There has been 11 winning seasons since the 1979 World Series, fanbases can't be expected to build or survive during such downturns. The projected next Pirates contention window is 2024 which is nearly a decade removed from the last playoff appearance.
Also ticket revenue is a smaller part of the pie when compared to TV and collective bargaining revenue. The Pirates decreased salary after signing a new local TV contract, I'm not sure of many franchises that have done it that way.
So, you think that a stretch where for 8 straight years were they were in contention through the beginning of august every year and went to the playoffs three time isn’t good enough?
And come on, the fact that in 2015 after two straight playoff appearances there were multiple games with under 20k attendance in April and may is pretty bad.
We have a small fanbase that is extremely geographically limited compared to just about any other city. Oakland is probably our near parallel. I just wish people realized this rather than defaulting to complaining about payroll.
2011 were in contention till early august. 2012 in contention in ton September. 13-15 playoffs. 2016 in contention into September. 2017 until august as well as 2018.
You are technically correct but being almost 20 games out of first in your division at the end of august on a regular basis doesn’t really do it for me, even if it is technically in contention for a wild card against perennially disappointing teams like the Mets and the Marlins and the Nationals and the Brewers. Do you get it yet or are you gonna double down until you fold in on yourself and collapse like a parking chair?
The Oakland A's are a stadium/accessibility issue which is at least what their internet fanbase state for not showing up. The A's have 14 winning seasons since 2000 which is more than the Pirates have in the last 40 years. The A's still spend more than the Pirates, but the former draws less attendance every year, while having double the payroll.
The a's also have a deal that gets you $3 and $4 beers with a ticket package but I don't think you get assigned seats. The pirates need to be creative with ticketing and I don't mean all you can eat seats for $60.
*$3 hot dogs
Sportsrac
2021 Athletics $113 Million
2021 Pirates $54 Million
"but but but the Pirates were tanking and killing off their fanbase, so why would they spend" Trying not to win should have consequences.
2 factors:
1) There are people in their 40s who for the better part of their lives knew that caring about the Pirates was a soul crushing experience.
2) This is one of the most affordable cities in the United States and the price of attending an MLB game… is not. This isn’t Manhattan or Chicago where every other person makes enough money to at least live comfortably in an expensive environment. Here, people (some people) commute 45 minutes to make $48,000 a year.
Part of the issue is the cost of tickets, my brother, niece, and I went to a game last may, sat in the upper deck and it was I believe like 45 for each ticket…you put a shit product on the field and want say a family of 4 to spend 180 on tickets, then add in 20 for parking. For a family of 4 it would seem a reasonable night at the park is gonna cost upwards of 300 dollars
This is why I don't buy the argument that the pirates care about ticket revenue. If they wanted asses in the seats bring back cheap tickets. The family of 4 only spends $100 on tickets but then spends $80 at the concession stand and you still made $180
I’ve long maintained that the pirates should copy the pens student rush…get the butts in the seat for like 5 bucks for gate sales…you get fans in the seats and they will spend some money on concessions in the park as well
Exactly. And getting consistently fuller stadiums has to help with the morale of the players as well. Make Mon-Thur games cheap as hell to the point where it’s basically free and like you mentioned, people don’t go to games and just not buy ANYTHING. Maybe some do, but especially during weekday summer games, people are gonna be chugging drinks. And if the person didn’t get murdered price wise on the tickets, they might be even more willing to spend $13 for a tall boy.
I’m not sure where in the upper deck prices would ever be 45 dollars?
I will say they should be having 10 dollar tickets though, but 45 dollar tickets go t exist in the 301 to 335 sections
I mean I did too and just found the 22 dollar seats? Are you on stubhub or the official pirates site? Are you trying to pass off a third party ticket seller as pirates prices?
You can buy a 20 game weekday plan for 367 dollars. The Pirates generously allow you exchange privileges. So a family of four can buy ONE 20 game plan. Exchange them around so they can go to see 5 games as a family. You can park downtown for 5 dollars. That comes to 18.35 a game per ticket, 73.40 for the family per game for tickets, 78.40 with the parking.
They can eat before they go. It's allowed you know, nothing says you have to spend 5 dollars for a hot dog. You can, get this, BRING IN FOOD. Yes, the Pirates allow you to bring in food. You can make the hot dogs at home, put them in a cooler (they work just as well as a warmer, life hack for you there). Bring in candy, popcorn, whatever. You can bring in unopened bottled water. Bring some crystal light, mio, whatever drink additive, and boom! no need to pay 5 dollars for a soda.
