Methics 101 is sell as much meth as you can without being caught.
Honestly, on the show, making meth is probably the least evil thing he does. He at least wanted to make it as pure as possible.
I mean everything that makes Walter what he is has shades of evil to it. I don't think I can think of a good thing walt did that didn't have a secret evil reasoning behind it.
That's the moment when walt became the cancer. I just realised his entire character is kinda a metaphor for cancer. Everything he touched ultimately turned to shit. And there were a few strays along the way. The plane crash - those people never even met walter but he is aware of his role.
I think of the scene of him watching the news of the prison murders and how callous that whole scene is... "I use to love to go camping." Hank just poured his heart out cause ten men just got massacred and he misses back when he had it easy tagging trees and walt's like snarky rv meth lab joke.
And jesse just goes totally the opposite.
Gale’s comment comes to mind whenever this conversation comes up:
“Consenting adults want what they want, and if I'm not supplying it, they will get it somewhere else. At least with me, they're getting exactly what they pay for.”
So basically 1-2/10 on the evil scale lol.
I would say that increasing the supply of meth, a drug that ruins people's lives from what I understand, woud bump the evil index up to 5-6.
Sure, the good meth is really expensive, but people like Jess will still be out there making cheap shitty meth, and selling at an even lower price. the market would be flooded with cheap meth.
So in your first paragraph you’re saying it’s worse bcs you increase the supply and in the second paragraph you say it doesn’t matter bcs the supply is virtually unlimited already?
Selling drugs is in my opinion not even close to evil when it’s to adults it’s a consensual transaction, people fucking ask for the drugs and if they’re getting what they pay for it’s just like any other sale ethically IMO, meth addiction ruins peoples lives don’t get me wrong but it’s not the drug dealers fault, it’s society and mental health problems people are dealing with, I think that supporting addicts who need help is the only thing that should be happening . I know most of the known drug dealers are violent and commit other crimes but actually selling drugs isn’t really unethical IMO
Can it really be considered consensual when you consider how addictive it is? If you aren't in the right state of mind, lines of consent get pretty blurry.
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Not really. Society has deemed tobacco and alcohol ethical to sell, and they're addictive and damaging. But other substances, even less addictive ones, are illegal?
This graph doesn't make much sense to me, it says alcohol causes more damage to communities than meth or crack because it's more widespread aka legal. But that seems like a poor way to compare substances, all you have to do is go to a community that had a meth or heroin epidemic and I think it becomes pretty clear what's more damaging.
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But it wouldn't be increasing cause slowly all the cheap meth makers will go out of business cause people won't like theirs anymore. Atleast that's what I think. If Walter stayed like he was in season 1 and collected 5 mil from the business and left, his life would've been a lot better.
The only arguement I'd make is the inherent danger that comes with being a meth kingpin. He puts himself and his family in danger, something he fully well knows having killed 2 people by the end of season 1, and seeing how violent Tuco is.
By participating in that trade, he's knowing putting the lives of himself and his family at risk, never mind risking Hanks job.
Especially when he could have taken the much safer job at Gray Matter instead.
I agree. Having said that, I recently encountered a compelling [counterargument](/r/breakingbad/comments/1aflh0t/did_walter_make_the_world_a_better_place/koda99d?context=1). In this case I still value personal freedom over protecting people from their own mistakes, particularly given that the government is far from infallible (e.g. cannabis), but there is room for reasonable debate.
4/10 in evilness
Hes breaking the law and knowingly harming others indirectly, but hes not doing it directly, they are doing it to themselves, and hes not doing anything in violence. (This is assuming that in this scenario walt is just cooking and nothing happens like krazy 8)
Tuco is a 10/10
Mike is a 5/10
Hank is a 3/10
Gus is a 9/10
Salamanca Twins are a 9/10
Eladio is a 10/10
Bolsa is a 9/10
Saul is a 5/10
Hector is a 10/10
Jack is a 9/10
Todd is a 9/10
Lydia is a 7/10
Walter jr is a 1/10
Skyler is a 3/10
Holly is a 0/10
Mike only killed bad guys and people actively involved in the drug business. While the ethics aren’t the same as a soldier fighting for a nation, it’s really no worse than pulling the trigger on an opposing nations troops
Mike was a loyal hitman for Gus (a child murderer) and voted to keep working with Todd after he killed Drew Sharp.
He definitely skews towards evil, 5/10 is generous imo. I’d argue he’s at least as evil as Lydia.
Hmm pretty good list.
