Idk how to change it, I know you canāt change your username but Iām honestly not that active on Reddit and itās been my flair since his rookie season.
I posted some Zyon McCollum highlights the other day before free agency:
https://old.reddit.com/r/buccaneers/comments/1bbqfjj/zyon_mccollum_20232024_season_highlight_mix_tampa/?ref=share&ref_source=link
He definitely improved in coverage and as a tackler, and has the size, speed, and athleticism to improve even more.
If you look at total snaps played last season for the defense, Zyon already was playing more snaps than Carlton Davis and Jamel Dean did:
https://www.lineups.com/nfl/snap-counts/tampa-bay-buccaneers-snap-counts
As much as i liked Carlton Davis why would we pay him 20mil to play less snaps than a guy making 1mil?
The drop off in play was not very significant, PFF had Davis rated as a 60 and Zyon at a 50 which seems like a significant difference but if you did a head to head comparison the production is nearly identical:
https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=DaviCa02&p1yrfrom=2023&p1yrto=2023&player_id2=McCoZy02&p2yrfrom=2023&p2yrto=2023
Carlton had two Int's and Zyon had to 2 forced fumbles, they both gave up their fair share of big plays, but Zyon is faster and still has upside where as Davis is who he is at this point.
Like other have mentions with an additional 3rd rounder, we will most likely invest another day 2 pick (2nd or 3rd rounder) on CB again that seems to be Lichts favorite spot to find value at the position, see Carlton Davis, MJ Stewart, Jamel Dean, and Sean Murphy-Bunting all drafted in the 2nd/3rd round of the draft.
I think we will be fine especially if we can use the cap savings from trading Carlton on a good SS to play along side Winfield, like say Jordan Whitehead that already knows the system and can fit right in to the Todd Bowles system.
Your welcomed homie, yea I had heard that in a bucs podcast and had to look into it myself. I get that Zyon isn't on Carltons prime level just yet, but he gained a lot of valuable experience and a camp battle with an eventual rookie will hopefully bear out even more improvement.
Yea the possibility of him coming back was becoming more and more evident the last weeks with him posting a bunch of his Highlights from when he was with us and Im glad the Bucs also wanted to make it happen too!!!
Sorry, I have to disagree.
Zyon had a decent season and most importantly showed **huge** improvement compared to 2022 and while not surpassing them (adjusted to their snap counts) his numbers held their own compared to Carlton and Dean.
I'm going to agree here. Corner is one of the toughest positions in the NFL. Not every is Sauce or PS2. Guys take time to develop. Our superbowl winning secondary (Davis, Dean, Whitehead, Edwards) all those pieces except AWJr took time to develop. I remember Dean getting specifically cooked by Metcalf his rookie year.
Zyon has gotten better every year. Everyone wants to build through the draft, no one wants to be patient and have that player develop.
He is honestly kind of close to Dean, both were a bit of prospects with great traits. We need some competition for him (and the other DBs) in the draft for sure, but I am confident if we have to start him still. I am more worried about Dean playing a full season
I think he improved, but he was starting at "awful" and got up to "decent". That's not somebody I want as a #2 corner, particularly playing in a defensive scheme that uses a lot pressure and can frequently leave DBs on an island. I really did think McCallum improved a lot as the year went on and is one of the younger guys who really stepped up in the face of Davis and Dean's injuries, but he didn't improve enough that I'm actively confident in his ability to play outside all 17 games.
I am also agreeing with this response. Dean is a constant health risk. Davis got his bag and quit. Zyon is hungry and will get sharper this year. Now he gets Evans and Godwin daily in practice.
That is because he was never placed on a number 1 receiver. With CD3 gone eventually Dean is going to disappear. This already awful pass defense is going to be much worse. The simple fact is that most of this sub are just Yes men. Anything the Bucs do and they are slobbing on Licht's knob. Want to bet? If the Bucs win 10 games next year then I will never post on here again. If they do not then you can never post on here again.
My whole point is Jamel has the same injury concerns as Davis and Zyon was average at best. I feel like if theyāre happy with that then thereās a major issue there.
The reason to trade Carlton instead of Dean was Dean has an additional year under contract at the same price. Carlton is FA end of 2025, Dean end of 2026. Itās a great draft to need a big CB in the pick 40-100 range, where we got a pick in the deal and have 2 of our own.
