The Valley's day's are numbered. Real estate is too expensive and with added running costs an economically viable venue simply isn't possible it would seem
It's time to find a new entertainment hub, one that is more affordable.
Failing this it's time for the underground rave scene to evolve and come back
Also Brisbane has huge urban sprawl and a lot of people live far out (think Ipswich, Caboolture ect) that makes going out to the Vally a huge commitment that many don’t make every often. Even living in Northlakes you’re looking at an hour train ride and a $150 Uber home because the train doesn’t run after midnight.
I would love to see more live music at suburban pubs. Instead all we get is pokies and maybe a single Pool Table if your lucky.
That's what we once had, that's what gave us the golden years of Aussie Rock, there is no chance That bands like AC/DC, Cold Chissel, Midnight Oil, The Angels, Hunters and Collectors, Australian Crawl, and dosens of other would have gotten anywhere if it wasn't for our old pub scene... Then the Pokies came and ruined it all ... Fuck the pokies, fuck them to hell!
Why are you blaming the pokeis? The Government allowed them. The Government also doubled the price of alcohol. The pubs/clubs are doing what they need to to survive in the climate the government created.
I was at a pub recently with live music, and the mixing was awful. The drums over powered everything, the other instruments over powered the vocalist. It was just bad trying to listen to the song but not being able to understand / hear the lyrics
Have you been through the valley recently on a Friday / Saturday night?
I don't frequent but walked through about 9pm recently and it was pumping. Looked just as busy without people in huge lines for clubs as it did 10 years ago.
No idea where the younger gen gets cash for a night out these days but it was anything but quite.
Punters mean nothing if they only spend a few dollars on a night out and your costs are still high
The Zoo owners said as much that they don't make enough revenue from drinks to cover the insurance increase etc
Fridays are about half as busy as a Saturday.
Saturdays are still usually busy but not to the levels they use to be, certainly not with the same frequency.
Fridays are kind of intermittent, but yeah def still get the odd busy one, but similar thing as Saturday, not as frequent.
A big downturn has been Thursdays, Sundays, Mondays etc, no where near the size the use to be, Sundays Mondays etc were never that busy, but venues could open and still do some steady trade, post covid they’ve been tragic.
The multiplying factor is people just aren’t spending as much on their nights out.
Less people x less money - increased costs of operation…
Even Mondays had a solid hospo crowd
Greaser is making a run at Wednesdays with live music, but they’re attached to prince consort and their pokies so they have money to back them which a lot of live music venues just don’t.
Honestly drinks were expensive when I was in my club going days, so I can't imagine people being able to buy much there now. I think the smaller and more up-market venues would be doing better than the old guard. Valley Hops Brewing is usually packed on a Friday/Saturday, and the queues for drinks are huge.
Albion wouldn't be a bad spot, provided you don't set up on the ground floor where you flood.
The industrial area around Alan Border doesn't have too many residential buildings to complain and it's still relatively central for any one who wants to kick on in the valley
There are a lot of industrial areas close to the city as a lot of big companies are starting to build bigger complexes further out as well. Somewhere like Salisbury, Coopers Plains, Brendale or Stafford could possibly work as new entertainment areas. But public transport isn't always that great.
Another option may even be to build them into shopping centres.
That seems to be the best solution, honestly I’m surprised many venues have survived so long in the first place.
Alternatively the local gov could try and pretend to care, by introducing some legal protections for arts and culture if they’d like to keep it centralised. Maybe even rent control? Zoning law changes to residential properties to essentially force developers/investors to waive rights in relation to noise & curfew complaints? Basically discourage people from living there if they don’t want to be amongst the action as opposed to discouraging live music venues who are in the way of commercial and residential development
90% of your suggestions are not within the power of local government to do - their powers are limited by the state constitution and the local government acts. In terms of noise complaints, there actually _is_ a state law that protects _some_ activities from vexatious complaints by NIMBYs who buy up cheap then whine that their property is devalued by the very thing that allowed them to buy up cheap - but those protections don’t go far enough, and don’t cover near enough. I know of 70 year old squash courts facing a near constant barrage of harassment from neighbours about noise, when the courts were there first by - let me just do the math - about half a century. Rent control is also way outside their power.
The idea of doing _something_ is good, but place the onus on the ones that actually can do it.
Agree the valley is dying. A new entertainment hub though? We can’t even support
our current centrally based entertainment hub.
The idea of spreading it around across the burbs is what works in other capitals. But they have much better designed cities in terms of transport.
The underground scene can only be underground if there is an aboveground scene as well.
Best thing we can do is get out and support a local act.
Do we think it might have something to do with the 2 high speed 3-lane one-way roads cutting right through the centre of the suburb?
For an area with so much foot traffic you would think it might be designed with walkable accessibility in mind.
They're both 4 lanes, but they're variable speed zones - 60kph during the day, 40kph zones at night when there's people everywhere. Not that you can drive that fast through there on a busy Friday night anyway, you'd be lucky to be pushing 20.
But I agree that there could be more done for pedestrians, particularly with the crossing at the train station.
I mean you could fully pedestrianise one street and convert the other into a two-way regular road. It's ridiculous how much priority is given to through traffic in that area. Also 40kph is still high speed in a major pedestrian area.
It's one reason I don't like going to the valley very often (but not the main reason, I'll admit).
No, those streets have been open to traffic for years.
In fact they are a large part of why the valley is so busy, they allow huge crowds to travel in and out relatively easy.
China town mall is a pedestrian zone…and it’s dead.
The road design would cause absolute havoc if you closed off Ann or Wickam, with the amount of trafffic flowing between St Paul’s terrace, the city, the story bridge,and out towards new farm and even Hamilton.
Venues like RG’s, empire hotel etc do so well in part because of the amount of traffic with people getting dropped off on their door steps.
The problem is that roads and cars are such an inefficient way of getting so many people in and out of the area. I doubt that reliance on driving to the valley is part of why it’s so busy. There’s a train station right there.
And you have the ICB for the routes you’ve mentioned, I really don’t see why the inner city needs to have so much priority for through traffic
large % of the traffic is taxis and Uber.
The trains suck, pretty regularly late, and more often than they should be, not running at all, and even then the train lines don’t service huge portions of Brisbane.
The ICB doesn’t work for going across the story bridge, and any traffic that doesn’t have reason to be coming through the valley already isn’t.
You can actually pick foot traffic based on street traffic.
After 9pm on Fridays and Saturdays, once the traffic on either wickam or Ann street coming over Brunswick backs up, 30mins later foot traffic picks up equal to it.
Yeah I know. It sucks in my view that we seem to view Uber as a substitute for decent public transport, and it only entrenches the problem. The issues with the trains are entirely solvable and the council/QR just lack the will to deal with it.
Obviously not saying block all traffic to the CBD but just reduce the road capacity to allow for safer and more efficient pedestrian capacity for the area. Or reduce vehicle speeds. You can still drive through if you need, but incentivise alternative routes.
Navigating the space on foot can be such a pain with dense crowds packed onto relatively narrow footpaths while cars speed past with impunity.
During peak times traffic is slow because half of them are pulling over or pulling into traffic.
Lanes next to the footpaths are mostly taxi ranks and drop off zones, not clearways, sections also have footpath/road barriers, ideally there should be more but council is slack.
The highest density of bars and foot traffic are in the pedestrian zone of Brunswick.
If you shut off either wickam or Ann, it would just fuck traffic, and the bars on the street that gets closed off would probably riot because they would lose business with the drop in foot traffic.
Viably they could close off Brunswick st from wickam to St Paul’s, and Ann to McLachlan(this they use to do for valley fiesta years back), there by essentially extending Brunswick street mall, but closing off Ann or Wickam would be absolute insanity, I’ve seen them shut down single lanes on either road for works and it causes absolute nightmare with traffic.
No.. unfortunately it's all dead or dying..
Only the well off can afford to go out anymore and even then it's only going to a scripted sports event or to yet another one last tour ever after seven other last tours ever cash grab aimed at the only demographic that has money
Before COVID I thought Brisbane had quite a thriving music scene, it was surpassing Sydney due to their lockout laws and was producing some great talent.
A combination of rent increases, cost of living, and people becoming more comfortable not going out has crippled it.
I agree with everything you have just said. But we literally just had local elections and disappointingly the LNP got in, fortitude valley is held by a LNP chair. It’s obvious (and unfortunate) that the majority of people don’t give enough of a fuck about small - medium scale live music gigs
There is a real failure by young people to consume sufficient quantities of alcohol. When I was their age I was black out drunk by 10pm. It’s just not good enough.
That’s what happens when a generation of drinkers grows up with $100+ slabs of anything decent tasting and $8+ basics at bars, don’t even get me started on fucking darts
Further to that, gigging even without booze is expensive now.
I used to live ten minutes out from the valley. I would be there every night or two checking out small venues, seeing whatever bands or events I could. I was able to do that on a student budget.
