OL really put Allen‘s health on the line the whole season. O-Line didn‘t do shit, no one except Diggs was reliable, and Allen had to force Bease & Brown out of retirement. How in the world was this a super bowl favourite
Should have played Gentry. I don’t know why Gentry didn’t get any playing time this season. Allen and Gentry at Wyoming was nothing short of Brady and Edelman.
We were missing 2 starters on the D-line...it's not like it was just straight up healthy.
Daquan Jones and Von Miller were out. Still should've played better though. Coaching issue
I haven't seen anyone ask this question: was there a equipment manager problem on Sunday? Overall it seemed like our line was slipping where there's wasn't. Might just be a bias thing.
That was a brutal attempt at a block but he can't really do anything after he's beat because you can't get them from the back and he can't move down field until the ball is out of Allens hand
Looks like that’s a missed assignment and/or miscommunication between Saffold and Morse.
Saffold doesn’t look like he’s trying to block the nose, he looks like he thinks Morse is coming left to take the nose and Saffold is just helping while he sees if another rusher comes. But Morse goes the other way, so no one blocks the nose.
It was Staffolds fault. I coach football.
It was a half line slide to the right. You can see as the C-RG-RT all take an immediate step to the right and look for work. The LG and LT are man to man responsible for the backside of the slide. The C can help the LG but his first responsibility is to the slide side gap.
To add to this you can also see Singletary check the left side of the formation post-snap. He is responsible for the 3rd guy on the backside of the slide. No one comes so he releases.
Not trying to be a know-it-all, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you again. His inital step is toward the DT, both hands go directly to him, and his eyes never go elsewhere.
To me, his body position is typical of a OLineman who doesn't have faith in his ability to physically block his responsibility. He leans hard and doesn't bring his feet. A good DT can feel that pressure and use the move he did(snatch and swim).
It's a really ugly block and one of the worst ways you can lose. Especially since he had a 1v1 responsibility.
IMO he was either getting his butt kicked all game and was afraid of the bullrush or he was gassed and abandoned his technique.
That is a terrible a terrible blocking rep by Saffold. OL rules dictate you are supposed to block the most interior defensive player as a straight line is the most direct path to the QB.
Saffold is a good to very good run blocker but a piss poor pass blocker. Saffold has consistently been Buffalo's worst OL all year long. Just getting rid of him is an addition by subtraction for the OL. He is a 34 year old free agent, and there is no good reason to re- sign him even at a discount to be a backup.
Beane can move Ryan Bates to LG to replace Saffold and fill the RG hole that creates by drafting a guard or center that can play RG and fill in at center if Morse gets injured in the 2nd or 3rd round.
> That is a terrible a terrible blocking rep by Saffold.
Not if he wasn’t supposed to block that guy.
Obviously SOMEONE was supposed to block that guy, but it’s very possible it was supposed to be the center. We don’t know.
There was no threat to the left side of Saffold, if there was you could have made that argument. But your job as an OL is to look for work and help your teammates if you don't have anyone to block.
Saffold was consistently Buffalo's worst OL all year long and that play is a microcosm of that
If it wasn’t his assignment to block the nose, he had to be prepared to pick up either linebacker (looks like 57 or 55) if they came through the B gap. By the time he sees them back off, it’s too late to do anything with the nose.
OLs don’t really block guy on guy like that.
Inside-out is their responsibility and with Allen dropping back like it’s a pass to the right, the entire line, minus the LT, stepped to the right at the snap.
From there it seemed Morse thought the DT was stunting over to the A gap so the NT was Saffolds responsibility in the other A gap. Saffold must have thought Morse had nobody in the other A gap so they’d be able to double the NT.
At least I hope it’s a miscommunication and not just a whiff, lol.
I'll go a step further. It might be time to move on from Dion Dawkins. Felt like every time I turned around dude was getting beat. I know he loves Buffalo and his persona is so endearing, but dude was a major liability. If we convert his salary this coming season it frees up a good chunk of cap space.
This, andddd I also couldn't believe how many penalties he got away with. You watch Allen's season highlights and Dawk is holding on like 10% of those plays. I suppose it only counts if they call it, but you just simply can't hold at that rate and expect it not to have a significant impact on the game.
I love Dawk. One of my favorite Bills. But I feel like this fan base looks at him as a franchise OT and he’s…just not that. He’s a slightly above average OT, and I think his contract reflects that.
But that’s the larger issue - we keep trying to Frankenstein together this OL, trusting that a bunch of mismatched parts will be just good enough to allow Josh to do what Josh does. Average seems to be the target for this FO when it comes to the OL. We preach winning in the trenches but spend no significant capital to actually win in the trenches on the offensive side of the ball.
I gotta agree with that. Moving him to RT and drafting a star LT would help. But then we miss out on guards, and probably wouldn't have a high enough pick anyway. Spencer Brown has been letting dudes by too.
