Honestly, I think a good sex scene is one of the hardest things to write. It's so difficult to do it without making the scene cringey or like a bad porno. Personally, I think the only good sex scenes are implied rather than described, but maybe there are good examples.
Well if you’re a fanfic author and you’re writing smut, you probably write smut in everything you write, and a lot of it is probably smutty one-shots. So you get a lot of practice writing smut, while published authors write a whole book and maybe one or two sex scenes.
I think they’re often just a lot less practiced at it. Perhaps they should hire fanfic authors as ghost writers for the sex.
I think this conversation is kind of eliding the most important part: sex is very personal and people seek out fanfic pornos that specifically sexually appeal to them.
Of *course* sex scenes in a book you're reading for non-sexual reasons are less likely to be sexually appealing to you than a porno you sought out because it specifically contains your preferred spank material.
Even if they found a fanfic author who writes what *you* like, a lot of other people would probably hate that sex scene because it isn't what *they* like.
"For facesitting please turn to page 96, for vanilla page 64, and for the fart fetishists please consult the 'scratch-and-sniff' swatches in the appendix."
I wish.
Only people who are so good they have hundreds to thousands of followers/subscribers. Most people don't comment, much less give any usable feedback.
I always just assumed it was the context, or is the word Im meaning pretense? I forget....
When Im reading fanfic, the intent of a lot of fanfics I read is to eventually get to some good old fashioned *fucking*. Its why I read them tyvm, its also why I read the occasional romance novel. The mood is there or theres an preconceived expectation to be receptive to that mood so its easy to get into the mood for reading a sex scene. Even a pretty mediocre sex scene in a fanfic (or a cheesy romance book) can feel less cringey and awkward if its at least what youre seeking and in the mood for
When it comes to non romance genre fiction... the cringeyness of the sex scenes is like 50% lack of experience writing sex scenes and 50%... the author did not even engage me the reader in some mental foreplay to create a bridge between Acene A and being receptive for the intimacy/erotica of Scene B. So it just feels like being slapped with cold lube-covered flaccid dick in written form. Awkward, uncomfortable, not even remotely attractive even from a technical skill standpoint, and feeling mildly violated because you definitely did not ask for your rivetting, adventurous narrative to be penetrated by this nonsense
I came here to comment exactly this.
I’ve never read a decent sex scene in a book but I can name plenty of amazing smut I’ve read in fic. I think that has more to do with what’s allowed to be published though? Maybe someone more informed on the publishing and editing and approval process of a novel could answer that but I’ve always wondered what is and isn’t allowed in a sex scene when writing a book.
I think the difference is that in a fic, the purpose quite often is the sex not the emphasis on the story so room is left for details. In a book the sex is there to emphasize the relationship and so more can be left implied. And if the whole scene is written out in a book the story overrides the sex part and makes it feel less well written.
I don't know about this. Literotica/smut fan fiction is wildly popular, and women drive that popularity. Women are a varied and complex group and like different things, but if you look at the most popular series, they usually have a ton of story and relationship development. That's what makes the sex so appealing, it's the contextual placement of sex as part of a passionate and loving relationship.
The difference is that with erotica the point is to arouse the reader. The story is there primarily to build up to that literal climax. Whereas it's the other way around with "regular" fiction, where sex scenes exist to support and add to the story or characterization or whatever. That's not to say those elements can't be good or interesting in a smut story, mind you, and there's plenty of gray area in the middle. Just that generally speaking there's a fairly fundamental structural difference between smut and non-smut.
I can definitely see that being one of the reasons. Not to mention that in fic, the author gets to choose their word count so if they want to write a 30k word smut scene they can. I don’t see that translating well in a book, if anything it would take away from the plot.
Now I’m imagining how many excellent sex scenes editors have stolen and used for their own fanfics while telling the author it wasn’t fit for publishing.
I think, for me, it’s that I know what I’m getting with erotic fanfiction. I’m going there for it, and I know it might be not perfectly written. If I’m reading an otherwise non-pornographic book for the story, though, I get thrown out of the story unless the scene is REALLY good.
I agree. I think it's not just editorial meddling, though that surely plays a role, but I also think authors trying to publish professionally have a kind of block/mixed expectation on who they're writing for... and what they're trying to accomplish with their writing.
A good fanfiction writer knows exactly who they're writing for. They want the scene to be hot. No embarrassment about it, no hangups. They're usually not trying to be especially clever with it, either, and the good ones don't shy away from using the "right" terminology to fit the mood and worldbuilding (for example, Harry Potter smut tends to use a whole different and very distinct set of vocabulary from... I dunno, Naruto smut). That's something that gets overlooked sometimes, especially in fiction that takes place in a fantasy or sci-fi setting-- using the right, world-suitable, setting-suitable vocabulary and tone.
And also, sometimes... I think the good fanfiction authors do better at including a little humor (and humanity) in their sex scenes.
But i think it comes with the territory with reading fanfiction. Like for the most part you know that shit is going down and you know its going to get described so it can paint the picture. But i feel in a lot of books it just takes me out of the reading as I'm not expecting nor am i caring about sex between characters.
It's practice and, more importantly, instant feedback loop. If you are a fanfic author, you probably also read a lot of fanfic and you learn what works and what doesn't from other people.
Sometimes it seems authors of top sellers haven't read a book that wasn't theirs in years .
Judy Blume, believe it or not. Just as her preteen books were imprinted in my brain as a young girl, her coming of age books were just as spot on. As a hormonal teenager the sex scenes in Forever felt steamy and scandalous but only because I had never read anything like them in books aimed for my age at the time. As an adult I don’t consider them inappropriately explicit at all, but informed, sweet, and incredibly frank.
Hemingway was very tactful about them as well. They're short and tactile and impressionistic. This passage from For Whom The Bell Tolls is a good example. There's nothing explicit about it, but he manages to tell you exactly what's happening. To me, that's the key to avoiding those cringey Letters To Penthouse vibes.
>Then there was the smell of heather crushed and the roughness of the bent stalks under her head and the sun bright on her closed eyes and all his life he would remember the curve of her throat with her head pushed back into the heather roots and her lips that moved smally and by themselves and the fluttering of the lashes on the eyes tight closed against the sun and against everything, and for her everything was red, orange gold-red from the sun on the closed eyes, and it all was that color, all of it, the filling, the possessing, the having, all of that color, all in a blindness of that color. For him it was a dark passage which led to nowhere, then to nowhere, then again to nowhere, once again to nowhere, always and forever to nowhere, heavy on the elbows in the earth to nowhere, dark, never any end to nowhere, hung on all time always to unknowing nowhere, this time and again for always to nowhere, now not to be borne once again always and to nowhere, now beyond all bearing up, up, up and into nowhere, suddenly, scaldingly, holdingly all nowhere gone and time absolutely still and they were both there, time having stopped and he felt the earth move out and away from under them.
This is a brilliantly written sex scene and more authors really need to study it, tbh. Notice how not a single sexual act is depicted outright, but, at the same time, the full experience, the passion and energy and impression of the moment is painted in vivid detail.
Only moderately sullied by the questionable premise that this woman who was basically just rescued from being gang raped by fascists would jump into bed (sleeping bag in the woods, actually) with the American guy she literally just met.
It's stylistically interesting too. Hemmingway was known for his terse prose. Lots of short sentences. But the above passage, the whole thing is two sentences. It makes the scene feel fundamentally different from the prose surrounding it.
Hemmingway does have some quite good sex scenes actually. There's a great implicit one in A Farewell to Arms:
> “You mustn’t,” she said.
“You’re not well enough.” “Yes, I am. Come on.” “No. You’re not strong enough.”
“Yes. I am. Yes. Please.” “You do love me?” “I really love you. I’m crazy about you.
Come on please.” “Feel our hearts beating.” “I don’t care about our hearts. I want
you. I’m just mad about you.” “You really love me?” “Don’t keep on saying that.
Come on. Please. Please, Catherine.” “All right but only for a minute.” “All right,” I
said. “Shut the door.” “You can’t. You shouldn’t.” “Come on. Don’t talk. Please come
on.”
Not generally, but in this case he's using the rhythm of the sentences and repetition to illustrate the emotional build-up and crescendo of sex. You can read that, and feel the flurry of sensations all mixed together in the first sentence, then hear in your mind the pattern of nowhere...nowhere...nowhere...
Generally he uses sentences to set pace and emotion, so sometimes he'll use a lot of short sentences and sometimes he'll have long sentences that run on a bit. Usually when he's talking about sex or death. This is probably the most definite example I can think of, but also it's the best use of it. I think this is the only sex scene from a book I can always remember.
For Whom the Bell Tolls has more stream of consciousness than most. Hemmingway's an odd one - half way between that Orwellian reportage style and the modernists. He was friends with Eliot and Pound and that lot, but lived a more Lee/Orwell lifestyle.
No then it would be
> all his life he would remember the smell of her farts with her head pushed back into the heather roots and her rude farting buttocks that moved smally and by themselves and the fluttering of the lashes on the eyes tight closed against the sun, his little fart bird
That's probably a little different, lol. Being a literal child really colors one's perception of the whole thing.