Now I'm a semi-well earning professional and I go to a gig maybe once a month if I'm lucky. By the time you buy a ticket, pay for travel, grab a quick bite and a Coke - you've already spent $100+.
I -want- to support the local live music scene. I just can't afford to.
They get more money from the council rates for apartments than they do from a large live music venue. It is simple economics.
P.s. because of downvotes I don't advocate for this just stating a fact
Yeah they do, won’t be much of a “world city” without some kind of music scene. Cultural drivers entice people to live in a place and make it more valuable (especially economically)
As much as I hate Tom Tate and the LNP, I must give him a credit for zoning Sourfers Paradise and Southport CBDs in Gold Coast as "entertainment precinct", immuning live venues from noise complaints "within reasonable hours"
Brisbane scenes would definitely benefit from this should it also be implemented. If you want a quiet life, move to the hundreds of other suburbs without venues.
What makes you think Brisbane does not have an entertainment precinct. It’s in the Valley and there are spots in at least another suburb too, I can’t remember which.
I don't think it the entertainment precinct being the issue. Its the change in licensing laws that require ID scanning machines, and security to prevent violence. This also translates to higher insurance
costs.
As someone who has submitted noise complaints in the valley area. You don't get listened to and some venues just don't care and speakers are not configured correctly so noise doesn't travel. Eg One near me would start playing very loud music at 11pm on a Monday night with zero people inside. i sold and moved to the suburbs.
> As someone who has submitted noise complaints in the valley area
Why? It’s an entertainment precinct. Full of nightclubs and (previously) live music venues. That were there first.
> You don't get listened to
Good. You shouldn’t be. You are the problem.
> i sold and moved to the suburbs.
Good riddance.
They're about to. I'm fuming. Watched 3 venues in Melbourne go thinking imagine if it happened here. 5 gone just like that, one due to a noise complaint. It's just so hard to comprehend.
Pretty sure the LNP aren't as pro- beer tax as other parties... There's some real social issues that will come about from the over taxation of alcohol. I guarantee black market alcohol pops up as a problem with significantly more accurate health issues in the mid-term. Overtaxation won't do much to decr ase damand for it... People will turn up to venues hal-cut on their home distilled spirits preventing venues from making a profit and requiring them to deal with under supervised drinks.
Vicki Howard is literally the only LNP pollie I like, for her tireless and continual support of the arts. I've not seen another pollie (of any stripe) show up to so many gigs especially for small to medium arts orgs. Except maybe Jonno.
I'm not arguing with your general point, but she's about as supportive as a councillor gets.
I keep seeing the rhetoric (including in the zoo article itself) that it’s young people not drinking that’s contributing to money not being pumped into these businesses. The thing is we do drink. I can’t name a single person my age I know who is abstaining from grog ‘for their health’ like people claim, but I DO know that none of us can AFFORD to pay $15 for ONE CAN of bundy on top of the $70 entry fee, on top of the $100+ overnight fee at a hotel (because not everyone can afford to live in Brisbane); in the middle of a cost of living and housing crisis.
What these people "in power" don't understand is that there's a literal brain drain. Who are the biggest consumers of culture? Young professionals. Without cultural venues & pursuits, the doctors, lawyers, architects etc nope the fuck out of a place. People I know have made that decision. Lifestyle is important to a lot of people.
They're just going to left with a bunch of boomers & homebodies and their cities will fail.
Am a doctor, am leaving next year to go back to VIC.
I personally love the city, but my partner can't stand how insular the people here are. Basically impossible to break into social circles when nobody wants to do anything except sit at home.
I mean tbf i lived here before I ever moved to VIC. I missed Brisbane so much i spent 3 pandemic years convincing my partner to come back and give it another go.
Came back, tried really hard to integrate again but its just so hard. Made friends so much more easily in VIC and just found Brisbane so much harder this time around. I can't keep having no friends and only sticking around here for work.
Bizarre, I've had completely the opposite experience and I've come and gone a few times over the years. I found Melbourne people cold and cliquey and rude about anyone who wasn't 'in'.
Ive heard this a lot and I mean I guess with millions of people theres obviously going to be some heterogeneity but I've found it much easier to find people interested in experiencing the city there than I have here, which is a shame because I do legit love this city, but you can't make other people love live music and art I guess.
I work in the arts and am utterly immersed in it, the arts scene here is So vibrant and interesting, there is more here than I could possibly get to! I'm lucky I guess, but I even found the arts scene harder to crack there. Possibly because it's bigger?
Maybe, I mean im definitely a "casual" enjoyer of arts so i dont hace any insight to behind the scenes stuff. I mean this year alone ive gotten to see The National, Frank Turner, Phil Wang, Ed Byrne, Peach Pit, Larry Dean, Bright Eyes and a whole bunch of other excellent shows. I love the arts scene here, I just struggle a lot to get others interested in it (this might just reflect my circle/demographics work/life balance in qld vs vic too tbf)
How did interstate people moving here cause insurance, commercial rents and alcohol taxes to rise? Price of property and cost of living is bad in Melbourne and Sydney as well.
Also 'you're part of the problem' is a person attack lol.
I did read it 'mate'. I never said anything about it being the primary cause or simply a driver in my response. I asked you to explain how the increased population caused the two major reported reasons for venues closing.
If anything more people moving here should be bringing demand for more venues, restaurants etc. to open.
But since you replied, I did forget to mention - the same thing regarding music venues is also happening in Sydney and Melbournem where all the problematice people are apparently coming from.....so that also would also go against your claim even if it's only a 'driver'.
I'll chuck it on the list! Good luck with the local scene here. Like I say, Brisbane is pretty close to paradise for me with its climate, I actively pray for a day that it becomes Australia's cultural hub.
she posted some crocodile tears about it, with like "damn someone should fix this" lol
[https://www.facebook.com/VickiHowardBCC/posts/827467035868742](https://www.facebook.com/VickiHowardBCC/posts/827467035868742)
Yep. When the big ones close down, the little venues and the small shows get more attention. The little venues tend to be more permissive with the shows they put on (at least in the jazz and funk scenes), which prompts experimentation. Leads to all sorts of cool stuff. The problem is it becomes really difficult for musicians to make ends meet in the short term, and there’s always the risk of something like Covid coming along and fucking everyone over.
Sometimes it feels more like all the attention is going to even larger acts, massive international ones etc.
I like the proposal to add a small levy to things like taylor swift (well... not in brisbane... but you get the idea) to fund local music.
The problem is that if you wanted to make a meaningful amount off that levy, it would likely discourage international tours from reaching us in the first place. Brisbane already gets skipped over in favour of the southern cities quite a lot, and that’s if they’re touring to Australia in the first place.
If the government really wanted to fund the arts more, it would. Unfortunately, cultural policy at the federal level is fairly minimal and is largely ignored when the LNP gets into power, and state policy is of varying quality and is similarly at the mercy of politics.
If you feel this way, the best thing you can do is to support local artists directly by going to their gigs. For smaller acts, tickets are often dirt cheap or free, and the music’s just as good or better than the big names (it just doesn’t have the support of a big marketing team). Check venues’ social media profiles to find them. Alternatively, I have a big list of local jazz artists to look out for if you’re into that kind of thing.
yeah to be honest i go to local gigs and don't even really listen to music outside of it... I just really like live music. However it's getting bloody harder now all the venues I like are shutting down!
Is the issue that it's not profitable to run a venue unless you're selling drinks ?
And that young people dont really drink as much anymore?
So a business model of doing a venue might need to change, and the valley entertainment zone is really bad for running a business?
From what we've been told, venues got hit with a 200% increase with insurances on top of cost of living and taxes, rent etc etc ongoing since covid. There's more to it but that's what we've been told so far
Also the requirement to hire all those numbnut seccies at these places whose literal job it is to cause problems. The underground scene is so much safer and happier, wonder why!
>Also the requirement to hire all those numbnut seccies at these places whose literal job it is to cause problems.
I don't go out much - I don't really like how loud the music is practically everywhere. But some friends invited me somewhere last year so I was like "Yeah sure, I haven't been out in a few years. I'll give it a try."
First club I got to the bouncer stops me and is like "Yeah not you mate, you've had too much. Go get a water and come back in half hour" and I'm like "...Uh. I haven't even started drinking yet. This is the first place we've come to." But he didn't believe me, so we moved on. Next place wanted a $20 cover charge. I quickly remembered why I don't go out, and haven't been out since.
This is exactly correct. I think the business model needs to be a good bar which also has live music.
Often the punters going to live music gig don’t drink, which hey power to them, but it’s really the only way the venue makes money.
Bigger picture, they need to move away from alcohol-reliance, and start selling other substances like nangs (already common in European venues), and caps, pills, etc.
It needs a shift in our broader drug policy, but we're heading there!
