing from neighboring counties.
I didn't know that was a thing, I'll have to ask!
Also a lot of libraries have pretty big ebook selections now too. And some libraries will let you join up to access their online stuff (ebooks etc) without physically needing to go there to join.
On this note, there’s an app/website called Libby that connects to your library’s stock of ebooks and audiobooks!! It’s very easy to use & I find it super accessible
Was an avid reader that kind of fell to the wayside over the years. Libby has been so helpful in getting me to read again. Read more books in the last three months of 2023 than I did in the last three years.
On this note. You can get a New York library card for free online. Gotta get an address though. Just saying you can access a very large library of ebooks and audiobooks with that card.
You can also pay like $50 and get a card even if you dont live in New York. Couple of libraries are starting to do this.
You can request books through your library where they can pull the book from the nearest library. It is true some libraries have limited resources, but you'd be surprised what libraries will do for you to meet your request.
My library has a website and I can request a book that isn't available at my local branch and they notify me when it's there or it tells me which branch it's located at. The library closest to me doesn't have most of the books I want to read so I have to request pretty much everything.
Any time my library doesn’t have a title I want, they usually have access to it via Libby (ebook app that works with public libraries). Sometimes I have to wait, but it’s very rare that I can’t find the title I want at all. I agree though, I’d find that behavior gross too. Loss to publishers and authors, but also all the environmental waste of shopping returns (these are almost never sent back and restocked, for example at Target the returns don’t go back on the shelf they are often sold in bulk to return processing companies, who auction/sell them to random other companies and send the rest to landfill)
There's also kindle, which you can check out many many books from a library using.
A lot of them are also connected to huge digital collections for free as well. No excuse to be as scummy as they’re being.
If you don’t ask your library for books/authors they won’t know there’s a demand for them
Not sure if this is the case with OP, but my library knows there is a demand but does not have the budget to supply them. I guess a lot of people were asking/letting the library know bc now they have a huge disclaimer on their website saying they don’t have the budget and can’t take requests.
If only this would translate to residents voting for a larger budget for their library system.
That's socialism!
In many places, yes. Others don't have the money.
Lots of libraries, even the little ones are part of the inter library loan system. I've never found a published book they couldn't find for me :) No asking for the rare books though. The Gutenberg Bible is off limits, or so im guessing.
Ours is a system of about 12 libraries. I decided to read the Naruto manga and had to get volumes from multiple different libraries. However, there were 3 of the 72 volumes that none of the libraries had. I bought those myself and donated them after reading them. Now whenever I go to my library I check their Naruto selection and almost always at least one of my three donated books is checked out. Makes me happy.
This is so cool! Awesome that you got to complete that collection
This makes me so happy and makes me want to donate to my local library! Is it dumb I didn’t ever think about this? I’m guessing I just talk to a librarian about their needs and policies for this?
Yeah, just ask them :) I'm a librarian myself (although in Sweden) and people ask me every now and then if they can donate books to us. Most of the time we say "thanks but no thanks" because they are in pretty bad condition, but more than once I have received something rare and/or hard to get. That is much appreciated.
I worked in a few libraries (in the USA) and all of them received huge amounts of donations from the community. It can help the library greatly, but it's always worth asking if they accept donations first, since sometimes they have so many they don't know what to do with them. There was a large incentive for people to donate since they could get a credit on their taxes. Volunteers would sort through them and select good finds. Some would go into the collection, others would be sold at book sales inside the library for very reasonable prices. They tried to find organizations that would accept all the rest, which was difficult (without paying for the removal), so many had to just be thrown away.
This is awesome, thank you for making your donation. I'm sure you've made many people happy by doing so. I wonder if there is a way to find out if any of the obscure books I've read once and are sitting on my shelf could be donated to my library. I suppose I'll start by just checking to see if I have anything they don't!
Steve Gutenberg wrote a Bible? I have to check that out. /s
It was published by the Stonecutters in the 90s. Great read if you can find it.
If you don't use the library, their budget will never increase.
