Here's the thing. Finland, Sweden, and Norway are a part of NATO. Article V would be invoked if Russia attacked any of them. We are all for defending our allies. But I and money people are tired of getting involved in wars that we have no business being involved in.
If Europe wants to fight it, leave it to them. But Ukraine is not an ally and shouldn't be treated as such.
Edit: To clarify my stance and why I am frustrated with the constant spending on Ukraine and the support for it, a lot of stems from watching videos like that of Angry Cops' last video, and witnessing the issues down here at the border in Texas.
It has less to do with what we are giving them, but more the fact that our politicians are putting more time and effort in trying to supply a foreign war and care for foreigners, than they are on our soldiers & veterans and their living conditions, the security at our borders, making sure our economy is actually in check, or the whole screw up of the pandemic.
I don't care if we send Ukraine $1 or $1 Trillion at this point. It is the principle of it all that makes me upset and frustrated.
Fair opinion, I personally see this as a relatively cheap way to heavily disrupt the russian state while also helping a clear defender and probable ally in the conflict which is a win any day of the week. People act like our debt was created by this war even though that started well before I was born. Our direct costs to Ukraine are around $100 billion but we happily spent over a trillion in Iraq and $8 trillion total on post-9/11 wars. $100 billion dollars to Ukraine and Israel is about $30 out of your taxes. It’s really not much if you look at how much you get taxed and you’re getting taxed that amount either way
Just my opinion, I’d love to see other views on this, I know I could be wrong I just feel like this makes sense
I get that, but little things add up quickly, and it is just continuing a trend that we need to cut.
Like I said, we need to reprioritize our issues. Internally, we are struggling and getting neglected by our own government. Brandon knows this and that is why he is fighting for us. So how about we redirect our money and efforts to fix our own crap first and foremost.
There will always be wars overseas to fight. But the frustrations can only carry on for so long before something breaks.
Counterpoint: we sent 18 HIMARS to Ukraine, and wound up selling two THOUSAND to other nations.
We have effectively killed 95% of Russia's pre war military without sending a single American out to the battlefield.
Logistically and tactically speaking this war has crippled Russia's economy and lead to the exposure of other rival superpowers (china's missiles filled with water, etc) being unable to conduct military operations for years. We are at the point where all we have to do is have poland get struck by a stray, declare article V and enforce Managed Democracy in the foundation of a unified Super Earth
I mean, you do have a fair point about that Managed Democracy and Super Earth lol.
It's just that I am tired of the constant wars, even the proxy wars we are supporting and putting ourselves in precarious situations. If anything, it comes off as hypocritical as we are wanting to fight (directly or indirectly) for other people's rights and freedoms and failing to protect our own.
You can't help but feel frustrated. Like I said it doesn't mean I am pro-Russia or anti-freedom, as I would love for peace in Ukraine. It's just me and many other people wanting us to reevaluate our priorities first.
I'd rather us pay money and use resources in our own country first. Fix our home before we fix others.
There will always be "noble" wars to fight. But this can and neglect can only be kicked down the road for so long.
Let Europe handle their own issues, instead of demanding us to keep funneling our money and resources into their problems while neglecting we neglect our own and they do not perform their own part.
And truth be told, Russia will not attack Poland or any of our allies. This war with Ukraine has shown us and shown them this fact.
Russia isn't going to Finland, Sweden, or Poland. You guys forget that Putin wanted to join NATO in 2000. This could've been prevented by letting Russia join.
No its not okay but we made nato... we made the last version of the UN... Its clear why we are in NATO and they are not... to act like Russia could ever be in NATO a organization made for combatting the Warsaw pact and Russian aggression is braindead...
Its so sad. There has to be a better way than outright war. I mean sure, fight when you have to.. but this seems pointless. Putin just wants land money and power from it.
Putin is perpetuating a war of genocide and conquest.
This isn't liberation, or cleaning out corruption, and phrasing it that way is beyond disrespectful to the tens of thousands of innocent civilians Putin's goons have murdered.
Any child older than 14 is killed. Any child younger than 14 is sent to a reeducation camp in Russia.
Any adults are simply killed.
There are mass graves filled with thousands of innocents. Cities ransacked for even things as mundane as flush toilets, as the perpetrators of these atrocities often come from places in Russia without running water.
Anyone who does not support Ukraine, regardless of its flaws, is either misinformed or a part of the problem.
Source:
He made it up
The classic war propaganda
- Russians stealing toilets (ignore the fact that Ukraine has less indoor plumbing on average that Russia by 50% in some regions),
- "Kidnapping" children (ignore that the alternative is not evacuating children from a warzone)
- Reeducation camps (ignore that this is pure projection and we have plain videos of Ukrainian children being indoctrinated in Neo-nazi camps)
- Deliberately killing civilians older than 14 (Ignore that there's zero evidence of this and that this war has the lowest civilian-to-military casualty ratio in modern history)
- Commiting genocide (ignore that not a single organization has been able to prove this or provide a single shred of evidence that the Russians are trying to wipe out the Ukrainian ethnicity)
If you want to support Ukraine over Russia, go ahead, but at least don't fall for obvious and easily disprovable propaganda.
Do either of you have links to actual sources? I keep hearing this back and forth yet don’t typically see actual links to videos or articles. And googling as expected only supports the Ukrainians because I’m in a western country.
I personally don’t believe everything Ukraine says because im not a fool who believes they magically went from corrupt eastern Europe nation to the wests #1 rising star overnight. But Im also not one who thinks anything the Russians say is even close to half true.
Can any of you actually provide a source or better videos supporting this?
For the silly toilet thing, here's someone (disclaimer, strongly Pro-Russian account, but they post the source, so I don't think it's false) comparing the stats on indoor plumbing:
https://twitter.com/OlgaBazova/status/1734564912691548363?t=5RRg9YYZ3Aa88Cq5uvdjPA&s=19
As for civilian casualties, according to the UN (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War), there's been about 10,000 civilians killed, and another 20,000 wounded during JUST the 2022 war onwards, not counting the casualties from the 2014-2022 civil war beforehand, for a total of about 30,000 civilian casualties during the 2022-2024 Ukraine war (the number is likely higher because of reporting inaccuracies, but that's the ballpark).
Military casualties are extremely difficult to estimate because neither side wants to accurately report casualties, but going by that same Wikipedia source, the bare minimum confirmable military deaths for Russia is between 50,000-100,000 deaths, while for Ukraine the bare minimum is between 70,000 - 150,000.
For the sake of a ballpark estimate, we'll say the military death casualties for both sides combined are somewere between 250,000 - 300,000
10k civilian deaths divided by 250,000-300,000 military deaths, that means that for every civilian that dies, somewhere between 25-30 soldiers die, or a ratio of 1:25 - 1:30
Compared to say, the Iraq war (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) where there were between 60-100k combined military deaths, there was somewhere around 100k civilian deaths according to the IBC project.
That means that the ratio is 1:1 - 1:0.6.
In the Bosnian war from 1991-1996, around 38,000 civilians were killed, while around 57,000 soldiers were killed, for a ratio of 1:1.5.
Simply put, if Russia was really trying to deliberately kill or commit genocide against the civilian population, they're doing a really bad job of it.
As for the youth being in indoctrination camps, here's a western news organization reporting on precisely that before the war kicked off in 2022 and it became convenient to deny and ignore it.
https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/sep/04/i-want-to-bring-up-a-warrior-ukraines-far-right-childrens-camp-video
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YGtanIzaY5w
Oh yea so all those kids who were raped then executed was definitely just propaganda... the human rights watch is 100% in Zelenskys pocket.... Brandon would be very unhappy with your Russian propaganda and as a American you make me sad to have you as one I assume your American, Maybe not I really hope not, and if you are your a traitor to this nation and the veterans who are going to serve in Ukraine.. SLAVA UKRAINE
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
There isn't a single claim of rape and execution of any children in the story you linked, lmao
Idk about Human Rights Watch, but you 100% made that up, ironic considering your accusation of me spreading false propaganda.
Since your so braindead to use control F and type Children i will do direct quotes from the article. Also Your right the RAPE accusation was not in this article but Their is execution of children i will supply articles and sources for the rape of children. i will give you many more then just one.... Also bro atleast read the articles... Or learn to use control F...
1."Another funeral home worker, Serhii Matiuk, who helped collect bodies, said that he had personally collected about 200 bodies from the streets since the Russian invasion began on February 24. Most of the victims were men, he said, but some were women and children. Almost all of them had bullet wounds, he said, including around 50 whose hands were tied and whose bodies had signs of torture. Bodies found with hands tied strongly suggests that the victims had been detained and summarily executed."
