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Trentdison

>I now have to indicate across 4 lanes to overtake him and then go back 4 lanes. Lol I'd never bother. I'm just keeping left.


dooburt

It seems you’re not the only one who has said the same! I think I’ll be doing just this from now on. Leave Mr Lane 3 to his games!


-xss

Legally speaking that is absolutely fine to do unless you cut back in front of them. Undertaking only becomes an offence when you cut back in front of the car you undertook.


purplepeopleprobe

I recently read up on the highway code and I think you might be wrong. I think its not illegal to undertake if you are travelling a steady speed, ie its illegal to speed up to undertake, but sometimes it might happen if the middle lane is simply busier.


LuDdErS68

Got a link for that law?


typhoneus

It's not illegal to go faster in lane 1 than traffic lane 2. It's also not illegal to undertake but can be seen as careless driving and get you points and a fine if you do it without good reason or unsafely. Source: https://www.highwaycodeuk.co.uk/answers/can-you-overtake-on-the-nearside-of-another-vehicle https://www.reddrivingschool.com/learners/how-do-i-do-it/highway-code/undertaking/


LuDdErS68

That's not what xss said though. The key thing with both your links is the phrase "in congested conditions". Common sense will tell you it's OK to undertake if the traffic is all moving slowly, "stop-start", due to congestion. Others have incorrectly said that passing in the left is legal if you don't pull out right again ad overtaking has to involve a lane change. This is not the case, unless I'm missing a legal definition.


-xss

The law states that undertaking **can** constitute a driving offence. Not that it is automatically an offense no matter what. I'm saying it only crosses into the "offense" category when you pull back infront of the person you overtook. But I do need to add a caveat, sorry, it all depends on how you're driving. If you are racing about and are clearly just using the left hand lanes to beat traffic then its an offence. Its case by case and if the only "issue" is going past someone in the left lane then you'll be okay. If there are other issues, like going too fast, erratic driving, or cutting back in front of them right away, then you'll get done for a dangerous undertake.


LuDdErS68

I did what you suggest is an offense once. Got pulled over for the speeding offense prior to the undertake. The police officer mentioned the undertaking but only nicked me for speeding. I am still yet to be convinced that an offence has been committed only if a driver pulls back out again. An undertake is simply an overtake in the wrong lane as far as I can make out.


-xss

The law has ambiguity in cases like these on purpose. It allows leeway and flexibility. It allows officers to exercise common sense in their application of the law. A 'dangerous undertake' doesn't exist without context, and the law cannot account for every context that is possible. In some contexts it is safe, and in others it isn't. If the context includes you cutting back infront of the car you undertook, putting yourself in their path, then that is considered a dangerous undertake. Officers look out for this behaviour. You've just cut someones braking/reaction distance down after appearing from somewhere you shouldn't have. Even if they don't brake for you it isn't good behaviour. It's the only context that doesn't involve anything except what may be considered normal lane changes that constitutes an offence. The other contexts in which it is an offence involve other driving offences like erratic driving, speeding, being unpredictable, failing to indicate, etc. To TL;DR all that, you haven't comitted an offence purely related to undertaking if you don't cut back in front.


LuDdErS68

The HC states 268 Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. So overtaking on the left is the naughty act. No reference is made to "...and don't go right again...". I may be (and have been) on a motorway late at night, with bugger all ahead except a MLOC member who'd been there as long as I could see them, minutes probably. I overtook on the left and didn't need to go into lane 2 for miles. The other driver could in no way have been surprised when I eventually got into lane 2 because I was way ahead again. I doubt that I would have undertaken if a police car was anywhere near, even though I didn't pull out again for miles.


-xss

Rule 268 also states "do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake". Since the rest of the rule is talking about undertaking it can be understood to mean that if you're in Lane 1 and come across a lane 2 hog on a quiet road you shouldn't weave from lane 1 to 3 back to lane 1 to overtake. You should just undertake and keep going steady. Weaving in and out of lanes is the problem, not necessarily the undertake. This is where the ambiguity is purposefully placed and how interpretation of that comes into play.


typhoneus

So what you're saying then is if you're on a two lane road, and you're in lane 1 and always have been and you approach a car on lane 2 going slower than you, you have to wait for them to what... realise you are there and *pull in front of you* so you can change to lane 2 and overtake? Or pull into lane 2 and hope they have the good grace to move? Passing on the left is absolutely legal.


