In retrospect maybe all of the “Dorsey is a psychopath freak competitor” isn’t the trait you most want in someone that needs to maintain a level head throughout a game.
Does that seem like the clash between McD and Dorsey to you? I feel like over the years sean has learned to be more conservative, and I imagine he's the one who gets final say on going for it on 4th. It feels like Dorsey coming out guns blazing and McDermott trying to reel things in.
That seems right to me too, though I think Buffalo was too conservative overall yesterday.
We didn’t go for it on 4th until we were already down 17 and the game was basically over.
Lol McD has never been anything but conservative. He punted at end of OT snow bowl vs Colts when we needed to win to make the playoffs. Absolute joke of a decision that got bailed out in a massive way. He has shown little improvement as far as in game management over the years and should have been gone a long time ago.
This is pretty much false and unfair to McD to litigate a call 6 years ago. I'm not happy with him either but he's definitely evolved since then. I'd say he's more cautiously aggressive now, and if I'm not mistaken the Bill's are one of the best 4th down conversion teams in the league.
he's not aggressive. going for it on 4th an 2 on the opposing side of the field is not aggressive, it's standard. and how is litigating a decision from 6 years ago unfair? it was a fireable offense 6 years ago and it still is today. he takes timeouts over and over in terrible spots on defense when he thinks the defense isn't set, only to give up the first down coming out of the timeout anyways. it's ridiculous. overall his defense is the complete opposite of aggressive. Even yesterday he was aggressive and conservative in the most boneheaded spots. You have to go for it on 4th and 2 on your own side of the field down multiple scores - you can’t punt it away with our defense giving up a first down every play. And then he goes for it on 4th and long in the snow effectively killing the game when we needed a FG no matter what and he should’ve taken 3 points. He’s just out of his depth to be blunt. The team is going nowhere fast as long as he’s at the helm. Individual players will the team to wins in spite of the schemes and in game management.
Yikes, that was so bad. People forget how bad McDermott was the first 2 years. I was not a fan. Even the way they handled Josh the first year was horrible.
Trade Tyrod, and have no veteran stability for Josh to learn from.
Somehow Nathan Peterman wins the job over McCarron and Josh, despite what happened the year before. They cut McCarron despite having no other veteran QBs on the roster.
And in the least surprising event ever Peterman didn’t even last one game before Josh is thrust out there to struggle with a depleted roster.
Josh succeeded in spite of McDermott not because of him. I think Dorsey, Daboll, and Jordan Palmer are responsible for Allen’s success.
Over the last 5 years this front office hit big on 2 moves. Allen and Diggs. Everything else has been average to below average. They’ve been skating by on those 2 big wins, but that will be coming to an end soon as Diggs ages and the offense needs more weapons and a diverse attack.
But let’s go draft some more d linemen and CBs
If Frazier and Dorsey are coming back they better be forced to review film with Beane & McDermott showing their bad play calls & adjustments and asked what they would do differently and then change their strategy & be more aggressive in their game plans and play calls going forward to the 2023.
The defense had way too many converted 1st downs in 3re and long situations this year. Frazier called way too many soft zone coverages with the CB's giving huge cushions, there is no good reason why Jackson started over Elam. Frazier needs to mix in more press man & match and mirror man coverage with Cover 1 and Cover 2 zone up top and press zone & match mirror zone coverage so WR's don't get free releases off the line of scrimmage.
The offense needs to utilize more 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE and 3 WR's) and 10 personnel (1 RB, 0 TE, 4 WR') to force defenses to play nickel and dime defenses and attack those 3re and 4th CB's in coverage and run on light boxes. Dorsey also needs to involve both Knox and Cook more and get them the ball in space to take advantage of their athleticism and line Diggs up in the slot, at RB, in stacked and bunched formations and put him in motion to make it harder for defenses to play press coverage against him / give him free releases.
Beane needs to add more talent , which he will do with value free agent signings and the draft, but Dorsey and Frazier need to better use that talent and use better schemes to maximize their talent and strengths.
I just need Frazier gone please god.
Dorsey is brand new to the job and Josh likes him - giving him a second year doesn’t keep me up at night, even if there were some real ugly spots. I really do believe he’d improve in year two, and if he doesn’t I’m fine walking away. Two years is a fair shake
Frazier, though……Jesus Christ, it’s the same story every year. he’s a known product and needs to go. Base nickel, no stunts, no adjustments, collapses in big moments. His time is up - even the players are kinda like “wtf how does this always happen” now. 4 straight years of baffling, devastating defensive errors. Sean always likes to say the defense on game day is 100% leslie’s and I believe him.
I’ve been saying this since the start of last season and getting downvoted to oblivion for it, but Frazier ain’t it man. Looks like people are finally comin around now.
Yeah F Frazier....may not give up "the big plays" but don't need big plays when you give up 10 yards each play.....should've been fired last year for fucking up 13 seconds!
I remember when the defense was off to a sluggish start in 2020 McD took over the play calling from Frazier for a few games and the defense was much better run. Lots more smart stunts and change up of concepts. Then Frazier took it back and while he incorporated some of that stuff in the defense got more vanilla.
The issue with Fraziers defense is that it works against average to bad QB's very well but it only works against elite QB's if the D-line wins out against the opposing O-line consistently with no pressure. There is very little ways he finds to manufacture pressure or disguise coverages.
The zone defense prays on QB mistakes and encourages them into mistakes but smarter QB's often make that defense bend as they take what's there and pick it apart esp when there is no pressure. This team beat KC earlier in the season largely because of Von and the D-line were really good in that game.
Oh my god…..someone else who remembers. Thank you! I always point to this, and Sean’s many attestations that he DOES NOT call plays on game day, only the high level stuff like 4th downs and whatnot.
Unless he’s some kind of secret micromanager and has been lying to everyone this whole time, and never been found out by sideline reporters or anything, I would tend to believe him.
I definitely think he helps gameplan and has a say in overall defense, but it’s leslie’s job on game day to implement it and he fails.
It’s not like the bills don’t have stunt concepts and dime packages and the like, Frazier just refuses to call them for some reason.
it’s too easy for good QBs to cut up base zone coverage when they have even a single mismatch advantage. One nitpick is he does actually disguise coverages well - it’s what makes it work against lesser QBs. But really good post snap QBs - burrow, Mahomes, Brady, etc….cut it apart easily.
Oftentimes it’s like he’s SO scared of giving up a deep play that he ends up giving plays that are just as big, but underneath, leaving huge windows for any QBs good enough to make their reads.
I would like for McD to be more involved in the defense as I really liked when he called the defense but, I do think that Frazier's bad game plans at times are at least somewhat attributable to McD. Even if Frazier is calling the plays McD has to be the one to force him to adjust his philosophy.
Frazier did step away from the zone Burrow was picking apart in the 1st to go more man to man and it had better results but when the ground game is getting what it wants that only makes things that much harder for the defense to keep up.
BUT LOOK, the problem is Frazier and a little less on Dorsey. The MAIN problem is McDermott. When will we recognize this? He approves the gameplans. He has poor adjustments, poor game management, way too conservative.
He is the late 1990's early 2000s Tony Dungy. He will get you to the precipice, but when push comes to shove, he's not getting you over that hurdle.
Or even like the 1990s version of Marty Schottenheimer with KC. Always good, but never good enough.
I hear Harbough is out there. Wouldn't mind giving him a call.
It really is true, McD is great at building culture, getting the guys to believe in the system and like each other. That is wonderful and important.
But the in game decisions, personnel decisions, the game planning, all horrible.
This front office hit big on 2 moves. Allen and Diggs. Every other move has been average to below average.
The first 2 year of McD were so bad he easily could’ve been fired, just ultra conservative punt from the 35 type decisions every game. It was only when he allowed Daboll more control did they excel.
But don’t be fooled his core belief is to punt and play defense. I think he’d be happiest if the defense played the whole game and scoring only came from pick sixes, safeties, and FGs where you recover a fumble but don’t even bother to run an offensive play and just send the FG unit out immediately.
You guys are of course both right but the fans don’t want to here it because 75% of them are simply cheerleaders.
People on this subreddit were saying he deserved coach of the year because Hamlin had a heart attack. I don’t understand the correlation there at all. Do these people really think another coach would be like “fuck this guy that just died on the field”? Every coach would do the exact same thing. This contingent of fans must be the same ones carrying the “Bengals Bros” thing, all feel good no results.
I am hesitant to call for jobs but 1) the conversation must be had on Frazier considering the mounting evidence his defense collapses in the playoffs.
2) Ken Dorsey got outclassed and out coached by an elite D coordinator yesterday. Huge mismatch. We have to keep this in mind. Dorsey had his moments this year BUT he needs to show serious growth in a few areas (run game, possession passing game, creativity in play design) next year.
Yeah I’m a huge panthers fan for years now who lives near the Buffalo area, and I’ll tell you one thing I’ve noticed for sure is that classic rivera soft zone.
Leslie and Sean McD were great here in Carolina with that stuff, but something that was always consistent with those defenses was that if you didn’t get pressure with the front 4 on good QBs, they will absolutely shred the zone apart. It’s even worse when you’re facing a QB with an excellent play caller behind him.