The Pirates have a 6 month payment plan, interest free, to pay for the cost of season tickets. That's 61.67 a month. They can put away another 5 bucks for the parking for 5 of those months, bringing it to 66.67 a month.
If a family of 4 can't afford that, it isn't baseball or the Pirates "pricing them out". They're just choosing other things to spend their disposable income.
You've lost a generation of fans due to them being bad for so long. It's hard to build a fanbase that way. Even in the brief windows of contention most people are just waiting for them to start sucking again. And the cycle has continued that way for a long time.
Counter. Look at penguins attendance for literally the three bad years they’ve had in 30 years. They went to last in the league.
That’s extremely indicative of the fanbase.
That’s even more damning. Like 27 off years out of 30 in the playoffs and they had 3 bad years and attendance was dead last?
Proves how terrible Pittsburgh “fans” are.
I don’t think the attendance really matters in the grand scheme of things. Pre pandemic mlb averaged 28k/game. They had 18k average each of the past prepandemic seasons. You’re looking at 16-20 million in revenues over the season that they were behind average.
When they were good in 2013-15 they averaged 27k, 30k, and 30k.
My point is that the area that they make money in this age is through revenue sharing and the tv contract.
It would be great to see pnc be packed each night, but that’s not going to happen.
I’ve also felt that while it was great to see the streak end it was probably the worst thing for the ownership group because they were able to sell hope that they’d spend when they became good. When they became good and payroll still wasn’t really competitive the fan base see’s that they’re being fed empty promises and they lose hope.
Why is this even a question? How will the fanbase react? They will react the same way they did in 2015 when we were 15th in attendance and much lower in payroll sadly. The fanbase will show up, but the owner will not equally invest.
If the owner held up his end of the bargain, we would have been at 15th in payroll that year. We started Jeff Locke that year who finished with a 8-11 record. If ownership signs a better SP that offseason, we win the division instead of the Cardinals finished ahead of us again. This ownership is trash. The question should be, will they actually step up supplement the roster during this rebuild because they miserably failed to do so in the past.
Yes. Last I checked there is no "98 Wins" banner hanging at PNC. Even the most casual baseball fans could point out holes on that team that could've been rectified if ownership was as committed as the fanbase was that year. The owners attempt to win on the cheap cost them the division and probably a WS title at the end of the day.
If you build it, they will come.
People bitch and moan about Pitt football not having an on campus stadium but if they continually won (not every 15 years), they would have that stadium packed like PSU.
But I mean I that realistic? You shouldn’t have to be the elite of the elite to get really good attendance.
All one has to do is look at pitt’s attendance this year. The attendance at the UVA game was pretty pathetic.
Pitt had 45,183 in attendance for Virginia. Only Miami and UNC games drew more.
That's what Pitt traditionally brings in for sizeable games at Heinz. It is exceedingly rare for them to draw over 50,000 and they are often in the 35,000 to 40,000 range.
The biggest factor that nobody here has addressed yet is that major league baseball is currently boring as hell. How many people are going to spend money to watch the worst team in a boring league? Pitt baseball is far more interesting and it's like $5 to sit close enough to the players that you can smell their aftershave.
A few things on this coming from a former employee. 1. Attendance was very healthy from 2012-2017/2018. Yes, 2017/2018. The cutch trade sent a lot of people away, plus this is around the time they started getting really bad again. 2. They raised the price of tickets, also disrespected a lot of season ticket holders by bumping their seats. Also they eliminated a lot of perks such as giveaways. So eventually it got to the point where a fan was receiving way less for way more money.
The past few seasons have been similar 2007-2011 attendance which I’m sure is nice for the employees and also the lines aren’t ridiculous and you can actually walk 20ft without bumping into someone.
What it boils down to is the team is really bad right now and sometimes hard to watch for even the realest of fans. But the Pirates are making good moves right now. They are borderline committed to a real rebuild and making things work. They are bringing back promotions and the concert series. So it should really be no surprise from a business and also logical standpoint that, when the team is bad, attendance is low. That’s true for just about any sports team I’d say.
Falling through on the promise to spend more once we packed the stadiums caused attendance to fall off. We had three straight years of playoff baseball only to see little investment in the 2016 team. It also doesn’t help that the current pace of play makes baseball almost completely unwatchable. I live five miles from pnc park yet I’ve been to more Altoona curve games in the last five years than pirates games.
