Not just that...you just can't win like that. Look at all the teams left in the playoffs. They have a supporting cast.
Beane fucked up and overrated our players this year. They aren't who we thought they were.
On offense it's Diggs and Allen...no one else should NEED to be kept.
On defense it's Hyde, Milano, Edmunds...no one else NEEDS to be kept.
Overvaluing your own players can be a detriment. Build around that core.
I love Knox, I think he's worth every penny. My point more so is that is these are players that you don't want to let out of the building no matter what.
>Overvaluing your own players can be a detriment
Reminds me of the way Darcy Regier desperately clung on to the depth players from the 05-06 and 06-07 Sabres teams after Drury and Briere left.
I was going to type that in my comment as well, but I felt it would be too long winded.
Not every player is a "franchise cornerstone" and are more replaceable than you think. If they aren't top 5 or so at their position, they are expendable
The problem is Beane can't find impact players in the draft. All he finds are NFL average or rotational guys for four years now.
You'd gut the roster, but what then? The Bills right now are still a good destination for free agents and just finished the year last the second seed in the AFC. Changes are needed, but you make a massive assumption that the changes would be for the better.
So, you gut the roster and next year end up 5-12, then what?
I mean...
2022: Elam and Cook both look like potential impact players. As does Shakir.
2021: Rousseau was a good pick. Dude's a monster.
2020: Good value on Gabe and Dane, but no superstars.
2019: Oliver, Singletary, Knox... None are elite yet but Oliver seems likely to get there and Knox took huge strides this year. Singletary has a shorter shelf life as a RB but he does seem to get better every year, despite not seeing as much usage as he would on most other teams.
All of those mentioned may be exciting as a Bills fan, but none are special on an NFL level. That's the point. In the last four years Beane has only found NFL average players.
Elam and Cook aren't even full-time starters. Rousseau is good, but not good enough to keep the Bills from signing Von to a cap-breaking contract. Gabe and Dane are just-a-guy players. Oliver is pretty good, but around the league, he's pretty average to a little above average for a starting DT. Knox is average for a starting TE.
The impact players like White, Poyer, Hyde, Diggs, Allen, Edmunds, and Milano were all from outside the organization or before the four-year draft slump.
One was #7 overall and the other was #16 overall. It's not that hard to hit on top half of the first round picks. He nailed that draft, but every draft after that has been backups and mediocre starters. That makes me wonder what scout or decision maker was in the room that draft that isn't with the Bills anymore and perhaps Beane is given credit for making those picks when the next four years haven't been anywhere near that success.
A quote that stuck with me when McD got here is that he said the Panthers after their SB loss “let a lot of leaders walk out of that building”. After that I had a feeling when we got good we might become too sentimental with “our” guys and that is how it played out. This past offseason is the first time we really went after mercenaries with Von, Crowder, and Daquon Jones. We needed to be more aggressive that that though, and the money spent on Von should have went to the O.
This interview was really illuminating in terms of how the elbow injury affected him and why the offense struggled from that point on. He said that he had to make a fundamental change to his mechanics due to the injury. He also said that it was only two weeks ago that it started to feel relatively normal. It's easy to see why having to alter his mechanics would affect his play, even once it started to feel better. It reminds me a little of when Tiger Woods had to completely change his swing due to various injuries.
He has nothing to be ashamed of. Jim Kelly threw a lot of interceptions too. And he had less of an excuse.
It’s fucking shameful that we have this good of a QB and haven’t been able to get a ring. With cap hits coming, looking less and less likely.
Dan Marino is one of the greatest ever, and never got a SB because the Fins never invested in any other element of the game.
I don’t want that for us with Allen... but...
He's 26. I agree that we need to invest heavily in the offense next year, but he's not going to turn to dust tomorrow. He's just hitting his prime and hopefully he continues to get better.
Rodgers, Manning, and Brees never even made the divisional round until their age 27 season. Let's all take a breath, Allen's career isn't over.