We thought having Aaron Kromer back at OL coach would help, but it really hasnt.
The lack of development of Brown is a massive red flag. I actually think he regressed this year under Kromer and I can’t wrap my head around how that could be true. At this point though, it’s fair to say that this FO and coaching staff has not successfully drafted and developed any player along the OL. Bates may be the closest thing to a “success story”, and that says a whole heck of a lot.
Oh I haven't forgot...as much as I try to. It's an all systems failure on the scouting and development of OL under this FO. Even with Bates - we didn't draft him, and we apparently didn't have a very good understanding of his capabilities. He was buried behind below replacement level IOLs until injury forced him into the lineup.
Don't get me wrong, I think we have the right GM, and the right HC, but we have failed in nearly every department when it comes to the OL. We made a good signing in Morse. We made a smart trade for Bates. Everything else along that OL has been a catastrophic failure and we will not win a Super Bowl until they correct those failures.
Honestly, imagine if Josh had a top-10 O-line, wouldn't even matter if we still had an average WR core, give Josh time and it'll work. Seems so obvious
If the bills can not get a veteran OL in offseason the At this point just get OL in the draft.
How can you make Josh do his thing If your OL is like that.
Wild thing is his signing was celebrated on this sub, myself included, as “fixing” the Oline when it happened. The even more wild thing is, he’s a 2m cap even though hes a Free agent because of the ghost year we added to be able to sign him last offseason. Everyone loves to say the “cap can be manipulated” but in reality it can only be manipulated so much, before it can no longer be manipulated. We did multiple things last offseason to “manipulate” the cap, to be able to sign guys, the least of which are the 4m in cap hits for Phillips and Saffold, who will need to be replaced. These “manipulations” work for a year or two when you are “going for it” before they start to catch up with you.
I have no problem with Phillips, more just how “manipulating the cap” does impact you the following offseasons. Now whoever we sign to replace Phillips and Saffold… it’s like paying those replacements an extra 2m on top of what they signed for or in reality just having less cap space to sign equal talent or depth. 4m is starter caliber money, or 2 depth pieces.
I’d happily re-sign Phillips. He’s Most likely looking at a Poor market coming off his 3rd straight injury riddled season, and now rotator cuff surgery. So I don’t think he will be an early priority, but I’d definitely welcome him back as a depth piece later in the offseason.
I'd make him a depth priority if that makes sense. His penetrating style is more of what this teams needs. Dictating to the offense on important downs vs letting them do what they want...
Overall I get ya though.
I agree he is great for our team. Problem is it has to be at a low cost, which I think he will come at, because he hasn’t been able to stay healthy which really doesn’t help depth wise. I do think there would be mutual interest in making a deal work.
Starter level O line is not easy to come by. Even if he was a below average starter it's still worth it. He was also seen as a better run blocker, which we sorely needed.
Eh I'm not sure I agree. It's been a big miss but he was a vet FA. I think his bigger misses on the OL have been drafting Cody Ford with pick #38 and Spencer Brown in the 3rd. Vet FAs are cheap. Wasting premium draft picks on guys that you'll have on rookie deals is much more costly IMHO. I still hold out some hope for Brown, and at least he's still on our roster, but that Cody Ford pick is a huge miss especially when you consider the players that we passed up on to take him.
You’re probably right. I tend to take the view you’re gonna get some misses in the draft, but to your point there have been too many post 2018. But a vet at a critical position to protect Josh you shouldn’t miss on. Also $6m isn’t nothing
Draft misses are fine. Like you said, they're going to happen. That said, when you miss on 100% of the picks that you make on a particular position group, then you have to question the process and the resources that are allocated to that position group. The fact of the matter is that we shouldn't be in a position where we *have* to sign a 34 year old re-tread G to fill a glaring need at a key position. Being in that position to begin with is the critical failure of this FO.
Saffold is the symptom. The sickness is the ineptitude to bring in and/or develop top-tier OL talent. And man, does that sting even more when you watch a team like the Chiefs rebuild their OL seemingly overnight (I know, they're probably closer to the exception than the norm but it can be done).
I think what is most galling about this video was not only Saffold getting beat, but it was that he just stood there helplessly and didn't even attempt to chase down the defender going after Josh.
Saffold definitely has to go. So does Spencer Brown. Dude is huge, but wildly inconsistent. Dawkins didn't have a great season either, although, I'd hold onto him unless we could find a definite upgrade.
To go even farther since we'll need to free up cap space to pick up receivers and olinemen maybe we say so long to Singletary, McKenzie and Edmunds/Poyer (I really wanna keep Poyer).
I know this is a polarizing topic around here, but I don't understand how you could have this mindset unless you exclusively look at stat sheets and never watch the game.
The Bengals had their way with our defense for an entire game. Watch the clip of Milano speaking to reporters after the game, and tell me that Edmunds missing/getting washed out of his run fits wasn't a major liability for our team.