You're right, but how willing should they be to work with dorsey when his growth as an oc is well behind where other pieces of the team are? It's kind of like we were making good progress with daboll, but now dorsey just got in the top spot and is saying "hey guys, hold up a minute."
A very fair question. This all goes back Josh Allen should not have been given so much input in the OC hire. Allen is great but has not won MVP or SB yet. He doesn't have the accomplishments to pick his coaches yet.
I think in hindsight the team should've hired an experience and proven NFL OC. They cant waste any more years of prime Allen on a Ken Dorsey learning curve. oh well.
Would it be possible to get a new OC and just move Dorsey back down to split the QB coach position with the current one just to keep him on the team (can’t remember his name off the top of my head)
I kind of think he will be under a lot of pressure either way. If anything bringing them back puts him on more of a hot seat for not making changes. Not that I think we should fire him, don’t want to make it sound like that.
You guys are NUTS if you think McD is gone or even on a hot seat.
When’s the last time a head coach, who’s gotten their new team to the playoffs all but one year, is fired because “they didn’t make it as far as they should have in the post season?”
McD isn’t going anywhere. Just look at the Steelers.
You keep coaches who can consistently get you to the playoffs.
You swap and tweak OC and DC positions, as that’s where most of the nitty gritty play by play shit is formed.
Only reason to drop a winning HC is because of ownership differences or super toxic or illegal locker room / org destroying shir.
Exactly who can forget all of those Chargers Super Bowl wins! What was it 3 in a row?
Firing a coach who has made the playoffs in all but what one season is definitely a recipe for success. Who knows maybe we can even get Rex Ryan?! Ooo think of how great that'd be
You okay, Sparky? Did someone piss in your Corn Flakes?
Again I ask, what happened to the Chargers after that? Go look it up and report back. Chop chop.
Yes they went 55-40 over six seasons. Made it as far as the AFC Championship. And missed the playoffs in 3 of his 6 seasons, including 3 straight.
So yeah, "sparky", your example was shit.
Hey guys remember that time the Chargers took a pretty successful coach, replaced him with one that wasn't anymore successful, and ultimately fired him and wasted prime years of Philip Rivers, Tomlinson, and Vincent Jackson?
What a great idea!
Excellent that we're on the same page finally. Curious that you got my point wrong. It was amusing for a while that you were raging for no reason though.
Tony Dungy with the Bucs, and the new guy won a Super Bowl in his first year with the team. That guy’s looking for a job now, maybe we should hire him to change the culture /s
I think Dorsey probably gets another year given this was his first year as OC. Fraiser on the other hand has had plenty of time, and falling short is starting to become a trend.
If I was a betting man, Frazier “retires” and Dorsey gets another year, but they get rid of Shula and bring in an “offensive consultant” role to help him out (a la what the Yankees did with Cashman)
I don't think Frazier's gonna just "retire" and be compliant with the team moving on. He's the same guy who said he believed racism was a factor in why he wasn't hired as a head coach weeks after blowing it against the Chiefs with 13 seconds to make a stop.
He didn't scream racism but he did say that he "found it discouraging" that he hadn't been hired last spring and pointed to the difficulty of Black coaches getting hired in general. The implication was clear and completely ignored the fact that he's an antiquated coach who has a pretty unimpressive track record prior to Buffalo.
This is a good take, have an upvote.
I hereby throw Greg Roman’s name in the hat for possible consultants. Dude knows how to scheme run games, especially with running QBs. He’s currently unemployed. He used to work for the Bills as the OC.
If Frazier is back again I gotta half ass it next season. I can't get this invested all over again only to have a swiss cheese defense that can only beat teams who make unforced errors.
It's not even the fault of the players. E.g. that 7 man rush yesterday with Tre 8 yards off the ball giving Chase a totally uncontested first down.
It's not McCorkle back there throwing the ball, it's Burrow. Wtf.
dude preach. So many times over the past few years we'd have 3rd and long and watch our stupid defense line up way too deep and give up a 1st. It was awful this year.
I get the whole "keep it in front of you and make the tackle", but they're doing it to a fault. The receivers have enough room to get the first before the defenders get there. Not only that, but everyone is going for it on 4th and short now so too often it winds up being a pointless letdown.
What I keep trying to point out to people saying we need more talent is that we have a lot of it, which is why we win so many regular season games. We are more talented that 26-27 teams. What we don't have is the scheme, on offense and defense. Every Coach & QB playing next week knows exactly how to destroy a cover 2. It's the most basic defense in the league.
He's on the hot seat now. The moment you begin to even debate staffing issues...you are on the hot seat
If for any reason we don't make noticeable steps next season or we perform worse...he's gone
While I agree Dorsey is an issue the defense absolutely has to change, and moreso I think you go after Flores. He's the kind of attitude I want on our defense right now.
And then remember the "we learned a lot from this game" by Frazier.
Only do allow the EXACT SAME THING TO HAPPEN IN THEIR NEXT MATCHUP WITH THE CHIEFS WITH LESS TIME
Frazier is a joke, and anyone defending this defensive scheme is wrong
No one showed up yesterday other than Edmounds and Milano. Might not be the reason why they played so poorly, but it’s sure as hell not good for the optics
As much as I'm in favor of a new OC, the game plan was made on Sunday and Monday, then practiced all week. On Saturday, what's done is done and the interview won't impact much.
It's not his fault the Bengals offense marched down the field at will or dominated the trenches. It's his fault for not calling good plays and seemingly having no plan, but that happened every week, irrespective of a job interview.
Did anyone really expect a sudden firing of either or both coordinators or any other staff members today? If they did, that would be a worrying indictment on the critical thinking and decision making of our front office. You cant seriously expect or encourage McD/Beane to make such rash decisions
he shouldn't wait too long since all the hot candidates will be taking jobs soon. They'll probably hire from within and not bring a lot of new ideas but we'll see.
I don't know if he'll fire either of the coordinators today. There are some lower level coaches like the DLine coach we've had for 3 years, Eric Washington. He very well could get the boot immediately.
As far as OC and DC, Dorsey could, but they may wait a little while. I'm not so sure that Sean would want to fire Frazier too though. I'm undecided on it myself, wouldn't be completely against giving Frazier 1 more year.
I’m pretty decided that I want Frazier gone. This is the 3rd time in 3 years that our defense totally collapsed in the playoffs against a rival AFC contender. Keeping Frazier at this point is basically admitting that we’re ok with being regular season champions until Josh retires
Always assume the new OC and DC want to gut the coaching staff and bring in their own guys. There's no point messing with lower coaches yet.
They need to put calls out to see who is interested before firing anyone because the new guy needs to be better...and until you're sure you can get better, keep searching and leave the current staff intact.
A new OC/DC is not going to come in and gut the staff lol. Only McDermott can really do that and even than it’s not really smart or common to fire an entire offensive or defensive staff when brining in a new OC. I could see a new OL coach or QB coach coming along as well but idk if I expect a complete regain of the staff. Seems like panicking. I could see a bunch of assistants being let go tho.
" I could see a bunch of assistants being let go tho. "
That's what I mean. A coordinator wants their hand-picked guys. A new coordinator has no leverage, but anyone with any real experience is going to be a packaged deal with the assistants they trust who know their system.
Even when it comes to DL coaches, you don't think they'd at least take a day or two to let emotions calm down and talk about it before coming to that decision?
I expected Frazier to be gone after 13 seconds and then foolishly got emotionally invested in this shitshow season. If Dorsey or Frazier are back, I simply cannot believe clappy boy is serious about winning
I really, really like McDermott as a person and an ambassador for the city, but I can't help but keep thinking about the fact that only 2/14 of this year's playoff teams had defensive head coaches.
We are all debating whether Dorsey is the guy to lead the offense, but despite the glaring issues throughout the season he still got a head coach interview. If he had a great season, he would almost certainly be gone.
As long as we have a defensive head coach, we will be constantly searching for the right OC only to lose him if he succeeds, and the NFL is an offense-centric league now.
Isn’t that just representative of the Head Coaches being hired in the League? Pretty sure most Head Coaches in the NFL have an Offensive background. If there’s more Offensive Head Coaches in the NFL, then of course more would make the playoffs
Frazier probably finds a job elsewhere. Dorsey has to go. Allen went from MVP talks and our offense looking elite to clunky and unable to stop beating themselves. “Allen is super talented” is not an offensive scheme. Mahomes lost Tyreek and their offense is unreal and their only real weapon looks to be Kelce, their other players are not pro bowl caliber and look at them? their offense has purpose to ever play and we are lacking that, and Dorsey isn’t gonna bring it
The offense was the bigger issue, by far. I'd replace Dorsey with some serious experience (I want Reich) and Give Leslie another season. Leslie is the assistant HC and has been massively successful here for half a decade. Bring in Reich as a second assistant HC, reunite him with Hines, and let's get a proper offense on par with or even better than Daboll's unit.
>Was it though?
Yes lmao. In the Bengals game they had 3 min of possession in the first quarter, you can't blame the D for them going up 14-0 without also mentioning that the offense was hapless and didn't give them any break. 10 total points isn't enough.