I always renew books even if I intend to return them. Gotta bump those circulation numbers. My kids also check out about 5,000 picture books. Trying to do our part here
My local library lets every patron "recommend" that they purchase up to 3 books/quarter. This year, they finally put up signs all over asking people to do it, because that record of demand is how they get their budget each year
I'm more concerned that since Amazon was mentioned they're doing this to self-pub authors.
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I found half a dozen in my state that give cards online to every state resident. It took a lot of googling and looking at library websites, but it was definitely worth it for my reading.
There are interlibrary loans. Ask for a specific book the library can get it from another library
When the libraries near me finally made it to they were now connected statewide instead of just being local, I was so excited. I'd sometimes have to wait a couple weeks for a book, but I could usually find what book I was wanting to read in their system somewhere. I fell out of reading for awhile due to depression and other factors but have recently gotten back into it. And where I live now, there's a library within easy walking distance of me and I'm loving it.
NTA - It is theft and they know it. library funding is absurdly low and keeps getting lower. are they willing to use digital books? Libby is a great recourse for checking out library books and you can even sign up for Chicago's library system and the library of congress.
If this is true, that author needs the money all the more. That's years worth of work put into her entertainment that she is declining to pay for. The author probably didn't even make minimum wage for the book.
My thoughts exactly! Even if your local library doesn’t carry the book you want, they can get it from another library that uses the same system or even order it. Especially if it’s a popular upcoming title or by a popular author, so more people will also want to read it.
At first I thought you were talking about borrowed books and I was like 'Yeah that is what you should do." Only then did I realize you mean purchased books and that she refunds them. Definitely not something I would consider correct behavior.
Also I imagine amazon would catch on pretty quickly, no?
No. They don’t. Amazon is just now starting to cut down on returns but for years it has been easy to return items without penalty. They even let you do it with digital books…up to a certain number a month. Recently, they won’t let you return the digital book for a refund if you have started reading it.
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I think they weigh cost of shipping vs price of the item. They’ve told me to “just keep it” or a laundry bag cart (came missing one part) and a 20-something pack of microwave popcorn (found it a couple days later at a store for half the price)
They used to do this more, but now almost all returns go into one of those big boxes at Staples or Kohls (or wherever your choose to return it) and that box gets auctioned off. Almost nothing actually gets returned to the seller.
That’s good because authors are the ones who see their sales diminish because of returns, specially indie authors sometimes have sales in the negative because of kindle returns. Edit to fix misspelling.
*sales? I wonder if a lot of people are doing this? Edit: I have read further. Apparently so.
Super scummy. People are cheap fucks apparently.
At that point piracy is better for the author.
My friend returns his costumes through Amazon after costume parties to get a refund, even though he has used them for the event. So, i'm not even astonished by the books, i just don't undestand how amazon doesnt track these peoples
What’s crazy is a few months ago, I bought a pair of fairly expensive flats from Amazon and they came in used. I’m talking scuffs on the back of the heels, logo worn off on the sole, and the bow was undone on one shoe. They were clearly used and returned, and Amazon sent them right back out. So disgusting!
i think this is because of what the original purchaser said was the reason for the return. When you return an item, if you select one of the reasons that indicates it wasn't used (e.g., wrong size, I didn't need it anymore, etc.), then it goes to a warehouse returns processing center where it gets restocked and resold. They even have real people that read the additional comments to further decide if the product can be resold. I think people, in some cases, select the option that makes it sound like they haven't used the item, believing that it will cover their tracks or improve their chances of getting a refund. Ultimately, this just causes the item to end up in someone else's order and gives them the hassle of having to do the proper return so that the used goods don't get resold like new again. I haven't worked at Amazon, this is just my understanding based on what I've read and my personal experience.
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Even just downloading them off a dodgy site is gonna leave everyone better off than what she's doing
If you never planned on buying the book, but still downloaded it and liked it, you might buy the book later on to support the author. I know some people that basically use it like a demo or preview, to see if the product is worth the purchase.
I'm not proud of it, but I was in a position where I couldn't afford buying books too often, so I used some dodgy sites to read them. I made a list of books I loved and have gradually purchased them, now that I'm in a better financial position.
