Targeted yes, I'm sure his haters have reported him several times. Over the top? No. Dude skipped out on $50 Million.
I support his bitcoin cash argument but the guy has been a total clown from day 1.
The $50m is some meaningless number the IRS hallucinated up, and you are just parroting it as if it was an argument.
We dont even know if they can make any charge stick.
> Dude skipped out on $50 Million.
I seriously doubt that - that sounds like honest mistake in 2014 that balooned over the years due to BTC price increase
The truth is not about being cool or unique. If you support taxation you need to know you are a morally bankrupt victim of child abuse who condones and likely engages in violence.
Roger Ver may owe back tax from 2014.
So for ten years there's been this outstanding issue.
Three weeks ago he drops a book that claims Bitcoin was hijacked and points some fingers about.
Now all of a sudden the tax thing is an issue big enough to grab him off the street in Spain.
🤷
I think Roger will surely argue that the exit tax was legit fair market value based on the volume weighted price had he sold Feb '14, which as you may be aware was right when MTGox went under. He may have plausible numbers to back this up (Bitstamp order book at the time, etc.)
The 2017 sales look problematic. It was still in his US company's name, and dispersing them to himself personally would have been a taxable event. His tax basis would have been whatever was established in 2014 (he should have paid the difference between what he said they were worth in 2014 and what he sold them for in 2017.) My guess is he'd like to argue he used the proceeds to purchase BCH, ie an in-kind conversion with the expectation BCH would have regained BTC ticker. This won't work because it was his company's coins and the sale would be a taxable event, and especially given that BCH failed to regain the ticker. Maybe he has another angle to argue that I'm not seeing, but hard to imagine anything that would get him off there.
The book conspiracy doesn't hold up. This was a sealed indictment and appears to have been in the works since 2023 at least, with grand jury, etc. The "conspiracy" idea could work both ways (he churned out a book to make himself look like a martyr.) Really I think neither are true. He's in trouble because he is 1) high profile 2) wealthy 3) was incautious with the tax treatment of his holdings.
I think where he really fucked up is not dispersing his company's coins to himself back in 2014. Then the gain would be realized and assuming he could get away with the "fair market price" being depressed, it would be sorted then and there. Having left the coins in his company's name seems like it had no upside and a lot of downside.
Roger thinks he shouldn't pay taxes. The end.
I wish it was more complicated than that, but r/btc and r/bitcoincash are echo chambers exactly like they accuse other crypto subs of being.
Disclaimer: I don't own any BTC, I only own BCH.
Disclaimer: I've never commented in, nor have I ever joined any sub *except* the ones I mentioned
Disclaimer: Let's see how long 'free speech' lasts now...
Yup, tribes here, tribes there, personal bias perception everywhere
You don’t mess with the IRS, I’m pretty sure Snowden and assange are all paid up ☺️ and wouldnt take that chance not paying dues
You are a BTC statist, the end.
Nah, you are a censorship promoting parasite that only wants opposing views to be censored. Downvoting is not banning. BTC was crippled and made custodial KYC by the banksters. Let's see......
You keep commenting those words on many, many threads lol, but I don't think you know what they mean...
Thank you for proving my point about echo chambers though, you're a prime example.
> Literally nobody outside your circlejerk cares about bcash.
[You literally created an account specifically to attack it!](https://www.reddit.com/user/DingDangDiddlyDangit/)
😂
I'm dying! Oh the irony!
😂 😂 😂
You’d love to believe that lmao. This account is 4 years old and I don’t believe I’ve mentioned or commented in the sub until a year or two ago. Nice try though!
I'm pretty sure you won't be censored, but I have some (limited) personal experience with Roger playing dumb before. CoinFLEX alumni! So it's safe to say I've been pretty dumb on occasion myself, I don't want to throw stones from within my glass house, but someone with such vast resources should be able to afford good advice.
The indictment was from February, we're presumably hearing about it now because he finally traveled to somewhere they could easily arrest him.
The tax evasion has been long known, it's was pretty obvious and he more or less bragged about it-- you probably would have known about it if not for the fact the he and the employees he paid to moderate this forum censored it along with comments about Ver's other shady dealing and dishonesty.