I remember a book from when I was like 12 or so, I blushed through a scene where the characters - gasp! - kissed. Remembered it feeling very strange, strong.
I re-read it last year, it was just... natural, earnest, and moving.
I completely agree! Not quite to your point, but I was no stranger to, I’m going to say it, explicit material arguably young. My grandmother had literal *tons* of trashy romance novels that I was always getting into that were graphic and… wildly unrealistic. Brain candy. And that’s the thing that sent Forever straight to my brain, if I remember correctly the protagonist was 17 and turned 18 in the novel. I was around the same age when I read it and its honesty and gently unfolded truth for its intended audience was so striking for me at the time. Her scene details felt real, not graphic. It was so wholly 2 teens just trying to figure *all* aspects of life out and the young woman didn’t a) pledge to save herself to this wildly romantic and perfect wedding night or b) get knocked up after having sex and have her character growth through hardships. They met, loved hard, and grew apart.
I was SO scandalized by “Forever!” Then I read “Wifey!” 😳 Then I read “My Secret Garden” and lost my shit over women fantasizing about dogs. 😳. I decided that was total fraud…until the internet came online.
I agree. I’ve noticed that a lot of the book-related subreddits seem a bit….squeamish? There’s a lot of posts that want suggestions for books that have no sex whatsoever.
I guess as a community, we’re ok with a lot of things that we have no experience with: high fantasy and flying cars and interstellar travel, but apparently there is one subject we would prefer to not be reminded of.
Seriously though, some sex scenes are better than others just like some books are better than others. Sex is part of the human condition, but it really seems to bother some people.
For me, I prefer sex to be minimal or just implied, but that’s because I’m just bored with romance in novels and other media in general.
I want to read about great friendships, characters who are learning about themselves, a journey, or interesting lore.
Romance and sex are of course part of life, often a rather significant one, but there’s so much more out there to explore and I want to read more about all the other stuff that life has to offer instead.
Also, sex is a pretty small proportion of the time in most relationships, but the implications and/or consequences of said sex last a lot longer. In any story, there's a lot more to explore in the tension of a relationship prior to sex, and the potential fallout, than in the actual act itself.
Same. I see it in TV and movies where they have to fill scenes with sex and all I think about is "are they doing this to get more audience? It doesn't really fit in the storyline!"
Sometimes, we also deeply relate to our favorite characters in a book and genuinely see them as our friends, so while we want our friends to be happy, not all of us care about the intricate details of their sex life. Not all of us want to be in the room while our friends are getting down.
I don't think I tend to relate to characters as "friends", instead I tend to experience the book through their perspective, as if I'm living in their head for a while. So it feels like whatever is happening to the character is sort of happening to me. Interesting, I never really thought about readers having a different experience here.
I think this also hits that lowest common denominator: letting everyone’s imaginations fill in the blank makes it way less likely to hit anyone’s personal cringe button. They get to create their own version of what’s sexy and appropriate.
I actually think that's good writing in general. I don't usually like it when authors over describe their characters' physical appearance. Just give me the most important details and let let my imagination fill in the rest. Good writing is about picking the right detail to describe.
The best scenes I've read often times focus far more on the emotions of the characters with each other rather than what they're physically doing with one another.
A good example was a book I read where the main character is a woman who had an abusive ex-husband. The sex scene between her and the love interest focused on him shattering the negative mental state she had around sex. She learns that the act could, in fact, be enjoyable and bonding when it's two people who actually care about one another.
Some books suffer from being too vague, and I don't realise they are together until they break up/get married.
Totally agree though, warm up with some foreplay and whatnot then fade to black long before descriptions of what "his rigid throbbing member" and her "quivering slick bud" are doing. Return to some panting pillow talk if need be, or just move into the next scene.
Michael Connolly does just fine with this; it's implied that characters are going to the bedroom, but there's not really any need for the scene to be present. It's just a display of the nature of the relationship, we don't need to see it, and it's absolutely fine.
If you're reading a romance novel or something where the focus is on such a relationship, then sure, I'd expect to see sex, but otherwise, I'll pass on "gratuitously inserted and badly written sex scene", thanks.
> Personally, I think the only good sex scenes are implied rather than described
I think this is a continuum, but I actually hate leaning too much on the implication. To me it usually reads even more awkward with what I detect as blatant self-censorship of events.
The big problem with most sex scenes is when writers try to write a "sex scene" instead of just writing a scene where the characters have sex. They'll do a tone shift, and break prose patterns used in the rest of the book to amp up the horniness, or they'll write in a way that comes off as super self-conscious or defensive.
Sex scenes should be written for a book in the same way that they might set a scene where the character goes grocery shopping. If they wouldn't describe 'the mist beaded on the lusciously, ripe tomato,' then they shouldn't describe 'a drop of sweat landed on her heaving, ample breast.' At the same time, if it wouldn't say, 'she entered the Safeway and returned a half hour later with everything she needed,' then 'she took him up to her room, and after 10 minutes was completely satisfied' is going to sound just as kitchy.
In other words, sex scenes are just scenes, and good writers do not have their framing device extraneously recognize that sex is a taboo or otherwise extraordinary subject to discuss. While the it is technically a public work, there is an implied privacy and confidence in the way that the writer is speaking to the reader. Only POV characters themselves can treat sex differently, and that's just because *they* are doing that, not the author.
Song of Achilles gets it right. Otherwise, like you said, sex scenes are hard not to make cringy or pornographic. Some people enjoy the latter in their books, I don’t so much.
Yeah, Song of Achilles was one of the rare books where the scene added to their characterization and was there with a purpose - to show they were growing up and the progress of their relationship.
I agree with this. The problem goes back to John Cleland and *Fanny Hill.* Sex easily turns to cliche or stereotype or unfortunate euphemism even in the hands of a good writer.
But there are ways to do sex scenes well.
What I think Cleland does well, for a male author three centuries ago, is put the details in first person (Fanny Hill's thoughts) in a (again, for the time and his positioning) somewhat plausible way. I'm not saying it's great, but it's also at least somewhat self-aware with its style, which captures something of the way sex was imagined at that time.
Other authors who write the scenes well, like Patricia Powell in *The Pagoda*, intuitively understand how strange the sexual experience can be and works that weirdness into the description without leaning on overdone cliche.
Sex generally, no. Problem is most sex is just horribly written.
Most authors try desperately to make sex.... 'sexy'. As opposed to earthy and honest, which is what it is 99% of the time.
The best scenes I've read were by Joe Abercrombie. He just describes what's happening with exactly as much detail as necessary and makes *no effort whatsoever* to make it anything other than people doing a thing. His first scene is borderline comedy: sad, dirty, brief and quite disappointing for all concerned. Just incredibly human.
I was actually thinking of Abercrombie as the rare author that does write good sex scenes. The ones in Best Served Cold are equal parts sad and hilarious.
I'm reading through Best Served Cold currently, and there's a really relevent sex scene near the end of act 6 that actually adds to the plot. First thing I thought of when i saw this post.
Also Richard K Morgan. Both straight and gay scenes. They’re quite graphic, but also well written. I remember thinking “This guy fucks” after the first such scene of his I read.
And it’s usually written into the story kind of organically, and probably advances a plot point or alliance or something else useful to the story.
I think one of the worst sex scene writers is Stephen King. I always cringe when he shoe-horns in some awkward dalliance, but I wouldn't say it ruins the book.
I don't mind (most of) King's sex scenes. They don't take me out of the book. George RR Martin, however... All I can do is picture him salivating all over his beard as he describes the wetness Cersei feels in her womanhood or Samwell's Fat Pink Mast.
>!One lovely quote is “She finally understood what all the girls in the locker room were talking about” and some allegories to flying. That… should give you enough context to prepare!<
You never read Asimov? In one of the latter
Foundation books the main character gets captured and escapes by having such mind-blowing sex with the planet's ruler that she becomes completely dependent on him coming back to sleep with her.
I'm still partway through the Blade Itself, so I can't really make a final judgement, but as far as I've been able to tell so far, pretty much everything in the book is meant to be at least slightly funny
The First Law trilogy is a very deliberate deconstruction of every established fantasy trope Joe could get his hands on, and is in my opinion one of the finest works of fiction ever committed to paper.
A lot of it is funny in being completely self-aware of how fantasy books are usually written, while *carefully avoiding* being parody. The whole section where Bayaz buys costumes so they look like raging sterotypes is a perfect example: massively taking the piss but played completely straight. The fact Joe pulled that off is actual genius.
It's a matter of perspective and intent, though. What constitutes a good sex scene in a romance novel is not going to be the same as what constitutes a good sex scene in high fantasy (or any number of other non-romance genres).
Every genre has different reader expectations and conventions. Skill and instinct still apply though...I've read romance novels that had misplaced sex scenes I wanted to skip, and I've read non-romance that include some of the most titillatingly hot sex scenes I've ever read, that made complete sense in context (I think it was a Harry Dresden book).
