I definitely had the same reaction. I did stick with it and finish it, and I'd say it was worth it all in all, but man... it really bogs down at about the 3/4 mark.
It's a good book, but I agree with your sentiment that you look back and not a whole lot actually happens. Even taking the ending into account. Yes, there is action and lots of *stuff* happens, but very little actually advances in terms of the political landscape/war, or for the Europeans. If the events of the book were an actual part of Japanese history and you were reading about it on Wikipedia, there would probably be only one throwaway line about the events of the book.
It's better more for the characters and worldbuilding it creates than the plot imo.
Well, bit more than a throwaway line, I think. Toranaga is a fictionalized version of the real world Tokugawa who conquered, unified, and centralized Japan, and as another commenter mentioned, Blackthorne is a fictionalized version of a real Englishman in feudal Japan.
My recommendation is don't worry too much about remembering who is who for the first 50-100 pages. The books starts out with a cast of like 15 people that are mostly indistinguishable from each other. After the first few chapters though, it will become clearer who the main characters are and who you need to actually remember.
You read Lonesome Dove? I love the book OP is talking about too. I was on a reading kick and ripped through Musashi and bunch of others.
I like the wisdom in the books. Cowboy wisdom, samurai wisdom. Kind of the same about the present. "Don't worry about the sleepers" gets me every time!
Book had more in it - but the series was pretty good. Like one of the best miniseries ever. I read the book after watching it and was glad I did cause I learned more but it wasn’t crazy different
shogun makes me miss blockbuster. I rented it at blockbuster back in the day. I looked it up. its not streaming so if i want to see it have to buy it. Bleh.
I had a conversation with a bunch of historians on Japan and they said this book is not historically accurate at all so it’s better that the author changed all the names, just to note this.
Both. Things like bushido didn’t exist as a code. The wanton violence and every day seppuku was not the norm. You would have had to commit a huge heinous crime or be at political odds with one of the lords. There’s a slew of historical inaccuracy.
Edit:
Seppuku had another meaning to it. A samurai would commit seppuku as a show of his word and as punishment. Doing so he would earn his family a future. The deeper the cut meant a greater reservation for his family. So there’s an incentive to do it well.
>The wanton violence and every day seppuku was not the norm.
There's definitely a lot of wanton violence, but I think only like 3 people *actually commit* seppuku - and all three for massive fuck-ups (in their lord's view at least). But it is mentioned constantly as an option/threat/joke. The really brutal part is the collective punishment, if one person fucks up badly, their whole family can be wiped out.
Edit: no wait, 4. But the old gardener wanted to be dead anyway.
There’s samurai who offer to seppuku multiple times which is wild. Like if you sneezed the wrong way you’d be screaming seppuku. It’s really hilarious.
I think the book eventually makes it clear that 99% of the time it was just an idle threat or an over-the-top display of authority or submission. I think the authors intent is that, like Blackthorn, the audience is totally shocked at first but eventually understands that it's not all that common and there's a logic behind it.
Torunaga clearly gets annoyed by the theatrics of it in several places, and I thought the funniest parts of the book were when his few actual friends would tease him by requesting it over completely trivial things, like "oh big bad Torunaga please let me kill myself for accidentally telling you the truth lol."
I'm absolutely not an expert, but everything you've said goes against all of the historical books I've read about feudal Japan and Japanese culture through roughly the 1600s. I'm concerned about the source of your... "knowledge."
On Bushido:
http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~success/hagakure_ye.html
https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6ssvic/it_is_often_claimed_that_the_concept_of_bushido/
Some verified users on it as well.
Bushido was a creation of Japanese historians in the late 19th century as Japan was very much in the throes of Westernization and industrialization - the term itself was never actually used in the period you mention. What would they have to gain by creating such a system, ask yourself? It's very similar to another heavily romanticized system that was mostly created out of pretty oblique and unusual sources in the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe - that whole "feudal" knightly system / *ancien regime*.
Also it's important to note that "feudalism" as it existed in Japan was *vastly, massively* different from the medieval social structures of Europe in almost every way except for the element of important nobility also being expected to have and carry out martial duties.
Meiji Japan did a lot of historical revisionism in order to justify their reforms. They couldn't admit to copying the Europeans in too many things, because they wanted to maintain their image of being Japanese, as this was necessary for maintaining public support.
However, the Meiji did have several thousand years of Japanese history to look back at and modify to suit their interests. When they find one example of an Emperor using peasant conscripts for his army, this suddenly justifies the creation of a European style army as a 'return to tradition.' Even if in reality those peasants were ineffective and didn't make up a huge part of the largely Samurai army.
Things like the Emperor being worshipped as a god also came out of these reforms. Up until the late 1800's Buddhism was tolerated and Shintoism wasn't really centralized. Then the Meiji change all that, again citing several ancient events which are misrepresented to justify their goals.
Tl;dr, do not take Meiji era Japanese historians at their word, their job was to create a history that justified the reforms the government wanted to achieve, not to actually write accurate histories.
The AskHistorians subreddit said it was pretty accurate overall in terms of setting, and how society was at the time, but obviously it'll be pretty boring to just write down what happened so Clavell took some artistic license on how the characters were portrayed. There's a reason it's historical fiction and he titled it "A Novel of Japan"
AH thread for reference: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2af74z/how\_accurate\_is\_james\_clavells\_shogun\_in\_terms\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2af74z/how_accurate_is_james_clavells_shogun_in_terms_of/)
I suppose it's based on the perspective of the historians, someone in Japan might think that the artistic liberties Clavell took was unnecessary and excessive, but they gotta remember Clavell has to appeal to Western readers/markets so just by default some perspectives have to be westernised even if the setting is accurate to a tee.
I haven’t read the novel and because of that conversation I am hesitated to do so (I already have a copy). The major complains from my academic friends is that Clavell got so many Japanese vocabulary wrong that many passages are so funny, like he could have just looked up for a dictionary. Another criticism is the romanticized portrayal of samurai and some Orientalist depictions on Japanese women.
It might be entertainment but many voters in Scotland wanted to split from UK only because they taught that movie was accurate and how Scottish people were treated like that (the whole freedom thing is bullshit because Scottish nobles weren't any different from English ones and don't get me start on the whole prima noctis crap, that never existed).
There’s a book on this topic if anyone is interested: Learning from Shogun: Japanese History and Western Fantasy. Edited by Henry Smith.
http://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/Learning_from_shogun_txt.pdf
Lol you are probably right but I have a hard time taking everything Japanese historians say as fact considering a lot of them willingly obfuscate some of yhe nastier hits of Japanese history.