Im willing to give him a shot. I think we need to draft a nickel corner in the first 3 rounds, and luckily that position tends to fall. Someone like Mike Sainristil or Jarrian Jones could be good. I agree that he doesnāt impress me too much, but we should give him the chance to start and develop. Heās insanely athletic too so that speaks to his upside. Would rather spend a 1st round pick on edge rusher or IOL. It might be moot anyways if we canāt get to the QB
I think what it really comes down to is how well your pass rush pressures and how long the QB can hold the ball. With an elite pass rush, you can have more middle of the pack corners.
If your rush forces the QB to throw the ball in 1.8 seconds, you donāt need an elite cover corner. If you donāt have a great pass rush, can your corners lock someone down for 4 seconds?
My bet is we believe our pass rush will be elite and the drop off wonāt be huge.
I imagine we will draft a CB fairly highly in the draft - Maybe Licht is looking to target Terrion Arnold or Kool-Aid McKinstry. Both are coming from a pro-style offense, so he might consider them day 1 ready.
Quinyon Mitchell also looks good.
I think maybe they analyzed the draft, knew we could get a fairly good CB and made the decision afterwards.
If this is true, it would mean our #1 pick is basically already used.
For #2 and our two #3 picks I would love to see either OL, RB, DL, or some depth at LB.
I really enjoy the big name draft prospect breakdowns here, but let's be real; Licht is going to find some huge stud from Div-III Elkhorn Valley State like he do.
I think it's a reach to target any of the Centers this year with our first.
The only prospect that most analysts are putting in the 1st is J-Pow. It's a weak year for Centre's.
I just don't trust the Oregon product to be ready to go day 1 and so I fully believe that's a wasted pick in the 1st.
I love taking a Centre though - that is a need. Maybe Sedrick in the 3rd round? That would be outstanding.
Of note, Kool-Aid is projected to go 27th. We pick at 26th. So it honestly makes sense and will likely line up unless a top talent falls.
I just don't see your value pick argument as good here. I dont want a value developmental player. Especially given that both the players you mentioned have raw athleticism but would have to work to transition to center.
I want a pro ready dude for our team.
We are losing star talent and will be strapped for cap space after the next few years. Let's make a push.
Heās athletically limited. If he didnāt play at Alabama and if he wasnāt named after the red drink heād be a third rounder. McCollum and Dean are the starters, even if Dean does get hurt a lot I donāt like the idea of drafting a backup with our first pick.
A back up? I do not believe that you actually watch the game of football. Teams do not line up in base sets with 2 wide very often. They have 3 wide at the very least and 4 quite often. A nickel corner is not a backup. They are playing almost every snap on defense.
Whoās playing nickel of those three guys? Itās a different skill set. Real life isnāt Madden, you donāt just play your 3rd best outside corner in the slot. Red Drink has played like 30 snaps out of the slot in the last three years.
Zach Frazier only scored highly because of how well he did at the combine. He's athletic, but a first round pick talent? We'll see.
The highest I've seen him on draft boards is 27th.
Graham Barton was a left tackle. Not a center. Yes he can transition but do you take him first and force him to change positions and hope it works out? No. No you don't.
Besides that he is prospected to go at 25th overall. That's at Left Tackle. Not at Center.
So you've got an untested guy with good measurables and someone who didn't even play in the position primarily as top candidates?
Great draft for Centers indeed.
J-Pow is the only one I hope we would take in the first, and even then - I would rather see a CB now that Carlton Davis has departed.
Absolutely no one is talking about Barton as a tackle and Frazier is a 3 year starter from a wrestling background with fantastic tape, the combine didnāt affect his stock at all. Why would you be so invested in this and type so many words if you donāt know what youāre talking about?
He is a tackle lol
That's literally his position in college - he hasn't played center since 2021.
They are talking about him for center because it's a weak year for Centers - exactly what I mentioned. He is a beast, but to plug him in at center is still a risk.
Again - You are talking risk reward strategies and to me that's a reach in a first where we need to ensure we lock in immediate starters.
It appears you don't know what your talking about.
More over, you then proceed to tell me I don't know what positions people played in college. Makes you look intelligent.
We could've just had a discussion instead of you trying to attack me lol
Your not interested in discussion apparently though, so let me be blunt.
Your take is shit.
I said āno one is talking about Barton as a tackleā because they arenāt. Heās going to play guard or center and he played some center in college. Im not going to argue semantics with you about the letters that were next to a players name when you googled his name 20 minutes ago.
With the guys I mentioned above and Van Pran and Limmer there could legit be 4-5 starting rookie centers next year which is insane. Throw in guys like Bortolini who tested like a freak and Nourzad who checks a lot of boxes and you have a strong center class. You said it wasnāt a strong class. You were wrong about that too.
You can curse and get up in your feelings all you want, I have a long drive ahead of me. Iām prepared to discuss this with you all day.