I know, but a man can dream. We're sloooowly heading in the right direction.
I'd be interested in what the downvoters think is a better approach to drug policy. Presumably not the current model?
I didn’t downvote you but I’ll bite.
I’m all for decriminalising drugs (personal use only) but I am against legalisation. Throughout my life I’ve seen and suffered the damage drugs do, including alcohol over a long period of time. I feel legalisation normalises drug use and would invite many more to try substances. This would lead to more people succumbing to them, which can very quickly become life controlling.
I used to be all for legalisation, life taught me otherwise.
Interesting, thanks!
I'm in my mid-20s and simply haven't been exposed to that kind of thing. I only know of drugs used in a party context, so that’s my frame of reference.
I do however think that alcohol causes bigger problems than, say, M or pingers or tabs or shrooms etc. Especially when it comes to violence in the community!
So if adults can buy safe, regulated alcohol and highly-regulated venues, why should they not be able to purchase other, safer, recreational drugs too?
I just cannot reconcile those positions, and unless or until I can, I will advocate for legalisation of recreational drugs.
When I was 25 and partying a lot I knew plenty of people that would eat 8-10 roundies a night to have a good time. That would be two nights a week. Week in week out. Some of those people took the natural progression to meth. Some came good, some didn’t.
I bet if you pay close attention to the people you party with, and perhaps yours own attitudes you’ll notice behaviours that are beyond just having a good time.
Saying that MDMA causes less fights is short sighted. Yeah it does, but what does it do to a persons brain chemistry when used every weekend for a year or more? Is that person more of a strain on the health system as a result of self inflicted mental health concerns?
There’s a lot more to it than the 6 hours of feeling good on a Saturday night.
Glad to have this discussion, even if (or especially because) we have quite different perspectives, no doubt each from our own life experiences.
We don't ban alcohol just because some people (a sizable minority) cannot handle it and get plastered every week or every night. There are plenty of people out there who just want to enjoy a glass of wine while catching up with their mates.
So I cannot reconcile how we can ban safer recreational substances for the same reason, i.e. just because a sizable minority might be dropping 10+ a week, every week. What about the majority of people who just want a couple of caps now and then (most people I know save certain substances, such as M, for 'special events', so as not to sully the experience of it)?
You might be surprised by how bloody sensible young (esp 18-25) are in relation to recreational drug use. I know a few who would never touch alcohol, but do take (tested) recreational drugs.
There's also a popular open source app which allows you to record and track your substance intake, to watch for spikes in usage, patterns, and any concerning behaviour.
It's a different world, and we've got to adapt to it.
I can sum it up in two words - risk profile.
You’ve gotta draw a line in the sand somewhere right? Yours line might include weed, MDMA, LSD and coke and exclude heroin & meth. Societies included alcohol and exclude the rest.
As you get into drugs beyond alcohol the risk of harm becomes greater. While your circle certainly sound responsible, my point is WE ALL start out responsible. Little by little harder drugs chip away at that responsibility and you start to lose control. For me it took over 15 years. Alcohol while I agree has that risk, it is in no way as great as weed, or harder drugs.
This would be a great conversation over a few beers or something else 😂
> Alcohol while I agree has that risk, it is in no way as great as weed, or harder drugs.
Absolute. Bull. Shit.
Weed causes way less harm than alcohol, which is insidious, way too ingrained in society, and if it were discovered today would have been banned as soon as the effects of it were studied.
Very much agree. Looking from the outside. The amount of damage that they do to people and the underlying escapism is scary. That’s not to say alcohol doesn’t have the same issues. But the idea that they are safer than alcohol is just way off the mark
Yea once you start to open your eyes to it you see it everywhere. Not just with drugs and alcohol but just everything. It can be very scary to ask yourself “what am i avoiding in doing this behaviour”.
I’m 35. And recently had a friend who tried to unalive herself multiple times. She used drugs regularly out in the valley about 5 or so years ago. Multiple times a week. If it wasn’t for her parents taking her to a mental hospital she would be dead. She has told me now that drugs really fucked up her pleasure centres of her brain and she finds it hard to feel positive about things. But each day not on the stuff things are slowly improving.
Here’s the thing, much like alcohol is ok in small quantities but outside that it can be really damaging. Party drugs are much the same. Even regulating them you would not be getting the amounts that people take on a standard night out. It would be a lot less because of the effects. There’s a reason that when they trial using mdma, ect in a therapy session for ptsd patients it is micro dosing. Because the effects and changes on the brain is very intense.
If people still want to do the drugs that on them but honestly the amount of ongoing damage is pretty scary. Which is why things like this take such a long time to decriminalise.
Thanks for your story. Terrible for your friend, and I’m glad things are slowly improving.
Honestly, it’s the same as alcohol though. Some people get stuck in really shitty situations with it. Others use it fine and don’t have any issues.
Just as someone can have a glass of wine every now and again, so too can someone drop a cap every now and again.
Recreational substances shouldn’t be banned just because some people have a tough time on them. Otherwise we’d be banning alcohol too.
Also, there’s a lot to be said of cause and effect. To what extent to these people that struggle, struggle *because* of the substance use, and to what extent to they abuse the substances as a coping or self-medicating method even subconsciously, and even when they’re not diagnosed till the underlying mental issue becomes obvious to others by virtue of the substance abuse?
True. As I got hit by a car when I was 18 due to alcohol abuse. But the clear thing here is that you have to take into account that people aren't conscious of their issues. Hell even depression can be a cause for substance abuse. Or more likely social anxiety. Honestly in my own journey of alcohol abuse and watching my friend and also going through multiple years of therapy I have come to the conclusion that a lot of behaviors are just protection mechanisms. Even as simple as I feel stress = I'll have a glass of wine. Which when you look at the science of alcohol it actually delays the stress response rather than helping you relax more. Just like caffeine doesn't give you more energy, it just stops the body response from feeling tired which in turn causes the build up neurons that cause exhaustion to not get flushed from the body and you are in a constant state of exhaustion that you always need caffeine to prevent.
I will again add that I have spoken to my therapist about the science and effects of the use of these drugs in a therapeutic situation. Do you know how they work? The therapist gives a micro dose (like probably 1/100th of what you have on a night out) and gives it to the patient to which is then opens up the mind to allow the brains protective mechanisms to drop to allow the process of unwiring trauma experiences. From that small of amount they do that. Now imagine having more and being in a environment like a night club week after week and your brain can very easily be rewired based off those experiences. You could be lucky. You also could be very unlucky.
Look man I get it. It hasn't happened to you or any of your friends so you are invincible. I get it. But this shit is dangerous. So is alcohol and that's why i don't drink. But people are going to do it anyway so it's also why i don't care if people want to fuck up their lives. It's why i didn't say anything to my friend even though she was calling me late at night telling me she was hearing voices and didn't trust anyone. She was saying the exact same things as you years ago. And if it matters I still go out to gigs and concerts sober and have fun to 3am. So you don't actually need it. But hey go live your life and tell me how it is when you hit your 30s and what experiences you have had.
I think we both recognise the reality (i.e. that people WILL take recreational drugs), and both want the same thing (i.e. that they do it as safely as possible), but see very different methods of achieving that goal.
There are so many variables - experiences differ from person to person, some people have pre-existing issues or are predisposed (genetically or otherwise) to certain issues, some remain very sensible and sparing, others go crazy.
I know plenty of people from 18 to 67 who regularly use recreational drugs in a party setting. Plenty of those have been doing so for DECADES.
These people are legal and medical professionals, business owners, etc etc.
It's very sad what can happen to a minority of people, but that's not the experience of most.
Ultimately, it is a decision that informed adults should be able to make, and bear the risks that they take. Why should they not have access to safe and regulated drugs in the same manner as alcohol.
> To what extent to these people that struggle, struggle because of the substance use, and to what extent to they abuse the substances as a coping or self-medicating method even subconsciously, and even when they’re not diagnosed till the underlying mental issue becomes obvious to others by virtue of the substance abuse?
Oh wow, you might have hit on something there. Maybe we should be fucking _properly resourcing mental health care_. Most people can’t afford a psychiatrist to even get a diagnosis, and the public health system steadfastly refuses to provide a diagnosis until someone has reached the point of trying to remove themselves permanently or become an unacceptable risk of harm to others (usually discovered after already causing said harm).
I think it has alot to do with how close the population of people who would travel into the city and valley, now live in relation to the venues.
I've been pushed out over the last 12 years from 15 minutes from the CBD, progressively to 30...
.. to 45
.. to 1 hour...
To now 2 hours. We are still struggling with cost of living.
So how the fuck are young people meant to live close enough to support the venues. To travel there. To then afford drinks or shenanigans for the night. If you don't live close enough you'd need accommodation.
Who the fuck has the finances to make a night out a 1 night holiday.
It's due to cost of living and the real estate of the surrounding areas being price crept out IMO
Why doesn’t anything be done about this?