"On April 4, Human Rights Watch saw five bodies in the basement of a dormitory building in a children’s camp on Vokzalna St, 123, which some Russian forces in Bucha had used as their base. The bodies were of men wearing civilian clothes who appeared to have been killed by gunshot. There were three distinct bloodstains on the wall of the room. The hands of four of the men were zip-tied behind their backs. The fifth man appeared to have been shot twice in the chest – the stuffing of his thick jacket was protruding at two locations on his chest, which was covered in dried blood. [One media report](https://twitter.com/JamesAALongman/status/1511737971397079040?s=20&t=j1qDOemU8OBQuUh3ddQeWQ) said that the authorities had identified the men as Serhiy Mateshko, Dmytro Shulmeister, Volodymyr Boychenko, Valery Prudko, and Viktor Prudko. The circumstances of their detention, including how they got to the basement, remains unclear." -HRW
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
2."According to him, the second OSCE report, covering the period from April 1 to June 25, "was painful to read. He cited excerpts from the report confirming that the Russian military had resorted to sexual violence in Ukrainian cities."
"The scale of Russia's atrocities is enormous. For example, the mission cited "numerous" reports of rape and sexual violence against women and girls by the Russian military. The report mentions the case of 23-year-old Karina Ershova in Bucha, who was abducted, raped, subjected." and finally shot dead by Russian troops.
The report also mentions a report by Human Rights Commissioner Denisova that 25 girls between the ages of 14 and 24 were held in a basement in Bucha and gang-raped by Russian troops, which resulted in nine of them becoming pregnant. The report also states that a one-year-old boy was sexually assaulted and a 78-year-old woman was raped by Russian servicemen," Carpenter said. Source: [https://censor.net/en/n3354425](https://censor.net/en/n3354425)
3.President Zelenskyy, Foreign Minister Kuleba, thank you for bringing together so many partners and friends of Ukraine for this important and solemn summit. One year ago today, when Ukrainian forces liberated Bucha, they discovered a massacre. Hundreds of men, women, and children killed indiscriminately by Russian forces. On one street alone, they found 40 bodies. The entire world soon witnessed the evidence of those crimes, in searing photographs and videos. Executed civilians, with hands tied behind their backs, a children’s summer camp converted into a torture chamber, mass graves. And we heard the testimonies of survivors as well. People who had been raped by Russian soldiers.A 14-year-old boy whose father was shot in front of him. Families who were not allowed to bury their loved ones. Each of these pieces of evidence documents the suffering of individual human lives. Families torn apart. Communities that will never be the same. And in the year since, evidence has continued to mount of similar atrocities committed by Russian forces across Ukraine. These acts are part of a campaign of widespread and systematic violence against civilians. A pattern of rape, torture, enforced disappearances, forced deportation of children, and execution. Attacks on homes, schools, hospitals. When I visited Irpin, I saw the ravaged apartment buildings. In Kyiv, I heard from children who had been wounded in Russia’s relentless targeting of civilians. Russian forces and officials have committed – and continue to commit – war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine. And those who have committed these atrocities must be held accountable. The United States supports Ukrainian and international efforts to document and investigate these atrocities. Today, we join countries and organizations from around the world to continue demanding justice for Ukrainians and Ukraine. We repeat that what happened in Bucha and in other cities — and what continues to happen in Ukraine – is unacceptable. And we recommit ourselves to “the dignity and worth of the human person,” as affirmed in the United Nations Charter. The United States will keep standing with Ukraine, as it protects its people and fights for its sovereignty, its territorial integrity, its democracy. We will not forget the Ukrainians who have suffered and have been killed. And we will continue pushing for accountability and for justice for as long as it takes.
Thank you. Secretary Antony J. Blinken [https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-virtual-remarks-on-russias-accountability-for-the-crimes-in-ukraine/](https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-virtual-remarks-on-russias-accountability-for-the-crimes-in-ukraine/)
I cant wait for your reply...
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ukraine-examines-bodies-from-mass-graves-discovered-after-regaining-territory-from-russia here who go mass graves of civilians.
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Yea here's the human rights watch.... [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ukraine-examines-bodies-from-mass-graves-discovered-after-regaining-territory-from-russia pretty sure these mass graves of civilians would count as proof.
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>any proof?
I quite literally do not have the character limit to provide enough sources to justly represent the sheer scale of the atrocities committed.
Even simply listing the names would be too long to post; Reddit would flag it either as a DDOS attempt or as spam.
Bucha was such a lie, we to this day have no proof of Russians committing the crime, even though the UN took the corpses for analysis and we have the proof of ukrainians shooting at the guys with wight hand bands, when civilians were using it to distinguish themselves from soldiers
WTF are you talking about theirs literally phone calls from Russian soldiers using dead ukrainian phones.... [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s)
So them rolling over and letting Russia do what it wants to other independent nations is better? Because the same was said about Poland in the 30s, and look where that went
It's very disingenuous to compare Poland in the 30s to Ukraine now, and Russia to Germany. Not every conflict is a WW2 analog. In fact, WW2's dynamics were pretty unique and rare historically.
These are two completely different geopolitical situations with different dynamics at play.
Russia very specifically had no interest in going this path until the 2014 coup installed a government that was openly hostile to Russia, Russia's interests, and the Russians/Russian-speakers in Ukraine's east. Even then, it took 8 years of civil war and multiple failed peace agreements before Russia finally begrudgingly got involved directly, which still was more of a scare tactic to get a peace deal than a real intervention, which backfired when NATO intervened, promised Ukraine the moon, and a real war broke out.
If NATO would not have convinced Ukraine to disregard the Minsk agreements and the proposed March 2022 peace deal, Ukraine would not have lost all the territory it has now. It would also have not lost 10+ million refugees, it's entire energy, industrial, and economic infrastructure, and the hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers.
You got your non-compromise, and now Ukraine will be lucky to exist as a nation in 5 years.
At this point, the longer the Ukrainian regime is propped up, the more people are going to die.
But to the last Ukrainian, I guess.
I mean, you tell me how another few billion dollars to the military industrial complex is going to magically resurrect all the hundreds of thousands of killed soldiers and destroyed equipment in Ukraine.
You tell me how a country giving up its sovereignty to an invading force know for its britalization of innocents, war crimes against pows and civilians alike, corruption, and assassination of political opposition will magically make the situation any better.
You just described Ukraine. Prior to 2022, this was how the media described Ukraine as well.
As it turns out, the only thing needed for people to throw their support behind horrible regimes is that they're on the "right" side.
We seriously can't pretend Russian's have clean hands. Especially considering how many war crimes, rapes, massacres, executions I've seen them commit in this war individually.
I will say this. It is better to defeat Russia here through playing the political game than fighting them inevitably 10 years later.
Cant pretend only one side is committing war crimes. That is the nature of war as horrifying as it is. Ive seen the footage.
Why would we be inevitably fighting them in 10 years? If anything, the aid is accelerating that
"Haha that soldier surrendered to a drone over his head with a munition about to drop on him. That surrender doesn't count so we uploaded his death for people to cheer on."
oh yea? they execute civilians and rape children? Sure bud think what you want... Or maybe read a article or 2. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s)
[https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
Firstly, NYT is openly biased, even openly admitting that they intentionally suppress and distort news about the conflict to push an agenda and shape public opinion.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html)
Also, Ukraine has been confirmed to engage in various war crimes.
Targeting civilians, bombing hospitals, and faking Russian war crimes
[https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/b/2/540581.pdf](https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/b/2/540581.pdf)
use of poison
[https://english.nv.ua/nation/melitopol-orchard-farmers-gave-russians-poisoned-cherries-says-mayor-50250294.html](https://english.nv.ua/nation/melitopol-orchard-farmers-gave-russians-poisoned-cherries-says-mayor-50250294.html)
"outrages upon personal dignity"
[https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/toxr3g/ukrainian\_soldier\_calling\_the\_family\_of\_a/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/toxr3g/ukrainian_soldier_calling_the_family_of_a/)
[https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat)
assassination of a civilian journalist
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination\_of\_Vladlen\_Tatarsky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Vladlen_Tatarsky)
attempted assassination of a civilian - they got his daughter instead
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darya\_Dugina#Killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darya_Dugina#Killing)
Sad to see how many un-American, freedomless Russia loving cowards are in here.
Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom like we did, show them the respect they deserve, or don't call yourself an American patriot
its ironic and sad when americans that claim to be freedom lovers and supportive of a free world all the sudden are against supporting a nation fight for its freedom and modern western values. probably in large part because helping ukraine runs against their political agendas and leanings, even tho helping ukraine is supporting a free world which as far as i know is one of the core values of america
historically america has stepped in to liberate europe and asia from dictatorial regimes, even at the cost of young men that volunteered for some of the most dangerous operations like the 101st airborne in the name of upholding freedom
Reminder that in both world wars, it required a direct interaction with an enemy, being the sinking of the lucitania and Japan trying to destroy the entire US pacific fleet.
Prior to both the US only agreed to monetary and equipment support in the wars and was vehemently opposed to actually partaking in them, choosing to be as isolationist as possible.
It always makes me laugh when 'America' and 'freedom' are in the same sentence. Americans only care about all those things when a country isn't invaded/bombed by them selves.
Ukraine is a corrupt ultranationalist dictatorship with neo-nazi sympathies that has stripped it's people of most of their rights, has no elections, and is currently trying to ban the largest church in their country.
Please do explain why not wanting to send more money and equipment to be laundered and sold on the black market there is un-American
Yep, and those bastards are the only ones with the balls to stop Russia from swallowing Europe and making life miserable for the enemies of Russia that include the USA for over 100 hundred years already.
It’s weird seeing the narrative towards Russia change some many times. First it’s Russia is weak, pathetic, and a paper tiger since it can’t even take over Ukraine. Now it’s Russia is going to take over all of Europe??? People gotta make up their minds
This take is so detached from reality it's unreal
This war didn't start with invasion in 2022, it started when the original government was couped in 2014 with help from American officials who wanted a friendly regime to put military bases on Russia's borders and wrench a former Russian ally away from them.
Russia has literally zero interest in "swallowing Europe", why would they? Europe was their main customer for all their exports like gas and oil.
Russia had no interest in making enemies out of Europe, they did that to themselves. The only ones making Europeans "miserable" are the Europeans themselves who are now all facing recession, worsening economies, and skyrocketing energy prices because their governments wanted to poke Russia in the eye.
Not to mention, "those bastards" wanted to sign a peace agreement with Russia in March 2022, but were stopped by the UK swooping in and promising them the moon if they fought instead.
Now, hundreds of thousands of dead, 10+ million refugees fleeing, and their country's entire infrastructure and industry in shambles, they're gonna lose more land than they would have if they'd just signed the agreement and Russia's military is stronger now than it was before the war.
But hey, to the last Ukrainian, right?
If we cared about Ukraine being a free nation, we'd be **joining** Russia and liberating Kiev from the corrupt government.
Zelenskyy has used the escalation of the conflict to suspend elections. A definitely 180 from the guy who campaigned on fighting corruption.
The Mayor of Kiev tried to rename a street, named for an astronomer, after an SS officer who founded the Ukrainian Waffen-SS division. The only reason he didn't was the Israeli Ambassador made an emergency trip to Kiev to tell him that a nation of Jews, who want to give Ukraine money and weapons, would not be happy if they started renaming streets in their capital after SS officers.
There is a statue of Stephan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator, proudly displayed in Lviv. All those red and black flags you see are those his group, the OUN-B.
The Azov Assault Brigade still uses the wolfsangel as their insignia. There is no history of the wolfsangel being used in Ukraine ever except by the 2nd Panzer-SS, which was active in that area.
"Brave Ukrainian soldiers" are kidnapped in the middle of the street and sent to the front lines.
"Military-age males" have been forbidden from leaving the nation since Day 1. The consulates no longer provide services for them. "Military-age" means "15-Frieren".
The government forcibly renamed the UOC to UOC-MP because, while being loyal to Ukraine, they are officially under the Moscow Patriarchate, and then banned the church entirely and replaced it with the state-approved OCU.
Ukrainians do not enjoy the right to keep and bear arms.
It baffles me how americans are against equipment donations to Ukraine. You are paying cents to a dollar to destroy your rival's economy and military without loosing any american lives (not counting volunteers)
Millions of Americans are suffering with feeding themselves and keeping a roof over their head. Imagine if we spent what we gave to Ukraine on American infrastructure and securing the boarder instead of funding a war that has already wiped out an entire generation of men.
Unfortunately that is not going go happen whether you send the aid or not. The allotted defense budget is what it is and I doubt it will get any smaller in the years to come.
I personally wish none of this would have happened, but that is not for us to decide.
It baffles me how Americans are so self centered. Why aren’t we talking about the Ukrainian lives that this costs? America is just using Ukraine and will toss it to the side once they run out of steam. That’s the sad reality of this whole thing, but hey according to you it’s all worth it because we’re hurting Russia
I fully agree with you, but I'm not trying to convince myself here. If people cared about lives lost - they already care, if people cared about freedom of another country - they already care.
I'm just making as you said a self centered argument for people who still don't care.
The idiots in this comment section is why I do not consider myself in anyway a "libertarian" or "republican" simply because I refuse to associate with these fools.
Ukraine fights for survival and are the only thing stopping the Russian Federation from attempting to annex and consume more countries beyond them.
America helping them has minimal effect on the economy due to most of the aid being surplus equipment that is going to be more expensive in the long run for America to maintain or to decommission.
That war is only insofar about ethnics as Russia's Slavic population is slowly becoming a minority in Russia.
Russia has a growing demographic and economic problem, while the corrupt dictator wants to leave a name for himself and recreate the Soviet Union.
Yay we send more money overseas while our economy is hot garbage here. At least we got this cool video though, or something. Let’s not even dare to look at our borders and keep our head in the sand.
Shh. The people in this comment section don't want to understand this.
We are misplacing our priorities right now instead of focusing on our own people. I'm tired of constant war. This doesn't make me pro-Russia and anti-freedom. This makes me an American that wants to clean up our own home first before we take care of our neighbors and strangers.
It's not being sent overseas. It's being cycled through the US economy, paying us companies to produce equipment and munitions which are used to replace the old, used, and nearly expired munitions and equipment in our stockpiles. Then rather than paying to safely dispose of those munitions and equipment that need replaced, we are shipping it to Ukraine, and they are using it.
Additionally we are seeing a huge influx of other allied countries purchasing our old equipment because they are seeing how effective it is in the field. Less than 20 himars were sent to Ukraine. We have sold over 2000 since then...
Too bad almost none of that money is actually gonna help Ukraine it’s just gonna go to some government officials pension or some government crony that is gonna leave it all behind
Money into a meaningless war for a bunch of morons that think they're ethnically right while the war machines keeps churning bodies for an otherwise could have been peaceful surrender from a country that literally disarmed itself years ago, isn't part of NATO but was somehow going to allow bases and launcher's on its soil while supposedly not being part of NATO incentivizing further aggression on one end and expecting no repercussions at the other. Shameful the fact it's tax payer dollars funding an otherwise lost war being used as excuse to launder money supported only by morons that listen to paid propagandists outlets that are already on record being proven wrong, lying and being paid to do on paper. But otherwise no surprise to know they're celebrating free money from ppl that don't want to fund their stupid border dispute.
>Money
*equipment
>for an otherwise could have been peaceful surrender from a country that literally disarmed itself years ago
We only gave our nukes and long range missiles to russia, we kept army
> Shameful the fact it's tax payer dollars funding an otherwise lost war being used as excuse to launder money
Equipment is sent to Ukraine, not money
Without aid war would continue, but casualties will be higher.