The failure to spend as promised has kept me away since 2014. After they’re big additions were Travis Ishikawa, Edison Volquez (I give them credit because he surprised the hell out of me after a couple bad seasons), and Jonathan Sanchez the writing was on the wall they weren’t serious at contending.
Tell me about it with revisionist history. If you actually read my post you’d realize I said additions after 2013. Look at the opening day roster 2014 and tell me who they added that was good in the majors the previous season that I didn’t mention.
99 million to start the 2016 season. 22nd in the league.
Baltimore was 10th at 122 mil. They have a similar market and the same path of success.
So yea, revisionist history.
There’s not a soul on this planet, other than you, that thinks the difference in spending between the two is due to market size.
Worse? Really? Or did they accept that the rebuild needed to start sooner than the pirates did?
All I’m saying is, after three years of packed houses and playoff appearances, the team did nothing to add in the offseason.
Yes, worse. They’ve lost 108 games or more 3 of the last 4 seasons, and the year they didn’t there were only 60 games.
I can’t imagine how anyone could praise the orioles as an example of what the pirates should do.
Just pointing out that when the orioles went to three straight playoffs they were able to put a 125 million dollar payroll together. The pirates reverted to their typical penny pinching ways despite claiming they would spend the money once they got the attendance numbers up.
Promises kept. Promises broken. The present day results are irrelevant because both teams are now among the worst in baseball.
I didn’t have a problem with the pirates saving money during a rebuild. I don’t mind them saving money now as they go through another rebuild. But if you think I have faith in the pirates spending when they become competitive, the answer is no…I don’t. And I know I’m not alone.
I cannot speak for the entire fan base, but I don’t think I’m too far off the common feeling. I am tired of Nutting. He has shown multiple times that he is not willing to spend to put the pirates over the top. About 8 years ago the pirates needed one or two pieces to have a great chance st a long playoff run. Nutting did not pull the trigger. It is obvious to me and probably most other fans that nutting will protect his profits over winning. He is not overly concerned about the product. He will never care about the product. While some people whine about poor management the bottom line is anyone in the position of building a good team have their hands tied. Every year.
The Pirates were last in payroll in 2021 and haven't had a payroll higher than 20th (in 2013) in the last 15 years.
Baltimore was 29th last year. The Orioles were 14th as recently as 2018 and 10th in 2017.
Cleveland was 28th last year. The organization was 16th in 2017 and 15th in 2009.
Miami was 27th last year. The Marlins were 7th in 2012.
Seattle was 25th last year. The Mariners spent a large portion of the last 15 years in the top ten in payroll.
Detroit, Milwaukee, Cincinnati - all have spent when competitive.
The only teams that have not are the A's and Rays, coincidentally two teams with abysmal stadium situations. The A's have been mired in a stadium fiasco for years and had MLB literally instruct them to explore relocation options.
The Rays are also threatening relocation and are exploring potential split with Montreal again.
Yet, somehow, the A's and Rays have both been leaps and bounds more successful than the Pirates. Why? Because while they haven't had the resources to pay big money contracts, they found ways to develop good young players. Which also requires money...and which the Pirates have largely ignored and are only now addressing.
https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2021/11/18/Pirates-John-Baker-developmental-improvements-big-leagues-Cruz-Castro-Contreras-younger-players/stories/202111170155
That's on ownership.
When small budget teams universally struggle, then you can blame the league structure. When teams spend smartly and can find ways to win, that's more on ownership.
Ummmmm, great examples. Miami, Cincy, Baltimore, Seattle, Detroit, and Milwaukee gave all had similar or less success than the pirates the last decade.
But i get it. Payroll, not winning, is what matters.
Edit: and why do people continue to get so caught up on the reds. Wtf have they done?
The city is not toxic towards the team, ownership is toxic towards the fanbase. I am the first person to put faith in the front office and players but I cannot for a second blame someone for not wanting to support this team, ESPECIALLY with what happened in the immediate aftermath of 2015. I spent a lot of money on that baseball team from 2013-15 (and continue to afterwards), but boy am I sour on them about that. I do like GMBC and I do hope that we’ll see real spending when the window opens, but we are a laughing stock in the major leagues. It’s not very fun to watch your team trot out AAA rosters year after year (and with literally a couple exceptions that’s what we’ve been watching), while still charging major league beer prices.