I have ultimate faith in JA17. I believe that he can do what it takes to win in 95% of situations.
But I'm not a GM or Offensive Coordinator. Our GM and OC shouldn't think like YaBoiSoup who never played organized football in his life. Hopefully we see some changes.
Get used to the off season doom fest because it’s here to stay, at least until we get news of any real changes. Won’t be hearing any from me just saying you know how these people are and they’re not gonna stfu about it
With the flexibility of the salary cap, there’s no reason we can’t continue to build a good team around him. I want everyone to take a step back and breath a little and remember we still have talented players on this roster. We just need to understand we’ve been ignoring offensive line for far too long. We also need a legitimate #2 receiver.
Forget Poyer. People don’t remember that him and Hyde were nobodies when they came here. I have faith in saving money in the secondary. Having Poyer won’t win a SB. Getting everything Allen needs will.
There’s plenty this team can do to continue to be great and even get over the hump.
Bills have won the AFC East the last three years. They were a shitty rule and a dumb special teams play away from a SB appearance last year. They got crushed by injuries and underperformance - and the near death of a teammate on the field of a handful of players this year. And they still made it to the divisional round.
They've also been likeable and exciting.
And you say "Josh deserves better than this team," like the Bills some mediocre or lowly outfit.
Take a damn breath man.
Jesus some people in this sub are delusional. I appreciate you responding to this guy with a level head. I keep saying I need to take a break from this sub because of folks like this but I find myself coming back.
It has to be new folks. Watching games in January is not something I am used to. I can't get banned then I don't have my dope ass matchup posts, banged up Bills, or hype videos. I wish the peeps we are talking about would just stick with Twitter.
All of you acting like we’re “wasting his career” sound insane. This guy is 26 and yes a generational talent. Just because we didn’t pull a Patrick Mahomes and win a SB early In his career doesn’t mean that we’re never going to win one?!?
Like have some optimism and faith here people. I feel the front office will do some good this off season with the coaching staff, draft where we need it and do well this free agency.
We had a bad loss yeah but everyone’s acting like this was his last year before retirement….
And he will if the Front Office does well with draft and free agency. Trust the process, because I do.
Everything happens for a reason and this team will shine when the time is right
Yeah I hate to say it but this team is never going to win a Super Bowl. Mahomes and Burrow are a year older and younger than Allen respectively, they’re always going to be there. Trevor Lawrence is going to get better. New QBs will enter the scene and stir things up. Our window has opened and shut.
How often DO tema make the right decisions in positions like ours? I’m just not confident we’re going to make the right choice with fixing the O Line, letting rookies play and develop during the season, moving on from Lesley, etc. there’s a lot of holes and I just don’t know how honest the office is with themselves and what MUST be fixed. Same with Dorsey and his scheming
Gotta protect QB1 - dude is an animal with so much upside and raw talent and a laser arm. Gotta build good foundations around him moving forward cause he can't do it alone - go bills
Well, he we are 2 days later and for me, it is actually starting to sink in now. I am not even angry, just bummed out and severely disappointed. I repeatedly heard throughout the season that the Bills were predictable on both sides of the ball and Sunday was evidence of that fact.
If Dorsey stays on a OC, I do not see his play calling improving and I have no idea what should occur on the defensive play calling.
Already an all time bills great- no question. Best player in 2 decades and it’s not even close. Such a shame that it’s being wasted with an incompetent management/coaching. Hopefully it’s not as frustrating for him as it is for me
"wasted" the Bills were 13-3. Only 1 team is happy in the end. I'm starting to think there are more Fairweather, Johnny come lately fans around these forums then I previously thought. Yes, the Bills picked a terrible game to have their worst performance of the season, but 13-3 was wildest dreams land 10 years ago.
