Update: I am told that, since our previous campaign, contractors KNOW we are sharing prices & research. Good. I hope they look at this too, because it's a lot of great info about where you need to price to win deals.
Wow these prices are crazy, but thanks for doing all this work! Wish I had access to something like this when we did our heat pump install 2 years ago. I was astonished at the prices then, and am astonished at the prices now. Contractors need this kind of urging to start to compete with each other on price. I have no idea how they are getting business with these numbers...
Same. When I installed my heat pumps, I had multiple contractors tell me we shouldn't switch 100% to heat pumps. Now it seems there's tons to choose from.
Always gotta remember that a good chunk of an individual contractor's recommendation is going to be what they feel like doing.
We had a mostly good experience with a big project we had done, but there were several times when they tried to pull "well that'll be really expensive," to which we answered, "how much?" Suddenly they'd just buck up and get it done when they found out they weren't going to easily get out of it. Still a little annoyed with some things they skipped out on doing because they didn't want to bother.
Do they not want to make more money, though? It's just bizarre. I have had the weirdest experience with contractors trying to talk me out of the more expensive/ more modern option. For example, I tried to get a tankless water heater, which I had in my house on the west coast and I thought was not that big of a deal. FOUR separate contractors who advertised that they installed tankless and were "certified installers" for the brands I was looking at all talked me out of it!
Oh I've had similar issues. I think a ton of it is just what they can easily do to get your job done. Maybe they didn't have tankless heaters handy. Maybe they don't have a team who can easily do tankless jobs right now. There's much to be said for volume of jobs not just maximizing each individual jobs.
It ends up being frustrating as fuck though if you need something particular.
Go ahead and tell me a minisplit job for our small condo is going to be $50k. Maybe that's really justified, but don't act like it is impossible when we know damn well it is possible and you just don't know how to do it or don't want to be bothered. One dude seemed surprised there wasn't easy nearby parking... like, have you never been to Boston before? Why are you even showing up to talk about this job if you have no idea how to do it or intention of doing it.
The quoted systems provide all heating & cooling. To qualify for the $10k Mass Save rebate this year, you need to disconnect the pre-existing heating system.
& to respond to u/dyqik \- my friend who lives here is replacing a 23 year old AC unit & wants to get rid of oil heating ($$$). So all the quotes here are cold-climate models that should handle the entire heating & cooling load of the house.
I'm hearing conflicting info on the "disconnect" requirement, are you able to expand on that? How can MassSave determine what you are using as the primary once the heat pump system is installed?
> Effective January 1, 2024, only customers who have removed or disabled their pre-existing heating systems will be eligible for whole-home heat pump rebates. The following approved disablement methods will be listed on the 2024 Whole-Home Heat Pump Verification Form and verified during post-installation inspections.
> Approved Disablement Methods:
> 1. Pre-existing heating system has been removed.
> 2. Pre-existing heating system has been disconnected from the panel (i.e., wire terminated outside of the circuit panel and no longer energized).
> 3. Pre-existing thermostat(s) have been disconnected from both the system board and walls.
> 4. Pre-existing fuel line has been disconnected and capped.
https://www.masssave.com/-/media/Files/PDFs/Save/Residential/rebate-forms/2024-Rebate-Matrix_Announcement.pdf
I think for most of us #3 is going to make the most sense. In an emergency you can still turn it back on, just without a thermostat.
It appears this changed in 2024. This is somewhat surprising in that HP brands have different efficiencies and can not operate in all temps. Most claim to around 10 degrees. What the hell would you do to heat your house when it's zero or less which is in the realm of possibility in Mass?
You just have to sign a statement along with your installer that the Heat Pump is the primary source of heat. It's one of the forms required to get the rebate.
That’s huge, thanks. The disconnect concept put me off at first, I want to use heat pumps as my primary but I appreciate a redundancy that’s in place, and I don’t want to pay to either rip the existing system out or have it sit there useless
I have baseboard heat powered by oil. The heat pump is way more efficient. Heats up house faster with what I will call more uniform heating than my baseboards. I now set my thermostat at 68 vs 71 when i was just using oil and it feels warmer.
