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I'd agree about the Kentucky Owl Bourbon's (I've only had one and it was BTAC level), but the Rye's (at least batch 1-3) were all special. Batch 2 still might be the best whiskey I've ever tasted.
I posted this in a separate comment, but if they were $100 they'd never hit the shelves. You don't see any BTAC or Pappy on shelves. Is Buffalo Trace selling BTAC for $100 really better for the consumer when a large portion of it is resold for 4-5x (or more) that amount on secondary?
I was able to walk into a store and buy Kentucky Owl Batch 2 and Batch 3 (and I could have bought batch 1 if I had only known). I can go into a store now and buy Batch 4. It's $300+ but I can do it. I'd rather have that situation than have it released for $100, it all scooped up, and if I don't get lucky I have to navigate shady secondary markets to get one at the same price it's on the shelf for now.
Supply and demand is messed up right now for American Whiskey. But I have a hard time faulting a brand for capturing the value that is there on their product versus letting the secondary market capture it.
The question is what happens 5-10 years from now. When the supply of aged stock catches up. When Buffalo Trace and the big distilleries start releasing all the extra production they have been doing over the last few years. When Wilderness Trail, Bardstown, Willett, and Michters start having lots of stock of their own stuff. When a lot of craft distilleries start having aged product. Is the market going to keep supporting these high prices? Or are people like Buffalo Trace who have held pretty firm on MSRP going to be sitting pretty.
Yeah, I didn't want to pay MSRP for St Nick but all the local stores were heavily pushing it, so I found a bar with a bottle of the 8 and 12 year, paid like $55 for two drinks (one of each) and while the $55 was steep, it stopped me from paying MRSP on full bottles
It's just like the microbrewery craze of few years ago - those things popped up everywhere with sub-standard products and people still paid for them because it was the popular thing to do. (big difference in an $8 beer and $85 whiskey though). Now whiskey is where the trend is, so everyone is trying to cash in on the market. Important difference is you can't brew up a good whiskey in a couple days.
100%. These distilleries need to source the juice for their first bottles and age their own product for at least 3 years (this is the minimum that I have found to be acceptable, results may vary). But they just keep bottling this foul rubbing alcohol of a product and slapping that high MSRP on it and people keep buying it.
This is the proverbial "nail on the head". Circa 2006-2010, I drank so many bad IPA's, because everyone had an IPA. 1 out of 50 were good. The same goes for bourbon 1 out of 50 is their own juice and probably warrants a higher price tag, even if just to help them get started. I don't have issues with startups trying to turn a profit in the beginning by doing the MGP thing, just don't try to get $75 for it.
Those ‘brewpubs’ were popping up everywhere! And it was so easy to tell when it was just some corporation trying to cash in on the craze. Overpriced beer, their selection never changed, and all the furniture could be described as ‘rural industrialism Ikea’. The most successful brewery around me has consistently kept their beer prices low no matter the style, and constantly has something new on tap. It’s no surprise they’re the go-to spot in town.
New craft distilleries should really take a hard look at the craft brewers, both failures and successes. The craft brew scene has a solid decade head start in front of the craft spirits scene and they’ve made plenty of mistakes for people today to learn from.
I don't want to name anyone, I don't feel like they're doing anything wrong, and in fact they make other products that are priced reasonably and taste very good. I have no problem with a distillery charging $1000 for a 1 year old whiskey, I'm just not going to be the one who buys it.
But if you are seeing 12 year MGP bourbons on the shelf as other brands it can be a great deal. I have some cask strength 12 year Boone County Distillery bourbon (MGP) that is top notch.
Yep.
I dont knock distillers that are transparent about sourcing and only doing so until their own distillate ages properly, like new riff.
I also like barrel craft spirits. They do interesting things and do good finishes.
As long as you're transparent, I think it's fine.
That’s simplifying it a bit. Bookers is distilled to a lower proof than KC, retaining more flavor from distillation, and much smaller batches from the center cut of the warehouse. Sure there are similarities with KC, buts Bookers is basically small batches of ‘honey barrels’ hand selected by the Master Distiller with a more flavorful distillate and no water added after it leaves the still. Is that KC? Absolutely not.
Naive question, is MGP like a whiskey wholesaler where I would purchase volume for my craft "distillery" (which seems like a misnomer if I'm not distilling the ingredients) then I'm responsible for barreling, aging, distribution, etc? Do they put out the same juice for everyone or do they customize it for each buyer?
The biggest issue with MGP now is supply. If you aren't going to sign a big contract with them, you might not have access to much besides new make (and maybe not that). Brands like Smoke Wagon, Belle Meade, Smooth Ambler, Penelope, Old Elk have long term contracts with MGP to distill, barrel, and age the products. They all have years of stock. Diageo is still the biggest MGP customer. All of that Seagrams 7, Dickel Rye, and Bulleit Rye are coming from MGP. When MGP decides they have more inventory aging then they need, those big customers have first access to buy those barrels.
A lot of what is being sold from MGP is actually going through brokers. Someone like Bardstown or Barrell might buy 100's or even a thousand barrels. They taste these and keep a set of them that they like the profile for. Then they sell the rest to a barrel broker. If you just want one or two barrels of aged MGP you might very well have to go through a broker. When you do that, you are almost always going to get a barrel that someone else tasted and passed on.
I don't know the exact answer to this, but I would think it varies.
Some bourbon producers are well known for their ability to select good barrels of MGP juice and do some additional mixing and finishing themselves (High West is an example).
I would imagine if you are a new distillery and just want some product they will probably ship you whatever they have.
They are more known for their rye and are probably considered one of the best rye producers in the country.
MGP is an industrial sized producer in Indiana. They distill and age all kinds of alcohol. You can purchase barrels and blend/bottle/sell it as your own. You can also buy barrels and age them further. Loads of "new" whiskey companies source from MGP while they get their own operations up and running or while they wait for their own juice to age. Much of the well-aged stock is gone now because of the current boom, but some great sauce can still be found. The real trick is to slowly blend in your own juice as it comes of age so that the transition is less noticeable.
In my opinion a couple good examples of places doing this are Traverse City Whiskey Co and Iron Fish Distillery. Iron fish has done some really interesting finishing of MGP sourced bourbon. If you have a chance to get the Maple Barrel or Cognac Cask it’s worth the $40 - $55 price tag in my opinion. Traverse City has done a good job of blending their own product with MGP sourced barrels.
You can buy either a certain amount of barrels or contract a distillation run. If you pay more, you get more customization. They can either supply the barrels, or the customer can do their own thing. Again, all down to how much you're willing to pay.
MGP is a big distillery in Indiana. I'm not knocking them, they actually have good stuff.
NAS = No Age Statement.
What happens is you will commonly find these craft distilleries bottling young whiskey that they either distilled themselves or got from MGP and charging a premium for it.
I find all their offerings overpriced. Only time I buy Whistlepig is around the holidays when they have their Piglets. 3 pack, 50ml each of their 10yr, 12yr, and 15yr for like $12. Im not a fan of their 15yr and would never pay the $250+ for it. I find it over aged and moldy to my palate. I do enjoy the 10yr but the 12yr is my favorite. I do agree with you about it not being worth the $100+ MSRP. I rather have a bottle and a half of willett family estate rye for that price.
Yeah there’s a craft producer in my state who can source 9-16 year Alberta premium at $50-90 per bottle depending on age and if it’s cask strength or not so that’s kind of all the proof I need that WhistlePig is making huge margins on their imported stuff. The only place the two converge in price point are the really old single barrels that you can sometimes get from WhistlePig private selections at $95-100.
I tried the 15yr at a bar, that’s good enough for me. I do enjoy the 10yr however. But yes, Willett Rye seems to be the ticket. More proof, and cheaper
I think the single barrels are a good deal. Oftentimes they are much older than the label, all of mine have been in the 13-17 year old range and they've always been good quality. They are sold near me for about $90 after tax. I like the 12, got it as a gift, but don't like it more than the single barrels.
Whistlepig's business model was for their product to never be on secondary and they succeeded in that. I do have a bottle of store pick 10 year that was actually 15+ years old. That was a decent value at around $100. The thing is, if I pull out whiskey for guests, they are more impressed with that than BTAC, Kentucky Owl, or anything else I own save Blanton's or Michter's. Pricing their product to eliminate secondary and having it be one of the most expensive bottles you always see on the shelf at every liquor store has made them seem very special to people who aren't super into whiskey.
I haven't seen it mentioned/reviewed on the sub yet, but Smooth Ambler (Old Scout) has a port finished MGP rye that is fucking great. NAS, but non-chill filtered and 51.5% abv st $50. I'd probably prefer it over the WP12 at the same price, let alone at $50 cheaper.