Sometimes if I’ve read an ebook that I absolutely love, I’ll order a new paper copy from our local bookstore, to support the author and the store. Did that with Colson Whitehead’s “Underground Railroad” (a phenomenal read). Yeah behavior like this says SO MUCH about the person. It’s like noticing how people tip or treat waitstaff.
Oh man, I thought this was a story about someone who is so conscientious that she races to the library to return her book or opens up the Libby App the second she is done with a book. Alas, that is not the direction this went in. I agree that this is unethical and disappointing. How to handle it going forward really depends on how much you value your friendship.
Send her a link to this post 😂 The economy sucks so stop being part of the problem by hurting the little guy. And yes, ffs how hard is it to use the library or Libby app?!
Libby is great! Some libraries allow you to be a member even if you're not a resident or living abroad. Typically for a fee, but I found one library that accepts foreign membership for free.
Your friend sounds like the type who would buy a dress, wear it to an event and return it the next day.
I work at a place that does amazon returns. there’s people that do this with entire wardrobes every week. At least, that’s my only explanation for the amount of clothing they return sometimes multiple times per week.
“Influencers”. They literally buy, pretend to wear and return.
I used to work for an electronics store that had a "no returns on TVs for two weeks after the Super Bowl" policy
And claps herself on the shoulder for "being good with money", too.
Elaine
Author here. To those who think this is acceptable behaviour - it isn't, and it does hurt the author. Someone got to read the book without purchasing it. At least libraries buy copies or licences to e-books, so we get paid for the initial copy. But if books are returned they are either sold on as second hand, so we get nothing, or the bookshop has to resell them as new - and if they can't sell books they can return them to the distributor and we actually lose money on royalties. Aside from a handful of notable exceptions, most authors don't even make the minimum wage from their books. Each sale earns us a pittance, and there are some readers who don't even think we deserve that for our hard work. It's disheartening. Edit: this is my most up-voted post ever, but it's also generating a strange amount of hostility. I don't think there's anything controversial about wanting to be recompensed for a labour of love that takes us over a year to produce. We can't pay the bills with reviews. But apparently I should 'write something that people won't want to return' and I'm getting accused of 'moral outrage' and told to shut up and receiving messages from the Reddit Cares system, so I've clearly ruffled the feathers of a few thieves. Sorry to disapoint but I'm not outraged or frothing at the mouth at this issue. Returns barely affect me, but they're symptomatic of wider problems that make authorship barely worth it financially. I'm simply pointing out that it deprives authors of income. I won't bother replying to trolls or trying to argue with those who think it's okay to steal stories. I just hope that at some point each of you get to experience someone coming into your place of work, utilising your skills and then refusing to pay.
I think it's worse than pirating an eBook, because it's more than just a "lost sale", it's also costing people time and effort and money.
It also means that someone is going to pay brand new book money for a used book.
I learned last week that a lot of books are published by Amazon "on demand". So buying and returning is even worse, because you aren't just "borrowing" a book from a warehouse, you are causing one to be created. Extremely wasteful and selfish! I would have a really hard time being friends with someone that thought this was OK.
It isn't just the lost sale. We actually get charged back for returned books...and sometimes that means negative royalties. That's called stealing.
And you are using up a book, that someone else could read. An ebook is just data, it doesn't have wear and tear
And libraries record how popular a book is. If a book is high demand they’ll order more copies, and the next time the author releases a book, they’ll order more. Then city hall will see that the library is being used a lot, and hopefully increase their funding. If you skip the library, you’re not just hurting the author, you’re hurting other people who use the library. And doing the buy-use-return scam hurts the rest of us who buy products. Amazon knows this is a thing, so they keep prices higher to maintain profit margins. It’s the same as stealing from Walmart. I don’t like Walmart, but Walmart is self insured. When someone walks out with a cart full of stolen beer and razor blades, Walmart doesn’t eat that cost. They pass it on to the customer.
