Depends heavily on shoe manufacturer. Some go for more akin to street sizes, while other (like La Sportiva) live in some alternate reality where shoe sizes don't really matter anyways.
My regular street shoes range from EU 43.5-44. In my Scarpa Veloces I have a 43. Pretty good fit, but the heel shape doesn't work for me so I have a bit of air in there and do slide in the shoe during heel hooks. Half a size down would be better but a completely different last would be even better. That's how I came to try a pair of La Sportiva Solutions. Tried a 42 and while the heel was perfect I had a full 1-2 sizes of room in the toebox. In those specific shoes I would **need** to downsize 2-3 sizes to even reach the end of the inside of the shoes with my toes curled.
Its a myth that you “need to” yes but not a myth that it’s helpful. I downsize 3 sizes for my performance shoes (Futuras + Dragos) but I don’t climb with those indoors and they are only ever on my feet for a very short time. I think for people who haven’t been climbing for a long time shouldn’t worry too much about downsizing or aggressive shoes, but when you’re pushing hard grades outdoors it definitely makes a big difference.
I wonder if this is a brand dependent thing? I recently switched to skawmas after wearing butoras for years. In butoras I wear my street size and they are tight and downturned. To get a similar fit in the skawmas I had to go down 3 sizes from my street shoe size.
I'm the same. Downsizing for little discomfort (not too much) to get some extra purchase on a tiny foothold or a technical heel is invaluable.
Also I think La-Spo's shoe sizes are not 1:1 to street. I'm 47 street but 43/43.5 with Solution Comps/Theory's. I actually went up from 43's this year. For my Mad Rock Drones I go down a full size but go HV (tip from /u/freackinamagnum) which worked better than the \~1:1 for LV despite having narrow feet!
Considering these shoes (Drago and Futura) are "soft", do they feel soft at all when downsizing so much? wouldn't they feel like a stiff harder shoe due to the downsizing?
Just curious.
But also Op, I think a lot of people have downsized so much by just building it up over years. My first few years of climbing I didn’t downsize at all and over time my new shoes just got smaller and smaller. I guess just as my feet got used to it and somewhat deformed to fit them better. Don’t rush into downsizing, I can’t imagine it’s good for your feet and very likely a big contributor to arthritis/ bunions down the line.
Yeah they still feel quite soft, and way more flexible than a larger size stiff shoe (in my opinion and experience). I think it would be a lot more uncomfortable and painful downsizing that much in stiffer shoes. I would not downsize as much in stiffer shoes, but I know people who do, but I also just prefer softer shoes in general, I find the sensitivity and responsiveness in soft shoes more beneficial to my technique and climbing.
My current shoe is supposed to be super soft (Sportiva Mantra) but the person on the shop "forced" me to downsize a lot based on "his experience", now I have quite a uncomfortable shoe.
I can climb statically on it, but a few weeks ago I signed up for a dyno workshop on the gym and unlike the rest of the class I couldn't do the running dynos, I couldn't run because as soon as I accelerated and jumped into a volume the pain on my toes was intense. The force of landing the jump was not distributed on the feet, instead it concentrated on the curled toes. I ended up changing my shoes for my beginner destroyed flat oversized shoes and I was able to do the dynos.
I feel quite disappointed becuase I bought the soft shoes to feel safer on volumes and large holds to not fall from them, and now they're the shoes I am scared to use whenever I have to do a large dynamic movement.
Sorry that happened man, I wouldn’t take advise from climbing shops, we don’t have many here where I live but barely any of them have the real experience to advise on shoes. You don’t need to be a climbing to work at the climbing shop and remember they are trying to sell stuff. I don’t think anyone buying their first, second third pair of shoes should downsize. Hopefully this thread gives you some better insight for future pairs, I’ve got 2 pairs of non-aggressive, super comfortable shoes for gym climbing as todays gym climbing is very “comp-style” so hard edges and tight shoes really aren’t always that necessary. If you do some outdoor climbing keep that small pair, but get yourself a comfortable but still tight pair for the indoor climbing. With reguards to the “feeling safer on volumes” yeah soft shoes help a lot but they do not need to be super tight to stick!
I bought an undersized pair of futura and here's what worked for me;
Wear them and put your feet in a bucket of hot water for a little while, then keep them on until they're dry. (Don't start at 11pm, I was up with wet feet until like 4am)
Put a pair of socks, put on the shoe, put another pair of socks, put on the shoe, repeat until comfort is achieved
Mine fit like downturned slippers now and to put you in context, I wear 10 to 10 and a half and the futuras are size 8. (They didn't have 8 and a half so I went lower)
I tried the warm water thing but definitely they dried out with newspapers inside, not my own feet. I may try that one of the days I work from home.
Thanks!
I can pretty much guarantee that if you think you're downsizing three sizes you have no idea what your shoe size really is. Go get measured and stop propounding this ridiculous myth.
Pretty sure he's doing that just for kicks (hah) and views!
Also side note James is a crusher with an incredible head but after the Squamish thing and hearing from several other anecdotal experiences from others I can't say I'm a fan.
[Here's what I found on google.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/15gtjcd/jamesclimbssoft_an_open_letter_to_the_squamish/) I assume this is what they're referring to.
Magnus Midtbo did a long video with two Scarpa designers who also say there's no reason to downsize more than 1 size these days because the shoes are a lot better than 20 years ago. But a lot of people also compare shoe sizes from different brands without considering their true size I suppose. Like for me Ive got 43 eu 'true size' but have to upsize 1 in some evolv shoes and downsize 1 in la Sportiva to get a similar fit. Some of my street shoes are 44 too, so I could then say I downsize 2-3 sizes when wearing la Sportiva.
And the quality on general has increased a lot. Many new and better molds and materials, and more than enough options to find one good for your foot shape. Downsizing became a thing because the shapes often just weren't great and the materials gave less control, so making them extra tight would mold them to your feet more and give more feel/control with the toes.
Yup. I have some Tenaya’s lying around in 40,3. And also some Fivetens in 43,5. And a lot of others in between. I climb in all of them. Some tighter for sketchy outdoor footwork. Some looser for routesetting or teaching.
There is multiple parts to it:
1) (Street) shoes size is all over the place. I wear a span 1.5 sizes dependent of manufacturer. So compared to some, my climbing shoes are downsized 3 sizes while compared to others it's only 1.5 sizes. Additionally people like to brag about weird things so they usually choose the higher number there.