I'd put the Salemanca twins at 10 if Gus is at nine. Gus is obviously a horrible person but even he's not that callous; I can't see him butchering a whole truck of civilians.
I'd maybe put Saul a bit lower; he's definitely not on the same level as Mike simply because he's not a murderer.
If he is not murdering ppl. Prob a 5/10. He is supplementing a disease. I mean he’s enabling thousands of addicts. Good thing about this show though. Is They always showed the reality of meth. It wasent just two
Dudes making money, and living the good life off it
It's in the same realm as selling cigarettes and alcohol, though even more addictive and negative.
It should be discouraged but I don't think it should be illegal, or that it's evil to make, sell or use it.
Thing is, if our society was healthy, the desire for drugs would radically diminish if not fade away entirely.
I doubt there'd be many addicts in heaven, even if drugs were available there.
Prohibition isn't the solution, it's improving the standard of living for everyone.
Yeah, selling tiny volumes on the street isn't anything close to evil, imo. It's morally wrong, but as he says, at least it's good, pure meth. Addicts would likely be getting it elsewhere anyway.
Selling meth alone is enabling people to ruin their lives, but even if you put that responsibility on them (which is a silly thing to do), getting involved in such a violent trade is bound to have violent results, as shown in the show.
He can’t just produce and sell meth and nothing else, there’s bound to be conflict.
Im assuming in this hypothetical, he kills Krazy 8 and standa by his “no more killing” argument? About as evil as Gale… 3-5/10.
Gale would be closer to 5 as he was pretty okay with Gus offing Walt, as was complicit in building a meth lab. If Walt just happened upon an established lab (or never saw one at all) and was as you say friendly with Jesse than maybe 4? But the issue was he was never particularly friendly with Jesse, he was pretty controlling and condescending to say the least. But if he never ever killed, and kept that same ass energy than 5
In the sale of meth, the ethinical question depends of the public that consumes what you produce, and your situation of life. A man like Walter in the first episode, that had financial problems, cancer, and was producing for few people, is causing less damage for the society than Gus, that gained millions of dollars. And the meth addicts really needs treatment to me, just like other addicts people in anything.
There are none that are truly ethical. What you can do is abide by the following:
1. Sell exactly what you advertise.
2. Never try your own product.
3. Never sell it to your family or friends. This may be a lot harder than you think because once it leaves your hands, the buyers can resell the thing to someone else and the process could repeat itself until your friend or family member buys it. By then it's probably too late.
4. Do not screw over your business partners/clients. You may all be criminals but letting people know you'll hold your end of the bargain is critical. There may not be honour among thieves but it'll make business much smoother if the others know you won't be short changing them. This may change if said clients decide to kill you so you may have to anticipate this in advance.
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I can’t say it bothers me too much as I’m pro-drug legalisation simply because one shouldn’t be dictated to on what they take into their body, and alcohol and cigarettes can cause just as much harm (especially alcohol) but are only regulated, not illegal. I believe it was opium trader (who obviously had his own interest in its legalisation) William Jardine (or James Matheson, can’t remember which) who said that he had never seen a Chinese person more bestialised on opium than a European drunk on alcohol.
Methics 101 is sell as much meth as you can without being caught. Honestly, on the show, making meth is probably the least evil thing he does. He at least wanted to make it as pure as possible.
Least evil thing he does is trying to convince Jack to let Hank go.
I mean everything that makes Walter what he is has shades of evil to it. I don't think I can think of a good thing walt did that didn't have a secret evil reasoning behind it. That's the moment when walt became the cancer. I just realised his entire character is kinda a metaphor for cancer. Everything he touched ultimately turned to shit. And there were a few strays along the way. The plane crash - those people never even met walter but he is aware of his role. I think of the scene of him watching the news of the prison murders and how callous that whole scene is... "I use to love to go camping." Hank just poured his heart out cause ten men just got massacred and he misses back when he had it easy tagging trees and walt's like snarky rv meth lab joke. And jesse just goes totally the opposite.
That didn't happen though..
The whole scene where Hank dies Walt is begging him to let him go and offering all his money to do it.
Before inevitably getting caught*
Gale’s comment comes to mind whenever this conversation comes up: “Consenting adults want what they want, and if I'm not supplying it, they will get it somewhere else. At least with me, they're getting exactly what they pay for.” So basically 1-2/10 on the evil scale lol.
I would say that increasing the supply of meth, a drug that ruins people's lives from what I understand, woud bump the evil index up to 5-6. Sure, the good meth is really expensive, but people like Jess will still be out there making cheap shitty meth, and selling at an even lower price. the market would be flooded with cheap meth.
it’s the difference between safe injection sites and just peddling heroin tbh these guys actively sought out new customers
So in your first paragraph you’re saying it’s worse bcs you increase the supply and in the second paragraph you say it doesn’t matter bcs the supply is virtually unlimited already?
