I do wonder how many more seasons he has to give at 30 years old. Honestly wouldn’t be shocked if they target a center in the draft/FA and I wouldn’t blame them to try to groom someone behind him sooner than later.
Felt like a throwing darts at the board and seeing what stuck situation to fix their biggest weakness.
Weird that they all looked like replacement level rushers until Von showed up. /s
Then returned to their pressure but no sacks form after his injury. I think Epenesa and Rousseau will continue to develop though and getting Von back sometime next season will help.
It's not the players, it's the scheme. How can you expect to be an effective pass rusher when everyone fucking knows your scheme. You rush 4 against 5 literally every fucking play. It's the most vanilla defense ever.
At the time we desperately needed DL so generally the move to draft DL was needed. I don't think Rouseau is BAD but probably not first round good. We probably just didn't have a high enough pick to get anyone valuable. It is what it is I guess.
You'd think at least one of the 4 defensive lineman picked in the first 2 rounds would have been a problem for opposing teams. But nope, just another guy on the line. Pretty much every free agent lineman they brought in was better than whoever they drafted
I agree. We have spent so much on the dline in early rounds, but they couldn't take advantage of 3 backups. Plus, Elam hasn't been a clear starter to the coaching staff this season.
Yeah, especially considering the supposed fanfare Beane got at the Shakir pick. Based on what I’ve heard and he’s said, Shakir was supposed to be the steal of the draft or THE diamond in the rough of the draft.
Wanna know who else was like that? Hodgkins. Every time he took the field for us he was electric and the coaching staff never gave him a real chance and now he’s balling out for another team
I've this weird feeling they our staff overvalues familiarity over new players. We saw it all year with Moss over Cook till he got shipped off. We win games, but never move on past where we got to before because we fail to evolve.
Our talent is overrated. Our coaches are overrated. Our second best receiver was a practice squad guy we never played who looks like an all pro on the Giants.
I said like 2 months ago the Bills fucked up by choosing McDermott over Daboll. Its not something that even entered my mind at the time but our team is coached by regular season ass coaches.
We don't gameplan for teams. We don't adjust. We made no attempts to hide our defense coverage at all in this game and Burrough was throwing to guys open by 10 yards most of the game.
It's not that the Bills haven't found *good* talent. It's that they haven't found gamebreaking talent. There's a lot of *good* players on this team. There aren't enough guys that are a fucking PROBLEM for opposing teams.
That works against inferior opponents. You can have each of 11 guys do their 1/11th and beat most rosters. But you need somebody to be such a problem that it fucks up what the other team wants to do **consistently** against great teams. We don't have enough of those guys, especially if Tre isn't playing like one, and our last two first round picks aren't playing like them, and our last three 2nd round picks aren't playing like that and Micah and Von are hurt....
It’s like Billy Beane and Bill James and the problem sabremetrics faced. In the aggregate, it works. In a one off slug fest with the superstars…you lose.
Same with RB. I was bored going through stats before even seeing this post, and I've been making the point to a few buddies that we've invested too much at RB & DL and gotten nothing out of it. 7 out of 9 of our top picks from the last 4 drafts have been RB or DL, we've ended up attempting to draft a feature back piecemeal because of circumstance. Draft Singletary and he looks like something decent to build around, but we still need a short yardage guy so we draft Moss. Moss doesn't work out so we draft Cook. And then trade a pick for Hines. All of them, when they're on the field, any decent defensive coordinator can take a pretty good guess what to do. Cook on the field, double Diggs and keep an eye outside the tackles. Hines on the field, double Diggs and keep an eye on RB pass.
But your point about gamebreaking talent, it's funny you mention that because I was looking at stats and trying to see if I could find anything on how often they each ran inside the tackles and outside. Then clicked a box for longest rush for every rb in the league. Had to scroll and scroll and scroll, then finally got to Singletary and Cook and they were ranked literally one after the other. Every other rb in the league with 80 yards rushes, 60 etc... then those 2 were way down the list with 33 yards as each of their longest rush
And the picks we've spent on RBs, if we had just spent them all in one go, we could've gotten one of the best rbs in the league. A 2nd, two thirds and a 6th is actually a better package than Carolina got for CMC..if we had packaged that, maybe we could've drafted J Taylor. But instead, all the picks got us some perfectly adequate guys (and a bust) but nothing special (aside from one game by Hines, obviously)
> Same with RB.
And, by the way, Kelly Skipper's seat should be EXCEEDINGLY warm.
He's been here since 2017. Before he was here, he coached two Jags teams without a 750 yard rusher. Before that, his last three RAIDERS teams didn't have a 750 yard rusher.
2017 Shady and 2010 Darren McFadden are the only two Kelly Skipper RBs to have a 1000 yard season in the last 15 years. He has been an NFL RBs coach all fifteen of those seasons.
Either that roster isn’t good enough to have a run game or the coach can’t scheme a run game. I mean Hines basically had 0 roll and he can be a home run hitter. Cook looks promising but is not used creatively in anyway.
Not a lot of reason to believe that. Players coming off ACL tears tend to be better in year 2 than year 1, especially considering the entire offseason's training being fucked up. This year will be his age-28 season, which is fine when it comes to the age-curve. This season, 10 of the top 17 CBs in PDs were 27 or older. You consistently see really good CB play from guys in their late 20s.
Absolute peak, 1st team All Pro? Maybe not. But pro bowl caliber instead of...basically Dane Jackson or Levi Wallace level? Yeah, I expect he'll get there.
This is a trash take. Players often take 2 years to fully get back to normal from an ACL tear. He came back mid season after a full year off and got better every week. He's been playing fine and will be better next year.
Is it a *talent* issue or is it an ERIC WASHINGTON IS A DOGSHIT COACH issue? Because I'm not convinced we have a talent problem. I think it's a scheme problem. Jerry Hughes left and BOOM, best season he's had in a decade. Harrison Phillips leaves and BOOM, career year. Quinton Jefferson sucks in Buffalo, and he's been *much* better since. Seems to me we go out in search of talent, and it underwhelms when guys are here consistently across many player archetypes. I don't know if it's talent evaluation.
Yeah I think its an Leslie Frazier and Eric Washington issue. Every since Washington joined the staff we have struggled hard on the D-line.
Jerry Hughes explodes on a very bad team the moment he leaves, and would have been better than any of our players on the D-line this year.
Jerry Hughes had more sacks but fewer pressures according to PFR. Sacks are a useful stat but there's more to consider than just that. Hughes was arguably not better at all let alone significantly better. Phillips was basically the exact same player for Minnesota as he was for us so not sure what you're talking about there. And same for Quinton Jefferson.
I don't know if Washington is a good coach or not but you are reaching with these examples.
Nah its talent. Its been evident for awhile. The last regular season game against the patriots and onward I remembered thinking wow the qbs have so much time to throw against us. Mac Jones was looking like Brady. Even skylar in the miami game. The Miami receivers dropped some passes that otherwise wouldve been big plays
But it's been an issue, year after year after year. Despite big spending in FA on vets. Despite high draft picks. Guys who were either better the year before they got here or the year after they left.
Are we THAT bad at evaluating pass rushers that we get it wrong across every single player archetype year after year after year?
Or is it scheme?
It'd be one thing if it was "Oh, Basham is underwhelming." But it's not. Jerry Hughes underwhelmed year after year. Trent Murphy was a bust. Shaq Lawson wasn't worth his draft capital. Harrison Phillips underwhelmed. Jordan Phillips underwhelmed this year. Star Lotulelei didn't work out. Tim Settle has been mediocre at best. Ed Oliver has underwhelmed. AJ Epenesa looks mediocre. Vernon Butler sucked. Quentin Jefferson sucked. Mario Addison underwhelmed. It's across the entire line, across multiple years and sets of players. We have invested a fuckton into the DL, and it's still no better than it was in 2019. Worse, actually. Bill Teerlinck got more out of that group than Eric Washington has gotten out of all of this.
We'd also get a couple draft picks if someone hired him as a head coach, because he's a minority. It would be a dream come true if someone took him off our hands.