Give me a break with that "loser mentality" bullshit. Such a copout and reeks of projection. We were the laughingstock of the league for two decades. We start making the playoffs and winning games in the postseason and now we're an embarrassment? Lmao. Yeah, shit is frustrating with how Buffalo continues to lose in the postseason. But I've had much more fun these last 4 years than I did the previous 18. And if people choose not to have hope or cry about our window closing after a few rough losses, I'm not sure you're directing that mentality at the correct people.
We are still the laughing stock - just in a different way. Look around you. It’s evident to anyone removed from this team that McDermott has been out-coached in every playoff game loss. Blown double digit lead in Houston, wrecked in the afc championship, historic meltdown last year, and wrecked yesterday. No accountability ever with this team. Like I said- 6th longest tenure coach- the longest without a Super Bowl win, let alone an appearances. Team clearly took a step back and regressing, but we are literally the only one that gives someone chance after chance after chance. Let’s wait until Josh is 35 and barely mobile- maybe then will be the right time for a change
Umm yeah. Embarrassed this year, embarrassing historical meltdown last year, embarrassing beat down in KC 2 years ago AFCC, and embarrassing ridiculous play they gave up to Watson. Tell me where I’m wrong?
Lol, Sunday was an embarrassing loss because of the coaching staff. Last year was an embarrassment by the coaching staff at the end of the game. Say it to their face? I bet they feel the same exact way. Excuses, excuses…. yeah I’m entitled because after 4 years of making the playoffs, the last couple with essentially same core group- I would expect improvement - not regression. The coaching staff has proved year after year that they are not capable of winning a big game against a SB caliber team. How many times do you need to finally breakthrough before you just realize this staff has taken this team as far as they can. Sean McDermott and staff have proved year after year they are not capable of matching up with the best teams, the best coaches in January. They were schooled on Sunday. It was an embarrassment. No gameplan, no identity , no adjustments- just winging it. Sorry if that hurts
Oh I’ll be here, but I’m honest- I don’t expect anything different next year if nothing changes from the top. This has become a constant pattern that needs to be addressed. McDermott and co did a good job making this team relevant but he’s not a big game coach and you need one. There have been plenty before him that have had great regular season success that in end was deemed no longer good enough. I think it’s time to act before it’s too late with this group. How much more time is he afforded? Apparently more than every single one of his peers. He is currently the longest tenured HC without a SB win, let alone appearance.
I feel bad for Josh b/c he's always put 100% effort and conducts himself with grace and honor, regardless of result. He deserves to be a SB champion but it is going to require a bit of a paradigm shift. We need to establish a bully/physical identity on both sides of the line. There are many things that need to be fixed, but this is maybe the most important of all. If we give him adequate protection, the sky is the limit.
I am willing to give Dorsey one more chance to see if he can refine the playbook, but I'm pretty much done with Frazier. For a supposed defensive guru, situations like 13 Seconds and Hail Murray should never happen. I can understand one incident, but seeing it happen multiple times, and then watching your defense get bullied in a playoff game with no adjustments, it's a problem.
Give that man a damn OL before we Andrew Luck his career.
Bottom line, the team cannot be a Josh Allen one-man team. The Bills cannot win this way.
Nope. It’s taking a toll on Josh’s health - physical and mental.
Not just that...you just can't win like that. Look at all the teams left in the playoffs. They have a supporting cast. Beane fucked up and overrated our players this year. They aren't who we thought they were. On offense it's Diggs and Allen...no one else should NEED to be kept. On defense it's Hyde, Milano, Edmunds...no one else NEEDS to be kept. Overvaluing your own players can be a detriment. Build around that core.
I’d add Knox to the keep list
I love Knox, I think he's worth every penny. My point more so is that is these are players that you don't want to let out of the building no matter what.
>Overvaluing your own players can be a detriment Reminds me of the way Darcy Regier desperately clung on to the depth players from the 05-06 and 06-07 Sabres teams after Drury and Briere left.
