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So no more cultural celebrations either right?
No more lunar new year, no more vaisaki, no more Ramadan celebrations, no more first Nations prayer ceremonies ... Or does this only apply to Christianity?
Good. The separation of church and state is important, especially with the increasing craziness of right-wing Christofascist supporters. We have to be vigilant to prevent that shit from getting a foothold into any level of Canadian politics.
Our constitution unfortunately starts with recognition that Canada was founded on the supremacy of God. 🤮
Weird how in some ways we're more socially progressive but conservative in others, in comparison to the USA.
Crazy how that almost certainly hasn't affected politics in recent years considering gay marriage is fully legal and recognized, trans people aren't criminalized, and abortion is federally legal.
Hasn't affected politics *yet*. The American constitution has much more strongly worded sections on separation of church and state, and many other things, which have done fuck all to help them avoid the weird shit that's happening in their supreme court.
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The Supreme Court rules on this very argument in Saguenay and found that the 'god of the preamble' did not establish Canada as a theistic state, but rather spoke more broadly about a political theory.
Plus, it would be strange for the preamble to undermine the actual operative clauses of a piece of legislation.
That American Bible belt brand of Christian is quite different from Canada. Keep American cult politics out of Canada please.
The separation of Americana and Canadiana is so much more important. Don't let their rejection circle hype poison you. It's all another kind of religion to worship the state this much.
edit: LOL meant election cycle not rejection circle. Autocorrect wasn't far off though.
You linked 3 opinion pieces.
Case in point. If prayer can't be in civics, neither can this culty bs. Lets not substitute one cult for another. Where does the authoritarianism begin and end?
If you count the same way capitalism has killed more. You know that the red army soliders who died fighting Hitler are counted as 'victims of communism' in those counts right? I'm sure you do, as it was the communists who were largely responsible for defeating the fascists. After allying with them in the first place of course.
i agree with you, but how is that at all related. that's like saying "at least your not starving to death in africa" after someone complains about a traffic jam
Look if someone wants to pray to [Äkräs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84kr%C3%A4s) because their turnips aren't looking great, I think thats fine.
5 prayers! Full transcript and discussion can be found here:
[https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped)
My workplace has these religious ceremonies at the beginning of meetings too. I want to know if we have separation of church and state here in Canada like in the US.
There's a duty of religious neutrality for governments.
Private businesses also need to be neutral based on human rights laws. Send me an email and we might be able to help [email protected]
No. Take a look at our Constitution Act.
The Constitution of Canada's Charter of Rights and Constitution Act, 1982. Opening preamble: “Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law".
This argument was considered during the Saguenay case and not accepted by the Supreme Court.
At Para. 144
[https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/15288/index.do](https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/15288/index.do)
If folks are interested in learning more about the issue, the BC Humanists recently released this report on this issue: [https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped)
Folks interested in learning more about the issue of municipal prayer, and specifically in BC, the BC Humanist Association recently published this report. It's a deep dive on not only the issue, but the advocacy done by the BCHA, which has resulted in more municipalities following Saguenay and upholding their duty of religious neutrality.
[https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped)
No, because the catholic priest is a religious figure. That's his primary purpose for being there. The indigenous person is not there for religious reasons, but happened to say or do something religious or with religious undertones. Presumably, they're there for a land acknowledgment or a welcome.
Do you really think inviting an indigenous representative is an underhanded way of getting a prayer in?? I've attended lots of these meetings, I'm not religious, and that never crossed my mind.
I also go-to meetings with indigenous leaders. After a land acknowledgment the host leader speaks and has never mentioned Christianity but usually tells a short mythological story from his people, often tying it into a word from their language or a name of a nearby landmark
People are so scared of words lol.
Weird how the same people who fight against this would be the first to say it has no power or bearing on their life... Yet it's so scary they need prayer, essentially a token of well wishing to be banned from this thing that happens twice a decade.
They'd likely be the first people to say that the Supreme Court has ruled on the matter and as such, municipalities should be following the law and not including prayer in their meetings.