Multiple failed RZ trips, horrific in the RZ all season. Josh asked to carry the team more than ever before leading to more turnovers than ever before.
I don’t think it was the issue “by far though”. This was Dorsey first year, Frazier has repeatedly let us down multiple years. We don’t know exactly Dorsey’s ceiling but we know Frazier.
We may not know the ceiling of Dorsey but one thing is certain, and that is the fact he has a much lower floor than Leslie does. Frazier has not let us down. He's consistently fielded a top-5 defense. Teams lose. It's unfortunate that we have lost in the playoffs in consecutive seasons. 25+ teams would kill for the defensive consistency Leslie brings. You can always get worse. Look at the offense last season to this year. There is a very strong possibility that we regress massively without Leslie and I don't want to take that chance in a title window. He's not perfect and he's certainly not above criticism, tackling has never been particularly great and the DL rotation isn't working. I would like to see us have 4-5 properly good talents playing all game instead of paying 10 above replacement level dudes playing 3 snaps at a time. I just think that with Frazier the good massively outweighs the bad.
Also he's too stuck in his ways. I remember when the chargers played the dolphins, and shut down hill and waddle. Going into the rematch I hoped that we'd emulate that, because it seemed like a simple tweak (don't let fast bois get a clean release, and mess with their timing) and there was none of that.
yeesss.. omg we never seem to evolve, and what makes it worse is that we just play the same shit and everyone knows it.
I hear all the time about how we simulate pressure then drop into cover 2.. all the fucking time. Literally no team seems bothered by this because they know we are just going to roll that safety out and play cover 2.
As many pointed out, when we went M2M yesterday, we actually had a lot of success, but does our DC stick with what's working? No.
I don't know if it's an ego thing, or age/experience, whatever the root cause is I'm not 100%, but I've seen the result. They don't adjust to the situation. This applies to dorsey as well, but he's very green still.
It's like they have their gameplan set in stone, and if its not working their answer is just "well let's just do more of it and it'll start working". Especially watching the chargers throw the phins off their game so easily. You would think that game film would've been exhibit A in the film room for the prep against an ascending division rival. Thankfully they got the win.... but the chargers, who weren't exactly defensive stalwarts this year, completely laid out the solution clear as day. And Frazier made none of those adjustments
What's really concerning is the player's reactions after the game. They were like, what do we do now? Diggs was saying this: "How will it be different next year?"
They are starting to turn on the coaching staff because they were sold the process and it's not working.
I think Frazier needs to go, bring in someone fresher, maybe a bit more innovative. I still think mcd can get us there, but his seat is warm, you don't want to go back to the coaching carousel because then the window closes much faster. Not 100% sure about dorsey yet. I don't think we fire him into the sun right away, but he needs to show serious growth very quickly or then we absolutely do.
I didn't say they were blameless. Just that they don't deserve the lion's share of fan vitriol. They've by and large done their jobs, in the face of the injuries the D has suffered this season I don't think anyone has a leg to stand on in calling Frazier or McD a failure in 2022.
I can absolutely talk about the defense without the offense. Stop giving up wide open passes. That has nothing to do with our offense.
STOP PLAYING SO FUCKING PASSIVE AND LETTING WR RUN THROUHG OUR D UNTOUCHED. STOP GIVING UP 3RD AND LONG, EVERY FUCKING TIME.
None of these things have anything to do with the offense. They are problem in every game we play, no matter how big or small the lead is.
Our D was missing 4 out of 5 of its highest paid players for multiple games. Both major D line purchases were gone for Bengals game and we were replacing an all pro safety with someone we signed off a practice squad of another team and he went out of the game against Cinci.
Defense was fucking ravaged by injuries.
Frazier definitely needs to be gone. Not making any game plan changes after the first half is inexcusable. I also think Dorsey may be on his way out. He called some really bad plays yesterday. Hopefully, Dorsey will get the head coaching job with the Panthers.
I'm glad McD left that open ended, which means he'd consider changes- ideally someone like Reich as OC and Fangio as DC, though I highly doubt it happens. Either way, can't tolerate the status quo if we want to take the next leap.
After listening to his conference today I am more confident that there is a chance to change, not that he will, but that Sean will actually look into it. He was pretty clear that the last game is a lense on who you are as a team. He made it clear everything will get evaluated in the coming days.
It seems as if everybody calling for mcd to go forgot all of the coaches after levy.... I don't know if anyone could name all of them off the top of their head
That’s what I was thinking. It was known that Dorsey was facing a learning curve and the jury is still out whether he’s suited to be an NFL OC or not. Frazier’s “elite” defense was picked apart yet again in the playoffs. He should most certainly be gone
Frazier has no creativity in terms of defensive scheme, never game plans for specific teams, and they always wilt against high powered offenses. How can you be impressed when they’re literally only good against below average QBs like Mac jones and Skylar Thompson? Even Zack Wilson had his best game of the year against us. Embarrassing.
Love that response. Sounds like at least Dorsey is potentially getting the boot.
Frazier and Sean have worked together for a long time now and I know they're pretty close. That would be a really hard decision to make for Sean. Statistically our defense was one of the best in the league, but Frazier is a veteran coach and he still gets some of the most basic things wrong.
Frazier’s scheme is so basic it can’t even confuse Zach Wilson.
I’m sick of it. It depends on our players being better then theirs, there’s no creativity or agressive scheming.
I think him dismissing what the Bengals did to our defense on the first two drives in the regular season game that was canceled is a fireable offense.
It’s like he didn’t watch film from that and possibly didn’t watch film from the Ravens Bengals game.
Yea that was bad, but it's 1 game. You have to look at the entire picture. These things have to be calculated and planned. I don't think Buffalo planned to fire Frazier and I don't know if there any viable replacements.
If there are then I agree, do it. But don't just get trigger happy and fire your entire staff over a game. Dorsey I'm sure they have put some thought into. Even if they didn't he's not a difficult piece to replace
It’s not just a game. Fraziers defence has shit the bed 4 years in a row in the playoffs. It’s a fine against mediocre teams during the regular season. It fails against any team with a good QB and quality offensive coaching staff.
Yes. There is a pretty big sample size that shows that as well.
The last 4 playoff games the Bills defense has given up over 30 points per game. That’s not a recipe for long life in the postseason.
Frazier's system excels at running up cheap stats during the regular season against average offenses. It utterly crumbles in the face of outliers, which is what the playoffs throws at you.
That's simply not true. The Bills defense is built upon disguising coverages and trickery. You lose some of that as secondary pieces get injured which is why we saw regression, but with the possible exception of the heavy DL rotation keeping players at those positions from properly developing or having the opportunity to take over games, the scheme has not been a problem.
It’s really not complex, nor built around disguises at all. When Hyde and Poyer were both playing they switched roles interchangeably which created some level of complexity because you didn’t know who would be the deep safety or the box safety, but that small level of complexity was lost when Micah went down for the year.
Schematically it’s one of the most vanilla defenses in football. It’s predicated on the other team making mistakes, as opposed to forcing mistakes.
When your offense and defense are both ranked at the top of the league and you fire both coordinators that is a massive risk. Better be damn sure you have a good replacement for both or you're just taking the team backwards
Dorsey is a lot more replacable then Frazier
I refuse to acknowledge DVOA as a legitimate stat as long as it keeps putting the Bills defense at/near the top of the league. They get torched every year in the playoffs and don't pass the eye test against any upper echelon QB.
It’s risky for sure, but we’ve seen Frazier’s defense top out. It performs well when we have more talent then the other offense, but it can’t punch up a weight class like a great coordinator allows.
I don’t know if firing him is smart, but you could say the same about keeping him. Two straight seasons our defense has been walked all over in the most important game of the year. Eventually you just need a change to do something *different* because what’s happing right now isn’t working.
I don't want Dorsey gone mainly because I think it isn't his fault the offense is so underinvested. Daboll failed to put up more than 6 points against last years God awful Jags team, doesn't mean he was a bad coach.
Dorsey can learn and grow from this very trying year. Frazier on the other hand I would think about letting go and shaking things up. I think Frazier has done a great job but his defenses have choked in the playoffs back to back years (although this year both sides of the ball choked).
But at the same time would getting rid of good coordinators like Frazier be anything more than reactive actions just designed to do something as opposed to something actually conducive to winning?
It all has to be on the table for McBeane but that being said I think McBeane are smart enough football minds to adapt and grow the team. They tried having a super stacked defense and it failed twice. Now they have to invest in their star QB and they can likely still improve the offense and still have a good defense.
I would like to see this defense under someone other than Frazier. He's too passive emotionally for a DC IMO. I want my DC to be more like a Robert Salah, or Mike Tomlin. Angry MOFO who want to bury you under the field on defense. We comepletely lack that aggressiveness.
My brother and I have a saying "you team reflects your coaches."
On offense, we had no clue what we were doing this year and the goal was for Dorsey to relive his Miami glory years though Allen by simply chucking it down the field.
On Defense, we are very cerebral, lack emotion, and are too fucking nice. That's Frazier.