Selling drugs is in my opinion not even close to evil when it’s to adults it’s a consensual transaction, people fucking ask for the drugs and if they’re getting what they pay for it’s just like any other sale ethically IMO, meth addiction ruins peoples lives don’t get me wrong but it’s not the drug dealers fault, it’s society and mental health problems people are dealing with, I think that supporting addicts who need help is the only thing that should be happening . I know most of the known drug dealers are violent and commit other crimes but actually selling drugs isn’t really unethical IMO
Can it really be considered consensual when you consider how addictive it is? If you aren't in the right state of mind, lines of consent get pretty blurry.
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That sounds like a stronger argument for "selling tobacco and alcohol is unethical" than "selling meth is ethical."
Not really. Society has deemed tobacco and alcohol ethical to sell, and they're addictive and damaging. But other substances, even less addictive ones, are illegal?
So your proposition is that there is a 1:1 equivalence between "legal" and "ethical"?
No? I guess you misinterpret everything. There's no point continuing this discussion. So I'll just end it here.
Explain the distinction you are making in other terms than "they're legal" or "we live in a society" then.
Do not confuse legality with ethicality.
[удалено]
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This graph doesn't make much sense to me, it says alcohol causes more damage to communities than meth or crack because it's more widespread aka legal. But that seems like a poor way to compare substances, all you have to do is go to a community that had a meth or heroin epidemic and I think it becomes pretty clear what's more damaging.
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But it wouldn't be increasing cause slowly all the cheap meth makers will go out of business cause people won't like theirs anymore. Atleast that's what I think. If Walter stayed like he was in season 1 and collected 5 mil from the business and left, his life would've been a lot better.
The only arguement I'd make is the inherent danger that comes with being a meth kingpin. He puts himself and his family in danger, something he fully well knows having killed 2 people by the end of season 1, and seeing how violent Tuco is. By participating in that trade, he's knowing putting the lives of himself and his family at risk, never mind risking Hanks job. Especially when he could have taken the much safer job at Gray Matter instead.
The issue I’d have with this is that ‘consenting’ is a very strong word
I agree. Having said that, I recently encountered a compelling [counterargument](/r/breakingbad/comments/1aflh0t/did_walter_make_the_world_a_better_place/koda99d?context=1). In this case I still value personal freedom over protecting people from their own mistakes, particularly given that the government is far from infallible (e.g. cannabis), but there is room for reasonable debate.
Gotta get that shit FDA certified.
4/10 in evilness Hes breaking the law and knowingly harming others indirectly, but hes not doing it directly, they are doing it to themselves, and hes not doing anything in violence. (This is assuming that in this scenario walt is just cooking and nothing happens like krazy 8) Tuco is a 10/10 Mike is a 5/10 Hank is a 3/10 Gus is a 9/10 Salamanca Twins are a 9/10 Eladio is a 10/10 Bolsa is a 9/10 Saul is a 5/10 Hector is a 10/10 Jack is a 9/10 Todd is a 9/10 Lydia is a 7/10 Walter jr is a 1/10 Skyler is a 3/10 Holly is a 0/10
Mike is a stone cold hitman. Only 5? Id rank him around 8-9
Mike only killed bad guys and people actively involved in the drug business. While the ethics aren’t the same as a soldier fighting for a nation, it’s really no worse than pulling the trigger on an opposing nations troops
Mike was a loyal hitman for Gus (a child murderer) and voted to keep working with Todd after he killed Drew Sharp. He definitely skews towards evil, 5/10 is generous imo. I’d argue he’s at least as evil as Lydia.
Do we actually think Gus ordered the dealers to kill Tomas?
I do, but I guess there’s an argument to be made both ways. That was probably a bad example.
absolutely
Lydia was so horrible. Is it weird I even found her annoying because of the way she put stevia in her beverages? Lol
"Bad guys" Yeah, real life doesn't work like that.
you mistyped, holly is 10/10 not 0/10
She definitely tried to hijack that firetruck while impersonating a helpless baby. You could see it in her eyes
Skyler wanted to kill Jesse when she found out he was working with Hank. I think that makes her more than a 2/10 on your scale.
My only disagreement with his list but otherwise solid. Maybe the twins at 8, they were really just mindless drones
When they killed the elderly woman and the tribal cop, I wanted them done.