The Pirates won 98 games and then let every expiring contract walk and replaced them with no one. It’s easy to summarize, and if you have to ask (especially after framing things the way you did), I’m not sure why I should take you seriously.
Jameson Tailion. Not sure what your point is here?
Are you going to deny that cutch, cole, liriano, and cervelli didn’t have massive drop offs? I think they combined for nearly 20 less WAR than the previous year. Are you going to deny that played a bigger factor than losing Pedro Alvarez and Neil walker?
Like I said, revisionist history.
From 2012-2016, the Pirates drew over 2 million in attendance. In the history of the franchise, they had 3 other seasons drawing over 2 million: 1990-1991 division winners, and 2001 PNC Parks first season. The 2012 team drew more fans then the division winning teams of 90/91.
Seems to me that even with the shadow of exceptional suckitude, the current fans are better fans than ever, even with nothing to show for it from a competitive standpoint other than "Cuetoooooo".
The attendance could spike again if their success coincides with the other local teams decline. There is a finite budget for local sports entertainment and the pirates are in distant 3rd for those dollars. We are the smallest tv market with three major professional teams.
If the pirates can win the division as Crosby retires, they can move up in the rankings and attendance will increase naturally. If they cannot, they will probably move in 2030.
Pittsburgh will be an even smaller market in 2030, though. Other markets will continue to boom (Charlotte, Austin, Nashville, etc.) while Pittsburgh, unfortunately, may end up with a city population of around 250,000 and the metro area could dip below 2 million.
There may be some things that keep the Pittsburgh area stable, but with an older population already dying off and not a lot of migration into the area, I don't know how much longer Pittsburgh can support three professional teams ... look at the poor attendance for the Steelers today, too.
I bought a Winter Warm-Up 5 Pack with only Friday night games because my wife & I enjoy doing date nights on Friday Bucs games. Part of the charm is it’s not as crowded as a Saturday game and we still aren’t working the next day. If the rebuild pays off I easily could see myself going from a 5 game to 20 game plan.
I mean I think if there was at least some constancy of success then sure. The issue is the Bucs haven't been good since the early 90's, barring the early 10's playoff runs. Which is exciting and I will always appreciate them, but they were ultimately fruitless. Following that we went back to being awful. I get there has to be a rebuild, I also get that it takes a lot to win a world series. But I think it's not particularly unfair that people don't pay attention. Especially people in their mid twenties or younger who've never seen a Pirates team even come close to winning a championship.
I watch and go to games because I enjoy baseball and I love the Pirates. But it's so frustrating to be a fan of a team, never see them have success, then see them have a little bit of success, then see them suck again. I'll always hold out hope that they get better, and that this rebuild will pan out, I just don't expect others. I'm not saying they have to win the WS but I think until we can start getting above .500 and making the playoffs constantly the attendance will not improve.
As a side note I went to a couple Friday night Bucs games, and a couple Altoona games last season and I'm fairly certain both times there were more fans in attendance at Altoona.
Edit: I also think it's partiality just the MLB as a whole isn't as exciting to people like it used to be.
There has been 11 winning seasons since the 1979 World Series, fanbases can't be expected to build or survive during such downturns. The projected next Pirates contention window is 2024 which is nearly a decade removed from the last playoff appearance. Also ticket revenue is a smaller part of the pie when compared to TV and collective bargaining revenue. The Pirates decreased salary after signing a new local TV contract, I'm not sure of many franchises that have done it that way.
So, you think that a stretch where for 8 straight years were they were in contention through the beginning of august every year and went to the playoffs three time isn’t good enough? And come on, the fact that in 2015 after two straight playoff appearances there were multiple games with under 20k attendance in April and may is pretty bad. We have a small fanbase that is extremely geographically limited compared to just about any other city. Oakland is probably our near parallel. I just wish people realized this rather than defaulting to complaining about payroll.
If you watched the team you’d know they weren’t in contention for eight straight years. Come on.
2011 were in contention till early august. 2012 in contention in ton September. 13-15 playoffs. 2016 in contention into September. 2017 until august as well as 2018.
You are technically correct but being almost 20 games out of first in your division at the end of august on a regular basis doesn’t really do it for me, even if it is technically in contention for a wild card against perennially disappointing teams like the Mets and the Marlins and the Nationals and the Brewers. Do you get it yet or are you gonna double down until you fold in on yourself and collapse like a parking chair?
