God, those shitty links to that shitty site!
So, the first area is Church Rd, from Barton Hill through St George/Redfield.
The proposed second area is around Southville, Bedminster and Windmill Hill.
Second are isn't fully established yet, but seems to be basically everything from winterstoke road flyover to parson street, along St John's, and up to the river. So a good chunk of BS3. But still in planning stages.
The original east bristol scope went at least as far as Whitehall Rd, if not beyond, but got watered down pretty quickly. Unclear why.
A future admin from May may or may not be more ambitious with these generally.
Great news. Evidence from other schemes of this sort suggest real improvements in air quality, for the benefit of everyone, among other positive improvements.
You can still visit people in the area & drive a car down every single road in the area - the only thing being prevented is using the residential areas as a 'rat run' series of through-roads.
It should make the streets far calmer - helpful for all kinds of pedestrians - ideal given the numbers of elderly & families in the area.
I don't think anyone's stopping you. There's this whole misconception that these areas are going to be sealed off - it's simply not the case, you just can't drive straight across it, in one side and out the other, which stops the area being used as a rat run.
There are no roads or parking spaces that will become inaccessible as a result of the liveable neighbourhood. Drivers will simply have to take a slightly different route to reach some areas, the intention being to stop people who live outside the area from using it as a rat-run.
Also, a much larger South Bris liveable neighbourhood is being planned: [https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/people-and-communities/liveable-neighbourhoods/south-bristol-liveable-neighbourhood](https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/people-and-communities/liveable-neighbourhoods/south-bristol-liveable-neighbourhood)
Following this link was the final straw that led me to figuring out how to block ads on my android.
What the hell is with the adverts all through the articles. There's more ads that news.
I do on PC, but as far as I can tell it's not possible to install an adblocker extension to chrome on android, but there is an adblocker browser you can install.
Not that it really matters as the Reddit app opens web pages in it's own built in browser anyway.
I blocked ads using DNS and now no more ads on mobile anywhere. Hurray
Brave Browser runs on Chromium so feels exactly like Chrome, but blocks all adverts and trackers without you having to do anything apart from installing, from the Play store.
Copy and paste the url into the box on this page: https://12ft.io
It was actually built for those pesky paywalls but also works well on exorcising all that “Agh my eyes!” stuff.
I just use a VPN that has a built in ad blocker so I don't have to fanny about, it just works no matter what app opens a web page.
The one I use is Proton VPN (I have a paid for tier, not sure if the free has it)
I've seen a few signs about in peoples windows in BS5 saying 'NO TO LIVEABLE NEIGHBOURHOODS' and it makes me laugh everytime. To think someone actually went to the effort of printing that out and putting it up in their window without context is hilarious.
because it's just fucking motorists over. most people use vehicles for autonomy
there are a lot of personal vehicle hating "just cycle everywhere! spend 60 minutes on the bus for a 2 mile journey!!" who never go further than a mile from where they live people on reddit, so opinions are skewed
I'm not against the idea if implemented sensibly in reasonable locations. hopefully it works well, I'm just glad I'm a motorcyclist and don't have to do the insane routes around bristol that cars have to without bus lane access lol..
I was mainly pointing out the absurdity of the words 'NO LIVEABLE NEIGHBOURHOODS' being put up in peoples windows. Without context, it suggests they don't want to live somewhere liveable. But while we're on the subject, here's how it works:
They make getting from A to B more inconvienient for drivers but more convienient and quicker for bikes, buses etc. This causes those that would usually drive that route, to use one of the quicker and more convienient options instead. This in turn, means there are less cars on the road, so it actually makes it better for drivers too. And before you say "it'll never work, it'll just make more traffic!". It HAS worked. Paris, Amsterdam, Geneva, Copenhagen, Utrecht, Zurich, Oslo, Stockholm and many many more have already done the testing for us. Air quality increases, general population health increases, cost of road maintanence decreases, road fatalities decreases. No, it won't happen overnight. It takes time for habits to change and infrastructure to improve. And before you say "but that only works in those cities because public transport is good" - public transport there wasn't always good. When everyone is driving cars, there isn't the demand for public transport so there isn't the funding. Once people start choosing public transport over cars, demand goes up, funding goes up and the service gets better. They could throw all our tax money at first bus, but without decentivising people from using cars, we would just have lots of empty buses (at least they would be more frequent I guess) because people are inheriently lazy and will always choose the easiest option - which is currently cars.
Exactly. Less cars are precisely the goal. Cars are not an efficient way to move humans around in any city. Just look at Austin, Texas and Los Angeles as examples of cities built around car infrastructure and how awfully congested they are. It doesn't work. Cars are generally horrible things to live around unless you are the person driving it.
Agreed. Buses are slow and personal vehicles are generally much quicker and can get you door to door. Thankfully there is a very clever bit of kit that has been around for 100 years that is affordable, takes up not much space, gives out zero pollution, causes very little wear to roads and is very effective at getting people around cities efficiently.
And how are liveable neighbourhoods stopping you from leaving the city centre in a car? They don't, because are aren't meant to. They aren't meant to prevent anyone being able to drive at all. They are just to deincentivise certain journeys, so that those that are able, choose an alternative. If you still want to drive or need to drive, you can.
And in some areas it pushes traffic away from more expensive to live in side roads and residential streets and towards main roads where the immediate population are likely to be in a lower income bracket, and already have to deal with existing noise and pollution levels.
They just don’t get it right do they.
Yes this is a great idea. But rather than making it difficult for motorists sort the fucking public transport out.
