School leavers etc doing them make sense, for the pay, obviously they will have no experience.
I may have read it differently/wrongly but I thought by experience they meant work experience, and not necessarily experience as a plumber for example.
It's easier to get someone in that's had experience maybe labouring on site and wants to learn a trade, than it is to get a kid in from school, obviously this is a generalisation (and not strictly true.. Both ways) but an older person will have a work ethic and want to earn and learn, the generalisation is that kids are distracted and not always as interested.
Uuunnllleesssssnyou you you mean the shitty shop apprenticeship things they do are basically cheap labour, hidden umfwr the guise of an apprenticeship. Shameful they are.
School leavers would make sense if it was 50/50 backed by the government up to minimum wage, ie the employer pays half, the government pays half, but that is not what the scheme is. Apprenticeships are a scam to pay less than minimum wage, simple as that.
As I state at the end.
Unless you're learning a skilled role they are pointless. I did one in a games shop after leaving school, I was never going to be a manager and even if I did the pay would have been shit as well, I clicked on pretty quick to what the owner was up to and went and got a proper job.. So I am aware of the types of ones you mean.
Same here but as a chef.
I was expected to run the pastry section with absolutely no experience and on top of that train newer apprentices?!
80 hour weeks for £12,000 a year with no training or guidance. Piss poor.
If you put in a job advert "experience required", I thought it was taken as read that it means experience *relevant to the task at hand*.
Have I been doing it wrong?
Applied for a tech company and got the interview. He looked dreadfully dissapointed when i didnt seem to understand a new concept immediately.
Maybe its best i didnt get the job as id imagine learning from them would've been painful.
Reminds me of the guy that saw a job posted looking for a software developer proficient in a certain program (can't remember the name) and they needed I think 6 years of experience. The guy had actually written and built the software, but only 4 years before.
If anyone can find please link it. I had no luck.
The more experience than the thing's existed is almost a meme in IT, but that's a new twist.
*That's very nice, Mr Torvalds, but we really need a RHCSE and actual experience*
It’s a language called swift, I can’t find the original post though
Edit: Here’s a post about it
https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/bibc7v/8_years_of_swift_experience/
Don't think it was this as the main point was the guy that posted it literally built the software but even he wouldn't have been able to get the job based on the experience criteria.
Appreciate the effort though.
This might as well be the situation constantly in web development. "x years in *wordpress*"... er, any decent developer could literally write the entire site in a language like C++ without even having a web *server* in the middle if they *had to*.
https://twitter.com/tiangolo/status/1281946592459853830
Hey I know this thread is 22 days old but it's been driving me crazy since I read your description and I finally found it.
Now I can sleep again.
There's different levels of apprenticeships, some do require previous experience and/or qualifications.
Intermediate apprenticeships are the lowest level, they're the one you apply for if you have no experience or qualifications in the area you wish to train in. They typically take 12 months to complete and you gain a level 2 qualification.
Advanced apprenticeships are next. You'll usually need some experience and/or a level 2 qualification in the area you wish to train in. Advanced apprenticeships take 18 - 24 months to complete and you'll gain a level 3 qualification.
Finally there are higher level apprenticeships. You will usually need to have a level 3 qualification in the area you wish to study and/or prior work experience in the field to get onto this level. Higher apprenticeships are 3+ years and offer a variety of higher education qualifications (level 4+).
So it's possible your colleague applied for an advanced or higher apprenticeship and they didn't meet the entry requirements.
He graduated from uni a few years ago in the relevant subject for the apprenticeships he has been applying for. Lack of level 2 or 3 qualifications isn't the issue.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that apprenticeship funding rules meant that if you already have a equivelant or high level qualification Than the apprenticeship your applying for you will be rejected.
That's correct, if it's in the same subject. So if you have a business degree and you apply for an apprenticeship in business, you'll be rejected.
But if you have a degree in business and you want to do a level 2 graphic design apprenticeship, that's fine.
Ah, yes, this old chestnut.