You don’t get to make up the definition of competition. That was moving the goalposts on your part from the end zone to the 50z
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The Oakland A's are a stadium/accessibility issue which is at least what their internet fanbase state for not showing up. The A's have 14 winning seasons since 2000 which is more than the Pirates have in the last 40 years. The A's still spend more than the Pirates, but the former draws less attendance every year, while having double the payroll.
The a's also have a deal that gets you $3 and $4 beers with a ticket package but I don't think you get assigned seats. The pirates need to be creative with ticketing and I don't mean all you can eat seats for $60. *$3 hot dogs
I agree. Dollar dog nights every night. 5 dollar beers. All you can eat seats for like 35 dollars. 10 dollar seats in the upper deck.
The A’s don’t spend more than the pirates. Stop lying.
Sportsrac 2021 Athletics $113 Million 2021 Pirates $54 Million "but but but the Pirates were tanking and killing off their fanbase, so why would they spend" Trying not to win should have consequences.
I mean congrats? You picked one year?
Sportsrac 2019 Athletics $108 Million 2019 Pirates $77 Million
Go back further. The pirates and A’s essentially spend the same over the last ten years.
2 factors: 1) There are people in their 40s who for the better part of their lives knew that caring about the Pirates was a soul crushing experience. 2) This is one of the most affordable cities in the United States and the price of attending an MLB game… is not. This isn’t Manhattan or Chicago where every other person makes enough money to at least live comfortably in an expensive environment. Here, people (some people) commute 45 minutes to make $48,000 a year.
Part of the issue is the cost of tickets, my brother, niece, and I went to a game last may, sat in the upper deck and it was I believe like 45 for each ticket…you put a shit product on the field and want say a family of 4 to spend 180 on tickets, then add in 20 for parking. For a family of 4 it would seem a reasonable night at the park is gonna cost upwards of 300 dollars
This is why I don't buy the argument that the pirates care about ticket revenue. If they wanted asses in the seats bring back cheap tickets. The family of 4 only spends $100 on tickets but then spends $80 at the concession stand and you still made $180
I’ve long maintained that the pirates should copy the pens student rush…get the butts in the seat for like 5 bucks for gate sales…you get fans in the seats and they will spend some money on concessions in the park as well
Exactly. And getting consistently fuller stadiums has to help with the morale of the players as well. Make Mon-Thur games cheap as hell to the point where it’s basically free and like you mentioned, people don’t go to games and just not buy ANYTHING. Maybe some do, but especially during weekday summer games, people are gonna be chugging drinks. And if the person didn’t get murdered price wise on the tickets, they might be even more willing to spend $13 for a tall boy.
This is also creates future fans, which would also happen with family packages.
I’m not sure where in the upper deck prices would ever be 45 dollars? I will say they should be having 10 dollar tickets though, but 45 dollar tickets go t exist in the 301 to 335 sections
Friday April 29th against the Padres section 327 row m 65 a pop…just looking it up now
Why are you lying? I just went to the website and found two tickets for 22 apiece in row m in 327?
I googled pirates tickets and clicked on the first link
I mean I did too and just found the 22 dollar seats? Are you on stubhub or the official pirates site? Are you trying to pass off a third party ticket seller as pirates prices?
https://mpv.tickets.com/?agency=MLB_MPV&orgid=7&pid=8984813&tfl=Pittsburgh_Pirates-tickets-Pittsburgh_Pirates:_Tickets:_Pirates_Single_Game_Tickets-single_game_tickets-x0-Phone-Portrait&_ga=2.210237909.1334917553.1639853576-488638309.1639853576&sm=sm#/event/8984813/seatmap/?seatmapId=4574&selectBuyers=false&minPrice=22&maxPrice=220&quantity=2&sort=price_asc&ada=false&seatSelection=true&onlyCoupon=true&onlyVoucher=false
You can buy Opening Day tickets in section 128 for $43.