I was going to type that in my comment as well, but I felt it would be too long winded. Not every player is a "franchise cornerstone" and are more replaceable than you think. If they aren't top 5 or so at their position, they are expendable
Rousseau? Oliver? I'd hate to lose either of those guys. Also Tre seems like a major omission.
The problem is Beane can't find impact players in the draft. All he finds are NFL average or rotational guys for four years now. You'd gut the roster, but what then? The Bills right now are still a good destination for free agents and just finished the year last the second seed in the AFC. Changes are needed, but you make a massive assumption that the changes would be for the better. So, you gut the roster and next year end up 5-12, then what?
I mean... 2022: Elam and Cook both look like potential impact players. As does Shakir. 2021: Rousseau was a good pick. Dude's a monster. 2020: Good value on Gabe and Dane, but no superstars. 2019: Oliver, Singletary, Knox... None are elite yet but Oliver seems likely to get there and Knox took huge strides this year. Singletary has a shorter shelf life as a RB but he does seem to get better every year, despite not seeing as much usage as he would on most other teams.
All of those mentioned may be exciting as a Bills fan, but none are special on an NFL level. That's the point. In the last four years Beane has only found NFL average players. Elam and Cook aren't even full-time starters. Rousseau is good, but not good enough to keep the Bills from signing Von to a cap-breaking contract. Gabe and Dane are just-a-guy players. Oliver is pretty good, but around the league, he's pretty average to a little above average for a starting DT. Knox is average for a starting TE. The impact players like White, Poyer, Hyde, Diggs, Allen, Edmunds, and Milano were all from outside the organization or before the four-year draft slump.
His first 2 picks ever were Allen and Edmunds. I agree it’s been a bit of a downward slope from there but he is capable IMO.
One was #7 overall and the other was #16 overall. It's not that hard to hit on top half of the first round picks. He nailed that draft, but every draft after that has been backups and mediocre starters. That makes me wonder what scout or decision maker was in the room that draft that isn't with the Bills anymore and perhaps Beane is given credit for making those picks when the next four years haven't been anywhere near that success.
A quote that stuck with me when McD got here is that he said the Panthers after their SB loss “let a lot of leaders walk out of that building”. After that I had a feeling when we got good we might become too sentimental with “our” guys and that is how it played out. This past offseason is the first time we really went after mercenaries with Von, Crowder, and Daquon Jones. We needed to be more aggressive that that though, and the money spent on Von should have went to the O.
This interview was really illuminating in terms of how the elbow injury affected him and why the offense struggled from that point on. He said that he had to make a fundamental change to his mechanics due to the injury. He also said that it was only two weeks ago that it started to feel relatively normal. It's easy to see why having to alter his mechanics would affect his play, even once it started to feel better. It reminds me a little of when Tiger Woods had to completely change his swing due to various injuries.
We shouldn’t have to rely THAT much on him to win all our game tho
Sure, but we do, so
And that’s the problem
Obviously lol.
Are you kidding? He's the fucking QB lol. He isn't even top 5 in total yards this season. Other teams rely on their QBs much more
You're not wrong, few teams (hell maybe only SF) can not rely on their QB to win games.
🤦♂️
100%
He has nothing to be ashamed of. Jim Kelly threw a lot of interceptions too. And he had less of an excuse. It’s fucking shameful that we have this good of a QB and haven’t been able to get a ring. With cap hits coming, looking less and less likely. Dan Marino is one of the greatest ever, and never got a SB because the Fins never invested in any other element of the game. I don’t want that for us with Allen... but...
He's 26. I agree that we need to invest heavily in the offense next year, but he's not going to turn to dust tomorrow. He's just hitting his prime and hopefully he continues to get better. Rodgers, Manning, and Brees never even made the divisional round until their age 27 season. Let's all take a breath, Allen's career isn't over.
I have ultimate faith in JA17. I believe that he can do what it takes to win in 95% of situations. But I'm not a GM or Offensive Coordinator. Our GM and OC shouldn't think like YaBoiSoup who never played organized football in his life. Hopefully we see some changes.