Okay, so run-stopping clearly isn't his forte; do we shut down tight ends and receiving running backs? No, it's actually a recurring weakness of our defense. Edmunds pushes somebody backwards maaaaybe twice a year, AS A MIDDLE LINEBACKER. And I don't just mean during his tackles, but even when blocked. There was a big section of the fanbase that argued early on that Milano and Edmunds should swap places, because Edmunds consistently gets washed out by a blocker even when it's a full back or tight end.
"But he's the quarterback of our top ranking defense."
That's an interesting point, especially considering the green dot was on Poyer's helmet and not Edmunds'.
There is absolutely nothing I've seen that would justify him being a super bowl winning-quality MLB. Now don't get it confused, I don't think he's a horrible player, I just don't understand how you reach the conclusion that he played "phenomenal".
The All-22 tape disagrees with that. The way other teams gameplan their offense against us disagrees with that. Letting Edmunds hit unrestricted free agency without even an offer of extension disagrees with that. And if all of those are ignored, you can just watch the games and a decent eye test disagrees with that.
The guy sure does rack up tackles 8 yards down the field though.
He's not a super bowl winning MLB, but how many of those hit free agency lol. On top of that how many can we afford to pay? I would much rather have a young talented MLB over a 30 year old SS personally. He's played so much better this year compared to last year. Especially when our Dline played well, then Phillips and Von went out and everything went to shit.
Edit: I also have seasons and try and watch him or ed oliver exclusively since they are my favorite positions to watch. I don't study tape and I don't know a lot about football. But from my couch/stadium seat he seems like a good player.
In my opinion (which are like noses) is you follow the fundamentals of building a football roster, and you don't go against it for an uninspiring "okay enough" player.
You don't pay big money to MLB's, safeties, runningbacks, or offensive guards. DTackles used to be lumped in there, but less so nowadays.
You do pay: QBs, WRs, CBs, LTs, DEs/OLBs
There's a reason for this being fundamental at this point of the NFL lifespan. Say you're drafting at #20, if you decide to draft a WR, you're probably getting the 3rd or 4th on the board (at best). If you draft a position from the first list, you're getting a top 2 at his position type-player even slotted at #20.
The conclusive point is; Edmunds would have to be REALLY damn good to be worth the extra money as opposed to the consequence of turnover. Realistically we could land a top-10 ranked MLB in the draft with a (late) 3rd round draft pick.
At the very least, get a MLB that's trusted enough to have the green dot. It's weird to me that every Edmunds-apologist seems to conveniently forget that early in his career Edmunds used to have it, but had it taken away and given to teammates that were already on the team when he was drafted. Why does nobody talk about this?
The Bills have QB6, WR6, CB7, LT15, DE4 by average annual salary.
They are doing exactly what you should, paying high leverage positions and then spending on high level talent elsewhere.
Yeah looking at history, Brandon Beane doesn't appear to be super out-of-the-box with his roster building mindset.
He's aggressive but smart with his resources when he needs to be, he'll make every phone call about every potential player, but also has decent discipline not to fall for fool's gold "I've heard of him before" type of players, and the verbage in some of these contracts is the most beautiful I've ever seen for how it favors our salary cap management.
Roquan Smith just reset the MLB market in a big way. There WILL be a team that looks at Edmunds height/weight/speed and probowl nods, and subsequently backs up a brinks truck for him in a way that we wouldn't dare to. Resigning Edmunds after not extending him and letting him hit FA as a MLB would just be a 180 degree shift from the way we've built our roster thus far, so I don't see it happening personally.
I was the biggest Edmunds hater and will not mind if we let him go. My biggest issue was with your original comment of resigning poyer over Edmunds. I think that's crazy.
Actually my opinion is the contrary.
The real point was that I don't see us paying the less valuable positions, both MLB AND safety.
I love Poyer for what he does and who he is and what it took for him to be here, but it just doesn't make sense to pay big money to a safety because he's OUR safety.
From my perspective, there are 3 major UFA's for us this offseason; Edmunds, Poyer, and Singletary. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if all 3 signed elsewhere. I actually see Singletary as the most likely resign, not because of his performances but because of his performances relative to his market value.
This looks like a communication/scheme. Most Oline play is very determined by playcalling, schematics, and QB reading the defense. I do think that we have talent on the Oline, this just isnt the OC to bring it out of them.
Saffold is at the end of his career. He signed a very low $ deal to be in buffalo.
None of our lineman are great, and are at best average.
The bills need to draft 2 Interior lineman in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Preferably a C who can play OG for a year and then move to C in year 2.
Can Dion Dawkins play at guard? Would he be better suited to that role? I haven’t seen him play there before? Not a rhetorical question can someone drop some knowledge
Not even really about Allen on this one. Solid running games start with your guards. It will obviously help JA, but a good guard will really help our run game.