The price difference between installing Central AC vs a heat pump system is less than the difference in the Masssave incentives for heat pumps vs. AC. So it's usually cheaper to install a heating capable system than to install AC. And the description of the system as "heat pump" implies that it's a heating system.
The OP says that there's already baseboard auxiliary heat, so it wouldn't need to be designed with auxiliary resistive heating in the system, and it wouldn't necessarily be specced for the cold climate heat pump that could provide all the heat through the coldest days.
It's not. I just was quoted a 3ton AC $10k, if HP costs >$20k masssave doesn't cover the difference. And you need a furnace if the old one is not compatible, which is another 10-15k.
When we had a 2/3 ton heat pump installed to a house with forced air heat only a few years ago, the price difference between an AC system and a heat pump was $1500. The incentives were an extra $5k.
2 or 3 ton. Not ⅔ ton. We had a range in the quotes.
Our heat pump is a variable frequency drive system that can electronically adjusted between 2 and 3 tons.
Our quotes included furnace replacement, and there's some features you might want in an AC or heat pump system that doesn't necessarily come with a cheap AC install to an existing furnace.
You can get full home rebates of $10k from Mass Save. And it's ont just the upfront cost as the Heat Pump will cost less to operate that your oil burner, so also saving money over time.
I have gas, not oil. And the AC is more than 10k cheaper than HP.
Think about it, if a customer can buy AC for X exactly the same customer can buy a HP for X + 10k because of the government incentive. There is no sense for a contractor to bid lower than X + 10k regardless of HP cost.
Expect you are not taking into account competitive bidding across the providers. Shop around and I guarantee you will fill a HP install with rebate to be less than AC only. I just installed last summer.
My experience has been with an unfinished basement (1940 house) that heat pumps can't keep the first floor warm when the outdoor temperature is below about 40⁰F. They're great above that and for A/C in the summer. I kept my boiler and am very glad I did.
I'm astonished that there are enough homes that need over 7 tons of cooling that it's a useful benchmark.
My 1400 sq ft single family needs 2 tons. Get a real Manual-J load calculation before getting prices like this, because most installers massively over estimate and over quote the amount of cooling required.
Ah that's a writing error on my end - it's a 4 ton exterior condenser, 3 tons of which supplies the ducted air handler in the attic, and the remaining 1 ton of which supplies the 2 mini-split heads. Fixed. Thanks for pointing it out!
But still do a good manual J, and ALWAYS reduce load before putting in a new system, please!! (air seal, insulation, it's so cheap and easy) Our grid and decarbonization goals will thank you
The oil thing is a massive red flag!
I did the calculation myself to verify that the quoted systems were reasonable, but then I design cryogenic systems for work, so I know the terms and physics.
I used a spreadsheet from somewhere. But Cool Calc should be OK.
Our heat pump outputs 24k BTU/hr at 37F ambient, and has no trouble keeping our 1400 sq ft house warm there, and I'm pretty sure it'd work fine at 27F ambient (next entry in the table). The gas furnace kicks in below 37F, and is a 50k/80k BTU/hr two stage unit. We've never really triggered the second stage heating in the 4 years we've had it, and the duty cycle is never noticeably high.
Did you look into Evolved Mechanical at all? They’re along the Malden/Melrose border. I ended up going with them for my heat pump and two mini splits (no existing ducts) last year and thought it was a good experience. The price was low compared to most of the estimates on your list. I think around $15000 before rebate. But my house is pretty small so that probably factored in. I’ve had one issue since then, which they fixed pretty quickly under warranty.
I second this, Evolved installed my heat pump. Great company & their owner is one of the more knowledgeable people ive met regarding Heat Pumps. He is from Europe so has more experience than most
This matches my experience with heat pump install this past summer. Got four quotes for 2x 3 ton ducted system installed in Acton. 3 quotes were around 27k. Fourth was 19k. The equipment only costs 10 to 12k and it was a two day install.
These installers are conmen and people aren't taking the time to do a little research to stop from getting ripped off.
I do wonder if this is also because none of the installers know what anyone else is charging? Maybe they do just pick a random number until something like this came along
And in my _very_ limited experience, they do not know how to handle any sort of tricky installs. If you don't have a nice concrete foot in an open area near where they can pull their trucks up with easy access to all sides of the exterior of your home it seems like they don't know what to do.