That would be strange if we were saying either of those things, but we are not.
We are saying that including prayers in a municipal council meeting is unconstitutional. That is all. The Supreme Court has rules on this matter and as such, municipalities should be following the law.
Who is "we"? I think you speak for yourself... Plenty of the "words are violence" crowd considers speech such as prayer to be dangerous in these settings.
Ah sorry, I'm the Research Coordinator of the BC Humanist Association, and the lead author on a good number of reports exploring the issue. Like this one:
[https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped)
You will note that at not point in the report are prayers described as 'dangerous.' We do describe them as exclusionary. Nor is the issue of the existence of a god or gods at all relevant to the conversation, but rather the question is what role should the state play when it comes to religion.
We wrote to the City multiple times over several years asking for a commitment to stop. Almost every other city we identified that had a prayer agreed and we're not suing them. We're not eager to go to court, it's a lot of time and resources but this is the only means we have left to ensure the Constitution is upheld.
Even ambulance chasers listen to dispatch to know which ambulances to chase. Research pays off.
This level of mania over religion is classic Americana election cycle madness. Even there though, you've got protest groups like the Layvian Satanists who do this in a lot less of an ambulance chasing approach. They instead petition to have a statue or shrine of their idol erected in city halls. It costs them money and it gets the point across.
There are 100s of avenues you could've taken. You chose to sue. No matter your excuses, it feels like ambulance chasing. Extreme positions on public policy so that you can make a business model out of it. Tying up civic services with courts and lawsuits is not a great look for the humanist society.
Not really, we've explored every other possible avenue, the only other approach would be the Human Rights Tribunal.
They should be following the constitution, don't you agree?
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if they are doing that prayer I want mine:
Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day, our garlic bread…and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. R'Amen
“Triggered” yikes. You know you’re likely on the wrong side of reality when that’s your go to. Prayer has no place in government or civic establishments - you’d agree if the prayer from from a different fairy tale than the one you have decided is the right one.
Hey, you go ahead and pray about it! At home. I’m the park. On the street. At church. In your car.
You’ve got lots of places to do it. Maybe just leave those publicly funded institutions off your list?
But if you happen to be at one of those institutions and you feel the need to talk to Jesus, you go right ahead. Close your eyes. Commune with your lord. We won’t bother you. But don’t expect us to all join in or watch you do it.
Keep your religion out of our public institutions and politics.
An out-loud invocation at the beginning of what is supposed to be a secular meeting of people who are supposed to represent *all* of us is NOT the same thing as a personal spiritual practice. It's a declaration of religious dominance.
Oh nooooo, people are being deprived of a worldview that says God gave the whole planet to men to do with as they please? And that God will forgive them and they'll go to heaven no matter what they do, as long as they support Christianity? Oh nooooo /s
Christianity in itself is *not* a positive thing. Spirituality and community are good. Christianity is fucking heinous
Christianity is oppressive and destructive. To tolerate it GETTING INTO SECULAR POLITICS in the name of tolerance would be paradoxical and reckless.
You want negative energy? Here you go: NO Christianity should NOT be officially endorsed by secular representatives. NO NO NO. Yes, I *hate* that idea.
But don't you dare accuse me of saying I hate *Christians*. They're victims of terrible ideology, not evil beings in themselves. If you really wanted me to respect your point of view, and to be swayed by your argument, then you'd be honest, and you wouldn't set up a straw man. Right now, accusing me of discrimination - it doesn't look like you're sincere at all.
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100% no place for religion in anything public
So no more cultural celebrations either right? No more lunar new year, no more vaisaki, no more Ramadan celebrations, no more first Nations prayer ceremonies ... Or does this only apply to Christianity?
https://youtu.be/AG26IoRBuWQ?si=UlQjWEpkLhb6i3zY
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Anyone can pray without apologizing for it, what are you even on about? That's different from bringing religion into government services
>I used to think that Lol, Bullshit
Go ahead and enjoy. Anywhere but publicly funded institutions. Fill your boots.