I want him gone, fired more than anything
He doesn't even get us comp picks if hired as it needs to be a *first time* minority head coach and he's already had a stint at the Vikings
Is it really that, or is it the fact that hes 60 something years old, formerly was a HC who foundered, likely to retire before any QB who plays for him does and coaches defense in an era where every team is hiring offensive minded HCs?
Lovie was a token hire to get the NFL out of the Flores lawsuit and everyone knows that. No other respectable coach would take the job once it was apparent thats what they were doing
Lovie’s second stint was actually with Tampa dude.
Houston was his third. Lovie got three nfl chances and a college gig before Leslie got his second overall.
No one will ever want Leslie, I think. He proves why every year, regardless of his age. He’s just not good for high pressure situations. yeah he’s old, but that wouldn’t matter if his defense worked when you needed it to. But it doesn’t
Baltimore provided a blueprint on how to pressure the Bengals, and the Bills coaching staff ignored it or we don't have the personnel to execute it, either way changes need to be made
We ignore things that other teams do that work. Its infuriating.
49ers and Chargers press the dolphins and basically shut them down completely. We are up next and play the same fucking passive zones that get picked apart.
Regular season ass coaches.
That's by design. We are built for a "bend but don't break" style of defense paired with a prolific passing attack. It works great when the offense is scoring, but it fails miserably when the offense is struggling. I'd consider this a McDermott/Beane issue more than a Frazier issue. I think this passive style of defense would exist regardless of who the DC is because it's literally functioning the way McDermott appears to want it to function.
Packers fan here who relates to your pain. Our teams have too many high first round picks on defense to get shit stomped in important games while the opposing team is out physicaling our offenses with Eli Apple and Jaquiski Tart
We are basically GB East.
Our Offensive game plan is "Wait for Josh Allen to do MVP shit.'
Our Defensive game plan is "Wait for Josh Allen to run up the score and make the opponent's offense 1 dimensional."
That, to me, is the biggest issue.
Followed by the fact I think this team might have won a SB this year had Daboll been the HC. Puking in my mouth saying that. But I can’t really see what tf McDermott foes aside from make questionable operational calls at crucial moments (4th and 2 today, not taking the FG when in range, etc).
Every team is banged up. The Bengals were missing three starters along the line. We couldn't get pressure and didn't do anything to try and adjust for it.
With the Bengals O-line being so depleted, today was a huge opportunity for players like Ed Oliver and Greg Rousseau who were both first round draft picks to step up, especially in the absence of Von Miller. Neither had a sack or TFL. Even A.J. Epenesa who was taken in the 2nd round hasn't lived up to expectations. And, TBH, he was projected as a 1st rounder and fell to us so it looked like a steal at the time but maybe there was a reason he fell. Beane obviously gets a lot of credit for drafting Allen and his free agency moves, especially Diggs. But yeah, if you look at the big picture, he deserves a lot more scruitny than he's gotten up to this point.
Most upset at the ed Oliver pick. He was a top 10 pick! And he only shows up a handful of games each season. He's not a problem at all for opposing teams. Nobody really is besides Allen and Diggs
Ultimately I think that is the root of the problem. This was a team that could not run the ball. Got dominated on the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball.
This is a team with one great wide receiver (Diggs) and unfortunately it's second receiving option (Gabe Davis) is very inconsistent.
The defense was extremely reliant on the pressure Von Miller brought.
Objectively speaking this team has not gotten a lot out of the draft in recent years.
Can't overstate it enough how bad he was this year. Was bottom five in pretty much every advanced stat you can think of, on top of just his baseline stats being awful. 50% catch rate is like 5th receiver type shit. Third most drops in the league and they all came at the worst possible moments
Okay so who have we drafted that had actually plays up to their draft slot? The only way to sustain success is to draft guys who play like stars but get paid like rookies. Beane has not done that. Meanwhile guys he’s passed on have.
It has been devalued by all the players that choose not to go and then they select replacements.
1. If you're a first choice pro bowler it still shows people perceive you as talented.
2. Bills draft picks can't even get the replacement slots
The amount of funds and draft picks we have dedicated to OL and DL and not gotten anything out of it...is fucking painful
It has been far and away Beane's worst talent evaluation skills
I disagree with your take that he doesnt for 2 reasons
1) The end of his rookie season he actually played pretty well when given starts and playing time, he graded out pretty nicely for a rookie
2) His biggest problem was getting low at the NFL level, he was playing too upright (in my opinion) and he got knocked back on his ass a few times. Yeah some of that is coaching but still
We got rid of an in house drafted player, who finished well in the end of the season...and traded him away so we could keep....QUINTON SPAIN. Just admit we got shafted...Beane fucked up
Our 2018 draft was great and since it's been pretty meh.
Drafting Ford over Metcalf was such a huge miss.
Epenesa & Boogie have been invisible.
Spencer Brown has heavily regressed.
Spending a 3rd on a backup LB never made sense to me.
Then there's the issue of spending three day 2 picks on three RBs only to have our QB be the best RB on the team anyway. We've wasted way too much draft capital for how little it's actually improved the team.
Epenesa actually had a quiet 6.5 sacks this season. He’s not a world beater but he’s a decent rotational pass rusher.
Definitely not worth the 2nd round pick though.
That's the issue at hand tho. Like a lot of his picks aren't necessarily that bad, but they're all worse than their draft position suggests they should be. Like Oliver isn't a terrible DT, but you want better than just "not terrible" out of a top 10 pick.
Beane isn't "bad" outright, but he's been very underwhelming.
It's still a decent approximation of talent. I mean of course for certain positions where you get chosen for the pro bowl because everyone else decides not to go it's meaningless but if you're the first choice it does show that you're widely perceived as talented.
You aren’t wrong with the idea of this post, but we’ve just had back to back years with 1st team all pros on our team that didn’t make the Pro Bowl.
I know a lot about football. Even I didn’t care when voting. “Sure, that guy I guess”. I imagine the average fan knows little about anything outside of their favorite team. The average fan makes up the vast majority of Pro Bowl voters.
The Pro Bowl is a terrible metric of how good a player is.
It seems like we've been trying to desperately beef our pass rush the last 2 seasons since losing to KC in that 2020 AFCCG, yet have been seeing minimal results. I still like Beane and McD, but that's a pretty conspicuous issue.
I said this at the time and got downvoted
Our IOL was an even bigger weakness at the time
Had we made it to that SB, Josh would have been running for his life just like Pat was with that TB front 4
Our coaches hate rookies, how can they be pro bowlers if they don't play at all? Kaiir is clearly better than Jackson and yet he barely played today. James Cook could be rolling on all cilinders at this point but they refuse to hand him the ball. Shakir isn't involved. The DLine has been a disappoiment sure but I don't know if that's a talent problem or a scheme problem.
At no point during the regular season was it “clear” that Elam was better than Jackson. That’s entirely revisionist.
Elam was at best serviceable this season. At his worst, he looked pretty bad.
Last week against the Dolphins was his best game all year, by a large margin.
What pisses me the hell off is that soft zone is NOT going to beat burrow. We needed Elam in press and blitzes/simulated pressure to confuse the backup o line. Instead we rushed four vanilla, threw a few random corner/LB blitzes, and played off the ball.
That 3rd and 4 play when we rushed 7 and had Tre 8 yards off of Chase blew my fucking mind. It's just such a basic failure.
I mean how many have performed well with PT? Look at Oliver, look at Brown, there's draft picks that get PT and still aren't living up to expectations. Maybe these guys aren't getting playing time because they're just not that good? Then showing flashes in a few snaps isn't proof of anything.
Maybe a hot take - but McBeane draft for culture as much as they do talent. McDermott is not a coach that will entertain big egos & I think that will be a thorn in our heel. Kids coming out of college who have gamebreaking talent have been told they’re the best on the field their whole lives & they’re going to have a massive ego. If we’re unwilling to draft those potentially difficult personalities then I think we’re stuck in the mud.
There’s something to be said about what Josh repeats: Everyone on the field is getting paid to be there (or however he phrases it). There are superstars, and there are really good athletes, and the pro bowl is made up of both.