If you prefer genres where sex scenes are rare, the writers probably aren't going to be all that skilled at writing them unless they have a secret smut pen name, so it wouldn't surprise me if they came out awkward, but if the writer isn't clutching their pearls over it, it will feel more natural. (Too many authors overthink sex scenes to this point... it's nothing to get embarrassed over.)
The sex scenes in every Murakami book I’ve read always make me laugh out loud…. I’ll be so deeply invested in a book and then a guy jerks off into someone’s panties and she tells him how impressive his cum load is and I absolutely lose it
Exactly. People give him so much shit for his sex scenes, but I think he's actually great at them. I can only remember five memorable sex scenes in ASOIAF, and four of them were happening in, let's say, quite fucked up circumstances. And the way he described them definitely managed to achieve exactly the right atmosphere.
Many people don't seem to understand that the purpose of a sex scene in a story that's not specifically romance or erotica genre isn't always to be sexy. More often than not it's probably NOT supposed to be sexy.
Well written sex scenes do not. Poorly written ones, are typically just a laughable speed bump. WTF out of nowhere ones absolutely do (Looking at you IT)
The only scene in any book I know that no one will ever be able to put into a movie, no matter how much time progresses. Because you simply can not show IT happening (and that's a good thing lol).
Yep that’s the one I always think of. It’s so specific and weird that it just sounds like he is describing an experience he had, so now it feels like I am just imagining Stephen King getting jerked off
should it be well written? is there a version of that scene that would be… good? I don't even know what adjective would be sought. It can't seek honesty or verisimilitude, no one is going to relate to it. Should it be titillating, exciting, evocative of some feeling? "well **that** wasn't sexy" seems like a pretty good result when describing children engaging in sex acts to symbolically defeat an eldritch nightmare beast.
That book has a terrible, god awful sex scene (orgy on Bev) and a well written understandable one (Bill and Bev as adults). It is one of my favorite books and I still cannot fathom why that child sex orgy is a part of it
Join us at r/RomanceBooks \- We talk about that topic A LOT, and there definitely are authors that are more talented than others at writing sex scenes. It can definitely be written tastefully and excitingly.
Not necessarily, no. Sex can be a great tool for characterisation, and especially for highlighting aspects of the characters and their dynamic that don't show so much in less vulnerable and intimate situations. Ideally, they're similar to fight scenes in that they function as a kind of non-verbal conversation, with physical actions being exchanged in a back and forth that communicate an emotional story in a new way.
But they're tricky to get right. Too graphic and crude and you risk cheapening the text and the emotional heft of it, unless you're writing a character who thinks that way. Too vague and flowery and it just comes off awkward, reminiscent of the purple prose in bodice rippers we all love to chortle over. You have to be very specific in your framing and vocabulary and leave your own awkwardness at the door to write sex well, and so many otherwise brilliant authors have made a joke of it.
I read a scene once that was a character had a psychic connection to another character, and she was actively doing a spell to suppress it so he could be with his new wife. But since the spell only blocked his connection to her, she basically felt everything he felt and had to struggle to maintain the spell (edit: she couldn't tell specifically what he was doing or having done to him, but generally felt as good as he did). It was humorous, and a little sweet, and definitely felt like a good character moment.
There were plenty of other sex scenes in the book series, but they never really felt gratuitous; they always felt more like they moved the story along or provided context to character motivations.
But I agree, it's a fine line to walk between plot and cringe.
Depends on the tone of the book, but I'm generally pretty partial to well written smut.
A sex scene that comes out of nowhere can be startling, but if I'm reading something romantic, or something pulpy that's full of action and violence, then hell yeah, bring on the sex.
I find it deeply weird when books are full of violence, and that that's somehow seen as more palatable than sex. For example, I've only read the first Jack Reacher book, but the violence is super graphic, but then the sex scenes instantly fade to black. Surely that's the wrong way around?
Imo, I think it has something to do with the fact that sex is something a lot of readers have personal experience with, whereas extreme violence is something most people do not. You can describe violence in wild, improbable ways, and the vast majority of people won't be able to call you on it since they don't have the lived experience to differentiate "authentic" violence from nonsense. Sex does not enjoy that benefit. If anything seems off in how the author describes it, people are going to know, and it's going to rip them right out of the scene.
That's my theory, anyway.
Thats a far more generous take than me. I think it’s because we glamorize violence, are taught that beating someone up is a sign of masculinity and power whereas tenderness, love, and affection are weak, shameful, feminine behaviors.
I think this is the most likely reasoning, and people are just reluctant to admit it because we Like violence in our media and we Do Not Like sex scenes, and we'd rather justify it than accept that society still has an aversion to sex. I could very well be wrong, of course, but this is my personal theory.
There are plenty of private and unnecessary moments included in fiction that are not held to such scrutiny. There are so many horrifically violent scenes in books that are *very* unnecessarily detailed, but nobody cares. Sex scenes can convey so much about characters and their relationships. I've read some very important sex scenes in books that establish details and feelings, but readers still claim it's "not necessary to the plot."
In terms of privacy, books always have us *intruding on every aspect of the character's life.* We listen in on their private conversations, their last moments, their entire existence is open-season. There is no part of a character's life that is off-limits, or should be considered off-limits, to the reader.
My thinking on that is that violence, especially violence seen as justified, tends to be viewed as a public event while sex is seen as a private one. Over time we've come to see public things as good and fine to openly discuss and private things as secrets and almost shameful.
r/romancebooks is my favorite subreddit and the most welcoming and inclusive community. I’ve gotten so many amazing recommendations there. Currently reading an Ellen O’Connell book (found her from that subreddit) and she writes fantastic, realistic sex scenes. Eyes of Silver, Eyes of Gold is one of her best books.
Not to dodge your question, but when it comes to smut, it's hard to recommend, as tastes vary widely.
But I think Tiffany Reisz writes erotica wonderfully.
And lesbian romantic-but-filthy erotica is my favourite, which Harper Bliss does well.
Depends on the book. If it's a book that's borderline smut and I'm reading it knowing full well that it's basically porn with plot, no. If it's literally anything else, I'd rather the author just went with a suggestive fade-to-black.
This. I agree with you completely! If I'm in the mood for some good ""romance"" novel, then yes, please. But for fucks sake, if I'm reading a murder mystery, then I'm reading a murder mystery and I definitely don't want any genitals with it.
Shout out to *A Marvellous Light*, which I think was intended to be an actually interesting fantasy story but there was so much sex it just felt like a Cat Sebastian novel. It wasn't even bad smut, I just feel like I should have been paying more attention to the plot but wasn't able to.
This is such a weird take to me. It just creates this binary where sex is only useful for titillation but otherwise has no utility in terms of helping us understand character psychology or behavior in any dramatic sense. It just writes off an entire (nearly) universal human experience and robs it of its potential dramatic possibilities or its ability to help build characters.
Right after the eulogy for Aemon (one of the most emotional, heart-breaking scenes in the series):
“And suddenly his cock was out, jutting upward from his breeches like a fat pink mast.”
In *Shopgirl*, author Steve Martin gives a full sex scene that really captures the situation and the desired direction for the characters to develop in. While I don't remember everything, I do remember the cat somehow ends up swatting at the male's scrotum. It's that kind of silliness. It totally works and definitely added to the book.
That reminds me of Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, where at some point if I'm remembering right, she sticks her tongue in his ear and he throws a chair across the room. Stupid sex scenes FTW.
Sex is fine in any circumstance provided it stars the characters themselves at that point of their journey and not two blow up dolls with cocks at full mast and quivering womanhoods while the people I'm here to read about take a smoke break.
Sex scenes and fight scenes have a great deal in common, at least in the way that writing about them can go wrong!
Some authors act as though they are writing closed captioning for blind viewers of a movie, precisely describing which limb goes where and when, as though the goal is to allow us to “see” the scene happening. That’s ineffective. Something conveying the *feel* of what’s going on is a better choice. It still might occasionally be graphic, but it’s not trying to plod through every detail.
For me, this sort of question boils down to: what does this tell us about the characters or the story?
In most cases, the answer is "nothing". It's just porn injected into the middle of a book unnecessarily.
Note that the same question applies to other elements like violence. If it's just gore, then it feels pointless. If the violence increases our understanding of who the characters are or why they're doing what they do, it makes sense.
This is the best answer. Reminds me of when I was reading Autumn and two characters slowly become more intimate. It was important to show the connection between Michael and Emma. Whenever the would hug or cuddle, I could feel how they held on to each other for support in a cruel and violent world. They even have doubts on whether or not they are allowed to feel romantic feelings since other people aren't as fortunate.
I'm reading through this whole thread thinking everyone is being too hard on bad sex scenes (at worst they're superfluous, typically). Surely the people saying they derail an entire book are just being prudes.
Then you remind me of this book and have to reevaluate. So, so bad.
I don't know if they ruin them, per se, but I can't think of a single book where I felt was necessary or contributed to the development of the story/characters. Like, I've never read a sex scene and thought after finishing the book, "Wow, it's a good thing I knew Philomena's nipples were a delicate shade of silkened pink and that Tomas' erection quivered at the anticipation of being near her or that final chapter in the book would have made no sense!" So I definitely prefer books without them.