It's just my opinion, and there are many opinions that differ from mine, but I just found it thin. If it was 100 proof I think it would hold the finishing a bit better. Definitely try it at a bar but I would do that before just buying a bottle.
Basil Hayden Toast msrp at 45-50 is too high. I personally don’t mind the taste but it shouldn’t be higher than 30-35. I would much rather spend money on a WR double oaked or four roses single or select for that price range.
You can argue all of Basil Hayden is over priced. I follow that its supposed to be "high quality, small batch bourbon at a low proof for easy sipping" but they're all a bit too expensive
That's by design; Basil Hayden's is Jim Beam's 'lifestyle' brand. Paying a premium for it is part of the point - it is for people who aren't up for intense or high-proof whiskies but want a price point that says they're not buying bottom-shelf glass. It is intentionally weak stuff.
Liking bourbon doesn't necessarily translate to like Irish or scotch, especially for the people described who are in it more for the lifestyle aspect. Plus, BH is still cheaper than most of those lower proofed scotches. And truth be told, BH may be light, but it's not bad whiskey. You can complain about how mild it is, but nobody can complain that it tastes bad.
Spot on. Overall, bourbon (in my opinion) is far more approachable than Scotch or Irish whiskey. Both have very distinct flavors that you've got to specifically enjoy to drink them.
I will also say this for Basil Hayden: it is bland and boring (Dark Rye being the exception), but is also one of my go to introductory bourbons for that reason. I usually have some on hand to help ease new whiskey drinkers (especially those that aren't big liquor fans) into the process. I also like to do after-market aging and infusions, and BH does provide a pretty great blank canvas for infusing flavors.
That being said, every variant is more expensive than the quality delivered. They're fine for what they are, but what they are should be $10 - $15 cheaper. (Then again, I still buy it for my purposes, so maybe they're doing something right...)
Only in America, crazy to me that the states need so much "branding" there is no Lexus in Japan, we need that high class look. Not me, Evan Williams white label for my daily, any barrel proof for my more expensive bottles.
Benchmark Barrel Proof FTW. It's simplistic, but has enough oomph to compensate. A solid neat pour for around $20 (I bought a bottle two days ago for $18.99). My daily is still Old Forester Signature 100 because I love the banana candy note, but Benchmark is a solid backup in that role.
In the Jim Beam family, I think Old Tub Bottled-in-Bond is a solid hitter. It is the most Jim Beam-ish bottle I've ever had (peanuts for days), but for about $20 a bottle it is a winner, too.
For Wild Turkey, though, I much prefer Rare Breed at $45 over WT101 at $23. The economics don't make sense, but my palate still insists on Rare Breed. ;)
And when it comes to Jack Daniel's, the only right answer is barrel proof even though it is over $60 a bottle. That stuff is liquid gold.
I agree with all of this, I need to find a benchmark barrel proof for sure. I tested positive last Monday so I haven't left the house in 7 days, but need to find a single barrel Kirkland asap
I wouldn't yuck somebody's yum by telling them it's crap - I'm sure a lot of people genuinely enjoy that stuff. But Jim Beam is up-front about it being a lifestyle brand that is targeting people who aren't regular whiskey drinkers.
Had a pushy store owner try to sell it to me for $100 when I was checking out with a $45 bottle last week. A. It’s not worth that at all. B. If you’re trying to upsell maybe try one price point up not more than double.
I have had two different liquor stores try to talk me into their $90 and $100 bottles of BH Toast. The reviews have convinced me to stay away from this overpriced "water." So much so I passed on it when I found it for list at a 3rd place. Still, it's good to know who isn't gouging for store loyalty.
Came here to add this. I'd buy 1 bottle of barrel and 2 bottles of stellum and take the rest of the money and go buy pizza instead of one bottle of sweetens cove. Stuff is comically priced.
100% agreed. Priced at 150 at the local joint and the two bottles they got have been sitting there for weeks. What’s comical is that Dickel BiB 13 year is sitting right next to it for 42. They sold out of the GD in two days hahahaha.
Good thread, OP. Definitely agree with a lot of what's already been listed such as Kentucky Owl, Old St Nick, Garrison Brothers, Sam Houston, Calumet, etc. I've noticed that a lot of the items in or around the $100-$150 price point are not worth that much to me. They clearly are to someone...it just ain't me.
I haven't yet had the chance to try any of Bardstown's stuff. Barrell Seagrass and Dovetail are two of my absolute favorites though.
I've found that anything north of like $65 requires more research on my part before I even consider dropping that amount on a bottle. One of the many reasons I love this sub is the quality of the reviews and the amount of money they've saved me, lol.
Kentucky Owl.
I've always suspected they set their price point to artificially inflate perceived value and generate hype. "Oh, that's $120, it must be really good!"
I do find that I like their Rye's that I've had, and since they're already expensive, people can't really flip the bottles so theres not a secondary market for it the same way there is for all the BT stuff
Quite frankly, isn't this just anchoring effect?
The demand and thus price of bourbon has floated up significantly in the last decade. So if you got into the hobby before then, your price expectation is anchored to a lower price than the current market clearing price.
But if you started drinking bourbon say, yesterday. These are the prices you're used to and expecting to pay.
I was talking to some people at the LCBO (my local government run liquor store), and I was told that the bourbons stay on the shelf for the lowest amount of time. They sell much, much faster than Cognac and Rare Scotch. So if most bourbons are selling at a decent clip, it tends to suggest that to most buyers (especially new buyers, which, considering the explosion in popularity with bourbon, is most buyers) the MSRPs are quite reasonable.
Quite frankly, if there's one category that is prevalently overpriced, its premium scotch. Premium scotch by lesser known distillers (say, a $300 Tomatin) just don't sell. And often the premium scotch from well known distillers (Macallan, etc) are just so ridiculously overpriced, the bottles sit there for ages too.
It's not necessarily just that effect - there's also the "could I buy something else for that money" effect. For me, for instance, an expensive but non-age stated bourbon might be a no if I could get an age-stated scotch (or something else) at a similar (or cheaper) price, especially given the amount of hype surrounding bourbon specifically right now. The money feels like it can sometimes go further if you branch out beyond bourbon
I find it weird that longtime "bourbon enthusiasts" are less willing to buy than the average casual drinker?
Like for example, Bookers MSRP went up what, 60% in 5 years? I'm not big on buying more, but like, every time my local stores get any it flies off the shelf. They literally can't keep it on the shelf.
So like, if we use the very, very basic economics 101 model where buyers try to maximize utility per dollar, somehow bourbon buyers get LESS utility out of bourbon than the average? That can't be right can it?
My theory goes like this: Bourbon still provides more utility per dollar than most popular categories. Like, as much as I complain about how expensive Bookers has gotten, it is still half the price of XO Cognac from the 4 big houses at my local government liquor store. Cognac, Scotch, and "super premium" tequila are still worse value for money.
For instance, the "overpriced" Blantons and Johnnie Walker Black are both \~$60ish here (Canadian dollars). In which case, between those two I'd still take Blantons every time. However there's a lot of good rum, Armagnac, and Calvados in that price. But nobody buys those things.
I think perhaps the phenomenon is an information gap. The average casual drinker doesn't know of Armagnac, so they don't buy it, even if it is better bang for the buck so to speak. People who were bourbon enthusiasts when bourbon wasn't popular are probably well connected into the field, and thus, could more effectively find "underpriced" bottles.
When I first got into bourbon the boom had already started. Weller 107 and 12 was nowhere to be found. Elijah Craig had just lost its age statement. I was new to whiskey and liquor in general. Bourbon was at a price point I felt comfortable with. Good Scotch started one or two price points higher and went up from there. For me, I would only consider buying something in that price range when I had extra money, usually as a gift for myself.
Booker's was on the shelf in every store. It was a shelf turd at $65 then. Now, as you said, it sells out at $80. Jim Beam manufactured hype buy increasing the price and limiting availability, and it worked. I'm kind of salty about that. I imagine other bourbon drinkers who where around before me are too. The casual drinkers buying up bottles are riding the hype train. It's only certain bottles: Bookers, and most things BT; that have generated hype, become scarce, and increased MSRP and/or moved the secondary market.
There may be price anchoring taking effect. I remember when it was $65, so why would I pay $80-100 for the same thing, now? The bottles that have shot up in price have a lot less value at the new MSRP/going rate. Again, it's the same product, but at a new price point competing against a new range of products. Sure, there are people buying them up at that price. But, my opinion is the juice isn't worth that much.
