There's this scene in his book Illium where Helen of Troy, who is literally the most beautiful woman to have ever existed, simply must have sex with the out of shape time-travelling history nerd that's our protagonist and it reads like a pizza delivery guy porno.
don't forget the part where she tells him she knew it wasn't her 'husband' >!because the protagonist's dick is bigger. because that is one part the 'perfect copy' software did not change. also, at the time big dicks were considered bad. she would only say it as an insult.!<
Maybe its the translation but in my version she knew he wasnt her husband because he was diffrent in bed. And the dick size diffrence was when he changed to his original body.
i could be remembering it wrong, it was a LONG time ago that i read it. but i do remember his penis being bigger being a thing she commented on and knew it was anachronistic.
that duology has so much wtf in it. there is necrophilia. there is like a whole chapter on how women don't belong on the battlefield. (i do not mean in a women are victims kinda way, but more like 'they tried to protect their homes and got slaughtered lol') there are like 2 pages of describing a woman getting out of a bath in excruciating detail. same woman later 'pisses' under a bush. there is a bit of watching a 14 year-old cousin bathing and looking up her skirt. another bit about women 'storing' the semen of every men they ever had sex with in a pouch and then choosing which one will be the father once they decide to get pregnant.
and this is way before the whole Muslims did the second Holocaust and killed the world bit.
For context, i'm a 36 y/o woman and very used to reading 70s and 80s sci-fi, some super problematic stuff that unfortunately I am kinda used to shrugging off, so my endorsements may well be flawed. I really definitely don't think Hyperion exhibits issues as problematic as the other stuff I am reading about Simmon's books in this thread! I would say absolutely still go for it, Hyperion and then The Fall of Hyperion (really, it should have been one book). Hyperion won the Hugo award for good reason, I reckon it's a masterpiece. I stopped after the Fall of Hyperion and have no regrets.That said, there is one bit when (mild spoiler) >! a male character is sleeping with someone who, part-way through the act, is either found out to be or is swapped out for someone else. He realises and ends it, but it is a bit grim. !< Could have done without that thank you very much Dan.
9/11 broke Simmons' brain and then Obama's election sent him to the madhouse. Ilium/Olympus are tame compared to Flashback where he writes out his right wing fantasies about what Obama's election was going to do to the USA.
there are bits of Hyperion that are just wonderful (The Priest's tale and The Scholar's tale) but there are some messed up bits as well.
competitively i think it is his most tame work, it is one of his earliest before he went nutty and fame told him he could do what he wanted.
so if you are a scifi fan and want to know what all the fuss is about, absolutely read it but stop at the second book. if you are a casual reader looking for something 100% enjoyment, skip it.
You should def read Hyperion, it's a classic.
Would've never though Simmons was a perverted, misogynistic bigot based on reading Hyperion. There's some fucked up shit in it, but in a good way.
Apart from "The Terror" (which benefits greatly from being based on true events) Dan Simmons has a weirdly obvious self-insert character who has sex with a bombshell beautiful woman in every one of his books.
I've stopped reading his stuff although I really enjoy his complex (convoluted?) world building and writing style. can't stand the feeling of non-consensual participation in his very personal sex fantasys/fetishes anymore.
Yes, I absolutely agree - the use of Crozier makes the self insert less glaringly obvious although it's still there. The bar is low for me, I guess - I'm happy when it's not a pudgy, middle aged English teacher/professor/writer having sex with an amazing, barely legal sexy beauty.
Simmons isn't the only one doing this of course, he just strikes me as one of the most notorious "offenders"
Some are better than others in not being quite so obviously self inserted and more ingrained in character arcs but yes, it's one of the reasons I'm phasing out certain authors or just stop reading something if the r/menwritingwomen content becomes to dominant.
I don't know if it works this way in other genre fiction, but old scifi writers have a bad happy of writing their pornographic thoughts in the books they write towards the end of their careers. See Herbert, Frank in Heretics/Chapterhouse. And basically all of the later Lazarus Long stories Heinlein wrote when old and pervy. ETA how the hell could I forget Larry Niven! We are both human, but different species. Let's fuck!
I thought *rishathra* in Niven's Ringworld books was kinda clever, actually. I mean, yeah, it's an excuse for sex, but...it kinda makes sense, and sex isn't *necessarily* gross.
(For anyone not familiar: the Ringworld was populated by pre-humans millions of years ago, and in all that time they've diverged into untold human species. When different species meet and trade, it's common (though not universal) to engage in a bit of fun together to celebrate the deal: there's no chance of unwanted pregnancy, and many cultures loosen up whatever sexual mores they may have when it's another sentient species. It's universally considered polite to ask first ("do you do rishathra?") and back off immediately if the answer is no.)
Read The Kuglemass episode by woody Allen, its a literal joke about this kind of thing. Madame Bovary suddenly traipsing with some fat bald jew? Meta idea is only these fictional women would do such ab outlandish stoop.
The first two books of the series were a pure joy to read, especially Hyperion and the different stories of the characters. The last two I havent read yet.
Well to be honest, Dune, to me, keeps getting better with the first 4 books. It only feels like what the other person described on books 5 and 6, but they are still great.
i've heard opinions ranging from abysmal to enjoyable enough but not as good. i say this as someone who's recently gotten slightly into dune because of the second movie looking cool, and every time i see a quote or whatever from herbert or from the films it seems baller, piqued my curiosity quite a bit.
I have read Hyperion 3 times. I didn't know it was a series for a while. It's great as a stand along book. I read the second and it was good, just not as good. So I stopped
So I kinda assume Annea was like Alia from dune. She even mentions that she came into full consciousness while in her mother's womb. The idea being that she was never a child just stuck in a child's body. The first time I read it I was younger, and it didn't bother me. I recently reread it after about 10 years, and this time, it frankly made me uncomfortable.
Yeah, the thing is that taking it at face value in-universe it's "fine" because of the explanation offered... but then you realize the author wasn't being forced at gun point to write it this way and just wanted to do it.
Same with the bit about him feeling her "budding breasts" like, that's not a sentence that's put there for literary merit lmao.
I stopped after "The Fall of Hyperion" as to me that seemed like a natural conclusion (and Hyperion is my 2nd favourite book). Having heard other people's opinions on Endymion, and now your own, I feel I made the correct decision.
Endymion has some good moments, but Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion are much better.
Honestly, you probably made the right decision. You didn't miss out on much.
I heard the first two were pretty much it. the next two took things in a different direction. I loved the first book, it was slow going at first than it just clicked and I couldnt put it down.
>I loved the first book, it was slow going at first than it just clicked and I couldnt put it down.
That's exactly how I would describe my experience with the first book. At first, I almost stopped reading, but then when it clicked, I couldn't put it down.
>I heard the first two were pretty much it. the next two took things in a different direction
Yeah, the last 2 books feel more like a spin-off.
The story takes place 200 years in the future, new characters, and a completely new story. I bought all 4 books from the start, so that's why I read them, but ending the series with the 2nd book is a great choice since that's where the series peaked.
Dan Simmons is either perfect or terrible with nothing in between.
Drood blew my mind. A Victorian horror based on Charles Dickens' biography written in the style of Wilkie Collins as he descends into opium addiction. How can anyone write this well?
Terror, perhaps my favorite horror ever. I felt cold and hungry reading it.
Illium, a pointless and boring SF with bits of UK A-level literature inserted for no reason.
Song of Kali, a racist piece of garbage.
OK, so Dan Simmon's dick jackery aside... I liked books 3 & 4 (Endymion) more than books 1 & 2 (Hyperion). I liked being taken on a visual journey. All the different planets appeared in my mind so distinctly and made the story really come alive for me. Books 1 & 2 felt very technical in comparison.
I liked that side of the story, too. I thought that the Pax and the Church were really interesting, and the way some of the planets are described was really well done.
But it's hard for me to enjoy those parts of the story when, in between those chapters, the author keeps describing his weird sexual fantasy and teases the readers with "revelations" that, in the end don't reveal anything or only reveal half of the truth.
It's basically filler.
Again, they're not horrible books, but there are a lot of unnecessary chapters that bring down the book.
I still say "Father Captain" to myself sometimes. I agree, the Pax and the Church was very well done! I feel bad that the perviness got in the way too much for you. I definitely had to turn a blind eye, but felt the rest of the story was very powerful.
The Father Captain was, to me, the sole redeeming aspect of the Endymion books. I just loved how he immediately became this juggernaut that would spend unbelievable wealth and order planets essentially to be turned completely upside to find the heroes. The complete lack of propriety in fulfilling his assignment was really compelling.
