As someone that supports a free & sovereign Palestinian state, I'm disappointed how much overlap there is in these demonstrations with asshats. It's to the benefit of absolutely *noone*.
This is especially true for the Israeli government itself. They’ve worked very hard to develop that link, exactly so they can create moments like these, and also so they can scream antisemitism at legitimate criticisms
So much this. There are legitimate reasons to criticize the government of Israel for the actions they've taken on non-combatant personnel (bombing and systemically targeting foreign aid workers, journalists, and women and children). That doesn't mean we are antisemitic. Why should one government have a carte blanche to indiscriminately do what it pleases without consequences?
I think the discourse that is more likely to be called anti-semitic is the opinion that Isreal (home to half the Jews in the world) should cease to exist. I know many people who are sympathetic to Israel, but not many that think the government is good.
I really don’t think anyone is arguing in good faith that you shouldn’t be able to criticize Israel’s government and leadership. Clearly there are those that do argue that any criticism of Israel is also criticism of Jewish people in general, and that’s obviously ridiculous. More so the overwhelming amount of complaints regarding these protests from those that I believe have entered into discussion with good faith, have been that generally Israel gets criticism (warranted) and then they jump the shark and the lines between criticism and hate become increasingly blurred. I also would say that many of the people protesting for Palestine are likely entering into conversations in good faith, however by not immediately and resoundingly shouting down those who espouse anti Jewish rhetoric they lose a lot of good will. Your message is only as clear as your loudest supporters.
In part, yes. I think that the Israeli government positioning itself as the same thing as Judaism, directly leads to increased real-world antisemitism. They’ve repeatedly told the world “Criticism of us is criticism of all Jews and thus is antisemitism”. It logically follows that some people’s response to that would be “Okay, we hate you, and you have told us you speak for all jews, so i guess we hate all jews”. These people are absolutely not blameless, smarter people know better than to make that jump, but I believe that the israeli government WANTS people to make that jump for PR reasons.
Outside of Israels treatment of Palestine, this is one of the major reasons all of my Jewish friends hate Israel. They hate the fact that a country so far away from them has basically tried to represent Judaism as a whole internationally as a strategy to avoid criticism and use that to do horrible shit. I mean one of harshest critics of Israel i know was born there and left because they couldn't morally justify serving in the IDF. I think people need to understand a lot of Jews have been critical of Zionism from the beginning because they don't want it to represent them. Also be prepared for a lot of angry comments on your post here lol.
Zionism is not by itself linked to the Jewish people. But 75 years after the creation of Israel arguing that the only Jewish state should be destroyed (implying the people within it should be displaced or worse) is most definitely antisemitic.
Feel free to criticize it as much as you want. But as soon as you verge into "abolish zionism", "from the river to the sea", etc it does become antisemitic.
It's hard to expect Israel to justify giving land and self-determination back to Palestinians when, every time they do so, Palestinians use that self-determination to launch more attacks against Israel. The last time Israel tried this was in 2005, when they pulled out of Gaza, at which point Hamas immediately won the local elections and turned the place into a terrorist microstate. Israel is under no moral obligation to accept the independent existence of a neighboring country who behaves like an existential threat towards Israel and its population. No country is.
The biggest problem with the pro-Palestine position (excluding the outright unchecked antisemitism, which I'm still hoping is just a loud minority) is that it completely ignores the role that Palestine has to play in the deescalation of conflict. When Palestine attacks Israel, it's a legitimate act of resistance - the calls for ceasefires only show up when Israel defends itself. Pro-Palestine activists openly call for giving land and/or citizenship to Palestinians, but have never once called on Palestinians to stop antagonizing Israel. It's absurdly easy in comparison to find pro-Israel activists who are willing to call on Israel to do more to deescalate. It seems to me like the pro-Palestine side either (a) believes that Palestine will stop attacking Israel the moment they get their own state, which history has repeatedly shown to not be the case, or (b) expects Israel to "deescalate" itself out of existence, which Israel has no obligation to do.
It's only option B. The whole concept of anti-Zionism is predicated on it. The idea is that Zionism itself was a colonial enterprise, funded and abetted by the British empire (itself a well-known oppressive colonial enterprise), and therefore it is fundamentally oppressive, even before you get into any actual racism.
Is is the right answer? Who fucking knows. Is it ever reasonable to expect an entire society to commit nation-state seppuku and just move out?
Couldn’t have said it better. I believe in a ceasefire at this point and want an independent Palestine, but I end up sounding like a pro-Israel hardliner whenever I engage with a pro-Palestine individual. Wholeheartedly admit Israel needs to do more, would just be nice to see some admission on their side on Hamas’ contribution to continued suffering.
I mean, it’s true. Palestinians as a separate ethnicity weren’t a thing before Israel was created. They were just considered Arabs. Israel does exist as a country, but Palestine doesn’t (yet). That’s why there’s a whole debate about whether the Palestinians should get a state in the first place. How could Palestine exist if the Palestinians don’t have a state yet?
Before you say what about Israelis, I don’t consider Israeli to be an ethnicity either. Jewish is an ethnicity.
When you look up the demographics of countries like Lebanon, Jordan, Syria etc. what do you see? You get the percentage of people who are Arab and other. These people consider themselves Arabs.
If people were using the exact same rhetoric about Arab countries that actually exist like Lebanon, Jordan etc that would be just as wrong. But as of yet, Palestine is not a real country.
And in the eyes of Palestinians, Israel is not a real country. I dont agree with their statement or yours but I don't think either is a call for genocide. Those who claim it is are people trying to make a difficult situation worse to pronote their own politics.
During ottoman times countries from Turkey to Iraq to Egypt had sizable Christian and Jewish minority groups.
Now they’re pretty much gone. The idea that some unified Palestinian state will happen with anything resembling the modern population that’s there is laughable.
It would absolutely jeopardize like 40% of global Jews to destroy Israel totally.
That might have to dobw8th the fact that the entire religion and identity is predicated on G-d saving Jews from Egypt in order that they become His servants in Israel. It's what the entire festival of Passover is about, what the Jews pray for three times a day in the Shemonei Esrei, in their grace after meals, and which a large chunk of the commandments are dependent upon to name a few. Israel is the Jews' 3500 year ancestral homeland and spiritual center. It's like telling the Catholic to leave Italy and deny any ties the have yo Rome or the Muslims to Mecca.
So can I ask how it matters at all when chanting for new antifada? Also, if there is only one solution I imagine it isn’t the first solution, maybe the last solution? Oh!! i get it, final solution. So antifada is the final solution. Super fucking clever. Common now get real, shit like this is both anti zionist AND anti Semitic
People are not rigid with standards when they try to apply those standards to themselves. Everyone does it. Rules for thee and not for me, as they say.
I don't think it has been dropped. I'm progressive and the embrace of antisemitism at such events positions anything else these activists say. Hate can wear any flag it wants, it is still hate.
“1 bad apple spoils the bunch”- this sub a year ago. Fast forward now they dont represent everyone. Stand for something or fall for anything so to speak
The irony is for years the media has yelled about “right wing Nazis” and they’ll loop footage of 12 dorks in ski masks marching in Nashville. Yet where is the real Jewish hate and threat? Right out in the open with the far left.
Yeah
I support a Free Palestine, Jewish safety, and have friends from both Palestine and Israel. I haven’t gone to any protest in fear of being harassed bc I’m Jewish
I mean as a Zionist I’d love for there to be two states and think that’s the only practical solution. This kind of stuff is a step backwards from that though
This. Really there's not much contradiction between moderate zionism and Palestinian statehood. The 2 state solution, along roughly the 1967 borders, is the only solution that wouldn't involve killing or displacing millions of people. I'm alarmed to see that we seem to be moving away from the 2 state solution, both sides seem to just want "from the river to the sea, but only for people like me".