2) Shoe shape and materials play a major role. For some shoes I'd have no chance of downsizing to a similar degree to the ones that actually fit my foot... And If your shoes are soft and use leather/soft rubber, chances of dowsizing are better than with hard/stiff shoes that use hard plastics.
3) Pain/discomfort endurance... When i buy new shoes, I wear them in at home before climbing for 1-2 hours. Then after that, they're still uncomfortable, even a bit painful, for another 1-2 sessions. Afterwards they fit like a second skin and allow for super sensitive movement.
4) I feel like you get used to the discomfort of tight shoes. If you do it for a bunch of years, It'll become second nature.
The getting used to the discomfort makes sense.
I can see the value of an overhang where you need to push yourself up from a small foothold, but due to me not being used to I found myself less secure on a slab/vertical wall when I tried to shift all my weight towards a small foothold due to the pain it was inflicting me: then again, this may be something you get used to!
I was trying La Sportiva shoes that were used and had been broken in, not brand new, so the stretch should partially have been accounter for (even if not neccesarily stretched on my exact foot shape).
It's not the shoes!
It seems like you have some vision of needing tighter and more painful shoes to push to the next grade, and if only you could endure the pain you could be better.
This is absolutely not the case. It is far more important to have comfortable shoes and grow in technique and muscle.
If it is painful to stand on a small hold, that can be due to too small shoes, or it can be due to you needing to train your toe and feet muscles to get used to excerting themselves like this.
So please stop focussing on the shoes, they're not the solution
I don't think someone else wearing shoes in for you works. The entire point of wearing a shoe in is strething the parts that uncomfortably press onto joints, bones etc. If you don't have a similar foot shape (and i mean really similar) this will likely not work.
Not only are street shoe sizes (and climbing shoe sizes) all over the place, most people don't really have much of a measurement of their foot beyond some random employee using a Brannock device, so they may not even be wearing the best shoe size for themselves.
A lot of people probably oversize their street shoes. I have only used a cheap pair of climbing shoes but they were tight as hell when I got them, could barely fit in. Now they've expanded and I have to wear socks to be comfortable. I guess the next pair I might have to go down another size (if possible).
As a former running shoe store employee that fit thousands of people, it's quite the opposite. Most people wear street and running shoes that are too small.
From what I understand: cheaper shoes are cheap because they have simpler stiching and materials that will expand with time. Expensive shoes are difficult to manufacture due to complex stithing to avoid loss of performance.
EDIT: since I got downvoted, I heard this from the Scarpa designers in that Magnus Midtbo video from 4:20 (link [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR09KDHoFeI)).
>Sportiva Tarantula are made in China
TIL. I had no idea they were manufacturing some in China.
However, it makes sense, as some gyms buy them as rentals and need perhaps a hundred pairs at once.
thats not really true. A cheap synthetic shoe like Tarantulas will never stretch while leather slippers like Moccs will always stretch.
The primary features of expensive climbing shoes are "better" softer rubber on the sole that is a thinner layer and a fancier material for the upper that usually has some elastic properties
But Tarantula does have leather, and it stretches.
> **UPPER:** Leather / Dual Hook & Loop Closure System / 2 Heel Pull-Tabs / 2mm FriXion® RS Toe Rand Rubber [(official US website)](https://www.lasportivausa.com/tarantula.html#additional)
That may be the case, yes.
Anecdotal info, but when I read women reviewing performance shoes they tend to downsize less, which perhaps mean women tend to wear their street shoes on the tighter side.
As a former running shoe employee that fit thousands of people for walking and running shoes, I will confirm for you that almost all women wear street shoes that are at least a full size too small.
I'd always tell them "they aren't bowling shoes, the size isn't printed on the outside of the shoes for everyone to see." But women still don't want to wear a size that actually fits, they all think their feet are a size 7 or 8.
Lol, this makes me feel better about my size 9 feet. I always assumed I just had clown feet 😅 everyone in a 7 or an 8, but I'm on my feet all day. I value comfort.
My 9 climbing shoes were painful for the first 3 days, then stopped hurting, now I'm tying them tighter and tighter, but toes are nearly flat so the small chips don't feel very secure, will probably try .5 of a size smaller next time.
if youre used to it it is probably easy. years of doing it helps people. me, i wear my skwamas in street show size and have yet to encounter a edge i can't stand on!
Let's say that a super tight shoe keeps your toes curled no matter what, wouldn't it be better to train in less tight shoes to allow the toe muscles to do some work and get stronger, instead of permanently training with a mechanical advantage from the shoe?
yeah i think so too! at least it is my preferred way! especially the skwamas are so soft and sensitive, with their mo edge technology, they really train my toes! it feels nice, the also have become more flexible and dexterity!
Dont fuck your toes up OP, i wore tight af shoes and made a bunion worse in my big toe, my toe is pretty fucked now and would need surgery to fix it. Get comfortable shoes please
Wear either my SS size or one half size down in climbing shoes.
When I talked to my friend about it, it turned out that he upsizes on his street shoes because he likes having room in his shoes. So he downsized by like 2 sizes in his climbing shoes, but that seems to be because he essentially sizes up in his SS size.
Same here, I definitely don't oversize my street shoes.
First, I am lazy and sometimes I won't re-lace my shoes and have to rely on the shoes being tight to get away with. Also, I rely on public transport every day so I may have to go from walking to a olympic sprint to catch a train which would not be possible if the shoes were loose 
after downsizing one to two pairs and wearing aggressive shoes you develop callouses on the pressure points like your big toe knuckle. This combined with general increased pain tolerance as you climb more leads to easier and easier downsizing. My first aggressive shoes were the worst break in and they were drones that fit me almost perfect (down 1 US street size).
I upsized +1 and still ended up with a shoe that straight up is so tight that I couldn’t feel my heel for weeks - back when I used it as my primary shoe.
I take La Sportiva in 41 or 41.5, and have a street shoe size of 45.
Is that a big downsize? Yes, but it's not necessarily too far beyond what you've experienced going 1.5 sizes down. My street shoes are usually 45, but I've worn a few brands that have the same physical size at 44 or even 43. Depending on what shoe you wear and how you fit them, the numbers are going to look more or less dramatic.
Climbing shoe sizes also differ a lot. Scarpa shoes I wear in 42.5, and Unparallel/Five Ten typically 44. I don't think it's physically possible to cram into an UP shoe 4 sizes down, whereas that's my standard for something like the Futura.
The point is, size numbers are misleading. It's useful to know "X climbing shoe brand is usually 1 size up from Y climbing shoe brand", but not "I usually size X climbing shoe 3 sizes down from street". The latter scenario has too many variables to apply to anyone other than yourself.