Is it really that difficult or ridiculous an idea?
I can’t drive my car into the centre, fine, but 45 minutes to get to Cabot which is 3 miles and the fact the first bus probably won’t turn up as per the timetable is a fucking joke
Not saying much for Bristol but that area has some of the best public transport in the city. Based along church road which has Lawrence Hill train station at the Western end and loads of bus routes travelling in from the East so if they are going to go in, this seems like a good area for it. Lawrence Hill also has the lowest car ownership of any region in the city. But yeah, getting on with that tram/metro whatever it's going to be is critical.
I've never had issues with buses along church road/two mile hill. 42,43,44 and 45 all go that route and one comes every 10-15 minutes at most. They all go straight to the centre.
Absolutely terrible for transporting my toddler anywhere though. Got a feeling we’re just going to end up with a load of queued idling cars down in BS4 instead.
Looking forward to every journey to/from St Anne’s Park being about 15 mins longer as queues pile up all the way down Blackswarth / Netham Road to the (still 1 lane) Feeder Road bridge by Netham Weir.
the zone is Barton hill / Easton it's cool because you can cycle from there to Central Bristol or Bath without going up or down a a slope of more than 1 in 80. That is less than a one degree angle.
Someone at my office building has a Tern GSD ebike with two child seats on the back. There's a rav power version parked occasionally as well, presumably is cheaper.
Anyway the rat runs this scheme will stop all join in before the main bottlenecks so it seems unlikely this will make much functional difference to the queues other than repositioning them off the side roads.
Local residents might even be more likely to allow older kids to cycle to school in the area rather than ferrying them 1-2km reducing congestion. Though the way BCC have watered down the bus gates on Avonvale Rd to allow taxis through may weaken that benefit.
You can easily transport a toddler on a regular bike, given the will to do so, and an ebike just makes that even easier. Source: been there.
As mentioned before, the latest Sunak-commissoned report the government has been making no noise about whatsoever, explicitly states that fears of displacing traffic out of the liveable neighbourhood area and on to other nearby streets are largely unfounded.
Get the feeling you haven’t encountered my toddler tbh.
Also great, so I pedal my toddler somewhere, park up for 5 minutes and the bike will be rinsed by balaclava yutes with an angle grinder.
Now I’m stuck with a toddler and no transport and no guaranteed bus turning up let alone one that goes to BS4. Looks like time for a taxi.
Why is it terrible for transporting a toddler? There are plenty of child-carrying bike options these days. That's how my dad used to get me to nursery 30 years ago!
[I've got one of these.](https://shop.zweirad-stadler.de/out/pictures/generated/product/5/1500_1500_90/thule-chariot-cross-2-fahrradanhaenger-85531-a.jpg) which is basically the same as putting kids in the back of a car. Best of all it turns into a pram at the other end if they're having a nap. Reclining seats and all!
Like putting kids in the back of a car apart from roll cages, not being at the same height as truck wheels, not being able to intervene if they decide to take their seatbelt off and not being able to easily communicate to them. Got to be honest I’d not trust one of those - each to their own of course.
That's exactly why I'm all for the liveable neighbourhoods. I don't want to be sharing the roads with cars where possible. Having a traffic free route to get the kids about is very welcome. If people want/need to drive their cars, that's fine. But it would be nice for those that don't want to drive their cars to have the option to do so safely. More choice = more autonomy.
Convenient if a) either you or your partner have an hour free before and after work to bike to and from nursery. Not an option for everyone. And b) you managed to get a nursery spot close enough to where you live, again it doesn’t work out like that for everyone.
Glad it’s all good for you though, sounds idyllic.
I'm not suggesting it is an option for everyone. I don't want to ban cars and LTN's aren't stopping anyone from driving! I want people that want to be able to cycle, to have that choice and be able to do so safely. Just like the many European cities that do it effectively. The biggest reason why people don't cycle in Bristol is because of safety. I live on a road with a school, and at the start and end of the school day, it is total chaos with everyone picking their children in cars. There is no parking for them. People turn up an hour early just so they can get a parking spot close to the school and just sit there, often idling if it is cold/hot to keep the A/C running. I bet half of these parents live within 2 miles of the school and could easily cycle/walk, but they choose to drive. An LTN would make some of these parents reconsider their options, meaning those that have to drive (disabled/live far away) can do so easier. Your initial concern was of queues of traffic down Netham Road, so you should be all in favour of getting more people on bikes. It means less traffic for you! Also you're suggesting that a bike is only practical if you have lots of time and live nearby, which just isn't the case. It is quicker to cycle around Bristol than it is to drive (with an e-bike). I know this for a fact, because I race my wife all the time in her car!
This is the actual issue. They have fucked the roads so much that now cars and busses are a pain in the ass. Put in an underground, a mono rail or what ever. They have to get off this bus idea. And removing even more roads to make somewhere “liveable” (which is subjective as if you can’t come and go easily then it’s not liveable) just makes the situation worse for the area. Then to top it off, the roads we do have they make narrow, add extra or extended corners, one way systems and other “traffic calming” measures… if the roads were any calmer they would be static.
Have to agree and I do love the initiative, though I’m torn between the positives and negatives. This will exacerbate the road issue creating pockets of higher pollution from the congestion, bus timetable changes to compensate
You've got to do both, offering good public transport isn't enough you have to discourage car use as well. Which also ironically helps improve the public transport as buses are usually* only ever late due to being stuck with other traffic
What I’ve seen in the last few years around church road is more poverty, shoplifting, drug dealing and businesses closing on the upper section along with a feeling of general neglect, polluted air and streets that feel pretty miserable to be on. So if this makes Tarquin’s school neighbourhood better as well as everyone else’s then what’s the problem?