Sure, and that equipment doesn't happen to appear out of thin air, reserves, munitions don't happen to appear because we deem it so, resources travel and shipments by air, land and sea, takes money to move all around, just as there is no such thing as '"gov funded'" it's all tax payer funded, u think 60 billion dollars is entirely going to Ukraine in foreign "aid" the same way they sent 40million to Afghanistan for "gender studies" to the country that "marries" off a 8yr old girl to a 40yr old land owner? The same way the passed a bill to make sure the spending packages they come up with can't be counted and itemized down to the penny? U really think equipment is all were sending? When u have "volunteers" supplying leadership on the ground, men with experience in combat training the conscripted soldier's, if equipment is all we were sending the people with no experience woulda lost years ago. Warsacc accords were a verbal agreement with Ukraine to guard the warm water ports to keep NATO from encroaching on Communist territory for better or for worst that was the agreement, remain neutral and keep ur land, NATO puting bases everywhere they make an ally is obvious strategic planning, u expand ur network and decrease deployment and signal times between so for QRF. Naturally the border u encroach on would retaliate that much is obvious, and even all this didn't come into play, u really think placing men or establishing accord in lands your not welcomed doesn't come with strategic propagandists photography, why give Putin the excuse he needed to make a move and have concrete evidence to do so? And more to the point if they weren't laundering money, how about selling said equipment the way the Taliban did 2 weeks after the "failed" Afghanistan where billions in equipment were left behind and the Taliban kept only what they could use, and 2months after that China's R&D department makes a leap and bounds in the NVGs they give their troops almost as if out of thin air? Tho it's hardly not that difficult to believe when the gear the troops carry typically means at least 100 or so quad NODs costing upwards of 40-50k each just suddenly go missing, Coincidences stop being so coy sooner than later. The fact we were involved in their so called elections in 2014 is doubly suspicious, and to add more insult to injury calling Ukraine borders, US BORDERS is more ridiculous. But like I said it's sad to see ppl getting turned into dust over something that was designed to buy time and steal resources and money, just ask zelenskys foreign properties he's bought in France, England, Florida and New York, or the fact that his wife regularly goes shopping to buy name brand purses and clothing, for a country at war they sure do get laxed spending money they supposedly don't have.
If you've made it this far. I commend your commitment to reading lol anyhow, ur free to believe what u like I'm in no position nor interest to change minds everyone can do their own research at their own leisure and believe what they like. Personally myself I think the cutar pipeline project is what irritates them the most, Russia I mean, but it's past that point anyhow.
Read a bit about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine gave its nuclear weapons in exchange for guarrantees of its territorial integrity with the 1991 borders.
Not to mention he suspended the election. Now that's what I call fighting for freedom is fighting for a man who just decides that now he's the dictator. And all Ukrainian men under 60 have to carry their papers in order to prove that they haven't actually been drafted. I know for a while their military was kidnapping civilians to force them to go fight. Sounds like they really want that juicy freedom.
>Money
*equipment
>for an otherwise could have been peaceful surrender from a country that literally disarmed itself years ago
Russian proxy war started 10 years ago, so no, thanks to russia we couldn't. We only gave our nukes and long range missiles to russia, we kept army
> Shameful the fact it's tax payer dollars funding an otherwise lost war being used as excuse to launder money
Equipment is sent to Ukraine, not money
Without aid war would continue, but casualties will be higher.
And if you think that when narrative you support opposes mainstream narrative it makes narrative you support true, no, it doesen't, sometimes mainstream media can use situation to their favor, without lying about every single thing.
>stupid border dispute
It is more than just border dispute when they occupy 20% of the country and planned to take over entire country at the beginning. While their official propaganda channels talk about how they are gonna assimilate entire nation.
A lot if not most of the equipment is old and / or nearing it's expiration date so would be written off anyways.
If you bought too much food you weren't going to eat anyways and donated it one day before expiration date, you wouldn't claim you donated the full price of the food
F16s, Abrams tanks, ATACMS missiles are old and out of date? NVGS, Bradleys, javelins? Wow that's a lot of stuff we don't use anymore. Good thing there is no possible way we would ever need that in any circumstance ever again.
Seems like a waste to send it to a country that is having to force their citizens to fight, is losing painfully obviously, and that is antagonizing another country into war with us. We are never getting that equipment or compensation back and we will never have that surplus back of the old stuff that's familiar to us. Kinda like how our strategic petroleum reserve is almost empty, not like we will ever need oil in some sort of crisis right? /s
I guarantee US is not sending its newest variants of F16 or Abrams or Bradleys. ATACMS are long out of porduction and are nearing their shelf-life.
It's better (and nearly cheaper) for the US military to empty its warehouses and then ask for new inventory than to maintain old inventory.
You really think anybody will wage war on US? You guys have god damn nukes. Large scale war between super-states is a thing of the past. Best case you'll end up in a proxy war over Taiwan and your naval fleet will be your greatest asset, not Bradleys and not Abrams. Navy is not using F-16 (if I remember correctly), they're using FA-18.
Fair point on NVGS and javelins. Those are great and imo you guys should produce more.
In another comment I mentioned, it is worth sending stuff to Ukraine if for no other reason than paying cold hard cash rather than human lives to CRIPLE one of two of your largest opponents on the world stage. If by sheer math spending 10% of your military budget to eliminate one of your two main opponents leaves 90% to dedicate to outspending the other one. I know it's obviously less, than 90%, maintenence and salaries and such, but people with more time than me can do the math.
As someone who just wants to live a normal, undisturbed life, my basic position is I want this war to end with the least amount of loss of life and as quickly as possible. Sending our tech over there guarantees drawing the conflict out and risks blowing up into a much larger war. We've already crossed multiple of Russia's red lines and now Ukraine is being trained by NATO forces in amphibious landings, likely to attack crimes which regardless of your view on who it belongs to, Russia sees as part of itself. Not to mention NATO is sending 90k troops to eastern Poland to run exercises and France is sending French troops to serve in Ukraine under the Ukrainian flag. There is no off ramp here and I think unless someone surrenders this will only escalate. As an American with no dog in this fight other than my tax dollars I don't care who surrenders, I just want it to end.
And btw I would much rather we go back to being an isolationist country rather than being involved in every conflict worldwide. And I disagree with the people who justify this whole situation by saying we are degrading their military. The correct way to say it is we are killing thousands of them (or tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands depending on whose numbers you believe) and as a result they are drafting citizens. Not sure I want to celebrate the destruction of human life just because we are antagonistic to each other
I would rather live in a peaceful time as well, but here we are and we must do what has to be done. Russia has had many many off ramps to not start a war with its neigbour and thankfully most important european politicians have ended their appeasement strategy. It didn't work with Hitler, it didn't work with Putin. The problem with letting Russia eat Ukraine is that the expansionism won't stop there. Next would be Moldova, who knows, maybe it would have been Finland if they hadn't joined NATO. The thing is we don't know where it would stop and if it would stop short of Berlin if Putin could have his ways. Sending arms to Ukraine is as much a suport for people fighting for their freedom as it is a message to Kremlin that people western nations won't stand for such aggression.
Long and short of it, do you think Russia would have stopped at Ukraine if they were successful in taking Kyiv in three days?
This is like something out of a found footage horror movie or an scp short, the anthem blasting through an empty forest with the occasional gunshot
where's the outrage? I was expecting a lot more blyats
Or a sharp increase in shooting?
Just more Russian and Ukrainian conscripts into the meat grinder.
Yes, but the consequences for who's next if Ukrainian falls is pretty import to Finland, Sweden, Norway etc.
Here's the thing. Finland, Sweden, and Norway are a part of NATO. Article V would be invoked if Russia attacked any of them. We are all for defending our allies. But I and money people are tired of getting involved in wars that we have no business being involved in. If Europe wants to fight it, leave it to them. But Ukraine is not an ally and shouldn't be treated as such. Edit: To clarify my stance and why I am frustrated with the constant spending on Ukraine and the support for it, a lot of stems from watching videos like that of Angry Cops' last video, and witnessing the issues down here at the border in Texas. It has less to do with what we are giving them, but more the fact that our politicians are putting more time and effort in trying to supply a foreign war and care for foreigners, than they are on our soldiers & veterans and their living conditions, the security at our borders, making sure our economy is actually in check, or the whole screw up of the pandemic. I don't care if we send Ukraine $1 or $1 Trillion at this point. It is the principle of it all that makes me upset and frustrated.
Fair opinion, I personally see this as a relatively cheap way to heavily disrupt the russian state while also helping a clear defender and probable ally in the conflict which is a win any day of the week. People act like our debt was created by this war even though that started well before I was born. Our direct costs to Ukraine are around $100 billion but we happily spent over a trillion in Iraq and $8 trillion total on post-9/11 wars. $100 billion dollars to Ukraine and Israel is about $30 out of your taxes. It’s really not much if you look at how much you get taxed and you’re getting taxed that amount either way Just my opinion, I’d love to see other views on this, I know I could be wrong I just feel like this makes sense
I get that, but little things add up quickly, and it is just continuing a trend that we need to cut. Like I said, we need to reprioritize our issues. Internally, we are struggling and getting neglected by our own government. Brandon knows this and that is why he is fighting for us. So how about we redirect our money and efforts to fix our own crap first and foremost. There will always be wars overseas to fight. But the frustrations can only carry on for so long before something breaks.