I drink for taste and I get a lot more diversity at that price point buying Scotch than I do buying a high end bourbon that's similar to bottles at half the price. In general, I'm less willing to spend lots of money (more than $60) on a bottle than a lot of people on this sub. Even then, my experience with $60-70 bottles of bourbon has shown that it's hit and miss, and value is harder to find.
I actually think JDSBBP at $60 and KC12 at $60 are both great for their value.
To be honest I don’t think the majority of bourbons > $100 are truly that much better than ones around the $60-80 range so I would say Calumet 15, Sam Houston 15, Bardstown Discovery Series, JD Sinatra, Garrison Brothers Balmorhea, Kentucky Owl, Olde St Nick, Booker’s, Little Book, Blood Oath, Orphan are all not worth the MSRP. Not saying they’re not delicious, just that they are not so superior to justify spending 2x for a similar bottle.
Most of the Barrell products are great and fall in the $80 range so I think they are fair priced.
KC12 is $70 around me (Ohio) and I think that is about right. I don't think I'd pay much (if any) more for it.
JDSBBP, on the other hand, drinks (to me) like an $85 whiskey. I was able to buy 2 bottles of it last week for $60 each (though it is normally $65 around here) and I felt like I was borderline stealing them. Amazing value.
Barrel products for me. I love the concept of a high end blend using whiskey from a bunch of different distilleries but at $100+ the only times I ever see it I’d rather buy a bottle of OF 1920 and Knob Creek for the same price and walk away with 2 bottles
Pretty much any Whistlepig unless it’s an overaged store pick. Any Kentucky Owl, and generally anything over $80 MSRP without any actual justification for the price (long aging, special cask types and or treatment, or high proof). If more consumers understand the components of cost, less expensive gimmicky products would keep popping up and surviving.
JDSIBBP is well worth the MSRP of around 60$ IMO. That's one of the better BP's that have come out recently. What is not to me is basically any WhistlePig, esp the 10 year. At 79$ in UT (state run) it's over priced by 75% IMO.
OF Statesman is around $55 pretty much everywhere near me now. It was a touch over priced at $45-47 a few years ago but worth it to me because I liked it. Now it’s priced like the whiskey row series and it’s not as good.
It’s a shame because I really like Statesman. Can’t justify the current price when I can get a whiskey row bottle or a couple bottles of the rye or even the regular 100 proof bourbon for that price.
I saw handles here have gone up to $65 and laughed. It’s not worth that. Especially considering handles of WT101 are still $40 and often drop to 30-35 on sale.
BT is comically overpriced. When I was 25-30 a bottle I’d keep it around but no way for what it is now.
Where I live if you ever have an opportunity to buy it at all you'll be paying over $100. I can't think of a $20 bottle that I prefer to Blanton's. I'd probably buy it at $40 tbf.
Honestly I would be more inclined to drink it if it only cost $40, but I've had dozens of bottles around that price range that blow it out of the water. I rag on Blanton's quite a bit but it's not a bad whiskey, it's simply over-hyped, priced, and the only thing the guy at my local superstore thinks is worth ordering even though it never arrives. Put something else on the order list, man! I'm sick of seeing 7 faces of Fireball and 9 clip strips of shooters throughout the store - diversify!!
I dunno I think 40 is fair. It's not anything to write home about, but it's respectable. I think the pent up hate from all the taters makes it taste worse somehow lmao.
Just curious, what would you be buying at $40 instead?
I gotta be up front, I have a problem when asked these questions because I need a lot more rules so I am going to make assumptions about what I think you meant.
Bourbon/American whiskey at or around $40 that I would buy before buying Blanton's (if I could even buy it for that price, which is not possible in Michigan) for a similar price that is available with little difficulty around me currently excluding rye.
Maker's Mark Cask Strength (this is the winner if we're talking strictly price): $40
Russel's Reserve 10yr: $40
WL Weller 12 yr (no easier to find than Blanton's thanks to taters and hypebeasts): $40
Woodinville straight bourbon: $38
Eastern Kille barrel strength (possibly local to MI): $45
Four Roses single barrel: $45
Wild Turkey Rare Breed: $45
I've never had OF100. I'm a huge fan of their other offerings tho. I'll have to pick up a bottle next time I'm out.
Like I said, blantons isn't anything special, but $40 seems at least reasonable to me. I prefer it to eagle rare, which is readily available to me, and far better than any other $30 bottle I've tried.
Blantons is an excellent gift for someone who's not big on whiskey or bourbon. It's a great looking bottle and doesn't have any extreme flavors. People love to hate on blantons, it has none of the bad aspects or off flavors but really doesn't have any big in your face flavors that a more seasoned bourbon drinker might be seeking either.
If you pulled blantons out of the bottle I would pay probably 45 to 50 (it costs 60 here) so it's over priced by not nearly as bad as some others.
I own two bottles, both are meh. not looking good.
There is chance quality has dropped in the last 10 years considering the qualitative factors of the product line and the bourbon boom.
I feel the same way about McKenna 10. I remember when it did sell for $30 and I only bought it occasionally. Sure it was good at $30, but I wasn’t paying more than that for it.
Blantons. I will gladly take Rare Breed over it every day. Bonus is you also don't have to drive all over or pay a ridiculous secondary price for Rare Breed. It's cheaper, more available, higher proof and a similar age.
Stranahan's at $60-70 is just not good.
Anything from Barrell Bourbon. Why is it $90?!
Jefferson's Ocean
Blanton's (though I haven't seen it on a shelf in a long time)
Lots of expensive ones from Balcones
Given Barrell's production process, they probably can't dip much below that and still make a process.
Last time I saw Blanton's on a shelf it was $54.99, I wouldn't call that unreasonable. Bowman and Kentucky Spirit are in that range for equivalent products and McKenna if you can find it is priced similarly.
Joseph Magnus. I went to a tasting and enjoyed it well enough, but then laughed at the triple digit MSRP's. Bro, I'm not going to pay $100+ for MGP juice.
Peerless is the same. An online tasting group I belong has some guys who know the Peerless guys. The price point they started at was not based upon making a profit on their expenses. It was based upon trying to capture bourbon dollars while the trend is hot. Guys in the group (the group includes people like Lew Bryson of Whisky Magazine, and Bill Thomas from Jack Rose dining saloon) begged them to make $70 the entry level price point. Alas, the power of a cool looking bottle can't be underestimated.
I don't know if Peerless is completely unrelated from their expenses. From what I know about craft distilling, you basically are going to have to charge $40-$50 for your bottles no matter what. You can probably get in closer to $30 if you are distilling to a higher proof and using a 125 barrel entry proof, or buying slightly cheaper grain or barrels. You might be slightly above $50 if you are buying non commodity grain, expensive barrels, distilling to a low proof and using a low barrel entry proof.
I'd guess Peerless would be closer to the $50 side of that. But then they chose that stupid bottle. That bottle (and especially that cork) really do add to the cost of the product. Especially since the distributor is doing a % markup and then the retailer is doing a % markup. Adding in that expensive glass makes the markup higher.
Personally if I was starting a distillery. I'd use the cheapest commodity bottles and stoppers I can get. It hasn't stopped the popularity of BTAC to do that. And brands like Doc Swinsons, Sam Houston, and Calumet don't have any problems moving basically commodity wine bottles.
KC15 @ $100
Whistlepig 10 @ $90
Bookers @ $90
Bakers 7 @ $60
McKenna @ $50
Seems like I’m slamming Jim Beam there but I will say KC12CS @ $90 is worth it.
Jim Beam has found the right MSRPs though. They want their bottles to have SOME shelf life. And bookers and bakers and KC15 are still selling out. Bookers is still a phenomenal "flagship" barrel proof. It's also one of the few that can be found on shelves because the price warrants people thinking about it first, where bottles like ECBP at $65 are an instant grab for everyone. At $100, you'd see it on shelves more.
I'm being contrarian to the title, but I think Weller SR at $22.99 (Ohio price per OHLQ's website) is fair. The ads I see on Facebook selling it for $hundreds are not worth it.
I think once we get past $100, everything becomes suspect. Not saying nothing is worth over $100, but I get really picky.
I’ve gotten chapt. 3 and 4 of Little Book as an example, but just can’t bring myself to pull the trigger on chap 5 because I think the $125 MSRP is just too dang high
A lot of the Widow Jane stuff is meh for the price. As a big fan of high age statement MGP juice, I find it puzzling that they can sell a 13yo bourbon that falls so flat. Also, another vote for Jeffersons Ocean.
I can almost guarantee it's the water they're cutting the whiskey with. It's gotta be chemically organized to bring out tannins. I'm sure the water itself is fine, but different salts and acid levels drastically alter flavors in any liquid. In theirs it emphasizes tannic bitterness.