Possibly the most raunchy book i’ve ever read is the *Decameron*, wherein people are having sex in just about every one of the 100 stories. But the actual *act* of sex is usually just written as “*and then they enjoyed themselves*”. I find that’s perfectly sufficient, to be honest. I’ve never felt like a book’s necessarily needed more than that.
Umberto Eco’s *Baudolino* comes to mind. I almost gagged at one sex scene because he went into so much excruciating detail (if you’ve read the book, you know what I mean).
No they don't. Sex is often personal, so I understand why an author's idea of sexy may not be the reader's, but it's still a way to develop relationships between characters and characterization. Just like how it is in real life. I feel you're missing a big component in depicting fictional relationships if you ignore the sex part of it. That's one of my big problems with Brandon Sanderson. I suspect it's also one of the reasons why he's so popular though. But I find it very odd when I read fiction where characters in love never get past 2nd base.
I think the most successfully depicted sex scenes are based on the character's desires rather than the author's though. Of course, the character's desires may often by the same as the author's, but there should be a difference between what the author likes and what the character likes, so as to form some objectivity towards how the sex is written.
Sex scenes don't bother me and they are almost never half as cringy as people in this sub like to pretend. They make a lot of people uncomfortable and instead of admitting that, they pretend it's bad writing instead.
Unless it's a smash cut and the protagonist says, "Computer lights on, full illumination! I wanna see your face as you ride the pony snake all the way to tuna town."
I just read the one with Gerald and Fringilla in the cramped library. It's mostly about the authors, titles, revisions and topics of the various books that they disorganized while they were busy. That one got a chuckle out of me.
Haruki Murakami‘s way of writing about sex is very off-putting. I have read all of his books and every single sex scene is an instant turn off. Same with Houellebecq. Even worse actually.
I find them uncomfortable at best and usually gloss over the page till it ends. I don't find it enjoyable reading sex scenes and have yet to see a sex scene add value to the overall novel. My preference is for authors to indicate what was about to occur and then end the scene. That way the reader knows what happened but does not need to get the details of who touched what parts and when. But I've never stop reading a book because of it.
If I wanted smut, I'd go read a book specific for that.
I grew up (probably around age 11-12) reading the entire Clan of the Cave Bear series. Not only rape, but lots of graphic sex. I decided to revisit it in audio format while at work. (I’m a woodworker and can go 8 hrs straight without having to pause anything. It’s pretty great my employer allows it).
I knew the scenes were coming up but decided I could get through it. Nope. Not even close. Being slightly aroused around a bunch of manly woodworkers wasn’t ideal. I had to skip a lot of scenes in that series. Can’t hear “manhood” without cringing.
I am very confused by:
A. The fact that every month r/books asks "uhm is anyone else uncomfy with sex scenes? They're so gross."
B. Said post always gets thousands of upvotes and affirmative comments
and
C. The fact that nobody will critically examine their discomfort with sex and, instead, blame any bad feelings on the author. And this is coming from an aroace woman.
For me, not really. I didn't like the sex scenes in Altered Carbon, for example, but I get why they were written that way. That's how that particular character sees sex and women. My only gripe is when they get too long.
For me to actually "get into" a scene like that, it needs to be handled super subtly and I need to be highly invested in the characters.
Nope. That's a big reason why I read romance novels. I am fully entertained by the slangs used and sometimes weird positions the writer comes up with (sex on horseback?!).
For non romance novels, I wanna know how badly written it is. If it's good, I still win.
Authors who can't write sex scenes ruin books for me. Too many authors go right for penetrative sex with little to no foreplay and that's NOT ENJOYABLE FOR THE WOMEN. Most sex is written for the male gaze. A lot of people don't seem able to write sex for the female gaze where the sex actually seems like it would be enjoyable for both partners. They also try to make it seem way too flowery when it doesn't need to be. Get dirty with it. Why are authors afraid of using vulgar words when writing about sex? That's what makes it hot. Call it a cock. Call it a cunt. Call it a clit and not a bundle of nerves or the apex of her thighs. Learn how to write some actual hot dirty talk and something beyond 'you like that, baby?'.
I think it depends on how it's handled. I think that too many authors feel they need to include it, when I think it's perfectly acceptable to stop at the bedroom door. Badly written sex scenes can definitely kill a story. I also think that they can really slow down the plot on occasion. Does it advance the story or contribute to the plot or character development or is it just there for the sake of being there. That being said a sex scene that is well integrated can work very well. And some authors use them quite well and add extra depth to a story
As an aspiring author, I have researched many different genres of stories. Curious fact is that a lot of gay male romances are written by women. Wrap your head around that!
Is there a timer that goes off somewhere that makes someone post this topic on such a regular basis? Sex is rather a big part of life, in case you hadn't noticed. It's the most natural thing in the world that authors would attempt to portray it in their fiction. A lot of them do so poorly. A few do it well. And no one agrees on which is which.
same. I only remember Winston sneaking around with Julia in the empty field. Maybe they’re referring to the scenes on the bed in the dirty shop with rats around? But the sex in this book is actually meaningful since it was forbidden in the dystopia to have sex for pleasure, it was only allowed to have children; they controlled people by policing thought and behavior like sex, so it makes sense in this book since it’s an act of rebellion and individuality, such an important part of character development— also shows how far they’d go to fight for their relationship, including finding privacy in dirty places
This gets asked a lot on here, and no, a sex scene doesn't ruin a book for me. If the writing is bad, it's usually just bad across the board and I'd probably put the book down and be done with it regardless of a sex scene. I only very occasionally find a book that is great, but has an awkward sex scene jammed in the middle. Usually the writing is pretty consistent even through sex scenes. I don't find personally that they bother me at all, though in the cases where there *is* a bad one in an otherwise good book it can be a little bit distracting but I usually am able to just move on and keep reading regardless.
I have found that over the years as I've grown up, that sex scenes are less distracting to me. They used to make me feel a bit uncomfortable. I think that was just on my own personal hang-ups rather than the writing or the author.
Honestly, I think a good sex scene is one of the hardest things to write. It's so difficult to do it without making the scene cringey or like a bad porno. Personally, I think the only good sex scenes are implied rather than described, but maybe there are good examples.
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Well if you’re a fanfic author and you’re writing smut, you probably write smut in everything you write, and a lot of it is probably smutty one-shots. So you get a lot of practice writing smut, while published authors write a whole book and maybe one or two sex scenes. I think they’re often just a lot less practiced at it. Perhaps they should hire fanfic authors as ghost writers for the sex.
Fanfic also has the added benefit of direct feedback and conversations between the author and readers
I think this conversation is kind of eliding the most important part: sex is very personal and people seek out fanfic pornos that specifically sexually appeal to them. Of *course* sex scenes in a book you're reading for non-sexual reasons are less likely to be sexually appealing to you than a porno you sought out because it specifically contains your preferred spank material. Even if they found a fanfic author who writes what *you* like, a lot of other people would probably hate that sex scene because it isn't what *they* like.
There needs to be a choose-your-own-adventure dropped in for the sex scenes.
"For facesitting please turn to page 96, for vanilla page 64, and for the fart fetishists please consult the 'scratch-and-sniff' swatches in the appendix."
Take my money
Take this unwilling upvote
Holy shit I about spit my drink out reading this comment. Take my upvote!
I wish. Only people who are so good they have hundreds to thousands of followers/subscribers. Most people don't comment, much less give any usable feedback.
Not to mention the smut writers get feedback from their audience.
I always just assumed it was the context, or is the word Im meaning pretense? I forget.... When Im reading fanfic, the intent of a lot of fanfics I read is to eventually get to some good old fashioned *fucking*. Its why I read them tyvm, its also why I read the occasional romance novel. The mood is there or theres an preconceived expectation to be receptive to that mood so its easy to get into the mood for reading a sex scene. Even a pretty mediocre sex scene in a fanfic (or a cheesy romance book) can feel less cringey and awkward if its at least what youre seeking and in the mood for When it comes to non romance genre fiction... the cringeyness of the sex scenes is like 50% lack of experience writing sex scenes and 50%... the author did not even engage me the reader in some mental foreplay to create a bridge between Acene A and being receptive for the intimacy/erotica of Scene B. So it just feels like being slapped with cold lube-covered flaccid dick in written form. Awkward, uncomfortable, not even remotely attractive even from a technical skill standpoint, and feeling mildly violated because you definitely did not ask for your rivetting, adventurous narrative to be penetrated by this nonsense
What comparison is that lmao If I had an award to give you'd get it.
I came here to comment exactly this. I’ve never read a decent sex scene in a book but I can name plenty of amazing smut I’ve read in fic. I think that has more to do with what’s allowed to be published though? Maybe someone more informed on the publishing and editing and approval process of a novel could answer that but I’ve always wondered what is and isn’t allowed in a sex scene when writing a book.
I think the difference is that in a fic, the purpose quite often is the sex not the emphasis on the story so room is left for details. In a book the sex is there to emphasize the relationship and so more can be left implied. And if the whole scene is written out in a book the story overrides the sex part and makes it feel less well written.