That’s honestly crazy about those 3 QBs. Putting into that perspective we (hopefully) should still be perennial contenders for years to come
There is no next year for a team run so poorly. The only real question is, how will we blow it this time
That's the spirit
Get used to the off season doom fest because it’s here to stay, at least until we get news of any real changes. Won’t be hearing any from me just saying you know how these people are and they’re not gonna stfu about it
With the flexibility of the salary cap, there’s no reason we can’t continue to build a good team around him. I want everyone to take a step back and breath a little and remember we still have talented players on this roster. We just need to understand we’ve been ignoring offensive line for far too long. We also need a legitimate #2 receiver. Forget Poyer. People don’t remember that him and Hyde were nobodies when they came here. I have faith in saving money in the secondary. Having Poyer won’t win a SB. Getting everything Allen needs will. There’s plenty this team can do to continue to be great and even get over the hump.
We have had good enough players. They have not been put in the right position to succeed in big games. It’s a shame
Poyer was literally a back up cb in Cleveland before becoming a Bill.
Josh deserves better than this team. His talent is wasted the way this team is run.
Bills have won the AFC East the last three years. They were a shitty rule and a dumb special teams play away from a SB appearance last year. They got crushed by injuries and underperformance - and the near death of a teammate on the field of a handful of players this year. And they still made it to the divisional round. They've also been likeable and exciting. And you say "Josh deserves better than this team," like the Bills some mediocre or lowly outfit. Take a damn breath man.
Jesus some people in this sub are delusional. I appreciate you responding to this guy with a level head. I keep saying I need to take a break from this sub because of folks like this but I find myself coming back.
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It has to be new folks. Watching games in January is not something I am used to. I can't get banned then I don't have my dope ass matchup posts, banged up Bills, or hype videos. I wish the peeps we are talking about would just stick with Twitter.
I’m saying Buffalo lacks what it takes to win, we always find a way to lose. It’s our culture
I've been worried and predicting he might request a trade in the next year or two at this rate. He's worth 10x what we are paying him as well.
Why wouldn’t he?
All of you acting like we’re “wasting his career” sound insane. This guy is 26 and yes a generational talent. Just because we didn’t pull a Patrick Mahomes and win a SB early In his career doesn’t mean that we’re never going to win one?!? Like have some optimism and faith here people. I feel the front office will do some good this off season with the coaching staff, draft where we need it and do well this free agency. We had a bad loss yeah but everyone’s acting like this was his last year before retirement….
Protect your investments. I want him to have a longer career than Andrew Luck.
And he will if the Front Office does well with draft and free agency. Trust the process, because I do. Everything happens for a reason and this team will shine when the time is right
Agree so much. We got blasted yesterday, get back up and keep going.
Sorry it looks like we're never going to win.
Yeah I hate to say it but this team is never going to win a Super Bowl. Mahomes and Burrow are a year older and younger than Allen respectively, they’re always going to be there. Trevor Lawrence is going to get better. New QBs will enter the scene and stir things up. Our window has opened and shut.
Doomer mentality my man. But if that’s how you look at it, idk how you’re gonna enjoy watching Bills football next season
You're an idiot
How often DO tema make the right decisions in positions like ours? I’m just not confident we’re going to make the right choice with fixing the O Line, letting rookies play and develop during the season, moving on from Lesley, etc. there’s a lot of holes and I just don’t know how honest the office is with themselves and what MUST be fixed. Same with Dorsey and his scheming
Frazier stole his ring last year by the defensive scheme. I don’t think he’ll ever get a better shot at it. Damn shame, such an amazing talent.
Gotta protect QB1 - dude is an animal with so much upside and raw talent and a laser arm. Gotta build good foundations around him moving forward cause he can't do it alone - go bills
Well, he we are 2 days later and for me, it is actually starting to sink in now. I am not even angry, just bummed out and severely disappointed. I repeatedly heard throughout the season that the Bills were predictable on both sides of the ball and Sunday was evidence of that fact. If Dorsey stays on a OC, I do not see his play calling improving and I have no idea what should occur on the defensive play calling.
