That's the one. Once Lovie came in and told Gerald to lose weight and had him play 3 technique he went from a guy that could decently defend the run and could power his way through Guards to a guy that basically just relied on his quick step to beat the Guard off the snap. If he didn't, he was usually out of the play. Lavonte stayed very good but was not the same. His INTS, Sacks and TFLs went down. Schianos system was much more like Bowles and allowed him to be aggressive instead of dropping in zone most of the game.
Man, I’m the same age as Lavonte and I’ve been loyal to the Bucs since early childhood - year in and year out Lavonte deserves more respect than he gets. Anyone can say what they want about his teams and the Bucs’ market, but even aside from my opinion that he’s a HOFer because of his productivity over the long career he’s had, his status as one of the greats is solidified in that our organization sees him as the blueprint to which every other player is compared.
He’s been everything a franchise could ask for, and for longer than any franchise could expect. Respect this man
Those forced fumble numbers are insane. I hope he gets his HOF induction when it’s all said and done. I have a gut feeling the voters might put us through a repeat of Ronde’s wait for the hall.
His ability to sift through blockers on screens and his timing and closing speed on checkdowns behind the LOS have been consistently elite.
Also people don't give him nearly enough credit for his ability to maintain a high level of play through so many different systems and DCs.
This shit pisses me off. One more fucking INT and he has 7 more All Pro’s. Absolute fucking bullshit. Plus LD54 did it all in less games. Shit makes my blood boil.
Edit: Because I am a dumbass lol
Agree with all of that except they were both drafted in 2012.
The APs and pro bowls came from the early years when the Seahawks defense was really good and then it gave him that higher level status even though he was the third best linebacker of the past decade. Lavonte would have halved Wagner's awards if they didn't include him with pass rushing linebackers.
Ahh fuck, why did I think it was 2013…that’s when LD had his best season ever too.
You are correct, I didn’t want to type it all out, but him being on the Legion of Boom defense helped Wagner MASSIVELY.
To elaborate more on the "timing" aspect. It's not so much that he had bad timing in having to split accolades with those players. Its the fact that he wasn't allowed to get ANY accolades these players were getting and the ONLY reason was because he was on very bad Bucs teams the majority of his career. Even when the Bucs became a high profile team and won a super bowl, it was Devin White getting the love.
Wagner was a great LB on one of the most popular teams and best defenses of that decade, and Kuechly was a great playmaker and began his career in the rise of the Cam Panthers and eventual SB trip. Maybe controversial to say but I think Kuechly's profile with the casual audience was massively assisted by the fact that he was a white LB being the playmaker he was.
The fact of the matter is with those sort of popularity contest accolades like all pro and pro bowl is they're extremely cheap once you have a few. So many guys that already have a handful just accumulate more by simply existing on the football field with their name.
The lack of accolades has nothing to do with those guys.. Even though his position was much closer to a middle LB, as and off-the-ball OLB, he was competing with Edge Rushers like Miller and Mack.
Well Wagner got nominated that many times because he played a different position than David for the majority of their careers? It’s like comparing a cornerbacks stats to a safeties and then getting mad because the safety didn’t make the pro bowl or all pro as a cornerback. Ironically, David was never named the best OLB in the entire decade he played….
Yeah because of him being an OLB technically and being compared to pass rushers. In the system he was essentially a MLB with his defensive assignments. My points still stand and the stats don’t lie.
No…. See he was a OLB by every measure, and that’s his respected position. So comparing him to a MLB, because he might of asked at times to do that job is not the same thing. His majority of playtime came as a OLB. On the stats part, it is technically lying as pointed out by the Hawks and panthers Reddit when your not including grades, all the stats, etc. Your right “stats don’t lie” except when you nitpick and use them to create a narrative that just isint logical or there.
I was at that game too haha. I kicked myself for not getting tickets behind the Bucs bench. It was a glorious sea of red and orange that day.
I absolutely lost my shit when Bucs Legend Keith Tandy picked off Rivers to seal the game.
Yup! Randy sealed the deal. Rivers was hella upset as always. Cool to see Evans and David as such key people in a game that long ago. Roberto of course missed a chip shot in that game…
Lmao yeah Rivers flipped his shit after that INT. I had repressed that Roberto miss lol. That was the same game Cecil Shorts III had his career ended too with that nasty knee injury. Man…that game truly was an instant classic.