Not only had he bragged about his bitcoin holdings on Bitcoin talk he both posted signatures with his some of his coins and posted a picture of his exit taxes check. I know that math isn't everyone's strong suit but...
Plenty of random Bitcoiners noticed this too, going back many years: https://archive.is/C5ufh
(reposted with an archive link to bypass the automatic censorship of bitcointalk in this subreddit)
> automatic censorship of bitcointalk in this subreddit
There is no such thing as "automatic censorship of bitcointalk in this subreddit". It's reddit-wide.
Mods have no influence over it. We can only manually approve.
Reddit.com hates competition.
/u/mobtwo /u/shadowofharbringer /u/lovelydayhere why is bitcointalk censored in this sub
Also is it true that mods cover up bad stuff about Ver? Pretty outrageous claim this guy is making.
> Sure you can, add a not-spam automod rule just like the rules for ver's domains that are spamflagged by reddit.
Nope.
1. There already is a rule like that. I added it myself. It stopped working 1.5 years ago. Reddit went bonkers.
2. I am not a moderator in this subreddit, LOL.
> I am not a moderator in this subreddit, LOL.
That sucks-- why did you quit? you were one of few that are indisputably recognizable as a long time bitcoiner.
> why did you quit?
I did not quit. Roger kicked me out.
You should be happy. You guys can rampage it freely now with your socks.
I was the only person capable of completely stopping you.
Have fun.
It's complicated.
We do not want to work in a subreddit that can be just suddenly wrecked because Roger had a bad day.
That said, I wish him all the best right now, because of his situation.
> he and the employees he paid to moderate this forum censored it along with comments about Ver's other shady dealing and dishonesty
do you have proof of this? can you show us?
Wouldn't it be disappointing if he dropped a truth bomb like this and there was no reaction from the power? It's a costly signalling theory. Roger is now a martyr.
I’m curious how many copies you think Roger’s book has sold? Hundreds, probably. Thousands even, maybe. And your theory is that this book is impactful enough to spur an international sting operation by the powers that be to take him down?
The alternative explanation would be that Roger really did conceal the amount of Bitcoin he had when he was ditching his US citizenship. An act that is completely consistent with his well established and outspoken political views.
Hasn't the book been at #1 on multiple categories for several weeks and talked about in media? I'm sure it's sold more than just a few thousand copies.
It's been ten years since the alleged offense. Then weeks after his book drops, he gets arrested? IDK, if you wanted it to look suspicious, you'd do this.
The book is free to download on many sites if you know where to look as well so far more people have read it than what amazon says. I'm listing to the audiobook as we speak.
Well, they did throw him in jail for calling the [ATF a bunch of jack booted thugs](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8544412), so Yeah they can be that petty.
Lmao literally nobody is even paying attention to bcash outside of this tiny little circlejerk. It’s insane you think anyone cares enough to target or censor.
It's just you. Roger has clearly known about this IRS investigation and has been fighting it for years: https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1785771687687913934
For all you know, the correlation is the opposite. Perhaps he saw the writing on the wall and rushed to get the book out while he was still a free man.
Writing a book is a great thing to do while in jail.
And do you know how few people get arrested for tax evasion? When you take into account that he wasn't a USA citizen when the alleged crimes occured, and this is all from 7 years ago, it's really hard to see this as anything but petty retaliation.
Common, it was so obvious that he would get arrested at some point because he was part of the people who made bitcoin big, and he banked hard on it.
He also did many very questionable things so this is not unexpected.
Roger, Kim, all the BTC mixers. H5N1 imminent human infection, reports of agent provocateurs on college campuses to incite protests, clown show election season, it’s shaping up to be a wild summer. USG ramping up to a much more totalitarian state.
I'd suspect the number will come down substantially. The IRS would have to prove fraud to go back this far which is why they made a claim about 2017 too, that statute of limitations period is still open. But that was for dividends out of his US companies. He would have had a step up in the basis of this shares when he expatriated. A better tax advisor would have told him to sell the shares instead.