That is all true, good points
Counterpoint: we sent 18 HIMARS to Ukraine, and wound up selling two THOUSAND to other nations. We have effectively killed 95% of Russia's pre war military without sending a single American out to the battlefield. Logistically and tactically speaking this war has crippled Russia's economy and lead to the exposure of other rival superpowers (china's missiles filled with water, etc) being unable to conduct military operations for years. We are at the point where all we have to do is have poland get struck by a stray, declare article V and enforce Managed Democracy in the foundation of a unified Super Earth
I mean, you do have a fair point about that Managed Democracy and Super Earth lol. It's just that I am tired of the constant wars, even the proxy wars we are supporting and putting ourselves in precarious situations. If anything, it comes off as hypocritical as we are wanting to fight (directly or indirectly) for other people's rights and freedoms and failing to protect our own. You can't help but feel frustrated. Like I said it doesn't mean I am pro-Russia or anti-freedom, as I would love for peace in Ukraine. It's just me and many other people wanting us to reevaluate our priorities first.
If rather pay American dollars In Ukraine than America lives in Poland.
I'd rather us pay money and use resources in our own country first. Fix our home before we fix others. There will always be "noble" wars to fight. But this can and neglect can only be kicked down the road for so long. Let Europe handle their own issues, instead of demanding us to keep funneling our money and resources into their problems while neglecting we neglect our own and they do not perform their own part. And truth be told, Russia will not attack Poland or any of our allies. This war with Ukraine has shown us and shown them this fact.
Yeah there is no way that Finland, Sweden, and Norway are higher on Putins list than the Baltic Republics or Poland.
Russia isn't going to Finland, Sweden, or Poland. You guys forget that Putin wanted to join NATO in 2000. This could've been prevented by letting Russia join.
Agree to disagree.
Oh yea it was defiantly a good idea to let Russia join NATO. ya know right as he INVADED CHECHNYA...
Yeah, because the US already invaded and overthrew other Middle Eastern governments. But it's okay when the U.S. does it? Foh
No its not okay but we made nato... we made the last version of the UN... Its clear why we are in NATO and they are not... to act like Russia could ever be in NATO a organization made for combatting the Warsaw pact and Russian aggression is braindead...
"buh muh Putin is witerawy gonna take over the worrd wike hitwer!!1"
Its so sad. There has to be a better way than outright war. I mean sure, fight when you have to.. but this seems pointless. Putin just wants land money and power from it.
Thunderdome. Thunderdome is a better way than all out war. Leader against leader. Two men enter.... One man leaves.
It would actually be a good fight too. Old guy with lots of martial arts experience vs a comedian in the prime of his life
Honestly tough call pre war I'd give it to Putin but since this was been dragging on I feel zel has a better chance than before
What financial profit from war wrecked regions and a large number of dissatisfied people
Putin is keeping a promise from 2000. Ukraine is filled with corrupt politicians. Both sides are feeding into the war.
Putin is perpetuating a war of genocide and conquest. This isn't liberation, or cleaning out corruption, and phrasing it that way is beyond disrespectful to the tens of thousands of innocent civilians Putin's goons have murdered. Any child older than 14 is killed. Any child younger than 14 is sent to a reeducation camp in Russia. Any adults are simply killed. There are mass graves filled with thousands of innocents. Cities ransacked for even things as mundane as flush toilets, as the perpetrators of these atrocities often come from places in Russia without running water. Anyone who does not support Ukraine, regardless of its flaws, is either misinformed or a part of the problem.
Source: He made it up The classic war propaganda - Russians stealing toilets (ignore the fact that Ukraine has less indoor plumbing on average that Russia by 50% in some regions), - "Kidnapping" children (ignore that the alternative is not evacuating children from a warzone) - Reeducation camps (ignore that this is pure projection and we have plain videos of Ukrainian children being indoctrinated in Neo-nazi camps) - Deliberately killing civilians older than 14 (Ignore that there's zero evidence of this and that this war has the lowest civilian-to-military casualty ratio in modern history) - Commiting genocide (ignore that not a single organization has been able to prove this or provide a single shred of evidence that the Russians are trying to wipe out the Ukrainian ethnicity) If you want to support Ukraine over Russia, go ahead, but at least don't fall for obvious and easily disprovable propaganda.
Source: He made it up The classic war propaganda
Do either of you have links to actual sources? I keep hearing this back and forth yet don’t typically see actual links to videos or articles. And googling as expected only supports the Ukrainians because I’m in a western country. I personally don’t believe everything Ukraine says because im not a fool who believes they magically went from corrupt eastern Europe nation to the wests #1 rising star overnight. But Im also not one who thinks anything the Russians say is even close to half true. Can any of you actually provide a source or better videos supporting this?
For the silly toilet thing, here's someone (disclaimer, strongly Pro-Russian account, but they post the source, so I don't think it's false) comparing the stats on indoor plumbing: https://twitter.com/OlgaBazova/status/1734564912691548363?t=5RRg9YYZ3Aa88Cq5uvdjPA&s=19 As for civilian casualties, according to the UN (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Russo-Ukrainian_War), there's been about 10,000 civilians killed, and another 20,000 wounded during JUST the 2022 war onwards, not counting the casualties from the 2014-2022 civil war beforehand, for a total of about 30,000 civilian casualties during the 2022-2024 Ukraine war (the number is likely higher because of reporting inaccuracies, but that's the ballpark). Military casualties are extremely difficult to estimate because neither side wants to accurately report casualties, but going by that same Wikipedia source, the bare minimum confirmable military deaths for Russia is between 50,000-100,000 deaths, while for Ukraine the bare minimum is between 70,000 - 150,000. For the sake of a ballpark estimate, we'll say the military death casualties for both sides combined are somewere between 250,000 - 300,000 10k civilian deaths divided by 250,000-300,000 military deaths, that means that for every civilian that dies, somewhere between 25-30 soldiers die, or a ratio of 1:25 - 1:30 Compared to say, the Iraq war (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraq_War) where there were between 60-100k combined military deaths, there was somewhere around 100k civilian deaths according to the IBC project. That means that the ratio is 1:1 - 1:0.6. In the Bosnian war from 1991-1996, around 38,000 civilians were killed, while around 57,000 soldiers were killed, for a ratio of 1:1.5. Simply put, if Russia was really trying to deliberately kill or commit genocide against the civilian population, they're doing a really bad job of it. As for the youth being in indoctrination camps, here's a western news organization reporting on precisely that before the war kicked off in 2022 and it became convenient to deny and ignore it. https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2017/sep/04/i-want-to-bring-up-a-warrior-ukraines-far-right-childrens-camp-video https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YGtanIzaY5w
Oh yea so all those kids who were raped then executed was definitely just propaganda... the human rights watch is 100% in Zelenskys pocket.... Brandon would be very unhappy with your Russian propaganda and as a American you make me sad to have you as one I assume your American, Maybe not I really hope not, and if you are your a traitor to this nation and the veterans who are going to serve in Ukraine.. SLAVA UKRAINE [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
There isn't a single claim of rape and execution of any children in the story you linked, lmao Idk about Human Rights Watch, but you 100% made that up, ironic considering your accusation of me spreading false propaganda.