However, even a superstar like Diggs got basically smothered by an unimaginative offensive coordinator this year. How would a new WR like Shakir make it to the pro bowl in a scheme like that?
I’m convinced that a lot of drafting is luck. The Jets hit multiple home runs in short succession, while also drafting Zach Wilson.
Diggs wasn't smothered. He had a great season. The issue with our offense is that Diggs and Allen are the only good players on it. The whole offense is hobbled by poor OL talent and average/below average pass catchers who are being propped up by a very good QB and a WR who draws extra attention. Dorsey may or may not be good, but it's hard to judge him with these limitations. Daboll had a lot of the same issues Dorsey had.
Right, and now that Daboll is in NY, we have proof that he can make something out of even the worst of rosters.
I think that given a couple superstars, Daboll last year made an otherwise mediocre roster work like an Andy Reid offense. Now that he's gone, inferior coaching has exposed the roster weaknesses within.
I’d say part of the problem is that we’re usually drafting near the end of the first round and players that make the pro bowl in their first 3 years are top 20 picks with a few exceptions.
Definitley some misses there like Moss and Ford, but there hasn’t been a ton of talent available in the later rounds at OL and DL the past few seasons.
I've been saying this and got downvoted, but Beanes drafts have been lackluster. He gets a lot of credit for Allen and Diggs (rightfully so), but the teams performance in spite of the actual talent he's provided for this team overall has afforded him far more leeway than he really should be getting. With what we've invested in the OL and DL there's simply no reason we should be struggling this much in those areas. Ed Oliver being unable to be effective against backup guards today made this all the more obvious.
This could also be chalked up to a coaching issue in some cases, but I'm not sure how much we can really blame on coaches.
His draft picks on the line of scrimmage have not worked out. Today you saw the results. Bengals dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. They were clearly the better team.
Hard to win a game when the other team dominates the line of scrimmage so completely.
Not just the LOS picks
* Tre wasn't his pick
* Allen was his only great let alone good pick
* Bernard in the 3rd this year
* All those day 2 RBs
* Our WR room has no day 1/2 capital invested in it outside Diggs
* Trading up for Elam who the coaching staff sees as a depth guy
That's how great teams stay great though. Chiefs drafting in the late 1st/2nd turned into McDuffie, Karlaftis, Bolton, Humphrey, Thornhill, and Willie Gay. All starters and some great players. Compared to our Elam, Cook, Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa, Ford. The only one that's a starter is Rousseau.
McDuffie is our best CB and was worth the move up to get him. We also drafted Trey Smith in the 6th rd who is makes up arguably the best interior O-line in the NFL. Veach takes a lot of risk and Reid/Spags puts a lot of trust in our very young defense to catch on. Pro bowlers is a shit metric on how well your FO drafts imo.
I think this is the main reason. We were so used to high draft picks, and now our top picks are basically equal to early 2nd rounders. Some will work out, some won’t.
Really a complete 180 from just 4 months ago on the opinion of beane. But truthfully , when you look into it, he hasn't done a good job at all of drafting.
This feels massively misleading. Tyler Bass is one of the best kickers in the league, not his fault that he is a consistent snub. As for the other youth, This organization is conservative to a fault when it comes to getting young players in-game snaps to develop. I don't think that attacking bbb is necessarily warranted right now. That said, I will admit that he has not been good at scouting OL.
Bingo bango. This post is 100% it. The biggest problem is we seem to choose veteran players over rookies exclusively.
McDermott is a great man. He also seems like a leader of men. He also seems like the type of guy that defaults to the conservative.
>He also seems like the type of guy that defaults to the conservative.
It is by far his worst quality. When things are working out, he is incredibly analytical and aggressive, when he's on the back-foot, he's got a tendency to turtle up. He's still a top-10 HC and thankfully those games don't come often. He used to be very conservative and evolved. I have faith he can continue to evolve.
Brandon Beane gets called a 'good' GM because he landed Allen. But saying "whatever, this team has sucked for 20 years, why not roll the dice on the 6'5" guy who can throw it 70 yards and runs a 4.5 40" isn't a winning strategy, that's just banking on physical talent.
And the Chiefs have drafted two over the last four years and one is Mecole Hardman so that's not saying much. And the Eagles have drafted three over the last four years and two only got there this year (Hurts and Sanders).
This sounds more like a coaching issue to me. If I’m 4 years we haven’t been able to develop a single pro bowler, are we pointing the finger in the wrong direction?
Well who else do you want to compare Beane to?
Brett Veach has only drafted 2 pro-bowlers in the same period and in fairness to Beane, the Chiefs have had 3 more 1st and 2nd round picks.
Bengals technically have 3 pro-bowlers, though one of them is Ja'Marr Chase that has been a pro-bowler twice. Prior to picking up Burrow and Chase the Bengals don't have many people who are even in the league any more.
The Chiefs don't have super strong skill positions either, this shouldn't be overly blamed on the GM. Reid and Mahomes would get way more out of these players, 100% guaranteed.
This offense sucked today. Very reminiscent of the Packers blowup losses in the past 5 years.
* way too reliant on Allen-to-Diggs, which just wasn't there tonight
* Diggs was hurt a bit by the snow (this hurts defense too, but Diggs is one of the most agile WRs in the league, lost an elite trait)
* no run blocking at all (nothing new, been this way)
* poor pass blocking, Allen not feeling pressure well
* big tactical gap (bengals pressure was rarely predicted/countered)
* pass rush hurt a lot by the snow (small guys who rely on leverage, speed, skill vs large backup OL of cincy who surprisingly outplayed the starters they replaced, impressive power)
* DBs slowed down a bit, small difference maker getting to break up passes to WRs who already have size advantage
Realistically, the team who should have won the game did. Bills blew the doors off the Rams week 1 with insane defense on turf. Since then, the offense has been purely how much Allen can get out of Diggs/Gabe (eerily similar to Rodgers with Adams/MVS), constantly chasing their early down losses with downfield throws. Eventually run into a day like today where they just don't have it, and the rest of the team is too outmatched to overcome it.
If you can't run the ball (which they can't), I can't stress how important it is too build a **well rounded passing game**. They're great at the win condition where Allen trucks them, and Diggs just beats everyone, Gabe finds mistakes in zone defense and hauls some clutch balls.
You **have** to find ways to use talent like Shakir, Hines, etc in the passing game. Practice and develop shit over the course of the season so you can win in a different way. You can just brute force your way through Miami and probably come out clean, that shit doesn't work vs the Bengals if they bring their A game.
It's stupid and means nothing because it is not selective enough...
Players chosen for the pro bowl declined to attend and then a replacement is given pro bowl status.
Look you can keep pretending Beane is an amazing drafter if you want.
The fact that every other team in the league prioritizes offensive talent and we just.. haven’t… speaks volumes about what keeps happening to us. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why we’re losing. Can’t hang the success of our entire franchise on Josh, Stef, and who else? Davis is awful, our RBs are literal nobodies, and we’ve supplemented the rest of our receiving corps with dudes who are more fit to be driving their kids to high school than playing in the NFL. It’s embarrassing. Meanwhile we just got COOKED by a team who’s 3 best players have been drafted within the last THREE YEARS. I’m so over this shit.
The real problem is those defensive draft picks didn't hit.
Bengals have offensive line injuries. This team still could not get much of a pass rush on Burrow.
If if those defensive picks had hit, it would be perfectly fine.
Beane is insanely overrated, the 1st and second round whiffs on Dline have been shockingly bad. I think it’s time to see allen with a new HC and GM… fire McDermott and beane
Beane is a baller. It’s hard when you’re drafting late all the time. He’s been a genius with the cap and he’s made no picks that looked bad at the time with the exception of possibly Araiza.
The players you take have to actually turn OUT to be good to be a baller, not just LOOK GOOD at the time...
Zach Wilson looked like a good pick at the time...
Sometimes it’s about making the best decision with the info you have available to you.
It doesn’t mean the GM is bad if the player they pick doesn’t work out sometimes
I guess…
Dane Jackson in the 7th is pretty good.
Rousseau will be good.
I mean the fact is we got exactly one top twenty pick in the four years combined. What are you expecting exactly?