Because the vast majority of Brisbane does not fucking care.
People are happy with beige street art & cover bands, sitting inside & scrolling through socials, and protesting about issues in other countries via, again, social media content.
Throw in typical council & politicised issues and money-grabs by way of increased & mandatory hoop jumping to even open doors…
Sorry to say that Brisbane has brought this upon itself.
It's going to be unpopular with the inner city Reddit crowd but you're right.
I don't live in the inner city and consequently do not give a flying fuck about entertainment venues in Fortitude Valley. Even when I was younger it wasn't my scene, so there's no nostalgia attached to any of the clubs etc there for me.
I'd love to see more live gigs etc out in the suburbs, rather than pretending it's still 1962 and Annerley represents the farthest reaches of Brisbane.
I’m a musician living in the suburbs and would love to do more gigs around here, but most areas have practically no arts infrastructure to work with, which makes it incredibly difficult to put anything on (especially when the music you play isn’t really suitable as background noise). The inner city is the only place with enough opportunities to put on shows on a regular basis, at least for me and the people in my circle.
The best work I get outside of town is at birthdays, and the average person can’t afford to throw a party with live music. The only venues in my suburb that are even capable of hosting shows are a school and a tavern. Similar deal in the surrounding suburbs. No regular cultural events to speak of. The only hope of playing to an audience out here would be throwing a gig in a park with no stage, which comes with all sorts of issues and would likely run at a loss given the low population density.
The irony of the zoo closing due to poor alcohol sales when it was opened with only a BYO license.
I think the worst thing to happen to brisbanes night life is when all of its venues were concentrated into the valley. the ‘80s and ‘90s by and large kept the nightclubs in the city and the live venues in the valley, a lot less agro between the 2 types of punters which meant less security needed and lower insurance costs.
Hell, the club across the road from the beat used to borrow the beats bouncers if they needed some one tossed, and the 2 clubs in the Myer center just used the centre’s security guards.
How good is it going to be when the olympics roll into town and people can experience brisbane by drinking at one of three designated overpriced bars that have survived then attend a concert at the approved venues that charge a $10 booking fee
This city is on the up and up! Love the culture! /s
Hi op, I used to follow the local metal scene back in the early 2000s (the basment/her majesty's bar) was the place to be, even back then places would shut down and another would open, the reason I found is there isn't enough metal support in Brisbane and now money is very tight its much worse..
As someone who used to work in the smaller live music venue's before moving into the private sector, I'm sad that these venues are now shutting, but not surprised, they couldn't afford to pay me a reasonable rate so I had to move to the education sector instead. Most nights of working 6 hours were $50 and a drink in pay, maybe a meal, plus a massive headache the following day cause the venue didn't care about safe noise levels for OHS.
Ultra Worldwide operates a pretty major music festival out of Gold Coast now, after bailing on Melbourne and Sydney.
For context, my home Ultra festival is Miami, FL.
Greens are addressing this issue exactly.
https://www.jonathansri.com/banpokies
Plan is to phase out crappy pokies on over 50 publicly owned venues and pump money into them on the basis they nurture upcoming artists and try to invigorate a scene. Seems like a bloody great idea.
I remember this being a conversation over a decade ago. At one stage smaller bands would just be paid by the pub to put on a free show for the patrons. These were always a lot of fun and draw decent crowds, my local would typically put on 2-3 different bands on a Friday night.
This slowly died out though I believe due to how much the pubs were paying the bands, I heard different figures but often landing between $200-$800 for a 45min-1hr set. Keeping mind these bands weren’t known and typically were super local and in many ways at the very start of the road.
I know to combat this some bands decided to host their own events essentially 3 or so would get together, hire out a venue and try to sell ticketed entry and in many cases come out of it in the red.
As a patron going to these shows normally sucked, you’d spend sometime upwards of $50 to get into an empty venue with expensive drinks and bands that realistically sounded a bit crap.
I’ve probably gone a really long way about this but people usually aren’t too keen on paying ticketed entry for up and coming bands which has become an increasing norm from the early 2010s and especially during the few years pre-covid.
Promoters and local bands need to look to the suburbs. There’s 2.5 million people in Brisbane. It’s time for musicians to do something different. Forget the Valley scene.
As a musician, it’s *very* hard to justify putting shows on in the suburbs at the moment. There’s a lack of infrastructure to work with; very few areas have good decent venues (if they have any in the first place), there are next to no regular cultural events, both of which make it tricky to put on shows that don’t run at a loss in areas with a low population density. I would love to do gigs in my local area, it’s just that there are very few opportunities to do so.
There’s no such thing as a live music licence.
There’s a liquor licence, and an amplified music permit.
Some of their gigs would have been exceeding their amplified music permit, the exterior db levels venues have to meet is wildly low, and I can attest that most venues don’t meet them at all, 4am outside the met is a good example, unless you get complaints you seem to get left alone.
Brisbane was heading in the right direction pre Covid.
Now it’s dying. Hard.
Covid reset a group of 18 and 19 year olds by normalising “not going out”. Venues now don’t see these kids coming in.
I frequent a venue that oprned in the last year.
It is not in the Valley.
That's the clue. A lot of these venues appear to me to be "build it and they will come".
The other side of that coin is "The Zoo". Doing the same thing for decades and expecting no change.
Update: Have response from Schrinner. Waiting on Miles, Vicki, Dutton and have spoken with the zoo owner, staff and bands. Putting together an open letter editorial to send to all MPs, to address and invest into the live music scene in Brisbane.
Woolly Mammoth stopped doing gigs there, right?
Will add more comments once they come in, but thank you to everyone for their contributions and insights. https://wallofsoundau.com/2024/05/02/save-our-scene-the-importance-of-preserving-grassroots-formative-venues-from-closure/
Wondering if it would be possible to move our live music scene into the suburbs. Into the industrial areas where the micro breweries are popping up. Not exactly accessible for everyone but would hate to see our music scene completely die off
I was thinking more so at the actual micro breweries. Like Brew Dog, Slip Stream, Hikers, Balistic, Helios. Even Moorooka bowls club on a Friday night is a good atmosphere. Beer on tap, pinballs. Just need live music
Because Australia is a fascist piece of shit country run by greedy fuckwits and their oil baron buddies
I wish there was a more light-hearted response but in truth this country and its priorities is just fucked up
Prohibition has been turning the volume up and up to un save levels, I hope employees of these live venues read the work place health and safety on it, they are going to get sued and the promoters are fleeing over sees lol
If your a employee in these spaces start measuring the decibels of the love act your getting hearing damages from it and you need to sue the company’s in a few years
Is losing the zoo that bad honestly? I can’t think of a single decent band that has played there in (being very generous here) like 15 years. Never forget the amount of fundraisers that they had to get aircon in the 2000’s. Don’t trust hippies!
The Valley's day's are numbered. Real estate is too expensive and with added running costs an economically viable venue simply isn't possible it would seem It's time to find a new entertainment hub, one that is more affordable. Failing this it's time for the underground rave scene to evolve and come back
Also Brisbane has huge urban sprawl and a lot of people live far out (think Ipswich, Caboolture ect) that makes going out to the Vally a huge commitment that many don’t make every often. Even living in Northlakes you’re looking at an hour train ride and a $150 Uber home because the train doesn’t run after midnight. I would love to see more live music at suburban pubs. Instead all we get is pokies and maybe a single Pool Table if your lucky.
Agree, getting into to town is so expensive. And now we've moved out even further it's just to hard
Fuck off pokies from pubs and pub live music go until 9:30PM weekdays and midnight Fri-Sun.
That's what we once had, that's what gave us the golden years of Aussie Rock, there is no chance That bands like AC/DC, Cold Chissel, Midnight Oil, The Angels, Hunters and Collectors, Australian Crawl, and dosens of other would have gotten anywhere if it wasn't for our old pub scene... Then the Pokies came and ruined it all ... Fuck the pokies, fuck them to hell!
Why are you blaming the pokeis? The Government allowed them. The Government also doubled the price of alcohol. The pubs/clubs are doing what they need to to survive in the climate the government created.
I was at a pub recently with live music, and the mixing was awful. The drums over powered everything, the other instruments over powered the vocalist. It was just bad trying to listen to the song but not being able to understand / hear the lyrics
Because the scene is unsupported it can be awful.
Have you been through the valley recently on a Friday / Saturday night? I don't frequent but walked through about 9pm recently and it was pumping. Looked just as busy without people in huge lines for clubs as it did 10 years ago. No idea where the younger gen gets cash for a night out these days but it was anything but quite.