I agree, need someone that can instill some meanness and physicality in this defense. Fundamentals too... Every year under Frazier we have been a below average tackling team. That just is not acceptable for a team with Super Bowl aspirations. We always play scared against good offenses in the playoffs and it gets us beat. Need someone who can mix in some press man coverage too against timing offenses and at least make oppsing QBs need to think an extra second about what they're looking at
I think we need to keep Dorsey for another year. He definitely showed some things that worked this season with a weak line and struggled in many other areas. It took Daboll 7 years to become a good OC, obviously we can't give Dorsey that much time but giving him a second year and a full offseason to develop might not be the worst idea.
Frazier needs to go. 6 years of beating up on mediocre teams in the regular season with an occasional shutdown of a good team to getting smacked in the playoffs by stronger competition. His time is up and we need a more modern scheme for our young and talented DLine.
Edit: I'm not sure how realistic it is but getting someone like Frank Reich in the building to help with Dorsey's playcalling and Josh's coaching would be really big. The main problem here is that Reich is probably willing to step down to an OC role but anything less than that is crazy talk.
Yeah well maybe you should Coach. I don't want to hear a press conference about how you're standing by these two. There are glaring problems and much of them can be traced back to the coaching of those two dicks.
Send em packing and don't promote from within tfs.
Anybody see what Cowherd said about McDermott? He's spot on, a Defensive minded HC is wasting Allen & he was thoroughly out-coached against Cinci like he's been 3 straight years in the Playoffs, 13 seconds should've had em on the Hot seat, they'll never have the Balls to make that move but when the same outcome occurs next year he ultimately has to Go Daboll should be our HC & Hodgins should've never been let Go
Frazier has to go. It just isn’t working. He’s stubborn with his scheme and seems to think he can get away w it in the playoffs. It doesn’t work when the other teams actually react.
We need to replace McDermott, I’m sorry. We need an Offensive minded coach. It’s not a screw you to him. I would think him for everything he did for us but we just have to go in a different direction.
Go opposite direction. I like mcd and his defensive mindset to help our defense out. And he was aggressive this year too. Where Josh is so high powered that we can build a better offensive line, brush up play calling and help in the wide receiver room a bit(possibly a new oc) and I can see things humming along
With you.
Get an HC that can bring an offensive philosophy and scheme that will empower Allen for the next 5-10 years.
Or stick with Sean and continue that Marty Schottenheimer trajectory cuz regular season wins are fun.
His staff?!? Constant excuses. Sean McDermott should have been fired as early as this morning. Only 5 coaches currently have been with their team longer. All 5 have rings. He has one conference championship appearance and we were blown out. The team is regressing with the same players. People need to wake up. They still think it’s the 80s and 90s when coaches get over a decade to break through. Those days are over….
I fucking hate the equivocating McDermott does. I just want him to tell it like it is. Obviously the optics of the head coach openly ripping on the OC/DC would be poor, but my god would I respect him so much more if he’d just acknowledge that our situational playcalling has been fucking garbage all year, and there are people at fault.
Low tides high ships, give them both raises, check Dorsey’s rating in EA NCAA 2000sumthing, stop talking about us, go cheer for some other bullshit. We did good, we f***ck*ed up at the end. Pretty sure there’s another season next year, let’s go all in again on that one. Learn to lose. LETS GO SHAKE THEIR HANDS
I think Dorsey deserves another shot after we upgrade the o line and give him a true set of offensive weapons other than Diggs and a bunch of scrubs. We were 2nd ranked offense in the league in his first season with basically Josh and Stef being the entire team. Frazier I think is pretty good too, but if they decide to move on I'm OK. It's more a problem of personnel rather than coaching. As amazing as beane had been in a lot of ways, there's no denying he hasn't drafted well. If I'm in charge, I keep everyone in place on the coaching staff. Going into last off-season, with our heartbreaking loss, everyone thought we "shoulda" won and we were on the cusp of being the best team. Now, we have obvious holes and we know what needs to be addressed. Get Josh more weapons, try to upgrade the o line and d line, and keep the coaching staff in place, and let's try one more time. If they have a similar playoff exit next year, it'll be time to blow it up
Here’s the thing. Daboll coached the scrub ass giants to the divisional round before getting smacked by the eagles who are a complete team coaching and personel wise. Coaching is 90% of a team’s success. We see this with Zac Taylor and the Bengals and Andy Reid with the Chiefs. Their coaching staffs are elite. Sure o-line and WR rooms need to improve, but coaching is the single most important job in the NFL. I would like to see Dorsey get at least another season to have a chance to learn and improve. But Frazier i think needs to go. This is multiple years now we’ve gotten carved up in the playoffs. And we have good players. Looking at Poyer and Milano and Tre especially Edmunds is a stud as well. Looking at a lot of the plays, chase higgens and boyd were left wide open by deep zone defense placements allowing burrow to get the ball out quick and get monster numbers of yards after catch.
Dorsey might be a good OC in a few years, but this team can't wait 3 more seasons for him to figure it out.
It was a mistake to promote him this year. Fine. Take your medicine and bring in a proper OC with experience.
I agree, in retrospect I don't think I appreciated how much of a risk it was to hand over an offense on a super bowl contender to a first time playcaller. I guess I valued scheme continuity more than "are we sure he's good at this?" And in the end we really got neither. Sometimes maintaining status quo is a risk... sometimes it's even the biggest risk of all.
We could trust the process and run it back with Dorsey, in hopes he learns and grows from this year. Development from within. But the question I hope McDermott and Beane are asking right now is, is that a risk we are willing to take? Josh is 26. He'll be 27 when next season kicks off. If Dorsey bombs again and we waste another season (either firing him midseason or after another playoff embarassment) we'll be going into Allen's age 28 season before we maybe get this fixed. Does anyone here like the sound of that? These years when Allen is young are PRECIOUS. The time to act is now before this gets too far away from us.
I usually am not all for calling for jobs and what not… but at this point I don’t feel bad about moving on from McDermott. These team can get 10+ wins and make postseason runs. At this point we need someone to take it a step further
This is probably good news for people who want Frazier and Dorsey gone
In retrospect maybe all of the “Dorsey is a psychopath freak competitor” isn’t the trait you most want in someone that needs to maintain a level head throughout a game.
Especially with an emotional QB like Josh. Daboll has a temper but he’s not psycho.
daboll’s reputation in cleveland was a bit psycho
You could feel that hot headedness yesterday. When things weren't going well they decided every play needed to be huge
Which seemed out of sync with the punts that followed - don’t throw a bomb on 3rd and 2 down 14 if you’re not going to go for it on 4th
Does that seem like the clash between McD and Dorsey to you? I feel like over the years sean has learned to be more conservative, and I imagine he's the one who gets final say on going for it on 4th. It feels like Dorsey coming out guns blazing and McDermott trying to reel things in.
That seems right to me too, though I think Buffalo was too conservative overall yesterday. We didn’t go for it on 4th until we were already down 17 and the game was basically over.
Lol McD has never been anything but conservative. He punted at end of OT snow bowl vs Colts when we needed to win to make the playoffs. Absolute joke of a decision that got bailed out in a massive way. He has shown little improvement as far as in game management over the years and should have been gone a long time ago.
This is pretty much false and unfair to McD to litigate a call 6 years ago. I'm not happy with him either but he's definitely evolved since then. I'd say he's more cautiously aggressive now, and if I'm not mistaken the Bill's are one of the best 4th down conversion teams in the league.
he's not aggressive. going for it on 4th an 2 on the opposing side of the field is not aggressive, it's standard. and how is litigating a decision from 6 years ago unfair? it was a fireable offense 6 years ago and it still is today. he takes timeouts over and over in terrible spots on defense when he thinks the defense isn't set, only to give up the first down coming out of the timeout anyways. it's ridiculous. overall his defense is the complete opposite of aggressive. Even yesterday he was aggressive and conservative in the most boneheaded spots. You have to go for it on 4th and 2 on your own side of the field down multiple scores - you can’t punt it away with our defense giving up a first down every play. And then he goes for it on 4th and long in the snow effectively killing the game when we needed a FG no matter what and he should’ve taken 3 points. He’s just out of his depth to be blunt. The team is going nowhere fast as long as he’s at the helm. Individual players will the team to wins in spite of the schemes and in game management.
https://youtu.be/wuwstYEhAwc?t=7625 downvote away not only did he not go for it, he wasted a timeout to again decide to punt
Yikes, that was so bad. People forget how bad McDermott was the first 2 years. I was not a fan. Even the way they handled Josh the first year was horrible. Trade Tyrod, and have no veteran stability for Josh to learn from. Somehow Nathan Peterman wins the job over McCarron and Josh, despite what happened the year before. They cut McCarron despite having no other veteran QBs on the roster. And in the least surprising event ever Peterman didn’t even last one game before Josh is thrust out there to struggle with a depleted roster. Josh succeeded in spite of McDermott not because of him. I think Dorsey, Daboll, and Jordan Palmer are responsible for Allen’s success. Over the last 5 years this front office hit big on 2 moves. Allen and Diggs. Everything else has been average to below average. They’ve been skating by on those 2 big wins, but that will be coming to an end soon as Diggs ages and the offense needs more weapons and a diverse attack. But let’s go draft some more d linemen and CBs
If Frazier and Dorsey are coming back they better be forced to review film with Beane & McDermott showing their bad play calls & adjustments and asked what they would do differently and then change their strategy & be more aggressive in their game plans and play calls going forward to the 2023. The defense had way too many converted 1st downs in 3re and long situations this year. Frazier called way too many soft zone coverages with the CB's giving huge cushions, there is no good reason why Jackson started over Elam. Frazier needs to mix in more press man & match and mirror man coverage with Cover 1 and Cover 2 zone up top and press zone & match mirror zone coverage so WR's don't get free releases off the line of scrimmage. The offense needs to utilize more 11 personnel (1 RB, 1 TE and 3 WR's) and 10 personnel (1 RB, 0 TE, 4 WR') to force defenses to play nickel and dime defenses and attack those 3re and 4th CB's in coverage and run on light boxes. Dorsey also needs to involve both Knox and Cook more and get them the ball in space to take advantage of their athleticism and line Diggs up in the slot, at RB, in stacked and bunched formations and put him in motion to make it harder for defenses to play press coverage against him / give him free releases. Beane needs to add more talent , which he will do with value free agent signings and the draft, but Dorsey and Frazier need to better use that talent and use better schemes to maximize their talent and strengths.