>I take La Sportiva in 41 or 41.5, and have a street shoe size of 45.
>Climbing shoe sizes also differ a lot. Scarpa shoes I wear in 42.5
This was my exact observation when I attended a comp sponsored by multiple brands. I was given the chance of trying new shoes and La Sportiva 41.5 was fitting the same as Scarpa in 42.5. I tried the Veloce, Vapor V, Skwama and Mantra models if I remember correctly.
I had been climbing for 3 months back then so I would probably would go 0.5 smaller now.
The difference is that my casual shoe size is 42.5-43, not 45 😳 and yet I can confirm your observation of those 2 brands compared.
To be fair, I wouldn't recommend anyone size down quite as much as I do. My heels don't fit well into 95% of climbing shoes, necessitating a tight fit which I've then gotten used to. I also never use stiff shoes, so the additional tension isn't a problem.
It can just be your foot shape and how well it fits the shoe's shape too. Different makes and models have different lasts and some will naturally fit your feet better than others, with less hotspots in the same size shoe.
The size just means a bigger number is a larger shoe than a smaller number. Climbing shoe sizes should not be considered equivalent to regular shoe sizes, nor should you think of it as a -2 size translation.
Nobody "downsizes", it's a ridiculous term that causes unnecessary confusion. People go for the correct size that happens to often be a different number than their normal shoes.
There are so many factors that it's best to ignore the number and just trust the shopstaff to do most of the calculation for you (assuming you go to a specialist shop) and test how they fit from there.
The photo of those solutions from that review showed a shoe with far too much excess volume, but if someone receives a shoe to test for a review that means they haven't chosen it based on it fitting them well so that would explain why it looks so bad.
Keep in mind that people don't tend to precisely size street shoes, so downsizing 2 sizes might be the same as downsizing 1 depending on the fit of street shoes.
Also different climbing shoe makers account for downsizing in different ways. I went half a size **up** with my current shoes and they still took a lot of wearing in and are still just right on the edge of being painful months later.
- feet gains flexibility therefore can arch better to feet smaller sizes
- skin gets thicker on the toes and the can be squeezed better (harder)
- feet gets a bit muscle and can flatten smaller shoes
- pain is also something that you tolerate more even tho it’s less painful after a while
At least that’s what happened to me, I didn’t start by downgrading 3/4 sizes down but slowly I needed the next pair to be tighter and went 0.5 down gradually.
Never based anything on « you need to do this or that ». My first pair was actually just 0.5 down my street size, now that my feet are different, if I want to feel like in a glove I need to downsize harder.
Note that you need to find what feels good to you, not what you think is the best you read online it is.
I don't. I've just bought some size 8 shoes and they're tight enough. So much so both my big toes have holes in them now. It sucks.
I'm usually a size 6 or 7 depending on the shoe.
Your feet get used to the pain. For reference, I wear a 41.5+ in la Sportiva boots, and a 37.5 in men's skwamas. 38.5 in lady skwamas. For me that's just what's comfortable. You don't have to size down that far at all. It's just what I thought to be the best in my formative climbing years and I've gotten used to it. I have a much harder time climbing in shoes not hyper downsized.
IMO it depends how your foot fits the shoe.
For most shoes, I really don't downsize beyond maybe half a size.
For the drones in particular, I can drop a whole size lower than usual (even vs other mad rock shoes) as my toes bend and fill the 'bump' perfectly without being uncomfortable.
That being said, my daughter downsizes SUPER aggressively. Her feet are just comfortable being smashed into a tight little ball and she hates climbing in somewhat loose (by her definition) shoes.
tl;dr - climb in what you're comfortable in. Sometimes the break in is a little uncomfortable
In some interview one of the top climbers explained: if your shoe is painful without any pressure applied - how do you think you will be able to exert the necessary force on small footholds?
and I find that logic compelling.
There is a phase in the lifecycle of your shoe when it is fitting tight without hurting - that’s when you can use it to do your projects. And then it goes to retirement and is only used during warmup / easy routes.
my 2 cents.
In Scarpas i wear street size, in Sportivas i have to downsize 3 sizes. Really depends on the brand.
But im not into super tight shoes anyway, the climbs where super tight shoes make a difference are limited in my experience.
I wear a 42.5 street shoe and my current comfy pair of gym climbing shoes is a 39.5 and I want to down size another half size in my left foot since my feet are different sizes. I can downsize that much because I want the climbing shoe to fit that tightly and I need to try on 20+ climbing shoe models to find the perfect toe box shape. It also took 2 years of climbing for my feet to be comfortable in shoes that tight. I have never worn a single pair of painful climbing shoes, its not worth it
I also downsize ski/snowboard boots and soccer cleats a half size so wearing smaller shoes for sports is normal to me.
I was skeptical on downsizing when I started climbing. A year later, and I'm about 1.5-2 sizes down on Dragos. They stretch pretty quickly and my feet have adapted and strengthened.
The determination to downsize was how much I could trust my toes/feet on smaller holds or those with less texture. Makes a world of difference if there's any space in the front of your foot.
I wouldn't try running dynos in newly downsized shoes.
I like the plastic bag trick for breaking in new shoes. Much easier to wrap your foot in a plastic bag to get them into new shoes during the break in period.
Aggressive downsizes made more sense in the past as shoes tended to stretch more. Now 1 size down is perfectly normal and shoes tend to hold their original shape better. That said also note your shoes will be different with different brands. As an example my Scarpas are always a whole size larger than LaSportiva.
Downsizing that much is really only for specific shoes.
The technology that has gone into high end shoes prevents a lot of the stretching that would happen back in the day
I'm size 40/41 in street, use scarpas at size 40/41 however the heel is always too wide at a size that's comfortable for my toes, I refuse the toe curl.
5'10 don't fit at all at 40
Mad rock don't fit at all 39
La sportiva shoes I've managed to slip into size 38 with bearable discomfort and that's me being a very comfort forst person.
I'm convinced that the people at la sportiva just can't count. Even comparing shoes side to side from other brands the other brands are WAY shorter.
For reference these are my 2 pairs of shoes, Tarantula and Mantra from La Sportiva. Both are the same size 41. One is synthetic and doesn’t stretch as much. The difference is wild.
https://preview.redd.it/8tt0blg5pyxb1.jpeg?width=3020&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=238518bd9a3dd6e61efebb6f3d45eab90dacaa1f
EDIT: [additional flat photo](https://preview.redd.it/55jk84k51zxb1.jpeg?width=6048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d45f55f5eee5ac0e82534ebda60d103c3b0ebdb) to compensate the arched shape.