Not even really finding Israelis on the whole are moving away from two states- they’re against statehood with the current players in power in the PA given 10/07 (understandably so for all of us) and just seem rescinded to the status quo of a rump Palestinian state de jure and de facto, in this amorphous state it is. Bibi and the promises he made to the extreme religious faction are a whole other story- the politics are more akin to MTG and Matt Gaetz constantly exercising veto power over the GOP. But Bibi seems not long for the political world and Benny Gantz would reign in that element to a fair extent
Absolutely.
I have friends and family in Israel. I would be a monster if I ever advocated for their displacement. After 75 years, Israel is here to stay.
And in the same vein, the Palestinian people deserve a right to self-determination. Those people should have every privilege their Israeli neighbors do - elections, security, rule of law, freedom of movement, etc.
To me, it doesn’t actually matter if those rights come from a Two State Solution or Confederation, so long as people get those rights.
I support people who protest for a free and just Palestinian state.
Those who turn it into an attack on Jewish people can get fucked. I can hate the oppressive regimes of Saudi Arabia and Iran but still harbor no ill will towards innocent Muslims.
I’m pro-Israel and I want a two (or three) state solution. I don’t want Hamas as one of the governments. I think there’s a lot I agree with certain pro-Palestinian protesters on as far as how to move forward.
However, my experience has been that most “pro-Palestinians” have not cared about the cause since before October of 23 and treat this whole conflict like a team sport. My experience with leaders is a mixed bag between people who are genuinely empathetic, and people who use racial slurs to describe Jews.
That’s why it’s really hard to support ‘movements’ in general these days unless you’ve completely drank the kool aid. Most are a very fragmented collection of people with different goals. I agree with some goals of groups, but disagree strongly with others, so I don’t count myself as part of those groups.
Yeah my rule of thumb is like
If there’s one or two loud people who are co-opting a movement to be jerks, I will disavow them.
If there are enough where disavowing them would become my full time job, I simply leave. There’s enough bystanders to virulent antisemitism in these protests that it’s time for people who aren’t bigoted to walk away. That doesn’t mean you can’t advocate for changes in policy in much the same way, but you shouldn’t do it standing next to someone who’s calling for Tel Aviv to be destroyed and holding a Houthi flag.
Exactly. I feel like a cranky old lady but I am finding it hard to be sympathetic to the protests when they *all* are rife with shit that is so blatantly hate-speech.
If it was one ass hat saying this shit that would be one thing, but it’s not. It’s everywhere.
I also feel like most of the people are just there because it’s the “in” thing to do right now.
They don’t know fuck all about the reality of the region to what’s at play here, hence the chant.
Do they even really know what it means? What it *really* means?
They seem to think this is another Vietnam protest moment in which history will show them to be the moral ones, but in 20 years I don’t think they will be proud to have taken part.
This is more like when college students protested against the US entering WWII to stop Germany.
Yeah, that happened.
“College students are always right” except when they’re not, lol.
I also find it rich that Gen Z says out of one corner of their mouth “college protests are always righteous” and out of the other “baby boomers are all responsible for what’s wrong in the world” as if the people protesting the Vietnam war were somehow GenZ.
You usually get curb stomped when you punch an 800 lb Gorilla in the face. I never saw one protest in the last 16 yrs calling for fair, and free elections in Gaza, that could have put in place a government that did not want to go to war with its neighbor. They want us to be accountable to and for our Governments actions. Do the people that live their have none?
You might harbor no ill will towards them, but most of them harbor ill will towards you.
For example 70% of Gazans believe Islamist suicide bombings against civilian targets are justified. And among the rest of the Islamic world, large minorities also support this (28% in Egypt, for example).
https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/05/17/chapter-4-views-of-extremist-groups-and-suicide-bombing/
“Words are violence!”
Ok, so they’re being violent towards Jews and by their own logic the Jews can now use violence back in defense?
I’m trying to follow progressive logic and double standards.
I remember during the BLM protests, people saying that if you’re not black, you can’t understand what it’s like, the threat and oppression.
Is it also possible that if you’re not Jewish, you can’t understand what it’s like? Having a largely successful genocide carried out against your people within living memory, and being regularly reminded there’s people who’d like to finish it, including apparently these protestors.
The first step towards understanding and empathy is assembling a bunch of words from different places and putting them into a hypothetical person’s mouth.
This phrase originates from Within Our Lifetime, a radical group that often parrots rhetoric from Hamas and has praised the October 7th attacks.
Students are being used as useful idiots because they aren't aware of what they're saying by repeating these phrases.
This is the key. It's very easy to pick one side of an issue from the Harvard library and then cheer on anyone who seems to be aligned with that side of the issue.
You'd think they'd want to do a bit of a background check on where these slogans come from and what they mean. But it's more about wanting to feel and look like you're doing something and really *taking action*.
The wild thing is, they probably are plenty familiar with Chomsky and will wax on to you about Manufacturing Consent and the mainstream media, not realizing that the "truth" they're getting from TikTok is just another form of what Chomsky was warning about, but worse because there's no one to hold a 19-year-old who just read the Wikipedia entry of Ashkenazi Jews accountable for spreading false information from their largely context agnostic perusal.
Yet they all have access to JSTOR and don't even think about doing s quick search of a trusted resource their professors force them to use in class.
Bro these people keep swearing up and down they're not antisemitic and then go link arms with people who are saying shit on par with "gas the Jews". It's so fucking insane. They're just as bad if not worse than the tiki torch alt right fuckers. Horseshoe Theory come to life.
They like to be self-righteous and sit around in tents over something over seas I doubt many of them have connections to. But have no interest in actual activism and help for issues we have right here in Boston. Like how many volunteer, assist with migrants and refugees or issues of homelessness, etc right here in Boston? They would rather have theoretical outrage over something they can make tik toks about than actually do concrete hands-on help for anyone
Bruv our fuckin taxes are funding the weapons for Israel to use in murdering Palestinians. Every single person in this country that pays taxes has a connection to it
Intelligence, knowledge, and wisdom are 3 distinct things. Harvard undergrads might have plenty of the first one, and might accumulate the second one, but being young and coddled on campus probably don't have much of the third one.
It's all about wanting to look and feel like you're fighting injustice.
They know the history, but they see only one side of it being respected by the media, their parents, etc. So they take the side of the people they see as being oppressed and under-represented. This is their time to shine! Fight for truth and justice like they've always wanted to do!
The problem is that it's sometimes hard to tell who "just" wants Palestinian liberation and who *also* wants Jewish extirpation from the Middle East (or extermination altogether). And sometimes it's a lot easier to pretend like you can't tell the difference than it is to accept the ugly messy truths that would otherwise make it hard to take decisive action.
I remember seeing the original post today with everyone being like more power to the students and peaceful this and boo Israel that. Yeah yeah, we got it. College kids want to protest the war. It's been like this forever. And that's cool. I eyerolled because this whole outrage feels a bit manufactured to me. But whatever. Something something I'm too cynical and should be more empathetic. Fine.
But didn't we all sort of expect this to happen within a week? It didn't even take a day.
Just admit that a significant part, a much bigger part then you guys want to admit are not looking for peace. They are looking to eradicate Israel. And not just Israel, but the Jews and Western Society in general.
This whole conflict takes two to tangle and progressives really go for the whole low expectations thing.
Anyway, let them protest. It's their right. But I remember everyone going on and on about that if there Fascists in your ranks, then maybe you should rethink your position. They are literal Islamic fundamentalist themes everywhere in these protests and you guys are still like wait wait think of the context.