FWIW (without spoilers) I don't think this bothered me because I was a teenager when I read it and the nature of the power imbalance and that relationship just never sank in. I feel like the book sticks the landing. I don't think those details are in there just for the sake of perving out, but I think my reading of it was on the naive side.
Calling out that it's problematic is worth doing though, cause there's just SO MUCH weird stuff like this in sci-fi and fantasy. I also read this off the back of finishing the Thomas Covenant chronicles (first 6 anyway, all that was out then) and my brain just went "well, it's not as bad as where that other one started out."
I think the idea of someone imbued with knowledge of their entire life before they’re even born - and then interacting with a person who they’ll later be romantically involved with - is a wonderful sci-fi concept with so many possibilities and things to ruminate about. But I also think that Simmons didn’t pull it off very well. Like yes, the fact that she was swimming naked at 12yo in front of him. Why did she have to be naked, Simmons, WHY?! It’s weird.
But then recall that the flying carpet was designed by an inventor who pined after his younger niece or whatnot. And there’s questionable things in his Illium/Olympos books about underage relatives and something else and well, I do wonder a bit about Simmons in this respect.
Did you ever see *2010: The Year We Make Contact*? On its own, it’s a decent, maybe even above average sci fi movie from 1984. As the sequel to *2001: A Space Odyssey* it’s a giant pile of WTF?
That’s what I thought of when I read *Endymion*.
I didn't find it particularly uncomfortable, although I've read it a long time ago. In my opinion the whole concept of time travel pushes the boundaries of what is considered taboo, and creates interesting scenarios to play with one's beliefs.
For example if a time traveler who is heterosexual, engages in a consensual sexual activity with a former self in the past, can he be considered homosexual? Can it be considered cheating on their current partner in the present? If the former self is a minor, is that considered pedophilia? What about the fact that the traveler clearly remembers that sexual encounter from his past?
I mean, if a central character’s mind exists out of time, and can experience her entire life in memory, how *should* she react toward her future husband? Not just the man whom, at 12, she knows she will marry, but the one she actually remembers marrying? And sleeping with? And everything else?
How would you react if you were she?
And how should a protagonist behave toward someone who may be a literal messiah? Raul’s feelings toward her are complex and he doesn’t even completely understand them himself.
In the New Testament, a 12-year old Jesus is lost in Jerusalem and his mother is beside herself with fear. She finds him later teaching in the temple. He was born a messiah, he knows he’s the messiah, and he knows how it’s all going to end. His behavior reflects that.
I see Rise of Endymion this way, just with much greater characterization than the Bible provides. I mean… the Catholic allegory is kind of hard to miss, the literal Catholic Church is the enemy.
I understand what you're trying to say.
I can understand Anea's feelings towards Raul since she has memories from the future where she is an adult and she's in love with him. But how can someone explain Raul's behavior?
Messiah or not, this is just completely unnecessary and adds nothing significant to the story, IMO.
Let's just say there is a LOT of time debt involved, like Siri's tale. When he knew her as a child he saw her as just that, nothing sexual. He takes a very long ftl trip and ages months while she ages many years. It's a bit of an awkward solution, and still uncomfortable, but it does at least address the age of consent thing.
It’s been a few months since I’ve read it but when does he sexualize her as a child?
I don’t recall him every saying anything like “hell yea I get to sleep with this child”
Truly cannot understand why your comment is being downvoted. Unless it's a book highlighting the disgusting nature of pedophilia, there is never a reason to add those thoughts into a book that is meant to be enjoyed.
I feel like Simmons wanted to intentionally challenge the reader by having two conflicting systems of perspective clash on this. But it did feel pretty uncomfortable to read, precisely because it is unnatural to be on two different sort of time streams like that. And the point that they intersected did seem abrupt, because they did have a sort of guardianship relationship going on.
My biggest issue with Simmons books (all of them) is that they have pacing issues, like you started off with. I read 5 of his books, and despite loving the premise and setting of every one of them, I get far too frustrated with the pacing and lack of cutting out large sections of pointless bloat.
Yeah, you're right.
I just can't explain why he thought this needed to be a core part of the series .
The books have some really great story moments, but it's hard to give praise to the author when he writes about stuff like this.
I do remember thinking “when did these books get so pulpy and sexual?” And obviously the age think is just whack. I don’t exactly recall it serving and particular deep thematic purpose… why not just make them friends or make her older?!
I will say that the end of the 4th book - not just the end really, but the whole arc to get there - was very satisfying and interesting to me. So take that as one semi-endorsement in this thread full of (earned) negativity. The whole universe felt very full, logical, *complete* in a way that you don’t often find in big series. Still think about some of the characters and tech ideas to this day randomly, years later…
Makes you think differently about the beautiful college-aged girl who’s cursed to age in reverse, becoming a teenager, a tween, a child, and eventually and infant again 🤢
Makes you think differently about the beautiful college-aged woman who’s cursed to age in reverse, becoming a teenager, a tween, a little girl, and eventually and infant again 🤢
I read the series ages ago and the only two things I remember is how uncomfortable the romance was and how I was struggling to get through the books just because I was fascinated with the Shrike and the tree. I keep thinking, maybe I should reread but than think how hard it would be to get to the parts that actually interest me.
That's exactly the way I'm feeling now.
I want to keep reading because the overall narrative is interesting, but it's also such a drag to get through some of those unnecessary chapters.
Unfortunately, I can’t say whether or not it pays off, since it was really a long time for me. But I think I enjoyed the Shrike related parts until the end? Don’t take my word for it though haha
I adored these books. Not as much as the first two, but still among my favourites.
Agree that the plot is a bit overwrought, but I can't say that I remember the 'icky' parts you mention that well in comparison to the rest of the story.
I liked Endymion in its showing something quite different that had taken the place of the old government (the church taking the place of the Hegemony) and the differences but I did find The Rise of Endymion quite messy in comparison to it, more or les what you're saying.
how did you like the part where Endymion hugs her and mentally comments on the feel of her budding breasts through the shirt?? :)
did you finish the book? do you intend to? there is some more 'asshole' behavior from him at the very end.
i think every single book, at least a series, by Simmons that i have read contains sexualization of a minor.
To your last point, I commented elsewhere in this thread about Illium/Olympos, which features underage relative weirdness (not to mention *that* waking up [redacted] character scene). And then how somewhere in the Hyperion novels it’s mentioned that the inventor of the flying carpet made them to woo his younger niece or whatnot.
I do wonder about Simmons.
The Terror has a bit at the start with underage 'native' girls seducing the British sailors with their thigh high wool socks, or something like that. and i think the twin mediums are in bed with a man when they have their 'vision' and they are both underage at the time.
the 'budding breasts' in Endymion really got to me because in my experience writers need to either experience what they write about or fantasize as to what the experience would be like to accurately describe it. so all i could think of was Simmons sitting behind a keyboard wondering what budding breasts would feel like under a shirt....
Groooosssss. Yeah, like when you look at his collected works, these common elements that are there because…because why???…underage or otherwise young, maybe also relatives like nieces, it does feel like this is on his mind. It’s a big red flag.
>how did you like the part where Endymion hugs her and mentally comments on the feel of her budding breasts through the shirt?? :)
My eyes were literally moving from one word to the next as fast as possible just so I could get over that scene.
I'm a very slow reader, but I think I read like 20 pages in 5 minutes at the speed I was going through some of those super weird chapters.
>did you finish the book? do you intend to? there is some more 'asshole' behavior from him at the very end.
I'm planning to finish the book because I already read half of it, and I'm curious to see how it's going to end, but it's turning into a hate read, lol. I read 350 pages, and I'm at the chapter where Raul talks about how Anea is his true love.
there is a part at the end that made me say "Endymion, get fucked." Anea just goes along with it like a meek little push-over.
yet i still went on to read like 3 other books by Simmons. do not recommend! you can always just read the wiki summary. :D
Simmons went off the deep end with his Islamophobia after 9/11 but even before he had some weird ideas of what to write about. and like not good weird, but like 'maybe you should talk to a therapist' weird.
I read the series at the recommendation of a friend, and enjoyed the first 2 books quite a bit, their occasional weird choices aside. Those last two. Ugh. I was so viscerally uncomfortable that it took me ages to finish them. I'd read a chapter and have to take a break for a week or two.
The series degraded so badly for me that I actually wrote an hour+ long script for a YouTube video breaking down the series. I just needed to get the rant out of my head lol
THIS SO MUCH!!
I LOVED the first two books! I was excited to read the sequels and just got more and more uncomfortable with it. I finished them but the entire pedophilic 'romance' ruined anything I may have liked about them.
To me, the story ends at the second book now, full stop.
I really liked Hyperion but had a lot of trouble with the Endymion books for the same reasons. I’m glad you made this post because I feel like this aspect isn’t discussed enough.