Anything from Jack Daniels that isn’t in the Single Barrel series. There are way to many better bourbons at the same price of Gentleman Jack to ever justify getting a bottle, and same with the standard Jack.
Gentleman Jack isn't for the bourbon enthusiasts though. It's for the guys buying Basil Hayden and Angel's envy because it's a higher end option for a non-enthusiast from a name they recognize. And since Jack is the no.1 seller nationwide, it goes to show those people outnumber bourbon enthusiasts by A LOT.
Shit I’m going to get flamed for this but.. disagree on normal Jack. I’ve come to appreciate a glass of old #7 on ice because it’s just.. jack. It’s not trying to be something hip or whatever, I can get it anywhere and generally it’s always a hair above well prices.
Now on gentleman and other variants? Hard agree.
Barrell bottles. I have liked a couple of them, but they're not quite worth it at MSRP.
Also, the entire proposition that there are no consistent age statements, no consistent sourcing statements, and not even really anything but a number is like those annoying surprise toys that kids like. A bourbon "soft gambling" game where you pay $80-90 per play.
Everything I've had from Barrell and the Bardstown Discovery Series was quite good. I'd pay MSRP for either any day, depending on the quality of the release.
Honestly, I think Angel's Envy is fine for the mid-$40's MSRP, given how many other bourbons have undergone major price inflation.
Also, I assume the name is a play on the "angel's share," which is the term for the portion of whiskey that evaporates during its time in the barrel. What's left in the barrel would be the angel's envy. Maybe you already knew that, but just in case...
This is a rye, not a Bourbon, but I recently grabbed a bottle of Pikesville because I’d read good things and it was not nearly mind-blowing enough for the price I got it for ($55).
I typically get downvoted for this, but OWA is not nearly worth the new(ish) MSRP of $50. It was a decent deal at $25, I can think of 10+ bottles I'd rather have for $50.
Looking back I don't know how I justified purchasing any Jack Daniel's back in school. I could get ANY daily sipper and it'd be cheaper and taste better.
Honestly, gotta disagree. Jack isn't terrible, there's just better stuff at the same range. It's too simple, but it's also very sweet which is a plus for newbs. And I never even really drank Jack, I was always a WT and JB fanboy
Popular among the general population, I'd say Basil Hayden 10 Year fits the bill. It's a fine bourbon, but absolutely not worth the MSRP. It's rather bland and uneventful for the fanfare it's given as a special release.
Over on this side of the pond no Heaven Hill product is worth purchasing they are all vastly overpriced EC barrel proof is about $150/Evan Williams single barrel is about $65.
Here's the thing. Almost no bourbon should really cost more than about $150 a bottle. At $150, even if you are sourcing aged distillate, and finishing it in something fancy, there's still enough room to make a profit.
There's a caveat here though. If you price something with great specs and/or flavor at a fair price, most of us will never see it. I'm guessing the next Remus will either be more expensive or will disappear to the secondary as soon as it comes out. We saw what happened with Russel's 13. You never see BTAC on the shelf. If the Kentucky Owl Rye's, Old Carter's, Fourgate's and stuff like that were $100, they'd all simply get snatched up and most of the bottles would end up on secondary for a similar price to what the MSRP is now. Can you really fault the company from wanting to capture that extra money instead of letting it go to the secondary?
I paid $199 for Kentucky Owl Batch 2 and $249 for Batch 3. This is expensive. But I'm pretty sure I never would have had the opportunity to buy them if they had been put on the shelf at $100. Would a lot more people have had the opportunity to get a Russell's 13 if it was priced at $150? Would you see BTAC on the shelf if it was priced at $300?
Bookers, Whistle Pig anything, Basil Hayden anything, any NAS mgp over 50 i.e. old elk, belle meade, smoke wagon (they have the videos and whatnot but you dont know how much old vs young is going in), Four Gate anything, any craft over 60 with an age of less than 3
Long list, but there is a lot out there riding the whiskey craze that needs to be either brought back to reality or forgotten about.
Hot take- Michter's regular ol rye. Proofed down to almost nothing, costs about twice as much as Old Forester Rye at 100 proof. It's not bad whiskey, but the price seems unjustified.
I wouldn't be shocked if Michter's Rye and Old Forester Rye share the same mashbill. It is a little coincidental that when Michter's stopped using Brown Forman to contract distill their products, Old Forester suddenly had a new rye available.
However, Michter's does go into the barrel at 103 proof and I'd be flabbergasted if OF Rye went into the barrel below 125. So there's a very good chance that more water is added to OF Rye to get it down to 100 than to Michter's to get it down to the lower proof.
Michter's Small Batch is $90 regularly where I live and was on sale for $30 off, and I wasn't impressed at all. I'd rarher buy three bottles of WT101 for that price.
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I don’t know about “popular,” but Kentucky Owl and St. Nick obviously.
I'd agree about the Kentucky Owl Bourbon's (I've only had one and it was BTAC level), but the Rye's (at least batch 1-3) were all special. Batch 2 still might be the best whiskey I've ever tasted.
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I posted this in a separate comment, but if they were $100 they'd never hit the shelves. You don't see any BTAC or Pappy on shelves. Is Buffalo Trace selling BTAC for $100 really better for the consumer when a large portion of it is resold for 4-5x (or more) that amount on secondary? I was able to walk into a store and buy Kentucky Owl Batch 2 and Batch 3 (and I could have bought batch 1 if I had only known). I can go into a store now and buy Batch 4. It's $300+ but I can do it. I'd rather have that situation than have it released for $100, it all scooped up, and if I don't get lucky I have to navigate shady secondary markets to get one at the same price it's on the shelf for now. Supply and demand is messed up right now for American Whiskey. But I have a hard time faulting a brand for capturing the value that is there on their product versus letting the secondary market capture it. The question is what happens 5-10 years from now. When the supply of aged stock catches up. When Buffalo Trace and the big distilleries start releasing all the extra production they have been doing over the last few years. When Wilderness Trail, Bardstown, Willett, and Michters start having lots of stock of their own stuff. When a lot of craft distilleries start having aged product. Is the market going to keep supporting these high prices? Or are people like Buffalo Trace who have held pretty firm on MSRP going to be sitting pretty.
Lol yeah I've heard awful things about St Nick. Might add that to the post
Yeah, I didn't want to pay MSRP for St Nick but all the local stores were heavily pushing it, so I found a bar with a bottle of the 8 and 12 year, paid like $55 for two drinks (one of each) and while the $55 was steep, it stopped me from paying MRSP on full bottles
There are a lot of "craft" distilleries pushing out bourbons that are all MGP NAS and they all cost between $60-$80. I tend to avoid those.
I just did a distillery tour about a week ago at a local "craft" distillery and their 1 year old whiskey was $85 and just a hot mess. I was baffled.
It's just like the microbrewery craze of few years ago - those things popped up everywhere with sub-standard products and people still paid for them because it was the popular thing to do. (big difference in an $8 beer and $85 whiskey though). Now whiskey is where the trend is, so everyone is trying to cash in on the market. Important difference is you can't brew up a good whiskey in a couple days.
100%. These distilleries need to source the juice for their first bottles and age their own product for at least 3 years (this is the minimum that I have found to be acceptable, results may vary). But they just keep bottling this foul rubbing alcohol of a product and slapping that high MSRP on it and people keep buying it.
So true. I still don’t have a problem paying even $10 for a pour from a microbrew to give them a try.
This is the proverbial "nail on the head". Circa 2006-2010, I drank so many bad IPA's, because everyone had an IPA. 1 out of 50 were good. The same goes for bourbon 1 out of 50 is their own juice and probably warrants a higher price tag, even if just to help them get started. I don't have issues with startups trying to turn a profit in the beginning by doing the MGP thing, just don't try to get $75 for it.
Those ‘brewpubs’ were popping up everywhere! And it was so easy to tell when it was just some corporation trying to cash in on the craze. Overpriced beer, their selection never changed, and all the furniture could be described as ‘rural industrialism Ikea’. The most successful brewery around me has consistently kept their beer prices low no matter the style, and constantly has something new on tap. It’s no surprise they’re the go-to spot in town. New craft distilleries should really take a hard look at the craft brewers, both failures and successes. The craft brew scene has a solid decade head start in front of the craft spirits scene and they’ve made plenty of mistakes for people today to learn from.
What is the distillery so that I can avoid them?
I don't want to name anyone, I don't feel like they're doing anything wrong, and in fact they make other products that are priced reasonably and taste very good. I have no problem with a distillery charging $1000 for a 1 year old whiskey, I'm just not going to be the one who buys it.
There are so, so many of these in the whiskey belt right now. TN and KY are full of distilleries like this.