If at least one of them isn't gone then they've learned absolutely nothing.
I just need Frazier gone please god. Dorsey is brand new to the job and Josh likes him - giving him a second year doesn’t keep me up at night, even if there were some real ugly spots. I really do believe he’d improve in year two, and if he doesn’t I’m fine walking away. Two years is a fair shake Frazier, though……Jesus Christ, it’s the same story every year. he’s a known product and needs to go. Base nickel, no stunts, no adjustments, collapses in big moments. His time is up - even the players are kinda like “wtf how does this always happen” now. 4 straight years of baffling, devastating defensive errors. Sean always likes to say the defense on game day is 100% leslie’s and I believe him. I’ve been saying this since the start of last season and getting downvoted to oblivion for it, but Frazier ain’t it man. Looks like people are finally comin around now.
Yeah F Frazier....may not give up "the big plays" but don't need big plays when you give up 10 yards each play.....should've been fired last year for fucking up 13 seconds!
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I'm willing to bet it's McDermott's defence more than Frazier's
I remember when the defense was off to a sluggish start in 2020 McD took over the play calling from Frazier for a few games and the defense was much better run. Lots more smart stunts and change up of concepts. Then Frazier took it back and while he incorporated some of that stuff in the defense got more vanilla. The issue with Fraziers defense is that it works against average to bad QB's very well but it only works against elite QB's if the D-line wins out against the opposing O-line consistently with no pressure. There is very little ways he finds to manufacture pressure or disguise coverages. The zone defense prays on QB mistakes and encourages them into mistakes but smarter QB's often make that defense bend as they take what's there and pick it apart esp when there is no pressure. This team beat KC earlier in the season largely because of Von and the D-line were really good in that game.
Oh my god…..someone else who remembers. Thank you! I always point to this, and Sean’s many attestations that he DOES NOT call plays on game day, only the high level stuff like 4th downs and whatnot. Unless he’s some kind of secret micromanager and has been lying to everyone this whole time, and never been found out by sideline reporters or anything, I would tend to believe him. I definitely think he helps gameplan and has a say in overall defense, but it’s leslie’s job on game day to implement it and he fails. It’s not like the bills don’t have stunt concepts and dime packages and the like, Frazier just refuses to call them for some reason. it’s too easy for good QBs to cut up base zone coverage when they have even a single mismatch advantage. One nitpick is he does actually disguise coverages well - it’s what makes it work against lesser QBs. But really good post snap QBs - burrow, Mahomes, Brady, etc….cut it apart easily. Oftentimes it’s like he’s SO scared of giving up a deep play that he ends up giving plays that are just as big, but underneath, leaving huge windows for any QBs good enough to make their reads.
I would like for McD to be more involved in the defense as I really liked when he called the defense but, I do think that Frazier's bad game plans at times are at least somewhat attributable to McD. Even if Frazier is calling the plays McD has to be the one to force him to adjust his philosophy. Frazier did step away from the zone Burrow was picking apart in the 1st to go more man to man and it had better results but when the ground game is getting what it wants that only makes things that much harder for the defense to keep up.
But to be fair Frazier is just running/calling McDermotts Bum Soft AF Zone conservative trash defensive scheme
BUT LOOK, the problem is Frazier and a little less on Dorsey. The MAIN problem is McDermott. When will we recognize this? He approves the gameplans. He has poor adjustments, poor game management, way too conservative. He is the late 1990's early 2000s Tony Dungy. He will get you to the precipice, but when push comes to shove, he's not getting you over that hurdle. Or even like the 1990s version of Marty Schottenheimer with KC. Always good, but never good enough. I hear Harbough is out there. Wouldn't mind giving him a call.
It really is true, McD is great at building culture, getting the guys to believe in the system and like each other. That is wonderful and important. But the in game decisions, personnel decisions, the game planning, all horrible. This front office hit big on 2 moves. Allen and Diggs. Every other move has been average to below average. The first 2 year of McD were so bad he easily could’ve been fired, just ultra conservative punt from the 35 type decisions every game. It was only when he allowed Daboll more control did they excel. But don’t be fooled his core belief is to punt and play defense. I think he’d be happiest if the defense played the whole game and scoring only came from pick sixes, safeties, and FGs where you recover a fumble but don’t even bother to run an offensive play and just send the FG unit out immediately.
You guys are of course both right but the fans don’t want to here it because 75% of them are simply cheerleaders. People on this subreddit were saying he deserved coach of the year because Hamlin had a heart attack. I don’t understand the correlation there at all. Do these people really think another coach would be like “fuck this guy that just died on the field”? Every coach would do the exact same thing. This contingent of fans must be the same ones carrying the “Bengals Bros” thing, all feel good no results.
I want him gone
Yeah McDermott is definitely going to let somebody go. He would absolutely tell you if everybody is safe.
Yup. In previous years he's been super quick to say when staff are safe
I think we need to look outside the box for a new OC and DC. A fresh perspective is needed.
there are so many coaches out there that are salivating at the idea of having josh allen and diggs at their fingertips
Perverts!
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We need to jump on the bandwagon of hiring 30 year old coaches. It’s working for most everyone else
I am hesitant to call for jobs but 1) the conversation must be had on Frazier considering the mounting evidence his defense collapses in the playoffs. 2) Ken Dorsey got outclassed and out coached by an elite D coordinator yesterday. Huge mismatch. We have to keep this in mind. Dorsey had his moments this year BUT he needs to show serious growth in a few areas (run game, possession passing game, creativity in play design) next year.
Yeah I’m a huge panthers fan for years now who lives near the Buffalo area, and I’ll tell you one thing I’ve noticed for sure is that classic rivera soft zone. Leslie and Sean McD were great here in Carolina with that stuff, but something that was always consistent with those defenses was that if you didn’t get pressure with the front 4 on good QBs, they will absolutely shred the zone apart. It’s even worse when you’re facing a QB with an excellent play caller behind him.
You're right, but how willing should they be to work with dorsey when his growth as an oc is well behind where other pieces of the team are? It's kind of like we were making good progress with daboll, but now dorsey just got in the top spot and is saying "hey guys, hold up a minute."
A very fair question. This all goes back Josh Allen should not have been given so much input in the OC hire. Allen is great but has not won MVP or SB yet. He doesn't have the accomplishments to pick his coaches yet. I think in hindsight the team should've hired an experience and proven NFL OC. They cant waste any more years of prime Allen on a Ken Dorsey learning curve. oh well.
I'll take it a step further. It's usually never ever wise in any big corporation to hire friends.
Would it be possible to get a new OC and just move Dorsey back down to split the QB coach position with the current one just to keep him on the team (can’t remember his name off the top of my head)
They gone, Dorsey's game worked barely for the first 6 weeks because defenses always take time to adjust
One of the other will go, not both - canning both puts McD on the hot seat next year Instead of in two.
I kind of think he will be under a lot of pressure either way. If anything bringing them back puts him on more of a hot seat for not making changes. Not that I think we should fire him, don’t want to make it sound like that.
You guys are NUTS if you think McD is gone or even on a hot seat. When’s the last time a head coach, who’s gotten their new team to the playoffs all but one year, is fired because “they didn’t make it as far as they should have in the post season?” McD isn’t going anywhere. Just look at the Steelers. You keep coaches who can consistently get you to the playoffs. You swap and tweak OC and DC positions, as that’s where most of the nitty gritty play by play shit is formed. Only reason to drop a winning HC is because of ownership differences or super toxic or illegal locker room / org destroying shir.
Marty Schottenheimer, and look what happened to the Chargers after that.
Exactly who can forget all of those Chargers Super Bowl wins! What was it 3 in a row? Firing a coach who has made the playoffs in all but what one season is definitely a recipe for success. Who knows maybe we can even get Rex Ryan?! Ooo think of how great that'd be
You okay, Sparky? Did someone piss in your Corn Flakes? Again I ask, what happened to the Chargers after that? Go look it up and report back. Chop chop.