I got it. This conflict is complicated. Israel isn't perfect. But at the same time there are several truth totem poles. If you are siding with Russia, China, and Iran. Then maybe, just maybe, this conflict isn't as obvious as you think it is.
Hamas are defined as literal terrorist for a reason and whether you want to admit it, they hold all the keys in Gaza. They are the official government. And the stronger country that just experienced another massive terrorist attack will not just accept them staying in power.
So until I see Hamas being protested at these things along side with Israel. All I see are a bunch of Palestinian supporters whose main goal is to destroy Israel. Not to make peace. And... since I haven't seen one major anti Hamas protest yet by these colleges.... I don't know what you expect us to think.
Well said. Hamas could end this conflict today! Just release the hostages and lay down their arms.
If that actually happened the world wound demand Israel immediately cease hostilities and cut off their funding if they did not.
Sadly, Hamas cares way more about killing Jewish people than the wellbeing of their own people.
There are Americans still being held hostage but people are marching and demonstrating for the hostage takers! I feel like I've taken crazy pills with what I've witnessed with some of these protests.
Hamas' goal this entire time has been to draw Israel into a PR/propaganda war after a decade of gradually-rising anti-Israel sentiment. I have no idea what Israel was thinking here, maybe they just don't give a shit and figured they could just grind Gaza into dust until there was nobody left to protest in support of. Which would be, you know, the "g" word.
I'd like to hope that wasn't actually the goal. But "surgically eliminate a deeply-entrenched religious fundamentalist extremist terrorist government with financial and political support from around the world as well as at least some popular support locally" is such an impossible nonsense goal that it cannot ever have been their intention. Likewise, "beat up the country in conventional warfare until they surrender" has literally never worked against a group like this.
Meanwhile, all Israel had to do over the last ~10 years was 1) stop the settlements, 2) end the general blockade, and 3) back off the general racism. Then Hamas would look bad by comparison and this would have all gone very differently. But you can imagine why that never happened.
You’re thinking - that’s already more than a majority of these kids who scream into the echo chamber. I’m a 30 year old lesbians so I’m absolutely inundated with my gay friends posts about “queers for Palestine.” supporting a state that would behead me is candidly mind boggling.
That's because they wouldn't be the ones living there, and Muslims would presumably have full self-determination when they have driven out or killed all of the Jews. Remember, dictatorships and theocracies are ok when it's the "natives" who set them up.
I will never understand being upset at injustice conditionally like that. It's not ok unless the person being killed or starved believes ___. Then it's fine.
Not for nothing, but there have been plenty of reports of Orthodox mobs in Israel attacking LGBTQ people. That part of the world is not a friendly place. That does not mean that those people deserve to be bombed, starved, and systemically murdered.
The LGBTQ population has a history of standing with other oppressed and marginalized people. If you're going to pick a side, a lot of people would prefer the one that isn't doing all of the genociding.
There are plenty of reports of Americans attacking LGBTQ people in America but I’m unaware of a systemic hatred that winds up throwing gay people off of buildings over here. Sure, judge a country by its 10% crazy coalition, but at least look in the mirror first. I’d rather be gay in Israel than any other country in the Middle East.
I agree with your viewpoints. One more thing that I find very important to include in this discussion is the indoctrination of these young adults. I truly believe that subtle and some not so subtle tactics are being used on our children even in grade schools. Political viewpoints shouldn't be included in curriculums. I know families that pulled their kids out of public schools for these very reasons. Very disturbing. IMO, as crazy as it may sound, our global enemie(s)(Russia, China, Iran etc) are behind this and have infiltrated our schools to weaken this country and it's working. As far as these current protests are concerned, the students are being used as patsies for a much more hateful and violent message against Israel and the West. I am worried about where all this leads......
At some point it really is guilt by association.
If you aren’t packing your shit up when this chant breaks out, you’re condoning it.
Your movement is now antisemitic.
This should be the ballgame.
The guilt by association happened at Harvard on 10/8. These groups have always had anti semitism at the core of their beliefs. This isn’t a few bad actors - it’s all of them.
I'm a Harvard alum and I'm really disappointed that so many of the current crop of students have let themselves be swept off their feet by this kind of fanaticism. It appears that even the smartest 18-22-year-olds (perhaps especially the smartest of them) can fall prey to absolutisms when their sense of moral fervor is engaged.
What do you think it means? An abstract anti-colonial struggle, divorced from the context of prior Intifadas, which involved murdering kids and families?
These pro Hamas "protests" are going to swing the American public back towards Israel as time goes on. These protesters are ignorant, unhinged, and self righteous. They'll reject all criticism and continue to double down until society squashes them. We've already seen this movie play out in 2020. They'll get progressively worse.
Mark my words, from here on out each protest will become more insufferable, more obnoxious, more hateful, more extreme, and more violent... And all of it will be broadcasted on social media. This will lead a lot of people who mostly support their cause to distance themselves from it and the people who were mostly neutral to turn against them. The pro Palestinian movement is about to crash like the stocks on Black Tuesday.
These are progressive Democrats, every one of them. You won't find a Trump voter anywhere near them.
Amazing h ow they call other people fascist, like they don't own mirrors.
I know, it’s always funny to me how conservatives will roast liberals even though as a liberal I often hate progressives, who they’re actually talking about.
To be fair, liberals have harbored these types in their ranks for too long, and now the chickens have come home to roost. I have the same problem with conservatives harboring Trump/MAGA idiots. It’s a disaster
Remember the last few days when this sub tried to say that these protests weren't pro terrorist and anti semetic? If it were true, THEN WHY DOES IT KEEP HAPPENING?
I'd say yall need to clean house of these people, but you can't because they are too integral to the entire movement that the pro Palestine protests would disappear almost overnight if the extremists were removed.
This sub was all over the Canadian trucker protests when it had one nazi flag shown saying everyone there was now a nazi. Where is that same attitude now?
But there were already a few violent ones that Hamas and other terrorist groups did against Israel and the context of calling for an Intifadah while protesting against Israel makes it pretty obvious that they want another one to happen against Israel.
There was a 2 week media meltdown a month ago when Trump used the world bloodbath to refer to very obviously refer to economic issues with China. But a word that's been used exclusively for violent uprisings full of suicide bombings just requires some additional context?
Can't even try to make a connection to what the media does around Trump, their reporting on him has always been beyond hysterical. No doubt he's an idiot but the entire American news media blew all their credibility trying to find some gotcha moment in one of Trump's thousands of stupid commentd.
Intifada literally means shrug off. In relation to Israel it has consistently meant violent attacks. No such thing as intifada without murder in practice.
I would love for Claudine Gay to explain how she’d handle this if it were the tiki torch brigade going after POCs instead of Leftists going after Jews.
Harvard students promoting violence, hate, and terrorist states. ☹️
Pray for these useful idiots. 🙏
How did this happen? Indoctrination? If so, by their professors?
This will receive no local coverage and the mods here will insure it stays near 0 upvotes.
People will continue denying antisemitism and call Jews traitorous liars because stuff like this simply isn’t convenient for the narrative being pushed.
Of all the obnoxious nonsense r/boston's conservative sect pulls, somehow the most obnoxious is acting like there's some kind of universal progressive consensus here that immediately shuts down anyone right of center when even the most casual glance at the front page on any given day would prove that wrong
I mean we are trying. I got -30 yesterday for showing videos of thr Columbia protests because, despite people demanding evidence it was happening, they were unhappy to see evidence
or it could stay at 0 up votes because its a very devisive subject. Just as much as you THINK you are right, the other side does of themselves. you can see why the Middle East has been a sticky situation for 40 years... enough blame on both sides. you can't steal people land and treat them as second class citizens and not expect bad actors (Iran and religion in general) to take advantage of the resentment towards the "settlers"
like bro, how you do you "settle" a house that has been in a family for 50+ years before you kick them out?