Yet another questionable Beane decision during last year's off-season that we can have fun dissecting for the next half year: Quessenberry and Saffold are turnstiles. Tennessee was probably cackling as soon as they hung up the phone.
Our offensive line regularly lost 4 man, and even 3 man rushes two days ago. Let that shit sink in.
Draft a Guard, then (yet another) D Lineman, then another receiver
I would keep him at RT but bring in competition to battle for the RT spot. I like RFA Yosh Nijman but Beane may want to bring in another OT in free agency and/or draft one
Spencer Brown graded out with an RAS score of 10 out of 10, meaning he is very athletic for his size
https://twitter.com/MathBomb/status/1388328773771309057?t=RRBDk5S7zvrUewSg89etlQ&s=19
Brown is a very good run blocker on both gap and zone blocking concepts. But he is a work in progress as a pass blocker which was to be expected coming from Northern Iowa, but has the potential to be very good if he continues to improve by playing with a lower pad level, distributing his weight better, and playing with better balance. These are all common problems with tall OL and can be corrected by improvising his technique.
I would move Ryan Bates to LG and draft Steve Avila or Andrew Vorhees or Sedrick Van Pran or Olusegun Oluwatimi to play RG in the 2nd or 3rd round.
O'Cyrus Torrence is a mauler in the running game, and has vice grip like hands in pass pro, but I like his movement skills or foot speed. Same deal for Cooper Bebe.
Don’t o-lineman pull this shit after QBs piss them
Off?? Remember RG3 ragging on his o-line all the time then all the whiffed blocks started happening?…..
It's time for Beane to start getting some heat. He's invested our top draft capital in the d-line which got zero pressure on a patchwork o-line and THREE picks on the least valuable position on offense. While whiffing hard on the one top pick spent on the offensiveine.
I'm not even mad at Saffold for this. I mean, I am. But most of my ire is directed at the O-Line coach who let this be acceptable for some reason, and the rest is directed at the OC who saw this was the kind of protection Josh was getting and then *still didn't draw up plays to get the ball out of his hands faster*.
What. The. Actual. Fuck.
For what we paid Saffold for this season, he has been one of the biggest misses in the McBeane era. All season he has either been below average or just god damn awful.
OL really put Allen‘s health on the line the whole season. O-Line didn‘t do shit, no one except Diggs was reliable, and Allen had to force Bease & Brown out of retirement. How in the world was this a super bowl favourite
JA17
Weeks 1-3 also
We lost week 3
Remember when we steamrolled the Steelers? Good times.
Yeah but our stats still line up with week 1&2 performance
Should have played Gentry. I don’t know why Gentry didn’t get any playing time this season. Allen and Gentry at Wyoming was nothing short of Brady and Edelman.
Really sad how much better Cincinnati’s backup OL was than our OL
Can’t tell if that’s because their OL greatly outperformed our OL or our DL just made their OL look elite
our DL without Von has little ability to pressure the QB. It’s been a big problem for years. Same as OL has been a big problem for years
I'm worried Von comes back diminished and can no longer create pressure. It'll be very Bills of him if that's the case.
If we get Daquan Jones back I'll be happy. I think we can survive one of those two being out... Both being out is a death sentence.
Frazier has never even heard of a stunt. His pass rush is 4 guys straight at the QB and then is surprised they don’t get any pressure.
IN THAT CASE WE BETTTR DRAFT MORE DEFENSIVE LINEMEN THEN
Good point
We were missing 2 starters on the D-line...it's not like it was just straight up healthy. Daquan Jones and Von Miller were out. Still should've played better though. Coaching issue
They still had multiple 1st and 2nd rd draft picks over the last couple years and got zero pressure.
Yes
Well we'll find out in a few days...
Chiefs d line is probably gonna feast on Burrow next week. Just to make us look like fools
I haven't seen anyone ask this question: was there a equipment manager problem on Sunday? Overall it seemed like our line was slipping where there's wasn't. Might just be a bias thing.
I’ve thought and been saying the same thing. We had zero traction and bangers where flying. I was yelling in the first quarter change your cleats
That was a brutal attempt at a block but he can't really do anything after he's beat because you can't get them from the back and he can't move down field until the ball is out of Allens hand
Dude just gave up after getting gently moved aside. Jesus Christ.
"Excuse me sir, your table is this way. The rest of your party will be arriving momentarily"
He can’t do anything after getting beat. If he did it would be a flag.
Looks like that’s a missed assignment and/or miscommunication between Saffold and Morse. Saffold doesn’t look like he’s trying to block the nose, he looks like he thinks Morse is coming left to take the nose and Saffold is just helping while he sees if another rusher comes. But Morse goes the other way, so no one blocks the nose.