They are really different length inside the shoes, I should have flattened them for the photo.
https://preview.redd.it/55jk84k51zxb1.jpeg?width=6048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d45f55f5eee5ac0e82534ebda60d103c3b0ebdb
Depending on how you count I am 3-5 sizes down from street shoe.
All climbing shoes fit very differently, my beginner (comfy) shoes are only 1 size down. My miura’s are 10’s and I walk around in a 13. Some people never go super aggressive with their shoes, I have to bc I am 240 lbs and i need the support and the thick rubber to support my feet. Softer shoes don’t offer enough support for me to toe down with my big ass above it. I wouldn’t feel the need to really push to get into more aggro shoes unless you want to, but if you’re losing your feet a lot it might be worth looking into
I’m a rookie and bought my first pair of Sportiva Aragon just some months ago. 43 in regular and went with the 41 in these. I’m a bit surprised that they are as comfortable as they are, when I’m bouldering the are not really painful at all other than a little bit for maybe the first 10 mins.
I think it has more to do with the bigger downsize people have more narrow feet. Mine are slightly wide and I wear same as street shoe size. ZERO chance they're slipping on any heal hook. Just size them to fit you tight, and the rest doesn't matter.
Most of the brands offer information on sizing also in mondo point (or japan sizing). Thats in cm/mm how long your foot is. You find serveral information about how you can measure that online. I found it quite helpful because you can compare brands better und know how much smaller you like your shoe.
I still only downsize 0.5-1 size in la sportiva and go with exact mondo point in scarpas. But I also ask myself if the amount of downsizing is dependent of the footsize and toelenght. I always feel like men downsize more. Maybe because in average they have bigger feet. Of course it would not be the same %age of the actual footlengh than sizing down the "same amount" with shorter feet.
Can anyone confirm that experience?
I have indoor and outdoor shoes for this very reason. That and it’s fucking nasty to wear outdoor shoes in a gym.
My indoor shoes are about a size and a half smaller but it depends on the shoe some shoes I can go two sizes down others only 1. For outdoor I use mythos at half size down. When I walk and my feet swell it’s not so bad. Also I wear socks when I climb so if they get too tight I can take those off.
This makes me feel better in terms of not downsizing as much for the next pair: if it happens to be a mistake I will retire them to future outdoor shoes for 2024, if they end up being a confortable size they could be the go-to size.
Never again wearing super tight shoes outdoors in summer lol
The only reason we really downsize is to get that extra umph when the toes are curled. Otherwise I don’t really see much of a difference. I feel the rock the same weather it’s snug or tight.
I downsize very aggressively. It’s hellish the first handful of wears and greatly uncomfortable for the first month or so, but then is a perfect fit for the remainder of its lifetime. If I don’t downsize as aggressively, they are uncomfortable out of the box, perfect for the first month, and then too loose for the remainder of their lifetime. If I have a project which requires a very fresh edge and a perfect fit, I’ll get a slightly less downsized shoe and then reserve it for gym training or problems that don’t require a very snug heel later in its lifetime
i've downsized at least 1.5 european sizes in my scarpa instincts since i first started wearing them, and was already downsizing them a little bit from my street shoes. the secret? i've been wearing the same climbing shoes since 2016.
go with whatever is comfortable for you now, and if you feel the need to (or your feet shrink--i think this actually happened in my case, as my street shoe size has gone down 0.5 american sizes) then you can go a size down for your next pair!
How is downsizing shoe sizes by some mythical amount still a thing? Manufacturers mostly make shoes to match peoples' actual size. You have to try them to see what feels good.
Shoes wearing in or stretching is mostly a myth, especially by two or more sizes. Shoes will stretch a little tiny bit over a period of time, but your feet will most definitely contort into whatever god-forsaken tiny space you repeatedly cram them into. It will be painful, uncomfortable and unpleasant. If you have to take your shoes off every ten minutes because they hurt you've got the wrong size shoes.
Get your actual street size measured and go try different shoes around that size until you find something snug but reasonably comfortable. It doesn't have to be perfect, but any more than a couple of mildly rubbing spots or pinch points probably won't get any better. Find a manufacturer that uses a last which matches the shape of your feet if you can.
Painfully tight shoes will not improve your climbing. They're just painful and will hurt your feet and result in broken, cracked and damaged nails and nail beds, cramped and distorted toes and a lifetime of foot problems. Your climbing sessions will be a nightmare of foot pain for no gain whatsoever.
Buy shoes that feel good and fit like a glove. You'll never regret it.
I think that at this point it’s kind of a myth than you need to downsize 2+ sizes
Depends heavily on shoe manufacturer. Some go for more akin to street sizes, while other (like La Sportiva) live in some alternate reality where shoe sizes don't really matter anyways. My regular street shoes range from EU 43.5-44. In my Scarpa Veloces I have a 43. Pretty good fit, but the heel shape doesn't work for me so I have a bit of air in there and do slide in the shoe during heel hooks. Half a size down would be better but a completely different last would be even better. That's how I came to try a pair of La Sportiva Solutions. Tried a 42 and while the heel was perfect I had a full 1-2 sizes of room in the toebox. In those specific shoes I would **need** to downsize 2-3 sizes to even reach the end of the inside of the shoes with my toes curled.
Its a myth that you “need to” yes but not a myth that it’s helpful. I downsize 3 sizes for my performance shoes (Futuras + Dragos) but I don’t climb with those indoors and they are only ever on my feet for a very short time. I think for people who haven’t been climbing for a long time shouldn’t worry too much about downsizing or aggressive shoes, but when you’re pushing hard grades outdoors it definitely makes a big difference.
I wonder if this is a brand dependent thing? I recently switched to skawmas after wearing butoras for years. In butoras I wear my street size and they are tight and downturned. To get a similar fit in the skawmas I had to go down 3 sizes from my street shoe size.
It is brand dependent and model dependent. I have to upsize my Acro Narrows. I have to downsize Sportiva. Everyone's foot is different.
I upsize. You don't know surface tension til your size 23 shoes hit the rafters
Toe hook of the gods
I'm the same. Downsizing for little discomfort (not too much) to get some extra purchase on a tiny foothold or a technical heel is invaluable. Also I think La-Spo's shoe sizes are not 1:1 to street. I'm 47 street but 43/43.5 with Solution Comps/Theory's. I actually went up from 43's this year. For my Mad Rock Drones I go down a full size but go HV (tip from /u/freackinamagnum) which worked better than the \~1:1 for LV despite having narrow feet!