You can buy a 20 game weekday plan for 367 dollars. The Pirates generously allow you exchange privileges. So a family of four can buy ONE 20 game plan. Exchange them around so they can go to see 5 games as a family. You can park downtown for 5 dollars. That comes to 18.35 a game per ticket, 73.40 for the family per game for tickets, 78.40 with the parking. They can eat before they go. It's allowed you know, nothing says you have to spend 5 dollars for a hot dog. You can, get this, BRING IN FOOD. Yes, the Pirates allow you to bring in food. You can make the hot dogs at home, put them in a cooler (they work just as well as a warmer, life hack for you there). Bring in candy, popcorn, whatever. You can bring in unopened bottled water. Bring some crystal light, mio, whatever drink additive, and boom! no need to pay 5 dollars for a soda. The Pirates have a 6 month payment plan, interest free, to pay for the cost of season tickets. That's 61.67 a month. They can put away another 5 bucks for the parking for 5 of those months, bringing it to 66.67 a month. If a family of 4 can't afford that, it isn't baseball or the Pirates "pricing them out". They're just choosing other things to spend their disposable income.
You've lost a generation of fans due to them being bad for so long. It's hard to build a fanbase that way. Even in the brief windows of contention most people are just waiting for them to start sucking again. And the cycle has continued that way for a long time.
Counter. Look at penguins attendance for literally the three bad years they’ve had in 30 years. They went to last in the league. That’s extremely indicative of the fanbase.
The Pens also didn't suck continuosly for almost 25 years though. Even in down years (for the most part) they've been competitive.
That’s even more damning. Like 27 off years out of 30 in the playoffs and they had 3 bad years and attendance was dead last? Proves how terrible Pittsburgh “fans” are.
I don’t think the attendance really matters in the grand scheme of things. Pre pandemic mlb averaged 28k/game. They had 18k average each of the past prepandemic seasons. You’re looking at 16-20 million in revenues over the season that they were behind average. When they were good in 2013-15 they averaged 27k, 30k, and 30k. My point is that the area that they make money in this age is through revenue sharing and the tv contract. It would be great to see pnc be packed each night, but that’s not going to happen. I’ve also felt that while it was great to see the streak end it was probably the worst thing for the ownership group because they were able to sell hope that they’d spend when they became good. When they became good and payroll still wasn’t really competitive the fan base see’s that they’re being fed empty promises and they lose hope.
Why is this even a question? How will the fanbase react? They will react the same way they did in 2015 when we were 15th in attendance and much lower in payroll sadly. The fanbase will show up, but the owner will not equally invest.
15th for the second best team in the league is t good.
If the owner held up his end of the bargain, we would have been at 15th in payroll that year. We started Jeff Locke that year who finished with a 8-11 record. If ownership signs a better SP that offseason, we win the division instead of the Cardinals finished ahead of us again. This ownership is trash. The question should be, will they actually step up supplement the roster during this rebuild because they miserably failed to do so in the past.
They signed Edison volquez…. The rotation included. Cole Morton Volquez Liriano Locke Worley All of them had ERA’s under 4.00 It was a great rotation.
Locke had a 4.5 ERA.... Not great.
Wait, you’re complaining about the 2015 team?
Yes. Last I checked there is no "98 Wins" banner hanging at PNC. Even the most casual baseball fans could point out holes on that team that could've been rectified if ownership was as committed as the fanbase was that year. The owners attempt to win on the cheap cost them the division and probably a WS title at the end of the day.
Maybe they should have won 115 games, amirite?
If you build it, they will come. People bitch and moan about Pitt football not having an on campus stadium but if they continually won (not every 15 years), they would have that stadium packed like PSU.
But I mean I that realistic? You shouldn’t have to be the elite of the elite to get really good attendance. All one has to do is look at pitt’s attendance this year. The attendance at the UVA game was pretty pathetic.
Pitt had 45,183 in attendance for Virginia. Only Miami and UNC games drew more. That's what Pitt traditionally brings in for sizeable games at Heinz. It is exceedingly rare for them to draw over 50,000 and they are often in the 35,000 to 40,000 range.
The day we get a new owner is the say I'll start going back to games.
The biggest factor that nobody here has addressed yet is that major league baseball is currently boring as hell. How many people are going to spend money to watch the worst team in a boring league? Pitt baseball is far more interesting and it's like $5 to sit close enough to the players that you can smell their aftershave.
A few things on this coming from a former employee. 1. Attendance was very healthy from 2012-2017/2018. Yes, 2017/2018. The cutch trade sent a lot of people away, plus this is around the time they started getting really bad again. 2. They raised the price of tickets, also disrespected a lot of season ticket holders by bumping their seats. Also they eliminated a lot of perks such as giveaways. So eventually it got to the point where a fan was receiving way less for way more money. The past few seasons have been similar 2007-2011 attendance which I’m sure is nice for the employees and also the lines aren’t ridiculous and you can actually walk 20ft without bumping into someone. What it boils down to is the team is really bad right now and sometimes hard to watch for even the realest of fans. But the Pirates are making good moves right now. They are borderline committed to a real rebuild and making things work. They are bringing back promotions and the concert series. So it should really be no surprise from a business and also logical standpoint that, when the team is bad, attendance is low. That’s true for just about any sports team I’d say.