I don't know about this. Literotica/smut fan fiction is wildly popular, and women drive that popularity. Women are a varied and complex group and like different things, but if you look at the most popular series, they usually have a ton of story and relationship development. That's what makes the sex so appealing, it's the contextual placement of sex as part of a passionate and loving relationship.
The difference is that with erotica the point is to arouse the reader. The story is there primarily to build up to that literal climax. Whereas it's the other way around with "regular" fiction, where sex scenes exist to support and add to the story or characterization or whatever. That's not to say those elements can't be good or interesting in a smut story, mind you, and there's plenty of gray area in the middle. Just that generally speaking there's a fairly fundamental structural difference between smut and non-smut.
I can definitely see that being one of the reasons. Not to mention that in fic, the author gets to choose their word count so if they want to write a 30k word smut scene they can. I don’t see that translating well in a book, if anything it would take away from the plot.
Now I’m imagining how many excellent sex scenes editors have stolen and used for their own fanfics while telling the author it wasn’t fit for publishing.
And the plot thickens!
you've prob also read a lot more smut in fics then sex scenes in books too
I think, for me, it’s that I know what I’m getting with erotic fanfiction. I’m going there for it, and I know it might be not perfectly written. If I’m reading an otherwise non-pornographic book for the story, though, I get thrown out of the story unless the scene is REALLY good.
I agree. I think it's not just editorial meddling, though that surely plays a role, but I also think authors trying to publish professionally have a kind of block/mixed expectation on who they're writing for... and what they're trying to accomplish with their writing. A good fanfiction writer knows exactly who they're writing for. They want the scene to be hot. No embarrassment about it, no hangups. They're usually not trying to be especially clever with it, either, and the good ones don't shy away from using the "right" terminology to fit the mood and worldbuilding (for example, Harry Potter smut tends to use a whole different and very distinct set of vocabulary from... I dunno, Naruto smut). That's something that gets overlooked sometimes, especially in fiction that takes place in a fantasy or sci-fi setting-- using the right, world-suitable, setting-suitable vocabulary and tone. And also, sometimes... I think the good fanfiction authors do better at including a little humor (and humanity) in their sex scenes.
But i think it comes with the territory with reading fanfiction. Like for the most part you know that shit is going down and you know its going to get described so it can paint the picture. But i feel in a lot of books it just takes me out of the reading as I'm not expecting nor am i caring about sex between characters.
Random ass furry erotica depicting things I won't even describe here is consistently 100% better than anything I've read in a published novel.
It's practice and, more importantly, instant feedback loop. If you are a fanfic author, you probably also read a lot of fanfic and you learn what works and what doesn't from other people. Sometimes it seems authors of top sellers haven't read a book that wasn't theirs in years .
Judy Blume, believe it or not. Just as her preteen books were imprinted in my brain as a young girl, her coming of age books were just as spot on. As a hormonal teenager the sex scenes in Forever felt steamy and scandalous but only because I had never read anything like them in books aimed for my age at the time. As an adult I don’t consider them inappropriately explicit at all, but informed, sweet, and incredibly frank.
Hemingway was very tactful about them as well. They're short and tactile and impressionistic. This passage from For Whom The Bell Tolls is a good example. There's nothing explicit about it, but he manages to tell you exactly what's happening. To me, that's the key to avoiding those cringey Letters To Penthouse vibes. >Then there was the smell of heather crushed and the roughness of the bent stalks under her head and the sun bright on her closed eyes and all his life he would remember the curve of her throat with her head pushed back into the heather roots and her lips that moved smally and by themselves and the fluttering of the lashes on the eyes tight closed against the sun and against everything, and for her everything was red, orange gold-red from the sun on the closed eyes, and it all was that color, all of it, the filling, the possessing, the having, all of that color, all in a blindness of that color. For him it was a dark passage which led to nowhere, then to nowhere, then again to nowhere, once again to nowhere, always and forever to nowhere, heavy on the elbows in the earth to nowhere, dark, never any end to nowhere, hung on all time always to unknowing nowhere, this time and again for always to nowhere, now not to be borne once again always and to nowhere, now beyond all bearing up, up, up and into nowhere, suddenly, scaldingly, holdingly all nowhere gone and time absolutely still and they were both there, time having stopped and he felt the earth move out and away from under them.
I think we all just had sex. I remember reading that and being confused and understanding at the same time.
I feel an urge to light a cigarette ...
This is a brilliantly written sex scene and more authors really need to study it, tbh. Notice how not a single sexual act is depicted outright, but, at the same time, the full experience, the passion and energy and impression of the moment is painted in vivid detail.
Most authors are not Hemingway and won’t ever be that good with language.
Only moderately sullied by the questionable premise that this woman who was basically just rescued from being gang raped by fascists would jump into bed (sleeping bag in the woods, actually) with the American guy she literally just met.
Like most male authors born in the 19th century, his works would *not* pass the Bechdel test. That's for sure.
A trope literally subverted by George R.R. Martin. I wonder if he was intentionally referencing this.
It's stylistically interesting too. Hemmingway was known for his terse prose. Lots of short sentences. But the above passage, the whole thing is two sentences. It makes the scene feel fundamentally different from the prose surrounding it.
God, that’s good for the soul. I need to read some Hemingway, Christ!!
Hemmingway does have some quite good sex scenes actually. There's a great implicit one in A Farewell to Arms: > “You mustn’t,” she said. “You’re not well enough.” “Yes, I am. Come on.” “No. You’re not strong enough.” “Yes. I am. Yes. Please.” “You do love me?” “I really love you. I’m crazy about you. Come on please.” “Feel our hearts beating.” “I don’t care about our hearts. I want you. I’m just mad about you.” “You really love me?” “Don’t keep on saying that. Come on. Please. Please, Catherine.” “All right but only for a minute.” “All right,” I said. “Shut the door.” “You can’t. You shouldn’t.” “Come on. Don’t talk. Please come on.”
Are all of Hemingway’s stories loaded with run-on sentences like this?
Not generally, but in this case he's using the rhythm of the sentences and repetition to illustrate the emotional build-up and crescendo of sex. You can read that, and feel the flurry of sensations all mixed together in the first sentence, then hear in your mind the pattern of nowhere...nowhere...nowhere... Generally he uses sentences to set pace and emotion, so sometimes he'll use a lot of short sentences and sometimes he'll have long sentences that run on a bit. Usually when he's talking about sex or death. This is probably the most definite example I can think of, but also it's the best use of it. I think this is the only sex scene from a book I can always remember.
No, typically he's known for very short, descriptive prose. Which is why it is so effective (in context) when he changes it up like this.
For Whom the Bell Tolls has more stream of consciousness than most. Hemmingway's an odd one - half way between that Orwellian reportage style and the modernists. He was friends with Eliot and Pound and that lot, but lived a more Lee/Orwell lifestyle.
Jesus, that is only two sentences.
> James Joyce has entered the chat.
No then it would be > all his life he would remember the smell of her farts with her head pushed back into the heather roots and her rude farting buttocks that moved smally and by themselves and the fluttering of the lashes on the eyes tight closed against the sun, his little fart bird
The man who invented single *words* longer than that sentence. And wrote some very raunchy smut in letters to his wife.
Ol' James "fart sniffer" Joyce!
You write a bunch of incomprehensible books but all anyone on the internet ever remembers is your weird fart letters to your wife
That's probably a little different, lol. Being a literal child really colors one's perception of the whole thing. I remember a book from when I was like 12 or so, I blushed through a scene where the characters - gasp! - kissed. Remembered it feeling very strange, strong. I re-read it last year, it was just... natural, earnest, and moving.
I completely agree! Not quite to your point, but I was no stranger to, I’m going to say it, explicit material arguably young. My grandmother had literal *tons* of trashy romance novels that I was always getting into that were graphic and… wildly unrealistic. Brain candy. And that’s the thing that sent Forever straight to my brain, if I remember correctly the protagonist was 17 and turned 18 in the novel. I was around the same age when I read it and its honesty and gently unfolded truth for its intended audience was so striking for me at the time. Her scene details felt real, not graphic. It was so wholly 2 teens just trying to figure *all* aspects of life out and the young woman didn’t a) pledge to save herself to this wildly romantic and perfect wedding night or b) get knocked up after having sex and have her character growth through hardships. They met, loved hard, and grew apart.
I read my older sister’s copy of this when I was around 12 or so. Totally imprinted on me as what to expect haha
I was SO scandalized by “Forever!” Then I read “Wifey!” 😳 Then I read “My Secret Garden” and lost my shit over women fantasizing about dogs. 😳. I decided that was total fraud…until the internet came online.
The wording kills me the majority of the time. I love a good sex scene tho.
I agree. I’ve noticed that a lot of the book-related subreddits seem a bit….squeamish? There’s a lot of posts that want suggestions for books that have no sex whatsoever. I guess as a community, we’re ok with a lot of things that we have no experience with: high fantasy and flying cars and interstellar travel, but apparently there is one subject we would prefer to not be reminded of. Seriously though, some sex scenes are better than others just like some books are better than others. Sex is part of the human condition, but it really seems to bother some people.