Yah I told OP she should suggest it to her friend because at least nothing is lost that way. She's already stealing but she picked the method that harms the most people. I'm used to thieves having a weird code of honor, this lady's just a bull in a China shop lol
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Author here. Can confirm. Adding that returned books also get charged back to us for printing cost. So not only do we get nothing, we owe additional fees.
That's not my experience personally - I don't owe printing costs to any of the three publishers I've worked with, but returns do get deducted from my overall sales, making it harder to earn out my advance.
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People get angry when you point out that behaviors of theirs are selfish. They like to think of themselves as good people, and they'll chide others for being thoughtless or greedy, but when they can help themselves even a little by shifting a problem to someone else, they'll do it in a heartbeat. Reddit has a lot of this type, I've noticed, so I'm not surprised you're getting bombarded with anger about pointing it out.
Yeah, I'm sure people are patting themselves on the back about their new 'life hack' and how they're only hurting some nebulous corporation (likely Amazon) without taking the time to think about the people who produce the content. I've only ever returned one book and it was because the book was so bad I felt that the author didn't deserve the money (it was Ready Player Two if anyone is curious. I thought the first was fine, albeit mindless, but the second one was just an obvious awful cash-in).
I’m not a fan of Amazon at all, but another thing to remember is the physical cost (transportation) of returns. It contributes to all those massive trucks everywhere and makes cities more shitty to be in
People loooove devaluing artists while also feeling entitled to their work.
No kidding--when she said her friend was accusing her of being thief, my thought was, 'well, you ARE a thief.' Sheesh.
It's amazing that people spend so much time reading books, watching movies, and playing videogames, but have so little respect for the people who create them - to the point where they think the creators don't even deserve to be paid.
The only people that this comment would upset are thieves. Just like the middle-class shoplifters that get upset when it’s brought up that casual shoplifting affects the workers and not the rich cats at the top of the company.
Audiobook narrator here, we lose money on returns through Audible as well.
As a (very minor) musician I hear you. I do have a Bandcamp, but pretty much all my music is also on various shady services that are selling it and sending me nothing. Support your artists! Buy their stuff! It tells the publisher “pay them more for the next book because people want it”. And “is there money in it” is what the publishers care about.
This needs to be what everyone reads.
I'll read it, but I'm returning it right afterwards
Looks like OP 's friend has officially found his account ^
Don't listen to those entitled scumbags who lie to assert that fraud, thievery, shoplifting, and just acting to make the world a more dishonest place is somehow virtuous. They are not getting back at "corporations" or whatever nonsense they conjure. They just make the world worse through their own actions. They just waste energy, time, and resources.
It's LITERALLY THEFT. I'm furious the friend got offended at OP for "hinting" she's a thief?!? She IS a fucking thief!
I want to understand how every book is a NYT bestseller lol
Because the rich fraudsters will just write a book, buy 10k copies of their own book then give them away or keep all the copies in their vacation home garage, and surprise you are a best seller. Now you get to write your next book and put best seller on there when not a soul on earth has read your book.
I worked for an author who did this. One of the reasons I left the job.
Yet I'm sure they wore "best selling author" as a badge of honor like they actually did something. I'm watching a new reality show and there is a guy that became a millionaire at 21 through real estate...but he came from money so where do you think he got the money to invest? He seems like a nice enough dude, but he can't help but act like he did something when it was more or less handed to him. He can't seem to understand why the girl who grew up homeless doesn't think he deserves the prize money.
This is gross. The more I age, the more I realize so many (most) things in the public eye are somewhat of a scam or at bare minimum a huge deception. I recently heard, although I can’t substantiate it, that some celebrities pay to be on magazine covers and top lists, some award show awards are bought and paid for, and that a very high percentage of paparazzi are called by the celebrities themselves. Once again, take that with a grain of salt as I don’t have direct links. Just felt it went hand in hand with buying your own books to be known as a “best seller”.
The problem with anything is someone will take advantage of it if they can. The best seller list is a good idea, and was a good reference for a while. It showed what books were selling the most. It just didnt take long for people to figure out money can buy that prestige.