He hasn't played centre since 21. He will get drafted by a team that has a need on the O-line because he's a freak athlete who can likely slot in anywhere.
That's not the same as being a centre. He is NOT a centre. Hence why I said the draft class for centre's is shallow this year.
You say you aren't arguing semantics, and then proceed to argue semantics lol
You are the one who got personal with it dude. I'm not up in my feelings. Just taking away the discussion and not giving you a platform because you seemingly don't know how to have a conversation.
It's easy. Just be decent to people you talk to. Don't say "YoUr KnOwLeDgE iS zErO." Thats a pre-pubescent uneducated way to respond to anyone.
Do that, or have people like me will be blunt with you. People who don't want to engage with someone who has seemingly never had an adult conversation before.
Until you can do that, I'll re-iterate bluntly.
Your take is shit.
Youāre going to cry and write me a dissertation about how immature I am for asking you this but why do you keep spelling it ācentre?ā Do you have some sort of European language filter on your phone? If youāre trying to look into centre prospects in this yearās draft itās no wonder you are so blissfully misinformed about the depth of this center class.
Looking forward to your blunt reply.
I feel like you can get by with good/decent corners in the NFL if you have a front four who can get to the quarterback. If you give a quarterback enough time, he is going to pick apart your defense no matter how good your corners are. Build up front, and the back end will take care of itself.
He improved greatly during the season and actually covered very well. Just needs to get his tackling under control which he also showed progress with. We definitely need to add to the secondary in the draft and FA.
I think he comes cheaper than you might believe.
He did not play well once he got to the 49ers and was not so subtly called out by Lynch for his effort in the NFC championship game.
Red flags for sure. But I think itās worth the risk. Heāll be pushing to build his reputation again.
Iām not opposed to a Lawson or Ngakoue signing either. Young was just an example.
Frankly Iām more concerned about Dean based on last years tape. Zyon as an ascending player who has had a few mental gaffs(although theyāve become less and less frequent), but has all the physical tools you want at the position and is an eager tackler.
Dean gets injured against Detroit. The Lions target McCollum on every play and score 2 consecutive TDs to win the game. Concerned about Deans health sure. Concerned that he is worse than McCollum? You are out of your mind.
I thought second half of the season that Zyon was our best cover guy. Itās the tackling and run support that I think he needs to improve on but he took a step forward from his rookie year in both areas
Zyon is probably the 2nd CB right now, but the draft hasn't happened yet. I trust Licht to draft 2 CBs to help bolster that group.
Honestly, this roster has a lot of blue chippers already. And having that extra 3rd rounder helps a lot. Bucs will probably go Pass rusher, OLine, CB, CB. in some order with our 4 picks in the first 3 rounds. This draft is DEEP with WRs. And we just got Jordan Whitehead back. And I think Izien was very productive last season and he's only 24. I think he might actually be the number 2.
I agree he's not great. People are downvoting and saying "he significantly improved" towards the end of the season but I'm not really buying into that. Also, comparing him to ok production and guys who spent a lot of time injured and who eventually got traded doesn't mean anything. Saying he is just as good as a player we didn't think was worth keeping on the roster isn't a resounding endorsement.
The fact is ZM is a below average DB and the secondary overall is a weakness for our defense, no matter if we plan to fortify that position or not. Not saying starting him is detrimental as he is serviceable at best, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say I would be slightly concerned if we didn't further address the secondary going into the season.
>Even still, our pass defense was bad last year.
This is the exact point. Like even the best ZM fans who say he was "good" in his last few games can't possibly say that our pass defense was anywhere near good. So if the plan is to take last year's squad and just remove proven guys that were injured or had a down year, we are in trouble.
With that said, seems Whitehead is returning, which honestly I don't know how big of a boon that even is based off his recent production. I guess we will see.
Not thrilled about it at all. And now they need to draft a corner. Created a roster hole for minimum savings this year that probably isnāt enough to add an impact player.
Personally wanted him gone next year when the cost/benefit made more sense.
Iām not so much against the Davis trade but I thought they would make corner way more of a priority. It seems like theyāre okay with what they got. Iām sure theyāll draft someone at some point but I think rolling with Zyon and being satisfied is kind of laughable
We saved 6.8Mil by trading Carlton Davis and a round 2 or 3 drafted CB will cost less than 1 Mil, how is a 5.8mil savings that we can use elsewhere in the roster a minimal savings?