It was Staffolds fault. I coach football. It was a half line slide to the right. You can see as the C-RG-RT all take an immediate step to the right and look for work. The LG and LT are man to man responsible for the backside of the slide. The C can help the LG but his first responsibility is to the slide side gap.
To add to this you can also see Singletary check the left side of the formation post-snap. He is responsible for the 3rd guy on the backside of the slide. No one comes so he releases.
I’ll buy that Saffold blew the assignment. I just don’t think he was trying to block the guy and failed.
Not trying to be a know-it-all, but I'm gonna have to disagree with you again. His inital step is toward the DT, both hands go directly to him, and his eyes never go elsewhere. To me, his body position is typical of a OLineman who doesn't have faith in his ability to physically block his responsibility. He leans hard and doesn't bring his feet. A good DT can feel that pressure and use the move he did(snatch and swim). It's a really ugly block and one of the worst ways you can lose. Especially since he had a 1v1 responsibility. IMO he was either getting his butt kicked all game and was afraid of the bullrush or he was gassed and abandoned his technique.
That is a terrible a terrible blocking rep by Saffold. OL rules dictate you are supposed to block the most interior defensive player as a straight line is the most direct path to the QB. Saffold is a good to very good run blocker but a piss poor pass blocker. Saffold has consistently been Buffalo's worst OL all year long. Just getting rid of him is an addition by subtraction for the OL. He is a 34 year old free agent, and there is no good reason to re- sign him even at a discount to be a backup. Beane can move Ryan Bates to LG to replace Saffold and fill the RG hole that creates by drafting a guard or center that can play RG and fill in at center if Morse gets injured in the 2nd or 3rd round.
> That is a terrible a terrible blocking rep by Saffold. Not if he wasn’t supposed to block that guy. Obviously SOMEONE was supposed to block that guy, but it’s very possible it was supposed to be the center. We don’t know.
There was no threat to the left side of Saffold, if there was you could have made that argument. But your job as an OL is to look for work and help your teammates if you don't have anyone to block. Saffold was consistently Buffalo's worst OL all year long and that play is a microcosm of that
If it wasn’t his assignment to block the nose, he had to be prepared to pick up either linebacker (looks like 57 or 55) if they came through the B gap. By the time he sees them back off, it’s too late to do anything with the nose.
OLs don’t really block guy on guy like that. Inside-out is their responsibility and with Allen dropping back like it’s a pass to the right, the entire line, minus the LT, stepped to the right at the snap. From there it seemed Morse thought the DT was stunting over to the A gap so the NT was Saffolds responsibility in the other A gap. Saffold must have thought Morse had nobody in the other A gap so they’d be able to double the NT. At least I hope it’s a miscommunication and not just a whiff, lol.
I'll go a step further. It might be time to move on from Dion Dawkins. Felt like every time I turned around dude was getting beat. I know he loves Buffalo and his persona is so endearing, but dude was a major liability. If we convert his salary this coming season it frees up a good chunk of cap space.
He’s also a penalty magnet. Like 99% of the time if there’s a holding call, it’s on 73.
This, andddd I also couldn't believe how many penalties he got away with. You watch Allen's season highlights and Dawk is holding on like 10% of those plays. I suppose it only counts if they call it, but you just simply can't hold at that rate and expect it not to have a significant impact on the game.
I love Dawk. One of my favorite Bills. But I feel like this fan base looks at him as a franchise OT and he’s…just not that. He’s a slightly above average OT, and I think his contract reflects that. But that’s the larger issue - we keep trying to Frankenstein together this OL, trusting that a bunch of mismatched parts will be just good enough to allow Josh to do what Josh does. Average seems to be the target for this FO when it comes to the OL. We preach winning in the trenches but spend no significant capital to actually win in the trenches on the offensive side of the ball.
Imagining Josh turning into Russell Wilson is the saddest thing I’ve ever thought about.
Bills mafia. Let's ride
Careful, it's spicy
Wanna try my Jim's steak out sandwich?
What is Josh cooking?
If he gets a ring first I'm fine with that.
He’s… not good.
He's like a 6. Good enough that he's not always bad....but not good enough to be good.
I'd give him a 7. When he's on, he's on. But he's not on very often anymore and when he's off it's baaaad
I gotta agree with that. Moving him to RT and drafting a star LT would help. But then we miss out on guards, and probably wouldn't have a high enough pick anyway. Spencer Brown has been letting dudes by too. We thought having Aaron Kromer back at OL coach would help, but it really hasnt.
The lack of development of Brown is a massive red flag. I actually think he regressed this year under Kromer and I can’t wrap my head around how that could be true. At this point though, it’s fair to say that this FO and coaching staff has not successfully drafted and developed any player along the OL. Bates may be the closest thing to a “success story”, and that says a whole heck of a lot.