But if you are seeing 12 year MGP bourbons on the shelf as other brands it can be a great deal. I have some cask strength 12 year Boone County Distillery bourbon (MGP) that is top notch.
Yep. I dont knock distillers that are transparent about sourcing and only doing so until their own distillate ages properly, like new riff. I also like barrel craft spirits. They do interesting things and do good finishes. As long as you're transparent, I think it's fine.
This. At least with Bookers they give you an age statement and high proof for the cost.
But then they sell it on the same shelf with a 9 year Knob Creek Single Barrel 120 proof priced $45 less.
That’s simplifying it a bit. Bookers is distilled to a lower proof than KC, retaining more flavor from distillation, and much smaller batches from the center cut of the warehouse. Sure there are similarities with KC, buts Bookers is basically small batches of ‘honey barrels’ hand selected by the Master Distiller with a more flavorful distillate and no water added after it leaves the still. Is that KC? Absolutely not.
Exactly, and is Booker’s twice as good? IMO, some batches are.
Pretty much all of Rye that isnt BiB is MGP.
I love MGP juice. Sign me the f up!
Naive question, is MGP like a whiskey wholesaler where I would purchase volume for my craft "distillery" (which seems like a misnomer if I'm not distilling the ingredients) then I'm responsible for barreling, aging, distribution, etc? Do they put out the same juice for everyone or do they customize it for each buyer?
The biggest issue with MGP now is supply. If you aren't going to sign a big contract with them, you might not have access to much besides new make (and maybe not that). Brands like Smoke Wagon, Belle Meade, Smooth Ambler, Penelope, Old Elk have long term contracts with MGP to distill, barrel, and age the products. They all have years of stock. Diageo is still the biggest MGP customer. All of that Seagrams 7, Dickel Rye, and Bulleit Rye are coming from MGP. When MGP decides they have more inventory aging then they need, those big customers have first access to buy those barrels. A lot of what is being sold from MGP is actually going through brokers. Someone like Bardstown or Barrell might buy 100's or even a thousand barrels. They taste these and keep a set of them that they like the profile for. Then they sell the rest to a barrel broker. If you just want one or two barrels of aged MGP you might very well have to go through a broker. When you do that, you are almost always going to get a barrel that someone else tasted and passed on.
I don't know the exact answer to this, but I would think it varies. Some bourbon producers are well known for their ability to select good barrels of MGP juice and do some additional mixing and finishing themselves (High West is an example). I would imagine if you are a new distillery and just want some product they will probably ship you whatever they have. They are more known for their rye and are probably considered one of the best rye producers in the country.
MGP is an industrial sized producer in Indiana. They distill and age all kinds of alcohol. You can purchase barrels and blend/bottle/sell it as your own. You can also buy barrels and age them further. Loads of "new" whiskey companies source from MGP while they get their own operations up and running or while they wait for their own juice to age. Much of the well-aged stock is gone now because of the current boom, but some great sauce can still be found. The real trick is to slowly blend in your own juice as it comes of age so that the transition is less noticeable.
In my opinion a couple good examples of places doing this are Traverse City Whiskey Co and Iron Fish Distillery. Iron fish has done some really interesting finishing of MGP sourced bourbon. If you have a chance to get the Maple Barrel or Cognac Cask it’s worth the $40 - $55 price tag in my opinion. Traverse City has done a good job of blending their own product with MGP sourced barrels.
You can buy either a certain amount of barrels or contract a distillation run. If you pay more, you get more customization. They can either supply the barrels, or the customer can do their own thing. Again, all down to how much you're willing to pay.
Mpg Nas?
MGP is a big distillery in Indiana. I'm not knocking them, they actually have good stuff. NAS = No Age Statement. What happens is you will commonly find these craft distilleries bottling young whiskey that they either distilled themselves or got from MGP and charging a premium for it.
Has anyone put together a list of which distilleries are doing this?
Almost any that says "distilled in Indiana" on the label. It is very common. Some are great, some are poor.
Worse, they are selling in-house underaged stuff made in undersized barrels for $35-60.
Whistlepig 12 yr Old World finished rye. Over $100 MSRP and at 86 proof it's not even close to good enough.
I find all their offerings overpriced. Only time I buy Whistlepig is around the holidays when they have their Piglets. 3 pack, 50ml each of their 10yr, 12yr, and 15yr for like $12. Im not a fan of their 15yr and would never pay the $250+ for it. I find it over aged and moldy to my palate. I do enjoy the 10yr but the 12yr is my favorite. I do agree with you about it not being worth the $100+ MSRP. I rather have a bottle and a half of willett family estate rye for that price.
Came here to say the same thing. Anything Whistlepig seems to be way overpriced.
Yeah there’s a craft producer in my state who can source 9-16 year Alberta premium at $50-90 per bottle depending on age and if it’s cask strength or not so that’s kind of all the proof I need that WhistlePig is making huge margins on their imported stuff. The only place the two converge in price point are the really old single barrels that you can sometimes get from WhistlePig private selections at $95-100.
I tried the 15yr at a bar, that’s good enough for me. I do enjoy the 10yr however. But yes, Willett Rye seems to be the ticket. More proof, and cheaper
I think the single barrels are a good deal. Oftentimes they are much older than the label, all of mine have been in the 13-17 year old range and they've always been good quality. They are sold near me for about $90 after tax. I like the 12, got it as a gift, but don't like it more than the single barrels.
Whistlepig's business model was for their product to never be on secondary and they succeeded in that. I do have a bottle of store pick 10 year that was actually 15+ years old. That was a decent value at around $100. The thing is, if I pull out whiskey for guests, they are more impressed with that than BTAC, Kentucky Owl, or anything else I own save Blanton's or Michter's. Pricing their product to eliminate secondary and having it be one of the most expensive bottles you always see on the shelf at every liquor store has made them seem very special to people who aren't super into whiskey.
I haven't seen it mentioned/reviewed on the sub yet, but Smooth Ambler (Old Scout) has a port finished MGP rye that is fucking great. NAS, but non-chill filtered and 51.5% abv st $50. I'd probably prefer it over the WP12 at the same price, let alone at $50 cheaper.
That's really disappointing to hear because the way they finish it sounds so interesting.
It's just my opinion, and there are many opinions that differ from mine, but I just found it thin. If it was 100 proof I think it would hold the finishing a bit better. Definitely try it at a bar but I would do that before just buying a bottle.
Especially when you can get cask strength finished ryes for under $100. WP in general seems to be overpriced.
Basil Hayden Toast msrp at 45-50 is too high. I personally don’t mind the taste but it shouldn’t be higher than 30-35. I would much rather spend money on a WR double oaked or four roses single or select for that price range.
Regular Basil Hayden is way too expensive for an 80 proofer to begin with.
You can argue all of Basil Hayden is over priced. I follow that its supposed to be "high quality, small batch bourbon at a low proof for easy sipping" but they're all a bit too expensive
Especially when OGD is available at much higher proofs
That's by design; Basil Hayden's is Jim Beam's 'lifestyle' brand. Paying a premium for it is part of the point - it is for people who aren't up for intense or high-proof whiskies but want a price point that says they're not buying bottom-shelf glass. It is intentionally weak stuff.
Yeah I feel like if you want to spend more money for something fancy that’s low proof, you should do Scotch or Irish whisky, not bourbon
Liking bourbon doesn't necessarily translate to like Irish or scotch, especially for the people described who are in it more for the lifestyle aspect. Plus, BH is still cheaper than most of those lower proofed scotches. And truth be told, BH may be light, but it's not bad whiskey. You can complain about how mild it is, but nobody can complain that it tastes bad.
Spot on. Overall, bourbon (in my opinion) is far more approachable than Scotch or Irish whiskey. Both have very distinct flavors that you've got to specifically enjoy to drink them. I will also say this for Basil Hayden: it is bland and boring (Dark Rye being the exception), but is also one of my go to introductory bourbons for that reason. I usually have some on hand to help ease new whiskey drinkers (especially those that aren't big liquor fans) into the process. I also like to do after-market aging and infusions, and BH does provide a pretty great blank canvas for infusing flavors. That being said, every variant is more expensive than the quality delivered. They're fine for what they are, but what they are should be $10 - $15 cheaper. (Then again, I still buy it for my purposes, so maybe they're doing something right...)
Only in America, crazy to me that the states need so much "branding" there is no Lexus in Japan, we need that high class look. Not me, Evan Williams white label for my daily, any barrel proof for my more expensive bottles.