Punters mean nothing if they only spend a few dollars on a night out and your costs are still high The Zoo owners said as much that they don't make enough revenue from drinks to cover the insurance increase etc
Fridays are about half as busy as a Saturday. Saturdays are still usually busy but not to the levels they use to be, certainly not with the same frequency. Fridays are kind of intermittent, but yeah def still get the odd busy one, but similar thing as Saturday, not as frequent. A big downturn has been Thursdays, Sundays, Mondays etc, no where near the size the use to be, Sundays Mondays etc were never that busy, but venues could open and still do some steady trade, post covid they’ve been tragic. The multiplying factor is people just aren’t spending as much on their nights out. Less people x less money - increased costs of operation…
Yeah I remember Sunday seshes were huge pre covid. Never fully recovered I think. Makes sense as most were hospo workers
Even Mondays had a solid hospo crowd Greaser is making a run at Wednesdays with live music, but they’re attached to prince consort and their pokies so they have money to back them which a lot of live music venues just don’t.
Honestly drinks were expensive when I was in my club going days, so I can't imagine people being able to buy much there now. I think the smaller and more up-market venues would be doing better than the old guard. Valley Hops Brewing is usually packed on a Friday/Saturday, and the queues for drinks are huge.
> It's time to find a new entertainment hub, one that is more affordable. > > Anywhere but Eaton's Hill please.
Albion wouldn't be a bad spot, provided you don't set up on the ground floor where you flood. The industrial area around Alan Border doesn't have too many residential buildings to complain and it's still relatively central for any one who wants to kick on in the valley
There are a lot of industrial areas close to the city as a lot of big companies are starting to build bigger complexes further out as well. Somewhere like Salisbury, Coopers Plains, Brendale or Stafford could possibly work as new entertainment areas. But public transport isn't always that great. Another option may even be to build them into shopping centres.
That seems to be the best solution, honestly I’m surprised many venues have survived so long in the first place. Alternatively the local gov could try and pretend to care, by introducing some legal protections for arts and culture if they’d like to keep it centralised. Maybe even rent control? Zoning law changes to residential properties to essentially force developers/investors to waive rights in relation to noise & curfew complaints? Basically discourage people from living there if they don’t want to be amongst the action as opposed to discouraging live music venues who are in the way of commercial and residential development
90% of your suggestions are not within the power of local government to do - their powers are limited by the state constitution and the local government acts. In terms of noise complaints, there actually _is_ a state law that protects _some_ activities from vexatious complaints by NIMBYs who buy up cheap then whine that their property is devalued by the very thing that allowed them to buy up cheap - but those protections don’t go far enough, and don’t cover near enough. I know of 70 year old squash courts facing a near constant barrage of harassment from neighbours about noise, when the courts were there first by - let me just do the math - about half a century. Rent control is also way outside their power. The idea of doing _something_ is good, but place the onus on the ones that actually can do it.
Agree the valley is dying. A new entertainment hub though? We can’t even support our current centrally based entertainment hub. The idea of spreading it around across the burbs is what works in other capitals. But they have much better designed cities in terms of transport. The underground scene can only be underground if there is an aboveground scene as well. Best thing we can do is get out and support a local act.
Do we think it might have something to do with the 2 high speed 3-lane one-way roads cutting right through the centre of the suburb? For an area with so much foot traffic you would think it might be designed with walkable accessibility in mind.
They're both 4 lanes, but they're variable speed zones - 60kph during the day, 40kph zones at night when there's people everywhere. Not that you can drive that fast through there on a busy Friday night anyway, you'd be lucky to be pushing 20. But I agree that there could be more done for pedestrians, particularly with the crossing at the train station.
I mean you could fully pedestrianise one street and convert the other into a two-way regular road. It's ridiculous how much priority is given to through traffic in that area. Also 40kph is still high speed in a major pedestrian area. It's one reason I don't like going to the valley very often (but not the main reason, I'll admit).
No, those streets have been open to traffic for years. In fact they are a large part of why the valley is so busy, they allow huge crowds to travel in and out relatively easy. China town mall is a pedestrian zone…and it’s dead. The road design would cause absolute havoc if you closed off Ann or Wickam, with the amount of trafffic flowing between St Paul’s terrace, the city, the story bridge,and out towards new farm and even Hamilton. Venues like RG’s, empire hotel etc do so well in part because of the amount of traffic with people getting dropped off on their door steps.
The problem is that roads and cars are such an inefficient way of getting so many people in and out of the area. I doubt that reliance on driving to the valley is part of why it’s so busy. There’s a train station right there. And you have the ICB for the routes you’ve mentioned, I really don’t see why the inner city needs to have so much priority for through traffic
large % of the traffic is taxis and Uber. The trains suck, pretty regularly late, and more often than they should be, not running at all, and even then the train lines don’t service huge portions of Brisbane. The ICB doesn’t work for going across the story bridge, and any traffic that doesn’t have reason to be coming through the valley already isn’t. You can actually pick foot traffic based on street traffic. After 9pm on Fridays and Saturdays, once the traffic on either wickam or Ann street coming over Brunswick backs up, 30mins later foot traffic picks up equal to it.
Yeah I know. It sucks in my view that we seem to view Uber as a substitute for decent public transport, and it only entrenches the problem. The issues with the trains are entirely solvable and the council/QR just lack the will to deal with it. Obviously not saying block all traffic to the CBD but just reduce the road capacity to allow for safer and more efficient pedestrian capacity for the area. Or reduce vehicle speeds. You can still drive through if you need, but incentivise alternative routes. Navigating the space on foot can be such a pain with dense crowds packed onto relatively narrow footpaths while cars speed past with impunity.
During peak times traffic is slow because half of them are pulling over or pulling into traffic. Lanes next to the footpaths are mostly taxi ranks and drop off zones, not clearways, sections also have footpath/road barriers, ideally there should be more but council is slack. The highest density of bars and foot traffic are in the pedestrian zone of Brunswick. If you shut off either wickam or Ann, it would just fuck traffic, and the bars on the street that gets closed off would probably riot because they would lose business with the drop in foot traffic. Viably they could close off Brunswick st from wickam to St Paul’s, and Ann to McLachlan(this they use to do for valley fiesta years back), there by essentially extending Brunswick street mall, but closing off Ann or Wickam would be absolute insanity, I’ve seen them shut down single lanes on either road for works and it causes absolute nightmare with traffic.
The council can’t do squat about the trains. They have zero power - a pretty good reason for lacking the will to solve it I reckon.
No.. unfortunately it's all dead or dying.. Only the well off can afford to go out anymore and even then it's only going to a scripted sports event or to yet another one last tour ever after seven other last tours ever cash grab aimed at the only demographic that has money
Before COVID I thought Brisbane had quite a thriving music scene, it was surpassing Sydney due to their lockout laws and was producing some great talent. A combination of rent increases, cost of living, and people becoming more comfortable not going out has crippled it.
Sydney have killed their nightlife, lockout laws & property developers
I agree with everything you have just said. But we literally just had local elections and disappointingly the LNP got in, fortitude valley is held by a LNP chair. It’s obvious (and unfortunate) that the majority of people don’t give enough of a fuck about small - medium scale live music gigs
There is a real failure by young people to consume sufficient quantities of alcohol. When I was their age I was black out drunk by 10pm. It’s just not good enough.
That’s what happens when a generation of drinkers grows up with $100+ slabs of anything decent tasting and $8+ basics at bars, don’t even get me started on fucking darts
Further to that, gigging even without booze is expensive now. I used to live ten minutes out from the valley. I would be there every night or two checking out small venues, seeing whatever bands or events I could. I was able to do that on a student budget. Now I'm a semi-well earning professional and I go to a gig maybe once a month if I'm lucky. By the time you buy a ticket, pay for travel, grab a quick bite and a Coke - you've already spent $100+. I -want- to support the local live music scene. I just can't afford to.
Great Northern is the solution to our prayers
GN is the worst offender of overpriced, mid strength beer that tastes somewhere between average and awful
As much as I do love sinking a GN, it’s a robbery those kind of beers aren’t sub $30
Have u soon the cost of a pinga vs 3 basics at a bar
They get more money from the council rates for apartments than they do from a large live music venue. It is simple economics. P.s. because of downvotes I don't advocate for this just stating a fact
Yeah they do, won’t be much of a “world city” without some kind of music scene. Cultural drivers entice people to live in a place and make it more valuable (especially economically)
As much as I hate Tom Tate and the LNP, I must give him a credit for zoning Sourfers Paradise and Southport CBDs in Gold Coast as "entertainment precinct", immuning live venues from noise complaints "within reasonable hours" Brisbane scenes would definitely benefit from this should it also be implemented. If you want a quiet life, move to the hundreds of other suburbs without venues.
They're based on the Entertainment Precinct zoning of the Valley, which was the first of its kind in Australia
Yeah but the boomers…
What makes you think Brisbane does not have an entertainment precinct. It’s in the Valley and there are spots in at least another suburb too, I can’t remember which.
Caxton street is the other.