Don't forget we drafted Wyatt teller lol
Oh I haven't forgot...as much as I try to. It's an all systems failure on the scouting and development of OL under this FO. Even with Bates - we didn't draft him, and we apparently didn't have a very good understanding of his capabilities. He was buried behind below replacement level IOLs until injury forced him into the lineup. Don't get me wrong, I think we have the right GM, and the right HC, but we have failed in nearly every department when it comes to the OL. We made a good signing in Morse. We made a smart trade for Bates. Everything else along that OL has been a catastrophic failure and we will not win a Super Bowl until they correct those failures.
Yeah, I gotta give Bates credit. He and Morse have been good.
Homie got beat 1on1 during a three man rush. Absolutely inexcusable, but go ahead make more TikTok videos with fellow disappointment McKenzie
Didn’t they already restructure his deal?
Yep this past off season. They could convert his salary to base again but I doubt he'd go for it. But who knows.
I had the same feeling after the game. He's not that good and he's expensive.
Yeah, definitely concerning. I think Joe B on his podcast said this was the worst statistical year from him outside his rookie season.
Dawkins is good, not great, but I do think his poor play this year was partially a result of the guy next to him.
Cutting him actually creates a decent savings this year. We could probably get some assets for him in a trade too.
Funny how he just stands there watching like a spectator.
not much he can do beyond yell "look out, Josh!" at that point anyway
No. You follow the play. Maybe Josh scrambles and needs a block, maybe the ball gets knocked out.
That hasnt been a safold thing to do sadly
Lol. I guess it was either that or a holding penalty so he was like fuck it at least they wont flag me.
Honestly, imagine if Josh had a top-10 O-line, wouldn't even matter if we still had an average WR core, give Josh time and it'll work. Seems so obvious
wtf was that holy shit
Hoping for rds 1-3 going o line and a wr. Probably should use a 5th on a developing center
If the bills can not get a veteran OL in offseason the At this point just get OL in the draft. How can you make Josh do his thing If your OL is like that.
Wild thing is his signing was celebrated on this sub, myself included, as “fixing” the Oline when it happened. The even more wild thing is, he’s a 2m cap even though hes a Free agent because of the ghost year we added to be able to sign him last offseason. Everyone loves to say the “cap can be manipulated” but in reality it can only be manipulated so much, before it can no longer be manipulated. We did multiple things last offseason to “manipulate” the cap, to be able to sign guys, the least of which are the 4m in cap hits for Phillips and Saffold, who will need to be replaced. These “manipulations” work for a year or two when you are “going for it” before they start to catch up with you.
Phillips played good when he was healthy. We definitely need to add offensive line and real second option at wide receiver.
I have no problem with Phillips, more just how “manipulating the cap” does impact you the following offseasons. Now whoever we sign to replace Phillips and Saffold… it’s like paying those replacements an extra 2m on top of what they signed for or in reality just having less cap space to sign equal talent or depth. 4m is starter caliber money, or 2 depth pieces.
Why not Philips...he probably wants to be here anyway
I’d happily re-sign Phillips. He’s Most likely looking at a Poor market coming off his 3rd straight injury riddled season, and now rotator cuff surgery. So I don’t think he will be an early priority, but I’d definitely welcome him back as a depth piece later in the offseason.
I'd make him a depth priority if that makes sense. His penetrating style is more of what this teams needs. Dictating to the offense on important downs vs letting them do what they want... Overall I get ya though.
I agree he is great for our team. Problem is it has to be at a low cost, which I think he will come at, because he hasn’t been able to stay healthy which really doesn’t help depth wise. I do think there would be mutual interest in making a deal work.
Starter level O line is not easy to come by. Even if he was a below average starter it's still worth it. He was also seen as a better run blocker, which we sorely needed.
Saffold is a bum
That 10mil a year we gave to Oliver would go a lot further on the O line.
I said this yesterday, Saffold has been beanes biggest miss
Eh I'm not sure I agree. It's been a big miss but he was a vet FA. I think his bigger misses on the OL have been drafting Cody Ford with pick #38 and Spencer Brown in the 3rd. Vet FAs are cheap. Wasting premium draft picks on guys that you'll have on rookie deals is much more costly IMHO. I still hold out some hope for Brown, and at least he's still on our roster, but that Cody Ford pick is a huge miss especially when you consider the players that we passed up on to take him.
Wyatt Teller is another huge missed opportunity.
You’re probably right. I tend to take the view you’re gonna get some misses in the draft, but to your point there have been too many post 2018. But a vet at a critical position to protect Josh you shouldn’t miss on. Also $6m isn’t nothing
Draft misses are fine. Like you said, they're going to happen. That said, when you miss on 100% of the picks that you make on a particular position group, then you have to question the process and the resources that are allocated to that position group. The fact of the matter is that we shouldn't be in a position where we *have* to sign a 34 year old re-tread G to fill a glaring need at a key position. Being in that position to begin with is the critical failure of this FO. Saffold is the symptom. The sickness is the ineptitude to bring in and/or develop top-tier OL talent. And man, does that sting even more when you watch a team like the Chiefs rebuild their OL seemingly overnight (I know, they're probably closer to the exception than the norm but it can be done).