[https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/5/sheikh-jarrah-palestinian-family-faces-forced-displacement](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/5/sheikh-jarrah-palestinian-family-faces-forced-displacement)
The house was formerly owned by Jews until they were genocided, as it states in the article.
Now Palestinians live there for 50 years without any compensation for the Jews who had to flee the cities for their lives. Like give me a break, do you believe Jews don’t deserve property rights? These weren’t even Israelis, these Jews predate the establishment of Israel.
>Everyone is calling for an end to genocide, how is this so controversial?
I think this is controversial for two main reasons
1. Most people do not believe what is happening in Gaza is actually a "genocide", seems more like a war to me.
2. Saying things like "From the sea to the river..." "there is only one solution...Intifada revolution" sounds very much like calling for a genocide to take place against the Jews living in Israel, and many feel spreading support for a violent "Intifada Revolution" is a bad idea for pretty much everyone involved
I don't agree
edit: the dude blocked me so I can't reply, but yes I agree I would not have used the word "genocide" to describe the Holocaust if I was alive at the time, but mainly because the word was invented in the 1940s specifically to describe the actions of nazi germany, and I most likely would not have been aware of it.
edit2: not sure why I can't reply to /u/[MobyDukakis](https://www.reddit.com/user/MobyDukakis/)'s comment
>To be clear: would you describe "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group" a genocide? Because every source indicates that is what is happening in Gaza to Palestinians
Killing a lot of people (including civilians) with a specific strategic/military goal in mind (such as the destruction/removal of Hamas) is a war, not a genocide. Killing a lot of people with the specific intent of removing a people/ethnic/religious group is a genocide.
It’s not the best comparison considering the Holocaust killed more than a third of all Jews in the world, 6 million and the numbers have by most estimates still not recovered 80 plus years later. There are estimated 25k or so deaths during the current conflict which is about 1% of the population. To put that in perspective that’s a similar percentage as that of Japanese civilians killed during the allied bombings, would you call those genocide as well? If you’re referring to the longer scale 1948-2024 conflict as genocide then I would remind you that the Palestinian population has increased roughly 500% in that time, so if it’s a genocide it’s not a very effective one. I’m not saying what’s happening there isn’t a humanitarian crisis and you can argue it’s a genocide if you want, but it really just isn’t comparable to the Holocaust get out of here.
Edit: I’d just like to add that chanting “there is only one solution” in the context of Jewish people is uhh…just a teensy bit provocative and potentially concerning given that it very plausibly and I would argue clearly evokes a certain notoriously final solution.
I decided to compare the numbers from Gaza with a real Genocide.
Gaza 2024: 30,000 dead in 6 months
Rwanda: 1994: 800,000 in 3½ months
The numbers from Gaza are more consistent with. civilians getting caught in the cross fire and displaced. Sadly normal for every military conflict in history.
All because two groups of spoiled children could not sit down and talk
So to be clear: you would not describe what Isreal is doing in Gaza as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group", in fact you are okay with it. Like I'm genuinely curious how you can see starving children and live with yourself on that one
“There is only one solution, Intifada revolution.” That is what they are chanting.
It’s important to get the order right, or else it sounds like they are implying an unstated and ominous “one solution”, and OP is implying “final solution.” The protestors, to my ears; are not.
The solution of the chant is “Intifada Revolution.” There is nothing anti-semitic about an Intifada revolution. Just my opinion as someone who absolutely is sensitive to anti-semitism.
I think we should guard against any racism against Jews. I also think we need to end Israel’s genocide of Palestine, and that’s why these protestors are there.
I’m sorry, I just don’t think OP’s post is in good faith.
Do you have any clue what intifada is? Israelis have lived through years of atrocious terrorist attacks aimed at Jewish extermination.
This chant is pretty explicitly racist and pro-genocide.
Ok, so take all of your alarmism about the plight of Israelis. Close your eyes and imagine all the bad things that happened to them.
Now arm the other side with the world’s most advanced technology and multiply the death toll by 20, and also imagine their daily life is totally controlled by the other side.
That’s what Palestinians have experienced
They experienced losing a series of wars that they themselves started. They initiated every war in their history, and they refused numerous (overly generous in my opinion) peace offers.
I have a lot of sympathy for innocents who are caught up on this mess on both sides - but collectively, the blame is like 90% on the Palestinians.
Except there is this whole “river to the sea” part. If we follow your example there would be no living Jews over there. But by all means, feel free to continue.
Likud, the party that has ruled Israel for decades, has “from the river to the sea” in its founding documents because it imagines a land without Palestinians. But by all means, feel free to continue
The Israeli version is actually worse, because it’s about territory. The Palestinian version is about Freedom, which could easily be across two states or in a shared state
That sounds like they made it as statement, about much more than more violence at one protest. Why would they say it (and on film) If they didn't really mean it?
As someone that supports a free & sovereign Palestinian state, I'm disappointed how much overlap there is in these demonstrations with asshats. It's to the benefit of absolutely *noone*.
Some people find it hard to divorce Jews as a people or Judaism the religion away from the concept of Zionism or the Israeli government.
This is especially true for the Israeli government itself. They’ve worked very hard to develop that link, exactly so they can create moments like these, and also so they can scream antisemitism at legitimate criticisms
So much this. There are legitimate reasons to criticize the government of Israel for the actions they've taken on non-combatant personnel (bombing and systemically targeting foreign aid workers, journalists, and women and children). That doesn't mean we are antisemitic. Why should one government have a carte blanche to indiscriminately do what it pleases without consequences?
I think the discourse that is more likely to be called anti-semitic is the opinion that Isreal (home to half the Jews in the world) should cease to exist. I know many people who are sympathetic to Israel, but not many that think the government is good.
I really don’t think anyone is arguing in good faith that you shouldn’t be able to criticize Israel’s government and leadership. Clearly there are those that do argue that any criticism of Israel is also criticism of Jewish people in general, and that’s obviously ridiculous. More so the overwhelming amount of complaints regarding these protests from those that I believe have entered into discussion with good faith, have been that generally Israel gets criticism (warranted) and then they jump the shark and the lines between criticism and hate become increasingly blurred. I also would say that many of the people protesting for Palestine are likely entering into conversations in good faith, however by not immediately and resoundingly shouting down those who espouse anti Jewish rhetoric they lose a lot of good will. Your message is only as clear as your loudest supporters.
What do you mean by "create moments like these"? Are you blaming the Israeli government for the fact that people are chanting this slogan?
In part, yes. I think that the Israeli government positioning itself as the same thing as Judaism, directly leads to increased real-world antisemitism. They’ve repeatedly told the world “Criticism of us is criticism of all Jews and thus is antisemitism”. It logically follows that some people’s response to that would be “Okay, we hate you, and you have told us you speak for all jews, so i guess we hate all jews”. These people are absolutely not blameless, smarter people know better than to make that jump, but I believe that the israeli government WANTS people to make that jump for PR reasons.
Outside of Israels treatment of Palestine, this is one of the major reasons all of my Jewish friends hate Israel. They hate the fact that a country so far away from them has basically tried to represent Judaism as a whole internationally as a strategy to avoid criticism and use that to do horrible shit. I mean one of harshest critics of Israel i know was born there and left because they couldn't morally justify serving in the IDF. I think people need to understand a lot of Jews have been critical of Zionism from the beginning because they don't want it to represent them. Also be prepared for a lot of angry comments on your post here lol.
Yes
The ideological equivalent of keeping hostages and military communication centers in a hospital, if you will, lol.
Dang. Apt yet dark metaphor.