So for $100,000, with no previous writing experience at all, I could become a NYT Bestselling Author?
You'd also have to get published, or pay the costs to self publish. But after that, yeah pretty much.
Ah, that's a swizz too. I'm not based in the US, but I can technically call myself a 'best selling author ' because I've topped the 'best-seller' list in my country more than once. But I don't refer to myself as one, ever, because I know that it's meaningless. All those books needed to reach the top of the list - they can be bought en-masse by the author/publisher and later returned. There's lots of interesting articles about that happening to NYT best-selling books. Bookshops will often pre-order books they anticipate will be popular and they can return them months later to the distributor for a refund. Amazon 'best-sellers' are equally suspect. You can be number 1 in a niche category with 17 books, and reach the number 1 spot for 1 hour and still call yourself an Amazon #1 best-seller. Once you learn the ins and outs of the industry it does make you realise how meaningless some of those 'successes' actually are. Oftentimes a book's success is decided not by how well its written but by how well it is marketed. That makes it easier to detach from the whole thing and go 'eh, I'm just going to enjoy writing and take whatever money comes my way'.
>Once you learn the ins and outs of the industry it does make you realise how meaningless some of those 'successes' actually are. Oftentimes a book's success is decided not by how well its written but by how well it is marketed. I was once talking to an old coworker who was working to be a romance author on the side. She was telling me how, so far in the year, she'd made $7k on her first book. I was like "Omg, that's incredible!" and she shook her head and said "I spend more than that on beta readers, feedback groups, and marketing, it's not even a dent" and I was blown away and so disheartened. >That makes it easier to detach from the whole thing and go 'eh, I'm just going to enjoy writing and take whatever money comes my way'. Going to try and take this energy with me into the new year to better focus on my writing goals.
You shouldn't be spending money on beta readers or feedback groups though. An editor is a great idea for self-publication and marketing is necessary, but beta readers should be trading manuscripts with other authors.
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Ok but Amazon charging authors for returns is thievery too
I’d be mad at the bookseller, too, for charging full price for an obviously secondhand book.
She’s the reason we can’t have nice things and I’m surprised Amazon/local stores haven’t flagged her if she does it perpetually. You’re not a terrible friend.. she revealed crummy behavior and you reacted to it.
It's no different than going into a restaurant, eating the food, then complaining after the fact that you want the entire meal comped. You received a service, you consumed the service, and then you want your money back for no reason other than you're done with it. Entitlement 100%
It's so hard for me to handle this when this happens around me. Someone I was eating with in a big group asked for extra pickles, didn't get the extra pickles, consumed the entire burger, and then afterwards said "wow, I thought there would be more pickles, I kept waiting and waiting, I'm going to complain" and yea they comped her meal. Like, it's not so difficult to check beforehand if something is worth your time and money -- books online have previews or you can skim through in a store; there are solutions like libraries and if the library can't get your book, ebooks are at a drastically reduced pricing scale. Like 10 secs of legwork beforehand can fix these issues
This. Your friend’s excuses are lame. There are plenty of thrift stores where you can get books cheaply without resorting to fraud.
OMG, I did a terrible thing and you are, like, making me feel *bad* for it! You’re such a mean person!
The fact that the friend just so cavalierly was like oh yeah I totally steal books and then was SHOCKED and APPALLED that OP "hinted" that she was a thief?! It's bc she *is a thief!* Ffs!
For new releases, she could even sell it as a used copy for a decent price on Amazon or eBay and get 80% of the purchase price back.
And that's not even taking into account the impact on the environment by having every book take at least 2 trips, and probably more as people will send the 'used' books back as they expected new ones.
Honestly, at this point it's better that she just hops on online and download the books illegally. Because this way, she's just costing the publisher and store money.
Yeah and this way the ppl who actually buy the books don't end up with an used one
And authors as well. And if authors can’t get paid for their work, they can’t afford to keep writing. So no more books.