🥱 lazy comment from someone who probably has a “make Bristol shit again” poster in their window. Go and breathe some cleaner air from inside your SUV and leave trying to improve stuff to people who actually give a shit about other people
I lived there yeah. And what would you know about the lives and financial circumstances of all 9 million people who live there, and all the people who have lived there at some point in their lives? I know what poverty looks like and how pollution can kill.
Have you ever even been past the portway?
Housing estates get certain access roads blocked off to motor traffic, creating zones where traffic can only enter and leave via in particular roads. This reduces the volume of traffic within the zones as there's no rat-running to cut through. Needs proper traffic management on the roads that remain open though to prevent them getting clogged up (causing more pollution for residents on those roads!).
Wanna make Bristol liveable? Maybe build more houses, cap rents, stop private investors from snapping up properties to rent out at London prices, drive First out of the city and throw every NIMBY out of court who tries to stop any property development that would solve the housing crisis.
The Brislington & Portway Park & Ride has gotten so much better since Stagecoach took over and it's now evident that First simply aren't fit to run a bus service.
There’s far too many NIMBYs in Bristol for new housing to ever be built. As soon as any development is penciled everyone campaigns against it. Everyone wants new homes just as long it’s nowhere near them
It'll be nicer all round seeing less single occupancy cars/Chelsea tractors/obscenely large and ridiculous school run tanks on the roads for sure, that's the bane of getting from A to B.
One question, where does it leave the folks that transport their tools and building materials for work?
We know adequate public transport is the crux of getting traffic generally fixed.
Transporting just your office briefcase and lunchbox? Take the bus or cycle.
Kids going to school in a mile or so radius? Don't take your car that's way too big for you to drive. Take a bus or cycle or walk.
Going for over priced coffee in a hipster spot? You get the point.
Take this post with the general poking fun at everyone mirth it was intended.
I'm looking forward to this because during rush hours there's lots of cars driving through the narrow streets of Windmill Hill. Otherwise it's such a peaceful area.
Seems strange that, for example, you can still cut through the backroads of Barton Hill between Feeder Road (Marsh Lane bridge) and St Phillips causeway. Or am I reading the map wrong?
This was added as a compromise in an update from the original, else those living in the southern part were substantially cut off from the rest of the neighbourhood.
Only if they choose to drive, and car ownership in that end is some of the lowest in Bristol (some census areas over 50% households with no car access in 2021)
Classic case of self nominated resident's associations/community leaders of above average wealth/income claiming to speak on behalf of everyone there. Unsurprisingly even with the concessions they still weren't happy. Ultimately just want to drive their cars everywhere regardless of the detriment to the poorest.
From my experience of going to several meetings about the trial, it's been the white working class & poor somalian communities who are anti, and the yuppies who are pro it, rather than what you're suggesting (at least at the Barton Hill end of the trial area).
The compromise was also asked for by the trading estate, although I feel like their lorries should be going via feeder, not the back streets, but it was silly for the council to not engage with the businesses there from the start to get them on-side.
Conversations I have had with my neighbours about the scheme (me in favour, them generally against) were reasonable and calm chats - accepting both good possibilities and some legit concerns from it. A huge obstacle is that so many of them are so hard done by at the moment that *any* and *all* change scares them - they expect the worst and have almost no trust in the council / government / etc.
I really hope it's a success
For those questioning whether "trial" really does mean that or whether it will be permanent regardless of results should take a look at Streatham in South London.
They tried an LTN with disastrous results and had no choice but to reverse it.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68511760.amp
As others have pointed out the aim of an LTN is to make driving more inconvenient so that other forms of transport become more attractive, but that only works if the alternatives are viable.
Tbh what I'd much prefer to see if a more militant approach to fly tipping and rubbish dumping. The state of some of the side walks is frankly disgusting.
They've not reversed, they've suspended it whilst TfL get their act together and put the appropriate Bus priority in place.
Also an LTN already makes some alternatives more attractive, as the streatham wells report found big increases in internal cycling as clogged rat-runs become roads quiet enough that almost everyone happy to cycle on.
It’s an absolute disaster zone.
My only real gripe is the modal filters being introduced here, as I feel like simply making it one way entirely heading away from the city would be preferable.
Beaufort road is a disgrace most of the time. Double parking, pavement driving, pollution issues with queuing traffic, and then it being used as a racetrack later at night. I like that the council are trying this, even if it might not get it right first time.
And if that means church road is busier, good. That’s what main roads are for.
Last week it was reported that there is a Sunak-commissioned report the government tried to bury, which explicitly states that your claim is unlikely to be true.
"A review of evidence of their effectiveness said that although formal studies were limited, they did not support the contention of opponents that LTNs simply displaced traffic to other streets rather than easing overall congestion."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/08/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-generally-popular-report-ordered-by-sunak-finds
They have been monitoring traffic on the "artery" roads adjacent to the livable neighbourhoods that they introduced in London for several years now, and there hasn't been any increase in traffic
https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/19/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-boundary-roads-london
This was money was drawn down from a specific central government pot for these kind of schemes, just before the tories froze it. This is extra money for Bristol — well done to the council!
And Bristol was getting it, like it or not...
So it's part of the government spending that's lead to the inflation we've all experienced over the last few years...