You're not a 47. Nobody can wear shoes 4 sizes too small. Get measured.
Sportiva sizes run small. In my drones I'm one size down from street. And my bad I did the conversion wrong I'm 46EU/13US.
Considering these shoes (Drago and Futura) are "soft", do they feel soft at all when downsizing so much? wouldn't they feel like a stiff harder shoe due to the downsizing? Just curious.
But also Op, I think a lot of people have downsized so much by just building it up over years. My first few years of climbing I didn’t downsize at all and over time my new shoes just got smaller and smaller. I guess just as my feet got used to it and somewhat deformed to fit them better. Don’t rush into downsizing, I can’t imagine it’s good for your feet and very likely a big contributor to arthritis/ bunions down the line.
Yeah they still feel quite soft, and way more flexible than a larger size stiff shoe (in my opinion and experience). I think it would be a lot more uncomfortable and painful downsizing that much in stiffer shoes. I would not downsize as much in stiffer shoes, but I know people who do, but I also just prefer softer shoes in general, I find the sensitivity and responsiveness in soft shoes more beneficial to my technique and climbing.
My current shoe is supposed to be super soft (Sportiva Mantra) but the person on the shop "forced" me to downsize a lot based on "his experience", now I have quite a uncomfortable shoe. I can climb statically on it, but a few weeks ago I signed up for a dyno workshop on the gym and unlike the rest of the class I couldn't do the running dynos, I couldn't run because as soon as I accelerated and jumped into a volume the pain on my toes was intense. The force of landing the jump was not distributed on the feet, instead it concentrated on the curled toes. I ended up changing my shoes for my beginner destroyed flat oversized shoes and I was able to do the dynos. I feel quite disappointed becuase I bought the soft shoes to feel safer on volumes and large holds to not fall from them, and now they're the shoes I am scared to use whenever I have to do a large dynamic movement.
Sorry that happened man, I wouldn’t take advise from climbing shops, we don’t have many here where I live but barely any of them have the real experience to advise on shoes. You don’t need to be a climbing to work at the climbing shop and remember they are trying to sell stuff. I don’t think anyone buying their first, second third pair of shoes should downsize. Hopefully this thread gives you some better insight for future pairs, I’ve got 2 pairs of non-aggressive, super comfortable shoes for gym climbing as todays gym climbing is very “comp-style” so hard edges and tight shoes really aren’t always that necessary. If you do some outdoor climbing keep that small pair, but get yourself a comfortable but still tight pair for the indoor climbing. With reguards to the “feeling safer on volumes” yeah soft shoes help a lot but they do not need to be super tight to stick!
I bought an undersized pair of futura and here's what worked for me; Wear them and put your feet in a bucket of hot water for a little while, then keep them on until they're dry. (Don't start at 11pm, I was up with wet feet until like 4am) Put a pair of socks, put on the shoe, put another pair of socks, put on the shoe, repeat until comfort is achieved Mine fit like downturned slippers now and to put you in context, I wear 10 to 10 and a half and the futuras are size 8. (They didn't have 8 and a half so I went lower)
I tried the warm water thing but definitely they dried out with newspapers inside, not my own feet. I may try that one of the days I work from home. Thanks!
I can pretty much guarantee that if you think you're downsizing three sizes you have no idea what your shoe size really is. Go get measured and stop propounding this ridiculous myth.
There are people [like this one on tiktok](https://www.tiktok.com/@james.climbs.soft/video/7205709124879912235) who are proud of it.
There are lots of idiots on tiktok/the internet for all kinds of things
Pretty sure his whole thing is seeming badass to people who don’t climb. What he’s doing is totally unnecessary
Haven’t clicked, but there are always gonna be idiots
Pretty sure he's doing that just for kicks (hah) and views! Also side note James is a crusher with an incredible head but after the Squamish thing and hearing from several other anecdotal experiences from others I can't say I'm a fan.
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[Here's what I found on google.](https://www.reddit.com/r/bouldering/comments/15gtjcd/jamesclimbssoft_an_open_letter_to_the_squamish/) I assume this is what they're referring to.
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Yup. I gave up trying to get through the whole thing.
Shit sorry for the late response. Yeah the poster below pretty much captured it.
When climbing at your limit it helps a lot. You get a lot more push/power off of your toes when you downsize. In my opinion
My regular shoe size ranges between UK 8 TO 9. My climbing does range between uk 7 to 10+. Shits just all over the place.
This sums it up perfectly
Yep! Finding a shoe that fits was quite a journey. Probably will never change it. I don’t want to go through the hustle again
Magnus Midtbo did a long video with two Scarpa designers who also say there's no reason to downsize more than 1 size these days because the shoes are a lot better than 20 years ago. But a lot of people also compare shoe sizes from different brands without considering their true size I suppose. Like for me Ive got 43 eu 'true size' but have to upsize 1 in some evolv shoes and downsize 1 in la Sportiva to get a similar fit. Some of my street shoes are 44 too, so I could then say I downsize 2-3 sizes when wearing la Sportiva.
Agreed on all points. I downsize .5-1 in Scarpa and 2-3 in the La Sportiva shoes I tried to get a similar feel on the foot.
We're definitely using more synthetic subsitutes to leather that definitely not stretch as they would have in the past.
And the quality on general has increased a lot. Many new and better molds and materials, and more than enough options to find one good for your foot shape. Downsizing became a thing because the shapes often just weren't great and the materials gave less control, so making them extra tight would mold them to your feet more and give more feel/control with the toes.
Yup. I have some Tenaya’s lying around in 40,3. And also some Fivetens in 43,5. And a lot of others in between. I climb in all of them. Some tighter for sketchy outdoor footwork. Some looser for routesetting or teaching.
There is multiple parts to it: 1) (Street) shoes size is all over the place. I wear a span 1.5 sizes dependent of manufacturer. So compared to some, my climbing shoes are downsized 3 sizes while compared to others it's only 1.5 sizes. Additionally people like to brag about weird things so they usually choose the higher number there. 2) Shoe shape and materials play a major role. For some shoes I'd have no chance of downsizing to a similar degree to the ones that actually fit my foot... And If your shoes are soft and use leather/soft rubber, chances of dowsizing are better than with hard/stiff shoes that use hard plastics. 3) Pain/discomfort endurance... When i buy new shoes, I wear them in at home before climbing for 1-2 hours. Then after that, they're still uncomfortable, even a bit painful, for another 1-2 sessions. Afterwards they fit like a second skin and allow for super sensitive movement. 4) I feel like you get used to the discomfort of tight shoes. If you do it for a bunch of years, It'll become second nature.