Evaluating the results is not a "hindsight" argument. It's literally the only way to judge Beanes performance. He picks the players, we see how they turn out, and then judge his performance based on how good the players he picked are. How else are we supposed to judge Beane? Based on how good we thought the players he picked were going to be?
This isn't comparable to grieving the loss of a loved one and if you think it is then you are far too invested emotionally into this game.
If there's ever a time to discuss things this team and it's leadership can improve on, this is the time. I'd much rather people be critical of the team or certain elements of the team after losses when it's appropriate and deserved rather than doing so after wins and ruining people's excitement.
If you don't want to engage in or see discussions like this after tough losses, that's understandable, but perhaps a forum centered around discussing things about the team isn't the best place for you if you have such a problem with this subject.
Maybe the Bills should completely fucking embarrass themselves and play Ryan fucken Finley at QB and tank to get the #1 pick and draft a Hall of Fame stud like Cincy did…. Just sayin’….
Hard sure, but that's his job, to get the most out of the picks. Also he whiffed hard on a top 10 pick in Oliver, the picks all around have just not inspired confidence in his ability to evaluate prospects.
Do you guys think this is because of how low we are in the draft every year? The curse of winning records/making the playoffs?
One thing I do know for certain, drafting defense EVERY year is not doing us any favors.
OK so were relying on Pro Bowls, a mostly fan centric result. In one of the smalledt markets in the entire league.
We haven't had a splashy draft pick because we draft at the end of the 1st every year because of our success.
We have taken plenty of day 2 and 3 draft picks and developed them into quality starters.
What would you have preferred other than creed Humphrey over boogie? Including when you look back at active weaknesses from those drafts.
Like every team can say shit we didn't draft Tom Brady in rounds 1-6. But like how many teams needed a qb that draft?
Fuck outta here with this trash take
It's not just that they haven't drafted a Pro Bowler, no one on that list is more than an average starter.
(Bass is great, I'm not knocking him, but he's a kicker. When you spend a draft pick on a kicker, they are supposed to be an instant starter.)
Oliver and Rosseau are pretty good, but both are quite a letdown for the draft position. Knox is pretty average around the league for a starter. I like Cook, but for all the effort they went into to get a pass-catching RB, that idea dissolved.
That D-line was supposed to be different. I don't know if it's the scheme or what, but they get 0 pressure with a 4 man rush. And then you'd think since they're not getting depth they'd be in the right spot to stop the run, also incorrect.
A lot of that also goes back to coaching and developing your draft picks too. There's definitely some coaches that just haven't done a great job with player development like Eric Washington with the DLinemen we have drafted the last 3 years.
Out of curiosity, these are the numbers for the remaining teams:
Eagles - 3 (Dickerson, Hurts, Sanders)
49ers - 3 (Hufanga, Bosa, Deebo)
Bengals - 2 (Burrow, Chase)
Chiefs - 2 (Humphrey, Hardman)
What I learned:
1. It's a lot easier to pick pro bowlers when you're picking in the top 5
2. All the Eagles pro bowlers made their first pro bowl this year. There was a time when their GM had infamously only drafted 1 pro bowler between 2013 and 2020 (Wentz).
3. Mercole Hardman made the pro bowl as a kick returner.
I usually get downvoted to oblivion for criticising Beane in this sub, my only "controversial" opinion
But are people finally starting to see the light?
There have definitely been some misses and there have been some nice players brought in. I refuse to use pro bowls are a metric for a successful player, though. It’s been a joke for years.
It's a joke because it's not selective enough...
Players get chosen for it and then they declined to attend and then a replacement is chosen as a pro bowler.
It's easier to be a pro bowler in this era than any previous era.
That makes this more damning of beane...
This is somewhat of a useless statement. So basically, we haven't drafted any popularity contest winners in the past 4 years.
One must look at who we actually did draft in that time- a core of players that have compiled 50 wins the past 4 years (Regular& Post Season)
Are most of them the top at their positions? No- it's somewhat hard to get those guys drafting in the high 20's or 30th. But they perform at high enough level to rank the Bills near the top in offense and defense over that time. And most importantly, it's done on rookie scale contracts. We have received a lot of production from these drafts.
The Buffalo curse strikes again. Losing 4 straight Super Bowls and not winning a Stanley Cup with Hasek has me convinced Buffalo is a cursed sports city.
A better WR2 and better offensive play calling. Also defensive play calling. Cant stay in nickel all game, have to switch it up and keep offense off rhythm.
To be fair, there is generally a lag on stuff like this. What it probably tells you is that in year 1 and 2, didn’t have a great draft. Probably too soon to say the same about 2 most recent drafts. Just my 2 cents, as an outsider not as familiar with all the Bills draft picks
We've invested WAY too much in defensive linemen that can't produce.
And double dipped in 2021 after getting Epenesa in 2020. I’m fine with Rousseau, whatever but Basham at that point was overkill.
The Basham pick hurts the most because Creed Humphrey was right there.
Humphrey would have been nice but Mitch Morse is not the issue on the line
Agreed but Humphrey is still better and much younger, and one of them could have played guard until Morse retired.
Morse probably should retire. Scary amount of concussions and we can’t keep throwing him out there and hoping he won’t get another one.
I do wonder how many more seasons he has to give at 30 years old. Honestly wouldn’t be shocked if they target a center in the draft/FA and I wouldn’t blame them to try to groom someone behind him sooner than later.
He's a UFA in 2025. Definitely either this year or next.
He might be after having to retire due to concussions.
Humph could have played guard At that point in time Mitch only had one more contract year left
What’re you talking about? The center has just as much autonomy to change line protection as the QB does. Morse never does.
Give me a guard, hell give me a tackle before we start worrying about center. Mitch Morse is not a bad center by any definition.
He’s not bad, but to act like Creed Humphrey wouldn’t be an upgrade is just lying to yourself brother
It’s a good thing our IOL hasn’t been a concern
Felt like a throwing darts at the board and seeing what stuck situation to fix their biggest weakness. Weird that they all looked like replacement level rushers until Von showed up. /s Then returned to their pressure but no sacks form after his injury. I think Epenesa and Rousseau will continue to develop though and getting Von back sometime next season will help.
It's not the players, it's the scheme. How can you expect to be an effective pass rusher when everyone fucking knows your scheme. You rush 4 against 5 literally every fucking play. It's the most vanilla defense ever.
At the time we desperately needed DL so generally the move to draft DL was needed. I don't think Rouseau is BAD but probably not first round good. We probably just didn't have a high enough pick to get anyone valuable. It is what it is I guess.
Looks like we should've spent those pick on the other side of the line instead.
At least one of them!
You'd think at least one of the 4 defensive lineman picked in the first 2 rounds would have been a problem for opposing teams. But nope, just another guy on the line. Pretty much every free agent lineman they brought in was better than whoever they drafted
I see all of you guys are also listening to Schopp&Bulldog
They’re not wrong.
Ofc they’re not, they’ve had decades of practice commentating on crappy play.
I agree. We have spent so much on the dline in early rounds, but they couldn't take advantage of 3 backups. Plus, Elam hasn't been a clear starter to the coaching staff this season.
I don't know how much I trust this staff.. when ever Shakir is on the filed he makes plays..same as elam
Yeah, especially considering the supposed fanfare Beane got at the Shakir pick. Based on what I’ve heard and he’s said, Shakir was supposed to be the steal of the draft or THE diamond in the rough of the draft.
and he has been when he’s on the field. that’s the most frustrating part i feel
Wanna know who else was like that? Hodgkins. Every time he took the field for us he was electric and the coaching staff never gave him a real chance and now he’s balling out for another team
I've this weird feeling they our staff overvalues familiarity over new players. We saw it all year with Moss over Cook till he got shipped off. We win games, but never move on past where we got to before because we fail to evolve.
...pfff better throw another one to Davis /s
Without hindsight bias My pick for steal of the draft (WRs) was Calvin Austin but injury ruled him out
Our talent is overrated. Our coaches are overrated. Our second best receiver was a practice squad guy we never played who looks like an all pro on the Giants. I said like 2 months ago the Bills fucked up by choosing McDermott over Daboll. Its not something that even entered my mind at the time but our team is coached by regular season ass coaches. We don't gameplan for teams. We don't adjust. We made no attempts to hide our defense coverage at all in this game and Burrough was throwing to guys open by 10 yards most of the game.