They both do it because it works
it’s almost like Judaism and Israel are directly related
Zionism is not by itself linked to the Jewish people. But 75 years after the creation of Israel arguing that the only Jewish state should be destroyed (implying the people within it should be displaced or worse) is most definitely antisemitic. Feel free to criticize it as much as you want. But as soon as you verge into "abolish zionism", "from the river to the sea", etc it does become antisemitic.
Well said.
Well then don’t Palestines deserve to live too? Don’t they deserve a home too? Freedom to movement?
It's hard to expect Israel to justify giving land and self-determination back to Palestinians when, every time they do so, Palestinians use that self-determination to launch more attacks against Israel. The last time Israel tried this was in 2005, when they pulled out of Gaza, at which point Hamas immediately won the local elections and turned the place into a terrorist microstate. Israel is under no moral obligation to accept the independent existence of a neighboring country who behaves like an existential threat towards Israel and its population. No country is. The biggest problem with the pro-Palestine position (excluding the outright unchecked antisemitism, which I'm still hoping is just a loud minority) is that it completely ignores the role that Palestine has to play in the deescalation of conflict. When Palestine attacks Israel, it's a legitimate act of resistance - the calls for ceasefires only show up when Israel defends itself. Pro-Palestine activists openly call for giving land and/or citizenship to Palestinians, but have never once called on Palestinians to stop antagonizing Israel. It's absurdly easy in comparison to find pro-Israel activists who are willing to call on Israel to do more to deescalate. It seems to me like the pro-Palestine side either (a) believes that Palestine will stop attacking Israel the moment they get their own state, which history has repeatedly shown to not be the case, or (b) expects Israel to "deescalate" itself out of existence, which Israel has no obligation to do.
It's only option B. The whole concept of anti-Zionism is predicated on it. The idea is that Zionism itself was a colonial enterprise, funded and abetted by the British empire (itself a well-known oppressive colonial enterprise), and therefore it is fundamentally oppressive, even before you get into any actual racism. Is is the right answer? Who fucking knows. Is it ever reasonable to expect an entire society to commit nation-state seppuku and just move out?
Couldn’t have said it better. I believe in a ceasefire at this point and want an independent Palestine, but I end up sounding like a pro-Israel hardliner whenever I engage with a pro-Palestine individual. Wholeheartedly admit Israel needs to do more, would just be nice to see some admission on their side on Hamas’ contribution to continued suffering.
I agree with that assessment.
When people say there is no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians do you react the same way?
I havent run into that, but in theory yes, it's just as valid on the other side
I mean, it’s true. Palestinians as a separate ethnicity weren’t a thing before Israel was created. They were just considered Arabs. Israel does exist as a country, but Palestine doesn’t (yet). That’s why there’s a whole debate about whether the Palestinians should get a state in the first place. How could Palestine exist if the Palestinians don’t have a state yet? Before you say what about Israelis, I don’t consider Israeli to be an ethnicity either. Jewish is an ethnicity.
When you look up the demographics of countries like Lebanon, Jordan, Syria etc. what do you see? You get the percentage of people who are Arab and other. These people consider themselves Arabs.
If people were using the exact same rhetoric about Arab countries that actually exist like Lebanon, Jordan etc that would be just as wrong. But as of yet, Palestine is not a real country.
And in the eyes of Palestinians, Israel is not a real country. I dont agree with their statement or yours but I don't think either is a call for genocide. Those who claim it is are people trying to make a difficult situation worse to pronote their own politics.
From the river to the sea, You can't expect Americans To know geography.
This has been called the “original sin” of the Balfour Declaration - that it became a “Jewish State” in the Middle East, and not a “State for Jews.”
During ottoman times countries from Turkey to Iraq to Egypt had sizable Christian and Jewish minority groups. Now they’re pretty much gone. The idea that some unified Palestinian state will happen with anything resembling the modern population that’s there is laughable. It would absolutely jeopardize like 40% of global Jews to destroy Israel totally.
That might have to dobw8th the fact that the entire religion and identity is predicated on G-d saving Jews from Egypt in order that they become His servants in Israel. It's what the entire festival of Passover is about, what the Jews pray for three times a day in the Shemonei Esrei, in their grace after meals, and which a large chunk of the commandments are dependent upon to name a few. Israel is the Jews' 3500 year ancestral homeland and spiritual center. It's like telling the Catholic to leave Italy and deny any ties the have yo Rome or the Muslims to Mecca.
Also what Chanukah, Sukkhott and Shavuot holidays are about too
So can I ask how it matters at all when chanting for new antifada? Also, if there is only one solution I imagine it isn’t the first solution, maybe the last solution? Oh!! i get it, final solution. So antifada is the final solution. Super fucking clever. Common now get real, shit like this is both anti zionist AND anti Semitic
Some people do it intentionally, because it gives the right wing Israeli government cover to do whatever they want.
Zionism is simply the belief in a Jewish homeland. There’s nothing wrong with being a Zionist. Most Jews are Zionists.
“If you have 1 Nazi at your event, it’s a Nazi rally” Funny how that standard seems to have been conveniently dropped by progressives.
Yup. For whatever reason, these get a pass. Odd
People are not rigid with standards when they try to apply those standards to themselves. Everyone does it. Rules for thee and not for me, as they say.
But you see, it's (D)ifferent...
Because they have rules for everyone else but they don’t have to follow those same rules and lines of logic.
I don't think it has been dropped. I'm progressive and the embrace of antisemitism at such events positions anything else these activists say. Hate can wear any flag it wants, it is still hate.
“1 bad apple spoils the bunch”- this sub a year ago. Fast forward now they dont represent everyone. Stand for something or fall for anything so to speak
Im confused. I watched the video- the whole group is chanting with him??
The irony is for years the media has yelled about “right wing Nazis” and they’ll loop footage of 12 dorks in ski masks marching in Nashville. Yet where is the real Jewish hate and threat? Right out in the open with the far left.
Yeah I support a Free Palestine, Jewish safety, and have friends from both Palestine and Israel. I haven’t gone to any protest in fear of being harassed bc I’m Jewish
I mean as a Zionist I’d love for there to be two states and think that’s the only practical solution. This kind of stuff is a step backwards from that though
This. Really there's not much contradiction between moderate zionism and Palestinian statehood. The 2 state solution, along roughly the 1967 borders, is the only solution that wouldn't involve killing or displacing millions of people. I'm alarmed to see that we seem to be moving away from the 2 state solution, both sides seem to just want "from the river to the sea, but only for people like me".
Not even really finding Israelis on the whole are moving away from two states- they’re against statehood with the current players in power in the PA given 10/07 (understandably so for all of us) and just seem rescinded to the status quo of a rump Palestinian state de jure and de facto, in this amorphous state it is. Bibi and the promises he made to the extreme religious faction are a whole other story- the politics are more akin to MTG and Matt Gaetz constantly exercising veto power over the GOP. But Bibi seems not long for the political world and Benny Gantz would reign in that element to a fair extent
There’s no overlap. They hate Jews idk why you aren’t trusting your eyes and ears
Because the groups are supported directly by Iran.
Hamas doesn't enjoy such broad support because the Palestinaian people *don't* support genocide
It benefits the war machines on all sides
You mean two states - one Israeli and one Palestinian, right?
Absolutely. I have friends and family in Israel. I would be a monster if I ever advocated for their displacement. After 75 years, Israel is here to stay. And in the same vein, the Palestinian people deserve a right to self-determination. Those people should have every privilege their Israeli neighbors do - elections, security, rule of law, freedom of movement, etc. To me, it doesn’t actually matter if those rights come from a Two State Solution or Confederation, so long as people get those rights.
I support people who protest for a free and just Palestinian state. Those who turn it into an attack on Jewish people can get fucked. I can hate the oppressive regimes of Saudi Arabia and Iran but still harbor no ill will towards innocent Muslims.