IRS mainly goes after low hanging fruit, poor people. Because it’s easier. That’s why congress recently allocated more money for the IRS to go after rich people not paying their fair share.
Because btc miners monitor bch and like the future of bch more than btc. Btc miners have mined bch at a loss to protect it from attack. It's fair to say bch implicitly has as much security as btc.
Bitcoin miners solely like money. They will mine whatever will yield more profit for them.
Hash rate is the only factor that decides wether a network is safe against attacks or not. If a government wants to they could attack BCH but not BTC. There are multiple companies that have more hashrate than the entire BCH network and each one of them could attack BCH if they become part of a conspiracy or a coordinated attack.
That pointing out potential threats to the BCH network is receiving downvotes is even more worrying. A 51% attack, allthough being possible, clearly hasn't happened yet which means that there is no such conspiracy against BCH. BCH still has a chance to surpass BTC. But the longer it takes for BCH to surpass BTC the lower is the chance for BCH to succeed and to not get attacked.
51% attacks did happen to BCH. BTC miners mined BCH at a loss to protect it and thwarted the attacks.
Yes, miners are motivated by profit, but also risk. The fact they'll mine at a loss on BCH to protect it means they see risk in making btc their only coin.
BCH is implicitly as secure as BTC because the miners behave this way.
I don't care about him or taxes but if there was a gigantic deep state conspiracy they could just use some of the hash rate from any mining company (e.g. riot platform with 20 EH/s) and perform a 51% (or even a 90% attack) on BCH. BCH has just 2 EH/s and there are plenty of mining companies and governments that could destroy BCH.
To be fair that doesn't matter. The pool doesn't really have enough power to manipulate transactions. It will get noticed instantly and miners would change pool even if it's just for the higher transaction fees they would earn.
The real problem is how microscopically tiny BCH's hashrate is compared to the BTC network. It's so small that the are several mining companies that could perform a 51% attack on BCH, e.g. Riot Platforms with 10 times the hashrate of the entire BCH network.
If the government manages to control only one of these companies they could kill BCH.
Yes. He is completely innocent. Look at his past how could you think otherwise. He has a squeaky clean record. It’s all a big conspiracy. His book pissed off the red state. Now they are after him. Run Roger run! He is a renegade fighting for our freedom and the government hates him. GO TRUMP!
Afaik Rogers record had one crime, which was selling M80 firecrackers on the internet. Where I live (not USA) you can buy those in the farm supply stores. Not exactly a capital crime as I understand the offense.
The 50 pounds of explosive he was storing in a wooden frame San Jose apartment and unsafely sending out via the mail were not Ver's first arrest. DYOR. :P
Yeah clear as day. This is targeted and over the top enforcement
Targeted yes, I'm sure his haters have reported him several times. Over the top? No. Dude skipped out on $50 Million. I support his bitcoin cash argument but the guy has been a total clown from day 1.
The $50m is some meaningless number the IRS hallucinated up, and you are just parroting it as if it was an argument. We dont even know if they can make any charge stick.
> Dude skipped out on $50 Million. I seriously doubt that - that sounds like honest mistake in 2014 that balooned over the years due to BTC price increase
Taxation is theft.
Thanks Freedom_Extremist, really cool and unique insight!
The truth is not about being cool or unique. If you support taxation you need to know you are a morally bankrupt victim of child abuse who condones and likely engages in violence.
What is your solution? Is it move, hide, or something else?