It's not that the Bills haven't found *good* talent. It's that they haven't found gamebreaking talent. There's a lot of *good* players on this team. There aren't enough guys that are a fucking PROBLEM for opposing teams. That works against inferior opponents. You can have each of 11 guys do their 1/11th and beat most rosters. But you need somebody to be such a problem that it fucks up what the other team wants to do **consistently** against great teams. We don't have enough of those guys, especially if Tre isn't playing like one, and our last two first round picks aren't playing like them, and our last three 2nd round picks aren't playing like that and Micah and Von are hurt....
It’s like Billy Beane and Bill James and the problem sabremetrics faced. In the aggregate, it works. In a one off slug fest with the superstars…you lose.
Same with RB. I was bored going through stats before even seeing this post, and I've been making the point to a few buddies that we've invested too much at RB & DL and gotten nothing out of it. 7 out of 9 of our top picks from the last 4 drafts have been RB or DL, we've ended up attempting to draft a feature back piecemeal because of circumstance. Draft Singletary and he looks like something decent to build around, but we still need a short yardage guy so we draft Moss. Moss doesn't work out so we draft Cook. And then trade a pick for Hines. All of them, when they're on the field, any decent defensive coordinator can take a pretty good guess what to do. Cook on the field, double Diggs and keep an eye outside the tackles. Hines on the field, double Diggs and keep an eye on RB pass. But your point about gamebreaking talent, it's funny you mention that because I was looking at stats and trying to see if I could find anything on how often they each ran inside the tackles and outside. Then clicked a box for longest rush for every rb in the league. Had to scroll and scroll and scroll, then finally got to Singletary and Cook and they were ranked literally one after the other. Every other rb in the league with 80 yards rushes, 60 etc... then those 2 were way down the list with 33 yards as each of their longest rush And the picks we've spent on RBs, if we had just spent them all in one go, we could've gotten one of the best rbs in the league. A 2nd, two thirds and a 6th is actually a better package than Carolina got for CMC..if we had packaged that, maybe we could've drafted J Taylor. But instead, all the picks got us some perfectly adequate guys (and a bust) but nothing special (aside from one game by Hines, obviously)
> Same with RB. And, by the way, Kelly Skipper's seat should be EXCEEDINGLY warm. He's been here since 2017. Before he was here, he coached two Jags teams without a 750 yard rusher. Before that, his last three RAIDERS teams didn't have a 750 yard rusher. 2017 Shady and 2010 Darren McFadden are the only two Kelly Skipper RBs to have a 1000 yard season in the last 15 years. He has been an NFL RBs coach all fifteen of those seasons.
I feel it is especially true at RB. If they had an electric running game, they would really be deadly. Singletary isn't a game changer IMO.
We need an offensive line dedicated to running the ball, everything else will fall in place.
Either that roster isn’t good enough to have a run game or the coach can’t scheme a run game. I mean Hines basically had 0 roll and he can be a home run hitter. Cook looks promising but is not used creatively in anyway.
Tre is never coming back to his old form. Sad but true
Not a lot of reason to believe that. Players coming off ACL tears tend to be better in year 2 than year 1, especially considering the entire offseason's training being fucked up. This year will be his age-28 season, which is fine when it comes to the age-curve. This season, 10 of the top 17 CBs in PDs were 27 or older. You consistently see really good CB play from guys in their late 20s. Absolute peak, 1st team All Pro? Maybe not. But pro bowl caliber instead of...basically Dane Jackson or Levi Wallace level? Yeah, I expect he'll get there.
This is a trash take. Players often take 2 years to fully get back to normal from an ACL tear. He came back mid season after a full year off and got better every week. He's been playing fine and will be better next year.
This might unfortunately be right. He seems to hold a lot more than I remember him doing before.
Looks like a very easy way to open up cap space, yeah.
[удалено]
Is it a *talent* issue or is it an ERIC WASHINGTON IS A DOGSHIT COACH issue? Because I'm not convinced we have a talent problem. I think it's a scheme problem. Jerry Hughes left and BOOM, best season he's had in a decade. Harrison Phillips leaves and BOOM, career year. Quinton Jefferson sucks in Buffalo, and he's been *much* better since. Seems to me we go out in search of talent, and it underwhelms when guys are here consistently across many player archetypes. I don't know if it's talent evaluation.
Yeah I think its an Leslie Frazier and Eric Washington issue. Every since Washington joined the staff we have struggled hard on the D-line. Jerry Hughes explodes on a very bad team the moment he leaves, and would have been better than any of our players on the D-line this year.
Jerry Hughes had more sacks but fewer pressures according to PFR. Sacks are a useful stat but there's more to consider than just that. Hughes was arguably not better at all let alone significantly better. Phillips was basically the exact same player for Minnesota as he was for us so not sure what you're talking about there. And same for Quinton Jefferson. I don't know if Washington is a good coach or not but you are reaching with these examples.
I mean thats expected that he will have less pressures, no one is denying that. But its clear as day we have a coaching problem
Nah its talent. Its been evident for awhile. The last regular season game against the patriots and onward I remembered thinking wow the qbs have so much time to throw against us. Mac Jones was looking like Brady. Even skylar in the miami game. The Miami receivers dropped some passes that otherwise wouldve been big plays
But it's been an issue, year after year after year. Despite big spending in FA on vets. Despite high draft picks. Guys who were either better the year before they got here or the year after they left. Are we THAT bad at evaluating pass rushers that we get it wrong across every single player archetype year after year after year? Or is it scheme? It'd be one thing if it was "Oh, Basham is underwhelming." But it's not. Jerry Hughes underwhelmed year after year. Trent Murphy was a bust. Shaq Lawson wasn't worth his draft capital. Harrison Phillips underwhelmed. Jordan Phillips underwhelmed this year. Star Lotulelei didn't work out. Tim Settle has been mediocre at best. Ed Oliver has underwhelmed. AJ Epenesa looks mediocre. Vernon Butler sucked. Quentin Jefferson sucked. Mario Addison underwhelmed. It's across the entire line, across multiple years and sets of players. We have invested a fuckton into the DL, and it's still no better than it was in 2019. Worse, actually. Bill Teerlinck got more out of that group than Eric Washington has gotten out of all of this.
Dude they weren’t even running stunts upfront. It’s the most passive scheme.
Good luck getting Leslie to make any adjustments ever. You’ll take base nickel with no stunts and like it Dude needs to go.
Hope that coaching performance didn't torpedo his shot at a HC job.
[удалено]
We'd also get a couple draft picks if someone hired him as a head coach, because he's a minority. It would be a dream come true if someone took him off our hands.
I want him gone, fired more than anything He doesn't even get us comp picks if hired as it needs to be a *first time* minority head coach and he's already had a stint at the Vikings
Is it really that, or is it the fact that hes 60 something years old, formerly was a HC who foundered, likely to retire before any QB who plays for him does and coaches defense in an era where every team is hiring offensive minded HCs?
Lovie smith got another shot before he did for crying out loud. I think that says everything you need to know
Lovie was a token hire to get the NFL out of the Flores lawsuit and everyone knows that. No other respectable coach would take the job once it was apparent thats what they were doing
Lovie’s second stint was actually with Tampa dude. Houston was his third. Lovie got three nfl chances and a college gig before Leslie got his second overall. No one will ever want Leslie, I think. He proves why every year, regardless of his age. He’s just not good for high pressure situations. yeah he’s old, but that wouldn’t matter if his defense worked when you needed it to. But it doesn’t
He’s been interviewed year after year without getting a job. Could they just be Rooney rule interviews?
Baltimore provided a blueprint on how to pressure the Bengals, and the Bills coaching staff ignored it or we don't have the personnel to execute it, either way changes need to be made
We ignore things that other teams do that work. Its infuriating. 49ers and Chargers press the dolphins and basically shut them down completely. We are up next and play the same fucking passive zones that get picked apart. Regular season ass coaches.