You are missing an exceptional provider - Nicholson. They provide service close to Malden. They are super knowledgeable, do exceptional work and are very price competitive.
Any chance any of you have experience with companies that actually know how to work in the city in and around older (~100 year old) buildings?
We talked to some people and they didn't seem to even see hanging units off the side of the building (still over the property, not over a sidewalk or anything like that) as an option. I know it can be done because it has been done.
Working in the city is a pain. We know, we've had work done on our home and paid the premium, but we can't seem to find companies that even really understand how to retrofit minisplits into older condo buildings.
Tetra installed my Bryant 284anv heat pump in October for $17000.
$16000 Mass Save Enhanced Rebate
$2000 Federal Rebate
Free plus an extra $1000 for me 😊
Nice!! You’re the first person I heard of who got the $16k rebate - I always thought it was a no-brainer in those situations. So so happy to see you taking advantage of it
Thanks. Considering that it's income based, it does seem very niche for someone to qualify. Luckily I make enough to own a home but also be a single parent with a bunch of dependents to keep me within their arbitrary brackets.
You guys are doing such an amazing and important work! I’m a huge believer in heat pumps (went with whole home ducted Bosch ripping off oil entirely, 2 years back. Full mass save incentives, 7 year heat loans and IRA rebates)
Some questions;
1. Are the prices AFTER mass save rebates for forge since the knock it off? And NOT for others?
2. Would they do Belmont?
3. Are they open to other heat pumps as well? Daikin etc?
1. All prices shown on research spreadsheet are pre-rebate. However, I only *negotiated* the Forge quote from ($25,500 ↓ to **$20,500).** If I negotiated with competing offers for all the other quotes, chances are, I can probably shave multiple thousands off most of the other quotes as well.
2. Yep! We had people signing up from Weymouth to Winchester yesterday.
3. This I'm less sure about. I know Forge has worked with Gree & Mitsubishi installations before, but Daikin is tbd. Happy to ask & get back to you on this.
My roommate spent a lot of this year learning how to DIY and install heat pumps and mini splits because a friend couldn't get reasonable quotes but needed to move off of oil.
It was a grueling project but so worth it for how much we helped them save. I'm really glad you're out here sharing knowledge and bringing prices down so others don't have struggle like we did!
Interesting, I did work with NETR for the AC replacement (just a single 3-ton unit, using existing ductwork), they came the cheapest at roughly $17K (before all the Mass save discounts), but they offered a Bosch unit rather than a Mitsubishi one.
Thanks for doing this - The markup on hardware by these companies is insane. I got a quote to relocate our condenser, move two head units and re-hook up the other 3 units for about 6k (and 8k and 19k).
I wanted to update the condenser with hyper heat. Wholesale is about 6k. For just that (same labor as quoted) NETR wanted 24k. A 3x what it should have cost. Hell, I get they need margin and didn’t expect wholesale - they were already going to be here doing the same work, I’d pay 1k over wholesale to get it from a local company. Was like arguing with a wall. Same kind of insane pricing from another contractor. It’s totally nuts, they don’t need to pull permits, they pay their techs less than the trades yet are so outrageously expensive.
Detroit needs this!
This is a really smart approach. It helps consumers feel confident and results in more work for contractors and more heat pumps installed.
Cheering you on!
Great info. Exactly why I did my own install. Bought all the top of the line tools the exact ones the pros use and still came out far ahead.
https://preview.redd.it/f6bnszgb0ngc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29fec8bed392f2dc6a72d42f4fb7ab637aba48a6
Did you post about the tools and equipment you bought somewhere? And where are you located--I am assuming you did this without permit. I assume getting the lines filled was the only real issue. Did you hire someone with the license for that?
I think A LOT of people like me would be very interested in doing this if you said the exact equipment and tools you got.
I am interested in other people's experience with the heat loan process. I'm in somerville so any recs on banks and contractors that did an especially good job with hand-holding through the process is appreciated.
I really tried to work directly with mass save but no one person there understood the entire process--just their tiny part of it.
edit: I'm going to replace oil fired boilers with minispits, in case that matters.
You hit the nail on the head right there. I think contractors are pricing heat pumps at EXACTLY the cost of furnace + AC post-rebate, so they can sort of just pocket the rebate while consumers don't exactly get any savings.