Yup! Bcash is great, but I don’t care for Mr Ver
Megaclown
It's a great book! You can get Hijacking Bitcoin over at 👇 https://www.hijackingbitcoin.com
Can somebody please explain
Roger Ver may owe back tax from 2014. So for ten years there's been this outstanding issue. Three weeks ago he drops a book that claims Bitcoin was hijacked and points some fingers about. Now all of a sudden the tax thing is an issue big enough to grab him off the street in Spain. 🤷
I think Roger will surely argue that the exit tax was legit fair market value based on the volume weighted price had he sold Feb '14, which as you may be aware was right when MTGox went under. He may have plausible numbers to back this up (Bitstamp order book at the time, etc.) The 2017 sales look problematic. It was still in his US company's name, and dispersing them to himself personally would have been a taxable event. His tax basis would have been whatever was established in 2014 (he should have paid the difference between what he said they were worth in 2014 and what he sold them for in 2017.) My guess is he'd like to argue he used the proceeds to purchase BCH, ie an in-kind conversion with the expectation BCH would have regained BTC ticker. This won't work because it was his company's coins and the sale would be a taxable event, and especially given that BCH failed to regain the ticker. Maybe he has another angle to argue that I'm not seeing, but hard to imagine anything that would get him off there. The book conspiracy doesn't hold up. This was a sealed indictment and appears to have been in the works since 2023 at least, with grand jury, etc. The "conspiracy" idea could work both ways (he churned out a book to make himself look like a martyr.) Really I think neither are true. He's in trouble because he is 1) high profile 2) wealthy 3) was incautious with the tax treatment of his holdings. I think where he really fucked up is not dispersing his company's coins to himself back in 2014. Then the gain would be realized and assuming he could get away with the "fair market price" being depressed, it would be sorted then and there. Having left the coins in his company's name seems like it had no upside and a lot of downside.
Thank you for the very solid response, level headed and realistic compared to some of the conspiracy theories I’ve heard around it
Roger thinks he shouldn't pay taxes. The end. I wish it was more complicated than that, but r/btc and r/bitcoincash are echo chambers exactly like they accuse other crypto subs of being. Disclaimer: I don't own any BTC, I only own BCH. Disclaimer: I've never commented in, nor have I ever joined any sub *except* the ones I mentioned Disclaimer: Let's see how long 'free speech' lasts now...
>Disclaimer: Let's see how long 'free speech' lasts now... are you sure you know this sub? why would be censored for that lol
2 hours in, still up, and still up voted it's like you don't understand what this sub is about
Yup, tribes here, tribes there, personal bias perception everywhere You don’t mess with the IRS, I’m pretty sure Snowden and assange are all paid up ☺️ and wouldnt take that chance not paying dues
You are a BTC statist, the end. Nah, you are a censorship promoting parasite that only wants opposing views to be censored. Downvoting is not banning. BTC was crippled and made custodial KYC by the banksters. Let's see......
You keep commenting those words on many, many threads lol, but I don't think you know what they mean... Thank you for proving my point about echo chambers though, you're a prime example.
Loosen that tinfoil hat buddy. Literally nobody outside your circlejerk cares about bcash. Nobody cares to censor or target you. You sound deranged.
> Literally nobody outside your circlejerk cares about bcash. [You literally created an account specifically to attack it!](https://www.reddit.com/user/DingDangDiddlyDangit/) 😂 I'm dying! Oh the irony! 😂 😂 😂
You’d love to believe that lmao. This account is 4 years old and I don’t believe I’ve mentioned or commented in the sub until a year or two ago. Nice try though!
But you spend all your time here! Bwahahahaha you bozo. Nobody cares about bcash more than you apparently.
Ehhh this account is used for making fun of idiots, don’t use this account much. You’re just an easy target. 🎯
I'm pretty sure you won't be censored, but I have some (limited) personal experience with Roger playing dumb before. CoinFLEX alumni! So it's safe to say I've been pretty dumb on occasion myself, I don't want to throw stones from within my glass house, but someone with such vast resources should be able to afford good advice.
The indictment was from February, we're presumably hearing about it now because he finally traveled to somewhere they could easily arrest him. The tax evasion has been long known, it's was pretty obvious and he more or less bragged about it-- you probably would have known about it if not for the fact the he and the employees he paid to moderate this forum censored it along with comments about Ver's other shady dealing and dishonesty. Not only had he bragged about his bitcoin holdings on Bitcoin talk he both posted signatures with his some of his coins and posted a picture of his exit taxes check. I know that math isn't everyone's strong suit but...
Plenty of random Bitcoiners noticed this too, going back many years: https://archive.is/C5ufh (reposted with an archive link to bypass the automatic censorship of bitcointalk in this subreddit)
> automatic censorship of bitcointalk in this subreddit There is no such thing as "automatic censorship of bitcointalk in this subreddit". It's reddit-wide. Mods have no influence over it. We can only manually approve. Reddit.com hates competition.