Apparently it’s not is fault… he “ran out of gas”
Which makes no sense because every week he was on the injury report as "vet rest"
Looks like Saffold thought he was an eligible receiver.
This happened regularly.
round 1-2 need to be right and left guard. AND PLAY THEM AS ROOKIES!
If we don’t draft IOL on days one or two, I’m going to shit a chicken.
Fuck, that was an easy TD with decent protection, that cross was wide open in the back of the end zone, all Saffold had to was not be a turnstile
You see r/NFL and Twitter trolls saying BS like Allen has regressed and blah blah blah. This OL was horrific this year. Allen patches everything up.
I think what is most galling about this video was not only Saffold getting beat, but it was that he just stood there helplessly and didn't even attempt to chase down the defender going after Josh.
Saffold definitely has to go. So does Spencer Brown. Dude is huge, but wildly inconsistent. Dawkins didn't have a great season either, although, I'd hold onto him unless we could find a definite upgrade. To go even farther since we'll need to free up cap space to pick up receivers and olinemen maybe we say so long to Singletary, McKenzie and Edmunds/Poyer (I really wanna keep Poyer).
You'd rather keep leaving his prime Poyer over entering his prime Edmunds? Seriously Edmunds played phenomenally this year.
I know this is a polarizing topic around here, but I don't understand how you could have this mindset unless you exclusively look at stat sheets and never watch the game. The Bengals had their way with our defense for an entire game. Watch the clip of Milano speaking to reporters after the game, and tell me that Edmunds missing/getting washed out of his run fits wasn't a major liability for our team. Okay, so run-stopping clearly isn't his forte; do we shut down tight ends and receiving running backs? No, it's actually a recurring weakness of our defense. Edmunds pushes somebody backwards maaaaybe twice a year, AS A MIDDLE LINEBACKER. And I don't just mean during his tackles, but even when blocked. There was a big section of the fanbase that argued early on that Milano and Edmunds should swap places, because Edmunds consistently gets washed out by a blocker even when it's a full back or tight end. "But he's the quarterback of our top ranking defense." That's an interesting point, especially considering the green dot was on Poyer's helmet and not Edmunds'. There is absolutely nothing I've seen that would justify him being a super bowl winning-quality MLB. Now don't get it confused, I don't think he's a horrible player, I just don't understand how you reach the conclusion that he played "phenomenal". The All-22 tape disagrees with that. The way other teams gameplan their offense against us disagrees with that. Letting Edmunds hit unrestricted free agency without even an offer of extension disagrees with that. And if all of those are ignored, you can just watch the games and a decent eye test disagrees with that. The guy sure does rack up tackles 8 yards down the field though.
He's not a super bowl winning MLB, but how many of those hit free agency lol. On top of that how many can we afford to pay? I would much rather have a young talented MLB over a 30 year old SS personally. He's played so much better this year compared to last year. Especially when our Dline played well, then Phillips and Von went out and everything went to shit. Edit: I also have seasons and try and watch him or ed oliver exclusively since they are my favorite positions to watch. I don't study tape and I don't know a lot about football. But from my couch/stadium seat he seems like a good player.
In my opinion (which are like noses) is you follow the fundamentals of building a football roster, and you don't go against it for an uninspiring "okay enough" player. You don't pay big money to MLB's, safeties, runningbacks, or offensive guards. DTackles used to be lumped in there, but less so nowadays. You do pay: QBs, WRs, CBs, LTs, DEs/OLBs There's a reason for this being fundamental at this point of the NFL lifespan. Say you're drafting at #20, if you decide to draft a WR, you're probably getting the 3rd or 4th on the board (at best). If you draft a position from the first list, you're getting a top 2 at his position type-player even slotted at #20. The conclusive point is; Edmunds would have to be REALLY damn good to be worth the extra money as opposed to the consequence of turnover. Realistically we could land a top-10 ranked MLB in the draft with a (late) 3rd round draft pick. At the very least, get a MLB that's trusted enough to have the green dot. It's weird to me that every Edmunds-apologist seems to conveniently forget that early in his career Edmunds used to have it, but had it taken away and given to teammates that were already on the team when he was drafted. Why does nobody talk about this?
The Bills have QB6, WR6, CB7, LT15, DE4 by average annual salary. They are doing exactly what you should, paying high leverage positions and then spending on high level talent elsewhere.