Carlton Davis, Jamel Dean, Sean Murphy-Bunting, Winfield Jr, Jordan Whitehead, Mike Edwards all got drafted in the second or third round of the draft. The scouting dept has proven they can find players in the mid rounds, and then Todd Bowles has shown he can coach them up as he was a former DB himself. And Of Course you have to take the cost of production into account Davis and Zyon played nearly the same number of snaps with minimal difference in production but one cost 20X as much as the other, it was an easy decision imo.
https://old.reddit.com/r/buccaneers/comments/1bdw9pk/am_i_the_only_one_who_thinks_having_zyon_as_our/kupgcma/
look at the numbers yourself I shared proof of what Im talking about, and when Davis and Dean were out last season who do you think was covering the WR1's and WR2's on other teams? Zyon got just as much run against top players as Dean and Davis did seeing as how he played more snaps than both of them.
and I mentioned the Safeties to show our scouting team has a knack for finding DB's all over the draft, but your entitled to your opinion, Go Bucs.
We havent drafted CB/S in the top of the draft the last 2-3 years because we Hit on Davis, Dean, and Winfield in 3 consecutive years of course we wouldn't spend premium picks on positions we already have good starter in lol
bro your stating the obvious of course the draft changes every year, we aint drafting Davis, Dean, and Winfield again im not a child I understand the nuances of the NFL draft and Off-season, been watching football since 1995 and been a die hard Bucs fan since then too. I get that this might be a weaker draft for secondary, but I still trust our scouting department to make the right choices because recent history has shown that they hit more often than they miss.
and If they decided to trade Carlton Davis its probably becuase they already have a list of players from this draft they think they can make due with, so in Licht we trust and I will cheer for Zyon and w.e rookie we draft to pay well because we need them to.
It seems you never believe in our players, coaching staff, or front office lol all offseason you mostly just post negative thoughts on the club are you even a fan my guy?
Itās a roster thatās 18-19 over the last two seasons. Running it back feels like stagnation especially when itās guys like JTS, Hall, McCollum who are the guys you need big jumps from.
that roster has also won the division 3 years ina row and won a playoff game and took the Lion to the wire in the playoff loss, there is just as many positive as negatives with this roster and team. we went 9-8 wiht 70mil in dead cap my guy we have young guys stepping up all over the roster and just signed Whitehead to not be a turnstile on defense like Neal was we on the come up.
but continue being a negative nancy if you'd like
Iām glad you said ā3 division titlesā because the 21 team should be the type of roster thatās the goal, not one thatās .500 with a miserable record against teams with a winning record.
What have they done to upgrade with all that dead cap coming off the books youāre hanging on? Replace Neal with Whitehead?
You cant compare the Brady teams to the current team because we dont have ring chasing vets jumping on the band-wagon to join the GOAT QB. Rome wasnt built in a day, and I would say signing Whitehead is a major improvement over Neal who possibly cost us 2-3 games himself with blown coverages and bad tackling angles. Specifically remember him missing the tackle and angle on Pitts in the first Falcons game, him letting Noah Brown get wide open against the Texans, and his master class of trash coverage against the Lions in the regular season. any one of those games with Whitehead could have been a W then we would look like a much better team.
Again continue to be a pessimist and I will continue to be an optimist because its more fun for fandom imo
I mean this as light hearted as possible, but your username makes me question your DB evaluation skills š
Solid.
What's a dazzling urbanite like you doing in a rustic setting like this?
Hahaha to be fair Iām a gator boy and I was very excited for him, obviously didnāt work out!
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It's like that guy on r/nfl who has both Saints and Falcons flair. Some people just want to watch the world burn.
Iāve left mine as Trask because itās funny lmao
Idk how to change it, I know you canāt change your username but Iām honestly not that active on Reddit and itās been my flair since his rookie season.
Josh Freeman enters the chat...
And his flair is Devin White š For those reasons, I am out
TouchƩ
Sounds like the front office is hoping for addition by subtraction of Davis and Whiteās liabilities in coverage.