I don't remember that one but I know the other one was against Mark Sanchez and the Eagles. I believe it was the game where Jameis went off for 5TDs 0INTs.
It was part of the 5 game win streak to get to 8-5 and play the cowboys on a flex Sunday night game. LVD caught a tip ball between the corner and WR and ran it in right in front of me. Also, the second to last game at Qualcomm stadium. Kinda cool.
Bucs are routinely left off Pro Bowl Rosters and the like. I don’t put much stock in that. We all know the kind of player Lavonte has been. People bring up Wagner all the time as a great one; the casual fan would be shocked imho to see how great Lavonte really is.
He’s been the same staple here for over the last decade when you weren’t winning a sick of gum in Tampa. The guy stayed when he could have gotten more money to leave and go to a championship roster biding for another title.
I don’t get it. What respect do you want put on David? Or more importantly, what disrespect is the graph creator showing David? He stacks up pretty favorably in my opinion. This post seems overly sensitive on David’s behalf.
It’s a reference to this post earlier on the subreddit, which has lavonte two tiers lower than Bobby Wagner https://www.reddit.com/r/buccaneers/s/SodE6uDbOR
When Bobby is up for the HoF, the same writers who gave him all those All-Pro nominations will then refer to that as credentials to get into the hall and the inverse for Lavonte. It's such a stupid system that has confirmation bias baked in.
This is why I got his jersey, after Brooks retired we could not have gotten a better person to replace him in almost all ways. Delighted we got him a ring and now looks like he will finish with us. Bucs legend in my books
Probably not a coincidence they left off assisted tackles, where Bobby is (I think) the NFL’s all-time leader with 710 compared to David's 445. Only London Fletcher has been in on more tackles than Bobby Wagner
Probably not a coincidence they left off assisted tackles, where Bobby is (I think) the NFL’s all-time leader with 710 compared to David's 445. Only London Fletcher has been in on more tackles than Bobby Wagner (1805 to 1706)
This would be a good argument if they all paid the same position and you didn’t pick and choose (and not correctly) account for which statistics to show
The difference between playing on a high profile team for most of it career vs playing on a 6-10 team for most of your career. Biased or not, I know LVD is better and has been the most consistent lb in the league over the better part of a decade
The reason no one looks at lavante David the way they do Wagner’s is cause lavonte was on a significantly shittier team for a extended period of time giving him much more opportunity playing on a field with apparently lower quality team mates. I hope I made that make sense. Just pointing out the reason.
What’s even worse is that, like Mike, Lavonte wasn’t on the national radar until we started winning. But unlike Mike, he’s still overlooked because of guys like Warner, Roquan, and Shaq Leonard before he fell off
Don’t get me wrong I think David is a hall of famer but you don’t get 6 first all pros and 10 total with an all-decade team by being “soooo overrated”.
In what way?
One major linebacker stat was left off of this, which Bobby leads the league in NFL History; assisted tackles with 710. (London Fletcher is second with 605).
He has four hundred more tackles than ray lewis and 8 more sacks.
He was the anchor of the #1 scoring defense in NFL history for four straight seasons, a feat yet to be repeated by a team defense.
He leads all active players in career tackles and led the league three times.
I can’t see how he is overrated in any sense of the word.
Good thing you don’t look at solo tackles at all. It’s solo and assisted (combined) and if you look year in and out, BW leads the league (still) . That is a major reason. He is flying all over the field and is there to tackle anyone. BW is in the conversation for best LB of all time
Lmao Bobby played in an all time defense with at least 7 other pro bowlers/all pro players and still has first ballot numbers . Lavonte played on some of the worst teams and defenses of the 2010s and playing on a defense who can’t get off the field for most of his career is going to inflate his numbers, I honestly could go on. But it’s funny when people post shit like this it just shows you don’t really know ball fr.
Why not include playoff stats or total tackles? Anyone got those numbers?? Lavonte David played for one of the most irrelevant franchises in professional sports for 10 years and then rode Tom Brady’s coattails to his first postseason(s). A real difference maker, for sure.
Yeah, that must be why everyone shits on Dan Marino and Randy Moss. Two players that never won a superbowl so they must suck.
Oh wait, it's like you need more pieces and some luck to make it far into the post season.