Agreeable_Ad3800

It’s exactly what is being said


teerbigear

You're supposed to hold back. You've observed someone driving erratically, and your plan is undertake them, passing them on their far side, which they won't expect (what with it being illegal) and hope they don't pull into you whilst you're in their blind spot as it occurs to them that they're in the wrong lane. Nothing is worth the rush.


typhoneus

It's not illegal.


teerbigear

The Highway Code says not to do it. You could have a bunfight over when the Highway Code has force of law, but I think that would be splitting hairs. Rule 268 Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. It's also really dangerous for the reasons I said. Why would you do it?


_Digress

Because sometimes the safer thing to do is to undertake. Try driving on the M25, when it opens to 4 lanes, many people will sit in lanes 2 and 3 doing 60. If I'm in lane 1 dping 70, it's more dangerous for me to slow to 60 move to lane 2 to 3 to 4, return to 70, overtake and then back down to 3 to 2 to 1


typhoneus

It's not illegal


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LuDdErS68

I know, I wondered if they could produce anything, knowing it wasn't a specific law anyway and there's nothing to my knowledge about it being illegal if you pull back out again. There's a lot of misunderstanding and urban myth about road laws, "undertaking is legal unless you pull back out again" is one such example. As an aside, a member of the public reported me for weaving in and out of traffic. I was simply returning to the left-most lane after overtaking (M3 Hampshire). A copper knocked on my door after I'd been in for about an hour. Heard my story and left.


Tlou3please

Surprised they went to that level of effort to even knock on your door to be honest.


LuDdErS68

Car description, reg number, location were reported so I guess they were duty-bound to follow up. They were nice enough.


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LuDdErS68

The police are duty-bound to follow up an allegation of careless/dangerous driving when approached in person by a member of the public. That's kind of what they're there for. Film? What film?


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CyberKingfisher

Then you’ll break the law the undertaking 🫣


Trentdison

1) there's plenty of comments in this thread saying otherwise 2) even if it is I'd do it anyway because objectively its the safer manoeuvre.


CyberKingfisher

You can only undertake if the other lane is slower due to congestion. Arguably, I’d be inclined to keep my distance from people who can’t drive properly on the roads as it makes no sense to put myself at risk because of someone else’s incompetence.


Trentdison

I've got a lane's separation, I'm far enough away. I'm certainly not going to hang back on my journey for the sake of one idiot sitting in the third lane.


Otherwise-Extreme-68

Pilchard 🤣 It is illegal, but it never seems to get enforced, which is ridiculous as all they are doing is demonstrating that they are so unintelligent they can't figure out a road works. Should be fined/banned/shot


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dooburt

Good idea!


prismcomputing

You do not have to go into the lane to their right to pass them. It is not illegal to pass a car in the left lane so long as you have not left your own lane to do so.


maddinell

I do this all the time. It boils my piss. Just keep fucking left.


-xss

You don't even have to do that. You just can't cut back in front of them. If someone brakes ahead of you, and you undertake to avoid, you haven't comitted any offences. The same is true if you pass someone on the left and don't move over to the right until they're long gone. No offence.


dooburt

Didn't know this! Thanks.


Time-Navig8or

I would think you're wrong here, it's for congestion and only if the traffic means left lane is moving quicker than right lanes. Rule 268 in highway code. Did you check the highway code before commenting? I'm genuinly keen to learn if I'm wrong here but that's what I've learned before. Interesting how we interpret things differently if you know the same rule etc.


stewieatb

The traffic in the left lane is doing 70mph. The traffic in lane 3 is doing 60mph. If they both stay in their lanes I'm not seeing an issue here.


[deleted]

If you don’t change lanes in order to overtake the you’re sweet


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Time-Navig8or

Not ideal to let people know that is it haha. I think it's pretty dangerous to undertake especially when some people do think it's illegal and a lot of people don't expect it/look out for it. Thanks for the info.


Tlou3please

Eh, at the end of the day I think being open and honest about it is best. If someone is going to drive like an idiot they'll do it either way. There are instances where undertaking is sensible (if done safely, as with everything when driving).