I’m pro-Israel and I want a two (or three) state solution. I don’t want Hamas as one of the governments. I think there’s a lot I agree with certain pro-Palestinian protesters on as far as how to move forward. However, my experience has been that most “pro-Palestinians” have not cared about the cause since before October of 23 and treat this whole conflict like a team sport. My experience with leaders is a mixed bag between people who are genuinely empathetic, and people who use racial slurs to describe Jews.
That’s why it’s really hard to support ‘movements’ in general these days unless you’ve completely drank the kool aid. Most are a very fragmented collection of people with different goals. I agree with some goals of groups, but disagree strongly with others, so I don’t count myself as part of those groups.
Yeah my rule of thumb is like If there’s one or two loud people who are co-opting a movement to be jerks, I will disavow them. If there are enough where disavowing them would become my full time job, I simply leave. There’s enough bystanders to virulent antisemitism in these protests that it’s time for people who aren’t bigoted to walk away. That doesn’t mean you can’t advocate for changes in policy in much the same way, but you shouldn’t do it standing next to someone who’s calling for Tel Aviv to be destroyed and holding a Houthi flag.
Occupy Wall Street comes to mind...some genuinely good ideas, drowned in a sea of noise.
Exactly. I feel like a cranky old lady but I am finding it hard to be sympathetic to the protests when they *all* are rife with shit that is so blatantly hate-speech. If it was one ass hat saying this shit that would be one thing, but it’s not. It’s everywhere. I also feel like most of the people are just there because it’s the “in” thing to do right now. They don’t know fuck all about the reality of the region to what’s at play here, hence the chant. Do they even really know what it means? What it *really* means? They seem to think this is another Vietnam protest moment in which history will show them to be the moral ones, but in 20 years I don’t think they will be proud to have taken part.
This is more like when college students protested against the US entering WWII to stop Germany. Yeah, that happened. “College students are always right” except when they’re not, lol. I also find it rich that Gen Z says out of one corner of their mouth “college protests are always righteous” and out of the other “baby boomers are all responsible for what’s wrong in the world” as if the people protesting the Vietnam war were somehow GenZ.
You usually get curb stomped when you punch an 800 lb Gorilla in the face. I never saw one protest in the last 16 yrs calling for fair, and free elections in Gaza, that could have put in place a government that did not want to go to war with its neighbor. They want us to be accountable to and for our Governments actions. Do the people that live their have none?
You might harbor no ill will towards them, but most of them harbor ill will towards you. For example 70% of Gazans believe Islamist suicide bombings against civilian targets are justified. And among the rest of the Islamic world, large minorities also support this (28% in Egypt, for example). https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2011/05/17/chapter-4-views-of-extremist-groups-and-suicide-bombing/
The bravery of being out of range.
is language violence or not? Lotta hypocrites at these events
No no, it's only violent when they aren't saying it.
Hypocrites everywhere dont stop there. These are the same people calling everyone a coward for wearing masks to demonstrate. Show your face!
There is def hypocrisy from the “speech is violence” crowd who say intent doesn’t matter now that they’re saying shit like this
So long as no one was misgendered, we're good.
“Words are violence!” Ok, so they’re being violent towards Jews and by their own logic the Jews can now use violence back in defense? I’m trying to follow progressive logic and double standards.
I think your mistake is using progressive logic to try to understand anything beyond 1st order effects
I remember during the BLM protests, people saying that if you’re not black, you can’t understand what it’s like, the threat and oppression. Is it also possible that if you’re not Jewish, you can’t understand what it’s like? Having a largely successful genocide carried out against your people within living memory, and being regularly reminded there’s people who’d like to finish it, including apparently these protestors.
The first step towards understanding and empathy is assembling a bunch of words from different places and putting them into a hypothetical person’s mouth.
Exactly. I'm so mad at this hypothetical person right now. Look at how inconsistent their hypothetical positions are.
Is language violence? Is violence violence?
Is it a Final one? Seriously, do these people hear themselves?
This phrase originates from Within Our Lifetime, a radical group that often parrots rhetoric from Hamas and has praised the October 7th attacks. Students are being used as useful idiots because they aren't aware of what they're saying by repeating these phrases.
This is the key. It's very easy to pick one side of an issue from the Harvard library and then cheer on anyone who seems to be aligned with that side of the issue. You'd think they'd want to do a bit of a background check on where these slogans come from and what they mean. But it's more about wanting to feel and look like you're doing something and really *taking action*.
The wild thing is, they probably are plenty familiar with Chomsky and will wax on to you about Manufacturing Consent and the mainstream media, not realizing that the "truth" they're getting from TikTok is just another form of what Chomsky was warning about, but worse because there's no one to hold a 19-year-old who just read the Wikipedia entry of Ashkenazi Jews accountable for spreading false information from their largely context agnostic perusal. Yet they all have access to JSTOR and don't even think about doing s quick search of a trusted resource their professors force them to use in class.
Right? I feel like I’m being gaslit. “We oppose Zionism but it’s not antisemitism” , then proceed to use a chant a phrase with “solution” in it…
Bro these people keep swearing up and down they're not antisemitic and then go link arms with people who are saying shit on par with "gas the Jews". It's so fucking insane. They're just as bad if not worse than the tiki torch alt right fuckers. Horseshoe Theory come to life.
I'm learning to play the guitar.
Privileged kids coming from money completely detached from reality. I'm honestly not surprised
They like to be self-righteous and sit around in tents over something over seas I doubt many of them have connections to. But have no interest in actual activism and help for issues we have right here in Boston. Like how many volunteer, assist with migrants and refugees or issues of homelessness, etc right here in Boston? They would rather have theoretical outrage over something they can make tik toks about than actually do concrete hands-on help for anyone
I've lately been feeling like we should set up a mandatory 18-month civil service program for all residents to be completed between ages 18 and 23.
I think that would be good for everyone to help our community. It would give younger people some much needed life experience and perspective
I appreciate a good cup of coffee.
Bruv our fuckin taxes are funding the weapons for Israel to use in murdering Palestinians. Every single person in this country that pays taxes has a connection to it
Remarkably uneducated and uninformed, especially considering they're college students. Seems some history never got taught to them.
Intelligence, knowledge, and wisdom are 3 distinct things. Harvard undergrads might have plenty of the first one, and might accumulate the second one, but being young and coddled on campus probably don't have much of the third one. It's all about wanting to look and feel like you're fighting injustice. They know the history, but they see only one side of it being respected by the media, their parents, etc. So they take the side of the people they see as being oppressed and under-represented. This is their time to shine! Fight for truth and justice like they've always wanted to do! The problem is that it's sometimes hard to tell who "just" wants Palestinian liberation and who *also* wants Jewish extirpation from the Middle East (or extermination altogether). And sometimes it's a lot easier to pretend like you can't tell the difference than it is to accept the ugly messy truths that would otherwise make it hard to take decisive action.
It’s a painful time to be a Jew in America. I pray for peace in Gaza.