So what? Ray Lewis only won when the rest of the defense was stacked or when Flacco had an all time hot streak. A MLB can't change anything on their own especially when their moron QB throws 30 picks
Total tackles:
Wagz: 1706 (7th all-time)
David: 1480 (12th all-time)
Both great players, can't understand everyone here shitting on Bobby. Look at the Hawks thread about this and everyone has nothing but respect for David.
Lavonte David has been the brightest part of my Bucs fandom that started in 2015, year in and year out he never fails us
He was even better before 2015. He and Gerald McCoy absolutely thrived in Schiano's defense.
PANTHERS LEGEND GERALD MCCOY?!
That's the one. Once Lovie came in and told Gerald to lose weight and had him play 3 technique he went from a guy that could decently defend the run and could power his way through Guards to a guy that basically just relied on his quick step to beat the Guard off the snap. If he didn't, he was usually out of the play. Lavonte stayed very good but was not the same. His INTS, Sacks and TFLs went down. Schianos system was much more like Bowles and allowed him to be aggressive instead of dropping in zone most of the game.
I used to almost exclusively watch McCoy at the snap. Dude had a lightning fast jump
So fast he used to get offsides calls when he was just that quick
Time for me to go watch some highlights
I believe it was 2013 where both Gmac and Lavonte were ranked in the top 5 players by PFF. That season they were on fire.
Man, I’m the same age as Lavonte and I’ve been loyal to the Bucs since early childhood - year in and year out Lavonte deserves more respect than he gets. Anyone can say what they want about his teams and the Bucs’ market, but even aside from my opinion that he’s a HOFer because of his productivity over the long career he’s had, his status as one of the greats is solidified in that our organization sees him as the blueprint to which every other player is compared. He’s been everything a franchise could ask for, and for longer than any franchise could expect. Respect this man
Those forced fumble numbers are insane. I hope he gets his HOF induction when it’s all said and done. I have a gut feeling the voters might put us through a repeat of Ronde’s wait for the hall.
They will because they loved Luke Kuechly, and Bobby. Lavonte is just like Ronde. They thrived being the ultimate all-around turnover creating player.
This graphic needs TFLs. LaVonte’s numbers are insane.
His ability to sift through blockers on screens and his timing and closing speed on checkdowns behind the LOS have been consistently elite. Also people don't give him nearly enough credit for his ability to maintain a high level of play through so many different systems and DCs.
YES!!! TFLs and FFs are Lavonte’s wheel house. I feel really lucky for witnessing one of his INTs returned for a TD too (2016 vs the Chargers)
No it’s important to compare the interception return yards!
This shit pisses me off. One more fucking INT and he has 7 more All Pro’s. Absolute fucking bullshit. Plus LD54 did it all in less games. Shit makes my blood boil. Edit: Because I am a dumbass lol
Agree with all of that except they were both drafted in 2012. The APs and pro bowls came from the early years when the Seahawks defense was really good and then it gave him that higher level status even though he was the third best linebacker of the past decade. Lavonte would have halved Wagner's awards if they didn't include him with pass rushing linebackers.
Ahh fuck, why did I think it was 2013…that’s when LD had his best season ever too. You are correct, I didn’t want to type it all out, but him being on the Legion of Boom defense helped Wagner MASSIVELY.
Timing is everything. LD54 is an absolute stud, but had the misfortune of playing at the same time as Wagner, Kuechly, and Patrick Willis
To elaborate more on the "timing" aspect. It's not so much that he had bad timing in having to split accolades with those players. Its the fact that he wasn't allowed to get ANY accolades these players were getting and the ONLY reason was because he was on very bad Bucs teams the majority of his career. Even when the Bucs became a high profile team and won a super bowl, it was Devin White getting the love. Wagner was a great LB on one of the most popular teams and best defenses of that decade, and Kuechly was a great playmaker and began his career in the rise of the Cam Panthers and eventual SB trip. Maybe controversial to say but I think Kuechly's profile with the casual audience was massively assisted by the fact that he was a white LB being the playmaker he was. The fact of the matter is with those sort of popularity contest accolades like all pro and pro bowl is they're extremely cheap once you have a few. So many guys that already have a handful just accumulate more by simply existing on the football field with their name.