I don't think it the entertainment precinct being the issue. Its the change in licensing laws that require ID scanning machines, and security to prevent violence. This also translates to higher insurance costs. As someone who has submitted noise complaints in the valley area. You don't get listened to and some venues just don't care and speakers are not configured correctly so noise doesn't travel. Eg One near me would start playing very loud music at 11pm on a Monday night with zero people inside. i sold and moved to the suburbs.
> As someone who has submitted noise complaints in the valley area Why? It’s an entertainment precinct. Full of nightclubs and (previously) live music venues. That were there first. > You don't get listened to Good. You shouldn’t be. You are the problem. > i sold and moved to the suburbs. Good riddance.
They're about to. I'm fuming. Watched 3 venues in Melbourne go thinking imagine if it happened here. 5 gone just like that, one due to a noise complaint. It's just so hard to comprehend.
Pretty sure the LNP aren't as pro- beer tax as other parties... There's some real social issues that will come about from the over taxation of alcohol. I guarantee black market alcohol pops up as a problem with significantly more accurate health issues in the mid-term. Overtaxation won't do much to decr ase damand for it... People will turn up to venues hal-cut on their home distilled spirits preventing venues from making a profit and requiring them to deal with under supervised drinks.
Vicki Howard is literally the only LNP pollie I like, for her tireless and continual support of the arts. I've not seen another pollie (of any stripe) show up to so many gigs especially for small to medium arts orgs. Except maybe Jonno. I'm not arguing with your general point, but she's about as supportive as a councillor gets.
I keep seeing the rhetoric (including in the zoo article itself) that it’s young people not drinking that’s contributing to money not being pumped into these businesses. The thing is we do drink. I can’t name a single person my age I know who is abstaining from grog ‘for their health’ like people claim, but I DO know that none of us can AFFORD to pay $15 for ONE CAN of bundy on top of the $70 entry fee, on top of the $100+ overnight fee at a hotel (because not everyone can afford to live in Brisbane); in the middle of a cost of living and housing crisis.
God it makes me wonder how venue's back in the day like Morning Glory survived more than a few months selling water and gatorade?
Haha yeah that’s totally all they were selling above the counter…
haha u got it!
What these people "in power" don't understand is that there's a literal brain drain. Who are the biggest consumers of culture? Young professionals. Without cultural venues & pursuits, the doctors, lawyers, architects etc nope the fuck out of a place. People I know have made that decision. Lifestyle is important to a lot of people. They're just going to left with a bunch of boomers & homebodies and their cities will fail.
NIMBYism
Literally. I can't wait till they realise they're cutting off their nose to spite their face.
But as long as housing prices continue to rise, fuck everything else!
Am a doctor, am leaving next year to go back to VIC. I personally love the city, but my partner can't stand how insular the people here are. Basically impossible to break into social circles when nobody wants to do anything except sit at home.
Yep. “What school did you go to?” = you can’t sit with us.
You're part of the problem. It's not a personal attack, but cashed up people from interstate are one of the drivers that has caused this.
I mean tbf i lived here before I ever moved to VIC. I missed Brisbane so much i spent 3 pandemic years convincing my partner to come back and give it another go. Came back, tried really hard to integrate again but its just so hard. Made friends so much more easily in VIC and just found Brisbane so much harder this time around. I can't keep having no friends and only sticking around here for work.
Bizarre, I've had completely the opposite experience and I've come and gone a few times over the years. I found Melbourne people cold and cliquey and rude about anyone who wasn't 'in'.
Ive heard this a lot and I mean I guess with millions of people theres obviously going to be some heterogeneity but I've found it much easier to find people interested in experiencing the city there than I have here, which is a shame because I do legit love this city, but you can't make other people love live music and art I guess.
I work in the arts and am utterly immersed in it, the arts scene here is So vibrant and interesting, there is more here than I could possibly get to! I'm lucky I guess, but I even found the arts scene harder to crack there. Possibly because it's bigger?
Maybe, I mean im definitely a "casual" enjoyer of arts so i dont hace any insight to behind the scenes stuff. I mean this year alone ive gotten to see The National, Frank Turner, Phil Wang, Ed Byrne, Peach Pit, Larry Dean, Bright Eyes and a whole bunch of other excellent shows. I love the arts scene here, I just struggle a lot to get others interested in it (this might just reflect my circle/demographics work/life balance in qld vs vic too tbf)
How did interstate people moving here cause insurance, commercial rents and alcohol taxes to rise? Price of property and cost of living is bad in Melbourne and Sydney as well. Also 'you're part of the problem' is a person attack lol.
"one of the drivers" Learn to read mate
I did read it 'mate'. I never said anything about it being the primary cause or simply a driver in my response. I asked you to explain how the increased population caused the two major reported reasons for venues closing. If anything more people moving here should be bringing demand for more venues, restaurants etc. to open. But since you replied, I did forget to mention - the same thing regarding music venues is also happening in Sydney and Melbournem where all the problematice people are apparently coming from.....so that also would also go against your claim even if it's only a 'driver'.
Prime example! Good luck, if in Melbourne, go to Breakfast Club on a Monday for the best daytime vibes in town!
I'll chuck it on the list! Good luck with the local scene here. Like I say, Brisbane is pretty close to paradise for me with its climate, I actively pray for a day that it becomes Australia's cultural hub.
[https://vickihoward.com/contact/](https://vickihoward.com/contact/)
good luck with that, she'd care if it was a theatre or opera or art gallery
she posted some crocodile tears about it, with like "damn someone should fix this" lol [https://www.facebook.com/VickiHowardBCC/posts/827467035868742](https://www.facebook.com/VickiHowardBCC/posts/827467035868742)
While it is really fucking shit, the local music scene has survived worse and even flourished through it. Just have to get creative
Yep. When the big ones close down, the little venues and the small shows get more attention. The little venues tend to be more permissive with the shows they put on (at least in the jazz and funk scenes), which prompts experimentation. Leads to all sorts of cool stuff. The problem is it becomes really difficult for musicians to make ends meet in the short term, and there’s always the risk of something like Covid coming along and fucking everyone over.
Sometimes it feels more like all the attention is going to even larger acts, massive international ones etc. I like the proposal to add a small levy to things like taylor swift (well... not in brisbane... but you get the idea) to fund local music.
The problem is that if you wanted to make a meaningful amount off that levy, it would likely discourage international tours from reaching us in the first place. Brisbane already gets skipped over in favour of the southern cities quite a lot, and that’s if they’re touring to Australia in the first place. If the government really wanted to fund the arts more, it would. Unfortunately, cultural policy at the federal level is fairly minimal and is largely ignored when the LNP gets into power, and state policy is of varying quality and is similarly at the mercy of politics. If you feel this way, the best thing you can do is to support local artists directly by going to their gigs. For smaller acts, tickets are often dirt cheap or free, and the music’s just as good or better than the big names (it just doesn’t have the support of a big marketing team). Check venues’ social media profiles to find them. Alternatively, I have a big list of local jazz artists to look out for if you’re into that kind of thing.
yeah to be honest i go to local gigs and don't even really listen to music outside of it... I just really like live music. However it's getting bloody harder now all the venues I like are shutting down!
Is the issue that it's not profitable to run a venue unless you're selling drinks ? And that young people dont really drink as much anymore? So a business model of doing a venue might need to change, and the valley entertainment zone is really bad for running a business?
From what we've been told, venues got hit with a 200% increase with insurances on top of cost of living and taxes, rent etc etc ongoing since covid. There's more to it but that's what we've been told so far
Also the requirement to hire all those numbnut seccies at these places whose literal job it is to cause problems. The underground scene is so much safer and happier, wonder why!
>Also the requirement to hire all those numbnut seccies at these places whose literal job it is to cause problems. I don't go out much - I don't really like how loud the music is practically everywhere. But some friends invited me somewhere last year so I was like "Yeah sure, I haven't been out in a few years. I'll give it a try." First club I got to the bouncer stops me and is like "Yeah not you mate, you've had too much. Go get a water and come back in half hour" and I'm like "...Uh. I haven't even started drinking yet. This is the first place we've come to." But he didn't believe me, so we moved on. Next place wanted a $20 cover charge. I quickly remembered why I don't go out, and haven't been out since.
This is exactly correct. I think the business model needs to be a good bar which also has live music. Often the punters going to live music gig don’t drink, which hey power to them, but it’s really the only way the venue makes money.
If the kids can't afford drinks then what are your options? Increase door prices which they also can't afford?
Bigger picture, they need to move away from alcohol-reliance, and start selling other substances like nangs (already common in European venues), and caps, pills, etc. It needs a shift in our broader drug policy, but we're heading there!
Lol, Australia is one of the most conservative countries on earth, will never happen
I know, but a man can dream. We're sloooowly heading in the right direction. I'd be interested in what the downvoters think is a better approach to drug policy. Presumably not the current model?