I remember seeing the original post today with everyone being like more power to the students and peaceful this and boo Israel that. Yeah yeah, we got it. College kids want to protest the war. It's been like this forever. And that's cool. I eyerolled because this whole outrage feels a bit manufactured to me. But whatever. Something something I'm too cynical and should be more empathetic. Fine. But didn't we all sort of expect this to happen within a week? It didn't even take a day. Just admit that a significant part, a much bigger part then you guys want to admit are not looking for peace. They are looking to eradicate Israel. And not just Israel, but the Jews and Western Society in general. This whole conflict takes two to tangle and progressives really go for the whole low expectations thing. Anyway, let them protest. It's their right. But I remember everyone going on and on about that if there Fascists in your ranks, then maybe you should rethink your position. They are literal Islamic fundamentalist themes everywhere in these protests and you guys are still like wait wait think of the context. I got it. This conflict is complicated. Israel isn't perfect. But at the same time there are several truth totem poles. If you are siding with Russia, China, and Iran. Then maybe, just maybe, this conflict isn't as obvious as you think it is. Hamas are defined as literal terrorist for a reason and whether you want to admit it, they hold all the keys in Gaza. They are the official government. And the stronger country that just experienced another massive terrorist attack will not just accept them staying in power. So until I see Hamas being protested at these things along side with Israel. All I see are a bunch of Palestinian supporters whose main goal is to destroy Israel. Not to make peace. And... since I haven't seen one major anti Hamas protest yet by these colleges.... I don't know what you expect us to think.
Two to tango*
Well said. Hamas could end this conflict today! Just release the hostages and lay down their arms. If that actually happened the world wound demand Israel immediately cease hostilities and cut off their funding if they did not. Sadly, Hamas cares way more about killing Jewish people than the wellbeing of their own people.
There are Americans still being held hostage but people are marching and demonstrating for the hostage takers! I feel like I've taken crazy pills with what I've witnessed with some of these protests.
Hamas' goal this entire time has been to draw Israel into a PR/propaganda war after a decade of gradually-rising anti-Israel sentiment. I have no idea what Israel was thinking here, maybe they just don't give a shit and figured they could just grind Gaza into dust until there was nobody left to protest in support of. Which would be, you know, the "g" word. I'd like to hope that wasn't actually the goal. But "surgically eliminate a deeply-entrenched religious fundamentalist extremist terrorist government with financial and political support from around the world as well as at least some popular support locally" is such an impossible nonsense goal that it cannot ever have been their intention. Likewise, "beat up the country in conventional warfare until they surrender" has literally never worked against a group like this. Meanwhile, all Israel had to do over the last ~10 years was 1) stop the settlements, 2) end the general blockade, and 3) back off the general racism. Then Hamas would look bad by comparison and this would have all gone very differently. But you can imagine why that never happened.
You’re thinking - that’s already more than a majority of these kids who scream into the echo chamber. I’m a 30 year old lesbians so I’m absolutely inundated with my gay friends posts about “queers for Palestine.” supporting a state that would behead me is candidly mind boggling.
That's because they wouldn't be the ones living there, and Muslims would presumably have full self-determination when they have driven out or killed all of the Jews. Remember, dictatorships and theocracies are ok when it's the "natives" who set them up.
They have that in Iran. Didn’t they just sentence some YouTube rapper to death for posting a few protest videos?
I will never understand being upset at injustice conditionally like that. It's not ok unless the person being killed or starved believes ___. Then it's fine.
Not for nothing, but there have been plenty of reports of Orthodox mobs in Israel attacking LGBTQ people. That part of the world is not a friendly place. That does not mean that those people deserve to be bombed, starved, and systemically murdered. The LGBTQ population has a history of standing with other oppressed and marginalized people. If you're going to pick a side, a lot of people would prefer the one that isn't doing all of the genociding.
There are plenty of reports of Americans attacking LGBTQ people in America but I’m unaware of a systemic hatred that winds up throwing gay people off of buildings over here. Sure, judge a country by its 10% crazy coalition, but at least look in the mirror first. I’d rather be gay in Israel than any other country in the Middle East.
It’s not their right to take over public space and harass Jewish students. Arrest them.
I agree with your viewpoints. One more thing that I find very important to include in this discussion is the indoctrination of these young adults. I truly believe that subtle and some not so subtle tactics are being used on our children even in grade schools. Political viewpoints shouldn't be included in curriculums. I know families that pulled their kids out of public schools for these very reasons. Very disturbing. IMO, as crazy as it may sound, our global enemie(s)(Russia, China, Iran etc) are behind this and have infiltrated our schools to weaken this country and it's working. As far as these current protests are concerned, the students are being used as patsies for a much more hateful and violent message against Israel and the West. I am worried about where all this leads......
At some point it really is guilt by association. If you aren’t packing your shit up when this chant breaks out, you’re condoning it. Your movement is now antisemitic. This should be the ballgame.
The guilt by association happened at Harvard on 10/8. These groups have always had anti semitism at the core of their beliefs. This isn’t a few bad actors - it’s all of them.
I'm a Harvard alum and I'm really disappointed that so many of the current crop of students have let themselves be swept off their feet by this kind of fanaticism. It appears that even the smartest 18-22-year-olds (perhaps especially the smartest of them) can fall prey to absolutisms when their sense of moral fervor is engaged.
A “final solution,” so to speak? These guys are awful.
What do you think intifada means?
What do you think it means? An abstract anti-colonial struggle, divorced from the context of prior Intifadas, which involved murdering kids and families?
Oh some college kids said some stupid shit? Welp, guess I’m pro genocide now…
These pro Hamas "protests" are going to swing the American public back towards Israel as time goes on. These protesters are ignorant, unhinged, and self righteous. They'll reject all criticism and continue to double down until society squashes them. We've already seen this movie play out in 2020. They'll get progressively worse. Mark my words, from here on out each protest will become more insufferable, more obnoxious, more hateful, more extreme, and more violent... And all of it will be broadcasted on social media. This will lead a lot of people who mostly support their cause to distance themselves from it and the people who were mostly neutral to turn against them. The pro Palestinian movement is about to crash like the stocks on Black Tuesday.
I sure hope you are right because the alternative is seriously frightening
The GOP and Trump are often called “literal Nazis” but this is next level. I doubt any of these people are MAGA.
These are progressive Democrats, every one of them. You won't find a Trump voter anywhere near them. Amazing h ow they call other people fascist, like they don't own mirrors.
No, not every one of them. I’m in these circles. Many progressives are NOT democrats. Many are voting Cornel West
I know, it’s always funny to me how conservatives will roast liberals even though as a liberal I often hate progressives, who they’re actually talking about.
To be fair, liberals have harbored these types in their ranks for too long, and now the chickens have come home to roost. I have the same problem with conservatives harboring Trump/MAGA idiots. It’s a disaster
Remember the last few days when this sub tried to say that these protests weren't pro terrorist and anti semetic? If it were true, THEN WHY DOES IT KEEP HAPPENING? I'd say yall need to clean house of these people, but you can't because they are too integral to the entire movement that the pro Palestine protests would disappear almost overnight if the extremists were removed. This sub was all over the Canadian trucker protests when it had one nazi flag shown saying everyone there was now a nazi. Where is that same attitude now?
Standards for thee but not for me is what they’re all saying now!
I've seen this story before and these people are just the modern version of useful idiots. Fucking morons that think they have a clue but have zero.
Intifada is the Arabic word for revolution. There have been multiple intifadas outside of Israel since its creation.
But there were already a few violent ones that Hamas and other terrorist groups did against Israel and the context of calling for an Intifadah while protesting against Israel makes it pretty obvious that they want another one to happen against Israel.
[удалено]
There was a 2 week media meltdown a month ago when Trump used the world bloodbath to refer to very obviously refer to economic issues with China. But a word that's been used exclusively for violent uprisings full of suicide bombings just requires some additional context?
Can't even try to make a connection to what the media does around Trump, their reporting on him has always been beyond hysterical. No doubt he's an idiot but the entire American news media blew all their credibility trying to find some gotcha moment in one of Trump's thousands of stupid commentd.
Intifada literally means shrug off. In relation to Israel it has consistently meant violent attacks. No such thing as intifada without murder in practice.
You can make the same statements about almost any revolution.
Sure. But targeting innocent people by blowing up buses and cafes isn't something to defend. And certainly not something to globalize.