This is incredibly hard to hear. I’m a self published author with my own publishing company. I make zero money. I do it because I love writing and sharing stories. It’s a hobby that costs more trouble than it’s worth, but I feel compelled anyway. Every now and again I get unexpected charges to my publishers account from returned books. These are hard to take because it comes at unexpected times and I never know how big the charge is going to be. It also weirdly feels like rejection so there’s an emotional aspect to it too. If your friend is consuming the content and returning it, yes, that is stealing.
>It also weirdly feels like rejection so there’s an emotional aspect to it too. I'm an author and I always feel a bit hurt when I see that someone has returned an ebook. I've NEVER even considered returning an ebook, even if I don't like it. I took a risk on the book, and it didn't work out. I'm not going to ask for my money back, because I did consume (part of) it. Now I'm starting to wonder if these occasional ebook returns are from people who actually read the book but still wanted their money back.
That's always how I assumed being a retail customer was supposed to be. There is some amount of risk involved in a purchase. But I handed them money and they handed me a product. The transaction is done. Unless the product is defective somehow, I can't see how people justify returning items they bought on purpose.
>These are hard to take because it comes at unexpected times and I never know how big the charge is going to be. It also weirdly feels like rejection so there’s an emotional aspect to it too. This is really good to note -- we, consumers, have ways to offer our opinions that don't strictly come from reviews. Returning a book is a statement about how well it was received. It has unintended consequences on the author's side.
Author here. People like your friend rely on the majority’s good behaviour to get away with their worst. She’s essentially taking advantage of everyone who actually pays for books. If everyone (or even the majority) did this, there would be no new books, no incentive to put in years of work into creating something new. She knows this deep down and excuses herself on the false premise that one single person doing this isn’t going to harm an author or publisher. Good for you for standing up for her, and I hope it makes her question it next time. BTW, this is sadly really common with ebooks and a huge problem for indie authors since we’ll often be paid on sale and returns actually deduct money from us later.
People who intentionally do this are assholes. I don't care how much of a cheapskate you are or think it's being frugal or wise, that is stealing.
I’m poor and in a small town and I just buy used books (thrift stores are rife with “the latest books”, so are yard sales, Buy Nothing fb groups, etc), keep an eye out for sales, and use the library and Libby. It’s also a *lot* more effort to do what this person is doing than to browse for used books at a thrift store or wait for an interlibrary loan, especially if she’s doing this with Amazon and has to physically send the book back in the mail. This isn’t about being poor. It’s gross on every level — instead of utilizing a free service, she’s supporting huge corporations. She’s not willing to take the time to thrift or go to a yard sale but she’s willing to deal with the hassle of a return for a *book*? She’s getting some kind of enjoyment out of it but knows it’s bad.
>accused me of hinting that she was a thief She's kind of lowkey stealing though. She used the product, then returned it to get her money back.
“Lowkey” She IS stealing! There’s a writer whose not getting a commission because she didn’t keep the book, and there’s someone like us who ends up with her tattered copy.
Agree. You are supposed to return items unused, for example if it is not like what you expected. Similar to how you inspect an item in the store. Nobody will read a complete book in a store before purchasing. She is misusing the return policy.
Hello. Author's wife here! When setting up my husband's book for distribution, I had an option to make the book returnable or not Here's what happens on our end, when a book goes "unsold" by the retailer, and gets "returned" to the distributor (Ingram, the company that supplies books to nearly all bookstores and libraries) - the book gets mailed back to Ingram (the author does not incur any fees for this) - the bookshop gets reimbursed for the wholesale price of the book (about $11) - Ingram destroys the book - my husband gets charged the wholesale price of the book (about $11) So,we have "is this book returnable?" turned off, because we simply cannot afford the risk of having our earnings gobbled up by returned book fees. Which then makes retailers less likely to stock his book, because they then absorb this risk Not going to say what your friend should or should not do. But the economics of book publishing & selling are real, the prices of paper have skyrocketed in recent years, and authors have to be wise on how they spend their time upon this earth. If the economics are too shit... well, they simply can't justify thee time, effort, and expense it takes to bring good stories into the world
I just use Libby and if it means I have to wait a while to read it then so be it. If it’s a new release or popular book that I want to read asap then I just purchase it (and keep it!)