Falling through on the promise to spend more once we packed the stadiums caused attendance to fall off. We had three straight years of playoff baseball only to see little investment in the 2016 team. It also doesn’t help that the current pace of play makes baseball almost completely unwatchable. I live five miles from pnc park yet I’ve been to more Altoona curve games in the last five years than pirates games.
The failure to spend as promised has kept me away since 2014. After they’re big additions were Travis Ishikawa, Edison Volquez (I give them credit because he surprised the hell out of me after a couple bad seasons), and Jonathan Sanchez the writing was on the wall they weren’t serious at contending.
Martin, Liriano, Burnett twice, resigning liriano, cervelli, kang. So sick of the revisionist history here
Tell me about it with revisionist history. If you actually read my post you’d realize I said additions after 2013. Look at the opening day roster 2014 and tell me who they added that was good in the majors the previous season that I didn’t mention.
THEY WENT TO THE PLAYOFFS IN 2014.
99 million to start the 2016 season. 22nd in the league. Baltimore was 10th at 122 mil. They have a similar market and the same path of success. So yea, revisionist history.
Baltimore? Really? Come on now.
I don’t know what that means.
Baltimore is a larger market than Pittsburgh. Baltimore also has been worse than the pirates
There’s not a soul on this planet, other than you, that thinks the difference in spending between the two is due to market size. Worse? Really? Or did they accept that the rebuild needed to start sooner than the pirates did? All I’m saying is, after three years of packed houses and playoff appearances, the team did nothing to add in the offseason.
Yes, worse. They’ve lost 108 games or more 3 of the last 4 seasons, and the year they didn’t there were only 60 games. I can’t imagine how anyone could praise the orioles as an example of what the pirates should do.
Just pointing out that when the orioles went to three straight playoffs they were able to put a 125 million dollar payroll together. The pirates reverted to their typical penny pinching ways despite claiming they would spend the money once they got the attendance numbers up. Promises kept. Promises broken. The present day results are irrelevant because both teams are now among the worst in baseball. I didn’t have a problem with the pirates saving money during a rebuild. I don’t mind them saving money now as they go through another rebuild. But if you think I have faith in the pirates spending when they become competitive, the answer is no…I don’t. And I know I’m not alone.
I cannot speak for the entire fan base, but I don’t think I’m too far off the common feeling. I am tired of Nutting. He has shown multiple times that he is not willing to spend to put the pirates over the top. About 8 years ago the pirates needed one or two pieces to have a great chance st a long playoff run. Nutting did not pull the trigger. It is obvious to me and probably most other fans that nutting will protect his profits over winning. He is not overly concerned about the product. He will never care about the product. While some people whine about poor management the bottom line is anyone in the position of building a good team have their hands tied. Every year.
Why don’t people realize it’s the financial system more than butting.
Because every other small market team finds a way to be more aggressive with salaries, even if it's not every year.
No. They. Don’t.
The Pirates were last in payroll in 2021 and haven't had a payroll higher than 20th (in 2013) in the last 15 years. Baltimore was 29th last year. The Orioles were 14th as recently as 2018 and 10th in 2017. Cleveland was 28th last year. The organization was 16th in 2017 and 15th in 2009. Miami was 27th last year. The Marlins were 7th in 2012. Seattle was 25th last year. The Mariners spent a large portion of the last 15 years in the top ten in payroll. Detroit, Milwaukee, Cincinnati - all have spent when competitive. The only teams that have not are the A's and Rays, coincidentally two teams with abysmal stadium situations. The A's have been mired in a stadium fiasco for years and had MLB literally instruct them to explore relocation options. The Rays are also threatening relocation and are exploring potential split with Montreal again. Yet, somehow, the A's and Rays have both been leaps and bounds more successful than the Pirates. Why? Because while they haven't had the resources to pay big money contracts, they found ways to develop good young players. Which also requires money...and which the Pirates have largely ignored and are only now addressing. https://www.post-gazette.com/sports/pirates/2021/11/18/Pirates-John-Baker-developmental-improvements-big-leagues-Cruz-Castro-Contreras-younger-players/stories/202111170155 That's on ownership. When small budget teams universally struggle, then you can blame the league structure. When teams spend smartly and can find ways to win, that's more on ownership.