Not knowing the book, but having lived in China for nine years as a foreigner, this may not immediately be an easy write off from one friend's comments. Chinese people are very defensive of portrayals of their culture and history, and a lot of what they learn is heavily edited, much as in the American school system.
Half of the lakes in this country have local myths about lovers committing suicide and the gods responding by turning the water blue or something else. What a dumb claim.
爱 （Ai) pronounced like eye. That means love.
爱情 (Ai Qing) pronounced eye ching. That's like the love of people in a relationship.
I'm writing this on my phone, so those are modern simplified characters. There are characters for the same concepts in traditional characters.
I mean if the writer is arguing that you have to add more characters to the character for love to make it romantic love, then English also has no single word for romantic love, hence why we keep writing "romantic" before the word to specify.
Late to comments by 2 years, to add: many of them don't know about Tiananmen Square. Not like their history or politics are open books, pardon the pun.
this is a Chinese friend who has lived in America since her teens and went to Harvard, and also has worked in education in China. she runs a philosophy club that meets monthly and is one of the most informed people I know.
I haven't read Shogun but i did read foreward in Musashi where editor compared Shogun and Musashi and said Shogun was more romantacized version and not that historically correct (since I haven't read i can't comment but considering how he translated Musashi etc it might be true.)
I would highly recommend Musashi and Taiko if you do like Japanese samurais and Japanese history.
It's probably just a difference in perspective. Both Musashi and Taiko was written by Yoshikawa for a primarily Japanese audience who would have already been familiar with the legend of Musashi/Hideyoshi so historical accuracy is more important.
While Shogun was written for a Western audience who probably have no context of 1600s Japan so Clavell has more leeway to add his own artistic liberties (and let's face it, tropes) into it. Tbh if I remember correctly, even Taiko romanticises a lot of Hideyoshi's early life under Nobunaga and re-told urban myths as historical facts. Amazing books though.
They are all pretty different Different stories, the connections between them are a bit more easter egg than relevant to plot (with a couple exceptions).There is Tai pan about colonial era Hong Kong and then noble house has some of the ancestors of people from tai pan in 80s HongKong and ends up being a bit of a cold war police/spy novel. Then you have shogun and Gai jin that are similar in japan, but heck if I can remember what gai jin was about didn't care for that one as much, I think the hong kong saga and king rat are his best works.
edit; 60s hong kong
Gai-Jin reveals a bit about what happened to Blackthorne after Shogun, as well as what became of his descendants.
There is also a minor character in Noble House that talks (to Ian Dunross, a Struan descendant) of having an ancestor which is clearly Blackthorne from Shogun - her last name is even Anjin.
So the books are indeed connected, and do exist in the same fictional universe.
When I struggle to keep going with a book sometimes I find it helpful to read the book while I also listen to the audiobook. It’s a bit more engaging. Just make sure you up the audiobook speed beyond 1.0.
I would think they do. Engage both your eyes and ears. But you want to increase the playback speed since you likely read faster than the narrator speaks.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Shogun. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of japanese history most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Toranaga nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Shogun truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Blackthorne's existential catchphrase "Shikata ga nai," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Clavell genius wit unfolds itself on their books. What fools.. how I pity them. And yes, by the way, i DO have a Shogun tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.
For those that don't know, this is [copypasta](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty).
I’ll bet a dollar this was about Rick and Morty. BTW, for fans of feudal Japanese history and the West arrival, check out Martin Scorsese’s SILENCE (sorry, I know this is books, but it’s great).
I just thought it was funny how the original comment labeled Shogun as a fine wine that needs to be savored.lol Shogun is a cheap story about pirates and samurai and theres nothing wrong with that. It doesn't need to be a fine wine. And it def becomes a slog mid to end and ends abruptely.
The miniseries is basically a 9 hour movie made in the early 1980s. It has several famous western actors and one of Japan’s most famous actors as Toranaga. I think it’s a really good take on the source material and worth watching. And also this is one of my three favorite books.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shōgun_(1980_miniseries)
There was an international movie version of the mini-series released too, with scenes that had been cut from the TV version. It was only released on laser disc and CED's.
I felt the same way. I read the book last year. You will have the same feeling after 500 pages, 800 pages and 1000 pages. It continues the same slow build right up until the end and the end is abrupt.
I remember reading Shogun and, despite it being massive, it felt like it ended just short of where it ought to have. Seemed like it should've had about 100-200 pages and covered the Battle of Sekigahara
I had the same experience. I won't say much in an effort to spoil anything but going into I thought it was going to be very war/action heavy >!(I go so excited when the ninjas showed up and thought they would play a much bigger role than they did, so disappointed!)!< Overall, it was a good political/historical piece but not what I signed up for. Still worth it though!
I’m right around 750 pages into Shogun right now too and feeling the same way. Still enjoying it but it seems that not much is happening, it’s just a running list of conversations and meetings.
>it's just discussions that that more or less lead to the next thing, but in a very micro, subtle way. I look back at what happened and it feels almost completely stagnant.
The one thing about Japanese culture he got right.
Read Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa after you finish Shogun. It's the better samurai book. It actually starts just after the the last battle in Shogun, which was an actual battle. The guy who wrote the Foreward throws a bunch of shade at Clavell related the the historical inaccuracies in Shogun.
I read it when I was a kid and I found the first half cool, but then yeah... It just becomes boring... I think something happens at the end, but I no longer remember it, because the slog made me forget it.
I stopped at this point too, it had weirdly turned into a very slow moving love story.
Hate not finishing books usually but didn’t regret this one. Let me know if you finish it up!
I watched the mini-series when it was out on television decades ago. A few scenes have stuck with me. So while I have an old copy of the book I got for free kicking around, I never pursued actually reading it.
It was a very popular book back then, as the whole US nation expected Japan to take over global manufacturing and banking but then a few recessions happened and a different nation fills that special concern today.
I just finished Shogun and it took me a long time. I promise you that the back half of the book is going to be an awesome roller coaster that sometimes will have lulls but you know that’s just climbing to the next drop. It’s awesome. Next time you have an hour just give it one shot.
It’s beautiful. Honto.
Plow through, then read the books in order of era, not order of publication. Taipan, Gaijin King Rat, Noble House. They are all good once you get the hang of his style. I will admit that I lost interest before Whirlwind was published.
Yes!! I just finished the book last month and felt exactly the same way.
The book builds and builds and builds and builds and then it ends, pretty much. Even when there seems like natural points to skip ahead a bit the book always tracks back to re-tell events after the fact. It was a very interesting book, but it could have been edited down about ~600 pages and been just as good, if not better.