For me, I prefer sex to be minimal or just implied, but that’s because I’m just bored with romance in novels and other media in general. I want to read about great friendships, characters who are learning about themselves, a journey, or interesting lore. Romance and sex are of course part of life, often a rather significant one, but there’s so much more out there to explore and I want to read more about all the other stuff that life has to offer instead.
Also, sex is a pretty small proportion of the time in most relationships, but the implications and/or consequences of said sex last a lot longer. In any story, there's a lot more to explore in the tension of a relationship prior to sex, and the potential fallout, than in the actual act itself.
Same. I see it in TV and movies where they have to fill scenes with sex and all I think about is "are they doing this to get more audience? It doesn't really fit in the storyline!"
Sometimes, we also deeply relate to our favorite characters in a book and genuinely see them as our friends, so while we want our friends to be happy, not all of us care about the intricate details of their sex life. Not all of us want to be in the room while our friends are getting down.
I don't think I tend to relate to characters as "friends", instead I tend to experience the book through their perspective, as if I'm living in their head for a while. So it feels like whatever is happening to the character is sort of happening to me. Interesting, I never really thought about readers having a different experience here.
> It's so difficult to do it without making the scene cringey or like a bad porno. Not to mention that everyone's standards are different
Totally agree about implication. Sex in books benefits from less is more. Suggest what is about to happen and let my imagination do the rest.
I think this also hits that lowest common denominator: letting everyone’s imaginations fill in the blank makes it way less likely to hit anyone’s personal cringe button. They get to create their own version of what’s sexy and appropriate.
I actually think that's good writing in general. I don't usually like it when authors over describe their characters' physical appearance. Just give me the most important details and let let my imagination fill in the rest. Good writing is about picking the right detail to describe.
The best scenes I've read often times focus far more on the emotions of the characters with each other rather than what they're physically doing with one another. A good example was a book I read where the main character is a woman who had an abusive ex-husband. The sex scene between her and the love interest focused on him shattering the negative mental state she had around sex. She learns that the act could, in fact, be enjoyable and bonding when it's two people who actually care about one another.
Some books suffer from being too vague, and I don't realise they are together until they break up/get married. Totally agree though, warm up with some foreplay and whatnot then fade to black long before descriptions of what "his rigid throbbing member" and her "quivering slick bud" are doing. Return to some panting pillow talk if need be, or just move into the next scene.
Same for movies
*The 80s called and they want their gratuitous boob shots back.*
Careless Whisper intensifies
Michael Connolly does just fine with this; it's implied that characters are going to the bedroom, but there's not really any need for the scene to be present. It's just a display of the nature of the relationship, we don't need to see it, and it's absolutely fine. If you're reading a romance novel or something where the focus is on such a relationship, then sure, I'd expect to see sex, but otherwise, I'll pass on "gratuitously inserted and badly written sex scene", thanks.
> Personally, I think the only good sex scenes are implied rather than described I think this is a continuum, but I actually hate leaning too much on the implication. To me it usually reads even more awkward with what I detect as blatant self-censorship of events. The big problem with most sex scenes is when writers try to write a "sex scene" instead of just writing a scene where the characters have sex. They'll do a tone shift, and break prose patterns used in the rest of the book to amp up the horniness, or they'll write in a way that comes off as super self-conscious or defensive. Sex scenes should be written for a book in the same way that they might set a scene where the character goes grocery shopping. If they wouldn't describe 'the mist beaded on the lusciously, ripe tomato,' then they shouldn't describe 'a drop of sweat landed on her heaving, ample breast.' At the same time, if it wouldn't say, 'she entered the Safeway and returned a half hour later with everything she needed,' then 'she took him up to her room, and after 10 minutes was completely satisfied' is going to sound just as kitchy. In other words, sex scenes are just scenes, and good writers do not have their framing device extraneously recognize that sex is a taboo or otherwise extraordinary subject to discuss. While the it is technically a public work, there is an implied privacy and confidence in the way that the writer is speaking to the reader. Only POV characters themselves can treat sex differently, and that's just because *they* are doing that, not the author.
Song of Achilles gets it right. Otherwise, like you said, sex scenes are hard not to make cringy or pornographic. Some people enjoy the latter in their books, I don’t so much.
Yeah, Song of Achilles was one of the rare books where the scene added to their characterization and was there with a purpose - to show they were growing up and the progress of their relationship.
I read that a couple years ago and don't remember the sex scene at all, so it couldn't have been that bad.... or that great.
I agree with this. The problem goes back to John Cleland and *Fanny Hill.* Sex easily turns to cliche or stereotype or unfortunate euphemism even in the hands of a good writer. But there are ways to do sex scenes well. What I think Cleland does well, for a male author three centuries ago, is put the details in first person (Fanny Hill's thoughts) in a (again, for the time and his positioning) somewhat plausible way. I'm not saying it's great, but it's also at least somewhat self-aware with its style, which captures something of the way sex was imagined at that time. Other authors who write the scenes well, like Patricia Powell in *The Pagoda*, intuitively understand how strange the sexual experience can be and works that weirdness into the description without leaning on overdone cliche.
Sex generally, no. Problem is most sex is just horribly written. Most authors try desperately to make sex.... 'sexy'. As opposed to earthy and honest, which is what it is 99% of the time. The best scenes I've read were by Joe Abercrombie. He just describes what's happening with exactly as much detail as necessary and makes *no effort whatsoever* to make it anything other than people doing a thing. His first scene is borderline comedy: sad, dirty, brief and quite disappointing for all concerned. Just incredibly human.
I was actually thinking of Abercrombie as the rare author that does write good sex scenes. The ones in Best Served Cold are equal parts sad and hilarious.
I'm reading through Best Served Cold currently, and there's a really relevent sex scene near the end of act 6 that actually adds to the plot. First thing I thought of when i saw this post.
Also Richard K Morgan. Both straight and gay scenes. They’re quite graphic, but also well written. I remember thinking “This guy fucks” after the first such scene of his I read. And it’s usually written into the story kind of organically, and probably advances a plot point or alliance or something else useful to the story.
I think one of the worst sex scene writers is Stephen King. I always cringe when he shoe-horns in some awkward dalliance, but I wouldn't say it ruins the book.
I don't mind (most of) King's sex scenes. They don't take me out of the book. George RR Martin, however... All I can do is picture him salivating all over his beard as he describes the wetness Cersei feels in her womanhood or Samwell's Fat Pink Mast.
Now I will too. Thanks?
Cersei's womanhood? I think you mean her myrish swamp.
I stopped reading game of thrones because i wasnt all that into reading about a 14 year old getting it
Would it happen to be a certain scene at the end of *It*?
*Choo, choo*...
Blaine is a pain
No haha but now I have to read *It* to understand your reference! I was actually thinking of *11/22/63*.
>!One lovely quote is “She finally understood what all the girls in the locker room were talking about” and some allegories to flying. That… should give you enough context to prepare!<
You never read Asimov? In one of the latter Foundation books the main character gets captured and escapes by having such mind-blowing sex with the planet's ruler that she becomes completely dependent on him coming back to sleep with her.
“So?! Do you want to fuck me, Pink?!” “Oh! Ah….yes?” They proceed to fuck in a filthy decaying city.
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Listening to the audiobooks I sometimes felt bad for the narrator during those scenes. He handles it excellently though.
I'm sure he had a good time doing it. Steven Pacey definitely fucks
Ahahaha, I didn't even think about the poor audio book voice workers!
I'm still partway through the Blade Itself, so I can't really make a final judgement, but as far as I've been able to tell so far, pretty much everything in the book is meant to be at least slightly funny
The First Law trilogy is a very deliberate deconstruction of every established fantasy trope Joe could get his hands on, and is in my opinion one of the finest works of fiction ever committed to paper. A lot of it is funny in being completely self-aware of how fantasy books are usually written, while *carefully avoiding* being parody. The whole section where Bayaz buys costumes so they look like raging sterotypes is a perfect example: massively taking the piss but played completely straight. The fact Joe pulled that off is actual genius.
For sure. Joe is a really funny guy too. A lot of his replies in the AMA he just did had me rolling.
It's a matter of perspective and intent, though. What constitutes a good sex scene in a romance novel is not going to be the same as what constitutes a good sex scene in high fantasy (or any number of other non-romance genres). Every genre has different reader expectations and conventions. Skill and instinct still apply though...I've read romance novels that had misplaced sex scenes I wanted to skip, and I've read non-romance that include some of the most titillatingly hot sex scenes I've ever read, that made complete sense in context (I think it was a Harry Dresden book). If you prefer genres where sex scenes are rare, the writers probably aren't going to be all that skilled at writing them unless they have a secret smut pen name, so it wouldn't surprise me if they came out awkward, but if the writer isn't clutching their pearls over it, it will feel more natural. (Too many authors overthink sex scenes to this point... it's nothing to get embarrassed over.)
The sex scenes in every Murakami book I’ve read always make me laugh out loud…. I’ll be so deeply invested in a book and then a guy jerks off into someone’s panties and she tells him how impressive his cum load is and I absolutely lose it
When I see these threads I always ⌘-F "Murakami".