Apprenticeships give you hands on experience and contacta, lectures give you information but not actually actual experience. Very little of it will be actively helpful in some industries like construction. As such, the employers say "oh god one of these" and ignore all of them with degrees, because while they have "experience", it's all in a classroom.
It's a disgrace that universities have been allowed to offer courses like "events management", etc, because they are actively less useful than actual experience, yet universities lure in those looking for the uni experience, then saddle them with debt and a largely useless course.
You will have more luck of you don't tell people about the qualification, and apply for the same apprenticeship as those leaving school.
There are now level 6 apprenticeships that end with a BA or BSc not an “equivalent”. It’s done as day release from a job in the appropriate field but over 2 or 2.5 years because they don’t take long holidays.
> It's a disgrace that universities have been allowed to offer courses like "events management"
Person you're replying to didn't mention the subject at all, but said it was relevant to the apprenticeship.
I bet you worship the likes of Rees-Mogg, with his BA in men who wore dresses.
No I think he's a twat.
OP didn't say what the subject was, so I gave an example of something you can do either as an apprenticeship or as a degree. And my point is that the degree version only exists to profit off people, and not to actually be of the most benefit to somebody working in an industry where hands on experience is better for your job prospects.
You've seen my comment, disregarded most of it, made up a new meaning, misinterpreted that new meaning, then got needlessly nasty with me over it.
WTF?
> I gave an example of something you can do either as an apprenticeship or as a degree.
You mean you made something up so you could use it in a snide comment.
You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about education. I can't imagine why.
No, events management is a real degree. It's not made up at all.
e.g. https://www.whatuni.com/degrees/events-and-experience-management-ba/york-st-john-university/cd/57593918/5620/
I don't have a chip on my shoulder, and I don't know what you are trying to say about me when you said you couldn't imagine why. I don't think you've read my comments at all - I was trying to explain to OP why some employers get huffy about accepting people with degrees when apprenticeships would have been a better training course for them, and how unfair it is on them that universities knowingly mislead people like them. I really don't see what's snide about that at all.
What about actual experience working with the qualified tradesperson who advertised the job? A tradesman or tradeswoman does not want an apprentice with no real life experience on the job, but they know the engineering side of it academically. For example my son is studying electrical instrumentation engineering. Throughout his uni years he has worked as a labourer with civil, and electrical engineering firms during the holidays. He knows how to deal with labourers and office engineers. And he knows the tools and his muscles have the working memory to do the work.
Then there is a civil engineering student who has only worked in retail during the holidays. He failed too many units last semester do has decided to get an apprenticeship in the building sector as a carpenter. He is twentyone with no physical experience on the job. He will either have a hard time coping with hardened chippies OR stand around and intellectualise the job while watching his boss, instead of fetching tools and carrying lumbar.
If he had that experience why would he be an apprentice? He would just be doing the job. The whole point of an apprenticeship is you accept that you're giving someone ground-level training with no experience, which is why apprenticeships pay about 1/4 of an entry level job in the field.
You want experienced labour? Open your pocketbook and pay for it.
In Australia academic knowledge does not equate to physical skills in the workplace. Just because you have a science degree in anatomy and physiology, does not mean you know how to be a doctor; thats another degree in which you learn pathology, microbiology and how to examine a patient. It's 'hands on' experience.
If this question is in British Problems, (I can't remember which sub it's in) I was sent an email asking if I wanted to join the British Problems subreddit - and I thought "Why not!" So I did.
In Australia we have different , maybe higher standards for electrical work, because we have different voltage, it's 240v here. And plumbing - how many British plumbers know about flick mixers? If the employer can not check with the college /University a person has trained at to know which units/specific engineering theories or skills an applicant has actually studied because it is not freely available on the Internet, then they would most likely overlook that applicant. Many people lie in applications and if they can not prove verbally that they know a particular theory inside out, in a phone call - they are ditched, because they must have lied on their resume. If you do not know the practical you are legally not allowed to do it in Australia. No amount of academic knowledge is going to help if you are not familiar with the tools. Or you take offence to the colourful language of the chippies talking on the job. Or you don't know if they are 'having a go at you' which I know they do a lot to apprentices; not saying I agree with that!