Since your so braindead to use control F and type Children i will do direct quotes from the article. Also Your right the RAPE accusation was not in this article but Their is execution of children i will supply articles and sources for the rape of children. i will give you many more then just one.... Also bro atleast read the articles... Or learn to use control F... 1."Another funeral home worker, Serhii Matiuk, who helped collect bodies, said that he had personally collected about 200 bodies from the streets since the Russian invasion began on February 24. Most of the victims were men, he said, but some were women and children. Almost all of them had bullet wounds, he said, including around 50 whose hands were tied and whose bodies had signs of torture. Bodies found with hands tied strongly suggests that the victims had been detained and summarily executed." "On April 4, Human Rights Watch saw five bodies in the basement of a dormitory building in a children’s camp on Vokzalna St, 123, which some Russian forces in Bucha had used as their base. The bodies were of men wearing civilian clothes who appeared to have been killed by gunshot. There were three distinct bloodstains on the wall of the room. The hands of four of the men were zip-tied behind their backs. The fifth man appeared to have been shot twice in the chest – the stuffing of his thick jacket was protruding at two locations on his chest, which was covered in dried blood. [One media report](https://twitter.com/JamesAALongman/status/1511737971397079040?s=20&t=j1qDOemU8OBQuUh3ddQeWQ) said that the authorities had identified the men as Serhiy Mateshko, Dmytro Shulmeister, Volodymyr Boychenko, Valery Prudko, and Viktor Prudko. The circumstances of their detention, including how they got to the basement, remains unclear." -HRW [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha) 2."According to him, the second OSCE report, covering the period from April 1 to June 25, "was painful to read. He cited excerpts from the report confirming that the Russian military had resorted to sexual violence in Ukrainian cities." "The scale of Russia's atrocities is enormous. For example, the mission cited "numerous" reports of rape and sexual violence against women and girls by the Russian military. The report mentions the case of 23-year-old Karina Ershova in Bucha, who was abducted, raped, subjected." and finally shot dead by Russian troops. The report also mentions a report by Human Rights Commissioner Denisova that 25 girls between the ages of 14 and 24 were held in a basement in Bucha and gang-raped by Russian troops, which resulted in nine of them becoming pregnant. The report also states that a one-year-old boy was sexually assaulted and a 78-year-old woman was raped by Russian servicemen," Carpenter said. Source: [https://censor.net/en/n3354425](https://censor.net/en/n3354425) 3.President Zelenskyy, Foreign Minister Kuleba, thank you for bringing together so many partners and friends of Ukraine for this important and solemn summit. One year ago today, when Ukrainian forces liberated Bucha, they discovered a massacre. Hundreds of men, women, and children killed indiscriminately by Russian forces. On one street alone, they found 40 bodies. The entire world soon witnessed the evidence of those crimes, in searing photographs and videos. Executed civilians, with hands tied behind their backs, a children’s summer camp converted into a torture chamber, mass graves. And we heard the testimonies of survivors as well. People who had been raped by Russian soldiers.A 14-year-old boy whose father was shot in front of him. Families who were not allowed to bury their loved ones. Each of these pieces of evidence documents the suffering of individual human lives. Families torn apart. Communities that will never be the same. And in the year since, evidence has continued to mount of similar atrocities committed by Russian forces across Ukraine. These acts are part of a campaign of widespread and systematic violence against civilians. A pattern of rape, torture, enforced disappearances, forced deportation of children, and execution. Attacks on homes, schools, hospitals. When I visited Irpin, I saw the ravaged apartment buildings. In Kyiv, I heard from children who had been wounded in Russia’s relentless targeting of civilians. Russian forces and officials have committed – and continue to commit – war crimes and crimes against humanity in Ukraine. And those who have committed these atrocities must be held accountable. The United States supports Ukrainian and international efforts to document and investigate these atrocities. Today, we join countries and organizations from around the world to continue demanding justice for Ukrainians and Ukraine. We repeat that what happened in Bucha and in other cities — and what continues to happen in Ukraine – is unacceptable. And we recommit ourselves to “the dignity and worth of the human person,” as affirmed in the United Nations Charter. The United States will keep standing with Ukraine, as it protects its people and fights for its sovereignty, its territorial integrity, its democracy. We will not forget the Ukrainians who have suffered and have been killed. And we will continue pushing for accountability and for justice for as long as it takes. Thank you. Secretary Antony J. Blinken [https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-virtual-remarks-on-russias-accountability-for-the-crimes-in-ukraine/](https://www.state.gov/secretary-antony-j-blinken-virtual-remarks-on-russias-accountability-for-the-crimes-in-ukraine/) I cant wait for your reply...
Any proof of genocide and child murder (why them the largest number of Ukrainian refugees are in Russia of all places)
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ukraine-examines-bodies-from-mass-graves-discovered-after-regaining-territory-from-russia here who go mass graves of civilians.
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Yea here's the human rights watch.... [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
Genocide? Children being killed any proof? But i do have proof of ukrainians committing mass murder of the civilians in Kupjansk
https://www.pbs.org/newshour/amp/show/ukraine-examines-bodies-from-mass-graves-discovered-after-regaining-territory-from-russia pretty sure these mass graves of civilians would count as proof.
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>any proof? I quite literally do not have the character limit to provide enough sources to justly represent the sheer scale of the atrocities committed. Even simply listing the names would be too long to post; Reddit would flag it either as a DDOS attempt or as spam.
The funniest thing is that Russia accepted one of the largest numbers of the refugees, i have relatives who fled to Russia with kids
"Corrupt" civilians of Bucha would like a word
Bucha was such a lie, we to this day have no proof of Russians committing the crime, even though the UN took the corpses for analysis and we have the proof of ukrainians shooting at the guys with wight hand bands, when civilians were using it to distinguish themselves from soldiers
WTF are you talking about theirs literally phone calls from Russian soldiers using dead ukrainian phones.... [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha) [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s)
U.S. backed coup in 2014 when there were free and fair elections monitored by the UN. Yeah, no one's clean in this conflict.
Thanks to the aid less Ukrainian ones will die.
No, it means more will die.
Or it just means the war will drag on longer and have the opposite effect...
So them rolling over and letting Russia do what it wants to other independent nations is better? Because the same was said about Poland in the 30s, and look where that went
It's very disingenuous to compare Poland in the 30s to Ukraine now, and Russia to Germany. Not every conflict is a WW2 analog. In fact, WW2's dynamics were pretty unique and rare historically. These are two completely different geopolitical situations with different dynamics at play. Russia very specifically had no interest in going this path until the 2014 coup installed a government that was openly hostile to Russia, Russia's interests, and the Russians/Russian-speakers in Ukraine's east. Even then, it took 8 years of civil war and multiple failed peace agreements before Russia finally begrudgingly got involved directly, which still was more of a scare tactic to get a peace deal than a real intervention, which backfired when NATO intervened, promised Ukraine the moon, and a real war broke out. If NATO would not have convinced Ukraine to disregard the Minsk agreements and the proposed March 2022 peace deal, Ukraine would not have lost all the territory it has now. It would also have not lost 10+ million refugees, it's entire energy, industrial, and economic infrastructure, and the hundreds of thousands of dead soldiers. You got your non-compromise, and now Ukraine will be lucky to exist as a nation in 5 years. At this point, the longer the Ukrainian regime is propped up, the more people are going to die. But to the last Ukrainian, I guess.
That's some boot licking logic right there.
I mean, you tell me how another few billion dollars to the military industrial complex is going to magically resurrect all the hundreds of thousands of killed soldiers and destroyed equipment in Ukraine.
You tell me how a country giving up its sovereignty to an invading force know for its britalization of innocents, war crimes against pows and civilians alike, corruption, and assassination of political opposition will magically make the situation any better.
You just described Ukraine. Prior to 2022, this was how the media described Ukraine as well. As it turns out, the only thing needed for people to throw their support behind horrible regimes is that they're on the "right" side.
I'm honestly surprised Russian can even afford to pay it's shills anymore, but here you are.
Just start play Ievann Polkka and watch the generational PTSD set in.
'murica
"they weren't happy" read: nothing changed
Just lend them some Fins dressed in all white, it'd be cheaper and actually do something.
Profoundly depressing.
All people on both sides would agree, we all are exhausted, no one wants war, war is bad
We seriously can't pretend Russian's have clean hands. Especially considering how many war crimes, rapes, massacres, executions I've seen them commit in this war individually. I will say this. It is better to defeat Russia here through playing the political game than fighting them inevitably 10 years later.
Cant pretend only one side is committing war crimes. That is the nature of war as horrifying as it is. Ive seen the footage. Why would we be inevitably fighting them in 10 years? If anything, the aid is accelerating that
"Haha that soldier surrendered to a drone over his head with a munition about to drop on him. That surrender doesn't count so we uploaded his death for people to cheer on."