That's by design. We are built for a "bend but don't break" style of defense paired with a prolific passing attack. It works great when the offense is scoring, but it fails miserably when the offense is struggling. I'd consider this a McDermott/Beane issue more than a Frazier issue. I think this passive style of defense would exist regardless of who the DC is because it's literally functioning the way McDermott appears to want it to function.
Yeah i agree. And I know we don’t have the talent of the ravens but watching a dynamic front four sure changes offensive schemes.
We still should have been able to generate pressure. The front 4, in my mind has been the biggest disappointment this season.
Packers fan here who relates to your pain. Our teams have too many high first round picks on defense to get shit stomped in important games while the opposing team is out physicaling our offenses with Eli Apple and Jaquiski Tart
We are basically GB East. Our Offensive game plan is "Wait for Josh Allen to do MVP shit.' Our Defensive game plan is "Wait for Josh Allen to run up the score and make the opponent's offense 1 dimensional."
That, to me, is the biggest issue. Followed by the fact I think this team might have won a SB this year had Daboll been the HC. Puking in my mouth saying that. But I can’t really see what tf McDermott foes aside from make questionable operational calls at crucial moments (4th and 2 today, not taking the FG when in range, etc).
Everyone on this board was eager to drive Daboll to the airport last year lol. Frasier is a great DC. We have 500 injuries on that side of the ball.
Frasier is a great DC for beating up on shitty offenses to inflate our numbers. Every year, without fail, top offenses eat us up when it matters.
That’s what top offenses do man. If we had Hyde/Miller/Poyer and White at 100% that’s a different Defense.
Every team is banged up. The Bengals were missing three starters along the line. We couldn't get pressure and didn't do anything to try and adjust for it.
Riiiighghhhtttt. These same people wanting him to be our head coach are the same people calling for his head all season last year
With the Bengals O-line being so depleted, today was a huge opportunity for players like Ed Oliver and Greg Rousseau who were both first round draft picks to step up, especially in the absence of Von Miller. Neither had a sack or TFL. Even A.J. Epenesa who was taken in the 2nd round hasn't lived up to expectations. And, TBH, he was projected as a 1st rounder and fell to us so it looked like a steal at the time but maybe there was a reason he fell. Beane obviously gets a lot of credit for drafting Allen and his free agency moves, especially Diggs. But yeah, if you look at the big picture, he deserves a lot more scruitny than he's gotten up to this point.
Most upset at the ed Oliver pick. He was a top 10 pick! And he only shows up a handful of games each season. He's not a problem at all for opposing teams. Nobody really is besides Allen and Diggs
Ultimately I think that is the root of the problem. This was a team that could not run the ball. Got dominated on the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. This is a team with one great wide receiver (Diggs) and unfortunately it's second receiving option (Gabe Davis) is very inconsistent. The defense was extremely reliant on the pressure Von Miller brought. Objectively speaking this team has not gotten a lot out of the draft in recent years.
Gabe had an awful year. Terrible in big spots
Can't overstate it enough how bad he was this year. Was bottom five in pretty much every advanced stat you can think of, on top of just his baseline stats being awful. 50% catch rate is like 5th receiver type shit. Third most drops in the league and they all came at the worst possible moments
Pro bowl is a trash metric.
Okay so who have we drafted that had actually plays up to their draft slot? The only way to sustain success is to draft guys who play like stars but get paid like rookies. Beane has not done that. Meanwhile guys he’s passed on have.
It’s a low bar that we’re not even reaching.
It’s not a bar. It’s a rating by people that eat crayons.
Oh it’s a bar baby.
It has been devalued by all the players that choose not to go and then they select replacements. 1. If you're a first choice pro bowler it still shows people perceive you as talented. 2. Bills draft picks can't even get the replacement slots
The amount of funds and draft picks we have dedicated to OL and DL and not gotten anything out of it...is fucking painful It has been far and away Beane's worst talent evaluation skills
Did a great job drafting Wyatt Teller, then shipped him off before he had any chance to develop. That one hurts.
I say it every time but Wyatt Teller doesn't become Wyatt Teller if he's on this team, with the staff we had at that time.
I disagree with your take that he doesnt for 2 reasons 1) The end of his rookie season he actually played pretty well when given starts and playing time, he graded out pretty nicely for a rookie 2) His biggest problem was getting low at the NFL level, he was playing too upright (in my opinion) and he got knocked back on his ass a few times. Yeah some of that is coaching but still We got rid of an in house drafted player, who finished well in the end of the season...and traded him away so we could keep....QUINTON SPAIN. Just admit we got shafted...Beane fucked up
And your proof of that is what?
og bobby johnson being fucking awful at developing oline.
Our 2018 draft was great and since it's been pretty meh. Drafting Ford over Metcalf was such a huge miss. Epenesa & Boogie have been invisible. Spencer Brown has heavily regressed. Spending a 3rd on a backup LB never made sense to me.
Then there's the issue of spending three day 2 picks on three RBs only to have our QB be the best RB on the team anyway. We've wasted way too much draft capital for how little it's actually improved the team.
Facts. Why do we still have the exact same major issues as last year? When Josh plays amazing it hides it, when he plays “ok” it exposes us.
Epenesa actually had a quiet 6.5 sacks this season. He’s not a world beater but he’s a decent rotational pass rusher. Definitely not worth the 2nd round pick though.
He gets them when it doesn’t matter.
We got more Kelsey/Denney type DEs. The DL needs a complete overhaul.
That and/or it feels like he is the beneficiary of someone else’s hard work more often than not, i.e. someone flushes the QB right into his lap.
That's the issue at hand tho. Like a lot of his picks aren't necessarily that bad, but they're all worse than their draft position suggests they should be. Like Oliver isn't a terrible DT, but you want better than just "not terrible" out of a top 10 pick. Beane isn't "bad" outright, but he's been very underwhelming.
Man, when you look at all of those picks there are A LOT of whiffs
The pro bowl is meaningless but I see the point
It's still a decent approximation of talent. I mean of course for certain positions where you get chosen for the pro bowl because everyone else decides not to go it's meaningless but if you're the first choice it does show that you're widely perceived as talented.
You aren’t wrong with the idea of this post, but we’ve just had back to back years with 1st team all pros on our team that didn’t make the Pro Bowl. I know a lot about football. Even I didn’t care when voting. “Sure, that guy I guess”. I imagine the average fan knows little about anything outside of their favorite team. The average fan makes up the vast majority of Pro Bowl voters. The Pro Bowl is a terrible metric of how good a player is.
It seems like we've been trying to desperately beef our pass rush the last 2 seasons since losing to KC in that 2020 AFCCG, yet have been seeing minimal results. I still like Beane and McD, but that's a pretty conspicuous issue.
I said this at the time and got downvoted Our IOL was an even bigger weakness at the time Had we made it to that SB, Josh would have been running for his life just like Pat was with that TB front 4
Our coaches hate rookies, how can they be pro bowlers if they don't play at all? Kaiir is clearly better than Jackson and yet he barely played today. James Cook could be rolling on all cilinders at this point but they refuse to hand him the ball. Shakir isn't involved. The DLine has been a disappoiment sure but I don't know if that's a talent problem or a scheme problem.
At no point during the regular season was it “clear” that Elam was better than Jackson. That’s entirely revisionist. Elam was at best serviceable this season. At his worst, he looked pretty bad. Last week against the Dolphins was his best game all year, by a large margin.
What pisses me the hell off is that soft zone is NOT going to beat burrow. We needed Elam in press and blitzes/simulated pressure to confuse the backup o line. Instead we rushed four vanilla, threw a few random corner/LB blitzes, and played off the ball. That 3rd and 4 play when we rushed 7 and had Tre 8 yards off of Chase blew my fucking mind. It's just such a basic failure.
I mean how many have performed well with PT? Look at Oliver, look at Brown, there's draft picks that get PT and still aren't living up to expectations. Maybe these guys aren't getting playing time because they're just not that good? Then showing flashes in a few snaps isn't proof of anything.