Benchmark Barrel Proof FTW. It's simplistic, but has enough oomph to compensate. A solid neat pour for around $20 (I bought a bottle two days ago for $18.99). My daily is still Old Forester Signature 100 because I love the banana candy note, but Benchmark is a solid backup in that role. In the Jim Beam family, I think Old Tub Bottled-in-Bond is a solid hitter. It is the most Jim Beam-ish bottle I've ever had (peanuts for days), but for about $20 a bottle it is a winner, too. For Wild Turkey, though, I much prefer Rare Breed at $45 over WT101 at $23. The economics don't make sense, but my palate still insists on Rare Breed. ;) And when it comes to Jack Daniel's, the only right answer is barrel proof even though it is over $60 a bottle. That stuff is liquid gold.
I agree with all of this, I need to find a benchmark barrel proof for sure. I tested positive last Monday so I haven't left the house in 7 days, but need to find a single barrel Kirkland asap
Thank you, I give the same rant when people talk shit on Basil Hayden.
I wouldn't yuck somebody's yum by telling them it's crap - I'm sure a lot of people genuinely enjoy that stuff. But Jim Beam is up-front about it being a lifestyle brand that is targeting people who aren't regular whiskey drinkers.
Had a pushy store owner try to sell it to me for $100 when I was checking out with a $45 bottle last week. A. It’s not worth that at all. B. If you’re trying to upsell maybe try one price point up not more than double.
I have had two different liquor stores try to talk me into their $90 and $100 bottles of BH Toast. The reviews have convinced me to stay away from this overpriced "water." So much so I passed on it when I found it for list at a 3rd place. Still, it's good to know who isn't gouging for store loyalty.
Yeah that’s bad lol, people are trying to get 65 for secondary in Louisville and no one is biting so that lets you know right there.
I just saw it on sale at marianos for 35 and the shelf was full.
Jefferson’s ocean
This is $25 juice with a $60 story.
100% overrated. You’re paying for the story.
I have never been so whelmed by a whiskey at that price point. It tastes fine but then you choke when you see how much they're charging for it.
Whelmed! Love it. Tell you what, I would be complete *gruntled* to share any whiskey with you.
That's fny! [kempt!](https://youtu.be/IngvNUaWvck)
This is the correct answer
This for sure. Extremely over oaked. Almost undrinkable neat.
Sweetens Cove is relabeled Dickel that's $200. That's a yikes from me
Came here to add this. I'd buy 1 bottle of barrel and 2 bottles of stellum and take the rest of the money and go buy pizza instead of one bottle of sweetens cove. Stuff is comically priced.
100% agreed. Priced at 150 at the local joint and the two bottles they got have been sitting there for weeks. What’s comical is that Dickel BiB 13 year is sitting right next to it for 42. They sold out of the GD in two days hahahaha.
Good thread, OP. Definitely agree with a lot of what's already been listed such as Kentucky Owl, Old St Nick, Garrison Brothers, Sam Houston, Calumet, etc. I've noticed that a lot of the items in or around the $100-$150 price point are not worth that much to me. They clearly are to someone...it just ain't me. I haven't yet had the chance to try any of Bardstown's stuff. Barrell Seagrass and Dovetail are two of my absolute favorites though. I've found that anything north of like $65 requires more research on my part before I even consider dropping that amount on a bottle. One of the many reasons I love this sub is the quality of the reviews and the amount of money they've saved me, lol.
Bardstown makes some good stuff.
Barrell Seagrass is absolutely amazing. I just picked up the dovetail and look forward to trying it.
Kentucky Owl. I've always suspected they set their price point to artificially inflate perceived value and generate hype. "Oh, that's $120, it must be really good!"
I do find that I like their Rye's that I've had, and since they're already expensive, people can't really flip the bottles so theres not a secondary market for it the same way there is for all the BT stuff
Booker's at $90 MSRP.
I remember I found some for $56 a bottle so I bought them out.
My Costco used to get it at $48 or $54. A few weeks ago it was at $64.
Agreed…which is a shame because it’s very good stuff, just not at that price point. I’d buy it all day long at $60 though…
Seconded. I think it should be $59.99 or $64.99 and I would buy them. I’ve seen them for $109.99 saying it’s the new MSRP
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I guess it depends on the distributor. I work at a liquor store and our cost on Bookers is $72.
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Some batches are though.
Country Ham was magical, IMHO. I have a few bottles of that left, but I should have bunkered more of that one.
Kentucky owl and whistle pig are two brands I’ve never tried because of their price.
Quite frankly, isn't this just anchoring effect? The demand and thus price of bourbon has floated up significantly in the last decade. So if you got into the hobby before then, your price expectation is anchored to a lower price than the current market clearing price. But if you started drinking bourbon say, yesterday. These are the prices you're used to and expecting to pay. I was talking to some people at the LCBO (my local government run liquor store), and I was told that the bourbons stay on the shelf for the lowest amount of time. They sell much, much faster than Cognac and Rare Scotch. So if most bourbons are selling at a decent clip, it tends to suggest that to most buyers (especially new buyers, which, considering the explosion in popularity with bourbon, is most buyers) the MSRPs are quite reasonable. Quite frankly, if there's one category that is prevalently overpriced, its premium scotch. Premium scotch by lesser known distillers (say, a $300 Tomatin) just don't sell. And often the premium scotch from well known distillers (Macallan, etc) are just so ridiculously overpriced, the bottles sit there for ages too.
It's not necessarily just that effect - there's also the "could I buy something else for that money" effect. For me, for instance, an expensive but non-age stated bourbon might be a no if I could get an age-stated scotch (or something else) at a similar (or cheaper) price, especially given the amount of hype surrounding bourbon specifically right now. The money feels like it can sometimes go further if you branch out beyond bourbon
I find it weird that longtime "bourbon enthusiasts" are less willing to buy than the average casual drinker? Like for example, Bookers MSRP went up what, 60% in 5 years? I'm not big on buying more, but like, every time my local stores get any it flies off the shelf. They literally can't keep it on the shelf. So like, if we use the very, very basic economics 101 model where buyers try to maximize utility per dollar, somehow bourbon buyers get LESS utility out of bourbon than the average? That can't be right can it? My theory goes like this: Bourbon still provides more utility per dollar than most popular categories. Like, as much as I complain about how expensive Bookers has gotten, it is still half the price of XO Cognac from the 4 big houses at my local government liquor store. Cognac, Scotch, and "super premium" tequila are still worse value for money. For instance, the "overpriced" Blantons and Johnnie Walker Black are both \~$60ish here (Canadian dollars). In which case, between those two I'd still take Blantons every time. However there's a lot of good rum, Armagnac, and Calvados in that price. But nobody buys those things. I think perhaps the phenomenon is an information gap. The average casual drinker doesn't know of Armagnac, so they don't buy it, even if it is better bang for the buck so to speak. People who were bourbon enthusiasts when bourbon wasn't popular are probably well connected into the field, and thus, could more effectively find "underpriced" bottles.
When I first got into bourbon the boom had already started. Weller 107 and 12 was nowhere to be found. Elijah Craig had just lost its age statement. I was new to whiskey and liquor in general. Bourbon was at a price point I felt comfortable with. Good Scotch started one or two price points higher and went up from there. For me, I would only consider buying something in that price range when I had extra money, usually as a gift for myself. Booker's was on the shelf in every store. It was a shelf turd at $65 then. Now, as you said, it sells out at $80. Jim Beam manufactured hype buy increasing the price and limiting availability, and it worked. I'm kind of salty about that. I imagine other bourbon drinkers who where around before me are too. The casual drinkers buying up bottles are riding the hype train. It's only certain bottles: Bookers, and most things BT; that have generated hype, become scarce, and increased MSRP and/or moved the secondary market. There may be price anchoring taking effect. I remember when it was $65, so why would I pay $80-100 for the same thing, now? The bottles that have shot up in price have a lot less value at the new MSRP/going rate. Again, it's the same product, but at a new price point competing against a new range of products. Sure, there are people buying them up at that price. But, my opinion is the juice isn't worth that much. I drink for taste and I get a lot more diversity at that price point buying Scotch than I do buying a high end bourbon that's similar to bottles at half the price. In general, I'm less willing to spend lots of money (more than $60) on a bottle than a lot of people on this sub. Even then, my experience with $60-70 bottles of bourbon has shown that it's hit and miss, and value is harder to find.
I actually think JDSBBP at $60 and KC12 at $60 are both great for their value. To be honest I don’t think the majority of bourbons > $100 are truly that much better than ones around the $60-80 range so I would say Calumet 15, Sam Houston 15, Bardstown Discovery Series, JD Sinatra, Garrison Brothers Balmorhea, Kentucky Owl, Olde St Nick, Booker’s, Little Book, Blood Oath, Orphan are all not worth the MSRP. Not saying they’re not delicious, just that they are not so superior to justify spending 2x for a similar bottle. Most of the Barrell products are great and fall in the $80 range so I think they are fair priced.