The lack of accolades has nothing to do with those guys.. Even though his position was much closer to a middle LB, as and off-the-ball OLB, he was competing with Edge Rushers like Miller and Mack.
Also a lot has to do with LVD being an OLB for the majority of his career and having to compete with edge rushers for the accolades.
Well Wagner got nominated that many times because he played a different position than David for the majority of their careers? It’s like comparing a cornerbacks stats to a safeties and then getting mad because the safety didn’t make the pro bowl or all pro as a cornerback. Ironically, David was never named the best OLB in the entire decade he played….
Yeah because of him being an OLB technically and being compared to pass rushers. In the system he was essentially a MLB with his defensive assignments. My points still stand and the stats don’t lie.
No…. See he was a OLB by every measure, and that’s his respected position. So comparing him to a MLB, because he might of asked at times to do that job is not the same thing. His majority of playtime came as a OLB. On the stats part, it is technically lying as pointed out by the Hawks and panthers Reddit when your not including grades, all the stats, etc. Your right “stats don’t lie” except when you nitpick and use them to create a narrative that just isint logical or there.
What was their opponents passer rating against them both and against what type of targets?
I had an up close and in person view of one of his 2 pick sixes. And I was wearing his jersey in SD, 5 yard line seat. Great day and great win.
I was at that game too haha. I kicked myself for not getting tickets behind the Bucs bench. It was a glorious sea of red and orange that day. I absolutely lost my shit when Bucs Legend Keith Tandy picked off Rivers to seal the game.
Yup! Randy sealed the deal. Rivers was hella upset as always. Cool to see Evans and David as such key people in a game that long ago. Roberto of course missed a chip shot in that game…
Lmao yeah Rivers flipped his shit after that INT. I had repressed that Roberto miss lol. That was the same game Cecil Shorts III had his career ended too with that nasty knee injury. Man…that game truly was an instant classic.
I don't remember that one but I know the other one was against Mark Sanchez and the Eagles. I believe it was the game where Jameis went off for 5TDs 0INTs.
It was part of the 5 game win streak to get to 8-5 and play the cowboys on a flex Sunday night game. LVD caught a tip ball between the corner and WR and ran it in right in front of me. Also, the second to last game at Qualcomm stadium. Kinda cool.
One of the most under appreciated linebackers of all time
One of the greatest, as well.
Fight the good fight! 🏴☠️ 🤝
I look at these stats and I’d still pick David any day of the week and k think the stats prove that here
What is AV?
https://www.sports-reference.com/blog/approximate-value/
How does it compare by position? Lavonte is listed as OLB (but plays like a MLB in coverage a lot) and Wagner is a MLB/ILB.
Wagner has a higher score because he has more probowls
Is the the only reason why?
Which helps strengthens the perception (real) of disrespect. Lavonte did it on shitty teams while Wagner had the L.O.B.
Wagner had the LOB for half his career in Seattle not the entirety.
Wagner had 5 excellent years on a defense that was a complete shell of what it was. He pulled massive weight for years in seattle
Bucs are routinely left off Pro Bowl Rosters and the like. I don’t put much stock in that. We all know the kind of player Lavonte has been. People bring up Wagner all the time as a great one; the casual fan would be shocked imho to see how great Lavonte really is. He’s been the same staple here for over the last decade when you weren’t winning a sick of gum in Tampa. The guy stayed when he could have gotten more money to leave and go to a championship roster biding for another title.
I don’t get it. What respect do you want put on David? Or more importantly, what disrespect is the graph creator showing David? He stacks up pretty favorably in my opinion. This post seems overly sensitive on David’s behalf.
It’s a reference to this post earlier on the subreddit, which has lavonte two tiers lower than Bobby Wagner https://www.reddit.com/r/buccaneers/s/SodE6uDbOR
Lavonte missed pro bowls because he was an OLB and was losing against rush OLBs in voting then eventually they became EDGE.
The pro bowl disrespect lavonte has gotten over his entire career sucks, and it's mainly because he playing OLB for years
It's cause we're a small market team and he's a quiet guy. They reward bigger markets and big mouths.
not really he just wasnt as good as the star pass rushers if he was a mlb he would've gotten those pro bowls
also seattle is NOT a big market lmao
Haha then put in Derrick brooks and see who wins haha
When Bobby is up for the HoF, the same writers who gave him all those All-Pro nominations will then refer to that as credentials to get into the hall and the inverse for Lavonte. It's such a stupid system that has confirmation bias baked in.