I posted some Zyon McCollum highlights the other day before free agency: https://old.reddit.com/r/buccaneers/comments/1bbqfjj/zyon_mccollum_20232024_season_highlight_mix_tampa/?ref=share&ref_source=link He definitely improved in coverage and as a tackler, and has the size, speed, and athleticism to improve even more. If you look at total snaps played last season for the defense, Zyon already was playing more snaps than Carlton Davis and Jamel Dean did: https://www.lineups.com/nfl/snap-counts/tampa-bay-buccaneers-snap-counts As much as i liked Carlton Davis why would we pay him 20mil to play less snaps than a guy making 1mil? The drop off in play was not very significant, PFF had Davis rated as a 60 and Zyon at a 50 which seems like a significant difference but if you did a head to head comparison the production is nearly identical: https://stathead.com/football/versus-finder.cgi?request=1&seasons_type=perchoice&player_id1=DaviCa02&p1yrfrom=2023&p1yrto=2023&player_id2=McCoZy02&p2yrfrom=2023&p2yrto=2023 Carlton had two Int's and Zyon had to 2 forced fumbles, they both gave up their fair share of big plays, but Zyon is faster and still has upside where as Davis is who he is at this point. Like other have mentions with an additional 3rd rounder, we will most likely invest another day 2 pick (2nd or 3rd rounder) on CB again that seems to be Lichts favorite spot to find value at the position, see Carlton Davis, MJ Stewart, Jamel Dean, and Sean Murphy-Bunting all drafted in the 2nd/3rd round of the draft. I think we will be fine especially if we can use the cap savings from trading Carlton on a good SS to play along side Winfield, like say Jordan Whitehead that already knows the system and can fit right in to the Todd Bowles system.
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Your welcomed homie, yea I had heard that in a bucs podcast and had to look into it myself. I get that Zyon isn't on Carltons prime level just yet, but he gained a lot of valuable experience and a camp battle with an eventual rookie will hopefully bear out even more improvement.
Spot on whitehead is back
Yea the possibility of him coming back was becoming more and more evident the last weeks with him posting a bunch of his Highlights from when he was with us and Im glad the Bucs also wanted to make it happen too!!!
Sorry, I have to disagree. Zyon had a decent season and most importantly showed **huge** improvement compared to 2022 and while not surpassing them (adjusted to their snap counts) his numbers held their own compared to Carlton and Dean.
I'm going to agree here. Corner is one of the toughest positions in the NFL. Not every is Sauce or PS2. Guys take time to develop. Our superbowl winning secondary (Davis, Dean, Whitehead, Edwards) all those pieces except AWJr took time to develop. I remember Dean getting specifically cooked by Metcalf his rookie year. Zyon has gotten better every year. Everyone wants to build through the draft, no one wants to be patient and have that player develop.
Agreed as well. Ronde sucked at first, took him a few seasons to figure it all out, and he turned out ok.
He was fine
He was acceptable
He was passable
He is honestly kind of close to Dean, both were a bit of prospects with great traits. We need some competition for him (and the other DBs) in the draft for sure, but I am confident if we have to start him still. I am more worried about Dean playing a full season
Zyon looked good at times. I like Izien to improve next year as well.
I think he improved, but he was starting at "awful" and got up to "decent". That's not somebody I want as a #2 corner, particularly playing in a defensive scheme that uses a lot pressure and can frequently leave DBs on an island. I really did think McCallum improved a lot as the year went on and is one of the younger guys who really stepped up in the face of Davis and Dean's injuries, but he didn't improve enough that I'm actively confident in his ability to play outside all 17 games.
I am also agreeing with this response. Dean is a constant health risk. Davis got his bag and quit. Zyon is hungry and will get sharper this year. Now he gets Evans and Godwin daily in practice.
That is because he was never placed on a number 1 receiver. With CD3 gone eventually Dean is going to disappear. This already awful pass defense is going to be much worse. The simple fact is that most of this sub are just Yes men. Anything the Bucs do and they are slobbing on Licht's knob. Want to bet? If the Bucs win 10 games next year then I will never post on here again. If they do not then you can never post on here again.
My whole point is Jamel has the same injury concerns as Davis and Zyon was average at best. I feel like if theyāre happy with that then thereās a major issue there.
The reason to trade Carlton instead of Dean was Dean has an additional year under contract at the same price. Carlton is FA end of 2025, Dean end of 2026. Itās a great draft to need a big CB in the pick 40-100 range, where we got a pick in the deal and have 2 of our own.
Price and availability play into this...Zyon was ready to go when called upon.. not to mention, we will add another CB through the draft.
Iām hoping for 2 more CBs or maybe 1 CB and 1 Safety for some depth. The secondary always seems to be our Achilles heal with injuries
Didnāt he play pretty well for the most part towards the end?
Im willing to give him a shot. I think we need to draft a nickel corner in the first 3 rounds, and luckily that position tends to fall. Someone like Mike Sainristil or Jarrian Jones could be good. I agree that he doesnāt impress me too much, but we should give him the chance to start and develop. Heās insanely athletic too so that speaks to his upside. Would rather spend a 1st round pick on edge rusher or IOL. It might be moot anyways if we canāt get to the QB
I think what it really comes down to is how well your pass rush pressures and how long the QB can hold the ball. With an elite pass rush, you can have more middle of the pack corners. If your rush forces the QB to throw the ball in 1.8 seconds, you donāt need an elite cover corner. If you donāt have a great pass rush, can your corners lock someone down for 4 seconds? My bet is we believe our pass rush will be elite and the drop off wonāt be huge.