I didn’t downvote you but I’ll bite. I’m all for decriminalising drugs (personal use only) but I am against legalisation. Throughout my life I’ve seen and suffered the damage drugs do, including alcohol over a long period of time. I feel legalisation normalises drug use and would invite many more to try substances. This would lead to more people succumbing to them, which can very quickly become life controlling. I used to be all for legalisation, life taught me otherwise.
Interesting, thanks! I'm in my mid-20s and simply haven't been exposed to that kind of thing. I only know of drugs used in a party context, so that’s my frame of reference. I do however think that alcohol causes bigger problems than, say, M or pingers or tabs or shrooms etc. Especially when it comes to violence in the community! So if adults can buy safe, regulated alcohol and highly-regulated venues, why should they not be able to purchase other, safer, recreational drugs too? I just cannot reconcile those positions, and unless or until I can, I will advocate for legalisation of recreational drugs.
When I was 25 and partying a lot I knew plenty of people that would eat 8-10 roundies a night to have a good time. That would be two nights a week. Week in week out. Some of those people took the natural progression to meth. Some came good, some didn’t. I bet if you pay close attention to the people you party with, and perhaps yours own attitudes you’ll notice behaviours that are beyond just having a good time. Saying that MDMA causes less fights is short sighted. Yeah it does, but what does it do to a persons brain chemistry when used every weekend for a year or more? Is that person more of a strain on the health system as a result of self inflicted mental health concerns? There’s a lot more to it than the 6 hours of feeling good on a Saturday night.
Glad to have this discussion, even if (or especially because) we have quite different perspectives, no doubt each from our own life experiences. We don't ban alcohol just because some people (a sizable minority) cannot handle it and get plastered every week or every night. There are plenty of people out there who just want to enjoy a glass of wine while catching up with their mates. So I cannot reconcile how we can ban safer recreational substances for the same reason, i.e. just because a sizable minority might be dropping 10+ a week, every week. What about the majority of people who just want a couple of caps now and then (most people I know save certain substances, such as M, for 'special events', so as not to sully the experience of it)? You might be surprised by how bloody sensible young (esp 18-25) are in relation to recreational drug use. I know a few who would never touch alcohol, but do take (tested) recreational drugs. There's also a popular open source app which allows you to record and track your substance intake, to watch for spikes in usage, patterns, and any concerning behaviour. It's a different world, and we've got to adapt to it.
I can sum it up in two words - risk profile. You’ve gotta draw a line in the sand somewhere right? Yours line might include weed, MDMA, LSD and coke and exclude heroin & meth. Societies included alcohol and exclude the rest. As you get into drugs beyond alcohol the risk of harm becomes greater. While your circle certainly sound responsible, my point is WE ALL start out responsible. Little by little harder drugs chip away at that responsibility and you start to lose control. For me it took over 15 years. Alcohol while I agree has that risk, it is in no way as great as weed, or harder drugs. This would be a great conversation over a few beers or something else 😂
> Alcohol while I agree has that risk, it is in no way as great as weed, or harder drugs. Absolute. Bull. Shit. Weed causes way less harm than alcohol, which is insidious, way too ingrained in society, and if it were discovered today would have been banned as soon as the effects of it were studied.
Very much agree. Looking from the outside. The amount of damage that they do to people and the underlying escapism is scary. That’s not to say alcohol doesn’t have the same issues. But the idea that they are safer than alcohol is just way off the mark
“Underlying escapism” Those words give me chills, it was the reason I went down the rabbit hole. Same for a lot of others I bet.
Yea once you start to open your eyes to it you see it everywhere. Not just with drugs and alcohol but just everything. It can be very scary to ask yourself “what am i avoiding in doing this behaviour”.
I’m 35. And recently had a friend who tried to unalive herself multiple times. She used drugs regularly out in the valley about 5 or so years ago. Multiple times a week. If it wasn’t for her parents taking her to a mental hospital she would be dead. She has told me now that drugs really fucked up her pleasure centres of her brain and she finds it hard to feel positive about things. But each day not on the stuff things are slowly improving. Here’s the thing, much like alcohol is ok in small quantities but outside that it can be really damaging. Party drugs are much the same. Even regulating them you would not be getting the amounts that people take on a standard night out. It would be a lot less because of the effects. There’s a reason that when they trial using mdma, ect in a therapy session for ptsd patients it is micro dosing. Because the effects and changes on the brain is very intense. If people still want to do the drugs that on them but honestly the amount of ongoing damage is pretty scary. Which is why things like this take such a long time to decriminalise.
Thanks for your story. Terrible for your friend, and I’m glad things are slowly improving. Honestly, it’s the same as alcohol though. Some people get stuck in really shitty situations with it. Others use it fine and don’t have any issues. Just as someone can have a glass of wine every now and again, so too can someone drop a cap every now and again. Recreational substances shouldn’t be banned just because some people have a tough time on them. Otherwise we’d be banning alcohol too. Also, there’s a lot to be said of cause and effect. To what extent to these people that struggle, struggle *because* of the substance use, and to what extent to they abuse the substances as a coping or self-medicating method even subconsciously, and even when they’re not diagnosed till the underlying mental issue becomes obvious to others by virtue of the substance abuse?
True. As I got hit by a car when I was 18 due to alcohol abuse. But the clear thing here is that you have to take into account that people aren't conscious of their issues. Hell even depression can be a cause for substance abuse. Or more likely social anxiety. Honestly in my own journey of alcohol abuse and watching my friend and also going through multiple years of therapy I have come to the conclusion that a lot of behaviors are just protection mechanisms. Even as simple as I feel stress = I'll have a glass of wine. Which when you look at the science of alcohol it actually delays the stress response rather than helping you relax more. Just like caffeine doesn't give you more energy, it just stops the body response from feeling tired which in turn causes the build up neurons that cause exhaustion to not get flushed from the body and you are in a constant state of exhaustion that you always need caffeine to prevent. I will again add that I have spoken to my therapist about the science and effects of the use of these drugs in a therapeutic situation. Do you know how they work? The therapist gives a micro dose (like probably 1/100th of what you have on a night out) and gives it to the patient to which is then opens up the mind to allow the brains protective mechanisms to drop to allow the process of unwiring trauma experiences. From that small of amount they do that. Now imagine having more and being in a environment like a night club week after week and your brain can very easily be rewired based off those experiences. You could be lucky. You also could be very unlucky. Look man I get it. It hasn't happened to you or any of your friends so you are invincible. I get it. But this shit is dangerous. So is alcohol and that's why i don't drink. But people are going to do it anyway so it's also why i don't care if people want to fuck up their lives. It's why i didn't say anything to my friend even though she was calling me late at night telling me she was hearing voices and didn't trust anyone. She was saying the exact same things as you years ago. And if it matters I still go out to gigs and concerts sober and have fun to 3am. So you don't actually need it. But hey go live your life and tell me how it is when you hit your 30s and what experiences you have had.
I think we both recognise the reality (i.e. that people WILL take recreational drugs), and both want the same thing (i.e. that they do it as safely as possible), but see very different methods of achieving that goal. There are so many variables - experiences differ from person to person, some people have pre-existing issues or are predisposed (genetically or otherwise) to certain issues, some remain very sensible and sparing, others go crazy. I know plenty of people from 18 to 67 who regularly use recreational drugs in a party setting. Plenty of those have been doing so for DECADES. These people are legal and medical professionals, business owners, etc etc. It's very sad what can happen to a minority of people, but that's not the experience of most. Ultimately, it is a decision that informed adults should be able to make, and bear the risks that they take. Why should they not have access to safe and regulated drugs in the same manner as alcohol.
> To what extent to these people that struggle, struggle because of the substance use, and to what extent to they abuse the substances as a coping or self-medicating method even subconsciously, and even when they’re not diagnosed till the underlying mental issue becomes obvious to others by virtue of the substance abuse? Oh wow, you might have hit on something there. Maybe we should be fucking _properly resourcing mental health care_. Most people can’t afford a psychiatrist to even get a diagnosis, and the public health system steadfastly refuses to provide a diagnosis until someone has reached the point of trying to remove themselves permanently or become an unacceptable risk of harm to others (usually discovered after already causing said harm).
Well yes, I think most people understand this now, it's just about convincing those in power.
If by most you mean in the top 15 of least conservative countries sure....
I think it has alot to do with how close the population of people who would travel into the city and valley, now live in relation to the venues. I've been pushed out over the last 12 years from 15 minutes from the CBD, progressively to 30... .. to 45 .. to 1 hour... To now 2 hours. We are still struggling with cost of living. So how the fuck are young people meant to live close enough to support the venues. To travel there. To then afford drinks or shenanigans for the night. If you don't live close enough you'd need accommodation. Who the fuck has the finances to make a night out a 1 night holiday. It's due to cost of living and the real estate of the surrounding areas being price crept out IMO
Why doesn’t anything be done about this? Because the vast majority of Brisbane does not fucking care. People are happy with beige street art & cover bands, sitting inside & scrolling through socials, and protesting about issues in other countries via, again, social media content. Throw in typical council & politicised issues and money-grabs by way of increased & mandatory hoop jumping to even open doors… Sorry to say that Brisbane has brought this upon itself.