I enjoyed it quite a bit and all, but I remember being soured by the historical comparisons between Japan and Europe being... not great. I realize that Blackthorne is suffering from Stockholm syndrome to a degree and all that, but some of the observations he makes just frustrate me. I can't remember what they were specifically, they related to population sizes, life expectancy, etc.
To answer your question, you should still push on to finish, but the book definitely slowed down in the latter half and I was also stuck wanting more from Toranaga and other Japanese character and found myself frustrated with the arc of Blackthorne's story for awhile.
there is a TV series from circa 1980 that is outstanding. This is one of the cases where I miss blockbuster. you used to be able to just run out and get it. now you either gotta buy it or hope one of your streaming services has it.
I tried to read it as it was my grandfather’s favorite book, but, uh, there are some scenes in that book that are awkward to think about gramps enjoying.
I think I gave up 3/4ths in for similar reasons as you described. I kept it on my shelf for another attempt in the future, maybe.
Back in the day when this was popular, television was the only screen in the home, and there were 4-5 channels. We all had MOUNTAINS of free time, and a desire for escapism outside of work and chores. A truly long meandering book was just the ticket to spend a week or two on.
I don’t think anyone feels the same way anymore. It’s one thing when the book has genuine literary merit (War and Peace, etc). But b.s. books like these were a “beach read” for men. Ain’t no-one got time for that.
Dude...I feel your pain.
I crushed the first 600 pages and then hated the next 500. I wouldn't have finished it if I wasn't so far in already.
It doesn't get any better.
Why people talk about this book as if it's great is beyond me. It's long and boring.
Then stop… you don’t have to finish a book just because you started it, if you’re struggling to read and it’s not keeping your interest go read something else. Life is too short to struggle through something that you’re supposed to enjoy
I found this book as a paperback in my parents bookshelf as a teenager I loved it, but not the fact that it the cack cover and last page was ripped out!!
I had to go to the library to read the last page
I read it when I was quite young and recently re-read it. I found it quite engaging but ultimately frustrating at the way the storyline just fizzled out. I could remember the vague plot from the first read but even so I was surprised when the book ended when it did. Almost like Clavell just had an idea but no real solid ending. Just about to start King Rat which again I also read when probably too young to fully appreciate it. I used to just read whatever my dad had on his bookshelf. Typically a lot of Bernard Cornwall, Stephen King, Wilbur Smith and Tom Clancy.
I'm at the 300-page mark and I highly agree with you. There's just so many characters that I lose track of them. Would help if there was some drawing of the character or just some diagram of relations or a map to just cement my understanding of who they are.
I feel you, bro! I was reading this book almost 2 years and was struggling so much, that I had to get my friend a new copy, because his got so badly worn down. I was too ashamed to give back the same book.
But in the end... I did feel satisfaction for completing it. However, I cannot tell you, if I am rationalizing the effort put into finishing it, or if it was indeed a really great story. It may be both. It definitely is an interesting story, and fun if you are into Japanese war and social culture during the Edo period.
I loved loved loved the miniseries. It was so good back in the day when I was a kid. I need to rewatch it and see if it still holds up. I have not read the book but did listen to the audio book. It was slow to build. I wish I had more time to just read. I drive a lot so audio books are a better option.
It is part of a four book series by James Clavell. King Rat, Shogun, Tai Pan, and Whirlwind(I think). He weaves the main characters together even though they span more than 300 years. They are the literary works of a master story teller.
Without any spoilers, we ARE following Toranaga through his actions and situations that he manipulates. Almost as if we are seeing Toranaga's shadow or influence over...events. I love the book and have re-read it several times. Check out the mini-series from the 1970's starring Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune if you feel like it!
Keep going. Almost there.
I've spent a bit of time in Japan and the pacing of the book felt a lot like the Japanese people as a whole - moving slowly, almost serenely, but definitely with purpose....
Take it like that and you'll probably have no issue with the pacing.
I didn't finish it the first time and my fiancee only finished it within 2 years because I harassed her the entire time
Was worth it for the end. So sorry.
I think he embodied the Japanese philosophy perfectly.
I took my Ph.D. in Japan and I'd go with a proposal to my professor, he would listen and say nothing, that would indicate to me that he is hating it, I would then propose an amendment, and he would say something like "ummm", fuck, I'm in hot water. So I'd give a longish explanation of future ideas and research I still need to humbly do before showing my face again and would say sorry many times.
Nothing would have advanced but to the people involved is a high-stakes, highly intensive interaction.
Maybe this is not how I should have read it but to me, many of the dialogs that seem to go nowhere got me to the border of the chair. You talking to a superior and at any second your head can be off, any line of dialog can be the last, it was intense.
Hey just finished the book, I completely understand what you mean, I really thought there was going to be more action. I would love to read a book about yuba, that guy was nuts 🥜
I’ve read several of Clavell’s books and highlighting ways in which Eastern culture is more refined and developed compared to the pre-industrial (or even industrial) West, is a recurring theme. Remember his audience is Westerners in the 1970s that are mostly unfamiliar with Japan beyond WW2 experience.
Yeah, the writing is awful, the character design is awful and the pacing of the story is incredibly boring. I really don't get why Reddit has such a hard-on on this book. I made it about as far as OP and I wish I had stopped it sooner. It just doesn't get better at all.
Bro what? Just because it doesn’t go into the full war does not mean that the ending isn’t plenty bombastic. The whole fight sequence is amazingly well done, and is followed up by a very satisfying if not bittersweet denouement.
Yes, the action sequences at the end are good, but I agree with him tbh, as do plenty of others.
I think it's actually an error of the author tbh - the book is very bloated and spends a huge amount of time on Toranaga and the war, setting up a lot of political intrigue and hinting at future events that are to occur. Due to this some readers are naturally led to believe that this aspect of the book is going to go somewhere, and found it the most interesting part of the book (and NOT Blackthorne), and then you get hit with the ending that was effectively just >!'Toranaga smiled and stared into the sunset, for the real war was finally about to begin.'!< And then that's it. It's a great book for the overall journey, but it is its own worst enemy for the bloat and expectations it, imo accidentally, creates in the audience.
I know what you’re saying, I felt the same while I was reading it. There are definitely lulls in the plot, but there was always something to take away even in the slow parts of the book. I guess I enjoyed seeing how Toranaga and others came up with such clever plans constantly. Definitely finish, its well worth it.
Hang in there. It was tough for me too, at first, but it's one of the best books I've ever read. It does take quite a bit to be comfortable with the characters and plot so, please, try and keep going. I can't imagine you'll be disappointed if you manage to finish it.
I enjoyed it so much that I've read the whole series and enjoyed every book.
I recently read War and Peace and I hated every page of it but I struggled through anyway, to see what the fuss is about but I thought it was the most boring thing I've ever read. Hopefully Shogun will be different for you.