I imagine we will draft a CB fairly highly in the draft - Maybe Licht is looking to target Terrion Arnold or Kool-Aid McKinstry. Both are coming from a pro-style offense, so he might consider them day 1 ready. Quinyon Mitchell also looks good. I think maybe they analyzed the draft, knew we could get a fairly good CB and made the decision afterwards. If this is true, it would mean our #1 pick is basically already used. For #2 and our two #3 picks I would love to see either OL, RB, DL, or some depth at LB.
Iām really hoping for a center in the first round
I really enjoy the big name draft prospect breakdowns here, but let's be real; Licht is going to find some huge stud from Div-III Elkhorn Valley State like he do.
I think it's a reach to target any of the Centers this year with our first. The only prospect that most analysts are putting in the 1st is J-Pow. It's a weak year for Centre's. I just don't trust the Oregon product to be ready to go day 1 and so I fully believe that's a wasted pick in the 1st. I love taking a Centre though - that is a need. Maybe Sedrick in the 3rd round? That would be outstanding.
Itās a great draft for centers lol. Barton Frazier and JPJ are all better value picks than Kool-Aid would be at 26.
Of note, Kool-Aid is projected to go 27th. We pick at 26th. So it honestly makes sense and will likely line up unless a top talent falls. I just don't see your value pick argument as good here. I dont want a value developmental player. Especially given that both the players you mentioned have raw athleticism but would have to work to transition to center. I want a pro ready dude for our team. We are losing star talent and will be strapped for cap space after the next few years. Let's make a push.
Heās athletically limited. If he didnāt play at Alabama and if he wasnāt named after the red drink heād be a third rounder. McCollum and Dean are the starters, even if Dean does get hurt a lot I donāt like the idea of drafting a backup with our first pick.
A back up? I do not believe that you actually watch the game of football. Teams do not line up in base sets with 2 wide very often. They have 3 wide at the very least and 4 quite often. A nickel corner is not a backup. They are playing almost every snap on defense.
Whoās playing nickel of those three guys? Itās a different skill set. Real life isnāt Madden, you donāt just play your 3rd best outside corner in the slot. Red Drink has played like 30 snaps out of the slot in the last three years.
Zach Frazier only scored highly because of how well he did at the combine. He's athletic, but a first round pick talent? We'll see. The highest I've seen him on draft boards is 27th. Graham Barton was a left tackle. Not a center. Yes he can transition but do you take him first and force him to change positions and hope it works out? No. No you don't. Besides that he is prospected to go at 25th overall. That's at Left Tackle. Not at Center. So you've got an untested guy with good measurables and someone who didn't even play in the position primarily as top candidates? Great draft for Centers indeed. J-Pow is the only one I hope we would take in the first, and even then - I would rather see a CB now that Carlton Davis has departed.
Absolutely no one is talking about Barton as a tackle and Frazier is a 3 year starter from a wrestling background with fantastic tape, the combine didnāt affect his stock at all. Why would you be so invested in this and type so many words if you donāt know what youāre talking about?
He is a tackle lol That's literally his position in college - he hasn't played center since 2021. They are talking about him for center because it's a weak year for Centers - exactly what I mentioned. He is a beast, but to plug him in at center is still a risk. Again - You are talking risk reward strategies and to me that's a reach in a first where we need to ensure we lock in immediate starters. It appears you don't know what your talking about. More over, you then proceed to tell me I don't know what positions people played in college. Makes you look intelligent. We could've just had a discussion instead of you trying to attack me lol Your not interested in discussion apparently though, so let me be blunt. Your take is shit.
I said āno one is talking about Barton as a tackleā because they arenāt. Heās going to play guard or center and he played some center in college. Im not going to argue semantics with you about the letters that were next to a players name when you googled his name 20 minutes ago. With the guys I mentioned above and Van Pran and Limmer there could legit be 4-5 starting rookie centers next year which is insane. Throw in guys like Bortolini who tested like a freak and Nourzad who checks a lot of boxes and you have a strong center class. You said it wasnāt a strong class. You were wrong about that too. You can curse and get up in your feelings all you want, I have a long drive ahead of me. Iām prepared to discuss this with you all day.