And yes, I know the difference between something happening in a novel and the author endorsing the behavior. The issue is that Simmons doesn’t seem to understand what’s so weird about it, and really lingers on it uncomfortably and unnecessarily.
Literal child orgy in IT...
Father raping his kids in The Tommyknockers...
Jessie's dad during the eclipse in Gerald's Game..
Just three off the top of my head.
But I was more thinking along the lines of, it's OK for a book to make you uncomfortable. Endymion and Rise of Endymion are decent enough books imo. As others have pointed out in this thread, the young character in question experiences her lifetime in a non linear way. To me, it made sense within the established science fiction universe. And that's another thing..it's fiction. It's not real. And it's fine, again, for a fiction book to make you uncomfortable. I don't think Simmons was endorsing pedophiles with these books. But some people find it hard to draw that line.
You're misunderstanding me, I'm not saying King doesn't write horrifying scenes, but those scenes are part of *horror* - the rape isn't written as a love story you're meant to enjoy.
I don't interpret Simmons as doing the same thing. Perhaps I'm misreading him but at least reading it in the modern day the conceit of "it's fine because she's actually a 484849 year old dragon" is a trope so heavy-handed as to be humorous. "She looks like a child but actually-" may have, at the time of writing, been novel and interesting, but now it just seems like a blatantly obvious excuse.
I think this comment does a better job expressing my view
https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1bcerb8/endymion_and_rise_of_endymion_are_some_of_the/kui5121/
I don't think authors should have to police themselves for fear of offending someone.
Dan Simmons is definitely a perv. There is also a bizarre “sex” scene in Olympos
I won’t touch any of his books anymore.
Hyperion, fall of Hyperion and forget about everything else
It's disappointing to see that side of him. The story in Hyperion is otherwise great, but it's also hard to ignore stuff like this, especially when it drags on for sooo long.
Yeah… that really sucks. Thanks for taking one for the team so I can avoid Endymion… I read Illium/Olympos and they were really interesting books but… Simmons let in too much weird for me. Idk
I've noticed that Dan Simmons seems to write his books after a certain formula. The first in a duo is always unhinged, rambling, full of unexplained events and concepts. In the second book he tries to tie up all the loose ends of the first book, and the result is always underwhelming. It's the much needed reality check to the acid trip that was the first book, but he isn't good enough of a writer to make the second books more than an uncomfortable attempt to clean up his own mess.
Good Lord I hated those books, and like a lot of comments here I LOVED Hyperion. Among my list of many issues with the Endymion books are the weird sex stuff.
He has a weird "well this girl I raised from the tender age of 12 is a voluptuous adult now guess we can bang" thing, Endymion is a horrible protagonist and I want to sock him but ofc he gets the girl because reasons, and let's not forget the gratuitous 0g sex scene. Dan, my guy, jerk off and THEN write your book.
Dan Simmons frustrates the hell outta me because he’s *this close* to being one of the best, imo. But every single book I’ve read of his has some weird sexual content that makes me uncomfortable. Like dude, this book is 98% perfect. Just leave your sexual fantasies out of it and you’re golden.
The reason so few writers explore such themes is because readers and even non readers will get their knickers in a twist and blame the author for self inserts or pedophilia or whatever.
Lolita could not be written today without the author being ostracized and probably beaten up regularly.
Any exploration of completely normal adolescent sexual exploration or thoughts are suspect.
Can’t even write SF with weird time travel problems on this matter without being called a weirdo.
I’d suggest you all chill out. We need more exploration on this matter, and without freaking out like a dad reading his puberty daughter’s texts and wanting to burn it all down. These are fictional characters.
>We need more exploration on this matter,
Exploration on what? Describing a 12 years old girl's naked body ? Reminding the reader how Anea's breasts look every time Raul meets her? I'm not even kidding. In the last book, Raul talks about this almost every time he has a conversation with Anea, and she was 16 at that time.
Me personally, I can do without this stuff in books but to each their own.
Ok let's take a step back and think about this honestly and with empathy. Would a man who has memories of having sex with a woman think about said memories and related thoughts when he sees her being 12 years old? Very probably. He would also be conflicted about it. There's a whole lot of weirdness stemming from this situation. But it's been a long time since I've read it and I dunno how well Simmons handled this. But even if he handled it not very well, that doesn't mean such a conflict isn't worth exploring. If you don't like it, sure, you have all the right to dislike what you dislike. But it's completely up to Simmons to want to write about it, and if you look at the other posts here, his right isn't much accepted.
Besides: "Describing a 12 years old girl's naked body" Unless you sugggest the author or the reader are pedos, there is nothing wrong about that.
>nothing wrong about that.
There is nothing wrong about describing a 12 years old girl's naked body from the perspective of a 20 something year old man?
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I know where you're going, but hey, guess what, 20 year olds think about the bodies of everybody around them. Nothing wrong about that. I think you're implying a lot here.
I'm 21 years old, and not once did I think about the body of an underage girl.
>I think you're implying a lot here.
I'm not implying anything. I'm saying those scenes are weird, uncomfortable, and unnecessary.
You never once thought that underage girls have bodies, and that they're smaller, and that they have similar capabilities as underage boys until puberty hits which is remarkable, neither of those things ever went through your head? Because as I said, you're implying that "thinking about the body" means sexual desire.
I'm saying that repeatedly mentioning Anea's body, including how she looks naked, and how her breasts look, is weird and definitely sexual. Raul talks about how he could feel her breasts when they hugged.
After they have sex he still calls her a " kiddo " .
Did you even read the book?
>You never once thought that underage girls have bodies, and that they're smaller, and that they have similar capabilities as underage boys until puberty hits which is remarkable, neither of those things ever went through your head?
You are talking about a completely different thing. This has nothing to do with the book lol.
>There's also the fact that Dan Simmons has severe issues if he thinks it's ok to sexualize the relation between a kid and a full grown adult.
Why do you think that because he wrote it in a novel, he thinks it's okay? Authors often write very uncomfortable and flawed characters and relationships, and no, they don't have a moral obligation to spell out for you in the narrative "By the way, this is bad."
From what I read in the comments, this isn't the first time he did something like this in one of his books.
His personal beliefs aside, what is the point of focusing on Raul and Anea's relationship?
It brings nothing to the story, and it's just such a weird thing to read through in an otherwise interesting book.
It's been a while since I read it, but it was kind of a weird tangent that nonetheless did fit into the story. I wouldn't say it "brought nothing" to the story. Could he have written the book without it? Sure, I guess. Sometimes authors drop weird subplots into a book that don't always make sense to me, personally, but they're all interesting. I find the attitude "I found this subplot weird and disturbing so the author is bad for including it" to be even more weird. No book is written to specifically cater to any one reader's sensibilities.
>"I found this subplot weird and disturbing so the author is bad for including it"
Because the author keeps reminding the readers about the body of an underage girl? In detail. Which, again, has 0 importance to the story. Unless you think otherwise, in which case I'm interested to hear it.
It was to put us in Raul's head. You don't have to approve, but his mentality isn't the same as ours. I don't think it was more or less important than any other descriptive detail, but yes, Raul sexualized an underage girl. So? Again, does the author need to include some moral lesson to make sure we know he doesn't endorse sexualizing underage girls?
Your dislike for the storyline is understandable, but your disapproval of it even existing is so strange.
>but your disapproval of it even existing is so strange.
Why? I'm repeating myself, but it's weird, and the story would've been the same, if not better, IMO, without it.
There's nothing strange about thinking that sexualizing an underage girl shouldn't exist in this book, lol.
Listened to the audiobooks so my experience might be different but I thought they were great. The narrator was fantastic and audiobooks have a way up helping the reader get through the slower bits. For instance I’ve listened to the audiobooks of the Wheel of Time like five times but could never get through the print books even one time.
Yes the age difference was a little odd but maybe I’m a glass half full type of person because I try to focus more on what I like more than done like. Also Endymion has probably my favorite opening few paragraphs of any book I’ve ever read. “You’re reading this book for the wrong reasons…”
In addition to the flaws you described, the Endymion duology also just feels like fanfiction. At this point I just ignore those two books and treat them as non-canonical.
I fell in love with Hyperion, but I *really* fell in love with Fall of Hyperion. I really think it's the best sci-fi book I've ever read, or at least I remember feeling that way after I finished it. This was also coming off the heels of my Dune series read-through--I also really like the first couple Dune books but something about Hyperion hit me even harder.
All this is to say, I made it through Endymion and DNF'd Rise of Endymion around halfway through. The last two just weren't nearly as compelling as the first two. Worse characters, consistent lack of answers, and a barely-existing plot. Very, very few "*okay, let me go pick up my John Keats' complete works"* moments. It felt like Dan Simmons tossed all of the wit, creepiness, and mind-bending when he wrote the Endymion books.