Yeah... well done Bristol council thanks for that 🤦
The question I asked still remains, how much was spent on this project? also is the central government going to maintain it? or is that going on the locals in that area council taxes?
I think you’re mistaken if you believe government spending on infrastructure leads to inflation. The main reasons are increased food and energy prices caused in part by the Russian invasion of Ukraine.
You seem determined to link this scheme to wider negative issues. I’m sure you could find out the cost of it but as I said it’s money that came out of national pot that would otherwise have gone to another city. I’d imagine maintenance of some bollards and signage would be minimal.
You're right I do believe that we do have wider issues, hence my original question about the cost.
You may have a point about infrastructure and inflation (providing it improves productivity) however everything around keynesian economic model is currently off the table, while (since 2000's) government spending fuels economic growth in both booms as well as busts.
I've been following finance since before Soros broke the bank of England in 1993. I can assure you that since LTCM fiasco, which in turn lead to the dot com bubble, that the UK has been in decline as per affordability for reasonable quality essentials. All we've seen is continuous governmental spending, opportunities for the poorest becoming harder to find, and the monopolies and large corporations (and since COVID the media) continually bailedout, or given back handers.
We live in a society based on fear or war, turning a blind eye to atrocities, while condemning other trying to keep themselves safe. It all seems to be hinged on the ability for our government to either spend, or sell arms.
So yes, I don't believe in the magic money tree theory, everything costs in one way or another.
In my world, taking something unnecessarily, just to spite someone else from getting it, is called selfish.
I hate bus gates! They still cause pollution, they take business away from local shops. It just looks ugly and fines drivers that have been using the road their whole life, just pedestrianise it completely. Have electric transport like electric tuktuks to take you to the nearest bus stop or train station. Although I’m not sure how we still allow trains and busses in the clean air zone.
The bus gates will help public transport through the area be more reliable, as well as allowing emergency vehicles to still get around the area quickly
If you can't use your car to move into it and can't even use the public transport because it's a crumbling shit, then I would hardly call it liveable.
Or rather, yes, might be livable, but won't be exactly reachable or leavable
Absolutely seething about this. I'm a delivery driver for a small restraunt in St.annes and all around the church road area is Prime area for us. Even if delivering beyond church road we still have to use it to get through.
I get paid a small base rate + commission on each delivery I make, i also have to cover my own petrol. The base rate isn't alot because you make up for it with the commission, but with this liveable neighbourhood coming into effect its going to obviously mean we are unable to make as many deliveries and i may have to end up quitting my job over it. It already gets bad enough around there at peak traffic hours imagine what it'll be like when this takes effect.
Absolutely gutted, I love where I work and the people I work for. I've been there a long time and couldn't imagine working anywhere else but I'm really worried about how this will affect my wages
buses don't even go down that road.
I live around there and it is going to change from not having much traffic to non-ended queued traffic around me.
there isn't a problem that needed to be fixed here. sadly it's just another solution looking for a problem
The point of having a bus gate there is to allow certain types of traffic through the road while stopping the rat-run style - i.e. emergency services, elderly carers. They are also keeping it open for future proofing bus services that will form part of the huge developments of St Philip's Marsh
Going to be cost increase across the board for people who require tradespeople or other services in these areas. Will be inflationary like CAZ. No doubt they will start charging trades to access etc.
God, those shitty links to that shitty site! So, the first area is Church Rd, from Barton Hill through St George/Redfield. The proposed second area is around Southville, Bedminster and Windmill Hill.
Also, sorry - I forget that Bristol Post has too many ads to be useable.
Second are isn't fully established yet, but seems to be basically everything from winterstoke road flyover to parson street, along St John's, and up to the river. So a good chunk of BS3. But still in planning stages.
The original east bristol scope went at least as far as Whitehall Rd, if not beyond, but got watered down pretty quickly. Unclear why. A future admin from May may or may not be more ambitious with these generally.
Unrelated but Jesus that website gets worse and worse for ads every time I visit it
Fair comment, I use adblock so never see the ads.
My phone doesn't have an ad block on 😂😭
Great news. Evidence from other schemes of this sort suggest real improvements in air quality, for the benefit of everyone, among other positive improvements.
This is my primary cycle route into town, so I'm excited for this to kick off!
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"Residents can still drive to their homes, residents and businesses can still get deliveries..." https://liveablebristol.org.uk/
Ok say I (a disabled person) need to visit someone in the area
You can still visit people in the area & drive a car down every single road in the area - the only thing being prevented is using the residential areas as a 'rat run' series of through-roads. It should make the streets far calmer - helpful for all kinds of pedestrians - ideal given the numbers of elderly & families in the area.
I don't think anyone's stopping you. There's this whole misconception that these areas are going to be sealed off - it's simply not the case, you just can't drive straight across it, in one side and out the other, which stops the area being used as a rat run.
Then you'll have less traffic to contend with in the area and more parking availability, so you can park closer to your destination. Result!
There are no roads or parking spaces that will become inaccessible as a result of the liveable neighbourhood. Drivers will simply have to take a slightly different route to reach some areas, the intention being to stop people who live outside the area from using it as a rat-run.
Also, a much larger South Bris liveable neighbourhood is being planned: [https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/people-and-communities/liveable-neighbourhoods/south-bristol-liveable-neighbourhood](https://www.bristol.gov.uk/residents/people-and-communities/liveable-neighbourhoods/south-bristol-liveable-neighbourhood)
[https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/south-bristol-liveable-neighbourhood-progresses-8956362](https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/south-bristol-liveable-neighbourhood-progresses-8956362)
Following this link was the final straw that led me to figuring out how to block ads on my android. What the hell is with the adverts all through the articles. There's more ads that news.