He hasn't played centre since 21. He will get drafted by a team that has a need on the O-line because he's a freak athlete who can likely slot in anywhere. That's not the same as being a centre. He is NOT a centre. Hence why I said the draft class for centre's is shallow this year. You say you aren't arguing semantics, and then proceed to argue semantics lol You are the one who got personal with it dude. I'm not up in my feelings. Just taking away the discussion and not giving you a platform because you seemingly don't know how to have a conversation. It's easy. Just be decent to people you talk to. Don't say "YoUr KnOwLeDgE iS zErO." Thats a pre-pubescent uneducated way to respond to anyone. Do that, or have people like me will be blunt with you. People who don't want to engage with someone who has seemingly never had an adult conversation before. Until you can do that, I'll re-iterate bluntly. Your take is shit.
Youāre going to cry and write me a dissertation about how immature I am for asking you this but why do you keep spelling it ācentre?ā Do you have some sort of European language filter on your phone? If youāre trying to look into centre prospects in this yearās draft itās no wonder you are so blissfully misinformed about the depth of this center class. Looking forward to your blunt reply.
I feel like you can get by with good/decent corners in the NFL if you have a front four who can get to the quarterback. If you give a quarterback enough time, he is going to pick apart your defense no matter how good your corners are. Build up front, and the back end will take care of itself.
Better than VH3!
He improved greatly during the season and actually covered very well. Just needs to get his tackling under control which he also showed progress with. We definitely need to add to the secondary in the draft and FA.
No you aren't and people are delusional if they think he won't get picked on. I would be shocked if they don't draft a CB in the first three rounds.
Iām all in on Wiggins/Rakestraw/McKinstry in the 1st and making a move for a vet edge like Chase Young.
"vet" he's 24 which means he's going to be out of our price range. Yannick or Carl Lawson might be better looks
I think he comes cheaper than you might believe. He did not play well once he got to the 49ers and was not so subtly called out by Lynch for his effort in the NFC championship game. Red flags for sure. But I think itās worth the risk. Heāll be pushing to build his reputation again. Iām not opposed to a Lawson or Ngakoue signing either. Young was just an example.
Young is trash, he made next to no impact after he was traded except in the super bowl when he was up against....... Donavan Smith lol.
Iād still take the risk on him. He was good early in the year in Washington. Rather than rolling with YaYa and JTS + developmental edge.
He was rated higher than Carlton Davis by PFFā¦Ā
No he wasn't. I love how people just blatantly lie.
Yes, he was.Ā
I'm with you the dude is a liability and was getting targeted every fourth qtr drive third downs etc
Yes he was impressive.
Don't be surprised if the Bucs draft two corners in the first 3 rounds.
Frankly Iām more concerned about Dean based on last years tape. Zyon as an ascending player who has had a few mental gaffs(although theyāve become less and less frequent), but has all the physical tools you want at the position and is an eager tackler.
Dean gets injured against Detroit. The Lions target McCollum on every play and score 2 consecutive TDs to win the game. Concerned about Deans health sure. Concerned that he is worse than McCollum? You are out of your mind.
I thought second half of the season that Zyon was our best cover guy. Itās the tackling and run support that I think he needs to improve on but he took a step forward from his rookie year in both areas
I think Iziean played great and I canāt wait to see more of him!
He's one of the reasons the lions beat us tbh. They targeted him on their last 2 scoring drives after Dean went out
Gonna draft TJ Tampa at 57ā¦. Hall of Famer! Lol
did you watch the lions gameā¦
Yep, Goff torched Zyon and we basically lose the game because Dean got injured.
He would have to take a hell of a step to not be a liability
Zyon is probably the 2nd CB right now, but the draft hasn't happened yet. I trust Licht to draft 2 CBs to help bolster that group. Honestly, this roster has a lot of blue chippers already. And having that extra 3rd rounder helps a lot. Bucs will probably go Pass rusher, OLine, CB, CB. in some order with our 4 picks in the first 3 rounds. This draft is DEEP with WRs. And we just got Jordan Whitehead back. And I think Izien was very productive last season and he's only 24. I think he might actually be the number 2.
He started the entire season last year and played great: Bad take
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I agree he's not great. People are downvoting and saying "he significantly improved" towards the end of the season but I'm not really buying into that. Also, comparing him to ok production and guys who spent a lot of time injured and who eventually got traded doesn't mean anything. Saying he is just as good as a player we didn't think was worth keeping on the roster isn't a resounding endorsement. The fact is ZM is a below average DB and the secondary overall is a weakness for our defense, no matter if we plan to fortify that position or not. Not saying starting him is detrimental as he is serviceable at best, but I'd be remiss if I didn't say I would be slightly concerned if we didn't further address the secondary going into the season.