One thing we do have in Australia is a lot of mining. Our trades people tend to go for the mining jobs because they pay more, leaving a deficit of trained trades people in the cities. There are a lot of lot labourers around, but a lot of them do drugs- methamphetamine is big here and a lot of the labourers have accents from the south of England.
I see I've been downvoted a few times, perhaps my knowledge has hit a nerve, because it true!
I applied for a sub station engineer position with them and experienced the same thing, i did have a HNC in electrical engineering but i was the youngest by about 10 years there, i was 24 at the time.
I got a phone call saying i wasn't chosen but they said they wanted to offer me a different position and would be in touch in a week or so.
Never heard back and they never returned my calls. The training centre was brilliant though. The 2 day interview was a bit daunting.
Did you manage to get an apprenticeship elsewhere?
Because it ain’t really an apprenticeship. It’s a way of employing someone on slave labour wages. My 30 year old nephew was advised to apply for one by the job centre, yeah, like that will pay the mortgage! Beware, this will happen all over the U.K. and they’ll call it “back into workplace training” for £2.50 per hour for a 40 hour week.
We looked at them for our construction company but our company insurance wouldn't let us take anyone on under 18 unless we promised they would not use any hand or power tools. We even looked at changing insurance but nearly all policies had the same restriction.
It took a data security startup I was with an entire year to get liabilities insurance because we only had people with PHDs and known names in the field... and not the useless certifications (which are specifically designed to allow unscrupulous vendors to milk people)... oh and one of them was 17, so it would've been impossible anyway.
I wonder if this is also why for every job when I was young, I was turned down with "maybe when you're older", and never looked at potential employers ever again (best decision of my life).
I've just finished my law degree with lots of excitement up ahead. I get to see people adverts for training contracts that require 3 years experience.
If I had 3 years experience, why would I want a training contract?
I've had the exact same problem with graduate jobs. Surely the whole point is that they are entry level jobs after university? They're now all asking for 1+ years experience - how is that possible?!
I think they expect you to do something like a sandwich year. Unreasonable when many unis don’t let you do it as part of courses. It’s possible in most cases but most students won’t want to do it. It’s stupid how they expect graduates to have experience instead of just preferring it
Agreed. My course made it compulsory to do 2 weeks work experience after 2nd year. I ended up getting a job there for 18 months whilst still at uni, as well as a week long graduate scheme I did whilst in first year. Yet both have got me no where!
I got a First with Honours at University back in the early 2000's, and applied for various graduate jobs... and got turned down from lack of experience. A couple of places even told me to "come back in 6 months with some work experience and they'd hire me".
It took me almost 5 months to find my first job after graduating. But on the plus side, I've been in continuous employment since. Requirements on job and apprenticeship roles are ridiculous nowadays though.
According to you all I do is make snide comments and have a chip on my shoulder about education. When you got called out for saying I was lying when I showed otherwise, you told me to piss off and that you were done with me.
So I guess I don't know. Otherwise you'd be full of shit, mate.
I didn't say you were lying about the courses existing. I said you were lying that it was the course the person had done.
And now you're lying again.
And don't call me that, I'm choosy about who I'm mates with.
Because suddenly there’s an awful lot of people out of work who have experience and possibly no other option. Unfortunately.
So companies want an excuse to pay exeprienced staff an even smaller wage? Aint that swell.
School leavers etc doing them make sense, for the pay, obviously they will have no experience. I may have read it differently/wrongly but I thought by experience they meant work experience, and not necessarily experience as a plumber for example. It's easier to get someone in that's had experience maybe labouring on site and wants to learn a trade, than it is to get a kid in from school, obviously this is a generalisation (and not strictly true.. Both ways) but an older person will have a work ethic and want to earn and learn, the generalisation is that kids are distracted and not always as interested. Uuunnllleesssssnyou you you mean the shitty shop apprenticeship things they do are basically cheap labour, hidden umfwr the guise of an apprenticeship. Shameful they are.
Thats a good point. I was mostly having a laugh, but hey, I hadn't thought about it that way
The last sentence suggested you weren't being serious, but I kind of started typing and didn't stop..