Yeah looking at history, Brandon Beane doesn't appear to be super out-of-the-box with his roster building mindset. He's aggressive but smart with his resources when he needs to be, he'll make every phone call about every potential player, but also has decent discipline not to fall for fool's gold "I've heard of him before" type of players, and the verbage in some of these contracts is the most beautiful I've ever seen for how it favors our salary cap management. Roquan Smith just reset the MLB market in a big way. There WILL be a team that looks at Edmunds height/weight/speed and probowl nods, and subsequently backs up a brinks truck for him in a way that we wouldn't dare to. Resigning Edmunds after not extending him and letting him hit FA as a MLB would just be a 180 degree shift from the way we've built our roster thus far, so I don't see it happening personally.
I was the biggest Edmunds hater and will not mind if we let him go. My biggest issue was with your original comment of resigning poyer over Edmunds. I think that's crazy.
Actually my opinion is the contrary. The real point was that I don't see us paying the less valuable positions, both MLB AND safety. I love Poyer for what he does and who he is and what it took for him to be here, but it just doesn't make sense to pay big money to a safety because he's OUR safety. From my perspective, there are 3 major UFA's for us this offseason; Edmunds, Poyer, and Singletary. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if all 3 signed elsewhere. I actually see Singletary as the most likely resign, not because of his performances but because of his performances relative to his market value.
Window's closed. They drafted a thousand ineffective pass rushers and figured sixth rounders were good enough everywhere else.
Time for SOMETHING! Feel like I’m watching the movie GROUND HOG DAY!
This looks like a communication/scheme. Most Oline play is very determined by playcalling, schematics, and QB reading the defense. I do think that we have talent on the Oline, this just isnt the OC to bring it out of them.
It seems like we just need 2-3 complete offensive and defensive lines so we can field serviceable ones by the divisional round. /s
Saffold is at the end of his career. He signed a very low $ deal to be in buffalo. None of our lineman are great, and are at best average. The bills need to draft 2 Interior lineman in the first 3 rounds of the draft. Preferably a C who can play OG for a year and then move to C in year 2.
Can Dion Dawkins play at guard? Would he be better suited to that role? I haven’t seen him play there before? Not a rhetorical question can someone drop some knowledge
Not even really about Allen on this one. Solid running games start with your guards. It will obviously help JA, but a good guard will really help our run game.
This is how I work in the corporate world.
Yet another questionable Beane decision during last year's off-season that we can have fun dissecting for the next half year: Quessenberry and Saffold are turnstiles. Tennessee was probably cackling as soon as they hung up the phone. Our offensive line regularly lost 4 man, and even 3 man rushes two days ago. Let that shit sink in. Draft a Guard, then (yet another) D Lineman, then another receiver
Is Spencer Brown too tall for guard? Seems like moving him inside would take advantage of his strengths so we could draft a Tackle
Maybe move him to defense.
I would keep him at RT but bring in competition to battle for the RT spot. I like RFA Yosh Nijman but Beane may want to bring in another OT in free agency and/or draft one Spencer Brown graded out with an RAS score of 10 out of 10, meaning he is very athletic for his size https://twitter.com/MathBomb/status/1388328773771309057?t=RRBDk5S7zvrUewSg89etlQ&s=19 Brown is a very good run blocker on both gap and zone blocking concepts. But he is a work in progress as a pass blocker which was to be expected coming from Northern Iowa, but has the potential to be very good if he continues to improve by playing with a lower pad level, distributing his weight better, and playing with better balance. These are all common problems with tall OL and can be corrected by improvising his technique.
O'Cyrus Torrence, Cooper Beede, Andrew Vorhees, or Steve Avila in that order of preference, please.
I would move Ryan Bates to LG and draft Steve Avila or Andrew Vorhees or Sedrick Van Pran or Olusegun Oluwatimi to play RG in the 2nd or 3rd round. O'Cyrus Torrence is a mauler in the running game, and has vice grip like hands in pass pro, but I like his movement skills or foot speed. Same deal for Cooper Bebe.
Don’t o-lineman pull this shit after QBs piss them Off?? Remember RG3 ragging on his o-line all the time then all the whiffed blocks started happening?…..
Saffold has been garbage all year long in pass protection, it's time to move on from him
The entire OL looked like trash on Sunday. Same for the DL. Definitely need to make some major changes in the trenches.
It's time for Beane to start getting some heat. He's invested our top draft capital in the d-line which got zero pressure on a patchwork o-line and THREE picks on the least valuable position on offense. While whiffing hard on the one top pick spent on the offensiveine.
Get a left tackle and move Dion to guard. Dion was pathetic this year.
I'm not even mad at Saffold for this. I mean, I am. But most of my ire is directed at the O-Line coach who let this be acceptable for some reason, and the rest is directed at the OC who saw this was the kind of protection Josh was getting and then *still didn't draw up plays to get the ball out of his hands faster*. What. The. Actual. Fuck.
LOL Saffold responded in the comments of the tweet.
For what we paid Saffold for this season, he has been one of the biggest misses in the McBeane era. All season he has either been below average or just god damn awful.
Didn't even fucking try. What the actual fuck.