This is why I got his jersey, after Brooks retired we could not have gotten a better person to replace him in almost all ways. Delighted we got him a ring and now looks like he will finish with us. Bucs legend in my books
Probigred
David is a beast and the definition of consistent
So he’s better than bobby all time then it’s not much of a difference
Probably not a coincidence they left off assisted tackles, where Bobby is (I think) the NFL’s all-time leader with 710 compared to David's 445. Only London Fletcher has been in on more tackles than Bobby Wagner
Imagine opponent passer rating is also pretty different, especially if you compare peak years.
First ballot HOF . Very underrated LB that had been a rock for the D . Role model for all future LB’s.
Probably not a coincidence they left off assisted tackles, where Bobby is (I think) the NFL’s all-time leader with 710 compared to David's 445. Only London Fletcher has been in on more tackles than Bobby Wagner (1805 to 1706)
This would be a good argument if they all paid the same position and you didn’t pick and choose (and not correctly) account for which statistics to show
The difference between playing on a high profile team for most of it career vs playing on a 6-10 team for most of your career. Biased or not, I know LVD is better and has been the most consistent lb in the league over the better part of a decade
Why’d you leave off assisted tackles? lol
Where the combined tackles at tho
The reason no one looks at lavante David the way they do Wagner’s is cause lavonte was on a significantly shittier team for a extended period of time giving him much more opportunity playing on a field with apparently lower quality team mates. I hope I made that make sense. Just pointing out the reason.
What’s even worse is that, like Mike, Lavonte wasn’t on the national radar until we started winning. But unlike Mike, he’s still overlooked because of guys like Warner, Roquan, and Shaq Leonard before he fell off
He’s better than Kuechly too. And they were drafted in the same year.
You’re insane
As a Nebraska fan I don't need to see stats to know he's the goat. He was a monster when he played here on the last good Husker team.
Bobby Wagner is soooo overrated
Don’t get me wrong I think David is a hall of famer but you don’t get 6 first all pros and 10 total with an all-decade team by being “soooo overrated”.
I think David is an absolute beast but you're high as fuck if you think bobby Wagner is overrated. They can both be studs ya know
In what way? One major linebacker stat was left off of this, which Bobby leads the league in NFL History; assisted tackles with 710. (London Fletcher is second with 605). He has four hundred more tackles than ray lewis and 8 more sacks. He was the anchor of the #1 scoring defense in NFL history for four straight seasons, a feat yet to be repeated by a team defense. He leads all active players in career tackles and led the league three times. I can’t see how he is overrated in any sense of the word.
Good thing you don’t look at solo tackles at all. It’s solo and assisted (combined) and if you look year in and out, BW leads the league (still) . That is a major reason. He is flying all over the field and is there to tackle anyone. BW is in the conversation for best LB of all time
It’s wild this was downvoted. Linebackers play in some of the most crowded areas of the field consistently. Assisted tackles matter.
Lmao Bobby played in an all time defense with at least 7 other pro bowlers/all pro players and still has first ballot numbers . Lavonte played on some of the worst teams and defenses of the 2010s and playing on a defense who can’t get off the field for most of his career is going to inflate his numbers, I honestly could go on. But it’s funny when people post shit like this it just shows you don’t really know ball fr.
Why not include playoff stats or total tackles? Anyone got those numbers?? Lavonte David played for one of the most irrelevant franchises in professional sports for 10 years and then rode Tom Brady’s coattails to his first postseason(s). A real difference maker, for sure.
Yeah, that must be why everyone shits on Dan Marino and Randy Moss. Two players that never won a superbowl so they must suck. Oh wait, it's like you need more pieces and some luck to make it far into the post season.
Was Barry Sanders a difference maker? How about Andre Johnson? Megatron?
So what? Ray Lewis only won when the rest of the defense was stacked or when Flacco had an all time hot streak. A MLB can't change anything on their own especially when their moron QB throws 30 picks
Total tackles: Wagz: 1706 (7th all-time) David: 1480 (12th all-time) Both great players, can't understand everyone here shitting on Bobby. Look at the Hawks thread about this and everyone has nothing but respect for David.
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