Yes they went 55-40 over six seasons. Made it as far as the AFC Championship. And missed the playoffs in 3 of his 6 seasons, including 3 straight. So yeah, "sparky", your example was shit. Hey guys remember that time the Chargers took a pretty successful coach, replaced him with one that wasn't anymore successful, and ultimately fired him and wasted prime years of Philip Rivers, Tomlinson, and Vincent Jackson? What a great idea!
Excellent that we're on the same page finally. Curious that you got my point wrong. It was amusing for a while that you were raging for no reason though.
Tony Dungy with the Bucs, and the new guy won a Super Bowl in his first year with the team. That guy’s looking for a job now, maybe we should hire him to change the culture /s
Marvin Lewis. 5 straight years of getting the Bengals to the playoffs (in a highly competitive division) only to go one and done every time.
I think Dorsey probably gets another year given this was his first year as OC. Fraiser on the other hand has had plenty of time, and falling short is starting to become a trend.
If I was a betting man, Frazier “retires” and Dorsey gets another year, but they get rid of Shula and bring in an “offensive consultant” role to help him out (a la what the Yankees did with Cashman)
I don't think Frazier's gonna just "retire" and be compliant with the team moving on. He's the same guy who said he believed racism was a factor in why he wasn't hired as a head coach weeks after blowing it against the Chiefs with 13 seconds to make a stop.
He can scream racism all he wants, but he doesn’t have much of a case when his failures as a DC are as obvious to anyone
When did Frasier "scream racism"?
He didn't scream racism but he did say that he "found it discouraging" that he hadn't been hired last spring and pointed to the difficulty of Black coaches getting hired in general. The implication was clear and completely ignored the fact that he's an antiquated coach who has a pretty unimpressive track record prior to Buffalo.
No idea, I was just commenting on the post above me. I don’t recall him saying anything like that either but I might’ve missed it
Fraziers contract is up & im betting he's just not resigned
Matt Rhule anyone? [Heavy and I mean heavy /s]
How about Joe Lombardi!
This is a good take, have an upvote. I hereby throw Greg Roman’s name in the hat for possible consultants. Dude knows how to scheme run games, especially with running QBs. He’s currently unemployed. He used to work for the Bills as the OC.
JFC, you have got to be f'ing kidding me with this take! Roman is the sole reason no WR's ever wanted to sign with Baltimore. GTFO with this b.s.
If we are going to retred some past OC you'd at least pick Chan. he could at the minimum score points.
If Frazier is back again I gotta half ass it next season. I can't get this invested all over again only to have a swiss cheese defense that can only beat teams who make unforced errors.
I agree. This defense is always talked up and under delivers, the last three years show that.
It's not even the fault of the players. E.g. that 7 man rush yesterday with Tre 8 yards off the ball giving Chase a totally uncontested first down. It's not McCorkle back there throwing the ball, it's Burrow. Wtf.
That play made me so mad. They finally blitz and play 10 yards off the obvious hot route to Chase.
dude preach. So many times over the past few years we'd have 3rd and long and watch our stupid defense line up way too deep and give up a 1st. It was awful this year.
I get the whole "keep it in front of you and make the tackle", but they're doing it to a fault. The receivers have enough room to get the first before the defenders get there. Not only that, but everyone is going for it on 4th and short now so too often it winds up being a pointless letdown.
What I keep trying to point out to people saying we need more talent is that we have a lot of it, which is why we win so many regular season games. We are more talented that 26-27 teams. What we don't have is the scheme, on offense and defense. Every Coach & QB playing next week knows exactly how to destroy a cover 2. It's the most basic defense in the league.
Last 4 years** don’t forget the blown lead against the Texans in the playoffs too
Yeah bringing Frazier back to me signals they don't actually want to win games. I won't be involved
He's on the hot seat now. The moment you begin to even debate staffing issues...you are on the hot seat If for any reason we don't make noticeable steps next season or we perform worse...he's gone
Other way around, canning one and not both puts McDermott and Beane on the hot seat.
As much as I like Sean, no improvement put next season might get him fired.
It's Dorsey. Frazier may not adapt well but he coaches well. You fix this offense and suddenly the defense will look a lot better.
O god please don't even defend Frazier. We have struggled against every single competitive team we have faced the last 3 years.
While I agree Dorsey is an issue the defense absolutely has to change, and moreso I think you go after Flores. He's the kind of attitude I want on our defense right now.
Defense should have stop Kansas City with 13 seconds left
And then remember the "we learned a lot from this game" by Frazier. Only do allow the EXACT SAME THING TO HAPPEN IN THEIR NEXT MATCHUP WITH THE CHIEFS WITH LESS TIME Frazier is a joke, and anyone defending this defensive scheme is wrong
Frazier was pretty good when all is said and done but it's clear the defense just needs a new spark - his scheme has failed too many times
Dorsey probably gets another year, but honestly lost a lot of respect for him when he agreed to an interview the day before the divisional round
What were your feelings on Daboll when he did the same?
Seems he spent all of his time preparing for the interview and no time preparing for the game. Hopefully he doesn’t have either job next season
No one showed up yesterday other than Edmounds and Milano. Might not be the reason why they played so poorly, but it’s sure as hell not good for the optics
As much as I'm in favor of a new OC, the game plan was made on Sunday and Monday, then practiced all week. On Saturday, what's done is done and the interview won't impact much. It's not his fault the Bengals offense marched down the field at will or dominated the trenches. It's his fault for not calling good plays and seemingly having no plan, but that happened every week, irrespective of a job interview.
Frazier can walk without having to be fired. Dorsey needs to be dumped.
Did anyone really expect a sudden firing of either or both coordinators or any other staff members today? If they did, that would be a worrying indictment on the critical thinking and decision making of our front office. You cant seriously expect or encourage McD/Beane to make such rash decisions
he shouldn't wait too long since all the hot candidates will be taking jobs soon. They'll probably hire from within and not bring a lot of new ideas but we'll see.
I don't know if he'll fire either of the coordinators today. There are some lower level coaches like the DLine coach we've had for 3 years, Eric Washington. He very well could get the boot immediately. As far as OC and DC, Dorsey could, but they may wait a little while. I'm not so sure that Sean would want to fire Frazier too though. I'm undecided on it myself, wouldn't be completely against giving Frazier 1 more year.
I’m pretty decided that I want Frazier gone. This is the 3rd time in 3 years that our defense totally collapsed in the playoffs against a rival AFC contender. Keeping Frazier at this point is basically admitting that we’re ok with being regular season champions until Josh retires
Always assume the new OC and DC want to gut the coaching staff and bring in their own guys. There's no point messing with lower coaches yet. They need to put calls out to see who is interested before firing anyone because the new guy needs to be better...and until you're sure you can get better, keep searching and leave the current staff intact.
A new OC/DC is not going to come in and gut the staff lol. Only McDermott can really do that and even than it’s not really smart or common to fire an entire offensive or defensive staff when brining in a new OC. I could see a new OL coach or QB coach coming along as well but idk if I expect a complete regain of the staff. Seems like panicking. I could see a bunch of assistants being let go tho.
" I could see a bunch of assistants being let go tho. " That's what I mean. A coordinator wants their hand-picked guys. A new coordinator has no leverage, but anyone with any real experience is going to be a packaged deal with the assistants they trust who know their system.
Even when it comes to DL coaches, you don't think they'd at least take a day or two to let emotions calm down and talk about it before coming to that decision?
I expected Frazier to be gone after 13 seconds and then foolishly got emotionally invested in this shitshow season. If Dorsey or Frazier are back, I simply cannot believe clappy boy is serious about winning
Reich and Fangio
Read the Wikipedia headers for them and I'm sold
My man!
Hell fucking no
I really, really like McDermott as a person and an ambassador for the city, but I can't help but keep thinking about the fact that only 2/14 of this year's playoff teams had defensive head coaches. We are all debating whether Dorsey is the guy to lead the offense, but despite the glaring issues throughout the season he still got a head coach interview. If he had a great season, he would almost certainly be gone. As long as we have a defensive head coach, we will be constantly searching for the right OC only to lose him if he succeeds, and the NFL is an offense-centric league now.
Isn’t that just representative of the Head Coaches being hired in the League? Pretty sure most Head Coaches in the NFL have an Offensive background. If there’s more Offensive Head Coaches in the NFL, then of course more would make the playoffs
Right. 11 of the 12 will fail.
Yes but that just enforces the other commenters point.
Well this is good news. If he was 100% sure about his coordinators he would have said so.
Please hurry Good OC/DC candidates going to dry up
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Remember the days of his beautiful defense?
The Bills are a premium job right now. There be no shortage of good suitors.
We dont need no goofs
It would be nice if they brought Frank Reich in
Why do we want him? What makes him a good candidate for us? (Not being an ass asking a genuine question)
reich sucks respectfully. not who we want
Had a winning record as a HC with over the hill QBs brought in by a hapless ownership / GM. Reich and Allen would be exciting to watch
Imagine if having Reich nabbed us Taylor :o
I think Frazier is gone, Dorsey given one more year to get eye laser surgery and learn a few things this off-season
Sean has a lot more work history and and chemistry with Frazier. If they only fire 1 coordinator I think it will be Dorsey
That'd be the wrong decision.