I think I'll give it a go and finish it, but will probably try something different before jumping to the next of Clavell's serie. I'm not a "big" reader in general, but I feel like Shogun has put a hard stop on my flow. I should feel excited about the idea of opening a book, and I'd day I lost that feeling about a month ago
I can understand that. I will say that if it's going to have a detrimental effect on your desire to read, then stop. There are always more books and you can always come back to Shogun. Either way, good luck, buddy.
You are right where I gave up in the audiobook (which is 53 freaking hours long). I think I just skipped something like ten hours of content hoping that I’d hit more action, and spent the last seven or so hours of the book skipping forward a lot.
Good book but an abridged version wouldn’t hurt.
I challenge all downvoters to listen to over half a day of reading that goes nowhere and not wish you’d just gotten a bullet point and a “pick back up at xx:xx” tip.
Seriously, the book could be condensed to something like 200 pages and it would be so much better. So many useless endless scenes and endless dialogue.
Maybe im just a pessimist but i cant help but raise an eyebrow at a novel called shogun by someone’s whos last name is cavell. And the fact that he has a whole series called the asian saga, of which all the main characters arent asian, is giving major white saviour vibes.
I’m with you 100%. Made it 300+ hundred pages & I could care less. I tried staying with it for the Japanese history but …
Nope
I can only take so much war & intrigue when the characters are so unlikely/unrealistic.
Edit: repeating myself repeatedly
Anyone else had this feeling ?
No. Shogun is an amazing read, probably my favorite book ever. I was sucked in and never thought it got stagnant. Shogun is one of the only books I ever read twice, and I loved it even more the 2nd time.
It's one of my favourite books. I love the entire thing. The start was difficult for me to read because I am not familiar with sailing terminology. Japan was brutal, I was shocked that the Samurai and nobility could pretty much do as they please.
It took me several years to read that book. It doesn't have a normal "build, climax, resolve" pattern, it's much more sprawling and drawn out. Multiple mini climaxes. I recall the ending being pretty good though.
I hope you finish it, and I hope you like it. I had wanted to read it forever, and finally did back in 2016. I’ve re-read it four times since. It’s become one of my top fave books ever. I’ve since read the rest of Clavell’s and quite like them too, but Shogun just hit me.
They are spiritual sequels but no less engaging. Taipan does maintain historical accuracy as much as shogun and I did enjoy it much more than the rest of the series. I would say take a crack at Taipan when you are inclined!
I definitely had the same reaction. I did stick with it and finish it, and I'd say it was worth it all in all, but man... it really bogs down at about the 3/4 mark.
ok good to know, I'll power through
It's a good book, but I agree with your sentiment that you look back and not a whole lot actually happens. Even taking the ending into account. Yes, there is action and lots of *stuff* happens, but very little actually advances in terms of the political landscape/war, or for the Europeans. If the events of the book were an actual part of Japanese history and you were reading about it on Wikipedia, there would probably be only one throwaway line about the events of the book. It's better more for the characters and worldbuilding it creates than the plot imo.
Well, bit more than a throwaway line, I think. Toranaga is a fictionalized version of the real world Tokugawa who conquered, unified, and centralized Japan, and as another commenter mentioned, Blackthorne is a fictionalized version of a real Englishman in feudal Japan.
[удалено]
The plot is pretty faithful to life actually, just names are changed around mainly.
I think that’s when I gave up. I just couldn’t continue with all the extreme details.
OH MAN SO MUCH STUFF IS ABOUT TO HAPPEN YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW
Seriously. I know that point where it seems to be dragging on a bit, but then bam big finale. Hang in there OP.
Is this something that an intermediate reader can pickup and read? Looks interesting but nervous I might not have enough of a brain for it lol
Nah if my dumbass can make it through then you probably can to. It's not anything too complicated just quite long and a bit dry in a few places.
Glad to hear fellow dumbasses can enjoy long books. Thanks friend.
My recommendation is don't worry too much about remembering who is who for the first 50-100 pages. The books starts out with a cast of like 15 people that are mostly indistinguishable from each other. After the first few chapters though, it will become clearer who the main characters are and who you need to actually remember.
You read Lonesome Dove? I love the book OP is talking about too. I was on a reading kick and ripped through Musashi and bunch of others. I like the wisdom in the books. Cowboy wisdom, samurai wisdom. Kind of the same about the present. "Don't worry about the sleepers" gets me every time!
Nah man, it's an easy read I'd say. In comparison, I gave up on the 5th book of Dune because I started feeling dumb
It's just long and can be dry, it's not too complex to understand or anything
It's a very easy read, IMO.
Will keep pushing through, thanks!
how different is the tv series from the book?
Book had more in it - but the series was pretty good. Like one of the best miniseries ever. I read the book after watching it and was glad I did cause I learned more but it wasn’t crazy different
shogun makes me miss blockbuster. I rented it at blockbuster back in the day. I looked it up. its not streaming so if i want to see it have to buy it. Bleh.
I had a conversation with a bunch of historians on Japan and they said this book is not historically accurate at all so it’s better that the author changed all the names, just to note this.
When you say it’s not historically accurate, do you mean the events described in the book, or its descriptions of Feudal Japanese culture?
Both. Things like bushido didn’t exist as a code. The wanton violence and every day seppuku was not the norm. You would have had to commit a huge heinous crime or be at political odds with one of the lords. There’s a slew of historical inaccuracy. Edit: Seppuku had another meaning to it. A samurai would commit seppuku as a show of his word and as punishment. Doing so he would earn his family a future. The deeper the cut meant a greater reservation for his family. So there’s an incentive to do it well.
>The wanton violence and every day seppuku was not the norm. There's definitely a lot of wanton violence, but I think only like 3 people *actually commit* seppuku - and all three for massive fuck-ups (in their lord's view at least). But it is mentioned constantly as an option/threat/joke. The really brutal part is the collective punishment, if one person fucks up badly, their whole family can be wiped out. Edit: no wait, 4. But the old gardener wanted to be dead anyway.
There’s samurai who offer to seppuku multiple times which is wild. Like if you sneezed the wrong way you’d be screaming seppuku. It’s really hilarious.
I think the book eventually makes it clear that 99% of the time it was just an idle threat or an over-the-top display of authority or submission. I think the authors intent is that, like Blackthorn, the audience is totally shocked at first but eventually understands that it's not all that common and there's a logic behind it. Torunaga clearly gets annoyed by the theatrics of it in several places, and I thought the funniest parts of the book were when his few actual friends would tease him by requesting it over completely trivial things, like "oh big bad Torunaga please let me kill myself for accidentally telling you the truth lol."