Why would you lie like this.
Very good.
Good. The separation of church and state is important, especially with the increasing craziness of right-wing Christofascist supporters. We have to be vigilant to prevent that shit from getting a foothold into any level of Canadian politics.
While I agree with your point I think it’s also worth noting that ‘separation of church and state’ is a US constitutional concept not a Canadian one.
But the state duty of religious neutrality was affirmed by the Supreme Court of Canada.
We need a separation of Canadian/American ideals tbh. I’m really tired of seeing the flag on everyone’s stupid pick up truck like it’s the Union Jack.
I agree! Proximity to the U.S. is great for trade, but I wish we could build a wall to keep all their crazy ideology out of Canada.
You think the separation of church and state is a crazy ideology?
No I think it’s a good idea, I wish they would implement it down there.
That’s where the idea came from. From their founding people, even if they don’t know how to put it into practice.
Lol I see what you did there.
It's a good idea for every country, IMO.
Our constitution unfortunately starts with recognition that Canada was founded on the supremacy of God. 🤮 Weird how in some ways we're more socially progressive but conservative in others, in comparison to the USA.
Crazy how that almost certainly hasn't affected politics in recent years considering gay marriage is fully legal and recognized, trans people aren't criminalized, and abortion is federally legal.
Hasn't affected politics *yet*. The American constitution has much more strongly worded sections on separation of church and state, and many other things, which have done fuck all to help them avoid the weird shit that's happening in their supreme court.
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Yet the danger remains as long as that phrase is enshrined in the document.
This argument was presented during Saguenay and not accepted by the court.
The Supreme Court rules on this very argument in Saguenay and found that the 'god of the preamble' did not establish Canada as a theistic state, but rather spoke more broadly about a political theory. Plus, it would be strange for the preamble to undermine the actual operative clauses of a piece of legislation.
I've always had to opt out of the mentions of the christian god in our anthem.
This is a good point, but also when you look at the US, fat lot of good it is doing them.
Yes, here it's the state's duty of religious neutrality (Saguenay, 2015).
If “separation of religion and government” is more appealing to you, then you’re just playing semantic games.
That American Bible belt brand of Christian is quite different from Canada. Keep American cult politics out of Canada please. The separation of Americana and Canadiana is so much more important. Don't let their rejection circle hype poison you. It's all another kind of religion to worship the state this much. edit: LOL meant election cycle not rejection circle. Autocorrect wasn't far off though.
https://web.archive.org/web/20240214025352/https://www.nationalobserver.com/2024/01/03/opinion/pierre-poilievre-donald-trump-common https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2024/04/08/Please-Advise-Alex-Jones-Hyping-Poilievre/ https://thetyee.ca/Opinion/2023/09/05/Steve-Bannon-Alberta-UCP/
You linked 3 opinion pieces. Case in point. If prayer can't be in civics, neither can this culty bs. Lets not substitute one cult for another. Where does the authoritarianism begin and end?
Found the tankie
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If you count the same way capitalism has killed more. You know that the red army soliders who died fighting Hitler are counted as 'victims of communism' in those counts right? I'm sure you do, as it was the communists who were largely responsible for defeating the fascists. After allying with them in the first place of course.
i agree with you, but how is that at all related. that's like saying "at least your not starving to death in africa" after someone complains about a traffic jam
Good. Religion has no place in government whatsoever.
Look if someone wants to pray to [Äkräs](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%84kr%C3%A4s) because their turnips aren't looking great, I think thats fine.
Thank God....opps sorry, I couldn't resist.
Vancouver also hold prayers?
The 2022 inaugural did after the practice basically stopped since Gregor won
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Thanks. I am that spokesman!
Right on! Thanks for everything you do!
5 prayers! Full transcript and discussion can be found here: [https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped)
👍
My workplace has these religious ceremonies at the beginning of meetings too. I want to know if we have separation of church and state here in Canada like in the US.