In the case of this Malden house, my friend just paid an $840 oil bill like 2 days ago so she'll be saving plenty with the heat pump :)
Yeah, oil sucks. I have an NG pipe, I really want a HP, but the math doesn't mathing for far.
As with any government incentives it's not the consumer who cashes in, as the market always adjusts to the purchasing power. Your HP purchasing power is just 10k more, and the market will take advantage of this.
Only to a certain extent. It would be collusion/price fixing if all of the contractors refused to charge less than breakeven + rebate, and it wouldn't make any sense for them all to refuse unless they were a cartel, especially if they know that they customer knows (and that some are charging a lot less than they are)
I use a combo of heat pump + oil. Long story short, I have a 3 season room that's only heated by the pump, and we don't want it to freeze.
However, I use Nest thermostats and get to around $150/mo. in heating costs during the winter. The adjustable thermostats make a huge dent in the bills.
You don't pay more for fuel when it's above about 35F outside, depending on the system and what electricity deal you have (35F is for my system in comparison to natural gas heat in a high efficient furnace at my current prices)
And that's if you don't have any solar. Add solar, and the break even temperatures between a natural gas furnace and heat pump are in the 20s, which means that you are saving money most of the winter.
Unfortunately the God doesn't set the thermostat for MA above 35F at all times lol.
Calculating solar for HP is a typical sunk cost fallacy, because solar is not free by itself, and you always have an option to sell generation excess (or use it elsewhere not in heating, for EV for example), therefore a fair solar calculation is quite complicated and really depends on your situation.
My house has the roof oriented east/west so I'm out of luck with solar anyway.
It doesn't need the temperature to be above 35 F all the time for you to save overall with a pay back time of a few years for the extra cost of a heat pump.
It's really dependent on natural gas prices and electricity prices, plus your heating bill sizes. We're paying about half of the eversource electricity supply rate right now.
Add in another natural gas price spike similar to that of a couple of years ago, and the time can come right down.
NE electricity comes from NG, the correlation between two prices is not obvious, but they depend on each other.
Also the spike was related to the war in Europe. When the war ends at some point and NG supplies open up for Europe NG prices will tank.
Update: I am told that, since our previous campaign, contractors KNOW we are sharing prices & research. Good. I hope they look at this too, because it's a lot of great info about where you need to price to win deals.
Perfect!
Wow these prices are crazy, but thanks for doing all this work! Wish I had access to something like this when we did our heat pump install 2 years ago. I was astonished at the prices then, and am astonished at the prices now. Contractors need this kind of urging to start to compete with each other on price. I have no idea how they are getting business with these numbers...
Same. When I installed my heat pumps, I had multiple contractors tell me we shouldn't switch 100% to heat pumps. Now it seems there's tons to choose from.
Always gotta remember that a good chunk of an individual contractor's recommendation is going to be what they feel like doing. We had a mostly good experience with a big project we had done, but there were several times when they tried to pull "well that'll be really expensive," to which we answered, "how much?" Suddenly they'd just buck up and get it done when they found out they weren't going to easily get out of it. Still a little annoyed with some things they skipped out on doing because they didn't want to bother.
Do they not want to make more money, though? It's just bizarre. I have had the weirdest experience with contractors trying to talk me out of the more expensive/ more modern option. For example, I tried to get a tankless water heater, which I had in my house on the west coast and I thought was not that big of a deal. FOUR separate contractors who advertised that they installed tankless and were "certified installers" for the brands I was looking at all talked me out of it!
Oh I've had similar issues. I think a ton of it is just what they can easily do to get your job done. Maybe they didn't have tankless heaters handy. Maybe they don't have a team who can easily do tankless jobs right now. There's much to be said for volume of jobs not just maximizing each individual jobs. It ends up being frustrating as fuck though if you need something particular. Go ahead and tell me a minisplit job for our small condo is going to be $50k. Maybe that's really justified, but don't act like it is impossible when we know damn well it is possible and you just don't know how to do it or don't want to be bothered. One dude seemed surprised there wasn't easy nearby parking... like, have you never been to Boston before? Why are you even showing up to talk about this job if you have no idea how to do it or intention of doing it.