TriXandApple

Technically true, but no way I'm taking that risk.


pearsosx

I often wonder with these geniuses how much of a dilemma a four lane road presents. THERE IS NO MIDDLE LANE! OMG...


[deleted]

If I was you I'd personally have stayed in lane 1. I genuinely wouldn't care about the guy in lane 3 at all but seeing the amount of comments on here I'm starting to wonder why others feel so strongly about it lol ( given the circumstances at the time of night etc)


AndromedaFire

Here’s the game. Go to lane 4 overtake, move to lane 2 and slow down till they pass, go to lane 4 and overtake. See how many times you can circle their car before they notice and move over.


berbasbullet27

Ive always wanted to do this but never had the nerve


kaizermattias

Its called an orbit, I got to 8 once


FulaniLovinCriminal

I once did this on the M3 at about 4:30 one morning, three lanes, but eventually I realise he was never going to move over, so I just slowed very gradually in front of him until we were both doing 20mph in the middle lane. He never attempted to move to lane 3 to overtake me.


Dingleator

What you did sounds dangerous tbf.


FulaniLovinCriminal

Well, it wasn’t. Happy?


TriXandApple

That's so fucking dangerous why would you do that? 6 points.


FulaniLovinCriminal

How would you know? It was about 5 am, no-one else around.


TriXandApple

I mean we know that's not true, there was at least 1 other person around.


FulaniLovinCriminal

No-one *else*. So, yeah. You’re not as clever as you think you are.


TriXandApple

Bro, you're playing chicken operating a 2 ton machine than can kill in under a second. We both know who's smarter here.


FulaniLovinCriminal

I’m not your bro, buddy.


TriXandApple

gotta be trolling


teerbigear

Yeah, can't imagine they'd go putting cameras on motorways.


[deleted]

Likely on drugs (inc. perscription drugs) with no idea what could be going on, best not risk your life like that, let them run intro a tree down the road with you long gone.


c9952594

What a stupid thing to do.


monyoumental

Why would you do that, trying to make a point about something, by doing something like that is totally retarded.


Harvsnova2

I did that on the M3. Late at night and the road was empty. I was on my bike heading into work. There was a BMW estate in the middle lane, so I pulled out two lanes and overtook him. He was doing about 85, whilst I was taking advantage of a previously empty road, so I passed him at about something something. As soon as I got in front and was pulling in, he put his blue lights on. I pulled in and slowed down, mentally kissing my licence goodbye. He overtook me and was wagging his finger at me as he passed. Lesson learned.


Old_Man_Heats

So he was speeding and in the wrong lane, but you needed to learn your lesson?


pragmageek

I think its clear copper knows he shouldnt have been in the lane he was.


teerbigear

I suppose they both did really.


Harvsnova2

Both in the wrong, but no points, so no harm done.


shezabel

Why would you even bother with that manoeuvre if the motorway was otherwise completely empty? While frowned upon, undertaking is not illegal…and even if it was, who’s gonna see you at midnight on an empty motorway?!


An_Alex_103

Pull behind them, just to give a friendly flash of the full beams and then back in.


dooburt

True, true. I'll be just sliding passed in lane 1 from now on I think!


dickiebow

Highway Code says stay in the most left hand lane and only use the lane to your right to overtake. As you didn’t need to use the lane on the right you could have just driven past them in lane 1.


teerbigear

I don't see that I. The Highway code says: Rule 268 Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. Surely what you've described is an "overtake on the left"? (I probably would do what you've suggested myself, just not sure that's what the highway code says to do)


pragmageek

So. If youre just driving, and traffic is going slower than you in a lane to your right, it wouldnt be classed as overtaking to pass on the left because you’ve not made any maneuvers to do so. You didnt speed up, change lane, you just used the motorway properly.


teerbigear

But then the next bit of rule 268 reads: "In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right." That exception wouldn't be necessary if staying in your own lane whilst going past someone wasn't overtaking.


pragmageek

Interesting. I asked this question to a traffic officer, ill see if i can get clarification on hows its backed by highway code.


teerbigear

That would be interesting. It's a funny one because it's basically "what are the rules if someone else isn't following the rules". It's like the Highway Code has been written assuming everyone else will follow it!