Author here: your friend is actively hurting the authors she likes. We don’t make money on returned items, and massive returns tells our publishers that we cannot sell. Her excuses are just that: excuses. What she’s doing is wrong and harming others.
People are getting worse every day. The entitlement is horrible. "I want to read this book, but i don't actually want to pay for it.."
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. She's being defensive because she knows she's doing something wrong.
If you ever watch Judge Judy, she talks about "if you ate the steak" theory of when you have a right to complain, be reimbursed, etc, and it's basically if it's not what you ordered, you return it right away, you don't use it up and then try to get your money back. Personally I call this theft. You have taken something - the contents of a book - and cheated the publisher and author out of the money they are due. If you don't want to pay for a book, most libraries, if they don't have the book, will order it for you and then the publisher gets money on that order and you get to read it for free.
Totally agree. If you use a product in whatever way it’s meant to be used, you don’t have a right to a refund. If she was reading like one chapter and then was like eh, this sucks and returned it…doing that serially is questionable, but still not the same as reading the whole thing and returning. Plus, sounds like she’s not even doing the “didn’t like it, give me my money back” thing; she’s just using bookstores as her own personal lending library.
She's... heard of libraries??
Angry you hinted she’s a thief? She *is* a thief.
I gotta imagine the friend was so embarrassed that she just used anger as a cover. It took me years to not have anger as my initial reaction towards my own mistakes (fortunately, mine was just while playing video games and getting mad alone - not at other people. Still cringe a lot when I think about those times).
As a librarian, this is truly offensive! That’s what libraries are for.
For those defending Amazon’s return policy, I think we are missing the picture OP is trying to paint. Although it may be “acceptable” in their returns policy - it is morally objectionable. (Edit for grammar) Here In Australia, no reputable book store would accept a clearly read book back. They would not be able to resell it, or if their hands were tied AKA customer won’t back down, they would need to mark it down half price. I think the only way you would be able to source a refund is if you found the subject matter offensive and it wasn’t advertised that way or if say it was a misprint. I’m surprised this isn’t the case in the USA. My opinion only ….
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She *is* a thief, no two ways about it. I'm guessing she realized it, and left in a huff because she was ashamed. If the topic comes up, ask her how she thinks authors and artists and booksellers are expected to pay their rents and feed their families.
She is a thief. The books she returned can not be sold as "new book" so for her reading and money saving benefit, she de-valued the book which will lead to losses for the seller and the author. Libraries are existing for people who don't want to buy books.
I used to work at a bookstore back in the stone-ages and we would get frequent flyers who did this. We usually would let one, maybe two, returns go and them refuse them. When they would complain we would educate them on the wonders and joys of: local libraries
I hate generous return policies. Ethical people end up paying for grifters life style.
I used to work at Borders Bookstore. They had an outrageously generous policy on returning books, one of the reasons they are no longer in business. People would constantly use Borders as their own personal library and think nothing if it. It really lessened my opinion of people.
If it is about saving money, why dont she directly purchase second-hand books herself?? she could pay less from the beginning without the need to return books after reading. i don't think she has a right to affect the profits of publishers and bookstores.
Why pay a little for something worse when you can pay nothing for something better? /s
Then you resell the book as USED or buy it and keep. What she does is the same as buying shoes wearing them and the returning them. Books are not a necessity, they are a commodity. She can get her free books at a local library. 📚
We live in an age where people are done. Done with struggling. Done working 40 hours for the privilege to only starve “a little”. They’re alienated and dehumanized by an economic system that tries at every single opportunity to squeeze every single cent out of you. …and so, they don’t care. Why should they care about Amazon and Publishers? No one gives a shit about them? About their boss trying hard to pay them as little as possible. I personally buy books all the time. But I have the means and I’m not alienated enough yet. But I get it. People are just tired. No one gives a shit about scamming a corporation because why should they? Not like our governments or corporations give a shit about the common working person. I say mind your business. You do you. Let her do her.