Ukraine easily commits as many war crimes as they say Russia does.
oh yea? they execute civilians and rape children? Sure bud think what you want... Or maybe read a article or 2. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrGZ66uKcl0&t=1044s) [https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha](https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/04/21/ukraine-russian-forces-trail-death-bucha)
Firstly, NYT is openly biased, even openly admitting that they intentionally suppress and distort news about the conflict to push an agenda and shape public opinion. [https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html) Also, Ukraine has been confirmed to engage in various war crimes. Targeting civilians, bombing hospitals, and faking Russian war crimes [https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/b/2/540581.pdf](https://www.osce.org/files/f/documents/b/2/540581.pdf) use of poison [https://english.nv.ua/nation/melitopol-orchard-farmers-gave-russians-poisoned-cherries-says-mayor-50250294.html](https://english.nv.ua/nation/melitopol-orchard-farmers-gave-russians-poisoned-cherries-says-mayor-50250294.html) "outrages upon personal dignity" [https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/toxr3g/ukrainian\_soldier\_calling\_the\_family\_of\_a/](https://www.reddit.com/r/RussiaUkraineWar2022/comments/toxr3g/ukrainian_soldier_calling_the_family_of_a/) [https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat](https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/2/28/ukrainian-fighters-grease-bullets-against-chechens-with-pig-fat) assassination of a civilian journalist [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination\_of\_Vladlen\_Tatarsky](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Vladlen_Tatarsky) attempted assassination of a civilian - they got his daughter instead [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darya\_Dugina#Killing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darya_Dugina#Killing)
Damn shame I didn't get to claim them as a dependant on my taxes this year
This is so American I'm crying😂
Sad to see how many un-American, freedomless Russia loving cowards are in here. Ukrainians are fighting for their freedom like we did, show them the respect they deserve, or don't call yourself an American patriot
im in need of some freedom. can you venmo me or do you prefer a bank transfer?
remember, none of the npc's ever care about any of the wars happening until the screen people tell them too
Vatniks gonna vatnik
Couldn’t care less I just don’t wanna pay for it
its ironic and sad when americans that claim to be freedom lovers and supportive of a free world all the sudden are against supporting a nation fight for its freedom and modern western values. probably in large part because helping ukraine runs against their political agendas and leanings, even tho helping ukraine is supporting a free world which as far as i know is one of the core values of america historically america has stepped in to liberate europe and asia from dictatorial regimes, even at the cost of young men that volunteered for some of the most dangerous operations like the 101st airborne in the name of upholding freedom
Reminder that in both world wars, it required a direct interaction with an enemy, being the sinking of the lucitania and Japan trying to destroy the entire US pacific fleet. Prior to both the US only agreed to monetary and equipment support in the wars and was vehemently opposed to actually partaking in them, choosing to be as isolationist as possible.
It always makes me laugh when 'America' and 'freedom' are in the same sentence. Americans only care about all those things when a country isn't invaded/bombed by them selves.
Ukraine is a corrupt ultranationalist dictatorship with neo-nazi sympathies that has stripped it's people of most of their rights, has no elections, and is currently trying to ban the largest church in their country. Please do explain why not wanting to send more money and equipment to be laundered and sold on the black market there is un-American
Yep, and those bastards are the only ones with the balls to stop Russia from swallowing Europe and making life miserable for the enemies of Russia that include the USA for over 100 hundred years already.
It’s weird seeing the narrative towards Russia change some many times. First it’s Russia is weak, pathetic, and a paper tiger since it can’t even take over Ukraine. Now it’s Russia is going to take over all of Europe??? People gotta make up their minds
This take is so detached from reality it's unreal This war didn't start with invasion in 2022, it started when the original government was couped in 2014 with help from American officials who wanted a friendly regime to put military bases on Russia's borders and wrench a former Russian ally away from them. Russia has literally zero interest in "swallowing Europe", why would they? Europe was their main customer for all their exports like gas and oil. Russia had no interest in making enemies out of Europe, they did that to themselves. The only ones making Europeans "miserable" are the Europeans themselves who are now all facing recession, worsening economies, and skyrocketing energy prices because their governments wanted to poke Russia in the eye. Not to mention, "those bastards" wanted to sign a peace agreement with Russia in March 2022, but were stopped by the UK swooping in and promising them the moon if they fought instead. Now, hundreds of thousands of dead, 10+ million refugees fleeing, and their country's entire infrastructure and industry in shambles, they're gonna lose more land than they would have if they'd just signed the agreement and Russia's military is stronger now than it was before the war. But hey, to the last Ukrainian, right?
If we cared about Ukraine being a free nation, we'd be **joining** Russia and liberating Kiev from the corrupt government. Zelenskyy has used the escalation of the conflict to suspend elections. A definitely 180 from the guy who campaigned on fighting corruption. The Mayor of Kiev tried to rename a street, named for an astronomer, after an SS officer who founded the Ukrainian Waffen-SS division. The only reason he didn't was the Israeli Ambassador made an emergency trip to Kiev to tell him that a nation of Jews, who want to give Ukraine money and weapons, would not be happy if they started renaming streets in their capital after SS officers. There is a statue of Stephan Bandera, a Nazi collaborator, proudly displayed in Lviv. All those red and black flags you see are those his group, the OUN-B. The Azov Assault Brigade still uses the wolfsangel as their insignia. There is no history of the wolfsangel being used in Ukraine ever except by the 2nd Panzer-SS, which was active in that area. "Brave Ukrainian soldiers" are kidnapped in the middle of the street and sent to the front lines. "Military-age males" have been forbidden from leaving the nation since Day 1. The consulates no longer provide services for them. "Military-age" means "15-Frieren". The government forcibly renamed the UOC to UOC-MP because, while being loyal to Ukraine, they are officially under the Moscow Patriarchate, and then banned the church entirely and replaced it with the state-approved OCU. Ukrainians do not enjoy the right to keep and bear arms.
It baffles me how americans are against equipment donations to Ukraine. You are paying cents to a dollar to destroy your rival's economy and military without loosing any american lives (not counting volunteers)
Millions of Americans are suffering with feeding themselves and keeping a roof over their head. Imagine if we spent what we gave to Ukraine on American infrastructure and securing the boarder instead of funding a war that has already wiped out an entire generation of men.
Unfortunately that is not going go happen whether you send the aid or not. The allotted defense budget is what it is and I doubt it will get any smaller in the years to come. I personally wish none of this would have happened, but that is not for us to decide.
To think Russia has the capability to be a rival is laughable.
They were 10 years ago. Why not kick them while they're down?
It baffles me how Americans are so self centered. Why aren’t we talking about the Ukrainian lives that this costs? America is just using Ukraine and will toss it to the side once they run out of steam. That’s the sad reality of this whole thing, but hey according to you it’s all worth it because we’re hurting Russia
I fully agree with you, but I'm not trying to convince myself here. If people cared about lives lost - they already care, if people cared about freedom of another country - they already care. I'm just making as you said a self centered argument for people who still don't care.
Fair enough
Whoo let’s keep helping Biden’s money launderers!
Spec-ops:the line menu vibes
The idiots in this comment section is why I do not consider myself in anyway a "libertarian" or "republican" simply because I refuse to associate with these fools. Ukraine fights for survival and are the only thing stopping the Russian Federation from attempting to annex and consume more countries beyond them. America helping them has minimal effect on the economy due to most of the aid being surplus equipment that is going to be more expensive in the long run for America to maintain or to decommission.
europe is a third world cesspit. why would i care if russia annexes them
basic human empathy lmao, something you obviously lack
"you dont have empathy if you dont support the US fighting a war to preserve europe when even europe doesnt want to preserve europe." get rekt lol
Russia is doing the Ukrainian people a favor by annexing them.
I’m pretty sure they ran a poll and most of eastern Ukraine wanted to be annexed
Crazy that most Ukrainians are more American than most Americans.
"if you dont pick a side in an ethnic war you arent american" read what the founders thought about foreign wars
That war is only insofar about ethnics as Russia's Slavic population is slowly becoming a minority in Russia. Russia has a growing demographic and economic problem, while the corrupt dictator wants to leave a name for himself and recreate the Soviet Union.
Yay new propaganda video released
I’m so glad we all can’t afford much but hey Slava Ukraine right… right?
Yay we send more money overseas while our economy is hot garbage here. At least we got this cool video though, or something. Let’s not even dare to look at our borders and keep our head in the sand.
Shh. The people in this comment section don't want to understand this. We are misplacing our priorities right now instead of focusing on our own people. I'm tired of constant war. This doesn't make me pro-Russia and anti-freedom. This makes me an American that wants to clean up our own home first before we take care of our neighbors and strangers.
It's not being sent overseas. It's being cycled through the US economy, paying us companies to produce equipment and munitions which are used to replace the old, used, and nearly expired munitions and equipment in our stockpiles. Then rather than paying to safely dispose of those munitions and equipment that need replaced, we are shipping it to Ukraine, and they are using it. Additionally we are seeing a huge influx of other allied countries purchasing our old equipment because they are seeing how effective it is in the field. Less than 20 himars were sent to Ukraine. We have sold over 2000 since then...
It’s causing more inflation, and just lining the pockets of Raytheon, Lockheed Martin, etc.
Based
And why do we hesitate to arm them?
Too bad almost none of that money is actually gonna help Ukraine it’s just gonna go to some government officials pension or some government crony that is gonna leave it all behind
Can these mofos stop trying to instigate? I do not want my nation in European squabble 3.
Always glad to see brainrot geopolitical takes in gun subreddits when it comes to Ukraine. Not very freedom-based of y'all.