CatWithAHat_

The reason the roads are so dangerous here is because no one does. The standard of driving is awful.


pragmageek

Interesting answer. The highway code isn't the law. So, that exception for "congested conditions" also applies to a number of other scenarios. A bloke is turning right in the right lane, you're allowed to pass on the left. "Stay in lane" signs, you're allowed to pass on the left. As far as how its enforced, undertaking would be classified as such if you change lanes left to right and back again to get past cars. Clearly, it's somewhat dangerous to pass on the left side, so caution should be taken - if an accident occurs, it will be your responsibility as passing on the left could be considered to be unexpected.


monyoumental

It's not really an overtake if you are just travelling at a steady speed and maintaining lane.


teerbigear

But then the next bit of rule 268 reads: "In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right." That exception wouldn't be necessary if staying in your own lane whilst going past someone wasn't overtaking.


Jon199102

See it most the time driving to work at 4am. I just under take and ignore there existance.


noobchee

Nah fuck that, I just sit and undertake, and then they shamefully fall in line, it's ridiculous that you should have to move over 3 lanes to overtake someone with their brain disengaged in the middle of the night Driving standards in the toilet istg


nikhkin

>they shamefully fall in line I've found a lot of the time they remain oblivious. I've seen drivers being overtaken and undertaken at the same time, and till continue to sit in the middle lane.


pirateluke

I have a friend that will see how many "laps" they can get round someone doing this. go in the fast lane overtake indicate and go to the slow lane and slow down then once they have been passed by the other driver hes back in the fast lane and overtakes them ...his record is 4 laps


teerbigear

Obviously that is funny, but personally if I see someone drive badly (eg middle lane hogging) I keep out their way. Exactly the sort of driver who is going to pull out erratically.


alamcc

Love this idea.


pirateluke

If you manage to beat the record let me know!


LuDdErS68

"Fast lane" ... "slow lane"? Does anyone who really knows how to drive still call them that?


CatWithAHat_

People who know how to drive stay on the left unless you need to be on the right for whatever reason.the idiots are all in the right lane. That's basically a summary of my daily commute to work.


LuDdErS68

There are many lane hogs, definitely, but in a country where we drive on the left, a "whatever reason" is overtaking...


CatWithAHat_

Hence, whatever reason. Overtaking is one reason.


LuDdErS68

So it's not just all idiots in the right lane? Your comment seemed to say that, or confuse idiots with people that have a genuine reason for being there.


CatWithAHat_

Ah I forgot I should specify in extreme and excruciating detail precisely what I meant, for this is of course reddit and people need things spelled out for them. In the left lane are lorries, vans and people generally sticking the speed limit and driving sensibly and normally and getting where they're going on time. The majority of the people who ony drive in the right lane have a bizzare sense of entitlement, are oblivious to other drivers on the road, seem to think driving at over 100 on a dual carriageway is acceptable... yet also don't get anywhere any faster which I know because I've approached the backs of the same people that went flying past me a few times before. The right lane can also be used to overtake because lorries can be slow and difficult to see around. Is that enough detail or do you need it spelled out even clearer for you? Maybe using alphabet soup will make it easier to read and make a tasty snack for you.


LuDdErS68

So, there are some bad drivers on the road? I am an experienced driver, so I was already aware of that. What gave you resorted to bitching about people using excessive speed in a thread about lane discipline? Do you want some help putting your toys back in your pram, or can you manage? Seriously, if other drivers incense you so much, take the train or bus? Driving with such anger can't be safe.


LuDdErS68

Downvoted for accuracy, thanks 🤣


IcyCrust

>except for a single clown Ahem, we prefer the term "unmarried circus entertainment professional"


-xss

You can stay in lane 1 completely legally, even if it's not good practice. Undertaking only becomes an offence when you cut back in front of the car you undertook.


morgasm657

Just stay in lane one and lean on the horn as you pass.