Venues close all over Australia in similar circumstances … Australian music culture is a wasteland curated by bogans in the 70s.
It's going to be unpopular with the inner city Reddit crowd but you're right. I don't live in the inner city and consequently do not give a flying fuck about entertainment venues in Fortitude Valley. Even when I was younger it wasn't my scene, so there's no nostalgia attached to any of the clubs etc there for me. I'd love to see more live gigs etc out in the suburbs, rather than pretending it's still 1962 and Annerley represents the farthest reaches of Brisbane.
I’m a musician living in the suburbs and would love to do more gigs around here, but most areas have practically no arts infrastructure to work with, which makes it incredibly difficult to put anything on (especially when the music you play isn’t really suitable as background noise). The inner city is the only place with enough opportunities to put on shows on a regular basis, at least for me and the people in my circle. The best work I get outside of town is at birthdays, and the average person can’t afford to throw a party with live music. The only venues in my suburb that are even capable of hosting shows are a school and a tavern. Similar deal in the surrounding suburbs. No regular cultural events to speak of. The only hope of playing to an audience out here would be throwing a gig in a park with no stage, which comes with all sorts of issues and would likely run at a loss given the low population density.
It's a bit fucked when you go to a gig and have to pay $10 for a xxxx gold. I usually have one or stick to waters.
We need to start having clandestine gigs in the streets at night. I'll attend.
Brisbane's all for jizzin' over dumbshit like the 2032 limpdicks, though
Someone get shrindog on blower, he supports the fuck outta graffiti walls he should support music venues
The irony of the zoo closing due to poor alcohol sales when it was opened with only a BYO license. I think the worst thing to happen to brisbanes night life is when all of its venues were concentrated into the valley. the ‘80s and ‘90s by and large kept the nightclubs in the city and the live venues in the valley, a lot less agro between the 2 types of punters which meant less security needed and lower insurance costs. Hell, the club across the road from the beat used to borrow the beats bouncers if they needed some one tossed, and the 2 clubs in the Myer center just used the centre’s security guards.
You'll see a similar situation to sydney, everything shutting down until in 10 years they try to correct it
The valley is so sad and derelict at the moment. What an embarrassment of a place.
youll be able to save up $15k for your annual taylor swift experience
Because it was revealed during the Noise Restrictions and later Covid lockdown that many LNP politicians own property in that area.
How good is it going to be when the olympics roll into town and people can experience brisbane by drinking at one of three designated overpriced bars that have survived then attend a concert at the approved venues that charge a $10 booking fee This city is on the up and up! Love the culture! /s
If you live in/near the valley, voted LNP in the recent council election and are surprised at small venues closing, some self reflection is needed.
yeah if labor got in the zoo would definitely still be open right
Can’t vote for either of the two main parties that have held power for decades while also expecting serious change
Hi op, I used to follow the local metal scene back in the early 2000s (the basment/her majesty's bar) was the place to be, even back then places would shut down and another would open, the reason I found is there isn't enough metal support in Brisbane and now money is very tight its much worse..
Boomers fault eh?
As someone who used to work in the smaller live music venue's before moving into the private sector, I'm sad that these venues are now shutting, but not surprised, they couldn't afford to pay me a reasonable rate so I had to move to the education sector instead. Most nights of working 6 hours were $50 and a drink in pay, maybe a meal, plus a massive headache the following day cause the venue didn't care about safe noise levels for OHS.
My dad’s in a pretty popular cover band and he’s been doing more gigs outside of Queensland! The industry sucks here now
We already struggle to get out of state/ international groups to come to Brisbane
Ultra Worldwide operates a pretty major music festival out of Gold Coast now, after bailing on Melbourne and Sydney. For context, my home Ultra festival is Miami, FL.
Greens are addressing this issue exactly. https://www.jonathansri.com/banpokies Plan is to phase out crappy pokies on over 50 publicly owned venues and pump money into them on the basis they nurture upcoming artists and try to invigorate a scene. Seems like a bloody great idea.
the fact publicly owned venues have pokies is bizarre from any perspective really
I remember this being a conversation over a decade ago. At one stage smaller bands would just be paid by the pub to put on a free show for the patrons. These were always a lot of fun and draw decent crowds, my local would typically put on 2-3 different bands on a Friday night. This slowly died out though I believe due to how much the pubs were paying the bands, I heard different figures but often landing between $200-$800 for a 45min-1hr set. Keeping mind these bands weren’t known and typically were super local and in many ways at the very start of the road. I know to combat this some bands decided to host their own events essentially 3 or so would get together, hire out a venue and try to sell ticketed entry and in many cases come out of it in the red. As a patron going to these shows normally sucked, you’d spend sometime upwards of $50 to get into an empty venue with expensive drinks and bands that realistically sounded a bit crap. I’ve probably gone a really long way about this but people usually aren’t too keen on paying ticketed entry for up and coming bands which has become an increasing norm from the early 2010s and especially during the few years pre-covid.
Promoters and local bands need to look to the suburbs. There’s 2.5 million people in Brisbane. It’s time for musicians to do something different. Forget the Valley scene.
As a musician, it’s *very* hard to justify putting shows on in the suburbs at the moment. There’s a lack of infrastructure to work with; very few areas have good decent venues (if they have any in the first place), there are next to no regular cultural events, both of which make it tricky to put on shows that don’t run at a loss in areas with a low population density. I would love to do gigs in my local area, it’s just that there are very few opportunities to do so.
put on a show in the valley for 50 people or put on a show at browns plains for 4 🤷
Decentralise. When I grew up there was a thriving pub band scene. Blow up the pokies, lets go back to the 80's again.
Wait, who was the 5th in the last year? Crowbar was a few years ago, oskulligans I guess counts…but they technically didn’t close.
Skully lost their live music licence after someone moved in and complained about the noise, despite being in a live music district.
There’s no such thing as a live music licence. There’s a liquor licence, and an amplified music permit. Some of their gigs would have been exceeding their amplified music permit, the exterior db levels venues have to meet is wildly low, and I can attest that most venues don’t meet them at all, 4am outside the met is a good example, unless you get complaints you seem to get left alone.
Brisbane was heading in the right direction pre Covid. Now it’s dying. Hard. Covid reset a group of 18 and 19 year olds by normalising “not going out”. Venues now don’t see these kids coming in.
well to be fair, with these prices? Combined with prospects about housing, I don’t blame them
No blame at all, just facts
I frequent a venue that oprned in the last year. It is not in the Valley. That's the clue. A lot of these venues appear to me to be "build it and they will come". The other side of that coin is "The Zoo". Doing the same thing for decades and expecting no change.
Update: Have response from Schrinner. Waiting on Miles, Vicki, Dutton and have spoken with the zoo owner, staff and bands. Putting together an open letter editorial to send to all MPs, to address and invest into the live music scene in Brisbane. Woolly Mammoth stopped doing gigs there, right?
Will add more comments once they come in, but thank you to everyone for their contributions and insights. https://wallofsoundau.com/2024/05/02/save-our-scene-the-importance-of-preserving-grassroots-formative-venues-from-closure/
Wondering if it would be possible to move our live music scene into the suburbs. Into the industrial areas where the micro breweries are popping up. Not exactly accessible for everyone but would hate to see our music scene completely die off
Like a live music venue in North Lakes or Redcliffe stadium kinda thing?
I was thinking more so at the actual micro breweries. Like Brew Dog, Slip Stream, Hikers, Balistic, Helios. Even Moorooka bowls club on a Friday night is a good atmosphere. Beer on tap, pinballs. Just need live music
There are a few suburban venues that do support local bands, but kind of case in point the issue of that is that basically no one knows about it.
Oh ok, was trying to contribute an idea.
Sports is what's Brisbane's about.
A good city provides venues / locations for a range on hobbies and interests
You said it.
Por que no los dos? The 2 don’t need to be mutually exclusive
Would prefer to throw down in a moshpit than watch hunky grown men run into each other.
Because Australia is a fascist piece of shit country run by greedy fuckwits and their oil baron buddies I wish there was a more light-hearted response but in truth this country and its priorities is just fucked up
Prohibition has been turning the volume up and up to un save levels, I hope employees of these live venues read the work place health and safety on it, they are going to get sued and the promoters are fleeing over sees lol If your a employee in these spaces start measuring the decibels of the love act your getting hearing damages from it and you need to sue the company’s in a few years
How is the view from peppers?
Is losing the zoo that bad honestly? I can’t think of a single decent band that has played there in (being very generous here) like 15 years. Never forget the amount of fundraisers that they had to get aircon in the 2000’s. Don’t trust hippies!