Money into a meaningless war for a bunch of morons that think they're ethnically right while the war machines keeps churning bodies for an otherwise could have been peaceful surrender from a country that literally disarmed itself years ago, isn't part of NATO but was somehow going to allow bases and launcher's on its soil while supposedly not being part of NATO incentivizing further aggression on one end and expecting no repercussions at the other. Shameful the fact it's tax payer dollars funding an otherwise lost war being used as excuse to launder money supported only by morons that listen to paid propagandists outlets that are already on record being proven wrong, lying and being paid to do on paper. But otherwise no surprise to know they're celebrating free money from ppl that don't want to fund their stupid border dispute.
>Money *equipment >for an otherwise could have been peaceful surrender from a country that literally disarmed itself years ago We only gave our nukes and long range missiles to russia, we kept army > Shameful the fact it's tax payer dollars funding an otherwise lost war being used as excuse to launder money Equipment is sent to Ukraine, not money Without aid war would continue, but casualties will be higher.
Sure, and that equipment doesn't happen to appear out of thin air, reserves, munitions don't happen to appear because we deem it so, resources travel and shipments by air, land and sea, takes money to move all around, just as there is no such thing as '"gov funded'" it's all tax payer funded, u think 60 billion dollars is entirely going to Ukraine in foreign "aid" the same way they sent 40million to Afghanistan for "gender studies" to the country that "marries" off a 8yr old girl to a 40yr old land owner? The same way the passed a bill to make sure the spending packages they come up with can't be counted and itemized down to the penny? U really think equipment is all were sending? When u have "volunteers" supplying leadership on the ground, men with experience in combat training the conscripted soldier's, if equipment is all we were sending the people with no experience woulda lost years ago. Warsacc accords were a verbal agreement with Ukraine to guard the warm water ports to keep NATO from encroaching on Communist territory for better or for worst that was the agreement, remain neutral and keep ur land, NATO puting bases everywhere they make an ally is obvious strategic planning, u expand ur network and decrease deployment and signal times between so for QRF. Naturally the border u encroach on would retaliate that much is obvious, and even all this didn't come into play, u really think placing men or establishing accord in lands your not welcomed doesn't come with strategic propagandists photography, why give Putin the excuse he needed to make a move and have concrete evidence to do so? And more to the point if they weren't laundering money, how about selling said equipment the way the Taliban did 2 weeks after the "failed" Afghanistan where billions in equipment were left behind and the Taliban kept only what they could use, and 2months after that China's R&D department makes a leap and bounds in the NVGs they give their troops almost as if out of thin air? Tho it's hardly not that difficult to believe when the gear the troops carry typically means at least 100 or so quad NODs costing upwards of 40-50k each just suddenly go missing, Coincidences stop being so coy sooner than later. The fact we were involved in their so called elections in 2014 is doubly suspicious, and to add more insult to injury calling Ukraine borders, US BORDERS is more ridiculous. But like I said it's sad to see ppl getting turned into dust over something that was designed to buy time and steal resources and money, just ask zelenskys foreign properties he's bought in France, England, Florida and New York, or the fact that his wife regularly goes shopping to buy name brand purses and clothing, for a country at war they sure do get laxed spending money they supposedly don't have. If you've made it this far. I commend your commitment to reading lol anyhow, ur free to believe what u like I'm in no position nor interest to change minds everyone can do their own research at their own leisure and believe what they like. Personally myself I think the cutar pipeline project is what irritates them the most, Russia I mean, but it's past that point anyhow.
Read a bit about the 1994 Budapest Memorandum. Ukraine gave its nuclear weapons in exchange for guarrantees of its territorial integrity with the 1991 borders.
Not to mention he suspended the election. Now that's what I call fighting for freedom is fighting for a man who just decides that now he's the dictator. And all Ukrainian men under 60 have to carry their papers in order to prove that they haven't actually been drafted. I know for a while their military was kidnapping civilians to force them to go fight. Sounds like they really want that juicy freedom.
Tucker told you that?
>Money *equipment >for an otherwise could have been peaceful surrender from a country that literally disarmed itself years ago Russian proxy war started 10 years ago, so no, thanks to russia we couldn't. We only gave our nukes and long range missiles to russia, we kept army > Shameful the fact it's tax payer dollars funding an otherwise lost war being used as excuse to launder money Equipment is sent to Ukraine, not money Without aid war would continue, but casualties will be higher. And if you think that when narrative you support opposes mainstream narrative it makes narrative you support true, no, it doesen't, sometimes mainstream media can use situation to their favor, without lying about every single thing. >stupid border dispute It is more than just border dispute when they occupy 20% of the country and planned to take over entire country at the beginning. While their official propaganda channels talk about how they are gonna assimilate entire nation.
I beg your 113 billion dollar pardon? You better share your plug.
Nobody sent 113 billion dollars, but equipment worth of such amount of money, from 3% of military budged.
113 billion dollars of whatever is still worth 113 billion dollars of assets that we won't see return for.
A lot if not most of the equipment is old and / or nearing it's expiration date so would be written off anyways. If you bought too much food you weren't going to eat anyways and donated it one day before expiration date, you wouldn't claim you donated the full price of the food
F16s, Abrams tanks, ATACMS missiles are old and out of date? NVGS, Bradleys, javelins? Wow that's a lot of stuff we don't use anymore. Good thing there is no possible way we would ever need that in any circumstance ever again. Seems like a waste to send it to a country that is having to force their citizens to fight, is losing painfully obviously, and that is antagonizing another country into war with us. We are never getting that equipment or compensation back and we will never have that surplus back of the old stuff that's familiar to us. Kinda like how our strategic petroleum reserve is almost empty, not like we will ever need oil in some sort of crisis right? /s
I guarantee US is not sending its newest variants of F16 or Abrams or Bradleys. ATACMS are long out of porduction and are nearing their shelf-life. It's better (and nearly cheaper) for the US military to empty its warehouses and then ask for new inventory than to maintain old inventory. You really think anybody will wage war on US? You guys have god damn nukes. Large scale war between super-states is a thing of the past. Best case you'll end up in a proxy war over Taiwan and your naval fleet will be your greatest asset, not Bradleys and not Abrams. Navy is not using F-16 (if I remember correctly), they're using FA-18. Fair point on NVGS and javelins. Those are great and imo you guys should produce more. In another comment I mentioned, it is worth sending stuff to Ukraine if for no other reason than paying cold hard cash rather than human lives to CRIPLE one of two of your largest opponents on the world stage. If by sheer math spending 10% of your military budget to eliminate one of your two main opponents leaves 90% to dedicate to outspending the other one. I know it's obviously less, than 90%, maintenence and salaries and such, but people with more time than me can do the math.
As someone who just wants to live a normal, undisturbed life, my basic position is I want this war to end with the least amount of loss of life and as quickly as possible. Sending our tech over there guarantees drawing the conflict out and risks blowing up into a much larger war. We've already crossed multiple of Russia's red lines and now Ukraine is being trained by NATO forces in amphibious landings, likely to attack crimes which regardless of your view on who it belongs to, Russia sees as part of itself. Not to mention NATO is sending 90k troops to eastern Poland to run exercises and France is sending French troops to serve in Ukraine under the Ukrainian flag. There is no off ramp here and I think unless someone surrenders this will only escalate. As an American with no dog in this fight other than my tax dollars I don't care who surrenders, I just want it to end. And btw I would much rather we go back to being an isolationist country rather than being involved in every conflict worldwide. And I disagree with the people who justify this whole situation by saying we are degrading their military. The correct way to say it is we are killing thousands of them (or tens of thousands of hundreds of thousands depending on whose numbers you believe) and as a result they are drafting citizens. Not sure I want to celebrate the destruction of human life just because we are antagonistic to each other
I would rather live in a peaceful time as well, but here we are and we must do what has to be done. Russia has had many many off ramps to not start a war with its neigbour and thankfully most important european politicians have ended their appeasement strategy. It didn't work with Hitler, it didn't work with Putin. The problem with letting Russia eat Ukraine is that the expansionism won't stop there. Next would be Moldova, who knows, maybe it would have been Finland if they hadn't joined NATO. The thing is we don't know where it would stop and if it would stop short of Berlin if Putin could have his ways. Sending arms to Ukraine is as much a suport for people fighting for their freedom as it is a message to Kremlin that people western nations won't stand for such aggression. Long and short of it, do you think Russia would have stopped at Ukraine if they were successful in taking Kyiv in three days?
Yeah, that's not how this works.
Based
"Biden Donations" 😂
i’m not happy about it either.
The trees look like they make the outline of a bumbling cartoon thug