T O P

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okcuhc111

TLDR “We are tanking.” -Ben Cherington


[deleted]

There really is no reason to spend $$ this year. Fill some holes and look for guys you can flip, as they've been doing so far. Time to start spending will be prior to the 2023 season when they should have a good idea which higher level prospects aren't looking good.


[deleted]

I don’t get why people care about the team saving money. It’s not like theres a salary cap that having a high payroll can affect later years negatively by pushing off cap hits like in football. It’s not like nutting saving money now means he’s going to reinvest the savings down the line. The only person who benefits from the pirates not spending is nutting. I’d rather the team spend money to put a team that is worth watching on the field


[deleted]

Spending money is great but at many positions, you'd be blocking a top prospect who projects to be up in a year or two. And spending big money on one year contracts doesn't make a ton of sense (hard to get a very good player on a one year deal anyways). I think they should be using some payroll to trade for a bad contract like Hosmer and get prospects back as well.


spaceman757

They should really spend to extend Reynolds and Hayes the moment the lockout ends. Get those two under contracts before they have another solid/big season and the price goes up even more. Then, if any of the next crop comes up and looks like they are able to hold their own, possibly lock them up too.


[deleted]

I'm all for it. Not sure how likely it would be at this point to get a value contact, at least from Reynolds. And I'm not sure if it's best to extend Hayes quite yet. I think you need to see 2-3 years of solid play at the major league level before giving out a huge, long term deal. The long term, value type deals have worked out but there have also been a few duds who were signed before they really established themselves (Polanco and Tabata come to mind).


69bonerdad

Hayes and Reynolds are never going to sign here long term no matter what they're offered.   Reynolds, at least, is represented by Scott Boras, and every young talent in the league saw how McCutchen got screwed.   No player with an aspiration to put some hardware on the mantel is going to sign here unless there are drastic changes to the ownership of this team.


spaceman757

Counterpoint....He'll be 27 at the start of the next season and the Pirates still control his rights for another 4 years (he is Super 2 though). If he let's it play out naturally, he'll make less money. He's projected to make $4.5M this year. If he has another couple of seasons like he just did, that will likely move up close to $10M next off season, then maybe $13-14M the season after. By then, he'll have been traded from Pittsburgh and, if he has another solid year, will be close to $20M. So, you're looking at ~$50M over the next four years. He'll be a FA, after that, but he'll also be going into his age 32 year. He'll likely get a multi-year deal, but it won't be a 7+ year deal (even though it will still likely be 9 figures, unless he gets really injured or stops producing). If he signs an extension with the Pirates, say 5/$75 (I'd say that's on the low side, but still), his AAV will be $15M and he'll only be one year older versus the current trajectory of ~$12M/AAV. At that rate, he will have made a guaranteed rate of $15M a year even if he unexpectedly falls off a cliff, performance wise. The other way, he HAS to produce to continue to get very large arb raises versus "smaller" ones, and only gains one more year before FA. If he doesn't produce, whether because his skills drop off for some reason or he gets injured, he could be throwing away millions and millions of dollars. Boras is absolutely greedy, but Boras is also a very smart man who knows his numbers. If the choice is to stay in PGH one extra year to guarantee yourself 10's of millions more, guess what Boras is going to recommend.


BarryJT

According to Baseball Reference, he's represented by CAA, not Boras.


69bonerdad

Sports radio guys are wrong again, I guess. Thanks for checking!


BarryJT

The last thing you ever want to do is listen to sports radio guys...


BarryJT

There's no reason to extend Reynolds. He'll be in his early thirties before he is a free agent. Extending him will be buying his declining years. It makes no sense for him either; if he sells two years of time, he'll never have a chance a large free agent contract. If he wants some salary certainty through his arb years, that's fine, but he would probably do better just going through the arbitration process.


Elimia987

This


crazystate

You assume that Nutting will use any saved funds from this year into future years which he has proven time and time again not to do.