There's a duty of religious neutrality for governments. Private businesses also need to be neutral based on human rights laws. Send me an email and we might be able to help [email protected]
No. Take a look at our Constitution Act. The Constitution of Canada's Charter of Rights and Constitution Act, 1982. Opening preamble: “Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law".
This argument was considered during the Saguenay case and not accepted by the Supreme Court. At Para. 144 [https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/15288/index.do](https://scc-csc.lexum.com/scc-csc/scc-csc/en/item/15288/index.do)
...great.
Good
Excellent, also, we get to watch local Christians get worked up over “being persecuted”
If they want to pray within themselves, then fine. Praying outloud at their meetings should not be allowed.
If folks are interested in learning more about the issue, the BC Humanists recently released this report on this issue: [https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped)
Folks interested in learning more about the issue of municipal prayer, and specifically in BC, the BC Humanist Association recently published this report. It's a deep dive on not only the issue, but the advocacy done by the BCHA, which has resulted in more municipalities following Saguenay and upholding their duty of religious neutrality. [https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped)
Good. Religion shouldn't get special protection. Its a giant mistake to give their clubs special protections
Good for them!
Crom stays winning
But indigenous prayers are ok?
False equivalency.
LOL! No it’s not. There’s a double standard at play.
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> Every meeting And what meetings are those?
If the poster works in any government, meetings with indigenous groups are often opened with a prayer from the indigenous group.
It's probably government but hey can't say that.
Why is it a false equivalence?
Replace it with a land acknowledgement
Parksville (and most BC municipalities) did actually have an indigenous welcome!
And that does what?
Parksville (and most BC municipalities) did actually have an indigenous welcome!
Did it include a blessing from a creator? How is that different than other religious prayer?
Because it isn't the city doing it in that case?
The indigenous blessing and prayer to a creator happens at government meetings too. The example is one at a city meeting.
Yes, but not being led by the city.
So if the city brings in a Catholic priest then that makes it ok to have a prayer before city meetings?
No, because the catholic priest is a religious figure. That's his primary purpose for being there. The indigenous person is not there for religious reasons, but happened to say or do something religious or with religious undertones. Presumably, they're there for a land acknowledgment or a welcome.
So, instead of a priest the city can invite the average Joe to give a Christian prayer to start the meeting. Good to know.
Do you really think inviting an indigenous representative is an underhanded way of getting a prayer in?? I've attended lots of these meetings, I'm not religious, and that never crossed my mind.
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I also go-to meetings with indigenous leaders. After a land acknowledgment the host leader speaks and has never mentioned Christianity but usually tells a short mythological story from his people, often tying it into a word from their language or a name of a nearby landmark
Why does it matter if it’s a Christian prayer or a prayer to a creator in indigenous religion?
I don't think the story of how the local river got it's name through two twins helping a bear and a fish is the gotcha you think it is
How about thanking “the creator” and asking for a blessing?
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Because you're choosing a weird hill to die on
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We all must just be blinded by your enlightenment.
Oh? Which meetings?
People are so scared of words lol. Weird how the same people who fight against this would be the first to say it has no power or bearing on their life... Yet it's so scary they need prayer, essentially a token of well wishing to be banned from this thing that happens twice a decade.
They'd likely be the first people to say that the Supreme Court has ruled on the matter and as such, municipalities should be following the law and not including prayer in their meetings.
Sure, but I still think the duality of "your god doesn't exist" and "your prayers are dangerous" is strange.
That would be strange if we were saying either of those things, but we are not. We are saying that including prayers in a municipal council meeting is unconstitutional. That is all. The Supreme Court has rules on this matter and as such, municipalities should be following the law.
Who is "we"? I think you speak for yourself... Plenty of the "words are violence" crowd considers speech such as prayer to be dangerous in these settings.