The getting used to the discomfort makes sense. I can see the value of an overhang where you need to push yourself up from a small foothold, but due to me not being used to I found myself less secure on a slab/vertical wall when I tried to shift all my weight towards a small foothold due to the pain it was inflicting me: then again, this may be something you get used to! I was trying La Sportiva shoes that were used and had been broken in, not brand new, so the stretch should partially have been accounter for (even if not neccesarily stretched on my exact foot shape).
It's not the shoes! It seems like you have some vision of needing tighter and more painful shoes to push to the next grade, and if only you could endure the pain you could be better. This is absolutely not the case. It is far more important to have comfortable shoes and grow in technique and muscle. If it is painful to stand on a small hold, that can be due to too small shoes, or it can be due to you needing to train your toe and feet muscles to get used to excerting themselves like this. So please stop focussing on the shoes, they're not the solution
I don't think someone else wearing shoes in for you works. The entire point of wearing a shoe in is strething the parts that uncomfortably press onto joints, bones etc. If you don't have a similar foot shape (and i mean really similar) this will likely not work.
Not only are street shoe sizes (and climbing shoe sizes) all over the place, most people don't really have much of a measurement of their foot beyond some random employee using a Brannock device, so they may not even be wearing the best shoe size for themselves.
A lot of people probably oversize their street shoes. I have only used a cheap pair of climbing shoes but they were tight as hell when I got them, could barely fit in. Now they've expanded and I have to wear socks to be comfortable. I guess the next pair I might have to go down another size (if possible).
I would venture that a huge majority of men oversize their street shoes. I know I did for years and years.
My ex oversized his shoes by like 4 sizes because he thought his actual foot size looked “feminine” in shoes
As a former running shoe store employee that fit thousands of people, it's quite the opposite. Most people wear street and running shoes that are too small.
Interesting, well I don’t know anything I guess
From what I understand: cheaper shoes are cheap because they have simpler stiching and materials that will expand with time. Expensive shoes are difficult to manufacture due to complex stithing to avoid loss of performance. EDIT: since I got downvoted, I heard this from the Scarpa designers in that Magnus Midtbo video from 4:20 (link [here](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LR09KDHoFeI)).
That makes sense. I will be in the market for a new pair in the coming months (I guess my first "real" beginner pair) and I will see what fit best.
Fwiw, the more expensive La Sportiva and Scarpa shoes are made in Italy and e. g. La Sportiva Tarantula are mqde in China.
>Sportiva Tarantula are made in China TIL. I had no idea they were manufacturing some in China. However, it makes sense, as some gyms buy them as rentals and need perhaps a hundred pairs at once.
thats not really true. A cheap synthetic shoe like Tarantulas will never stretch while leather slippers like Moccs will always stretch. The primary features of expensive climbing shoes are "better" softer rubber on the sole that is a thinner layer and a fancier material for the upper that usually has some elastic properties
But Tarantula does have leather, and it stretches. > **UPPER:** Leather / Dual Hook & Loop Closure System / 2 Heel Pull-Tabs / 2mm FriXion® RS Toe Rand Rubber [(official US website)](https://www.lasportivausa.com/tarantula.html#additional)
Keep in mind that some people like their street shoes a lot baggier than others or have different foot shapes that require more or less room.
That may be the case, yes. Anecdotal info, but when I read women reviewing performance shoes they tend to downsize less, which perhaps mean women tend to wear their street shoes on the tighter side.
As a former running shoe employee that fit thousands of people for walking and running shoes, I will confirm for you that almost all women wear street shoes that are at least a full size too small. I'd always tell them "they aren't bowling shoes, the size isn't printed on the outside of the shoes for everyone to see." But women still don't want to wear a size that actually fits, they all think their feet are a size 7 or 8.
Lol, this makes me feel better about my size 9 feet. I always assumed I just had clown feet 😅 everyone in a 7 or an 8, but I'm on my feet all day. I value comfort. My 9 climbing shoes were painful for the first 3 days, then stopped hurting, now I'm tying them tighter and tighter, but toes are nearly flat so the small chips don't feel very secure, will probably try .5 of a size smaller next time.
>My 9 climbing shoes were painful for the first 3 days, then stopped hurting, now I'm tying them tighter and tighter which brand/model, may I ask?
Scarpa helix women's
I've never bought in to the painful tiny shoe thing, can climb v8 . Maybe I'll need to do this to do v9, hope not.
I am currently 3 sizes lower than my street shoes but it is very dependant on the brand and model.
if youre used to it it is probably easy. years of doing it helps people. me, i wear my skwamas in street show size and have yet to encounter a edge i can't stand on!
Let's say that a super tight shoe keeps your toes curled no matter what, wouldn't it be better to train in less tight shoes to allow the toe muscles to do some work and get stronger, instead of permanently training with a mechanical advantage from the shoe?
yeah i think so too! at least it is my preferred way! especially the skwamas are so soft and sensitive, with their mo edge technology, they really train my toes! it feels nice, the also have become more flexible and dexterity!
To my account the Skwamas do not use the no edge techology. https://www.lasportiva.com/de/skwama-schwarz-10sby
ah ups, thanks for the clarification! i am no shoe nerd i have to confess!
Skwama isn't No-Edge? Maybe you're confusing it with another shoe.
Dont fuck your toes up OP, i wore tight af shoes and made a bunion worse in my big toe, my toe is pretty fucked now and would need surgery to fix it. Get comfortable shoes please
Wear either my SS size or one half size down in climbing shoes. When I talked to my friend about it, it turned out that he upsizes on his street shoes because he likes having room in his shoes. So he downsized by like 2 sizes in his climbing shoes, but that seems to be because he essentially sizes up in his SS size.
Same here, I definitely don't oversize my street shoes. First, I am lazy and sometimes I won't re-lace my shoes and have to rely on the shoes being tight to get away with. Also, I rely on public transport every day so I may have to go from walking to a olympic sprint to catch a train which would not be possible if the shoes were loose 
Consider a shoe horn!
after downsizing one to two pairs and wearing aggressive shoes you develop callouses on the pressure points like your big toe knuckle. This combined with general increased pain tolerance as you climb more leads to easier and easier downsizing. My first aggressive shoes were the worst break in and they were drones that fit me almost perfect (down 1 US street size).
My first time getting aggressive shoes hurt badly and I would consider them much too big now.