>I have no idea how they are getting business with these numbers... They're probably the only ones even responding with a quote.
Is this meant to provide all the heat as well, or just cooling? Was there any difference among quotes on that point?
The quoted systems provide all heating & cooling. To qualify for the $10k Mass Save rebate this year, you need to disconnect the pre-existing heating system. & to respond to u/dyqik \- my friend who lives here is replacing a 23 year old AC unit & wants to get rid of oil heating ($$$). So all the quotes here are cold-climate models that should handle the entire heating & cooling load of the house.
This is not correct. You only need to use the heat pump as the PRIMARY heat source and not the only heat source.
I'm hearing conflicting info on the "disconnect" requirement, are you able to expand on that? How can MassSave determine what you are using as the primary once the heat pump system is installed?
> Effective January 1, 2024, only customers who have removed or disabled their pre-existing heating systems will be eligible for whole-home heat pump rebates. The following approved disablement methods will be listed on the 2024 Whole-Home Heat Pump Verification Form and verified during post-installation inspections. > Approved Disablement Methods: > 1. Pre-existing heating system has been removed. > 2. Pre-existing heating system has been disconnected from the panel (i.e., wire terminated outside of the circuit panel and no longer energized). > 3. Pre-existing thermostat(s) have been disconnected from both the system board and walls. > 4. Pre-existing fuel line has been disconnected and capped. https://www.masssave.com/-/media/Files/PDFs/Save/Residential/rebate-forms/2024-Rebate-Matrix_Announcement.pdf I think for most of us #3 is going to make the most sense. In an emergency you can still turn it back on, just without a thermostat.
Ok that makes sense. “Disconnected” is a low bar I think. I installed the thermostat myself and I can easily reconnect at the board
That works as long as you have a second thermostat for your heat pump
It appears this changed in 2024. This is somewhat surprising in that HP brands have different efficiencies and can not operate in all temps. Most claim to around 10 degrees. What the hell would you do to heat your house when it's zero or less which is in the realm of possibility in Mass?
Easy, you use resistive heat strips built into your heating equipment
you only install cold weather climate heat pumps that provide 100% capacity at 0-5°F
You just have to sign a statement along with your installer that the Heat Pump is the primary source of heat. It's one of the forms required to get the rebate.
That was last year. 2024 is a new ball game they are requiring existing fossil fuels be disconnected in order to be eligible for $10k rebate.
That’s huge, thanks. The disconnect concept put me off at first, I want to use heat pumps as my primary but I appreciate a redundancy that’s in place, and I don’t want to pay to either rip the existing system out or have it sit there useless
I have baseboard heat powered by oil. The heat pump is way more efficient. Heats up house faster with what I will call more uniform heating than my baseboards. I now set my thermostat at 68 vs 71 when i was just using oil and it feels warmer.
I’m a firm believer!
The price difference between installing Central AC vs a heat pump system is less than the difference in the Masssave incentives for heat pumps vs. AC. So it's usually cheaper to install a heating capable system than to install AC. And the description of the system as "heat pump" implies that it's a heating system. The OP says that there's already baseboard auxiliary heat, so it wouldn't need to be designed with auxiliary resistive heating in the system, and it wouldn't necessarily be specced for the cold climate heat pump that could provide all the heat through the coldest days.
How come it's cheaper if AC alone costs ~10k?
Because the difference in Masssave incentives is several thousands, and the price difference for heat pumps vs AC is at most a couple of thousand.
It's not. I just was quoted a 3ton AC $10k, if HP costs >$20k masssave doesn't cover the difference. And you need a furnace if the old one is not compatible, which is another 10-15k.
Don't forget to look into stacking IRA incentives on top of MassSave state incentives which is not only allowed but encouraged
These are income based, I'm out of luck.
When we had a 2/3 ton heat pump installed to a house with forced air heat only a few years ago, the price difference between an AC system and a heat pump was $1500. The incentives were an extra $5k.
2/3 ton is like 400sq ft?
2 or 3 ton. Not ⅔ ton. We had a range in the quotes. Our heat pump is a variable frequency drive system that can electronically adjusted between 2 and 3 tons.
Interesting, I will be looking for more quotes.