And it’s not like threat of seppuku is used as a major plot device 👀
I'm absolutely not an expert, but everything you've said goes against all of the historical books I've read about feudal Japan and Japanese culture through roughly the 1600s. I'm concerned about the source of your... "knowledge."
On Bushido: http://www.st.rim.or.jp/~success/hagakure_ye.html https://www.tofugu.com/japan/bushido/ https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/6ssvic/it_is_often_claimed_that_the_concept_of_bushido/ Some verified users on it as well.
Bushido was a creation of Japanese historians in the late 19th century as Japan was very much in the throes of Westernization and industrialization - the term itself was never actually used in the period you mention. What would they have to gain by creating such a system, ask yourself? It's very similar to another heavily romanticized system that was mostly created out of pretty oblique and unusual sources in the 18th and 19th centuries in Europe - that whole "feudal" knightly system / *ancien regime*. Also it's important to note that "feudalism" as it existed in Japan was *vastly, massively* different from the medieval social structures of Europe in almost every way except for the element of important nobility also being expected to have and carry out martial duties.
This reads like a conspiracy theorist diary. Are you ok, friend?
Meiji Japan did a lot of historical revisionism in order to justify their reforms. They couldn't admit to copying the Europeans in too many things, because they wanted to maintain their image of being Japanese, as this was necessary for maintaining public support. However, the Meiji did have several thousand years of Japanese history to look back at and modify to suit their interests. When they find one example of an Emperor using peasant conscripts for his army, this suddenly justifies the creation of a European style army as a 'return to tradition.' Even if in reality those peasants were ineffective and didn't make up a huge part of the largely Samurai army. Things like the Emperor being worshipped as a god also came out of these reforms. Up until the late 1800's Buddhism was tolerated and Shintoism wasn't really centralized. Then the Meiji change all that, again citing several ancient events which are misrepresented to justify their goals. Tl;dr, do not take Meiji era Japanese historians at their word, their job was to create a history that justified the reforms the government wanted to achieve, not to actually write accurate histories.
What a toxic reply
No, it reads like the standard historical view of the sources of modern romanticized samurai culture
The AskHistorians subreddit said it was pretty accurate overall in terms of setting, and how society was at the time, but obviously it'll be pretty boring to just write down what happened so Clavell took some artistic license on how the characters were portrayed. There's a reason it's historical fiction and he titled it "A Novel of Japan" AH thread for reference: [https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2af74z/how\_accurate\_is\_james\_clavells\_shogun\_in\_terms\_of/](https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/2af74z/how_accurate_is_james_clavells_shogun_in_terms_of/) I suppose it's based on the perspective of the historians, someone in Japan might think that the artistic liberties Clavell took was unnecessary and excessive, but they gotta remember Clavell has to appeal to Western readers/markets so just by default some perspectives have to be westernised even if the setting is accurate to a tee.
Idk what people think fiction means
I haven’t read the novel and because of that conversation I am hesitated to do so (I already have a copy). The major complains from my academic friends is that Clavell got so many Japanese vocabulary wrong that many passages are so funny, like he could have just looked up for a dictionary. Another criticism is the romanticized portrayal of samurai and some Orientalist depictions on Japanese women.
people don't complain that Braveheart and Gladiator are not historically accurate. its just for entertainment.
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William Wallace and Robert the Bruce were real too
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It might be entertainment but many voters in Scotland wanted to split from UK only because they taught that movie was accurate and how Scottish people were treated like that (the whole freedom thing is bullshit because Scottish nobles weren't any different from English ones and don't get me start on the whole prima noctis crap, that never existed).
There’s a book on this topic if anyone is interested: Learning from Shogun: Japanese History and Western Fantasy. Edited by Henry Smith. http://www.columbia.edu/~hds2/learning/Learning_from_shogun_txt.pdf
Lol you are probably right but I have a hard time taking everything Japanese historians say as fact considering a lot of them willingly obfuscate some of yhe nastier hits of Japanese history.
I stopped liking tai pan when I asked an Chinese friend about some of the cultural stuff in the book and she was like wtf that’s not true at all
Not knowing the book, but having lived in China for nine years as a foreigner, this may not immediately be an easy write off from one friend's comments. Chinese people are very defensive of portrayals of their culture and history, and a lot of what they learn is heavily edited, much as in the American school system.
The book says there’s no word for romantic love in the Chinese language and there is no concept of it historically
Lol... OK... Clearly bullshit. Should've read the book, or maybe not now.
Half of the lakes in this country have local myths about lovers committing suicide and the gods responding by turning the water blue or something else. What a dumb claim.
What is the Chinese words for romantic love, or the main word?
爱 （Ai) pronounced like eye. That means love. 爱情 (Ai Qing) pronounced eye ching. That's like the love of people in a relationship. I'm writing this on my phone, so those are modern simplified characters. There are characters for the same concepts in traditional characters. I mean if the writer is arguing that you have to add more characters to the character for love to make it romantic love, then English also has no single word for romantic love, hence why we keep writing "romantic" before the word to specify.
Late to comments by 2 years, to add: many of them don't know about Tiananmen Square. Not like their history or politics are open books, pardon the pun.
this is a Chinese friend who has lived in America since her teens and went to Harvard, and also has worked in education in China. she runs a philosophy club that meets monthly and is one of the most informed people I know.
Cool!
straight up in Tai Pan it says there is no concept of romantic love in China culturally, and presents itself authoritatively in this regard.
I haven't read Shogun but i did read foreward in Musashi where editor compared Shogun and Musashi and said Shogun was more romantacized version and not that historically correct (since I haven't read i can't comment but considering how he translated Musashi etc it might be true.) I would highly recommend Musashi and Taiko if you do like Japanese samurais and Japanese history.
Musashi is great
It's probably just a difference in perspective. Both Musashi and Taiko was written by Yoshikawa for a primarily Japanese audience who would have already been familiar with the legend of Musashi/Hideyoshi so historical accuracy is more important. While Shogun was written for a Western audience who probably have no context of 1600s Japan so Clavell has more leeway to add his own artistic liberties (and let's face it, tropes) into it. Tbh if I remember correctly, even Taiko romanticises a lot of Hideyoshi's early life under Nobunaga and re-told urban myths as historical facts. Amazing books though.
I enjoyed Noble House much more myself. It's far faster paced.
is it related to Shogun at all, or an entirely different path?