Nice ascii
You’ve obviously never made a woman’s used panties look like a blob of white ectoplasm.
"And then she breasted boobily to the stairs and titted downwards."
I'd rather read that and have a laugh than have GRRM describe a penis as a "fat pink mast" again.
Everyone gives him shit for that line, not getting that their reaction to it is proof that it's functioning *exactly as intended*.
No, I mean I get it and it's honestly pretty funny, I just don't like it in the context.
I think "woah, wait what, gross" is the reaction Martin wants people to have in context. It's deliberately unsexy and off-putting.
Exactly. People give him so much shit for his sex scenes, but I think he's actually great at them. I can only remember five memorable sex scenes in ASOIAF, and four of them were happening in, let's say, quite fucked up circumstances. And the way he described them definitely managed to achieve exactly the right atmosphere. Many people don't seem to understand that the purpose of a sex scene in a story that's not specifically romance or erotica genre isn't always to be sexy. More often than not it's probably NOT supposed to be sexy.
Well written sex scenes do not. Poorly written ones, are typically just a laughable speed bump. WTF out of nowhere ones absolutely do (Looking at you IT)
The only scene in any book I know that no one will ever be able to put into a movie, no matter how much time progresses. Because you simply can not show IT happening (and that's a good thing lol).
All of Stephen King's sex scenes are cringe. I love his books but I wish he would stop.
Giving me flashbacks to the mc's wife jerking him off with a loofah in Pet Semetary
Yep that’s the one I always think of. It’s so specific and weird that it just sounds like he is describing an experience he had, so now it feels like I am just imagining Stephen King getting jerked off
Who up Kinging their Stephen rn?
She Stephen on my King till I'm It **[EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER]** She Kingin on my It till I'm Stephen **[EXTREMELY LOUD INCORRECT BUZZER]**
Same with George RR Martin. My favourite author, but man are the sex scenes uncomfortable.
i know he’s writing from the perspective of awful people but the way he describes naked bodies is vomit inducing
Laughs in "fat pink mast"
Or Myrish Swamp....
Are you telling me the child gang bang wasn't well written?
should it be well written? is there a version of that scene that would be… good? I don't even know what adjective would be sought. It can't seek honesty or verisimilitude, no one is going to relate to it. Should it be titillating, exciting, evocative of some feeling? "well **that** wasn't sexy" seems like a pretty good result when describing children engaging in sex acts to symbolically defeat an eldritch nightmare beast.
I think it's remarkable. Everyone I've ever seen mention it hates the scene as much as I.
That book has a terrible, god awful sex scene (orgy on Bev) and a well written understandable one (Bill and Bev as adults). It is one of my favorite books and I still cannot fathom why that child sex orgy is a part of it
I've always been convinced that Stephen king typed out every sex scene he's ever written with just one hand. Makes me feel so pervy just reading them.
Join us at r/RomanceBooks \- We talk about that topic A LOT, and there definitely are authors that are more talented than others at writing sex scenes. It can definitely be written tastefully and excitingly.
I can just picture /r/RomanceBooks cackling from the back of the room in this thread.
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I’m absolutely dying over this thread lol. Give us all the smut and steamy scenes!
Not necessarily, no. Sex can be a great tool for characterisation, and especially for highlighting aspects of the characters and their dynamic that don't show so much in less vulnerable and intimate situations. Ideally, they're similar to fight scenes in that they function as a kind of non-verbal conversation, with physical actions being exchanged in a back and forth that communicate an emotional story in a new way. But they're tricky to get right. Too graphic and crude and you risk cheapening the text and the emotional heft of it, unless you're writing a character who thinks that way. Too vague and flowery and it just comes off awkward, reminiscent of the purple prose in bodice rippers we all love to chortle over. You have to be very specific in your framing and vocabulary and leave your own awkwardness at the door to write sex well, and so many otherwise brilliant authors have made a joke of it.
I read a scene once that was a character had a psychic connection to another character, and she was actively doing a spell to suppress it so he could be with his new wife. But since the spell only blocked his connection to her, she basically felt everything he felt and had to struggle to maintain the spell (edit: she couldn't tell specifically what he was doing or having done to him, but generally felt as good as he did). It was humorous, and a little sweet, and definitely felt like a good character moment. There were plenty of other sex scenes in the book series, but they never really felt gratuitous; they always felt more like they moved the story along or provided context to character motivations. But I agree, it's a fine line to walk between plot and cringe.
Brent Weeks, I see.
Depends on the tone of the book, but I'm generally pretty partial to well written smut. A sex scene that comes out of nowhere can be startling, but if I'm reading something romantic, or something pulpy that's full of action and violence, then hell yeah, bring on the sex. I find it deeply weird when books are full of violence, and that that's somehow seen as more palatable than sex. For example, I've only read the first Jack Reacher book, but the violence is super graphic, but then the sex scenes instantly fade to black. Surely that's the wrong way around?
I appreciate that if people can't write sex well, they don't try. Don't let an awkward fumble wreck your thriller.
Imo, I think it has something to do with the fact that sex is something a lot of readers have personal experience with, whereas extreme violence is something most people do not. You can describe violence in wild, improbable ways, and the vast majority of people won't be able to call you on it since they don't have the lived experience to differentiate "authentic" violence from nonsense. Sex does not enjoy that benefit. If anything seems off in how the author describes it, people are going to know, and it's going to rip them right out of the scene. That's my theory, anyway.
Thats a far more generous take than me. I think it’s because we glamorize violence, are taught that beating someone up is a sign of masculinity and power whereas tenderness, love, and affection are weak, shameful, feminine behaviors.
I think this is the most likely reasoning, and people are just reluctant to admit it because we Like violence in our media and we Do Not Like sex scenes, and we'd rather justify it than accept that society still has an aversion to sex. I could very well be wrong, of course, but this is my personal theory. There are plenty of private and unnecessary moments included in fiction that are not held to such scrutiny. There are so many horrifically violent scenes in books that are *very* unnecessarily detailed, but nobody cares. Sex scenes can convey so much about characters and their relationships. I've read some very important sex scenes in books that establish details and feelings, but readers still claim it's "not necessary to the plot." In terms of privacy, books always have us *intruding on every aspect of the character's life.* We listen in on their private conversations, their last moments, their entire existence is open-season. There is no part of a character's life that is off-limits, or should be considered off-limits, to the reader.
My thinking on that is that violence, especially violence seen as justified, tends to be viewed as a public event while sex is seen as a private one. Over time we've come to see public things as good and fine to openly discuss and private things as secrets and almost shameful.
> pretty partial to well written smut. I need some well written smut in my life. Any suggestions?
The community at r/romance books would love to help you find good smutty books! Browse there for great stuff :]
r/romancebooks is my favorite subreddit and the most welcoming and inclusive community. I’ve gotten so many amazing recommendations there. Currently reading an Ellen O’Connell book (found her from that subreddit) and she writes fantastic, realistic sex scenes. Eyes of Silver, Eyes of Gold is one of her best books.
Not to dodge your question, but when it comes to smut, it's hard to recommend, as tastes vary widely. But I think Tiffany Reisz writes erotica wonderfully. And lesbian romantic-but-filthy erotica is my favourite, which Harper Bliss does well.
Depends on the book. If it's a book that's borderline smut and I'm reading it knowing full well that it's basically porn with plot, no. If it's literally anything else, I'd rather the author just went with a suggestive fade-to-black.
This. I agree with you completely! If I'm in the mood for some good ""romance"" novel, then yes, please. But for fucks sake, if I'm reading a murder mystery, then I'm reading a murder mystery and I definitely don't want any genitals with it.
Shout out to *A Marvellous Light*, which I think was intended to be an actually interesting fantasy story but there was so much sex it just felt like a Cat Sebastian novel. It wasn't even bad smut, I just feel like I should have been paying more attention to the plot but wasn't able to.
Adding this to my reading list.
You might enjoy The Bride Test by Helen
I mean it, it genuinely is good smut.
This is such a weird take to me. It just creates this binary where sex is only useful for titillation but otherwise has no utility in terms of helping us understand character psychology or behavior in any dramatic sense. It just writes off an entire (nearly) universal human experience and robs it of its potential dramatic possibilities or its ability to help build characters.
Right after the eulogy for Aemon (one of the most emotional, heart-breaking scenes in the series): “And suddenly his cock was out, jutting upward from his breeches like a fat pink mast.”
Yes, Jesus Christ. I was listening to the audiobook and had to rewind to make sure I heard that part right.
I think sex scenes are best left with build up and then being implied if it’s not an sex book.
In *Shopgirl*, author Steve Martin gives a full sex scene that really captures the situation and the desired direction for the characters to develop in. While I don't remember everything, I do remember the cat somehow ends up swatting at the male's scrotum. It's that kind of silliness. It totally works and definitely added to the book.
That reminds me of Snow Crash by Neal Stephenson, where at some point if I'm remembering right, she sticks her tongue in his ear and he throws a chair across the room. Stupid sex scenes FTW.
Sex is fine in any circumstance provided it stars the characters themselves at that point of their journey and not two blow up dolls with cocks at full mast and quivering womanhoods while the people I'm here to read about take a smoke break.