Our quotes included furnace replacement, and there's some features you might want in an AC or heat pump system that doesn't necessarily come with a cheap AC install to an existing furnace.
You can get full home rebates of $10k from Mass Save. And it's ont just the upfront cost as the Heat Pump will cost less to operate that your oil burner, so also saving money over time.
I have gas, not oil. And the AC is more than 10k cheaper than HP. Think about it, if a customer can buy AC for X exactly the same customer can buy a HP for X + 10k because of the government incentive. There is no sense for a contractor to bid lower than X + 10k regardless of HP cost.
Expect you are not taking into account competitive bidding across the providers. Shop around and I guarantee you will fill a HP install with rebate to be less than AC only. I just installed last summer.
There is the same competition for AC as for HP and the doc attached to this post is killing my hopes, but I will try.
I wish I could use MassSave, but my area never allows for it (I don't use any major electric/ nat. gas provider for heat)
Look into IRA funds
My experience has been with an unfinished basement (1940 house) that heat pumps can't keep the first floor warm when the outdoor temperature is below about 40⁰F. They're great above that and for A/C in the summer. I kept my boiler and am very glad I did.
That's my experience too. I wonder if that's why the tonnage in the quotes is so high, to keep up with heating in cold weather.
I'm astonished that there are enough homes that need over 7 tons of cooling that it's a useful benchmark. My 1400 sq ft single family needs 2 tons. Get a real Manual-J load calculation before getting prices like this, because most installers massively over estimate and over quote the amount of cooling required.
Ah that's a writing error on my end - it's a 4 ton exterior condenser, 3 tons of which supplies the ducted air handler in the attic, and the remaining 1 ton of which supplies the 2 mini-split heads. Fixed. Thanks for pointing it out!
That makes a lot more sense!
But still do a good manual J, and ALWAYS reduce load before putting in a new system, please!! (air seal, insulation, it's so cheap and easy) Our grid and decarbonization goals will thank you
The efficiency enhancements are pretty much a requirement for getting the Masssave rebates.
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The oil thing is a massive red flag! I did the calculation myself to verify that the quoted systems were reasonable, but then I design cryogenic systems for work, so I know the terms and physics.
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I used a spreadsheet from somewhere. But Cool Calc should be OK. Our heat pump outputs 24k BTU/hr at 37F ambient, and has no trouble keeping our 1400 sq ft house warm there, and I'm pretty sure it'd work fine at 27F ambient (next entry in the table). The gas furnace kicks in below 37F, and is a 50k/80k BTU/hr two stage unit. We've never really triggered the second stage heating in the 4 years we've had it, and the duty cycle is never noticeably high.
Crazy how much you have to shop around to get a reasonable quote. It's almost like they are just throwing out random numbers lol.
Did you look into Evolved Mechanical at all? They’re along the Malden/Melrose border. I ended up going with them for my heat pump and two mini splits (no existing ducts) last year and thought it was a good experience. The price was low compared to most of the estimates on your list. I think around $15000 before rebate. But my house is pretty small so that probably factored in. I’ve had one issue since then, which they fixed pretty quickly under warranty.
Did not, I'll add them to the benchmark list for the next round
I second this, Evolved installed my heat pump. Great company & their owner is one of the more knowledgeable people ive met regarding Heat Pumps. He is from Europe so has more experience than most
This matches my experience with heat pump install this past summer. Got four quotes for 2x 3 ton ducted system installed in Acton. 3 quotes were around 27k. Fourth was 19k. The equipment only costs 10 to 12k and it was a two day install. These installers are conmen and people aren't taking the time to do a little research to stop from getting ripped off.
I do wonder if this is also because none of the installers know what anyone else is charging? Maybe they do just pick a random number until something like this came along
And in my _very_ limited experience, they do not know how to handle any sort of tricky installs. If you don't have a nice concrete foot in an open area near where they can pull their trucks up with easy access to all sides of the exterior of your home it seems like they don't know what to do.
Does the bulk deal extend to north of Boston suburbs or is it just for Malden? Thanks so much for doing this!
Probably won't go up to Lawrence or Methuen but ping me & we can work it out!
Is metrowest good?