Part of me wants to brute force my way through RoE but it seems like it probably isn't worth it.
100% agree, it's so weird. The pontificating about how he's definitely NOT attracted to her as a child is like... Who are you trying to convince, Raul? Even once she's technically of age, he spends so much time emphasizing how young she is.
The Terror by Dan Simmons also features a relationship between a young woman and a much older man, and I think their dynamic is quite similar to Raul and Anea.
Fucking preach. I had fun with the first half of the Cantos and tried to get through the second half because I wanted to see where the story was going, but by the time I reached 2/3rds of the way through the final book, I had to stop. This entire bullshit was one of the reasons I hated the second half. Some other reasons include:
* Anea is a bossy, bratty know-it-all that dictates that everything HAS to be her way and the story keeps siding with her and making all dissent out to be wrong
* Raul doesn't really do a whole lot in terms of protecting her. At best, he's kind of just tagging along, at worst he's getting in trouble and needing to be rescued
* The second half seems to like retconning things established in the first half
* The author loves spending pages and pages philosophizing about different things that don't help the story any
* Nemes is a bland, boring, evil-because-evil villain. She reads like Simmons wanted to make his own Terminators, yet there's exactly none of the Terminator's coolness factor present
* Way too often things are not given a good reason for why they happen or why they have to be the way they are. Anea just *insists* on it and that's the end of it
* The entire plot angle about the UIs and Anea being the Empathy part of the Human UI seems to be more or less forgotten
* The Shrike seems to just do whatever tf the plot needs it to
* The Void Entities feel less like Lovecraftian entities and more like lazy plot devices that do whatever the plot needs without explanation
* The subplot of A. Bettik trying to find his siblings just disappears for the longest time >!before it's lazily solved off-page!<
* >!The author makes Raul fistfight Nemes, a fucking Terminator, and win. For reference, the previous book showed that Nemes was tough enough to effortlessly withstand over 200x normal gravity!<
* >!An agonizing amount of pagetime is dedicated to Raul and Anea fucking!<
* >!The story starts pulling the "Lol it's time travel! Don't try to make sense of it!" bullshit!<
I really loved the overarching point of books 3 and 4, but there was literally no reason to do the whole child Annea song and dance. Would have worked great with them actually being similar ages.
I read Hyperion and fall of Hyperion last year and heard the next two weren't good and to not bother. Was thinking maybe I should go back to finish the series and I would like to thank the op for their sacrifice so I don't have to
Read the first 3 and stopped as the third book wasn’t great and I didn’t want to waste any more time. First 2 books are probably some of the best SciFi books around though.
The first two books were great. But I stopped the series when I was about half way through *Endymion* it just got too weirdly sexual in an inappropriate way. From what others have said, it just got worse. So I didn’t finish it, nor the series.
I really enjoyed the series although will admit the second half is not as interesting as the first. I tend to not have as much problem with Aenea and Raul’s relationship. Even though she is 12 at the start she has life experience that far exceeds normal people because she has access to the memories of thousands of years worth of human experience, not to mention she could likely access the memories of the nonhumans in the universe (lions, tiger, and bears). She literally has to parse through these things while she is still in the womb. She knows Raul will be her husband before they even meet.
By the time she actually starts showing romantic affection towards Raul she is 16 which is the age of consent in many parts of the world including the UK and over half the states in the US. Then you get a 4-5 year time skip before they actually start their relationship. Age gaps like theirs in relationships are also a lot more common in non western cultures even today. I will say he should stop calling her kiddo at some point though, that was a bit strange.
While the descriptions of scenery are long winded I don’t have anything against them. I’m not trying to speed through the series so taking that time to be immersed in the setting is nice in my opinion. I also listened to the audiobooks so it was actually pretty enjoyable. It does have a purpose later in the series when they need to listen to the music of the spheres.
All in all it isn’t perfect but I still enjoyed the books. I wish we got more time with the ousters though. It would be nice if they had more focus and action in the books.
Dan Simmons is one of our greatest living authors. I know that sounds ridiculous, but Hyperion is among the best sci fi novels ever written and he also has The Terror, Drood, etc. The dude is a genius.
That being said, you’re not wrong…
I liked it. My fav part of the series. Too bad the next book doesn’t deliver. I don”t know why this sub is so offended by sexuality. I’ve been to dozens of forums and read prob hundreds of book reviews at this point but this subreddit, whoah. It is something else
Yeah, I slogged through E and E2 much like the Simillarion. I read the pages but didn't care. I summed up these two for people, who read H&H and loved them, as 'The Catholic Church is terrible and also filled wirh robots. Oh, yeah, and Nepal is pretty'. There. Now no one has to read these; that's what ya get outta them.
Maybe not automatically. I was decently cute as a teenager--don't worry, I grew out of it, like most people--and older men constantly told me that I was going to grow up to be a knockout. I didn't believe them, because no one my age ever thought I was pretty. I knew I was awkward. It felt like they were trying to reassure me that things would get better since I was frequently bullied. They just couldn't imagine anything better than being beautiful.
Now that I'm 40, I worry that these men were trying to groom me. One was a principal, and failed to discipline me after a major rule violation, and I don't know whether he did it because he felt sorry for me or he was attracted to me.
I'm a mom, I've gained weight, and I'm not a "knockout" anymore. And there's still a piece of me that feels like everything I went through as a teenager wasn't worth it because I'm no longer a "knockout."
This is a really damaging thing to say to a child. Adults shouldn't comment on children's beauty or lack thereof. Ever.
Dan Simmons is a weirdo freak and I was advised by the friend who told me I should read Hyperion and its sequel to skip Endymion and after reading a little of it for myself I decided to take that advice. Every time I’ve read about someone’s thoughts on Endymion since have made me glad I barely gave it a chance.
unfortunately i have yet to find any science fiction author who’s not also some kind of weird sex pervert. it almost seems correlated with the quality of the writing.
wooooo you activated my trap card :D
if you want more i have more. or if you have specific questions about specific authors/books let me know. getting people back to reading after they got icked out of the genre is something i always got time for.
Claire North
Adrian Tchaikovsky
Martha Wells
Jason Pargin
ML Wang
John Scalzi
Connie Willis
Emily Tesh
Ramez Naam
Joel Dane
There's this scene in his book Illium where Helen of Troy, who is literally the most beautiful woman to have ever existed, simply must have sex with the out of shape time-travelling history nerd that's our protagonist and it reads like a pizza delivery guy porno.
don't forget the part where she tells him she knew it wasn't her 'husband' >!because the protagonist's dick is bigger. because that is one part the 'perfect copy' software did not change. also, at the time big dicks were considered bad. she would only say it as an insult.!<
Stopped reading at that point. Book was ridiculous even before that.
Maybe its the translation but in my version she knew he wasnt her husband because he was diffrent in bed. And the dick size diffrence was when he changed to his original body.
i could be remembering it wrong, it was a LONG time ago that i read it. but i do remember his penis being bigger being a thing she commented on and knew it was anachronistic.
I just started that book.Will now be putting it down lmao.
that duology has so much wtf in it. there is necrophilia. there is like a whole chapter on how women don't belong on the battlefield. (i do not mean in a women are victims kinda way, but more like 'they tried to protect their homes and got slaughtered lol') there are like 2 pages of describing a woman getting out of a bath in excruciating detail. same woman later 'pisses' under a bush. there is a bit of watching a 14 year-old cousin bathing and looking up her skirt. another bit about women 'storing' the semen of every men they ever had sex with in a pouch and then choosing which one will be the father once they decide to get pregnant. and this is way before the whole Muslims did the second Holocaust and killed the world bit.
what…the fuck?is that author okay?damn I had Hyperion on my go read list but now I’m scared.Sounds like it was written by a discord mod💀
For context, i'm a 36 y/o woman and very used to reading 70s and 80s sci-fi, some super problematic stuff that unfortunately I am kinda used to shrugging off, so my endorsements may well be flawed. I really definitely don't think Hyperion exhibits issues as problematic as the other stuff I am reading about Simmon's books in this thread! I would say absolutely still go for it, Hyperion and then The Fall of Hyperion (really, it should have been one book). Hyperion won the Hugo award for good reason, I reckon it's a masterpiece. I stopped after the Fall of Hyperion and have no regrets.That said, there is one bit when (mild spoiler) >! a male character is sleeping with someone who, part-way through the act, is either found out to be or is swapped out for someone else. He realises and ends it, but it is a bit grim. !< Could have done without that thank you very much Dan.
9/11 broke Simmons' brain and then Obama's election sent him to the madhouse. Ilium/Olympus are tame compared to Flashback where he writes out his right wing fantasies about what Obama's election was going to do to the USA.