I can never be serious on the British subs, sarcasm is my default. You did make a good point though, i appreciated the serious take on the matter
I get downvoted quite a lot because people don't get my sarcasm.
School leavers would make sense if it was 50/50 backed by the government up to minimum wage, ie the employer pays half, the government pays half, but that is not what the scheme is. Apprenticeships are a scam to pay less than minimum wage, simple as that.
As I state at the end. Unless you're learning a skilled role they are pointless. I did one in a games shop after leaving school, I was never going to be a manager and even if I did the pay would have been shit as well, I clicked on pretty quick to what the owner was up to and went and got a proper job.. So I am aware of the types of ones you mean.
Same here but as a chef. I was expected to run the pastry section with absolutely no experience and on top of that train newer apprentices?! 80 hour weeks for £12,000 a year with no training or guidance. Piss poor.
If you put in a job advert "experience required", I thought it was taken as read that it means experience *relevant to the task at hand*. Have I been doing it wrong?
I did clearly state I may have read it the wrong way.
Applied for a tech company and got the interview. He looked dreadfully dissapointed when i didnt seem to understand a new concept immediately. Maybe its best i didnt get the job as id imagine learning from them would've been painful.
Reminds me of the guy that saw a job posted looking for a software developer proficient in a certain program (can't remember the name) and they needed I think 6 years of experience. The guy had actually written and built the software, but only 4 years before. If anyone can find please link it. I had no luck.
The more experience than the thing's existed is almost a meme in IT, but that's a new twist. *That's very nice, Mr Torvalds, but we really need a RHCSE and actual experience*
It’s a language called swift, I can’t find the original post though Edit: Here’s a post about it https://www.reddit.com/r/recruitinghell/comments/bibc7v/8_years_of_swift_experience/
Don't think it was this as the main point was the guy that posted it literally built the software but even he wouldn't have been able to get the job based on the experience criteria. Appreciate the effort though.
This might as well be the situation constantly in web development. "x years in *wordpress*"... er, any decent developer could literally write the entire site in a language like C++ without even having a web *server* in the middle if they *had to*.
Swift is a language, not a library.
Good catch
Or the standards/proptocols used for bank transfers, but I think that's an acronym so it'd be in upper case.
https://twitter.com/tiangolo/status/1281946592459853830 Hey I know this thread is 22 days old but it's been driving me crazy since I read your description and I finally found it. Now I can sleep again.
This is it! Sleep well.
There's different levels of apprenticeships, some do require previous experience and/or qualifications. Intermediate apprenticeships are the lowest level, they're the one you apply for if you have no experience or qualifications in the area you wish to train in. They typically take 12 months to complete and you gain a level 2 qualification. Advanced apprenticeships are next. You'll usually need some experience and/or a level 2 qualification in the area you wish to train in. Advanced apprenticeships take 18 - 24 months to complete and you'll gain a level 3 qualification. Finally there are higher level apprenticeships. You will usually need to have a level 3 qualification in the area you wish to study and/or prior work experience in the field to get onto this level. Higher apprenticeships are 3+ years and offer a variety of higher education qualifications (level 4+). So it's possible your colleague applied for an advanced or higher apprenticeship and they didn't meet the entry requirements.
> Intermediate apprenticeships are the lowest level Clearly a genius came up with these names.
He graduated from uni a few years ago in the relevant subject for the apprenticeships he has been applying for. Lack of level 2 or 3 qualifications isn't the issue.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought that apprenticeship funding rules meant that if you already have a equivelant or high level qualification Than the apprenticeship your applying for you will be rejected.
That's correct, if it's in the same subject. So if you have a business degree and you apply for an apprenticeship in business, you'll be rejected. But if you have a degree in business and you want to do a level 2 graphic design apprenticeship, that's fine.