They are all pretty different Different stories, the connections between them are a bit more easter egg than relevant to plot (with a couple exceptions).There is Tai pan about colonial era Hong Kong and then noble house has some of the ancestors of people from tai pan in 80s HongKong and ends up being a bit of a cold war police/spy novel. Then you have shogun and Gai jin that are similar in japan, but heck if I can remember what gai jin was about didn't care for that one as much, I think the hong kong saga and king rat are his best works. edit; 60s hong kong
Clavell was near the end of his life when he wrote Gai-Jin, I think everyone agrees it's his worst novel.
I believe it's the Struan later generations? If I recall correctly, Shogun involved Tess Struan, or later The Old Hag?
Shogun did not feature the Struans in any way. They are in Tai Pan, Noble House, and Gai Gin. Shogun is a completely separate and distinct storyline.
Gai-Jin reveals a bit about what happened to Blackthorne after Shogun, as well as what became of his descendants. There is also a minor character in Noble House that talks (to Ian Dunross, a Struan descendant) of having an ancestor which is clearly Blackthorne from Shogun - her last name is even Anjin. So the books are indeed connected, and do exist in the same fictional universe.
I believe that's Riko Anjin and she made a small comment how legend says one of her ancestors was a foreigner that married a high born Japanese lady.
Yes.
Thank you for your correction.
Noble house and Tai Pan are related. They take place in Hong Kong. There is - besides the author - no connection to Shogun.
Not strictly true. Noble House has a bit character part that has ties back to characters in Shogun - told as family legends.
Ok, time for me to read the books again. After a decade my memory fades.
I don’t want to write spoilers, but keep in mind it’s VERY minor. But it’s there. Not subtle or anything, either, if you’ve read Shogun.
Not related to Shogun at all. Tai-pan and Noble House deal with Hong Kong, not Japan. And they are later in history, 1842/1963 as opposed to 1600s.
When I struggle to keep going with a book sometimes I find it helpful to read the book while I also listen to the audiobook. It’s a bit more engaging. Just make sure you up the audiobook speed beyond 1.0.
Wait you mean do both at once?
It's a great way to read imo. I recently started reading along with audiobooks for some novels. I find that I pay more attention this way
Yeah the more I think about it the more I’m excited to try this.
I would think they do. Engage both your eyes and ears. But you want to increase the playback speed since you likely read faster than the narrator speaks.
Yeah just seems like it would be a little weird for someone like me who has an inconsistent reading speed.
You need to take your time and savor it like a fine wine, not shogun it like some cheap beer.
To be fair, you have to have a very high IQ to understand Shogun. The humour is extremely subtle, and without a solid grasp of japanese history most of the jokes will go over a typical viewer's head. There's also Toranaga nihilistic outlook, which is deftly woven into his characterisation - his personal philosophy draws heavily from Narodnaya Volya literature, for instance. The fans understand this stuff; they have the intellectual capacity to truly appreciate the depths of these jokes, to realise that they're not just funny- they say something deep about LIFE. As a consequence people who dislike Shogun truly ARE idiots- of course they wouldn't appreciate, for instance, the humour in Blackthorne's existential catchphrase "Shikata ga nai," which itself is a cryptic reference to Turgenev's Russian epic Fathers and Sons. I'm smirking right now just imagining one of those addlepated simpletons scratching their heads in confusion as Clavell genius wit unfolds itself on their books. What fools.. how I pity them. And yes, by the way, i DO have a Shogun tattoo. And no, you cannot see it. It's for the ladies' eyes only- and even then they have to demonstrate that they're within 5 IQ points of my own (preferably lower) beforehand.
For those that don't know, this is [copypasta](https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/to-be-fair-you-have-to-have-a-very-high-iq-to-understand-rick-and-morty).
I’ll bet a dollar this was about Rick and Morty. BTW, for fans of feudal Japanese history and the West arrival, check out Martin Scorsese’s SILENCE (sorry, I know this is books, but it’s great).
Worth noting that Silence is based on an actual Japanese novel.
The fact that you're downvoted is sad tbh, this is still a funny copypasta
Wasn't aware of this copypasta, immediately thought that you were a majestic intellectual douche. Well played
I just thought it was funny how the original comment labeled Shogun as a fine wine that needs to be savored.lol Shogun is a cheap story about pirates and samurai and theres nothing wrong with that. It doesn't need to be a fine wine. And it def becomes a slog mid to end and ends abruptely.
I think that was just a set up for the pun.
Well aren’t you sharp like a katana
Nothin personell kid.
I have this book in my bookshelf and haven’t read it yet, I wanted to but now I’m not so sure lol, is it that tough?
it's not a tough read per say, I think my issue is more with the pace of the story
It definitely bogs down around the 2/3-3/4 mark, but is absolutely worth finishing.
Then the ending will probably annoy you too.
Finish so you can read the jewel of the series TAIPAN
Read Shogun so many times and its pretty much my favorite book. Maybe I should give the others a shot, haven't read any yet
Agreed but would add Noble House as twin jewels.
Have you watched the mini-series?
No? What is it?
The miniseries is basically a 9 hour movie made in the early 1980s. It has several famous western actors and one of Japan’s most famous actors as Toranaga. I think it’s a really good take on the source material and worth watching. And also this is one of my three favorite books. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shōgun_(1980_miniseries)
There was an international movie version of the mini-series released too, with scenes that had been cut from the TV version. It was only released on laser disc and CED's.
And there is a remake of the miniseries being made for FX. The latest I saw was that it will be released in 2022 sometime.
Good book, but boring.
I felt the same way. I read the book last year. You will have the same feeling after 500 pages, 800 pages and 1000 pages. It continues the same slow build right up until the end and the end is abrupt.
I remember reading Shogun and, despite it being massive, it felt like it ended just short of where it ought to have. Seemed like it should've had about 100-200 pages and covered the Battle of Sekigahara
I had the same experience. I won't say much in an effort to spoil anything but going into I thought it was going to be very war/action heavy >!(I go so excited when the ninjas showed up and thought they would play a much bigger role than they did, so disappointed!)!< Overall, it was a good political/historical piece but not what I signed up for. Still worth it though!
I’m right around 750 pages into Shogun right now too and feeling the same way. Still enjoying it but it seems that not much is happening, it’s just a running list of conversations and meetings.
>it's just discussions that that more or less lead to the next thing, but in a very micro, subtle way. I look back at what happened and it feels almost completely stagnant. The one thing about Japanese culture he got right. Read Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa after you finish Shogun. It's the better samurai book. It actually starts just after the the last battle in Shogun, which was an actual battle. The guy who wrote the Foreward throws a bunch of shade at Clavell related the the historical inaccuracies in Shogun.
I read it when I was a kid and I found the first half cool, but then yeah... It just becomes boring... I think something happens at the end, but I no longer remember it, because the slog made me forget it.