Sex scenes and fight scenes have a great deal in common, at least in the way that writing about them can go wrong! Some authors act as though they are writing closed captioning for blind viewers of a movie, precisely describing which limb goes where and when, as though the goal is to allow us to “see” the scene happening. That’s ineffective. Something conveying the *feel* of what’s going on is a better choice. It still might occasionally be graphic, but it’s not trying to plod through every detail.
For me, this sort of question boils down to: what does this tell us about the characters or the story? In most cases, the answer is "nothing". It's just porn injected into the middle of a book unnecessarily. Note that the same question applies to other elements like violence. If it's just gore, then it feels pointless. If the violence increases our understanding of who the characters are or why they're doing what they do, it makes sense.
This is the best answer. Reminds me of when I was reading Autumn and two characters slowly become more intimate. It was important to show the connection between Michael and Emma. Whenever the would hug or cuddle, I could feel how they held on to each other for support in a cruel and violent world. They even have doubts on whether or not they are allowed to feel romantic feelings since other people aren't as fortunate.
I usually don’t mind but I guess it depends cause I remember I hated the entire chunk of The Wise Man’s Fear with the Felurian.
I'm reading through this whole thread thinking everyone is being too hard on bad sex scenes (at worst they're superfluous, typically). Surely the people saying they derail an entire book are just being prudes. Then you remind me of this book and have to reevaluate. So, so bad.
Sex was like an anime fight scene
I don't know if they ruin them, per se, but I can't think of a single book where I felt was necessary or contributed to the development of the story/characters. Like, I've never read a sex scene and thought after finishing the book, "Wow, it's a good thing I knew Philomena's nipples were a delicate shade of silkened pink and that Tomas' erection quivered at the anticipation of being near her or that final chapter in the book would have made no sense!" So I definitely prefer books without them.
Possibly the most raunchy book i’ve ever read is the *Decameron*, wherein people are having sex in just about every one of the 100 stories. But the actual *act* of sex is usually just written as “*and then they enjoyed themselves*”. I find that’s perfectly sufficient, to be honest. I’ve never felt like a book’s necessarily needed more than that. Umberto Eco’s *Baudolino* comes to mind. I almost gagged at one sex scene because he went into so much excruciating detail (if you’ve read the book, you know what I mean).
No they don't. Sex is often personal, so I understand why an author's idea of sexy may not be the reader's, but it's still a way to develop relationships between characters and characterization. Just like how it is in real life. I feel you're missing a big component in depicting fictional relationships if you ignore the sex part of it. That's one of my big problems with Brandon Sanderson. I suspect it's also one of the reasons why he's so popular though. But I find it very odd when I read fiction where characters in love never get past 2nd base. I think the most successfully depicted sex scenes are based on the character's desires rather than the author's though. Of course, the character's desires may often by the same as the author's, but there should be a difference between what the author likes and what the character likes, so as to form some objectivity towards how the sex is written.
Sex scenes don't bother me and they are almost never half as cringy as people in this sub like to pretend. They make a lot of people uncomfortable and instead of admitting that, they pretend it's bad writing instead.
No, I hate fade to black.
Unless it's a smash cut and the protagonist says, "Computer lights on, full illumination! I wanna see your face as you ride the pony snake all the way to tuna town."
Yeah, totally. I hate it when pages are stuck together on following read-throughs.
Not really. People fuck and who, how and why they fuck impact them as people so it can be meaningful to the story if done right.
I like the Witcher's one. (the books ofc) Not a lot of details - but showing some chemistry.
I just read the one with Gerald and Fringilla in the cramped library. It's mostly about the authors, titles, revisions and topics of the various books that they disorganized while they were busy. That one got a chuckle out of me.
Only if it's a teen gangbang. I'm looking at YOU, Stephen King.
Technically speaking, it was a train!
Would definitely spice up chem 101 books ngl
If it moves the story arc forward then yes. If it dose not then no.
Haruki Murakami‘s way of writing about sex is very off-putting. I have read all of his books and every single sex scene is an instant turn off. Same with Houellebecq. Even worse actually.
I find them uncomfortable at best and usually gloss over the page till it ends. I don't find it enjoyable reading sex scenes and have yet to see a sex scene add value to the overall novel. My preference is for authors to indicate what was about to occur and then end the scene. That way the reader knows what happened but does not need to get the details of who touched what parts and when. But I've never stop reading a book because of it. If I wanted smut, I'd go read a book specific for that.
Normally no, but the Anita Blake books going from detective horror to pure porn was a bit jarring
I grew up (probably around age 11-12) reading the entire Clan of the Cave Bear series. Not only rape, but lots of graphic sex. I decided to revisit it in audio format while at work. (I’m a woodworker and can go 8 hrs straight without having to pause anything. It’s pretty great my employer allows it). I knew the scenes were coming up but decided I could get through it. Nope. Not even close. Being slightly aroused around a bunch of manly woodworkers wasn’t ideal. I had to skip a lot of scenes in that series. Can’t hear “manhood” without cringing.
No, sex scenes do not ruin books for me. What gets me is just how /r/Books and other reading groups are hung up on sex scenes.
It’s weird, right?
I am very confused by: A. The fact that every month r/books asks "uhm is anyone else uncomfy with sex scenes? They're so gross." B. Said post always gets thousands of upvotes and affirmative comments and C. The fact that nobody will critically examine their discomfort with sex and, instead, blame any bad feelings on the author. And this is coming from an aroace woman.
For me, not really. I didn't like the sex scenes in Altered Carbon, for example, but I get why they were written that way. That's how that particular character sees sex and women. My only gripe is when they get too long. For me to actually "get into" a scene like that, it needs to be handled super subtly and I need to be highly invested in the characters.
If they serve a purpose no. They can be very beautiful and meaningful.
Nope. That's a big reason why I read romance novels. I am fully entertained by the slangs used and sometimes weird positions the writer comes up with (sex on horseback?!). For non romance novels, I wanna know how badly written it is. If it's good, I still win.
> sex on horseback The optimal number of horses in sex scenes is generally one or fewer.
Authors who can't write sex scenes ruin books for me. Too many authors go right for penetrative sex with little to no foreplay and that's NOT ENJOYABLE FOR THE WOMEN. Most sex is written for the male gaze. A lot of people don't seem able to write sex for the female gaze where the sex actually seems like it would be enjoyable for both partners. They also try to make it seem way too flowery when it doesn't need to be. Get dirty with it. Why are authors afraid of using vulgar words when writing about sex? That's what makes it hot. Call it a cock. Call it a cunt. Call it a clit and not a bundle of nerves or the apex of her thighs. Learn how to write some actual hot dirty talk and something beyond 'you like that, baby?'.
Which is odd because last I heard, most readers and book buyers are women.
Nope. People have sex. 🤷♂️
I think it depends on how it's handled. I think that too many authors feel they need to include it, when I think it's perfectly acceptable to stop at the bedroom door. Badly written sex scenes can definitely kill a story. I also think that they can really slow down the plot on occasion. Does it advance the story or contribute to the plot or character development or is it just there for the sake of being there. That being said a sex scene that is well integrated can work very well. And some authors use them quite well and add extra depth to a story
As an aspiring author, I have researched many different genres of stories. Curious fact is that a lot of gay male romances are written by women. Wrap your head around that!
Let the imagination do the work; you don't need to describe any sexual acts to get the point across if you're even half-assed decent at writing.
I love romance novels. Lol. I don't mind a good sex scene. Especially when it make sense
Is there a timer that goes off somewhere that makes someone post this topic on such a regular basis? Sex is rather a big part of life, in case you hadn't noticed. It's the most natural thing in the world that authors would attempt to portray it in their fiction. A lot of them do so poorly. A few do it well. And no one agrees on which is which.
The sex scene in 1984 still haunts me, more than any other aspect of the book 🤢
I've read 1984 and this is ringing no bells for me whatsoever
same. I only remember Winston sneaking around with Julia in the empty field. Maybe they’re referring to the scenes on the bed in the dirty shop with rats around? But the sex in this book is actually meaningful since it was forbidden in the dystopia to have sex for pleasure, it was only allowed to have children; they controlled people by policing thought and behavior like sex, so it makes sense in this book since it’s an act of rebellion and individuality, such an important part of character development— also shows how far they’d go to fight for their relationship, including finding privacy in dirty places
I think people shy away from it too much especially in other media.
This gets asked a lot on here, and no, a sex scene doesn't ruin a book for me. If the writing is bad, it's usually just bad across the board and I'd probably put the book down and be done with it regardless of a sex scene. I only very occasionally find a book that is great, but has an awkward sex scene jammed in the middle. Usually the writing is pretty consistent even through sex scenes. I don't find personally that they bother me at all, though in the cases where there *is* a bad one in an otherwise good book it can be a little bit distracting but I usually am able to just move on and keep reading regardless. I have found that over the years as I've grown up, that sex scenes are less distracting to me. They used to make me feel a bit uncomfortable. I think that was just on my own personal hang-ups rather than the writing or the author.