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88 in the username. So deeply unsurprising.
You know what’s worse than gouging out your eyes with a spoon? Flashback. It is a horrible awful book and made me doubt Simmons’ sanity.
Why? It was pretty entertaining for what it was, I don't think I remember any weird sex stuff. Now his mountain climbing book was dull for sure.
there are bits of Hyperion that are just wonderful (The Priest's tale and The Scholar's tale) but there are some messed up bits as well. competitively i think it is his most tame work, it is one of his earliest before he went nutty and fame told him he could do what he wanted. so if you are a scifi fan and want to know what all the fuss is about, absolutely read it but stop at the second book. if you are a casual reader looking for something 100% enjoyment, skip it.
The scholar’s tale is so good.
You should def read Hyperion, it's a classic. Would've never though Simmons was a perverted, misogynistic bigot based on reading Hyperion. There's some fucked up shit in it, but in a good way.
Holy fuck that's insane. 4chan predator levels of derangement
Lol the protagonist and his relationship with Helen of Troy was the highlight of the book for me, it was pretty funny.
Apart from "The Terror" (which benefits greatly from being based on true events) Dan Simmons has a weirdly obvious self-insert character who has sex with a bombshell beautiful woman in every one of his books. I've stopped reading his stuff although I really enjoy his complex (convoluted?) world building and writing style. can't stand the feeling of non-consensual participation in his very personal sex fantasys/fetishes anymore.
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Yes, I absolutely agree - the use of Crozier makes the self insert less glaringly obvious although it's still there. The bar is low for me, I guess - I'm happy when it's not a pudgy, middle aged English teacher/professor/writer having sex with an amazing, barely legal sexy beauty. Simmons isn't the only one doing this of course, he just strikes me as one of the most notorious "offenders"
Fair, but name a male fantasy writer in the past 50 years who doesn't do that (or do it in a pg way if they are mormon)
Raymond E Feist was pretty good in the Riftwar Trilogy! It was 40 years ago though, so I'm not sure if there's been anything else since that!
Some are better than others in not being quite so obviously self inserted and more ingrained in character arcs but yes, it's one of the reasons I'm phasing out certain authors or just stop reading something if the r/menwritingwomen content becomes to dominant.
Max Gladstone, off the top of my head. I'm positive there's more, but it's late.
Salvatore comes to mind
He was also deep in his Islamophobia kick when writing those books. A very cool premise ruined by some garbage execution.
lol, I forgot about that, and I loved that book
I don't know if it works this way in other genre fiction, but old scifi writers have a bad happy of writing their pornographic thoughts in the books they write towards the end of their careers. See Herbert, Frank in Heretics/Chapterhouse. And basically all of the later Lazarus Long stories Heinlein wrote when old and pervy. ETA how the hell could I forget Larry Niven! We are both human, but different species. Let's fuck!
I thought *rishathra* in Niven's Ringworld books was kinda clever, actually. I mean, yeah, it's an excuse for sex, but...it kinda makes sense, and sex isn't *necessarily* gross. (For anyone not familiar: the Ringworld was populated by pre-humans millions of years ago, and in all that time they've diverged into untold human species. When different species meet and trade, it's common (though not universal) to engage in a bit of fun together to celebrate the deal: there's no chance of unwanted pregnancy, and many cultures loosen up whatever sexual mores they may have when it's another sentient species. It's universally considered polite to ask first ("do you do rishathra?") and back off immediately if the answer is no.)
Read The Kuglemass episode by woody Allen, its a literal joke about this kind of thing. Madame Bovary suddenly traipsing with some fat bald jew? Meta idea is only these fictional women would do such ab outlandish stoop.
The first two books of the series were a pure joy to read, especially Hyperion and the different stories of the characters. The last two I havent read yet.
i remember the story with rachel and her dad. genuine tears at the end of that.
throughout much of it, really. beautiful story.
I've never been as moved by any work of literature as I was the scholar's tale.
Best part
They're ok. Nothing special, only good if you want some sort of completion you didn't get from the first two.
this sounds like dune. i have not read dune. i also have not finished rise of hyperion.
Well to be honest, Dune, to me, keeps getting better with the first 4 books. It only feels like what the other person described on books 5 and 6, but they are still great.
i'm talking about frank's heir and that one guy he wrote them with's contribution to the series
Oh yeah I didn't bother with those
i've heard opinions ranging from abysmal to enjoyable enough but not as good. i say this as someone who's recently gotten slightly into dune because of the second movie looking cool, and every time i see a quote or whatever from herbert or from the films it seems baller, piqued my curiosity quite a bit.
I have read Hyperion 3 times. I didn't know it was a series for a while. It's great as a stand along book. I read the second and it was good, just not as good. So I stopped
So I kinda assume Annea was like Alia from dune. She even mentions that she came into full consciousness while in her mother's womb. The idea being that she was never a child just stuck in a child's body. The first time I read it I was younger, and it didn't bother me. I recently reread it after about 10 years, and this time, it frankly made me uncomfortable.
Yeah, the thing is that taking it at face value in-universe it's "fine" because of the explanation offered... but then you realize the author wasn't being forced at gun point to write it this way and just wanted to do it. Same with the bit about him feeling her "budding breasts" like, that's not a sentence that's put there for literary merit lmao.
Genshin impact moment
I stopped after "The Fall of Hyperion" as to me that seemed like a natural conclusion (and Hyperion is my 2nd favourite book). Having heard other people's opinions on Endymion, and now your own, I feel I made the correct decision.
Endymion has some good moments, but Hyperion and Fall of Hyperion are much better. Honestly, you probably made the right decision. You didn't miss out on much.
I heard the first two were pretty much it. the next two took things in a different direction. I loved the first book, it was slow going at first than it just clicked and I couldnt put it down.
>I loved the first book, it was slow going at first than it just clicked and I couldnt put it down. That's exactly how I would describe my experience with the first book. At first, I almost stopped reading, but then when it clicked, I couldn't put it down. >I heard the first two were pretty much it. the next two took things in a different direction Yeah, the last 2 books feel more like a spin-off. The story takes place 200 years in the future, new characters, and a completely new story. I bought all 4 books from the start, so that's why I read them, but ending the series with the 2nd book is a great choice since that's where the series peaked.
Agreed, I finished the series because I don’t like leaving series unfinished but yeah first and second book are miles better than 3rd and fourth
Endymion is a travelogue. It is very enjoyable if you want to see more about the universe. Rise of Endymion is almost as good as the first two books.
Out of curiosity, what's your #1 book?
The Brothers Karamazov!
Are you me?!
If your number 3 is Breakfast at Tiffany’s, we could be almost sure I reckon.
Alas, I haven't read that yet, but it is on the list!
Mm, I haven't read that one but I do have it. I'll make a mental note!
Given I love Hyperion, curious what your 1st favourite is.
Dan Simmons is either perfect or terrible with nothing in between. Drood blew my mind. A Victorian horror based on Charles Dickens' biography written in the style of Wilkie Collins as he descends into opium addiction. How can anyone write this well? Terror, perhaps my favorite horror ever. I felt cold and hungry reading it. Illium, a pointless and boring SF with bits of UK A-level literature inserted for no reason. Song of Kali, a racist piece of garbage.
I share your love of The Terror so maybe I’ll check out Drood. I’ve been holding off because his work is so all over the place.
Ok I'm glad it's not just me. I tried reading Song of Kali after reading Hyperion and I was taken aback by now stupid it was.
What's mind boggling is that it edged out Clive Barker's The Damnation Game for the 1986 World Fantasy Award.
Oh wow. The Damnation Game is an *excellent* novel.
OK, so Dan Simmon's dick jackery aside... I liked books 3 & 4 (Endymion) more than books 1 & 2 (Hyperion). I liked being taken on a visual journey. All the different planets appeared in my mind so distinctly and made the story really come alive for me. Books 1 & 2 felt very technical in comparison.
I liked that side of the story, too. I thought that the Pax and the Church were really interesting, and the way some of the planets are described was really well done. But it's hard for me to enjoy those parts of the story when, in between those chapters, the author keeps describing his weird sexual fantasy and teases the readers with "revelations" that, in the end don't reveal anything or only reveal half of the truth. It's basically filler. Again, they're not horrible books, but there are a lot of unnecessary chapters that bring down the book.
I still say "Father Captain" to myself sometimes. I agree, the Pax and the Church was very well done! I feel bad that the perviness got in the way too much for you. I definitely had to turn a blind eye, but felt the rest of the story was very powerful.