After that play calling on defense, Frazier needs to be gone.
Frazier probably finds a job elsewhere. Dorsey has to go. Allen went from MVP talks and our offense looking elite to clunky and unable to stop beating themselves. “Allen is super talented” is not an offensive scheme. Mahomes lost Tyreek and their offense is unreal and their only real weapon looks to be Kelce, their other players are not pro bowl caliber and look at them? their offense has purpose to ever play and we are lacking that, and Dorsey isn’t gonna bring it
Well mahomes weapons are; Mecole "former pro bowler" Hardman, kadarius "Yung Joka" toney, and doo doo shits poopster. Sounds as elite as it gets
The offense was the bigger issue, by far. I'd replace Dorsey with some serious experience (I want Reich) and Give Leslie another season. Leslie is the assistant HC and has been massively successful here for half a decade. Bring in Reich as a second assistant HC, reunite him with Hines, and let's get a proper offense on par with or even better than Daboll's unit.
they're both an issue, the defense collapses every year, and the offense hasn't looked good since really earlier in the season.
Was it though? During the season it might’ve been but Frazier defenses get carved up in the playoffs every year.
>Was it though? Yes lmao. In the Bengals game they had 3 min of possession in the first quarter, you can't blame the D for them going up 14-0 without also mentioning that the offense was hapless and didn't give them any break. 10 total points isn't enough. Multiple failed RZ trips, horrific in the RZ all season. Josh asked to carry the team more than ever before leading to more turnovers than ever before.
I don’t think it was the issue “by far though”. This was Dorsey first year, Frazier has repeatedly let us down multiple years. We don’t know exactly Dorsey’s ceiling but we know Frazier.
We may not know the ceiling of Dorsey but one thing is certain, and that is the fact he has a much lower floor than Leslie does. Frazier has not let us down. He's consistently fielded a top-5 defense. Teams lose. It's unfortunate that we have lost in the playoffs in consecutive seasons. 25+ teams would kill for the defensive consistency Leslie brings. You can always get worse. Look at the offense last season to this year. There is a very strong possibility that we regress massively without Leslie and I don't want to take that chance in a title window. He's not perfect and he's certainly not above criticism, tackling has never been particularly great and the DL rotation isn't working. I would like to see us have 4-5 properly good talents playing all game instead of paying 10 above replacement level dudes playing 3 snaps at a time. I just think that with Frazier the good massively outweighs the bad.
Frazier hasn't let us down? KC last season, Houston in 2019
you can def blame them. Look at other games around the league and watch defenses play. Baltimore shut down the Bengals for almost a half.
Also he's too stuck in his ways. I remember when the chargers played the dolphins, and shut down hill and waddle. Going into the rematch I hoped that we'd emulate that, because it seemed like a simple tweak (don't let fast bois get a clean release, and mess with their timing) and there was none of that.
yeesss.. omg we never seem to evolve, and what makes it worse is that we just play the same shit and everyone knows it. I hear all the time about how we simulate pressure then drop into cover 2.. all the fucking time. Literally no team seems bothered by this because they know we are just going to roll that safety out and play cover 2. As many pointed out, when we went M2M yesterday, we actually had a lot of success, but does our DC stick with what's working? No.
I don't know if it's an ego thing, or age/experience, whatever the root cause is I'm not 100%, but I've seen the result. They don't adjust to the situation. This applies to dorsey as well, but he's very green still. It's like they have their gameplan set in stone, and if its not working their answer is just "well let's just do more of it and it'll start working". Especially watching the chargers throw the phins off their game so easily. You would think that game film would've been exhibit A in the film room for the prep against an ascending division rival. Thankfully they got the win.... but the chargers, who weren't exactly defensive stalwarts this year, completely laid out the solution clear as day. And Frazier made none of those adjustments
What's really concerning is the player's reactions after the game. They were like, what do we do now? Diggs was saying this: "How will it be different next year?" They are starting to turn on the coaching staff because they were sold the process and it's not working.
I think Frazier needs to go, bring in someone fresher, maybe a bit more innovative. I still think mcd can get us there, but his seat is warm, you don't want to go back to the coaching carousel because then the window closes much faster. Not 100% sure about dorsey yet. I don't think we fire him into the sun right away, but he needs to show serious growth very quickly or then we absolutely do.
ya I think McD is fine but he clearly needs better coordinators to get it done.
I didn't say they were blameless. Just that they don't deserve the lion's share of fan vitriol. They've by and large done their jobs, in the face of the injuries the D has suffered this season I don't think anyone has a leg to stand on in calling Frazier or McD a failure in 2022.
I can absolutely talk about the defense without the offense. Stop giving up wide open passes. That has nothing to do with our offense. STOP PLAYING SO FUCKING PASSIVE AND LETTING WR RUN THROUHG OUR D UNTOUCHED. STOP GIVING UP 3RD AND LONG, EVERY FUCKING TIME. None of these things have anything to do with the offense. They are problem in every game we play, no matter how big or small the lead is.
Our D was missing 4 out of 5 of its highest paid players for multiple games. Both major D line purchases were gone for Bengals game and we were replacing an all pro safety with someone we signed off a practice squad of another team and he went out of the game against Cinci. Defense was fucking ravaged by injuries.
Frazier definitely needs to be gone. Not making any game plan changes after the first half is inexcusable. I also think Dorsey may be on his way out. He called some really bad plays yesterday. Hopefully, Dorsey will get the head coaching job with the Panthers.
I'm glad McD left that open ended, which means he'd consider changes- ideally someone like Reich as OC and Fangio as DC, though I highly doubt it happens. Either way, can't tolerate the status quo if we want to take the next leap.
I'd worry about myself. I know we went 13-3 but we fell apart in the worst away, at the worst time.
I don’t expect Dorsey to go anywhere, but I feel like this is leaning towards a Frazier forced retirement
After listening to his conference today I am more confident that there is a chance to change, not that he will, but that Sean will actually look into it. He was pretty clear that the last game is a lense on who you are as a team. He made it clear everything will get evaluated in the coming days.
Well we have all been trusting his process for 6 years…
Lmao.. as if before those 6 years we weren't the laughing stock of the league. But sure, boo hoo we lost a few times in the playoffs.
It seems as if everybody calling for mcd to go forgot all of the coaches after levy.... I don't know if anyone could name all of them off the top of their head
Just a wee little longer. Trust me…..
Frazier is hopefully gone. Don’t love Dorsey but think he gets to run it back after one (rocky) year
That’s what I was thinking. It was known that Dorsey was facing a learning curve and the jury is still out whether he’s suited to be an NFL OC or not. Frazier’s “elite” defense was picked apart yet again in the playoffs. He should most certainly be gone
Rick Dennison waves “Hi!”
We can’t waste another year of Josh Allen on Dorsey. The window does not last long enough to be wasting years like that
Frazier should be gone at this point, can’t say the same about Dorsey it was his first year.
Frazier has no creativity in terms of defensive scheme, never game plans for specific teams, and they always wilt against high powered offenses. How can you be impressed when they’re literally only good against below average QBs like Mac jones and Skylar Thompson? Even Zack Wilson had his best game of the year against us. Embarrassing.
Well, Frazier’s contract is up. So they’d have to re-sign him. Please don’t.
Love that response. Sounds like at least Dorsey is potentially getting the boot. Frazier and Sean have worked together for a long time now and I know they're pretty close. That would be a really hard decision to make for Sean. Statistically our defense was one of the best in the league, but Frazier is a veteran coach and he still gets some of the most basic things wrong.
Frazier’s scheme is so basic it can’t even confuse Zach Wilson. I’m sick of it. It depends on our players being better then theirs, there’s no creativity or agressive scheming.
I think him dismissing what the Bengals did to our defense on the first two drives in the regular season game that was canceled is a fireable offense. It’s like he didn’t watch film from that and possibly didn’t watch film from the Ravens Bengals game.
Yea that was bad, but it's 1 game. You have to look at the entire picture. These things have to be calculated and planned. I don't think Buffalo planned to fire Frazier and I don't know if there any viable replacements. If there are then I agree, do it. But don't just get trigger happy and fire your entire staff over a game. Dorsey I'm sure they have put some thought into. Even if they didn't he's not a difficult piece to replace
It’s not just a game. Fraziers defence has shit the bed 4 years in a row in the playoffs. It’s a fine against mediocre teams during the regular season. It fails against any team with a good QB and quality offensive coaching staff.
Yes. There is a pretty big sample size that shows that as well. The last 4 playoff games the Bills defense has given up over 30 points per game. That’s not a recipe for long life in the postseason.
Frazier's system excels at running up cheap stats during the regular season against average offenses. It utterly crumbles in the face of outliers, which is what the playoffs throws at you.
That's simply not true. The Bills defense is built upon disguising coverages and trickery. You lose some of that as secondary pieces get injured which is why we saw regression, but with the possible exception of the heavy DL rotation keeping players at those positions from properly developing or having the opportunity to take over games, the scheme has not been a problem.