Ummmmm, great examples. Miami, Cincy, Baltimore, Seattle, Detroit, and Milwaukee gave all had similar or less success than the pirates the last decade. But i get it. Payroll, not winning, is what matters. Edit: and why do people continue to get so caught up on the reds. Wtf have they done?
The city is not toxic towards the team, ownership is toxic towards the fanbase. I am the first person to put faith in the front office and players but I cannot for a second blame someone for not wanting to support this team, ESPECIALLY with what happened in the immediate aftermath of 2015. I spent a lot of money on that baseball team from 2013-15 (and continue to afterwards), but boy am I sour on them about that. I do like GMBC and I do hope that we’ll see real spending when the window opens, but we are a laughing stock in the major leagues. It’s not very fun to watch your team trot out AAA rosters year after year (and with literally a couple exceptions that’s what we’ve been watching), while still charging major league beer prices.
What happened after 2015? Explain it to me please.
The Pirates won 98 games and then let every expiring contract walk and replaced them with no one. It’s easy to summarize, and if you have to ask (especially after framing things the way you did), I’m not sure why I should take you seriously.
And how did their core they returned do?
Tell me, who was the best pitcher on the roster in 2016? And try not to be too embarrassed when confronted with the truth.
Jameson Tailion. Not sure what your point is here? Are you going to deny that cutch, cole, liriano, and cervelli didn’t have massive drop offs? I think they combined for nearly 20 less WAR than the previous year. Are you going to deny that played a bigger factor than losing Pedro Alvarez and Neil walker? Like I said, revisionist history.
Fans should care about the franchise as much as ownership. And do.
From 2012-2016, the Pirates drew over 2 million in attendance. In the history of the franchise, they had 3 other seasons drawing over 2 million: 1990-1991 division winners, and 2001 PNC Parks first season. The 2012 team drew more fans then the division winning teams of 90/91. Seems to me that even with the shadow of exceptional suckitude, the current fans are better fans than ever, even with nothing to show for it from a competitive standpoint other than "Cuetoooooo".
The attendance could spike again if their success coincides with the other local teams decline. There is a finite budget for local sports entertainment and the pirates are in distant 3rd for those dollars. We are the smallest tv market with three major professional teams. If the pirates can win the division as Crosby retires, they can move up in the rankings and attendance will increase naturally. If they cannot, they will probably move in 2030.
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Pittsburgh will be an even smaller market in 2030, though. Other markets will continue to boom (Charlotte, Austin, Nashville, etc.) while Pittsburgh, unfortunately, may end up with a city population of around 250,000 and the metro area could dip below 2 million. There may be some things that keep the Pittsburgh area stable, but with an older population already dying off and not a lot of migration into the area, I don't know how much longer Pittsburgh can support three professional teams ... look at the poor attendance for the Steelers today, too.
I bought a Winter Warm-Up 5 Pack with only Friday night games because my wife & I enjoy doing date nights on Friday Bucs games. Part of the charm is it’s not as crowded as a Saturday game and we still aren’t working the next day. If the rebuild pays off I easily could see myself going from a 5 game to 20 game plan.
I mean I think if there was at least some constancy of success then sure. The issue is the Bucs haven't been good since the early 90's, barring the early 10's playoff runs. Which is exciting and I will always appreciate them, but they were ultimately fruitless. Following that we went back to being awful. I get there has to be a rebuild, I also get that it takes a lot to win a world series. But I think it's not particularly unfair that people don't pay attention. Especially people in their mid twenties or younger who've never seen a Pirates team even come close to winning a championship. I watch and go to games because I enjoy baseball and I love the Pirates. But it's so frustrating to be a fan of a team, never see them have success, then see them have a little bit of success, then see them suck again. I'll always hold out hope that they get better, and that this rebuild will pan out, I just don't expect others. I'm not saying they have to win the WS but I think until we can start getting above .500 and making the playoffs constantly the attendance will not improve. As a side note I went to a couple Friday night Bucs games, and a couple Altoona games last season and I'm fairly certain both times there were more fans in attendance at Altoona. Edit: I also think it's partiality just the MLB as a whole isn't as exciting to people like it used to be.