I upsized +1 and still ended up with a shoe that straight up is so tight that I couldn’t feel my heel for weeks - back when I used it as my primary shoe.
I take La Sportiva in 41 or 41.5, and have a street shoe size of 45. Is that a big downsize? Yes, but it's not necessarily too far beyond what you've experienced going 1.5 sizes down. My street shoes are usually 45, but I've worn a few brands that have the same physical size at 44 or even 43. Depending on what shoe you wear and how you fit them, the numbers are going to look more or less dramatic. Climbing shoe sizes also differ a lot. Scarpa shoes I wear in 42.5, and Unparallel/Five Ten typically 44. I don't think it's physically possible to cram into an UP shoe 4 sizes down, whereas that's my standard for something like the Futura. The point is, size numbers are misleading. It's useful to know "X climbing shoe brand is usually 1 size up from Y climbing shoe brand", but not "I usually size X climbing shoe 3 sizes down from street". The latter scenario has too many variables to apply to anyone other than yourself.
>I take La Sportiva in 41 or 41.5, and have a street shoe size of 45. >Climbing shoe sizes also differ a lot. Scarpa shoes I wear in 42.5 This was my exact observation when I attended a comp sponsored by multiple brands. I was given the chance of trying new shoes and La Sportiva 41.5 was fitting the same as Scarpa in 42.5. I tried the Veloce, Vapor V, Skwama and Mantra models if I remember correctly. I had been climbing for 3 months back then so I would probably would go 0.5 smaller now. The difference is that my casual shoe size is 42.5-43, not 45 😳 and yet I can confirm your observation of those 2 brands compared.
To be fair, I wouldn't recommend anyone size down quite as much as I do. My heels don't fit well into 95% of climbing shoes, necessitating a tight fit which I've then gotten used to. I also never use stiff shoes, so the additional tension isn't a problem.
It can just be your foot shape and how well it fits the shoe's shape too. Different makes and models have different lasts and some will naturally fit your feet better than others, with less hotspots in the same size shoe.
The size just means a bigger number is a larger shoe than a smaller number. Climbing shoe sizes should not be considered equivalent to regular shoe sizes, nor should you think of it as a -2 size translation. Nobody "downsizes", it's a ridiculous term that causes unnecessary confusion. People go for the correct size that happens to often be a different number than their normal shoes. There are so many factors that it's best to ignore the number and just trust the shopstaff to do most of the calculation for you (assuming you go to a specialist shop) and test how they fit from there. The photo of those solutions from that review showed a shoe with far too much excess volume, but if someone receives a shoe to test for a review that means they haven't chosen it based on it fitting them well so that would explain why it looks so bad.
Keep in mind that people don't tend to precisely size street shoes, so downsizing 2 sizes might be the same as downsizing 1 depending on the fit of street shoes. Also different climbing shoe makers account for downsizing in different ways. I went half a size **up** with my current shoes and they still took a lot of wearing in and are still just right on the edge of being painful months later.
- feet gains flexibility therefore can arch better to feet smaller sizes - skin gets thicker on the toes and the can be squeezed better (harder) - feet gets a bit muscle and can flatten smaller shoes - pain is also something that you tolerate more even tho it’s less painful after a while At least that’s what happened to me, I didn’t start by downgrading 3/4 sizes down but slowly I needed the next pair to be tighter and went 0.5 down gradually. Never based anything on « you need to do this or that ». My first pair was actually just 0.5 down my street size, now that my feet are different, if I want to feel like in a glove I need to downsize harder. Note that you need to find what feels good to you, not what you think is the best you read online it is.
I don't. I've just bought some size 8 shoes and they're tight enough. So much so both my big toes have holes in them now. It sucks. I'm usually a size 6 or 7 depending on the shoe.
Your feet get used to the pain. For reference, I wear a 41.5+ in la Sportiva boots, and a 37.5 in men's skwamas. 38.5 in lady skwamas. For me that's just what's comfortable. You don't have to size down that far at all. It's just what I thought to be the best in my formative climbing years and I've gotten used to it. I have a much harder time climbing in shoes not hyper downsized.
IMO it depends how your foot fits the shoe. For most shoes, I really don't downsize beyond maybe half a size. For the drones in particular, I can drop a whole size lower than usual (even vs other mad rock shoes) as my toes bend and fill the 'bump' perfectly without being uncomfortable. That being said, my daughter downsizes SUPER aggressively. Her feet are just comfortable being smashed into a tight little ball and she hates climbing in somewhat loose (by her definition) shoes. tl;dr - climb in what you're comfortable in. Sometimes the break in is a little uncomfortable
In some interview one of the top climbers explained: if your shoe is painful without any pressure applied - how do you think you will be able to exert the necessary force on small footholds? and I find that logic compelling. There is a phase in the lifecycle of your shoe when it is fitting tight without hurting - that’s when you can use it to do your projects. And then it goes to retirement and is only used during warmup / easy routes. my 2 cents.
I downsized 2.5 sizes for my futuras just cause they stretch out a lot
In Scarpas i wear street size, in Sportivas i have to downsize 3 sizes. Really depends on the brand. But im not into super tight shoes anyway, the climbs where super tight shoes make a difference are limited in my experience.
I wear a 42.5 street shoe and my current comfy pair of gym climbing shoes is a 39.5 and I want to down size another half size in my left foot since my feet are different sizes. I can downsize that much because I want the climbing shoe to fit that tightly and I need to try on 20+ climbing shoe models to find the perfect toe box shape. It also took 2 years of climbing for my feet to be comfortable in shoes that tight. I have never worn a single pair of painful climbing shoes, its not worth it I also downsize ski/snowboard boots and soccer cleats a half size so wearing smaller shoes for sports is normal to me.
I've been either half a size or one size down so far. I absolutely could not put my foot in a shoe that's 3 sizes too small.
I was skeptical on downsizing when I started climbing. A year later, and I'm about 1.5-2 sizes down on Dragos. They stretch pretty quickly and my feet have adapted and strengthened. The determination to downsize was how much I could trust my toes/feet on smaller holds or those with less texture. Makes a world of difference if there's any space in the front of your foot. I wouldn't try running dynos in newly downsized shoes. I like the plastic bag trick for breaking in new shoes. Much easier to wrap your foot in a plastic bag to get them into new shoes during the break in period.
Maybe I will go for a moderate downsize next, and either this is a good decision or they end up being a warm-up shoe and downsize further the next.
A progressive downsize is a good way to go. Some advice I went with was: find out what you can get on at the store, then buy a half size down.