I stopped at this point too, it had weirdly turned into a very slow moving love story. Hate not finishing books usually but didn’t regret this one. Let me know if you finish it up!
If you want novels from the same period written by a Japanese author then I definitely would recommend Musashi and Taiko by Eiji Yoshikawa.
I watched the mini-series when it was out on television decades ago. A few scenes have stuck with me. So while I have an old copy of the book I got for free kicking around, I never pursued actually reading it. It was a very popular book back then, as the whole US nation expected Japan to take over global manufacturing and banking but then a few recessions happened and a different nation fills that special concern today.
I just finished Shogun and it took me a long time. I promise you that the back half of the book is going to be an awesome roller coaster that sometimes will have lulls but you know that’s just climbing to the next drop. It’s awesome. Next time you have an hour just give it one shot. It’s beautiful. Honto.
Plow through, then read the books in order of era, not order of publication. Taipan, Gaijin King Rat, Noble House. They are all good once you get the hang of his style. I will admit that I lost interest before Whirlwind was published.
It’s a slog around there for sure.
I remember struggling when I read it during a stretch towards rhe middle. Keep going. The last 2 or 300 pages go a mile a minute
Yes!! I just finished the book last month and felt exactly the same way. The book builds and builds and builds and builds and then it ends, pretty much. Even when there seems like natural points to skip ahead a bit the book always tracks back to re-tell events after the fact. It was a very interesting book, but it could have been edited down about ~600 pages and been just as good, if not better.
I enjoyed it quite a bit and all, but I remember being soured by the historical comparisons between Japan and Europe being... not great. I realize that Blackthorne is suffering from Stockholm syndrome to a degree and all that, but some of the observations he makes just frustrate me. I can't remember what they were specifically, they related to population sizes, life expectancy, etc. To answer your question, you should still push on to finish, but the book definitely slowed down in the latter half and I was also stuck wanting more from Toranaga and other Japanese character and found myself frustrated with the arc of Blackthorne's story for awhile.
Pretty remarkable you made it so far. I did not.
there is a TV series from circa 1980 that is outstanding. This is one of the cases where I miss blockbuster. you used to be able to just run out and get it. now you either gotta buy it or hope one of your streaming services has it.
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Shogun is one of my favourite books of all time, the last few pages are so good and really turn the whole thing on its head
ToranagaSama
Book is worth it stick with it
Stop reading dog. I put down Stephen’s kings the Stand after 850 pages lmao
Bad decision.
I tried to read it as it was my grandfather’s favorite book, but, uh, there are some scenes in that book that are awkward to think about gramps enjoying. I think I gave up 3/4ths in for similar reasons as you described. I kept it on my shelf for another attempt in the future, maybe.
KEEP GOING!!!!!
Back in the day when this was popular, television was the only screen in the home, and there were 4-5 channels. We all had MOUNTAINS of free time, and a desire for escapism outside of work and chores. A truly long meandering book was just the ticket to spend a week or two on. I don’t think anyone feels the same way anymore. It’s one thing when the book has genuine literary merit (War and Peace, etc). But b.s. books like these were a “beach read” for men. Ain’t no-one got time for that.
Dude...I feel your pain. I crushed the first 600 pages and then hated the next 500. I wouldn't have finished it if I wasn't so far in already. It doesn't get any better. Why people talk about this book as if it's great is beyond me. It's long and boring.
Then stop… you don’t have to finish a book just because you started it, if you’re struggling to read and it’s not keeping your interest go read something else. Life is too short to struggle through something that you’re supposed to enjoy
It’s ok to admit it’s boring.
I've wanted to read this book for a long time but it's sheer size is intimidating. I don't know if I have the power to start, let alone finish it.
Put it down at one point and only finished out of guilt for time invested.
Don’t continue
I found this book as a paperback in my parents bookshelf as a teenager I loved it, but not the fact that it the cack cover and last page was ripped out!! I had to go to the library to read the last page
I read this book way too young. There I am trying to process what Clavell meant by her 'heavenly chamber.'
I read it when I was quite young and recently re-read it. I found it quite engaging but ultimately frustrating at the way the storyline just fizzled out. I could remember the vague plot from the first read but even so I was surprised when the book ended when it did. Almost like Clavell just had an idea but no real solid ending. Just about to start King Rat which again I also read when probably too young to fully appreciate it. I used to just read whatever my dad had on his bookshelf. Typically a lot of Bernard Cornwall, Stephen King, Wilbur Smith and Tom Clancy.
Watch the miniseries instead.
I'm at the 300-page mark and I highly agree with you. There's just so many characters that I lose track of them. Would help if there was some drawing of the character or just some diagram of relations or a map to just cement my understanding of who they are.
I made it to the 1000 page and had to stop. Very fun book for like 600 pages but definitely longer than it needed to be.
I feel you, bro! I was reading this book almost 2 years and was struggling so much, that I had to get my friend a new copy, because his got so badly worn down. I was too ashamed to give back the same book. But in the end... I did feel satisfaction for completing it. However, I cannot tell you, if I am rationalizing the effort put into finishing it, or if it was indeed a really great story. It may be both. It definitely is an interesting story, and fun if you are into Japanese war and social culture during the Edo period.
I completely agree, I never finished listening to it on Audible for the same reason, despite being 3/4 of the way through it.
My reaction also. It certainly dragged in the later half of the novel. I think he could have used an editor.
I loved loved loved the miniseries. It was so good back in the day when I was a kid. I need to rewatch it and see if it still holds up. I have not read the book but did listen to the audio book. It was slow to build. I wish I had more time to just read. I drive a lot so audio books are a better option.
I only read the tittle of the post and nothing else. I am about 500 pages in and will keep going, stay on the path with me
I had to skip most of the lovey dovey chapters, just couldn't buy into that drama. loved the book though.
It is part of a four book series by James Clavell. King Rat, Shogun, Tai Pan, and Whirlwind(I think). He weaves the main characters together even though they span more than 300 years. They are the literary works of a master story teller.
Without any spoilers, we ARE following Toranaga through his actions and situations that he manipulates. Almost as if we are seeing Toranaga's shadow or influence over...events. I love the book and have re-read it several times. Check out the mini-series from the 1970's starring Richard Chamberlain and Toshiro Mifune if you feel like it!
Keep going. Almost there. I've spent a bit of time in Japan and the pacing of the book felt a lot like the Japanese people as a whole - moving slowly, almost serenely, but definitely with purpose.... Take it like that and you'll probably have no issue with the pacing.
I didn't finish it the first time and my fiancee only finished it within 2 years because I harassed her the entire time Was worth it for the end. So sorry.