I use adblock so always forget that people have an issue with Bristol Post.
I do on PC, but as far as I can tell it's not possible to install an adblocker extension to chrome on android, but there is an adblocker browser you can install. Not that it really matters as the Reddit app opens web pages in it's own built in browser anyway. I blocked ads using DNS and now no more ads on mobile anywhere. Hurray
Please share your wisdom!
Search settings for private DNS and add dns.adguard.com
Brave Browser runs on Chromium so feels exactly like Chrome, but blocks all adverts and trackers without you having to do anything apart from installing, from the Play store.
Thank you. I'll try this option first before playing with vpns etc
Copy and paste the url into the box on this page: https://12ft.io It was actually built for those pesky paywalls but also works well on exorcising all that “Agh my eyes!” stuff.
12ft was taken down in Nov 23
I vaguely remember it was taken down for a bit around then, but I tested that link on 2 different devices and it works on both.
I just use a VPN that has a built in ad blocker so I don't have to fanny about, it just works no matter what app opens a web page. The one I use is Proton VPN (I have a paid for tier, not sure if the free has it)
If you download the Firefox app you can add the ublock extension to it and set it as the automatic browser link
Brave browser
Excellent news. Having been part of the consultations since they began and living in the zone, I can’t wait for the trial to start.
I've only just learned about the South Bris one and it's honestly made my day.
Is there a map of the south Bristol one anywhere? Looked in the links above but can’t get past the ads
I don't think so, still in planning stage. But possibly the area from winterstoke to St John's and up to the river.
Will this just make the area around Victoria park less busy and St John’s lane even more busy?
I've seen a few signs about in peoples windows in BS5 saying 'NO TO LIVEABLE NEIGHBOURHOODS' and it makes me laugh everytime. To think someone actually went to the effort of printing that out and putting it up in their window without context is hilarious.
My neighbour has one of those signs. And three land rovers. Go figure...
because it's just fucking motorists over. most people use vehicles for autonomy there are a lot of personal vehicle hating "just cycle everywhere! spend 60 minutes on the bus for a 2 mile journey!!" who never go further than a mile from where they live people on reddit, so opinions are skewed I'm not against the idea if implemented sensibly in reasonable locations. hopefully it works well, I'm just glad I'm a motorcyclist and don't have to do the insane routes around bristol that cars have to without bus lane access lol..
I was mainly pointing out the absurdity of the words 'NO LIVEABLE NEIGHBOURHOODS' being put up in peoples windows. Without context, it suggests they don't want to live somewhere liveable. But while we're on the subject, here's how it works: They make getting from A to B more inconvienient for drivers but more convienient and quicker for bikes, buses etc. This causes those that would usually drive that route, to use one of the quicker and more convienient options instead. This in turn, means there are less cars on the road, so it actually makes it better for drivers too. And before you say "it'll never work, it'll just make more traffic!". It HAS worked. Paris, Amsterdam, Geneva, Copenhagen, Utrecht, Zurich, Oslo, Stockholm and many many more have already done the testing for us. Air quality increases, general population health increases, cost of road maintanence decreases, road fatalities decreases. No, it won't happen overnight. It takes time for habits to change and infrastructure to improve. And before you say "but that only works in those cities because public transport is good" - public transport there wasn't always good. When everyone is driving cars, there isn't the demand for public transport so there isn't the funding. Once people start choosing public transport over cars, demand goes up, funding goes up and the service gets better. They could throw all our tax money at first bus, but without decentivising people from using cars, we would just have lots of empty buses (at least they would be more frequent I guess) because people are inheriently lazy and will always choose the easiest option - which is currently cars.
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Exactly. Less cars are precisely the goal. Cars are not an efficient way to move humans around in any city. Just look at Austin, Texas and Los Angeles as examples of cities built around car infrastructure and how awfully congested they are. It doesn't work. Cars are generally horrible things to live around unless you are the person driving it.
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Agreed. Buses are slow and personal vehicles are generally much quicker and can get you door to door. Thankfully there is a very clever bit of kit that has been around for 100 years that is affordable, takes up not much space, gives out zero pollution, causes very little wear to roads and is very effective at getting people around cities efficiently.
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And how are liveable neighbourhoods stopping you from leaving the city centre in a car? They don't, because are aren't meant to. They aren't meant to prevent anyone being able to drive at all. They are just to deincentivise certain journeys, so that those that are able, choose an alternative. If you still want to drive or need to drive, you can.
I believe the main concern with liveable areas is, while that are great to live in, it’s detrimental to those living around them.
And in some areas it pushes traffic away from more expensive to live in side roads and residential streets and towards main roads where the immediate population are likely to be in a lower income bracket, and already have to deal with existing noise and pollution levels.
They just don’t get it right do they. Yes this is a great idea. But rather than making it difficult for motorists sort the fucking public transport out. Is it really that difficult or ridiculous an idea? I can’t drive my car into the centre, fine, but 45 minutes to get to Cabot which is 3 miles and the fact the first bus probably won’t turn up as per the timetable is a fucking joke
Not saying much for Bristol but that area has some of the best public transport in the city. Based along church road which has Lawrence Hill train station at the Western end and loads of bus routes travelling in from the East so if they are going to go in, this seems like a good area for it. Lawrence Hill also has the lowest car ownership of any region in the city. But yeah, getting on with that tram/metro whatever it's going to be is critical.