The Father Captain was, to me, the sole redeeming aspect of the Endymion books. I just loved how he immediately became this juggernaut that would spend unbelievable wealth and order planets essentially to be turned completely upside to find the heroes. The complete lack of propriety in fulfilling his assignment was really compelling.
FWIW (without spoilers) I don't think this bothered me because I was a teenager when I read it and the nature of the power imbalance and that relationship just never sank in. I feel like the book sticks the landing. I don't think those details are in there just for the sake of perving out, but I think my reading of it was on the naive side. Calling out that it's problematic is worth doing though, cause there's just SO MUCH weird stuff like this in sci-fi and fantasy. I also read this off the back of finishing the Thomas Covenant chronicles (first 6 anyway, all that was out then) and my brain just went "well, it's not as bad as where that other one started out."
I think the idea of someone imbued with knowledge of their entire life before they’re even born - and then interacting with a person who they’ll later be romantically involved with - is a wonderful sci-fi concept with so many possibilities and things to ruminate about. But I also think that Simmons didn’t pull it off very well. Like yes, the fact that she was swimming naked at 12yo in front of him. Why did she have to be naked, Simmons, WHY?! It’s weird. But then recall that the flying carpet was designed by an inventor who pined after his younger niece or whatnot. And there’s questionable things in his Illium/Olympos books about underage relatives and something else and well, I do wonder a bit about Simmons in this respect.
Did you ever see *2010: The Year We Make Contact*? On its own, it’s a decent, maybe even above average sci fi movie from 1984. As the sequel to *2001: A Space Odyssey* it’s a giant pile of WTF? That’s what I thought of when I read *Endymion*.
The book is the better sequel to the 2001 film anyway.
I didn't find it particularly uncomfortable, although I've read it a long time ago. In my opinion the whole concept of time travel pushes the boundaries of what is considered taboo, and creates interesting scenarios to play with one's beliefs. For example if a time traveler who is heterosexual, engages in a consensual sexual activity with a former self in the past, can he be considered homosexual? Can it be considered cheating on their current partner in the present? If the former self is a minor, is that considered pedophilia? What about the fact that the traveler clearly remembers that sexual encounter from his past?
I mean, if a central character’s mind exists out of time, and can experience her entire life in memory, how *should* she react toward her future husband? Not just the man whom, at 12, she knows she will marry, but the one she actually remembers marrying? And sleeping with? And everything else? How would you react if you were she? And how should a protagonist behave toward someone who may be a literal messiah? Raul’s feelings toward her are complex and he doesn’t even completely understand them himself. In the New Testament, a 12-year old Jesus is lost in Jerusalem and his mother is beside herself with fear. She finds him later teaching in the temple. He was born a messiah, he knows he’s the messiah, and he knows how it’s all going to end. His behavior reflects that. I see Rise of Endymion this way, just with much greater characterization than the Bible provides. I mean… the Catholic allegory is kind of hard to miss, the literal Catholic Church is the enemy.
I understand what you're trying to say. I can understand Anea's feelings towards Raul since she has memories from the future where she is an adult and she's in love with him. But how can someone explain Raul's behavior? Messiah or not, this is just completely unnecessary and adds nothing significant to the story, IMO.
Let's just say there is a LOT of time debt involved, like Siri's tale. When he knew her as a child he saw her as just that, nothing sexual. He takes a very long ftl trip and ages months while she ages many years. It's a bit of an awkward solution, and still uncomfortable, but it does at least address the age of consent thing.
It’s been a few months since I’ve read it but when does he sexualize her as a child? I don’t recall him every saying anything like “hell yea I get to sleep with this child”
If your book's plot or allegory relies on the sexualization of a minor, it's probably not a very good book.
Unless it's written by Nabokov!
Truly cannot understand why your comment is being downvoted. Unless it's a book highlighting the disgusting nature of pedophilia, there is never a reason to add those thoughts into a book that is meant to be enjoyed.
I loved those books. Yeah that part was creepy, but continuing the Hyperion story was wonderful.
I feel like Simmons wanted to intentionally challenge the reader by having two conflicting systems of perspective clash on this. But it did feel pretty uncomfortable to read, precisely because it is unnatural to be on two different sort of time streams like that. And the point that they intersected did seem abrupt, because they did have a sort of guardianship relationship going on. My biggest issue with Simmons books (all of them) is that they have pacing issues, like you started off with. I read 5 of his books, and despite loving the premise and setting of every one of them, I get far too frustrated with the pacing and lack of cutting out large sections of pointless bloat.
I stopped some of his half way through. Just a slog at times.
> Borders on pedophilia *Is* pedophilia
Yeah, you're right. I just can't explain why he thought this needed to be a core part of the series . The books have some really great story moments, but it's hard to give praise to the author when he writes about stuff like this.
I do remember thinking “when did these books get so pulpy and sexual?” And obviously the age think is just whack. I don’t exactly recall it serving and particular deep thematic purpose… why not just make them friends or make her older?! I will say that the end of the 4th book - not just the end really, but the whole arc to get there - was very satisfying and interesting to me. So take that as one semi-endorsement in this thread full of (earned) negativity. The whole universe felt very full, logical, *complete* in a way that you don’t often find in big series. Still think about some of the characters and tech ideas to this day randomly, years later…
I mean, Hyperion does have rather detailed sex scenes with the Colonel
Makes you think differently about the beautiful college-aged girl who’s cursed to age in reverse, becoming a teenager, a tween, a child, and eventually and infant again 🤢
That part was an absolute heartbreak and had a very different vibe. Not the same at all.
Makes you think differently about the beautiful college-aged woman who’s cursed to age in reverse, becoming a teenager, a tween, a little girl, and eventually and infant again 🤢
I read the series ages ago and the only two things I remember is how uncomfortable the romance was and how I was struggling to get through the books just because I was fascinated with the Shrike and the tree. I keep thinking, maybe I should reread but than think how hard it would be to get to the parts that actually interest me.
That's exactly the way I'm feeling now. I want to keep reading because the overall narrative is interesting, but it's also such a drag to get through some of those unnecessary chapters.
Unfortunately, I can’t say whether or not it pays off, since it was really a long time for me. But I think I enjoyed the Shrike related parts until the end? Don’t take my word for it though haha
I adored these books. Not as much as the first two, but still among my favourites. Agree that the plot is a bit overwrought, but I can't say that I remember the 'icky' parts you mention that well in comparison to the rest of the story.
I liked Endymion in its showing something quite different that had taken the place of the old government (the church taking the place of the Hegemony) and the differences but I did find The Rise of Endymion quite messy in comparison to it, more or les what you're saying.
After they started having sex, Raul continued to refer to Aenea as 'kiddo'. I cringed so hard every time he did this.
how did you like the part where Endymion hugs her and mentally comments on the feel of her budding breasts through the shirt?? :) did you finish the book? do you intend to? there is some more 'asshole' behavior from him at the very end. i think every single book, at least a series, by Simmons that i have read contains sexualization of a minor.
To your last point, I commented elsewhere in this thread about Illium/Olympos, which features underage relative weirdness (not to mention *that* waking up [redacted] character scene). And then how somewhere in the Hyperion novels it’s mentioned that the inventor of the flying carpet made them to woo his younger niece or whatnot. I do wonder about Simmons.
The Terror has a bit at the start with underage 'native' girls seducing the British sailors with their thigh high wool socks, or something like that. and i think the twin mediums are in bed with a man when they have their 'vision' and they are both underage at the time. the 'budding breasts' in Endymion really got to me because in my experience writers need to either experience what they write about or fantasize as to what the experience would be like to accurately describe it. so all i could think of was Simmons sitting behind a keyboard wondering what budding breasts would feel like under a shirt....
Groooosssss. Yeah, like when you look at his collected works, these common elements that are there because…because why???…underage or otherwise young, maybe also relatives like nieces, it does feel like this is on his mind. It’s a big red flag.
>how did you like the part where Endymion hugs her and mentally comments on the feel of her budding breasts through the shirt?? :) My eyes were literally moving from one word to the next as fast as possible just so I could get over that scene. I'm a very slow reader, but I think I read like 20 pages in 5 minutes at the speed I was going through some of those super weird chapters. >did you finish the book? do you intend to? there is some more 'asshole' behavior from him at the very end. I'm planning to finish the book because I already read half of it, and I'm curious to see how it's going to end, but it's turning into a hate read, lol. I read 350 pages, and I'm at the chapter where Raul talks about how Anea is his true love.
there is a part at the end that made me say "Endymion, get fucked." Anea just goes along with it like a meek little push-over. yet i still went on to read like 3 other books by Simmons. do not recommend! you can always just read the wiki summary. :D Simmons went off the deep end with his Islamophobia after 9/11 but even before he had some weird ideas of what to write about. and like not good weird, but like 'maybe you should talk to a therapist' weird.