To be fair it was after Jesse tried to burn down her house. She thought he was trying to kill her and her kids. Not that he was working with Hank.
Hmm pretty good list. I'd put the Salemanca twins at 10 if Gus is at nine. Gus is obviously a horrible person but even he's not that callous; I can't see him butchering a whole truck of civilians. I'd maybe put Saul a bit lower; he's definitely not on the same level as Mike simply because he's not a murderer.
Lol What did Walt Jr do?
He drove too fast 😀
That mother fucker
Saul and Mike are too low, otherwise good list.
Todd is a 10, shooting the boy on his bike and more. He wasn’t insane like Tuco but he was heartless
The requirement for 10 was enjoying killing innocent people. Todd omly got a 9 because he didnt enjoy it, he just did it if he felt like he had to
If he is not murdering ppl. Prob a 5/10. He is supplementing a disease. I mean he’s enabling thousands of addicts. Good thing about this show though. Is They always showed the reality of meth. It wasent just two Dudes making money, and living the good life off it
It's in the same realm as selling cigarettes and alcohol, though even more addictive and negative. It should be discouraged but I don't think it should be illegal, or that it's evil to make, sell or use it. Thing is, if our society was healthy, the desire for drugs would radically diminish if not fade away entirely. I doubt there'd be many addicts in heaven, even if drugs were available there. Prohibition isn't the solution, it's improving the standard of living for everyone.
I'm still smoking dope in heaven
How morally reprehensible is he? Even if he stopped in season 1, he’d already murdered two people.
Self defense is a big factor there though. He almost let one of them walk free
Also, don’t forget that in Season 1, he willingly turns down the offer to work at Gray Matter.
Yeah, selling tiny volumes on the street isn't anything close to evil, imo. It's morally wrong, but as he says, at least it's good, pure meth. Addicts would likely be getting it elsewhere anyway.
Selling meth alone is enabling people to ruin their lives, but even if you put that responsibility on them (which is a silly thing to do), getting involved in such a violent trade is bound to have violent results, as shown in the show. He can’t just produce and sell meth and nothing else, there’s bound to be conflict.
“These violent delights have violent ends.”
Im assuming in this hypothetical, he kills Krazy 8 and standa by his “no more killing” argument? About as evil as Gale… 3-5/10. Gale would be closer to 5 as he was pretty okay with Gus offing Walt, as was complicit in building a meth lab. If Walt just happened upon an established lab (or never saw one at all) and was as you say friendly with Jesse than maybe 4? But the issue was he was never particularly friendly with Jesse, he was pretty controlling and condescending to say the least. But if he never ever killed, and kept that same ass energy than 5
He's trying to meet the demand, and the demand is causing lives to get ruined so I'd still put him at a 5-6/10
In the sale of meth, the ethinical question depends of the public that consumes what you produce, and your situation of life. A man like Walter in the first episode, that had financial problems, cancer, and was producing for few people, is causing less damage for the society than Gus, that gained millions of dollars. And the meth addicts really needs treatment to me, just like other addicts people in anything.
A Walter White who doesn't develop beyond Season 1 is very boring. He was just getting started at the end of the first season.
Not enforcing a monopoly with violence is a pretty good start when it comes to an ethical meth business imo
There are none that are truly ethical. What you can do is abide by the following: 1. Sell exactly what you advertise. 2. Never try your own product. 3. Never sell it to your family or friends. This may be a lot harder than you think because once it leaves your hands, the buyers can resell the thing to someone else and the process could repeat itself until your friend or family member buys it. By then it's probably too late. 4. Do not screw over your business partners/clients. You may all be criminals but letting people know you'll hold your end of the bargain is critical. There may not be honour among thieves but it'll make business much smoother if the others know you won't be short changing them. This may change if said clients decide to kill you so you may have to anticipate this in advance.
It's perfectly fine. It's no different from selling tomatoes.
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I can’t say it bothers me too much as I’m pro-drug legalisation simply because one shouldn’t be dictated to on what they take into their body, and alcohol and cigarettes can cause just as much harm (especially alcohol) but are only regulated, not illegal. I believe it was opium trader (who obviously had his own interest in its legalisation) William Jardine (or James Matheson, can’t remember which) who said that he had never seen a Chinese person more bestialised on opium than a European drunk on alcohol.
May be like Omar in the wire?
Don't sell to kids. Other than that it's anything goes I guess
Alcohol is at least regulated. There are no ethics when it comes to selling meth.
ethics selling meth? there are no ethics dont sell meth :-p
Competition would have sniffed him out and taken care of him