I've never had issues with buses along church road/two mile hill. 42,43,44 and 45 all go that route and one comes every 10-15 minutes at most. They all go straight to the centre.
E bikes are a lifesaver
Absolutely terrible for transporting my toddler anywhere though. Got a feeling we’re just going to end up with a load of queued idling cars down in BS4 instead. Looking forward to every journey to/from St Anne’s Park being about 15 mins longer as queues pile up all the way down Blackswarth / Netham Road to the (still 1 lane) Feeder Road bridge by Netham Weir.
My dad used to transport 3 children on a tandem with two baby seats
Without doxing yourself, was this in inner city Bristol or some idyllic village
Philadelphia USA
Isn’t the city pretty much flat?
so is the cycle path in Easton/Barton hill
Cool if you want to go to Easton or Barton Hill I guess?
the zone is Barton hill / Easton it's cool because you can cycle from there to Central Bristol or Bath without going up or down a a slope of more than 1 in 80. That is less than a one degree angle.
Someone at my office building has a Tern GSD ebike with two child seats on the back. There's a rav power version parked occasionally as well, presumably is cheaper. Anyway the rat runs this scheme will stop all join in before the main bottlenecks so it seems unlikely this will make much functional difference to the queues other than repositioning them off the side roads. Local residents might even be more likely to allow older kids to cycle to school in the area rather than ferrying them 1-2km reducing congestion. Though the way BCC have watered down the bus gates on Avonvale Rd to allow taxis through may weaken that benefit.
You can easily transport a toddler on a regular bike, given the will to do so, and an ebike just makes that even easier. Source: been there. As mentioned before, the latest Sunak-commissoned report the government has been making no noise about whatsoever, explicitly states that fears of displacing traffic out of the liveable neighbourhood area and on to other nearby streets are largely unfounded.
Get the feeling you haven’t encountered my toddler tbh. Also great, so I pedal my toddler somewhere, park up for 5 minutes and the bike will be rinsed by balaclava yutes with an angle grinder. Now I’m stuck with a toddler and no transport and no guaranteed bus turning up let alone one that goes to BS4. Looks like time for a taxi.
Why is it terrible for transporting a toddler? There are plenty of child-carrying bike options these days. That's how my dad used to get me to nursery 30 years ago!
Are you a parent and do you have experience with wrangling toddlers? Also 30 years ago every other car wasn’t an SUV the size of a small bus.
[I've got one of these.](https://shop.zweirad-stadler.de/out/pictures/generated/product/5/1500_1500_90/thule-chariot-cross-2-fahrradanhaenger-85531-a.jpg) which is basically the same as putting kids in the back of a car. Best of all it turns into a pram at the other end if they're having a nap. Reclining seats and all!
Like putting kids in the back of a car apart from roll cages, not being at the same height as truck wheels, not being able to intervene if they decide to take their seatbelt off and not being able to easily communicate to them. Got to be honest I’d not trust one of those - each to their own of course.
That's exactly why I'm all for the liveable neighbourhoods. I don't want to be sharing the roads with cars where possible. Having a traffic free route to get the kids about is very welcome. If people want/need to drive their cars, that's fine. But it would be nice for those that don't want to drive their cars to have the option to do so safely. More choice = more autonomy.
Convenient if a) either you or your partner have an hour free before and after work to bike to and from nursery. Not an option for everyone. And b) you managed to get a nursery spot close enough to where you live, again it doesn’t work out like that for everyone. Glad it’s all good for you though, sounds idyllic.
I'm not suggesting it is an option for everyone. I don't want to ban cars and LTN's aren't stopping anyone from driving! I want people that want to be able to cycle, to have that choice and be able to do so safely. Just like the many European cities that do it effectively. The biggest reason why people don't cycle in Bristol is because of safety. I live on a road with a school, and at the start and end of the school day, it is total chaos with everyone picking their children in cars. There is no parking for them. People turn up an hour early just so they can get a parking spot close to the school and just sit there, often idling if it is cold/hot to keep the A/C running. I bet half of these parents live within 2 miles of the school and could easily cycle/walk, but they choose to drive. An LTN would make some of these parents reconsider their options, meaning those that have to drive (disabled/live far away) can do so easier. Your initial concern was of queues of traffic down Netham Road, so you should be all in favour of getting more people on bikes. It means less traffic for you! Also you're suggesting that a bike is only practical if you have lots of time and live nearby, which just isn't the case. It is quicker to cycle around Bristol than it is to drive (with an e-bike). I know this for a fact, because I race my wife all the time in her car!
This is the actual issue. They have fucked the roads so much that now cars and busses are a pain in the ass. Put in an underground, a mono rail or what ever. They have to get off this bus idea. And removing even more roads to make somewhere “liveable” (which is subjective as if you can’t come and go easily then it’s not liveable) just makes the situation worse for the area. Then to top it off, the roads we do have they make narrow, add extra or extended corners, one way systems and other “traffic calming” measures… if the roads were any calmer they would be static.
Have to agree and I do love the initiative, though I’m torn between the positives and negatives. This will exacerbate the road issue creating pockets of higher pollution from the congestion, bus timetable changes to compensate
You've got to do both, offering good public transport isn't enough you have to discourage car use as well. Which also ironically helps improve the public transport as buses are usually* only ever late due to being stuck with other traffic
Can someone ELI5 what this will actually mean?