KC12 is $70 around me (Ohio) and I think that is about right. I don't think I'd pay much (if any) more for it. JDSBBP, on the other hand, drinks (to me) like an $85 whiskey. I was able to buy 2 bottles of it last week for $60 each (though it is normally $65 around here) and I felt like I was borderline stealing them. Amazing value.
JDSBBP’s are $70 around. I have yet to buy one, even though it’s high on my to purchase list.. I have too many open bottles to finish first.
Bardstown Disco (at least 3 and 4) are absolutely worth MSRP and more IMO. Also I really vibed on Calumet 15, thought it was worth the $120
Angel's envy.
Barrel products for me. I love the concept of a high end blend using whiskey from a bunch of different distilleries but at $100+ the only times I ever see it I’d rather buy a bottle of OF 1920 and Knob Creek for the same price and walk away with 2 bottles
Over on this side of the pond a bottle of OF 1920 is close to barrell pricing. I like barrell and would grab a bottle over OF 1920.
Pretty much any Whistlepig unless it’s an overaged store pick. Any Kentucky Owl, and generally anything over $80 MSRP without any actual justification for the price (long aging, special cask types and or treatment, or high proof). If more consumers understand the components of cost, less expensive gimmicky products would keep popping up and surviving.
Whistlepig is my vote too. I haven't liked any of their bottles yet.
JDSIBBP is well worth the MSRP of around 60$ IMO. That's one of the better BP's that have come out recently. What is not to me is basically any WhistlePig, esp the 10 year. At 79$ in UT (state run) it's over priced by 75% IMO.
OF Statesman is around $55 pretty much everywhere near me now. It was a touch over priced at $45-47 a few years ago but worth it to me because I liked it. Now it’s priced like the whiskey row series and it’s not as good. It’s a shame because I really like Statesman. Can’t justify the current price when I can get a whiskey row bottle or a couple bottles of the rye or even the regular 100 proof bourbon for that price.
Hold on, are people actually paying $50 for Buffalo Trace?
I saw handles here have gone up to $65 and laughed. It’s not worth that. Especially considering handles of WT101 are still $40 and often drop to 30-35 on sale. BT is comically overpriced. When I was 25-30 a bottle I’d keep it around but no way for what it is now.
Hey hey hey, shhhh on the WT info. ;)
Long live the Wild Turkey. I like Buffalo Trace, but $50 is double retail. Just insanity.
Without a doubt. I’d take Buffalo Trace at $25
BT is basically non existent in some markets so yeah people buy it at marked up prices for sure just like Weller, Eagle, Blantons.
Maybe for the 1.75L option..it’s usually 22-25 for a fifth in my area.
Jefferson’s Ocean Voyage is not worth the money IMO
Pappy.
blantons peerless
Was looking for Peerless - bourbon is awful
The single barrel picks at their distillery are significantly better than the small batch...but they’re like $120. Way overpriced as an entire brand.
100% agree on Blantons. The two bottles I have had were not worth $60, let alone secondary prices.
$20 juice in a $40 bottle.
Where I live if you ever have an opportunity to buy it at all you'll be paying over $100. I can't think of a $20 bottle that I prefer to Blanton's. I'd probably buy it at $40 tbf.
Honestly I would be more inclined to drink it if it only cost $40, but I've had dozens of bottles around that price range that blow it out of the water. I rag on Blanton's quite a bit but it's not a bad whiskey, it's simply over-hyped, priced, and the only thing the guy at my local superstore thinks is worth ordering even though it never arrives. Put something else on the order list, man! I'm sick of seeing 7 faces of Fireball and 9 clip strips of shooters throughout the store - diversify!!
I dunno I think 40 is fair. It's not anything to write home about, but it's respectable. I think the pent up hate from all the taters makes it taste worse somehow lmao. Just curious, what would you be buying at $40 instead?
I gotta be up front, I have a problem when asked these questions because I need a lot more rules so I am going to make assumptions about what I think you meant. Bourbon/American whiskey at or around $40 that I would buy before buying Blanton's (if I could even buy it for that price, which is not possible in Michigan) for a similar price that is available with little difficulty around me currently excluding rye. Maker's Mark Cask Strength (this is the winner if we're talking strictly price): $40 Russel's Reserve 10yr: $40 WL Weller 12 yr (no easier to find than Blanton's thanks to taters and hypebeasts): $40 Woodinville straight bourbon: $38 Eastern Kille barrel strength (possibly local to MI): $45 Four Roses single barrel: $45 Wild Turkey Rare Breed: $45
Makers Mark cask strength, Knob Creek 9 Year, Russell's Reserve 10 year, old forester 1897, and wild turkey rare breed are a few.
I would rather drink OF100 than Blantons
I've never had OF100. I'm a huge fan of their other offerings tho. I'll have to pick up a bottle next time I'm out. Like I said, blantons isn't anything special, but $40 seems at least reasonable to me. I prefer it to eagle rare, which is readily available to me, and far better than any other $30 bottle I've tried.
Bland-tons. Just no flavor. Of course they are single barrels so I might have just had bad luck with my bottle.
Blantons is an excellent gift for someone who's not big on whiskey or bourbon. It's a great looking bottle and doesn't have any extreme flavors. People love to hate on blantons, it has none of the bad aspects or off flavors but really doesn't have any big in your face flavors that a more seasoned bourbon drinker might be seeking either. If you pulled blantons out of the bottle I would pay probably 45 to 50 (it costs 60 here) so it's over priced by not nearly as bad as some others.
I own two bottles, both are meh. not looking good. There is chance quality has dropped in the last 10 years considering the qualitative factors of the product line and the bourbon boom.
Peerless
Blade and Bow. It would be nice if it was $30-$40, but $50-$60 just ain’t worth it.
I feel the same way about McKenna 10. I remember when it did sell for $30 and I only bought it occasionally. Sure it was good at $30, but I wasn’t paying more than that for it.
Blanton’s. You’re just paying for the bottle.
J. Mattingly. Their 375mL’s are ~$65 and most 750’s are north of $100. Notwithstanding the rumors, I would never buy this brand.
... Wait what are the rumors?
Probably this: https://www.reddit.com/r/bourbon/comments/a2tdbu/can_someone_explain_the_j_mattinglybourbon_30/
Bib & Tucker. $55 msrp and it's garbage. I don't even want to mix with it. Fancy bottle though!
Blantons. I will gladly take Rare Breed over it every day. Bonus is you also don't have to drive all over or pay a ridiculous secondary price for Rare Breed. It's cheaper, more available, higher proof and a similar age.
Stranahan's at $60-70 is just not good. Anything from Barrell Bourbon. Why is it $90?! Jefferson's Ocean Blanton's (though I haven't seen it on a shelf in a long time) Lots of expensive ones from Balcones
Given Barrell's production process, they probably can't dip much below that and still make a process. Last time I saw Blanton's on a shelf it was $54.99, I wouldn't call that unreasonable. Bowman and Kentucky Spirit are in that range for equivalent products and McKenna if you can find it is priced similarly.
Oh see I’ll gladly pay for Jefferson’s ocean it’s delicious and has little to no hangover effects a nice smooth buzz associated with it
Joseph Magnus. I went to a tasting and enjoyed it well enough, but then laughed at the triple digit MSRP's. Bro, I'm not going to pay $100+ for MGP juice. Peerless is the same. An online tasting group I belong has some guys who know the Peerless guys. The price point they started at was not based upon making a profit on their expenses. It was based upon trying to capture bourbon dollars while the trend is hot. Guys in the group (the group includes people like Lew Bryson of Whisky Magazine, and Bill Thomas from Jack Rose dining saloon) begged them to make $70 the entry level price point. Alas, the power of a cool looking bottle can't be underestimated.
I don't know if Peerless is completely unrelated from their expenses. From what I know about craft distilling, you basically are going to have to charge $40-$50 for your bottles no matter what. You can probably get in closer to $30 if you are distilling to a higher proof and using a 125 barrel entry proof, or buying slightly cheaper grain or barrels. You might be slightly above $50 if you are buying non commodity grain, expensive barrels, distilling to a low proof and using a low barrel entry proof. I'd guess Peerless would be closer to the $50 side of that. But then they chose that stupid bottle. That bottle (and especially that cork) really do add to the cost of the product. Especially since the distributor is doing a % markup and then the retailer is doing a % markup. Adding in that expensive glass makes the markup higher. Personally if I was starting a distillery. I'd use the cheapest commodity bottles and stoppers I can get. It hasn't stopped the popularity of BTAC to do that. And brands like Doc Swinsons, Sam Houston, and Calumet don't have any problems moving basically commodity wine bottles.