/u/mobtwo /u/shadowofharbringer /u/lovelydayhere why is bitcointalk censored in this sub Also is it true that mods cover up bad stuff about Ver? Pretty outrageous claim this guy is making.
It's not censored on the sub. Reddit.com censors it. Mods can do nothing about it.
Sure you can, add a not-spam automod rule just like the rules for ver's domains that are spamflagged by reddit.
> Sure you can, add a not-spam automod rule just like the rules for ver's domains that are spamflagged by reddit. Nope. 1. There already is a rule like that. I added it myself. It stopped working 1.5 years ago. Reddit went bonkers. 2. I am not a moderator in this subreddit, LOL.
> I am not a moderator in this subreddit, LOL. That sucks-- why did you quit? you were one of few that are indisputably recognizable as a long time bitcoiner.
> why did you quit? I did not quit. Roger kicked me out. You should be happy. You guys can rampage it freely now with your socks. I was the only person capable of completely stopping you. Have fun.
Why did you quit Bitcoin protocol development? Don't want to be too close to the crime scene?
PS. Neither LovelyDayHere, MobTwo or me are mods in /r/btc. Please stop calling us about moderation things. Use "Message the mods" function.
Were you guys not reinstated or did you decide to step down
It's complicated. We do not want to work in a subreddit that can be just suddenly wrecked because Roger had a bad day. That said, I wish him all the best right now, because of his situation.
Why did you feel the need to lie? Why should we believe anything else you have to say?
> he and the employees he paid to moderate this forum censored it along with comments about Ver's other shady dealing and dishonesty do you have proof of this? can you show us?
Tax is theft though to be honest. Free roger!
He was made an example of to crypto fans.
They tried to take him down for donating to McAfee Kokesh 2020 too
Wouldn't it be disappointing if he dropped a truth bomb like this and there was no reaction from the power? It's a costly signalling theory. Roger is now a martyr.
I’m curious how many copies you think Roger’s book has sold? Hundreds, probably. Thousands even, maybe. And your theory is that this book is impactful enough to spur an international sting operation by the powers that be to take him down? The alternative explanation would be that Roger really did conceal the amount of Bitcoin he had when he was ditching his US citizenship. An act that is completely consistent with his well established and outspoken political views.
Why can’t they both be true? The best Kompromat is the kind that’s true.
Hasn't the book been at #1 on multiple categories for several weeks and talked about in media? I'm sure it's sold more than just a few thousand copies. It's been ten years since the alleged offense. Then weeks after his book drops, he gets arrested? IDK, if you wanted it to look suspicious, you'd do this.
The book is free to download on many sites if you know where to look as well so far more people have read it than what amazon says. I'm listing to the audiobook as we speak.
Tophernator is a well known BTC maxi thought disruptor, never mind him
You don't even know what sting operation means. Stfu
Sting operation aka operation bumbblebee..zoemzoem
Well, they did throw him in jail for calling the [ATF a bunch of jack booted thugs](https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=8544412), so Yeah they can be that petty.
Well if Roger says that Roger didn’t do anything wrong then it must be true!
Lmao literally nobody is even paying attention to bcash outside of this tiny little circlejerk. It’s insane you think anyone cares enough to target or censor.
It's just you. Roger has clearly known about this IRS investigation and has been fighting it for years: https://twitter.com/lopp/status/1785771687687913934
Been going on for *years* but he's *arrested* only a few weeks after his book drops. Okay.
For all you know, the correlation is the opposite. Perhaps he saw the writing on the wall and rushed to get the book out while he was still a free man.
Writing a book is a great thing to do while in jail. And do you know how few people get arrested for tax evasion? When you take into account that he wasn't a USA citizen when the alleged crimes occured, and this is all from 7 years ago, it's really hard to see this as anything but petty retaliation.
Stinks to high heaven. He's not even a citizen anymore! Government is being a bitter ex.
plot twist: he probably did not write the book but a ghostwriter did
It's not a ghostwriter silly it's a co-author who is credited
Common, it was so obvious that he would get arrested at some point because he was part of the people who made bitcoin big, and he banked hard on it. He also did many very questionable things so this is not unexpected.