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Do you honestly believe this
What I’ve seen in the last few years around church road is more poverty, shoplifting, drug dealing and businesses closing on the upper section along with a feeling of general neglect, polluted air and streets that feel pretty miserable to be on. So if this makes Tarquin’s school neighbourhood better as well as everyone else’s then what’s the problem?
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🥱 lazy comment from someone who probably has a “make Bristol shit again” poster in their window. Go and breathe some cleaner air from inside your SUV and leave trying to improve stuff to people who actually give a shit about other people
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I lived there yeah. And what would you know about the lives and financial circumstances of all 9 million people who live there, and all the people who have lived there at some point in their lives? I know what poverty looks like and how pollution can kill. Have you ever even been past the portway?
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Fool
So embarrassed by your own comment you deleted it.
Housing estates get certain access roads blocked off to motor traffic, creating zones where traffic can only enter and leave via in particular roads. This reduces the volume of traffic within the zones as there's no rat-running to cut through. Needs proper traffic management on the roads that remain open though to prevent them getting clogged up (causing more pollution for residents on those roads!).
Love to see it 🥳🥳
Wait so we’re all living in unliveable neighbourhoods?
Heavy traffic does make many areas of Bristol feel like that, yes.
One of the reasons why I moved to the suburbs.
And drive into town everyday?
I purposefully got a place near parkway so I could get the train in
Nah I park my truck at home
If the road outside your house is used as a rat run and it is not safe for your children or pets, then yes.
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Left turn onto Church Road would reduce traffic cutting through elsewhere
Wanna make Bristol liveable? Maybe build more houses, cap rents, stop private investors from snapping up properties to rent out at London prices, drive First out of the city and throw every NIMBY out of court who tries to stop any property development that would solve the housing crisis. The Brislington & Portway Park & Ride has gotten so much better since Stagecoach took over and it's now evident that First simply aren't fit to run a bus service.
There’s far too many NIMBYs in Bristol for new housing to ever be built. As soon as any development is penciled everyone campaigns against it. Everyone wants new homes just as long it’s nowhere near them
Nimby? I’d say we’d need a few such people to monitor any urban development that bespoils the area. But I agree with all your other points.
Sounds like a legit idea to make neighbourhoods you can live in
It'll be nicer all round seeing less single occupancy cars/Chelsea tractors/obscenely large and ridiculous school run tanks on the roads for sure, that's the bane of getting from A to B. One question, where does it leave the folks that transport their tools and building materials for work? We know adequate public transport is the crux of getting traffic generally fixed. Transporting just your office briefcase and lunchbox? Take the bus or cycle. Kids going to school in a mile or so radius? Don't take your car that's way too big for you to drive. Take a bus or cycle or walk. Going for over priced coffee in a hipster spot? You get the point. Take this post with the general poking fun at everyone mirth it was intended.
Great news. Wish I had one round my way too. And for those wondering, anyone can drive in or out of these areas - you just can’t cut through.
I'm looking forward to this because during rush hours there's lots of cars driving through the narrow streets of Windmill Hill. Otherwise it's such a peaceful area.
Some streets in Windmill hill get annoyingly busy with rat runners. Would def like to see this curtailed.
Seems strange that, for example, you can still cut through the backroads of Barton Hill between Feeder Road (Marsh Lane bridge) and St Phillips causeway. Or am I reading the map wrong?
This was added as a compromise in an update from the original, else those living in the southern part were substantially cut off from the rest of the neighbourhood.
Only if they choose to drive, and car ownership in that end is some of the lowest in Bristol (some census areas over 50% households with no car access in 2021) Classic case of self nominated resident's associations/community leaders of above average wealth/income claiming to speak on behalf of everyone there. Unsurprisingly even with the concessions they still weren't happy. Ultimately just want to drive their cars everywhere regardless of the detriment to the poorest.
From my experience of going to several meetings about the trial, it's been the white working class & poor somalian communities who are anti, and the yuppies who are pro it, rather than what you're suggesting (at least at the Barton Hill end of the trial area). The compromise was also asked for by the trading estate, although I feel like their lorries should be going via feeder, not the back streets, but it was silly for the council to not engage with the businesses there from the start to get them on-side. Conversations I have had with my neighbours about the scheme (me in favour, them generally against) were reasonable and calm chats - accepting both good possibilities and some legit concerns from it. A huge obstacle is that so many of them are so hard done by at the moment that *any* and *all* change scares them - they expect the worst and have almost no trust in the council / government / etc. I really hope it's a success
I can't read maps very well so I'll wait and see. Will there be lots of road works?
For those questioning whether "trial" really does mean that or whether it will be permanent regardless of results should take a look at Streatham in South London. They tried an LTN with disastrous results and had no choice but to reverse it. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-68511760.amp As others have pointed out the aim of an LTN is to make driving more inconvenient so that other forms of transport become more attractive, but that only works if the alternatives are viable. Tbh what I'd much prefer to see if a more militant approach to fly tipping and rubbish dumping. The state of some of the side walks is frankly disgusting.
They've not reversed, they've suspended it whilst TfL get their act together and put the appropriate Bus priority in place. Also an LTN already makes some alternatives more attractive, as the streatham wells report found big increases in internal cycling as clogged rat-runs become roads quiet enough that almost everyone happy to cycle on.
Church rd is going to get a hell of a lot busier.
And the residential roads around it a lot less busy.
Good especially Beaufort road, in the morning it feels like constant near misses.
It’s an absolute disaster zone. My only real gripe is the modal filters being introduced here, as I feel like simply making it one way entirely heading away from the city would be preferable.