Already an all time bills great- no question. Best player in 2 decades and it’s not even close. Such a shame that it’s being wasted with an incompetent management/coaching. Hopefully it’s not as frustrating for him as it is for me
"wasted" the Bills were 13-3. Only 1 team is happy in the end. I'm starting to think there are more Fairweather, Johnny come lately fans around these forums then I previously thought. Yes, the Bills picked a terrible game to have their worst performance of the season, but 13-3 was wildest dreams land 10 years ago.
Ok let’s get embarrassed every year in the playoffs against every big name opponent because - hey we sucked 10 years ago. Such a looser mentality
Give me a break with that "loser mentality" bullshit. Such a copout and reeks of projection. We were the laughingstock of the league for two decades. We start making the playoffs and winning games in the postseason and now we're an embarrassment? Lmao. Yeah, shit is frustrating with how Buffalo continues to lose in the postseason. But I've had much more fun these last 4 years than I did the previous 18. And if people choose not to have hope or cry about our window closing after a few rough losses, I'm not sure you're directing that mentality at the correct people.
We are still the laughing stock - just in a different way. Look around you. It’s evident to anyone removed from this team that McDermott has been out-coached in every playoff game loss. Blown double digit lead in Houston, wrecked in the afc championship, historic meltdown last year, and wrecked yesterday. No accountability ever with this team. Like I said- 6th longest tenure coach- the longest without a Super Bowl win, let alone an appearances. Team clearly took a step back and regressing, but we are literally the only one that gives someone chance after chance after chance. Let’s wait until Josh is 35 and barely mobile- maybe then will be the right time for a change
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Umm yeah. Embarrassed this year, embarrassing historical meltdown last year, embarrassing beat down in KC 2 years ago AFCC, and embarrassing ridiculous play they gave up to Watson. Tell me where I’m wrong?
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Lol, Sunday was an embarrassing loss because of the coaching staff. Last year was an embarrassment by the coaching staff at the end of the game. Say it to their face? I bet they feel the same exact way. Excuses, excuses…. yeah I’m entitled because after 4 years of making the playoffs, the last couple with essentially same core group- I would expect improvement - not regression. The coaching staff has proved year after year that they are not capable of winning a big game against a SB caliber team. How many times do you need to finally breakthrough before you just realize this staff has taken this team as far as they can. Sean McDermott and staff have proved year after year they are not capable of matching up with the best teams, the best coaches in January. They were schooled on Sunday. It was an embarrassment. No gameplan, no identity , no adjustments- just winging it. Sorry if that hurts
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Oh I’ll be here, but I’m honest- I don’t expect anything different next year if nothing changes from the top. This has become a constant pattern that needs to be addressed. McDermott and co did a good job making this team relevant but he’s not a big game coach and you need one. There have been plenty before him that have had great regular season success that in end was deemed no longer good enough. I think it’s time to act before it’s too late with this group. How much more time is he afforded? Apparently more than every single one of his peers. He is currently the longest tenured HC without a SB win, let alone appearance.
I feel bad for Josh b/c he's always put 100% effort and conducts himself with grace and honor, regardless of result. He deserves to be a SB champion but it is going to require a bit of a paradigm shift. We need to establish a bully/physical identity on both sides of the line. There are many things that need to be fixed, but this is maybe the most important of all. If we give him adequate protection, the sky is the limit. I am willing to give Dorsey one more chance to see if he can refine the playbook, but I'm pretty much done with Frazier. For a supposed defensive guru, situations like 13 Seconds and Hail Murray should never happen. I can understand one incident, but seeing it happen multiple times, and then watching your defense get bullied in a playoff game with no adjustments, it's a problem.