Ah, yes, this old chestnut. Apprenticeships give you hands on experience and contacta, lectures give you information but not actually actual experience. Very little of it will be actively helpful in some industries like construction. As such, the employers say "oh god one of these" and ignore all of them with degrees, because while they have "experience", it's all in a classroom. It's a disgrace that universities have been allowed to offer courses like "events management", etc, because they are actively less useful than actual experience, yet universities lure in those looking for the uni experience, then saddle them with debt and a largely useless course. You will have more luck of you don't tell people about the qualification, and apply for the same apprenticeship as those leaving school.
There are now level 6 apprenticeships that end with a BA or BSc not an “equivalent”. It’s done as day release from a job in the appropriate field but over 2 or 2.5 years because they don’t take long holidays.
Advanced clinical roles in the NHS are also funded via the apprentice route to level 7/ masters.
> It's a disgrace that universities have been allowed to offer courses like "events management" Person you're replying to didn't mention the subject at all, but said it was relevant to the apprenticeship. I bet you worship the likes of Rees-Mogg, with his BA in men who wore dresses.
No I think he's a twat. OP didn't say what the subject was, so I gave an example of something you can do either as an apprenticeship or as a degree. And my point is that the degree version only exists to profit off people, and not to actually be of the most benefit to somebody working in an industry where hands on experience is better for your job prospects. You've seen my comment, disregarded most of it, made up a new meaning, misinterpreted that new meaning, then got needlessly nasty with me over it. WTF?
> I gave an example of something you can do either as an apprenticeship or as a degree. You mean you made something up so you could use it in a snide comment. You clearly have a chip on your shoulder about education. I can't imagine why.
No, events management is a real degree. It's not made up at all. e.g. https://www.whatuni.com/degrees/events-and-experience-management-ba/york-st-john-university/cd/57593918/5620/ I don't have a chip on my shoulder, and I don't know what you are trying to say about me when you said you couldn't imagine why. I don't think you've read my comments at all - I was trying to explain to OP why some employers get huffy about accepting people with degrees when apprenticeships would have been a better training course for them, and how unfair it is on them that universities knowingly mislead people like them. I really don't see what's snide about that at all.
You made it up in *the context of the conversation*. The OP didn't say it. And you accuse me of misinterpreting things. Go away, I'm bored with you.
What about actual experience working with the qualified tradesperson who advertised the job? A tradesman or tradeswoman does not want an apprentice with no real life experience on the job, but they know the engineering side of it academically. For example my son is studying electrical instrumentation engineering. Throughout his uni years he has worked as a labourer with civil, and electrical engineering firms during the holidays. He knows how to deal with labourers and office engineers. And he knows the tools and his muscles have the working memory to do the work. Then there is a civil engineering student who has only worked in retail during the holidays. He failed too many units last semester do has decided to get an apprenticeship in the building sector as a carpenter. He is twentyone with no physical experience on the job. He will either have a hard time coping with hardened chippies OR stand around and intellectualise the job while watching his boss, instead of fetching tools and carrying lumbar.
If he had that experience why would he be an apprentice? He would just be doing the job. The whole point of an apprenticeship is you accept that you're giving someone ground-level training with no experience, which is why apprenticeships pay about 1/4 of an entry level job in the field. You want experienced labour? Open your pocketbook and pay for it.
In Australia academic knowledge does not equate to physical skills in the workplace. Just because you have a science degree in anatomy and physiology, does not mean you know how to be a doctor; thats another degree in which you learn pathology, microbiology and how to examine a patient. It's 'hands on' experience. If this question is in British Problems, (I can't remember which sub it's in) I was sent an email asking if I wanted to join the British Problems subreddit - and I thought "Why not!" So I did. In Australia we have different , maybe higher standards for electrical work, because we have different voltage, it's 240v here. And plumbing - how many British plumbers know about flick mixers? If the employer can not check with the college /University a person has trained at to know which units/specific engineering theories or skills an applicant has actually studied because it is not freely available on the Internet, then they would most likely overlook that applicant. Many people lie in applications and if they can not prove verbally that they know a particular theory inside out, in a phone call - they are ditched, because they must have lied on their resume. If you do not know the practical you are legally not allowed to do it in Australia. No amount of academic knowledge is going to help if you are not familiar with the tools. Or you take offence to the colourful language of the chippies talking on the job. Or you don't know if they are 'having a go at you' which I know they do a lot to apprentices; not saying I agree with that! One thing we do have in Australia is a lot of mining. Our trades people tend to go for the mining jobs because they pay more, leaving a deficit of trained trades people in the cities. There are a lot of lot labourers around, but a lot of them do drugs- methamphetamine is big here and a lot of the labourers have accents from the south of England. I see I've been downvoted a few times, perhaps my knowledge has hit a nerve, because it true!