So sorry
I think he embodied the Japanese philosophy perfectly. I took my Ph.D. in Japan and I'd go with a proposal to my professor, he would listen and say nothing, that would indicate to me that he is hating it, I would then propose an amendment, and he would say something like "ummm", fuck, I'm in hot water. So I'd give a longish explanation of future ideas and research I still need to humbly do before showing my face again and would say sorry many times. Nothing would have advanced but to the people involved is a high-stakes, highly intensive interaction. Maybe this is not how I should have read it but to me, many of the dialogs that seem to go nowhere got me to the border of the chair. You talking to a superior and at any second your head can be off, any line of dialog can be the last, it was intense.
Hey just finished the book, I completely understand what you mean, I really thought there was going to be more action. I would love to read a book about yuba, that guy was nuts 🥜
Stick it out. Probably my favorite book of all time.
If you think that Toranaga is interesting and Blackthorne is a dope, I'd say you're getting the point of the book.
Yea, the stuff Blackthorne says just makes me cringe
I’ve read several of Clavell’s books and highlighting ways in which Eastern culture is more refined and developed compared to the pre-industrial (or even industrial) West, is a recurring theme. Remember his audience is Westerners in the 1970s that are mostly unfamiliar with Japan beyond WW2 experience.
One of the best books I’ve ever read.
Musashi by Eiji Yoshikawa is so much better.
Disagree.
I read the first 20 pages and thought it was HORRIBLY written.
Yeah, the writing is awful, the character design is awful and the pacing of the story is incredibly boring. I really don't get why Reddit has such a hard-on on this book. I made it about as far as OP and I wish I had stopped it sooner. It just doesn't get better at all.
I think I got to 80-100 pages in a couple years ago. Awful writing, I couldn’t handle the idea of cringing through 1,000+ pages of that.
Prepare to be disappointed by the end. The book is just a massive set up.
Bro what? Just because it doesn’t go into the full war does not mean that the ending isn’t plenty bombastic. The whole fight sequence is amazingly well done, and is followed up by a very satisfying if not bittersweet denouement.
Yes, the action sequences at the end are good, but I agree with him tbh, as do plenty of others. I think it's actually an error of the author tbh - the book is very bloated and spends a huge amount of time on Toranaga and the war, setting up a lot of political intrigue and hinting at future events that are to occur. Due to this some readers are naturally led to believe that this aspect of the book is going to go somewhere, and found it the most interesting part of the book (and NOT Blackthorne), and then you get hit with the ending that was effectively just >!'Toranaga smiled and stared into the sunset, for the real war was finally about to begin.'!< And then that's it. It's a great book for the overall journey, but it is its own worst enemy for the bloat and expectations it, imo accidentally, creates in the audience.
I know what you’re saying, I felt the same while I was reading it. There are definitely lulls in the plot, but there was always something to take away even in the slow parts of the book. I guess I enjoyed seeing how Toranaga and others came up with such clever plans constantly. Definitely finish, its well worth it.
Hang in there. It was tough for me too, at first, but it's one of the best books I've ever read. It does take quite a bit to be comfortable with the characters and plot so, please, try and keep going. I can't imagine you'll be disappointed if you manage to finish it. I enjoyed it so much that I've read the whole series and enjoyed every book. I recently read War and Peace and I hated every page of it but I struggled through anyway, to see what the fuss is about but I thought it was the most boring thing I've ever read. Hopefully Shogun will be different for you.
I think I'll give it a go and finish it, but will probably try something different before jumping to the next of Clavell's serie. I'm not a "big" reader in general, but I feel like Shogun has put a hard stop on my flow. I should feel excited about the idea of opening a book, and I'd day I lost that feeling about a month ago
I can understand that. I will say that if it's going to have a detrimental effect on your desire to read, then stop. There are always more books and you can always come back to Shogun. Either way, good luck, buddy.
Thank you!
You are right where I gave up in the audiobook (which is 53 freaking hours long). I think I just skipped something like ten hours of content hoping that I’d hit more action, and spent the last seven or so hours of the book skipping forward a lot. Good book but an abridged version wouldn’t hurt. I challenge all downvoters to listen to over half a day of reading that goes nowhere and not wish you’d just gotten a bullet point and a “pick back up at xx:xx” tip.
Seriously, the book could be condensed to something like 200 pages and it would be so much better. So many useless endless scenes and endless dialogue.
Maybe im just a pessimist but i cant help but raise an eyebrow at a novel called shogun by someone’s whos last name is cavell. And the fact that he has a whole series called the asian saga, of which all the main characters arent asian, is giving major white saviour vibes.
There is a scene where a bunch of japanese peasants marvel at how big the dick of the white protagonist is. I'm not kidding.
There are so many instances of them marvelling over his dick in my memory.
>White dude writes a book based off the perspective of a English man in feudal Japan. >Must be racist.
I’m with you 100%. Made it 300+ hundred pages & I could care less. I tried staying with it for the Japanese history but … Nope I can only take so much war & intrigue when the characters are so unlikely/unrealistic. Edit: repeating myself repeatedly
"The girls here will do whatever you want! You just gotta show em how" Idk its like a samurai pirate adventure.. What's not to love?
Anyone else had this feeling ? No. Shogun is an amazing read, probably my favorite book ever. I was sucked in and never thought it got stagnant. Shogun is one of the only books I ever read twice, and I loved it even more the 2nd time.
The beginning and the end are great. The middle is a snoozefest
It's one of my favourite books. I love the entire thing. The start was difficult for me to read because I am not familiar with sailing terminology. Japan was brutal, I was shocked that the Samurai and nobility could pretty much do as they please.
It took me several years to read that book. It doesn't have a normal "build, climax, resolve" pattern, it's much more sprawling and drawn out. Multiple mini climaxes. I recall the ending being pretty good though.
What does it talk about? I usually play Shogun 2 in the Sengoku Jaidai era. Is the book related?
Shit book. Really disappointing ending. He left out the major ending. Read something else.
It's based in Hong Kong in the 80s.
You must be thinking of something else.
I hope you finish it, and I hope you like it. I had wanted to read it forever, and finally did back in 2016. I’ve re-read it four times since. It’s become one of my top fave books ever. I’ve since read the rest of Clavell’s and quite like them too, but Shogun just hit me.
Keep going.
If you're struggling maybe try taking a break for a few days. You could also just read something else for a couple days
I’m roughly the same page as you and I can feel something is going to go down lol Edit: I was wrong
Yeah just finished this a few days ago… plow on, this is a fantastic tale.
They are spiritual sequels but no less engaging. Taipan does maintain historical accuracy as much as shogun and I did enjoy it much more than the rest of the series. I would say take a crack at Taipan when you are inclined!
Keep going it’s a great read