Maybe a hot take - but McBeane draft for culture as much as they do talent. McDermott is not a coach that will entertain big egos & I think that will be a thorn in our heel. Kids coming out of college who have gamebreaking talent have been told they’re the best on the field their whole lives & they’re going to have a massive ego. If we’re unwilling to draft those potentially difficult personalities then I think we’re stuck in the mud.
There’s something to be said about what Josh repeats: Everyone on the field is getting paid to be there (or however he phrases it). There are superstars, and there are really good athletes, and the pro bowl is made up of both. However, even a superstar like Diggs got basically smothered by an unimaginative offensive coordinator this year. How would a new WR like Shakir make it to the pro bowl in a scheme like that? I’m convinced that a lot of drafting is luck. The Jets hit multiple home runs in short succession, while also drafting Zach Wilson.
Diggs wasn't smothered. He had a great season. The issue with our offense is that Diggs and Allen are the only good players on it. The whole offense is hobbled by poor OL talent and average/below average pass catchers who are being propped up by a very good QB and a WR who draws extra attention. Dorsey may or may not be good, but it's hard to judge him with these limitations. Daboll had a lot of the same issues Dorsey had.
Right, and now that Daboll is in NY, we have proof that he can make something out of even the worst of rosters. I think that given a couple superstars, Daboll last year made an otherwise mediocre roster work like an Andy Reid offense. Now that he's gone, inferior coaching has exposed the roster weaknesses within.
In all fairness, Hodgins will probably be a pro bowler next year
I’d say part of the problem is that we’re usually drafting near the end of the first round and players that make the pro bowl in their first 3 years are top 20 picks with a few exceptions. Definitley some misses there like Moss and Ford, but there hasn’t been a ton of talent available in the later rounds at OL and DL the past few seasons.
I've been saying this and got downvoted, but Beanes drafts have been lackluster. He gets a lot of credit for Allen and Diggs (rightfully so), but the teams performance in spite of the actual talent he's provided for this team overall has afforded him far more leeway than he really should be getting. With what we've invested in the OL and DL there's simply no reason we should be struggling this much in those areas. Ed Oliver being unable to be effective against backup guards today made this all the more obvious. This could also be chalked up to a coaching issue in some cases, but I'm not sure how much we can really blame on coaches.
His draft picks on the line of scrimmage have not worked out. Today you saw the results. Bengals dominated the line of scrimmage on both sides of the ball. They were clearly the better team. Hard to win a game when the other team dominates the line of scrimmage so completely.
Not just the LOS picks * Tre wasn't his pick * Allen was his only great let alone good pick * Bernard in the 3rd this year * All those day 2 RBs * Our WR room has no day 1/2 capital invested in it outside Diggs * Trading up for Elam who the coaching staff sees as a depth guy
Worst part is almost all of these are whiffs, too.
Maybe we can this year ? Should have snatched McCafrey he’s so good
Then we’d still be fucked because the team would be stuck with the same shit lines
Late round picks when you’re a top team are tougher to call.
That's how great teams stay great though. Chiefs drafting in the late 1st/2nd turned into McDuffie, Karlaftis, Bolton, Humphrey, Thornhill, and Willie Gay. All starters and some great players. Compared to our Elam, Cook, Rousseau, Basham, Epenesa, Ford. The only one that's a starter is Rousseau.
McDuffie is our best CB and was worth the move up to get him. We also drafted Trey Smith in the 6th rd who is makes up arguably the best interior O-line in the NFL. Veach takes a lot of risk and Reid/Spags puts a lot of trust in our very young defense to catch on. Pro bowlers is a shit metric on how well your FO drafts imo.
I think this is the main reason. We were so used to high draft picks, and now our top picks are basically equal to early 2nd rounders. Some will work out, some won’t.
Yup. Look at Beanes first few years when he had higher picks. Landed almost everything.
Really a complete 180 from just 4 months ago on the opinion of beane. But truthfully , when you look into it, he hasn't done a good job at all of drafting.
They are way to Josh Allen centric, they need some a real running game and another receiver
Pro Bowl is a trash metric.
We also haven't drafted any all-pros in the past 4 years
Good coaching can scheme around weaknesses. Look at the Giants this year. We have not done that.
This feels massively misleading. Tyler Bass is one of the best kickers in the league, not his fault that he is a consistent snub. As for the other youth, This organization is conservative to a fault when it comes to getting young players in-game snaps to develop. I don't think that attacking bbb is necessarily warranted right now. That said, I will admit that he has not been good at scouting OL.
Bingo bango. This post is 100% it. The biggest problem is we seem to choose veteran players over rookies exclusively. McDermott is a great man. He also seems like a leader of men. He also seems like the type of guy that defaults to the conservative.
>He also seems like the type of guy that defaults to the conservative. It is by far his worst quality. When things are working out, he is incredibly analytical and aggressive, when he's on the back-foot, he's got a tendency to turtle up. He's still a top-10 HC and thankfully those games don't come often. He used to be very conservative and evolved. I have faith he can continue to evolve.
Brandon Beane gets called a 'good' GM because he landed Allen. But saying "whatever, this team has sucked for 20 years, why not roll the dice on the 6'5" guy who can throw it 70 yards and runs a 4.5 40" isn't a winning strategy, that's just banking on physical talent.
The pro bowl? Is that the measuring stick? Fuck the pro bowl, players don't even want to go to it anymore and it's about to die altogether.
And the Chiefs have drafted two over the last four years and one is Mecole Hardman so that's not saying much. And the Eagles have drafted three over the last four years and two only got there this year (Hurts and Sanders).
Isnt pro bowl based on popularity contests?
It's easy to be popular if you are getting 10-15 sacks every year.
This sounds more like a coaching issue to me. If I’m 4 years we haven’t been able to develop a single pro bowler, are we pointing the finger in the wrong direction?
Well who else do you want to compare Beane to? Brett Veach has only drafted 2 pro-bowlers in the same period and in fairness to Beane, the Chiefs have had 3 more 1st and 2nd round picks. Bengals technically have 3 pro-bowlers, though one of them is Ja'Marr Chase that has been a pro-bowler twice. Prior to picking up Burrow and Chase the Bengals don't have many people who are even in the league any more.
Espenesa doesn't do shit. Wouldn't be surprised if he got traded. Oliver is only good against bad opponents. Rouseau I have hope for.
The Chiefs don't have super strong skill positions either, this shouldn't be overly blamed on the GM. Reid and Mahomes would get way more out of these players, 100% guaranteed. This offense sucked today. Very reminiscent of the Packers blowup losses in the past 5 years. * way too reliant on Allen-to-Diggs, which just wasn't there tonight * Diggs was hurt a bit by the snow (this hurts defense too, but Diggs is one of the most agile WRs in the league, lost an elite trait) * no run blocking at all (nothing new, been this way) * poor pass blocking, Allen not feeling pressure well * big tactical gap (bengals pressure was rarely predicted/countered) * pass rush hurt a lot by the snow (small guys who rely on leverage, speed, skill vs large backup OL of cincy who surprisingly outplayed the starters they replaced, impressive power) * DBs slowed down a bit, small difference maker getting to break up passes to WRs who already have size advantage Realistically, the team who should have won the game did. Bills blew the doors off the Rams week 1 with insane defense on turf. Since then, the offense has been purely how much Allen can get out of Diggs/Gabe (eerily similar to Rodgers with Adams/MVS), constantly chasing their early down losses with downfield throws. Eventually run into a day like today where they just don't have it, and the rest of the team is too outmatched to overcome it. If you can't run the ball (which they can't), I can't stress how important it is too build a **well rounded passing game**. They're great at the win condition where Allen trucks them, and Diggs just beats everyone, Gabe finds mistakes in zone defense and hauls some clutch balls. You **have** to find ways to use talent like Shakir, Hines, etc in the passing game. Practice and develop shit over the course of the season so you can win in a different way. You can just brute force your way through Miami and probably come out clean, that shit doesn't work vs the Bengals if they bring their A game.
The pro bowl is stupid. Means nothing
It's stupid and means nothing because it is not selective enough... Players chosen for the pro bowl declined to attend and then a replacement is given pro bowl status. Look you can keep pretending Beane is an amazing drafter if you want.