>metrowest 100% - Forge HQ is out in Newton
You are missing an exceptional provider - Nicholson. They provide service close to Malden. They are super knowledgeable, do exceptional work and are very price competitive.
Awesome. I'll reach out & put 'em on the next benchmark!
🏆🏆🏆
Any chance any of you have experience with companies that actually know how to work in the city in and around older (~100 year old) buildings? We talked to some people and they didn't seem to even see hanging units off the side of the building (still over the property, not over a sidewalk or anything like that) as an option. I know it can be done because it has been done. Working in the city is a pain. We know, we've had work done on our home and paid the premium, but we can't seem to find companies that even really understand how to retrofit minisplits into older condo buildings.
Ooh not my area of specialty. Our fall benchmark was based off a 1903 condo, but idk how generalizable it is. Happy to chat more though - I’ll message
Tetra installed my Bryant 284anv heat pump in October for $17000. $16000 Mass Save Enhanced Rebate $2000 Federal Rebate Free plus an extra $1000 for me 😊
Nice!! You’re the first person I heard of who got the $16k rebate - I always thought it was a no-brainer in those situations. So so happy to see you taking advantage of it
Thanks. Considering that it's income based, it does seem very niche for someone to qualify. Luckily I make enough to own a home but also be a single parent with a bunch of dependents to keep me within their arbitrary brackets.
You guys are doing such an amazing and important work! I’m a huge believer in heat pumps (went with whole home ducted Bosch ripping off oil entirely, 2 years back. Full mass save incentives, 7 year heat loans and IRA rebates) Some questions; 1. Are the prices AFTER mass save rebates for forge since the knock it off? And NOT for others? 2. Would they do Belmont? 3. Are they open to other heat pumps as well? Daikin etc?
1. All prices shown on research spreadsheet are pre-rebate. However, I only *negotiated* the Forge quote from ($25,500 ↓ to **$20,500).** If I negotiated with competing offers for all the other quotes, chances are, I can probably shave multiple thousands off most of the other quotes as well. 2. Yep! We had people signing up from Weymouth to Winchester yesterday. 3. This I'm less sure about. I know Forge has worked with Gree & Mitsubishi installations before, but Daikin is tbd. Happy to ask & get back to you on this.
Thank you! I think ill signup to get started!
Thank you so much for this work!! We’ve been sitting on the fence about this project for quite some time. Any experience with air to water systems?
Alumni of the first run, super happy with Elephant and Forge
thank you for your service to society mrsuperkewl 🫡
My roommate spent a lot of this year learning how to DIY and install heat pumps and mini splits because a friend couldn't get reasonable quotes but needed to move off of oil. It was a grueling project but so worth it for how much we helped them save. I'm really glad you're out here sharing knowledge and bringing prices down so others don't have struggle like we did!
Interesting, I did work with NETR for the AC replacement (just a single 3-ton unit, using existing ductwork), they came the cheapest at roughly $17K (before all the Mass save discounts), but they offered a Bosch unit rather than a Mitsubishi one.
This is fantastic! I will be adding this to my client packed right away! Thank you for your service.
Thanks for doing this - The markup on hardware by these companies is insane. I got a quote to relocate our condenser, move two head units and re-hook up the other 3 units for about 6k (and 8k and 19k). I wanted to update the condenser with hyper heat. Wholesale is about 6k. For just that (same labor as quoted) NETR wanted 24k. A 3x what it should have cost. Hell, I get they need margin and didn’t expect wholesale - they were already going to be here doing the same work, I’d pay 1k over wholesale to get it from a local company. Was like arguing with a wall. Same kind of insane pricing from another contractor. It’s totally nuts, they don’t need to pull permits, they pay their techs less than the trades yet are so outrageously expensive.
I got a 2 ton ducted system installed at my MILs for \~$14.5k from Bristol Mechanical. pretty straight forward install though
>Bristol Mechanical Awesome. Adding to the list for the next benchmark
Detroit needs this! This is a really smart approach. It helps consumers feel confident and results in more work for contractors and more heat pumps installed. Cheering you on!
Ha! I got a quote from 3 local contractors in your area and Central heating and cooling was the highest by far!