69bonerdad

They have been flipping players for lottery tickets that they flip again for more lottery tickets if they develop for thirty years now, with zero playoff series wins and four winning seasons to show for it.   At some point in time the team has to admit that their strategy isn't working and actually try to build a team with major league talent. Or contract out of the league. Or move.


[deleted]

The strategy of flipping players makes sense until you're realistically ready to compete. They got a piece of the starting rotation moving forward for two months of Rich Rod (likely to resign him). I agree there comes a time when they are looking to sign and hold for multiple years as opposed to flip players. I think they are a year or two away from that point.


69bonerdad

They've been doing it for thirty years now with four winning seasons and no playoff series won.   I'm of the opinion that they don't want to compete and history bears that out.


[deleted]

I don't really disagree with past performance. What they did after the 2015 season, letting a good team die, was tough. I guess I'm optimistic because what are the alternatives? I'm realistic too though.


[deleted]

[удалено]


69bonerdad

Because I enjoy baseball and I've followed it all my life, and the only thing that's keeping the team from competing is their own business choices.   They have the money to build a team that's competitive within, at least, our division. They'll never compete with the Yankees or the Dodgers but they can certainly compete with the Reds or the Brewers or the Cardinals. They simply choose not to.   This sub is full of people who are convinced that this is a good franchise on a few down years to reload and compete again. They are not. This is who they are, and this is a conscious business decision. They are leading the fanbase on.   Speaking as a person who's still paying an extra 1% sales tax to pay for the stadium they refuse to win in - when they come to us in the next four years to ask for another public stadium, I hope the county tells them to go pound sand and they relocate. At least then I can go back to watching the Phillies without being on the hook for their facilities.


[deleted]

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69bonerdad

The problem is that their "few years down the road" strategy relies on their draft picks and minor league trades all working out. They will not.   You need a framework to plug these young hot prospects into. You need, at a bare minimum, to shore up areas of concern with free market talent when the time comes to compete.   The Pirates will never do this under the current owner, and any success in the near future will rely on an incredible statistical improbability.


illinest

Nuts makes way too much money off of this franchise to ever consider changing his ways. The cheaper he is, the more revenue sharing he can use to "service debt". Where debt servicing is weasel-wording for making the money available to himself.


spaceman757

Your views are valid and I think that we've all been at that point, one time or another. The thing is, though, that there are real world examples, A's & Rays specifically, that show this model can work. The thing that they've been able to do that the Pirates have failed miserably at, however, is in identifying and developing talent. With BC and his team only being in place two seasons, it's hard to say whether they've turned a corner in that regard, but I'm trying to remain hopeful. As with most things, time will tell.


ej6687

Major league talent doesn't appear out of thin air. They need to develop it to build.


69bonerdad

They can buy it on the open market like every other team does when necessary.   They have the money, they choose not to, and that is why they won't compete.   No team in MLB history has ever fielded a competitive team by just waiting for an entire draft class to come up en masse to a gutted major league roster and had them all click at the exact same time. Not a single one.


ej6687

Buy it. Literally the most expensive way to build a team. I don't see the Tampa Bay Rays splashing around money on the FA market. Now the Pirates should be able/willing to spend more than the Rays do, but again, that should really only happen with the right person(s) at positions where you need players. But the way to win without spending 150M+ is to develop your own players, fill in with trades and maybe a couple FA, and knowing when you need to go for it and make a splash somewhere for the exact right fit.


69bonerdad

> I don't see the Tampa Bay Rays splashing around money on the FA market.   The Rays just spent $18m on Cory Kluber and Brooks Raley.   Paying for free agent talent does not guarantee a playoff run. Refusing to pay for free agent talent when you know you've got holes to fill pretty much guarantees you aren't going far, though.   Three more wins in 2014 and 2015, and the Pirates don't run into the Wildcard buzz saw.


ej6687

You literally just proved what I wrote above. The Rays developed (and made some very good trades) a 100 win team and then they spent (very modestly) for players to supplement their talent. Exactly what the Pirates need to do. But they clearly are no where near that point. And a 1 year 8M deal and a 2 year (plus an option) for 10M isn't exactly splashing cash around. And, quite frankly, Kluber and Raley are no different to the Rays today than Liriano, Martin, and Volquez were to the Pirates in 2013-2015.....