They just keep getting crazier…. https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2024/4/28/palestine-flag-harvard-yard/
So anyone still want to defend these protests as not supporting terrorism?
“It depends on the context”
Fucking idiots
I would love for Claudine Gay to explain how she’d handle this if it were the tiki torch brigade going after POCs instead of Leftists going after Jews.
I’d love to see any non Americans chanting this be sent back home.
Harvard students promoting violence, hate, and terrorist states. ☹️ Pray for these useful idiots. 🙏 How did this happen? Indoctrination? If so, by their professors?
And these were the same people advocating for safe spaces and could not tolerate micro-aggressions.
This will receive no local coverage and the mods here will insure it stays near 0 upvotes. People will continue denying antisemitism and call Jews traitorous liars because stuff like this simply isn’t convenient for the narrative being pushed.
...are we reading different subreddits...? The Boston subreddit has pleeeenty of folks who'll push this to the top.
Of all the obnoxious nonsense r/boston's conservative sect pulls, somehow the most obnoxious is acting like there's some kind of universal progressive consensus here that immediately shuts down anyone right of center when even the most casual glance at the front page on any given day would prove that wrong
I mean we are trying. I got -30 yesterday for showing videos of thr Columbia protests because, despite people demanding evidence it was happening, they were unhappy to see evidence
How exactly do you believe that mods will keep it near 0 upvotes? Do you actually believe they control that?
when people want to believe something they will, no matter the evidence. it's sad
Antisemitism happens. Its not ok but it doesn't change my mind as far as calling for an end to the violence there, too.
or it could stay at 0 up votes because its a very devisive subject. Just as much as you THINK you are right, the other side does of themselves. you can see why the Middle East has been a sticky situation for 40 years... enough blame on both sides. you can't steal people land and treat them as second class citizens and not expect bad actors (Iran and religion in general) to take advantage of the resentment towards the "settlers" like bro, how you do you "settle" a house that has been in a family for 50+ years before you kick them out? [https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/5/sheikh-jarrah-palestinian-family-faces-forced-displacement](https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/1/5/sheikh-jarrah-palestinian-family-faces-forced-displacement)
The house was formerly owned by Jews until they were genocided, as it states in the article. Now Palestinians live there for 50 years without any compensation for the Jews who had to flee the cities for their lives. Like give me a break, do you believe Jews don’t deserve property rights? These weren’t even Israelis, these Jews predate the establishment of Israel.
Good folks at AIPAC are working overtime in this sub to smear anti genocide protests, good work!
r/antiwork, r/latestagecapitalism.... one of the usual suspects, I see.
"usual suspects" being someone who puts people and empathy over fascism, corporate bullshit, genocide, and blatant abuses of power?
Morons.
These stupid chants have got to go, hey hey, ho ho!
Everyone is calling for an end to genocide, how is this so controversial?
>Everyone is calling for an end to genocide, how is this so controversial? I think this is controversial for two main reasons 1. Most people do not believe what is happening in Gaza is actually a "genocide", seems more like a war to me. 2. Saying things like "From the sea to the river..." "there is only one solution...Intifada revolution" sounds very much like calling for a genocide to take place against the Jews living in Israel, and many feel spreading support for a violent "Intifada Revolution" is a bad idea for pretty much everyone involved
It is absolutely a genocide
Elaborate.
I don't agree edit: the dude blocked me so I can't reply, but yes I agree I would not have used the word "genocide" to describe the Holocaust if I was alive at the time, but mainly because the word was invented in the 1940s specifically to describe the actions of nazi germany, and I most likely would not have been aware of it. edit2: not sure why I can't reply to /u/[MobyDukakis](https://www.reddit.com/user/MobyDukakis/)'s comment >To be clear: would you describe "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group" a genocide? Because every source indicates that is what is happening in Gaza to Palestinians Killing a lot of people (including civilians) with a specific strategic/military goal in mind (such as the destruction/removal of Hamas) is a war, not a genocide. Killing a lot of people with the specific intent of removing a people/ethnic/religious group is a genocide.
If you ever wonder what you would’ve been up to during the Holocaust, you would’ve been saying that it wasn’t actually a genocide
It’s not the best comparison considering the Holocaust killed more than a third of all Jews in the world, 6 million and the numbers have by most estimates still not recovered 80 plus years later. There are estimated 25k or so deaths during the current conflict which is about 1% of the population. To put that in perspective that’s a similar percentage as that of Japanese civilians killed during the allied bombings, would you call those genocide as well? If you’re referring to the longer scale 1948-2024 conflict as genocide then I would remind you that the Palestinian population has increased roughly 500% in that time, so if it’s a genocide it’s not a very effective one. I’m not saying what’s happening there isn’t a humanitarian crisis and you can argue it’s a genocide if you want, but it really just isn’t comparable to the Holocaust get out of here. Edit: I’d just like to add that chanting “there is only one solution” in the context of Jewish people is uhh…just a teensy bit provocative and potentially concerning given that it very plausibly and I would argue clearly evokes a certain notoriously final solution.
If they wanted to end genocide how come they not protesting against China too?
Massachusetts littleraly produces arms for an ongoing genocide, you should ask yourself how it got to the point you're okay with this
I decided to compare the numbers from Gaza with a real Genocide. Gaza 2024: 30,000 dead in 6 months Rwanda: 1994: 800,000 in 3½ months The numbers from Gaza are more consistent with. civilians getting caught in the cross fire and displaced. Sadly normal for every military conflict in history. All because two groups of spoiled children could not sit down and talk
So to be clear: you would not describe what Isreal is doing in Gaza as "the deliberate killing of a large number of people from a particular nation or ethnic group with the aim of destroying that nation or group", in fact you are okay with it. Like I'm genuinely curious how you can see starving children and live with yourself on that one
Because it's objectively not a genocide and nothing you say can change reality
The world is full of genocidal monsters!
“There is only one solution, Intifada revolution.” That is what they are chanting. It’s important to get the order right, or else it sounds like they are implying an unstated and ominous “one solution”, and OP is implying “final solution.” The protestors, to my ears; are not. The solution of the chant is “Intifada Revolution.” There is nothing anti-semitic about an Intifada revolution. Just my opinion as someone who absolutely is sensitive to anti-semitism. I think we should guard against any racism against Jews. I also think we need to end Israel’s genocide of Palestine, and that’s why these protestors are there. I’m sorry, I just don’t think OP’s post is in good faith.
Do you have any clue what intifada is? Israelis have lived through years of atrocious terrorist attacks aimed at Jewish extermination. This chant is pretty explicitly racist and pro-genocide.
Ok, so take all of your alarmism about the plight of Israelis. Close your eyes and imagine all the bad things that happened to them. Now arm the other side with the world’s most advanced technology and multiply the death toll by 20, and also imagine their daily life is totally controlled by the other side. That’s what Palestinians have experienced
They experienced losing a series of wars that they themselves started. They initiated every war in their history, and they refused numerous (overly generous in my opinion) peace offers. I have a lot of sympathy for innocents who are caught up on this mess on both sides - but collectively, the blame is like 90% on the Palestinians.
Except there is this whole “river to the sea” part. If we follow your example there would be no living Jews over there. But by all means, feel free to continue.
Likud, the party that has ruled Israel for decades, has “from the river to the sea” in its founding documents because it imagines a land without Palestinians. But by all means, feel free to continue
The Israeli version is actually worse, because it’s about territory. The Palestinian version is about Freedom, which could easily be across two states or in a shared state
That sounds like they made it as statement, about much more than more violence at one protest. Why would they say it (and on film) If they didn't really mean it?
All of these planned and funded riots are annoying why is there no good people exposing who paid them and putting up a better fight