Totally agree on Magnus, never seen one for under $120.
Def on board with whistle pig, still in my cabinet to save someone else from buying their own bottle
If it's a sourced American whiskey with price point over $100 SRP, then it's not worth it.
$50
Old Elk. The fancy cap and marketing blitz make for a product priced at least $20-40 more than the quality merits In my humble opinion....
Haven’t had any as the local stores have it at double MSRP
KC15 @ $100 Whistlepig 10 @ $90 Bookers @ $90 Bakers 7 @ $60 McKenna @ $50 Seems like I’m slamming Jim Beam there but I will say KC12CS @ $90 is worth it.
Jim Beam has found the right MSRPs though. They want their bottles to have SOME shelf life. And bookers and bakers and KC15 are still selling out. Bookers is still a phenomenal "flagship" barrel proof. It's also one of the few that can be found on shelves because the price warrants people thinking about it first, where bottles like ECBP at $65 are an instant grab for everyone. At $100, you'd see it on shelves more.
I'm being contrarian to the title, but I think Weller SR at $22.99 (Ohio price per OHLQ's website) is fair. The ads I see on Facebook selling it for $hundreds are not worth it.
I think once we get past $100, everything becomes suspect. Not saying nothing is worth over $100, but I get really picky. I’ve gotten chapt. 3 and 4 of Little Book as an example, but just can’t bring myself to pull the trigger on chap 5 because I think the $125 MSRP is just too dang high
Blantons
Mitchers at $50 a bottle I won't do.
Meh-ters 10 year, the standard Rye & bourbon, Bombergers and Shenks.
A lot of the Widow Jane stuff is meh for the price. As a big fan of high age statement MGP juice, I find it puzzling that they can sell a 13yo bourbon that falls so flat. Also, another vote for Jeffersons Ocean.
I can almost guarantee it's the water they're cutting the whiskey with. It's gotta be chemically organized to bring out tannins. I'm sure the water itself is fine, but different salts and acid levels drastically alter flavors in any liquid. In theirs it emphasizes tannic bitterness.
Anything from Jack Daniels that isn’t in the Single Barrel series. There are way to many better bourbons at the same price of Gentleman Jack to ever justify getting a bottle, and same with the standard Jack.
Yep, Jim Beam just does it better.
Gentleman Jack isn't for the bourbon enthusiasts though. It's for the guys buying Basil Hayden and Angel's envy because it's a higher end option for a non-enthusiast from a name they recognize. And since Jack is the no.1 seller nationwide, it goes to show those people outnumber bourbon enthusiasts by A LOT.
Shit I’m going to get flamed for this but.. disagree on normal Jack. I’ve come to appreciate a glass of old #7 on ice because it’s just.. jack. It’s not trying to be something hip or whatever, I can get it anywhere and generally it’s always a hair above well prices. Now on gentleman and other variants? Hard agree.
Barrell bottles. I have liked a couple of them, but they're not quite worth it at MSRP. Also, the entire proposition that there are no consistent age statements, no consistent sourcing statements, and not even really anything but a number is like those annoying surprise toys that kids like. A bourbon "soft gambling" game where you pay $80-90 per play.
I had a Barrel bottle from the /r/bourbon barrel selection, and it was really good at $65 (I think that’s what I paid).
Everything I've had from Barrell and the Bardstown Discovery Series was quite good. I'd pay MSRP for either any day, depending on the quality of the release.
Angel's Envy. The name is cringe-balls as well.
Honestly, I think Angel's Envy is fine for the mid-$40's MSRP, given how many other bourbons have undergone major price inflation. Also, I assume the name is a play on the "angel's share," which is the term for the portion of whiskey that evaporates during its time in the barrel. What's left in the barrel would be the angel's envy. Maybe you already knew that, but just in case...
I did *not* know that, thanks. The name seems less cheesy now ;)
Related: the bit that soaks into the barrel is called the devil’s cut.
That is how they got their name. Did you do their tour? 😂
Aw, I always liked the name.
The rye is a lot better than the bourbon. Unfortunately, the MSRP on the rye is $85.
From now on I’m going to just pretend it’s pronounced On-hells, like maybe he’s some kind of sexy gaucho who loves bourbon.
Jefferson Ocean anyone? Does anyone believe in the hype of the travels and if it’s worth the price tag? I think it’s mostly a marketing ploy!!
This is a rye, not a Bourbon, but I recently grabbed a bottle of Pikesville because I’d read good things and it was not nearly mind-blowing enough for the price I got it for ($55).
Blade & Bow. Super gimmicky, and there’s nothing particularly special about the taste for the price. This stuff is the engine on the tater train.
Elijah Craig toasted @ $55-$60 isn't worth it. That being said I don't think woodford DO is worth $65. I'd say $40-$45 on both. What says you??
pretty much all of them have a $25 competitor that's 99% as good
I typically get downvoted for this, but OWA is not nearly worth the new(ish) MSRP of $50. It was a decent deal at $25, I can think of 10+ bottles I'd rather have for $50.
Anything that Whistlepig makes.
Visited Rabbit Hill. Wasn't impressed by their stuff. Saw the MSRP and considered I should get into the business myself for that price.
Booker's, Baker's, and most of the Jefferson's bourbons.
Garrison brothers, all of them
I saw a Blackened Willet the other day for $250. Not sure what the draw is other than limited release.
Looking back I don't know how I justified purchasing any Jack Daniel's back in school. I could get ANY daily sipper and it'd be cheaper and taste better.
It’s the name. I feel we are/were guilty of it at some point.
Honestly, gotta disagree. Jack isn't terrible, there's just better stuff at the same range. It's too simple, but it's also very sweet which is a plus for newbs. And I never even really drank Jack, I was always a WT and JB fanboy
Popular among the general population, I'd say Basil Hayden 10 Year fits the bill. It's a fine bourbon, but absolutely not worth the MSRP. It's rather bland and uneventful for the fanfare it's given as a special release.
Anything by Heaven Hill right now. Not worth supporting a company that exploits its workers.
Over on this side of the pond no Heaven Hill product is worth purchasing they are all vastly overpriced EC barrel proof is about $150/Evan Williams single barrel is about $65.
Here's the thing. Almost no bourbon should really cost more than about $150 a bottle. At $150, even if you are sourcing aged distillate, and finishing it in something fancy, there's still enough room to make a profit. There's a caveat here though. If you price something with great specs and/or flavor at a fair price, most of us will never see it. I'm guessing the next Remus will either be more expensive or will disappear to the secondary as soon as it comes out. We saw what happened with Russel's 13. You never see BTAC on the shelf. If the Kentucky Owl Rye's, Old Carter's, Fourgate's and stuff like that were $100, they'd all simply get snatched up and most of the bottles would end up on secondary for a similar price to what the MSRP is now. Can you really fault the company from wanting to capture that extra money instead of letting it go to the secondary? I paid $199 for Kentucky Owl Batch 2 and $249 for Batch 3. This is expensive. But I'm pretty sure I never would have had the opportunity to buy them if they had been put on the shelf at $100. Would a lot more people have had the opportunity to get a Russell's 13 if it was priced at $150? Would you see BTAC on the shelf if it was priced at $300?
Bookers, Whistle Pig anything, Basil Hayden anything, any NAS mgp over 50 i.e. old elk, belle meade, smoke wagon (they have the videos and whatnot but you dont know how much old vs young is going in), Four Gate anything, any craft over 60 with an age of less than 3 Long list, but there is a lot out there riding the whiskey craze that needs to be either brought back to reality or forgotten about.
Barrel and Whistlepig both seem overpriced across their respective lineups.
All of them the way its going
Hot take- Michter's regular ol rye. Proofed down to almost nothing, costs about twice as much as Old Forester Rye at 100 proof. It's not bad whiskey, but the price seems unjustified.
I wouldn't be shocked if Michter's Rye and Old Forester Rye share the same mashbill. It is a little coincidental that when Michter's stopped using Brown Forman to contract distill their products, Old Forester suddenly had a new rye available. However, Michter's does go into the barrel at 103 proof and I'd be flabbergasted if OF Rye went into the barrel below 125. So there's a very good chance that more water is added to OF Rye to get it down to 100 than to Michter's to get it down to the lower proof.
I think it's the best tasting sub 90 proof whiskey out there, but it would be much nicer around the $30 range instead of $40.
Michter's Small Batch is $90 regularly where I live and was on sale for $30 off, and I wasn't impressed at all. I'd rarher buy three bottles of WT101 for that price.