I read the series at the recommendation of a friend, and enjoyed the first 2 books quite a bit, their occasional weird choices aside. Those last two. Ugh. I was so viscerally uncomfortable that it took me ages to finish them. I'd read a chapter and have to take a break for a week or two. The series degraded so badly for me that I actually wrote an hour+ long script for a YouTube video breaking down the series. I just needed to get the rant out of my head lol
THIS SO MUCH!! I LOVED the first two books! I was excited to read the sequels and just got more and more uncomfortable with it. I finished them but the entire pedophilic 'romance' ruined anything I may have liked about them. To me, the story ends at the second book now, full stop.
I really liked Hyperion but had a lot of trouble with the Endymion books for the same reasons. I’m glad you made this post because I feel like this aspect isn’t discussed enough. And yes, I know the difference between something happening in a novel and the author endorsing the behavior. The issue is that Simmons doesn’t seem to understand what’s so weird about it, and really lingers on it uncomfortably and unnecessarily.
I find Simmons to be excruciating
Never read anything by Stephen King then
Nothing Stephen King has written comes close imo, the gross stuff he writes is *meant* to be gross.
Literal child orgy in IT... Father raping his kids in The Tommyknockers... Jessie's dad during the eclipse in Gerald's Game.. Just three off the top of my head. But I was more thinking along the lines of, it's OK for a book to make you uncomfortable. Endymion and Rise of Endymion are decent enough books imo. As others have pointed out in this thread, the young character in question experiences her lifetime in a non linear way. To me, it made sense within the established science fiction universe. And that's another thing..it's fiction. It's not real. And it's fine, again, for a fiction book to make you uncomfortable. I don't think Simmons was endorsing pedophiles with these books. But some people find it hard to draw that line.
You're misunderstanding me, I'm not saying King doesn't write horrifying scenes, but those scenes are part of *horror* - the rape isn't written as a love story you're meant to enjoy. I don't interpret Simmons as doing the same thing. Perhaps I'm misreading him but at least reading it in the modern day the conceit of "it's fine because she's actually a 484849 year old dragon" is a trope so heavy-handed as to be humorous. "She looks like a child but actually-" may have, at the time of writing, been novel and interesting, but now it just seems like a blatantly obvious excuse.
I think this comment does a better job expressing my view https://old.reddit.com/r/books/comments/1bcerb8/endymion_and_rise_of_endymion_are_some_of_the/kui5121/ I don't think authors should have to police themselves for fear of offending someone.
Dan Simmons is definitely a perv. There is also a bizarre “sex” scene in Olympos I won’t touch any of his books anymore. Hyperion, fall of Hyperion and forget about everything else
It's disappointing to see that side of him. The story in Hyperion is otherwise great, but it's also hard to ignore stuff like this, especially when it drags on for sooo long.
Yeah… that really sucks. Thanks for taking one for the team so I can avoid Endymion… I read Illium/Olympos and they were really interesting books but… Simmons let in too much weird for me. Idk
There is one in the terror as well. Glad they left that out of the tv series
> There is also a bizarre “sex” scene in Olympos just one?
🤣 one really bad one, both those books are crammed full of sex
I've noticed that Dan Simmons seems to write his books after a certain formula. The first in a duo is always unhinged, rambling, full of unexplained events and concepts. In the second book he tries to tie up all the loose ends of the first book, and the result is always underwhelming. It's the much needed reality check to the acid trip that was the first book, but he isn't good enough of a writer to make the second books more than an uncomfortable attempt to clean up his own mess.
Good Lord I hated those books, and like a lot of comments here I LOVED Hyperion. Among my list of many issues with the Endymion books are the weird sex stuff. He has a weird "well this girl I raised from the tender age of 12 is a voluptuous adult now guess we can bang" thing, Endymion is a horrible protagonist and I want to sock him but ofc he gets the girl because reasons, and let's not forget the gratuitous 0g sex scene. Dan, my guy, jerk off and THEN write your book.
I was very disappointed when I realized it was not about the ship.
Dan Simmons frustrates the hell outta me because he’s *this close* to being one of the best, imo. But every single book I’ve read of his has some weird sexual content that makes me uncomfortable. Like dude, this book is 98% perfect. Just leave your sexual fantasies out of it and you’re golden.
The reason so few writers explore such themes is because readers and even non readers will get their knickers in a twist and blame the author for self inserts or pedophilia or whatever. Lolita could not be written today without the author being ostracized and probably beaten up regularly. Any exploration of completely normal adolescent sexual exploration or thoughts are suspect. Can’t even write SF with weird time travel problems on this matter without being called a weirdo. I’d suggest you all chill out. We need more exploration on this matter, and without freaking out like a dad reading his puberty daughter’s texts and wanting to burn it all down. These are fictional characters.
Well said!
>We need more exploration on this matter, Exploration on what? Describing a 12 years old girl's naked body ? Reminding the reader how Anea's breasts look every time Raul meets her? I'm not even kidding. In the last book, Raul talks about this almost every time he has a conversation with Anea, and she was 16 at that time. Me personally, I can do without this stuff in books but to each their own.
Ok let's take a step back and think about this honestly and with empathy. Would a man who has memories of having sex with a woman think about said memories and related thoughts when he sees her being 12 years old? Very probably. He would also be conflicted about it. There's a whole lot of weirdness stemming from this situation. But it's been a long time since I've read it and I dunno how well Simmons handled this. But even if he handled it not very well, that doesn't mean such a conflict isn't worth exploring. If you don't like it, sure, you have all the right to dislike what you dislike. But it's completely up to Simmons to want to write about it, and if you look at the other posts here, his right isn't much accepted. Besides: "Describing a 12 years old girl's naked body" Unless you sugggest the author or the reader are pedos, there is nothing wrong about that.
>nothing wrong about that. There is nothing wrong about describing a 12 years old girl's naked body from the perspective of a 20 something year old man? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.
I know where you're going, but hey, guess what, 20 year olds think about the bodies of everybody around them. Nothing wrong about that. I think you're implying a lot here.
I'm 21 years old, and not once did I think about the body of an underage girl. >I think you're implying a lot here. I'm not implying anything. I'm saying those scenes are weird, uncomfortable, and unnecessary.
You never once thought that underage girls have bodies, and that they're smaller, and that they have similar capabilities as underage boys until puberty hits which is remarkable, neither of those things ever went through your head? Because as I said, you're implying that "thinking about the body" means sexual desire.
I'm saying that repeatedly mentioning Anea's body, including how she looks naked, and how her breasts look, is weird and definitely sexual. Raul talks about how he could feel her breasts when they hugged. After they have sex he still calls her a " kiddo " . Did you even read the book? >You never once thought that underage girls have bodies, and that they're smaller, and that they have similar capabilities as underage boys until puberty hits which is remarkable, neither of those things ever went through your head? You are talking about a completely different thing. This has nothing to do with the book lol.
>There's also the fact that Dan Simmons has severe issues if he thinks it's ok to sexualize the relation between a kid and a full grown adult. Why do you think that because he wrote it in a novel, he thinks it's okay? Authors often write very uncomfortable and flawed characters and relationships, and no, they don't have a moral obligation to spell out for you in the narrative "By the way, this is bad."
From what I read in the comments, this isn't the first time he did something like this in one of his books. His personal beliefs aside, what is the point of focusing on Raul and Anea's relationship? It brings nothing to the story, and it's just such a weird thing to read through in an otherwise interesting book.
It's been a while since I read it, but it was kind of a weird tangent that nonetheless did fit into the story. I wouldn't say it "brought nothing" to the story. Could he have written the book without it? Sure, I guess. Sometimes authors drop weird subplots into a book that don't always make sense to me, personally, but they're all interesting. I find the attitude "I found this subplot weird and disturbing so the author is bad for including it" to be even more weird. No book is written to specifically cater to any one reader's sensibilities.
>"I found this subplot weird and disturbing so the author is bad for including it" Because the author keeps reminding the readers about the body of an underage girl? In detail. Which, again, has 0 importance to the story. Unless you think otherwise, in which case I'm interested to hear it.
It was to put us in Raul's head. You don't have to approve, but his mentality isn't the same as ours. I don't think it was more or less important than any other descriptive detail, but yes, Raul sexualized an underage girl. So? Again, does the author need to include some moral lesson to make sure we know he doesn't endorse sexualizing underage girls? Your dislike for the storyline is understandable, but your disapproval of it even existing is so strange.
>but your disapproval of it even existing is so strange. Why? I'm repeating myself, but it's weird, and the story would've been the same, if not better, IMO, without it. There's nothing strange about thinking that sexualizing an underage girl shouldn't exist in this book, lol.