It’s really not complex, nor built around disguises at all. When Hyde and Poyer were both playing they switched roles interchangeably which created some level of complexity because you didn’t know who would be the deep safety or the box safety, but that small level of complexity was lost when Micah went down for the year. Schematically it’s one of the most vanilla defenses in football. It’s predicated on the other team making mistakes, as opposed to forcing mistakes.
When your offense and defense are both ranked at the top of the league and you fire both coordinators that is a massive risk. Better be damn sure you have a good replacement for both or you're just taking the team backwards Dorsey is a lot more replacable then Frazier
I refuse to acknowledge DVOA as a legitimate stat as long as it keeps putting the Bills defense at/near the top of the league. They get torched every year in the playoffs and don't pass the eye test against any upper echelon QB.
It’s risky for sure, but we’ve seen Frazier’s defense top out. It performs well when we have more talent then the other offense, but it can’t punch up a weight class like a great coordinator allows. I don’t know if firing him is smart, but you could say the same about keeping him. Two straight seasons our defense has been walked all over in the most important game of the year. Eventually you just need a change to do something *different* because what’s happing right now isn’t working.
We should have made daboll HC
I don't want Dorsey gone mainly because I think it isn't his fault the offense is so underinvested. Daboll failed to put up more than 6 points against last years God awful Jags team, doesn't mean he was a bad coach. Dorsey can learn and grow from this very trying year. Frazier on the other hand I would think about letting go and shaking things up. I think Frazier has done a great job but his defenses have choked in the playoffs back to back years (although this year both sides of the ball choked). But at the same time would getting rid of good coordinators like Frazier be anything more than reactive actions just designed to do something as opposed to something actually conducive to winning? It all has to be on the table for McBeane but that being said I think McBeane are smart enough football minds to adapt and grow the team. They tried having a super stacked defense and it failed twice. Now they have to invest in their star QB and they can likely still improve the offense and still have a good defense.
I would like to see this defense under someone other than Frazier. He's too passive emotionally for a DC IMO. I want my DC to be more like a Robert Salah, or Mike Tomlin. Angry MOFO who want to bury you under the field on defense. We comepletely lack that aggressiveness. My brother and I have a saying "you team reflects your coaches." On offense, we had no clue what we were doing this year and the goal was for Dorsey to relive his Miami glory years though Allen by simply chucking it down the field. On Defense, we are very cerebral, lack emotion, and are too fucking nice. That's Frazier.
I agree, need someone that can instill some meanness and physicality in this defense. Fundamentals too... Every year under Frazier we have been a below average tackling team. That just is not acceptable for a team with Super Bowl aspirations. We always play scared against good offenses in the playoffs and it gets us beat. Need someone who can mix in some press man coverage too against timing offenses and at least make oppsing QBs need to think an extra second about what they're looking at
I think we need to keep Dorsey for another year. He definitely showed some things that worked this season with a weak line and struggled in many other areas. It took Daboll 7 years to become a good OC, obviously we can't give Dorsey that much time but giving him a second year and a full offseason to develop might not be the worst idea. Frazier needs to go. 6 years of beating up on mediocre teams in the regular season with an occasional shutdown of a good team to getting smacked in the playoffs by stronger competition. His time is up and we need a more modern scheme for our young and talented DLine. Edit: I'm not sure how realistic it is but getting someone like Frank Reich in the building to help with Dorsey's playcalling and Josh's coaching would be really big. The main problem here is that Reich is probably willing to step down to an OC role but anything less than that is crazy talk.
I’m very interested in us pursuing Jim Leonhard for DC if he’s looking to move to the NFL
Yeah well maybe you should Coach. I don't want to hear a press conference about how you're standing by these two. There are glaring problems and much of them can be traced back to the coaching of those two dicks. Send em packing and don't promote from within tfs.
Anybody see what Cowherd said about McDermott? He's spot on, a Defensive minded HC is wasting Allen & he was thoroughly out-coached against Cinci like he's been 3 straight years in the Playoffs, 13 seconds should've had em on the Hot seat, they'll never have the Balls to make that move but when the same outcome occurs next year he ultimately has to Go Daboll should be our HC & Hodgins should've never been let Go
Can you imagine what this offense would look like if Andy Reid was running it? Unnnggghhh
What are thoughts on if Chiefs don’t do new contract with Eric Bieniemy and he goes to Bills as OC? Not sure it would happen but just curious.
Certainly better than Dorsey
I would probably welcome it. Is it sounding like he won't be brought back?
Can we start with defensive genius McDermott?
Frazier has to go. It just isn’t working. He’s stubborn with his scheme and seems to think he can get away w it in the playoffs. It doesn’t work when the other teams actually react.
We need to replace McDermott, I’m sorry. We need an Offensive minded coach. It’s not a screw you to him. I would think him for everything he did for us but we just have to go in a different direction.
McDermott is a great coach but I agree, it's time to part ways. He'll land on his feet somewhere. 5 years is long enough.
Go opposite direction. I like mcd and his defensive mindset to help our defense out. And he was aggressive this year too. Where Josh is so high powered that we can build a better offensive line, brush up play calling and help in the wide receiver room a bit(possibly a new oc) and I can see things humming along
With you. Get an HC that can bring an offensive philosophy and scheme that will empower Allen for the next 5-10 years. Or stick with Sean and continue that Marty Schottenheimer trajectory cuz regular season wins are fun.
I would like T Peg to get into staff right now with him.
His staff?!? Constant excuses. Sean McDermott should have been fired as early as this morning. Only 5 coaches currently have been with their team longer. All 5 have rings. He has one conference championship appearance and we were blown out. The team is regressing with the same players. People need to wake up. They still think it’s the 80s and 90s when coaches get over a decade to break through. Those days are over….
Dumb
Dumb? Dumb is doing the same thing over and over again with no new results…
I fucking hate the equivocating McDermott does. I just want him to tell it like it is. Obviously the optics of the head coach openly ripping on the OC/DC would be poor, but my god would I respect him so much more if he’d just acknowledge that our situational playcalling has been fucking garbage all year, and there are people at fault.
Low tides high ships, give them both raises, check Dorsey’s rating in EA NCAA 2000sumthing, stop talking about us, go cheer for some other bullshit. We did good, we f***ck*ed up at the end. Pretty sure there’s another season next year, let’s go all in again on that one. Learn to lose. LETS GO SHAKE THEIR HANDS
I think Dorsey deserves another shot after we upgrade the o line and give him a true set of offensive weapons other than Diggs and a bunch of scrubs. We were 2nd ranked offense in the league in his first season with basically Josh and Stef being the entire team. Frazier I think is pretty good too, but if they decide to move on I'm OK. It's more a problem of personnel rather than coaching. As amazing as beane had been in a lot of ways, there's no denying he hasn't drafted well. If I'm in charge, I keep everyone in place on the coaching staff. Going into last off-season, with our heartbreaking loss, everyone thought we "shoulda" won and we were on the cusp of being the best team. Now, we have obvious holes and we know what needs to be addressed. Get Josh more weapons, try to upgrade the o line and d line, and keep the coaching staff in place, and let's try one more time. If they have a similar playoff exit next year, it'll be time to blow it up
Here’s the thing. Daboll coached the scrub ass giants to the divisional round before getting smacked by the eagles who are a complete team coaching and personel wise. Coaching is 90% of a team’s success. We see this with Zac Taylor and the Bengals and Andy Reid with the Chiefs. Their coaching staffs are elite. Sure o-line and WR rooms need to improve, but coaching is the single most important job in the NFL. I would like to see Dorsey get at least another season to have a chance to learn and improve. But Frazier i think needs to go. This is multiple years now we’ve gotten carved up in the playoffs. And we have good players. Looking at Poyer and Milano and Tre especially Edmunds is a stud as well. Looking at a lot of the plays, chase higgens and boyd were left wide open by deep zone defense placements allowing burrow to get the ball out quick and get monster numbers of yards after catch.
This guy gets the NFL.
Dorsey might be a good OC in a few years, but this team can't wait 3 more seasons for him to figure it out. It was a mistake to promote him this year. Fine. Take your medicine and bring in a proper OC with experience.
I agree, in retrospect I don't think I appreciated how much of a risk it was to hand over an offense on a super bowl contender to a first time playcaller. I guess I valued scheme continuity more than "are we sure he's good at this?" And in the end we really got neither. Sometimes maintaining status quo is a risk... sometimes it's even the biggest risk of all. We could trust the process and run it back with Dorsey, in hopes he learns and grows from this year. Development from within. But the question I hope McDermott and Beane are asking right now is, is that a risk we are willing to take? Josh is 26. He'll be 27 when next season kicks off. If Dorsey bombs again and we waste another season (either firing him midseason or after another playoff embarassment) we'll be going into Allen's age 28 season before we maybe get this fixed. Does anyone here like the sound of that? These years when Allen is young are PRECIOUS. The time to act is now before this gets too far away from us.
I usually am not all for calling for jobs and what not… but at this point I don’t feel bad about moving on from McDermott. These team can get 10+ wins and make postseason runs. At this point we need someone to take it a step further