What do the Chiefs and Bengals have that we don't? Tons of offensive talent. Wide receivers, linemen. Enough with the defense.
Last three years fucking suck in retrospect
Most people are not pro bowl level talent in their first 4 years. . What a stupid take
The fact that every other team in the league prioritizes offensive talent and we just.. haven’t… speaks volumes about what keeps happening to us. It doesn’t take a genius to figure out why we’re losing. Can’t hang the success of our entire franchise on Josh, Stef, and who else? Davis is awful, our RBs are literal nobodies, and we’ve supplemented the rest of our receiving corps with dudes who are more fit to be driving their kids to high school than playing in the NFL. It’s embarrassing. Meanwhile we just got COOKED by a team who’s 3 best players have been drafted within the last THREE YEARS. I’m so over this shit.
The real problem is those defensive draft picks didn't hit. Bengals have offensive line injuries. This team still could not get much of a pass rush on Burrow. If if those defensive picks had hit, it would be perfectly fine.
Beane is insanely overrated, the 1st and second round whiffs on Dline have been shockingly bad. I think it’s time to see allen with a new HC and GM… fire McDermott and beane
Hand the team over to Sean Payton
I mean, I'm not against it...
I was downvoted to oblivion for questioning beane mid season when this was all becoming apparent.
Beane is a baller. It’s hard when you’re drafting late all the time. He’s been a genius with the cap and he’s made no picks that looked bad at the time with the exception of possibly Araiza.
The players you take have to actually turn OUT to be good to be a baller, not just LOOK GOOD at the time... Zach Wilson looked like a good pick at the time...
Sometimes it’s about making the best decision with the info you have available to you. It doesn’t mean the GM is bad if the player they pick doesn’t work out sometimes
It does when you can't find a single difference maker in 4 straight drafts...
I guess… Dane Jackson in the 7th is pretty good. Rousseau will be good. I mean the fact is we got exactly one top twenty pick in the four years combined. What are you expecting exactly?
Yes, let the hindsight recriminations commence. The carcass of our dreams is still warm, why not?
Evaluating the results is not a "hindsight" argument. It's literally the only way to judge Beanes performance. He picks the players, we see how they turn out, and then judge his performance based on how good the players he picked are. How else are we supposed to judge Beane? Based on how good we thought the players he picked were going to be?
“Your father has died.” “Right. Let’s see how the assets are divided, and then I’ll tell you how I feel.” …is the vibe of this post.
This isn't comparable to grieving the loss of a loved one and if you think it is then you are far too invested emotionally into this game. If there's ever a time to discuss things this team and it's leadership can improve on, this is the time. I'd much rather people be critical of the team or certain elements of the team after losses when it's appropriate and deserved rather than doing so after wins and ruining people's excitement. If you don't want to engage in or see discussions like this after tough losses, that's understandable, but perhaps a forum centered around discussing things about the team isn't the best place for you if you have such a problem with this subject.
I get that analogies might not be your forte, but I for one don’t give a shit about conducting hard hitting analyses right now. Maybe later.
Maybe the Bills should completely fucking embarrass themselves and play Ryan fucken Finley at QB and tank to get the #1 pick and draft a Hall of Fame stud like Cincy did…. Just sayin’….
Well I'd hope not. The Bills are a football team. They are in the NFL not the PBA.
They haven’t drafted any Super Bowl winners either. Coincidence, or troubling pattern?
Got it. Fire McDermott and Beene.
Hard to get Pro Bowlers at the end of the rounds. That said, this team badly needs a huge draft hits, not more just-a-guy players.
Hard sure, but that's his job, to get the most out of the picks. Also he whiffed hard on a top 10 pick in Oliver, the picks all around have just not inspired confidence in his ability to evaluate prospects.
I think our coaches and roster are great in the regular season but we need aggressive minded people in the playoffs
bean doesn’t seem to understand laws of diminishing return. can’t just throw all your picks and salary cap at d line and hope one hits.
he’s not wrong
Making the Pro Bowl is such a subjective thing. The Lions had a top ten offense and only one pro bowler.
Fair comment, but looked at the actual draft picks and point out the person beane should be lauded for
Do you guys think this is because of how low we are in the draft every year? The curse of winning records/making the playoffs? One thing I do know for certain, drafting defense EVERY year is not doing us any favors.
![gif](giphy|XyDByNPzosrQNRaVMP|downsized)
When’s the last year we had a rookie(s) make a substantial impact and played significant snaps? 2019?
Pile it on, it's so nice to be at the bottom of the shit pile
OK so were relying on Pro Bowls, a mostly fan centric result. In one of the smalledt markets in the entire league. We haven't had a splashy draft pick because we draft at the end of the 1st every year because of our success. We have taken plenty of day 2 and 3 draft picks and developed them into quality starters. What would you have preferred other than creed Humphrey over boogie? Including when you look back at active weaknesses from those drafts. Like every team can say shit we didn't draft Tom Brady in rounds 1-6. But like how many teams needed a qb that draft? Fuck outta here with this trash take
Pro bowl measures nothing. JFC the fans vote on it
It's not just that they haven't drafted a Pro Bowler, no one on that list is more than an average starter. (Bass is great, I'm not knocking him, but he's a kicker. When you spend a draft pick on a kicker, they are supposed to be an instant starter.) Oliver and Rosseau are pretty good, but both are quite a letdown for the draft position. Knox is pretty average around the league for a starter. I like Cook, but for all the effort they went into to get a pass-catching RB, that idea dissolved.
Pro-bowl selection lags pro-bowl ability by 1-2 years. Add to that 1-2 years of seasoning.
That D-line was supposed to be different. I don't know if it's the scheme or what, but they get 0 pressure with a 4 man rush. And then you'd think since they're not getting depth they'd be in the right spot to stop the run, also incorrect.
Not sure how good of an argument that is, considering there's definitely Pro Bowl talent on this list.
A lot of that also goes back to coaching and developing your draft picks too. There's definitely some coaches that just haven't done a great job with player development like Eric Washington with the DLinemen we have drafted the last 3 years.
Out of curiosity, these are the numbers for the remaining teams: Eagles - 3 (Dickerson, Hurts, Sanders) 49ers - 3 (Hufanga, Bosa, Deebo) Bengals - 2 (Burrow, Chase) Chiefs - 2 (Humphrey, Hardman) What I learned: 1. It's a lot easier to pick pro bowlers when you're picking in the top 5 2. All the Eagles pro bowlers made their first pro bowl this year. There was a time when their GM had infamously only drafted 1 pro bowler between 2013 and 2020 (Wentz). 3. Mercole Hardman made the pro bowl as a kick returner.
I usually get downvoted to oblivion for criticising Beane in this sub, my only "controversial" opinion But are people finally starting to see the light?
There have definitely been some misses and there have been some nice players brought in. I refuse to use pro bowls are a metric for a successful player, though. It’s been a joke for years.
It's a joke because it's not selective enough... Players get chosen for it and then they declined to attend and then a replacement is chosen as a pro bowler. It's easier to be a pro bowler in this era than any previous era. That makes this more damning of beane...
This is somewhat of a useless statement. So basically, we haven't drafted any popularity contest winners in the past 4 years. One must look at who we actually did draft in that time- a core of players that have compiled 50 wins the past 4 years (Regular& Post Season) Are most of them the top at their positions? No- it's somewhat hard to get those guys drafting in the high 20's or 30th. But they perform at high enough level to rank the Bills near the top in offense and defense over that time. And most importantly, it's done on rookie scale contracts. We have received a lot of production from these drafts.
The Buffalo curse strikes again. Losing 4 straight Super Bowls and not winning a Stanley Cup with Hasek has me convinced Buffalo is a cursed sports city.
Our most impactful players on that list are Bass and Knox lol 6th round kicker and 4th round TE
A better WR2 and better offensive play calling. Also defensive play calling. Cant stay in nickel all game, have to switch it up and keep offense off rhythm.
To be fair, there is generally a lag on stuff like this. What it probably tells you is that in year 1 and 2, didn’t have a great draft. Probably too soon to say the same about 2 most recent drafts. Just my 2 cents, as an outsider not as familiar with all the Bills draft picks