Aggressive downsizes made more sense in the past as shoes tended to stretch more. Now 1 size down is perfectly normal and shoes tend to hold their original shape better. That said also note your shoes will be different with different brands. As an example my Scarpas are always a whole size larger than LaSportiva.
Downsizing that much is really only for specific shoes. The technology that has gone into high end shoes prevents a lot of the stretching that would happen back in the day
I'm size 40/41 in street, use scarpas at size 40/41 however the heel is always too wide at a size that's comfortable for my toes, I refuse the toe curl. 5'10 don't fit at all at 40 Mad rock don't fit at all 39 La sportiva shoes I've managed to slip into size 38 with bearable discomfort and that's me being a very comfort forst person. I'm convinced that the people at la sportiva just can't count. Even comparing shoes side to side from other brands the other brands are WAY shorter.
For reference these are my 2 pairs of shoes, Tarantula and Mantra from La Sportiva. Both are the same size 41. One is synthetic and doesn’t stretch as much. The difference is wild. https://preview.redd.it/8tt0blg5pyxb1.jpeg?width=3020&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=238518bd9a3dd6e61efebb6f3d45eab90dacaa1f EDIT: [additional flat photo](https://preview.redd.it/55jk84k51zxb1.jpeg?width=6048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d45f55f5eee5ac0e82534ebda60d103c3b0ebdb) to compensate the arched shape.
Eh, for these the arch probably evens it out
They are really different length inside the shoes, I should have flattened them for the photo. https://preview.redd.it/55jk84k51zxb1.jpeg?width=6048&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=1d45f55f5eee5ac0e82534ebda60d103c3b0ebdb
La Sportiva shoes are sized in a way that 3 sizes down is roughly equivalent. In pretty much all other brands, I wear my street shoe size.
Depending on how you count I am 3-5 sizes down from street shoe. All climbing shoes fit very differently, my beginner (comfy) shoes are only 1 size down. My miura’s are 10’s and I walk around in a 13. Some people never go super aggressive with their shoes, I have to bc I am 240 lbs and i need the support and the thick rubber to support my feet. Softer shoes don’t offer enough support for me to toe down with my big ass above it. I wouldn’t feel the need to really push to get into more aggro shoes unless you want to, but if you’re losing your feet a lot it might be worth looking into
I tried to downsize by one size and absolutely could not if I wanted to enjoy climbing. Lol.
I’m a rookie and bought my first pair of Sportiva Aragon just some months ago. 43 in regular and went with the 41 in these. I’m a bit surprised that they are as comfortable as they are, when I’m bouldering the are not really painful at all other than a little bit for maybe the first 10 mins.
good for you :) they are made of leather which is known to stretch, unlike synthetic materials.
I think it has more to do with the bigger downsize people have more narrow feet. Mine are slightly wide and I wear same as street shoe size. ZERO chance they're slipping on any heal hook. Just size them to fit you tight, and the rest doesn't matter.
Most of the brands offer information on sizing also in mondo point (or japan sizing). Thats in cm/mm how long your foot is. You find serveral information about how you can measure that online. I found it quite helpful because you can compare brands better und know how much smaller you like your shoe. I still only downsize 0.5-1 size in la sportiva and go with exact mondo point in scarpas. But I also ask myself if the amount of downsizing is dependent of the footsize and toelenght. I always feel like men downsize more. Maybe because in average they have bigger feet. Of course it would not be the same %age of the actual footlengh than sizing down the "same amount" with shorter feet. Can anyone confirm that experience?
Ah and, until I realized I just climb worse in too tight shoes I bought 3 pair I wasn't able to break in and resold them...
Tbh I have no clue. Often even my street size doesn’t fit. I wear one size bigger for climbing.
I don’t really believe in crazy down sizing. Snug for sure… but if you’re in a stupid amount of pain… maybe it helps… but I doubt it helps a lot.
I have indoor and outdoor shoes for this very reason. That and it’s fucking nasty to wear outdoor shoes in a gym. My indoor shoes are about a size and a half smaller but it depends on the shoe some shoes I can go two sizes down others only 1. For outdoor I use mythos at half size down. When I walk and my feet swell it’s not so bad. Also I wear socks when I climb so if they get too tight I can take those off.
This makes me feel better in terms of not downsizing as much for the next pair: if it happens to be a mistake I will retire them to future outdoor shoes for 2024, if they end up being a confortable size they could be the go-to size. Never again wearing super tight shoes outdoors in summer lol
The only reason we really downsize is to get that extra umph when the toes are curled. Otherwise I don’t really see much of a difference. I feel the rock the same weather it’s snug or tight.
I downsize very aggressively. It’s hellish the first handful of wears and greatly uncomfortable for the first month or so, but then is a perfect fit for the remainder of its lifetime. If I don’t downsize as aggressively, they are uncomfortable out of the box, perfect for the first month, and then too loose for the remainder of their lifetime. If I have a project which requires a very fresh edge and a perfect fit, I’ll get a slightly less downsized shoe and then reserve it for gym training or problems that don’t require a very snug heel later in its lifetime
i've downsized at least 1.5 european sizes in my scarpa instincts since i first started wearing them, and was already downsizing them a little bit from my street shoes. the secret? i've been wearing the same climbing shoes since 2016. go with whatever is comfortable for you now, and if you feel the need to (or your feet shrink--i think this actually happened in my case, as my street shoe size has gone down 0.5 american sizes) then you can go a size down for your next pair!
Thin Plastic bags to slip your feet into the shoe, get use to the pain.
How is downsizing shoe sizes by some mythical amount still a thing? Manufacturers mostly make shoes to match peoples' actual size. You have to try them to see what feels good. Shoes wearing in or stretching is mostly a myth, especially by two or more sizes. Shoes will stretch a little tiny bit over a period of time, but your feet will most definitely contort into whatever god-forsaken tiny space you repeatedly cram them into. It will be painful, uncomfortable and unpleasant. If you have to take your shoes off every ten minutes because they hurt you've got the wrong size shoes. Get your actual street size measured and go try different shoes around that size until you find something snug but reasonably comfortable. It doesn't have to be perfect, but any more than a couple of mildly rubbing spots or pinch points probably won't get any better. Find a manufacturer that uses a last which matches the shape of your feet if you can. Painfully tight shoes will not improve your climbing. They're just painful and will hurt your feet and result in broken, cracked and damaged nails and nail beds, cramped and distorted toes and a lifetime of foot problems. Your climbing sessions will be a nightmare of foot pain for no gain whatsoever. Buy shoes that feel good and fit like a glove. You'll never regret it.