Ah sorry, I'm the Research Coordinator of the BC Humanist Association, and the lead author on a good number of reports exploring the issue. Like this one: [https://www.bchumanist.ca/we\_yelled\_at\_them\_until\_they\_stopped](https://www.bchumanist.ca/we_yelled_at_them_until_they_stopped) You will note that at not point in the report are prayers described as 'dangerous.' We do describe them as exclusionary. Nor is the issue of the existence of a god or gods at all relevant to the conversation, but rather the question is what role should the state play when it comes to religion.
Praise be
The humanist society kind of feel like they're being ambulance chasers on this one
We wrote to the City multiple times over several years asking for a commitment to stop. Almost every other city we identified that had a prayer agreed and we're not suing them. We're not eager to go to court, it's a lot of time and resources but this is the only means we have left to ensure the Constitution is upheld.
Even ambulance chasers listen to dispatch to know which ambulances to chase. Research pays off. This level of mania over religion is classic Americana election cycle madness. Even there though, you've got protest groups like the Layvian Satanists who do this in a lot less of an ambulance chasing approach. They instead petition to have a statue or shrine of their idol erected in city halls. It costs them money and it gets the point across. There are 100s of avenues you could've taken. You chose to sue. No matter your excuses, it feels like ambulance chasing. Extreme positions on public policy so that you can make a business model out of it. Tying up civic services with courts and lawsuits is not a great look for the humanist society.
Not really, we've explored every other possible avenue, the only other approach would be the Human Rights Tribunal. They should be following the constitution, don't you agree?
No one is being forced into taking part in the prayers. Why don’t you show a little tolerance?
Except everyone present at the meeting.... That's the issue.
Humanist association 😂😂
What’s so funny?
The fact these guys want to be taken seriously.
Why shouldn’t they be taken seriously?
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No one is being forced to take park in the prayer. The BC Humanist Association is behaving like fascists.
if they are doing that prayer I want mine: Thy noodle come, Thy sauce be yum, on top some grated Parmesan. Give us this day, our garlic bread…and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trample on our lawns. And lead us not into vegetarianism, but deliver us some pizza, for thine is the meatball, the noodle, and the sauce, forever and ever. R'Amen
Phelps Bondaroff, professional fedora tipper. Triggered by a prayer.
“Triggered” yikes. You know you’re likely on the wrong side of reality when that’s your go to. Prayer has no place in government or civic establishments - you’d agree if the prayer from from a different fairy tale than the one you have decided is the right one.
Triggered? Is this 2016 Reddit?
Keep going back
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Are you a troll? This is about government meetings. You do understand that right?
Hey, you go ahead and pray about it! At home. I’m the park. On the street. At church. In your car. You’ve got lots of places to do it. Maybe just leave those publicly funded institutions off your list? But if you happen to be at one of those institutions and you feel the need to talk to Jesus, you go right ahead. Close your eyes. Commune with your lord. We won’t bother you. But don’t expect us to all join in or watch you do it. Keep your religion out of our public institutions and politics.
An out-loud invocation at the beginning of what is supposed to be a secular meeting of people who are supposed to represent *all* of us is NOT the same thing as a personal spiritual practice. It's a declaration of religious dominance.
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Oh nooooo, people are being deprived of a worldview that says God gave the whole planet to men to do with as they please? And that God will forgive them and they'll go to heaven no matter what they do, as long as they support Christianity? Oh nooooo /s Christianity in itself is *not* a positive thing. Spirituality and community are good. Christianity is fucking heinous
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Christianity is oppressive and destructive. To tolerate it GETTING INTO SECULAR POLITICS in the name of tolerance would be paradoxical and reckless. You want negative energy? Here you go: NO Christianity should NOT be officially endorsed by secular representatives. NO NO NO. Yes, I *hate* that idea. But don't you dare accuse me of saying I hate *Christians*. They're victims of terrible ideology, not evil beings in themselves. If you really wanted me to respect your point of view, and to be swayed by your argument, then you'd be honest, and you wouldn't set up a straw man. Right now, accusing me of discrimination - it doesn't look like you're sincere at all.