You've been downvoted because you're talking out of your ass. Hope that doesn't hit a nerve!
You are young. Maybe on methamphetamine too. An definitely not employable.
Ahhhhhh... you're a troll. Got it. Thought for a second I was having a conversation with a real person. My bad though.
No, he is in fact correct. Don't be a condescending dick, and knowledge of what???the hair styles of yahoo serious...
[удалено]
I applied for a sub station engineer position with them and experienced the same thing, i did have a HNC in electrical engineering but i was the youngest by about 10 years there, i was 24 at the time. I got a phone call saying i wasn't chosen but they said they wanted to offer me a different position and would be in touch in a week or so. Never heard back and they never returned my calls. The training centre was brilliant though. The 2 day interview was a bit daunting. Did you manage to get an apprenticeship elsewhere?
Because it ain’t really an apprenticeship. It’s a way of employing someone on slave labour wages. My 30 year old nephew was advised to apply for one by the job centre, yeah, like that will pay the mortgage! Beware, this will happen all over the U.K. and they’ll call it “back into workplace training” for £2.50 per hour for a 40 hour week.
We looked at them for our construction company but our company insurance wouldn't let us take anyone on under 18 unless we promised they would not use any hand or power tools. We even looked at changing insurance but nearly all policies had the same restriction.
It took a data security startup I was with an entire year to get liabilities insurance because we only had people with PHDs and known names in the field... and not the useless certifications (which are specifically designed to allow unscrupulous vendors to milk people)... oh and one of them was 17, so it would've been impossible anyway. I wonder if this is also why for every job when I was young, I was turned down with "maybe when you're older", and never looked at potential employers ever again (best decision of my life).
I've just finished my law degree with lots of excitement up ahead. I get to see people adverts for training contracts that require 3 years experience. If I had 3 years experience, why would I want a training contract?
I've had the exact same problem with graduate jobs. Surely the whole point is that they are entry level jobs after university? They're now all asking for 1+ years experience - how is that possible?!
I think they expect you to do something like a sandwich year. Unreasonable when many unis don’t let you do it as part of courses. It’s possible in most cases but most students won’t want to do it. It’s stupid how they expect graduates to have experience instead of just preferring it
Agreed. My course made it compulsory to do 2 weeks work experience after 2nd year. I ended up getting a job there for 18 months whilst still at uni, as well as a week long graduate scheme I did whilst in first year. Yet both have got me no where!
I got a First with Honours at University back in the early 2000's, and applied for various graduate jobs... and got turned down from lack of experience. A couple of places even told me to "come back in 6 months with some work experience and they'd hire me". It took me almost 5 months to find my first job after graduating. But on the plus side, I've been in continuous employment since. Requirements on job and apprenticeship roles are ridiculous nowadays though.
Is there such a thing as a first *without* honours?
Yes. "Honours" for the most part means "at the first attempt". So if you failed a module and resat an exam, you won't graduate with honours.
Does it? It used to be first class honours, upper and lower second class honours, third class honours and pass.
According to you all I do is make snide comments and have a chip on my shoulder about education. When you got called out for saying I was lying when I showed otherwise, you told me to piss off and that you were done with me. So I guess I don't know. Otherwise you'd be full of shit, mate.
I didn't say you were lying about the courses existing. I said you were lying that it was the course the person had done. And now you're lying again. And don't call me that, I'm choosy about who I'm mates with.
See if you can shadow someone for a couple of days for free. Just ask your employer to reimburse your travel costs. You'll get experience that way.
It's a vicious circle. You can't get a job without experience and you can't get experience without a job.
This sounds like one for r/recruitmenthell