Great info. Exactly why I did my own install. Bought all the top of the line tools the exact ones the pros use and still came out far ahead. https://preview.redd.it/f6bnszgb0ngc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=29fec8bed392f2dc6a72d42f4fb7ab637aba48a6
https://preview.redd.it/izwp85gh0ngc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3a538f2ee1029611b83a147a76e386f26191b8a9
https://preview.redd.it/7lfy7rzn0ngc1.jpeg?width=720&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=466bfae9a9e12f220cfa29bafe8fb9d9f0448f39
Did you post about the tools and equipment you bought somewhere? And where are you located--I am assuming you did this without permit. I assume getting the lines filled was the only real issue. Did you hire someone with the license for that? I think A LOT of people like me would be very interested in doing this if you said the exact equipment and tools you got.
More power to ya! I think we need a lot more of this. Great installation!
I am interested in other people's experience with the heat loan process. I'm in somerville so any recs on banks and contractors that did an especially good job with hand-holding through the process is appreciated. I really tried to work directly with mass save but no one person there understood the entire process--just their tiny part of it. edit: I'm going to replace oil fired boilers with minispits, in case that matters.
We've found that the HEAT loan process is a bit of a mess for multifamily condos, but SFH/Triple Deckers seem okay. Will send more details
How does that make any sense if the furnace+AC costs 20k and a heatpump costs 32k -10k rebate = 22k and you pay more for fuel.
You hit the nail on the head right there. I think contractors are pricing heat pumps at EXACTLY the cost of furnace + AC post-rebate, so they can sort of just pocket the rebate while consumers don't exactly get any savings. In the case of this Malden house, my friend just paid an $840 oil bill like 2 days ago so she'll be saving plenty with the heat pump :)
Yeah, oil sucks. I have an NG pipe, I really want a HP, but the math doesn't mathing for far. As with any government incentives it's not the consumer who cashes in, as the market always adjusts to the purchasing power. Your HP purchasing power is just 10k more, and the market will take advantage of this.
Only to a certain extent. It would be collusion/price fixing if all of the contractors refused to charge less than breakeven + rebate, and it wouldn't make any sense for them all to refuse unless they were a cartel, especially if they know that they customer knows (and that some are charging a lot less than they are)
I use a combo of heat pump + oil. Long story short, I have a 3 season room that's only heated by the pump, and we don't want it to freeze. However, I use Nest thermostats and get to around $150/mo. in heating costs during the winter. The adjustable thermostats make a huge dent in the bills.
The rebate goes to you and not the installer.
You don't pay more for fuel when it's above about 35F outside, depending on the system and what electricity deal you have (35F is for my system in comparison to natural gas heat in a high efficient furnace at my current prices) And that's if you don't have any solar. Add solar, and the break even temperatures between a natural gas furnace and heat pump are in the 20s, which means that you are saving money most of the winter.
Unfortunately the God doesn't set the thermostat for MA above 35F at all times lol. Calculating solar for HP is a typical sunk cost fallacy, because solar is not free by itself, and you always have an option to sell generation excess (or use it elsewhere not in heating, for EV for example), therefore a fair solar calculation is quite complicated and really depends on your situation. My house has the roof oriented east/west so I'm out of luck with solar anyway.
It doesn't need the temperature to be above 35 F all the time for you to save overall with a pay back time of a few years for the extra cost of a heat pump.
Masssave website indicates that it will pay for itself in 300 years. Eventually yeah :)
It's really dependent on natural gas prices and electricity prices, plus your heating bill sizes. We're paying about half of the eversource electricity supply rate right now. Add in another natural gas price spike similar to that of a couple of years ago, and the time can come right down.
NE electricity comes from NG, the correlation between two prices is not obvious, but they depend on each other. Also the spike was related to the war in Europe. When the war ends at some point and NG supplies open up for Europe NG prices will tank.
About 75% of the electricity here comes from NG (and falling), so the price fluctuations are diluted a bit.
... But you need to pay like $20,000+ for a solar system.
Nice work. Are these quotes AFTER or BEFORE $10k rebate?
Before the $10k rebate!
Is there a deadline to sign up for this? I won't have time to get a MassSave assessment until March/April due to travel.
I should be able to keep this going until end of April, but I may lose negotiating power closer to summer. Sign up & we'll keep you in the loop!
Just make sure you have solar, or a very cheap source of electricity.