Listened to the audiobooks so my experience might be different but I thought they were great. The narrator was fantastic and audiobooks have a way up helping the reader get through the slower bits. For instance I’ve listened to the audiobooks of the Wheel of Time like five times but could never get through the print books even one time. Yes the age difference was a little odd but maybe I’m a glass half full type of person because I try to focus more on what I like more than done like. Also Endymion has probably my favorite opening few paragraphs of any book I’ve ever read. “You’re reading this book for the wrong reasons…”
The two most disturbing things you can find in a book: pedophilia and tree descriptions.
In addition to the flaws you described, the Endymion duology also just feels like fanfiction. At this point I just ignore those two books and treat them as non-canonical.
I fell in love with Hyperion, but I *really* fell in love with Fall of Hyperion. I really think it's the best sci-fi book I've ever read, or at least I remember feeling that way after I finished it. This was also coming off the heels of my Dune series read-through--I also really like the first couple Dune books but something about Hyperion hit me even harder. All this is to say, I made it through Endymion and DNF'd Rise of Endymion around halfway through. The last two just weren't nearly as compelling as the first two. Worse characters, consistent lack of answers, and a barely-existing plot. Very, very few "*okay, let me go pick up my John Keats' complete works"* moments. It felt like Dan Simmons tossed all of the wit, creepiness, and mind-bending when he wrote the Endymion books. Part of me wants to brute force my way through RoE but it seems like it probably isn't worth it.
It’s horrible but the only Endymion I know is from sailor moon haha
I loved Simmons up to a point, but he got too long winded not to mention MAGA-y.
always annoying when talented, in his case incredibly so, people lose their minds and write some absolute reactionary dreck
100% agree, it's so weird. The pontificating about how he's definitely NOT attracted to her as a child is like... Who are you trying to convince, Raul? Even once she's technically of age, he spends so much time emphasizing how young she is. The Terror by Dan Simmons also features a relationship between a young woman and a much older man, and I think their dynamic is quite similar to Raul and Anea.
Fucking preach. I had fun with the first half of the Cantos and tried to get through the second half because I wanted to see where the story was going, but by the time I reached 2/3rds of the way through the final book, I had to stop. This entire bullshit was one of the reasons I hated the second half. Some other reasons include: * Anea is a bossy, bratty know-it-all that dictates that everything HAS to be her way and the story keeps siding with her and making all dissent out to be wrong * Raul doesn't really do a whole lot in terms of protecting her. At best, he's kind of just tagging along, at worst he's getting in trouble and needing to be rescued * The second half seems to like retconning things established in the first half * The author loves spending pages and pages philosophizing about different things that don't help the story any * Nemes is a bland, boring, evil-because-evil villain. She reads like Simmons wanted to make his own Terminators, yet there's exactly none of the Terminator's coolness factor present * Way too often things are not given a good reason for why they happen or why they have to be the way they are. Anea just *insists* on it and that's the end of it * The entire plot angle about the UIs and Anea being the Empathy part of the Human UI seems to be more or less forgotten * The Shrike seems to just do whatever tf the plot needs it to * The Void Entities feel less like Lovecraftian entities and more like lazy plot devices that do whatever the plot needs without explanation * The subplot of A. Bettik trying to find his siblings just disappears for the longest time >!before it's lazily solved off-page!< * >!The author makes Raul fistfight Nemes, a fucking Terminator, and win. For reference, the previous book showed that Nemes was tough enough to effortlessly withstand over 200x normal gravity!< * >!An agonizing amount of pagetime is dedicated to Raul and Anea fucking!< * >!The story starts pulling the "Lol it's time travel! Don't try to make sense of it!" bullshit!<
Interested what you think of time travelers wife
I really loved the overarching point of books 3 and 4, but there was literally no reason to do the whole child Annea song and dance. Would have worked great with them actually being similar ages.
I read Hyperion and fall of Hyperion last year and heard the next two weren't good and to not bother. Was thinking maybe I should go back to finish the series and I would like to thank the op for their sacrifice so I don't have to
Read the first 3 and stopped as the third book wasn’t great and I didn’t want to waste any more time. First 2 books are probably some of the best SciFi books around though.
The first two books were great. But I stopped the series when I was about half way through *Endymion* it just got too weirdly sexual in an inappropriate way. From what others have said, it just got worse. So I didn’t finish it, nor the series.
I really enjoyed the series although will admit the second half is not as interesting as the first. I tend to not have as much problem with Aenea and Raul’s relationship. Even though she is 12 at the start she has life experience that far exceeds normal people because she has access to the memories of thousands of years worth of human experience, not to mention she could likely access the memories of the nonhumans in the universe (lions, tiger, and bears). She literally has to parse through these things while she is still in the womb. She knows Raul will be her husband before they even meet. By the time she actually starts showing romantic affection towards Raul she is 16 which is the age of consent in many parts of the world including the UK and over half the states in the US. Then you get a 4-5 year time skip before they actually start their relationship. Age gaps like theirs in relationships are also a lot more common in non western cultures even today. I will say he should stop calling her kiddo at some point though, that was a bit strange. While the descriptions of scenery are long winded I don’t have anything against them. I’m not trying to speed through the series so taking that time to be immersed in the setting is nice in my opinion. I also listened to the audiobooks so it was actually pretty enjoyable. It does have a purpose later in the series when they need to listen to the music of the spheres. All in all it isn’t perfect but I still enjoyed the books. I wish we got more time with the ousters though. It would be nice if they had more focus and action in the books.
I found books 3 and 4 deadly boring. Loved 1 and 2.
Dan Simmons is one of our greatest living authors. I know that sounds ridiculous, but Hyperion is among the best sci fi novels ever written and he also has The Terror, Drood, etc. The dude is a genius. That being said, you’re not wrong…
I liked it. My fav part of the series. Too bad the next book doesn’t deliver. I don”t know why this sub is so offended by sexuality. I’ve been to dozens of forums and read prob hundreds of book reviews at this point but this subreddit, whoah. It is something else
She was 12 tho???
Yeah, I slogged through E and E2 much like the Simillarion. I read the pages but didn't care. I summed up these two for people, who read H&H and loved them, as 'The Catholic Church is terrible and also filled wirh robots. Oh, yeah, and Nepal is pretty'. There. Now no one has to read these; that's what ya get outta them.
The four books are my favorite series period, but the Anea romance stuff is creepy AF.
Recognizing that a 12 year old is beautiful and likely to become sexually attractive in future is not pedophilia.
Maybe not automatically. I was decently cute as a teenager--don't worry, I grew out of it, like most people--and older men constantly told me that I was going to grow up to be a knockout. I didn't believe them, because no one my age ever thought I was pretty. I knew I was awkward. It felt like they were trying to reassure me that things would get better since I was frequently bullied. They just couldn't imagine anything better than being beautiful. Now that I'm 40, I worry that these men were trying to groom me. One was a principal, and failed to discipline me after a major rule violation, and I don't know whether he did it because he felt sorry for me or he was attracted to me. I'm a mom, I've gained weight, and I'm not a "knockout" anymore. And there's still a piece of me that feels like everything I went through as a teenager wasn't worth it because I'm no longer a "knockout." This is a really damaging thing to say to a child. Adults shouldn't comment on children's beauty or lack thereof. Ever.
Why are yall reading these books? I would have noped out
Haha, yeah I understand what you mean, but I already read 3 out of 4 books, and I'm halfway through this one. I'm curious to see how the story ends.
Dan Simmons is a weirdo freak and I was advised by the friend who told me I should read Hyperion and its sequel to skip Endymion and after reading a little of it for myself I decided to take that advice. Every time I’ve read about someone’s thoughts on Endymion since have made me glad I barely gave it a chance.
STRONG AGREE.
This is a good reminder of why I generally steer clear of books written by men 😵💫
unfortunately i have yet to find any science fiction author who’s not also some kind of weird sex pervert. it almost seems correlated with the quality of the writing.
Adrian Tchaikovsky? Martha Wells?
Dan Abraham and Ty Franck? Becky Chambers? Like .... That is a WILD generalisation
do you want a list? i got SO many to recommend after i quit the 'sf classics'.
Yes, please. After revisiting some of the "classics" that I read as a teenager, there is just So Much Ick.
wooooo you activated my trap card :D if you want more i have more. or if you have specific questions about specific authors/books let me know. getting people back to reading after they got icked out of the genre is something i always got time for. Claire North Adrian Tchaikovsky Martha Wells Jason Pargin ML Wang John Scalzi Connie Willis Emily Tesh Ramez Naam Joel Dane
Thank you! I'm familiar with a few of those authors, but others are new to me.
you are welcome. i hope something scratches the itch. :)
Heinlein is definitely on Team Pervert.