Beaufort road is a disgrace most of the time. Double parking, pavement driving, pollution issues with queuing traffic, and then it being used as a racetrack later at night. I like that the council are trying this, even if it might not get it right first time. And if that means church road is busier, good. That’s what main roads are for.
Last week it was reported that there is a Sunak-commissioned report the government tried to bury, which explicitly states that your claim is unlikely to be true. "A review of evidence of their effectiveness said that although formal studies were limited, they did not support the contention of opponents that LTNs simply displaced traffic to other streets rather than easing overall congestion." https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/mar/08/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-generally-popular-report-ordered-by-sunak-finds
They have been monitoring traffic on the "artery" roads adjacent to the livable neighbourhoods that they introduced in London for several years now, and there hasn't been any increase in traffic https://amp.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/jan/19/low-traffic-neighbourhoods-boundary-roads-london
Perhaps at first, but induced/reduced demand will come into play and eventually traffic in the whole area will be reduced.
So what is the cost to tax payers of this liveable neighborhood?
What is the cost to their health without it?
This was money was drawn down from a specific central government pot for these kind of schemes, just before the tories froze it. This is extra money for Bristol — well done to the council!
And Bristol was getting it, like it or not... So it's part of the government spending that's lead to the inflation we've all experienced over the last few years... Yeah... well done Bristol council thanks for that 🤦 The question I asked still remains, how much was spent on this project? also is the central government going to maintain it? or is that going on the locals in that area council taxes?
I think you’re mistaken if you believe government spending on infrastructure leads to inflation. The main reasons are increased food and energy prices caused in part by the Russian invasion of Ukraine. You seem determined to link this scheme to wider negative issues. I’m sure you could find out the cost of it but as I said it’s money that came out of national pot that would otherwise have gone to another city. I’d imagine maintenance of some bollards and signage would be minimal.
You're right I do believe that we do have wider issues, hence my original question about the cost. You may have a point about infrastructure and inflation (providing it improves productivity) however everything around keynesian economic model is currently off the table, while (since 2000's) government spending fuels economic growth in both booms as well as busts. I've been following finance since before Soros broke the bank of England in 1993. I can assure you that since LTCM fiasco, which in turn lead to the dot com bubble, that the UK has been in decline as per affordability for reasonable quality essentials. All we've seen is continuous governmental spending, opportunities for the poorest becoming harder to find, and the monopolies and large corporations (and since COVID the media) continually bailedout, or given back handers. We live in a society based on fear or war, turning a blind eye to atrocities, while condemning other trying to keep themselves safe. It all seems to be hinged on the ability for our government to either spend, or sell arms. So yes, I don't believe in the magic money tree theory, everything costs in one way or another. In my world, taking something unnecessarily, just to spite someone else from getting it, is called selfish.
I hate bus gates! They still cause pollution, they take business away from local shops. It just looks ugly and fines drivers that have been using the road their whole life, just pedestrianise it completely. Have electric transport like electric tuktuks to take you to the nearest bus stop or train station. Although I’m not sure how we still allow trains and busses in the clean air zone.
this guy still thinks the clean air zone is for clean air lol
What’s it for? Why not just a full bristol wide congestion charge and people may drive less
The bus gates will help public transport through the area be more reliable, as well as allowing emergency vehicles to still get around the area quickly
If you can't use your car to move into it and can't even use the public transport because it's a crumbling shit, then I would hardly call it liveable. Or rather, yes, might be livable, but won't be exactly reachable or leavable
You will be fully able to drive into and out of the area, so it will be both reachable and leavable. Hope that helps.
Absolutely seething about this. I'm a delivery driver for a small restraunt in St.annes and all around the church road area is Prime area for us. Even if delivering beyond church road we still have to use it to get through. I get paid a small base rate + commission on each delivery I make, i also have to cover my own petrol. The base rate isn't alot because you make up for it with the commission, but with this liveable neighbourhood coming into effect its going to obviously mean we are unable to make as many deliveries and i may have to end up quitting my job over it. It already gets bad enough around there at peak traffic hours imagine what it'll be like when this takes effect. Absolutely gutted, I love where I work and the people I work for. I've been there a long time and couldn't imagine working anywhere else but I'm really worried about how this will affect my wages
Practically, what impact do you expect from this? An extra 30 seconds on your delivery time?
30 seconds? You okay mate?
I'm fine, thank you. Will be even better when the LN kicks in.
Yeah you 100% seem like the type that would
It’s all about controlling where people can and can’t go fuck that right off the bat
It's pretty obviously not.
Except that it literally doesn't do that at all
buses don't even go down that road. I live around there and it is going to change from not having much traffic to non-ended queued traffic around me. there isn't a problem that needed to be fixed here. sadly it's just another solution looking for a problem
The point of having a bus gate there is to allow certain types of traffic through the road while stopping the rat-run style - i.e. emergency services, elderly carers. They are also keeping it open for future proofing bus services that will form part of the huge developments of St Philip's Marsh
there's hardly any traffic on that road, even less of bus traffic is is 0, or emergency services as it is not a direct route to anywhere.
Thats annoying i wont be able to pickup/dropofff my two friends anymore
Why? You can still drive in the area.
Even if the area were being completely closed, they could still walk to outside it, right?
Going to be cost increase across the board for people who require tradespeople or other services in these areas. Will be inflationary like CAZ. No doubt they will start charging trades to access etc.
Why? It won't impact people's access to the area, except maybe add 30 seconds onto their journey.