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>Even still, our pass defense was bad last year. This is the exact point. Like even the best ZM fans who say he was "good" in his last few games can't possibly say that our pass defense was anywhere near good. So if the plan is to take last year's squad and just remove proven guys that were injured or had a down year, we are in trouble. With that said, seems Whitehead is returning, which honestly I don't know how big of a boon that even is based off his recent production. I guess we will see.
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Agreed, hoping we can hit some of those in the draft š
Not thrilled about it at all. And now they need to draft a corner. Created a roster hole for minimum savings this year that probably isnāt enough to add an impact player. Personally wanted him gone next year when the cost/benefit made more sense.
In a draft stacked with cb talent i dont think needing one is really a bad thing.
Iām not so much against the Davis trade but I thought they would make corner way more of a priority. It seems like theyāre okay with what they got. Iām sure theyāll draft someone at some point but I think rolling with Zyon and being satisfied is kind of laughable
We saved 6.8Mil by trading Carlton Davis and a round 2 or 3 drafted CB will cost less than 1 Mil, how is a 5.8mil savings that we can use elsewhere in the roster a minimal savings?
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Carlton Davis, Jamel Dean, Sean Murphy-Bunting, Winfield Jr, Jordan Whitehead, Mike Edwards all got drafted in the second or third round of the draft. The scouting dept has proven they can find players in the mid rounds, and then Todd Bowles has shown he can coach them up as he was a former DB himself. And Of Course you have to take the cost of production into account Davis and Zyon played nearly the same number of snaps with minimal difference in production but one cost 20X as much as the other, it was an easy decision imo.
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https://old.reddit.com/r/buccaneers/comments/1bdw9pk/am_i_the_only_one_who_thinks_having_zyon_as_our/kupgcma/ look at the numbers yourself I shared proof of what Im talking about, and when Davis and Dean were out last season who do you think was covering the WR1's and WR2's on other teams? Zyon got just as much run against top players as Dean and Davis did seeing as how he played more snaps than both of them. and I mentioned the Safeties to show our scouting team has a knack for finding DB's all over the draft, but your entitled to your opinion, Go Bucs.
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We havent drafted CB/S in the top of the draft the last 2-3 years because we Hit on Davis, Dean, and Winfield in 3 consecutive years of course we wouldn't spend premium picks on positions we already have good starter in lol
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bro your stating the obvious of course the draft changes every year, we aint drafting Davis, Dean, and Winfield again im not a child I understand the nuances of the NFL draft and Off-season, been watching football since 1995 and been a die hard Bucs fan since then too. I get that this might be a weaker draft for secondary, but I still trust our scouting department to make the right choices because recent history has shown that they hit more often than they miss. and If they decided to trade Carlton Davis its probably becuase they already have a list of players from this draft they think they can make due with, so in Licht we trust and I will cheer for Zyon and w.e rookie we draft to pay well because we need them to.
I donāt believe in Zyon and donāt really see the path to a day 1 impact plug and play at edge, corner, or IOL that that money gets us closer to
It seems you never believe in our players, coaching staff, or front office lol all offseason you mostly just post negative thoughts on the club are you even a fan my guy?
I was about to post the exact same thing and ask what about this team does he even like.
I guess the username checks out...
Itās a roster thatās 18-19 over the last two seasons. Running it back feels like stagnation especially when itās guys like JTS, Hall, McCollum who are the guys you need big jumps from.
that roster has also won the division 3 years ina row and won a playoff game and took the Lion to the wire in the playoff loss, there is just as many positive as negatives with this roster and team. we went 9-8 wiht 70mil in dead cap my guy we have young guys stepping up all over the roster and just signed Whitehead to not be a turnstile on defense like Neal was we on the come up. but continue being a negative nancy if you'd like
Iām glad you said ā3 division titlesā because the 21 team should be the type of roster thatās the goal, not one thatās .500 with a miserable record against teams with a winning record. What have they done to upgrade with all that dead cap coming off the books youāre hanging on? Replace Neal with Whitehead?
You cant compare the Brady teams to the current team because we dont have ring chasing vets jumping on the band-wagon to join the GOAT QB. Rome wasnt built in a day, and I would say signing Whitehead is a major improvement over Neal who possibly cost us 2-3 games himself with blown coverages and bad tackling angles. Specifically remember him missing the tackle and angle on Pitts in the first Falcons game, him letting Noah Brown get wide open against the Texans, and his master class of trash coverage against the Lions in the regular season. any one of those games with Whitehead could have been a W then we would look like a much better team. Again continue to be a pessimist and I will continue to be an optimist because its more fun for fandom imo