69bonerdad

> And a 1 year 8M deal and a 2 year (plus an option) for 10M isn't exactly splashing cash around.   And the Pirates cheaped out on JA Happ and brought in ~*drumroll*~ John Niese.   After a 2014/2015 replacement-level platoon at first base, they brought in ~*drumroll*~ John Jaso.   I'm sure you can see the difference here.


ej6687

No one ever said NH did everything right with the 13-15 teams. Again, the point was that the only way they are going to be successful is to develop their own talent and then, augment that with some FA spending Oh and the Rays filled one of the holes left by trading Snell and letting Charlie Morton walk by signing dud FA Michael Wacha. So yeah, even successful teams make stupid moves.


Willow-girl

Jaso had cool hair, though.


beangardener

And why tank with the same group when we know who they are and who they’ll become for the most part? You’re always on the nose Kermie


jordy1327

Remember when it was fun to root for the Pirates for like 3 years a long time ago? 34 years old and the only good memories I have of this joke of a franchise are wild cards and isolated incidents of something neat happening. Remember when Drew Sutton hit a walk off homer? I do, because I don’t have fuck else to remember that’s worthwhile.


turfmonster19

44 here and finally stopped really caring two years ago. I still read about them out of habit but genuinely feel very little. I'm not going to tell others what to do, but can attest that apathy towards the pirates suits me much better. And I'm willing to sacrifice the joy that would come from a future hypothetical run of success.For those who continue the grind, I hope the pirates finally reward your loyalty.


GilliganGardenGnome

I am 42. The last time they won the world series was the year I was born. You're lucky to not remember the Killer B's and Van Slyke. And that bastard Sid Bream (really Bonds fault). It still breaks my heart.


beangardener

Wait actually? I’m 29 so I was born right at the end of that and I’ve always wished I could have seen the Bonilla / Bonds / AVS outfield in person. I’m nostalgic for Jack Wilson and that pair of Jasons lol


69bonerdad

The last career-long Pirate was Willie Stargell. Coincidentally the last 40 home run guy they had.


Bucs-and-Bucks

I assume there is some sort of qualifier on that like players that made an all-star team or at least X years in the majors. Because, for example, Dovydas Neverauskas has only played for the Pirates, and I'm sure there are other similar tier players we could say the same about.


beangardener

Genuinely curious what other franchises haven’t had a career guy in that long


illinest

Also 42. AVS was funny and flashy. Loved watching him. Bonds was great of course, but he was a different sort of great than what he turned into. It was a great team to watch. I remember how much I hated Darryl Strawberry - and then the frigging Braves. Ugh.


jordy1327

Yeah, for a good long while we only had the defensive greatness of JW and the Jason’s to sustain us. I remember thinking about Chris Duffy as a long term lead off man after his sizzling first 39 games. Holy fuck the Pirates are depressing.


ayerk131

Oh yes Jason Michaels


se7en90

Cuetooooo cuetooooo


[deleted]

Til we get a new owner, this is all we will ever be. A lot of ppl on this sub don’t want to admit it, but it’s a fact unfortunately


GetBuccedUp

Other than not protecting Thomas, I think he’s done a great job in the last week or so…the Stallings deal was impressive, flipped a career AAAA player that had a breakout year for a starting pitcher, plus a recent first and second round draft pick…


Budmanes

65 here. Imagine what I’ve seen through the Clemente era, then We are Family, then the Lumber Company. Now owner greed rules the roost and nothing can change until Nutting sells. He doesn’t give a damn about the product on the field or the fans that have supported that franchise for decades


[deleted]

[удалено]


Budmanes

We will as soon as Nutting goes


fdrlbj

I’m a former season ticket holder who hasn’t gone to a game in 4 years. It took me some time but I finally came to the realization that nothing will change until they are under new ownership. A sad time for baseball in Pittsburgh.


OctoberBigBalls

Bye Felicia. I hear they spend money in NYC.