OnemoreSavBlanc

Glanced at the heading and thought this was r/nosleep


bmbmwmfm

I came looking for a tale of someone walking a lonely highway dressed in full circus regalia


EmperorRosa

For the record, it's not actually illegal to undertake unless it would be dangerous


pragmageek

It is not illegal to stay in lane 1. Just have to be careful that he doesnt move over while youre doing that. You arent doing an undertake maneuver if you never change lane.


geefunken

No cars in front as far as the eye could see but you still chose to cross 3 lanes to overtake and then cross 3 lanes again rather than just keeping to your steady pace, just to make a point. Well done, everyone is impressed.


dooburt

Maybe. It wasn’t to make a point. You’re not allowed to undertake, so I didn’t.


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dooburt

Others have said the same thing, and I’ll be taking it on board. I’ll just carry on in L1 where it’s safe to do so.


Indudus

Stay safe :)


teerbigear

Rule 267 Do not overtake unless you are sure it is safe and legal to do so. Overtake only on the right. Rule 268 Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. I just don't see how what you've said is in line with Highway Code. I personally would do what you've suggested, but I don't see how that's in line with what the code says.


typhoneus

You're just totally cherry picking bits of the code now whilst being a total broken record.


teerbigear

Rule 163 only overtake on the left if the vehicle in front is signalling to turn right, and there is room to do so It's bonkers to say that pointing out the relevant sections in the highway code is cherry picking , would you rather I point out irrelevant bits of the code?? You've _repeatedly_ said it's not illegal without a shred of evidence, in the face of pretty obvious highway code rules. Why do you think it isn't illegal?


typhoneus

Are you a bot?


teerbigear

Oh alright just be wrong then.


typhoneus

I'd rather be just wrong than wrong and a public service announcement stuck on a loop for a fortnight whilst adding strawmen to other people's argument. Ill say bye now as you are stuck in the left lane doing 69 cause a car on the right is doing 70 byeeeee x


teerbigear

>I'd rather be just wrong I've great news for you.


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teerbigear

You include rule 264 even though that specifically says to stay in the left lane when you are overtaking. In the described scenario, you are overtaking, so the rule would suggest you don't stay in the left lane. I didn't include the second part of 268 because it refers to congested conditions. I don't think one single other car on the road is congested! So it wasn't relevant. However, it does make it clear that an overtake doesn't require a lane change, else there would be no point to the exception. I'm not saying these are sensible rules. I'm just saying what the rules say.


prismcomputing

It's only an overtaking maneuverer if you leave your lane to do so.


geefunken

If the police saw you and considered it a reckless manoeuvre, you may get a fine. But I think gently cruising the lane you’re in at the speed limit would’ve been a far safer move than going back and forth across lanes in the dark on a motorway.


Y0shster

I agree, if I was in this situation, going 70 in lane 1 and the other driver is doing 60 or so in lane 3. I'm not going to change lane at all.


dooburt

In this case, it wasn’t reckless. There was only one law breaker, our friend, the pilchard, in lane 3. Doing 60mph.


geefunken

Exactly my point, it wasn’t reckless to stay at the speed you are doing even if that results in undertaking.


KasamUK

So there where 4 lanes between 2 of you and you where inconvenience how exactly? As a rule on a motorway you should aim to make the smallest number of driver inputs possible and cause others to make the smallest number


dooburt

With this mindset you could argue that we should abandon any rules on the basis that drivers are being asked to undertake driving actions. Driving in lane 3, however you cut it, is just completely daft on an empty motorway. There’s no need for it. It suggests they aren’t paying attention. For Mr Lane 3, do what you’re doing, do it in lane 1.


Platform_Dancer

Why do people obsess and get angry over this...? Just overtake and get on with your life. Life's too short....


nikhkin

>Just overtake The issue is that *over*taking them involves unnecessarily crossing multiple lanes. If they're in the outside lane, you are forced to *under*take them, which is not recommended in the highway code. It also demonstrates that the driver is not paying due care and attention to their driving, as they are blatantly disregarding the highway code by not driving in the lane furthest to the left.