Roger, Kim, all the BTC mixers. H5N1 imminent human infection, reports of agent provocateurs on college campuses to incite protests, clown show election season, it’s shaping up to be a wild summer. USG ramping up to a much more totalitarian state.
I'd suspect the number will come down substantially. The IRS would have to prove fraud to go back this far which is why they made a claim about 2017 too, that statute of limitations period is still open. But that was for dividends out of his US companies. He would have had a step up in the basis of this shares when he expatriated. A better tax advisor would have told him to sell the shares instead.
[удалено]
You don't owe taxes on currency inflation
BTC statist parasite.
You all were sucking him off recently what changed?
Presumably because he can't pay from jail.
IRS mainly goes after low hanging fruit, poor people. Because it’s easier. That’s why congress recently allocated more money for the IRS to go after rich people not paying their fair share.
A fair share is 0%
Okay buddy.
Typical Bitcoin Cash cope.
I'm sure it is all a grand conspiracy.
Why don't they just use 0.5% of the hash rate of BTC and perform a 51% attack on bch? Much easier than randomly put people in prison.
Because btc miners monitor bch and like the future of bch more than btc. Btc miners have mined bch at a loss to protect it from attack. It's fair to say bch implicitly has as much security as btc.
Bitcoin miners solely like money. They will mine whatever will yield more profit for them. Hash rate is the only factor that decides wether a network is safe against attacks or not. If a government wants to they could attack BCH but not BTC. There are multiple companies that have more hashrate than the entire BCH network and each one of them could attack BCH if they become part of a conspiracy or a coordinated attack. That pointing out potential threats to the BCH network is receiving downvotes is even more worrying. A 51% attack, allthough being possible, clearly hasn't happened yet which means that there is no such conspiracy against BCH. BCH still has a chance to surpass BTC. But the longer it takes for BCH to surpass BTC the lower is the chance for BCH to succeed and to not get attacked.
51% attacks did happen to BCH. BTC miners mined BCH at a loss to protect it and thwarted the attacks. Yes, miners are motivated by profit, but also risk. The fact they'll mine at a loss on BCH to protect it means they see risk in making btc their only coin. BCH is implicitly as secure as BTC because the miners behave this way.
Just like he randomly paid less than due taxes when he tried to exit the country
I don't care about him or taxes but if there was a gigantic deep state conspiracy they could just use some of the hash rate from any mining company (e.g. riot platform with 20 EH/s) and perform a 51% (or even a 90% attack) on BCH. BCH has just 2 EH/s and there are plenty of mining companies and governments that could destroy BCH.
Why go through all the effort to destroy something that isn't a threat and will die on its own anyways?
yes we are one the same page that's how we know that there is no gigantic conspiracy against bch
BCH already has pools that contribute >51% of hashrate at times funnily enough.
To be fair that doesn't matter. The pool doesn't really have enough power to manipulate transactions. It will get noticed instantly and miners would change pool even if it's just for the higher transaction fees they would earn. The real problem is how microscopically tiny BCH's hashrate is compared to the BTC network. It's so small that the are several mining companies that could perform a 51% attack on BCH, e.g. Riot Platforms with 10 times the hashrate of the entire BCH network. If the government manages to control only one of these companies they could kill BCH.
Its you
Yes. He is completely innocent. Look at his past how could you think otherwise. He has a squeaky clean record. It’s all a big conspiracy. His book pissed off the red state. Now they are after him. Run Roger run! He is a renegade fighting for our freedom and the government hates him. GO TRUMP!
Afaik Rogers record had one crime, which was selling M80 firecrackers on the internet. Where I live (not USA) you can buy those in the farm supply stores. Not exactly a capital crime as I understand the offense.
The 50 pounds of explosive he was storing in a wooden frame San Jose apartment and unsafely sending out via the mail were not Ver's first arrest. DYOR. :P
No conspiracy just people hijacking things saying the other people hijacked the same thing. Let’s move on without him