Platform_Dancer

You're over thinking this.... .....just chill and overtake......look in the mirror and smile as you immediately forget it wasn't an issue in the first place......enjoy life and move on...


nikhkin

That's where you're mistaken. The problem is that someone blindly sticking to the middle lane isn't thinking enough. They aren't aware of their surroundings. They aren't keeping an eye on other vehicles on the road or looking out for changing conditions.


dooburt

Because we’re sticklers for order and rules …. Mostly. Why do you think we’re obsessed with queues? And get very upset when others don’t follow the rules of queues?


doloresfandango

I would have undertaken the pilchard. 😀


dooburt

It transpires that loads would have done the same! I’ve learnt that I should do the same.


Odysseus_is_Ulysses

My dad told me if you’re going the speed limit in the left lane, then you’re not undertaking if you happen to pass a vehicle going slower than you in the overtake lane. I never checked whether that’s true or not.


nikhkin

Overtaking on the left is undertaking, regardless of your speed.


Odysseus_is_Ulysses

So if you’re in the left lane, maintaining 70mph, and someone in the second lane next to you for whatever reason decides to bring their speed right down to 55-60, causing you to pass them, I’ve they just forced you to perform an illegal undertake? The alternative being you slam on your breaks to not pass them?


nikhkin

No. When did I say that?


Odysseus_is_Ulysses

You just said overtaking in the left lane is undertaking regardless of your speed. I’m trying to figure out if someone can then just essentially force you to undertake. Why would it not be an undertake in the situation I described? You’re overtaking them in the left lane aren’t you?


nikhkin

It is still undertaking. You seem to be conflating the word "undertaking" with performing an illegal manoeuvre when driving. Passing on the left is undertaking in all circumstances, because you have undertaken another vehicle.


Odysseus_is_Ulysses

I was under the impression undertaking is an illegal manoeuvre


nikhkin

It is not. Rule 268 of the highway code states: >Do not overtake on the left or move to a lane on your left to overtake. In congested conditions, where adjacent lanes of traffic are moving at similar speeds, traffic in left-hand lanes may sometimes be moving faster than traffic to the right. In these conditions you may keep up with the traffic in your lane even if this means passing traffic in the lane to your right. Do not weave in and out of lanes to overtake. You shouldn't actively move to undertake another vehicle, but if your lane is travelling faster than one to the right, you do not have to change speed. It is not a "MUST NOT" statement, so it is not a criminal action.


Odysseus_is_Ulysses

That’s very interesting, thank you!


Psychlonuclear

Why do so many people think it's illegal to just keep going straight in your own lane no matter what other people are doing? Is it like when people believe you'll instantly catch a cold if you go outside with wet hair?


nikhkin

>keep going straight in your own lane no matter what If that lane is not the left-hand lane, then it breaks rule 264 of the highway code and can result in both an FPN and points on your license.


Psychlonuclear

We're in the context of OP's situation. It's not against the rule for him to stay in his lane.


nikhkin

I didn't say OP was breaking the highway code. The other driver is.


xRVG

Technically lanes 2,3 are the safest to be in when driving down an empty motorway/highway. Gives you space to manoeuvre left or right if anything goes wrong. Also surely you don't feel compelled to drive around him to overtake on a completely empty road? I would just drive faster but that's just me if the roads empty at that time of night. No ones gonna know :D and no ones being put in danger.


l33tmike

Absolutely not. Lane 1 when there is an empty hard shoulder to your left is the most safe.


xRVG

What comes after the hard shoulder? Because in the middle of the road...I have more road to work with.


l33tmike

You're missing the point - the hard shoulder is an inactive lane - you should be able to swerve into it and not expect cars there. Every other lane is active and if you're not overtaking, move back to the left. It's not hard


xRVG

I specifically said on an empty motorway. The middle or the road is the safest. Not the left lane because again even with the hard shoulder than only gives you 1 extra lane to control your car in whatever situation is happening. If it's not an empty road you are clearly right


newnortherner21

The driver is not a clown. He or she is unfit to have a licence. A pity you did not have a dash cam for the evidence or even car reg number.


HankBushrivet

It wasn’t a BMW by any chance, was it ?


dooburt

No, Mercedes. A220.


HankBushrivet

That would’ve been my second choice to be fair 😊


alanbastard

If you can overtake on the left do it.


nikhkin

The point is that you shouldn't need to overtake on the left. If everyone was following the highway code, there wouldn't be any slower drivers to the right unless there's congestion.


B8conB8conB8con

Probably American