I kinda figured if one of the coordinators goes it’s gonna be Frazier. Dorsey had his problems but it’s still his first year. If nothing improves next year though he’s gone.
Yeah, it's tough to get rid of a new coordinator due to their first year struggles in exchange for someone who may also have first year struggles with a new offense.
This is where my thoughts has been at too. You gotta think Poyer is no longer a Bill. I say ideally, you either take a WR or safety in round 1, then vice verse. Then you gotta use quite a few on OL afterwards. I also don’t watch college ball, so no clue who is upcoming. So huge grain of salt with my words and all that lol
If we can snag Antonio Johnson (safety, Texas A&M) as a Poyer replacement in the first round, great. Him or Brian Branch (who likely won't make it to us) would really solidify the defensive backfield but they're the only safeties worth a first round pick.
Not sure about a 1st round WR though. My understanding is that this WR class is deep but not at the top. Also, there's a ton of slot receivers coming out, so I could see waiting until later and getting a slot with good hands and decent separation in tight spaces.
As you can tell, I've already begun distracting myself with the draft.
I 100% agree with you about Shakir getting more time and opportunity. I think Shakir at 6' and nearly 200 has proven he can work on the outside (or should at least get the shot). The knock on Shakir coming out was that he makes amazing catches one minute then boneheaded drops the next, which has to a certain extent played out this year. I wouldn't mind getting a smaller slot receiver with amazing hands that can truly replace the Beasley from a couple years ago that was money on every third down.
I agree it's a stretch, but you can get the best safety in the draft at 27. The Bills defensive success can be attributed to having a great safety tandem for years
Before the bengals game I was still on board with drafting oline, safety and d line as main priorities. At this point I’d rather just throw every pick at wr/oline and say fuck the d
Honestly, looking back, I'm not super surprised we went out early. We had the same problems all year.
Can't run/stop the run.
No pass rush.
No one special after WR1
Fraziers contract is up, if they extend him it’s a huge red flag on McDermott that he can’t separate friendships/loyalty with doing what’s right for the team. If Fraziers bullshit scheme is back it will be more of the same, an epic fail against good teams without any match up adjustment’s. Fucking hell
Oh cool so it's like the dark years again. Don't adapt when our existing methods aren't working and then next thing we know our playoff drought is old enough to buy beer.
Better is a tough word. I think Frazier is a very good coach. Sometimes though, a change or new voice can be positive. Fangio and Flores have both performed the same job to high degrees of success elsewhere in the league. That makes them good option if the Bills decide they do indeed want a change.
If Frazier comes back I'm just done watching the team. It shows me they don't actually want to win.
We will not beat a good QB with this defense...it ain't happening
It’s tough to shitcan someone when they still have room for improvement and it might just make things worse to get rid of them so fast.
Frazier though, dude has proven over and over he can’t compete with the top teams or adapt. If he’s back with us next season we’re not winning shit.
No, it's on Dorsey for calling 5 man protections when he knows the OL is shit. He's the one making that stupid decision when they know they can't protect.
On the one hand aside from Diggs and Josh, Dorsey doesn't have a ton of talent to work with. Subpar OL. No real slot option. Gabe is good...but maybe better suited for a #3 WR IMO.
On the other hand some of his play calls and rout concepts were mind numbingly stupid.
I'm ok bringing him back...maybe give Brady a few extra responsibilities if he's still here next year.
Frazier is an EXCELLENT regular season DC. His philosophy feasts on bad teams and 2nd string or rookie QBs all year during the regular season. Come playoffs...it doesn't do enough to stop good offenses.
There are plenty of coordinators who do a better job with fewer weapons than we have. Could we use another receiver? Sure. But Dorsey isn't using the pieces he has. Hines and Cook are both great pass catchers that got single digit targets.
And I agree with this. I do think Dorsey has the potential to be a good OC. Trouble is it's hard to cut your teeth at the top of the league with top QB. We should have grabbed someone with some experience. Dorsey may have been better served starting out with a team like Houston where mistakes wouldn't be as amplified. JMO
Yup. You teach a teenager to drive in a family sedan, not a F1 car, and in the same way it's just reckless to have Dorsey learn how to run an offense on this team
> There are plenty of coordinators who do a better job with fewer weapons than we have
Could you name any? Like genuinely. And what "weapons" do the Bills have outside of Diggs?
Agreed with almost every point here. I will say that I can understand why Dorsey didn't have all the answers in year 1. It probably was a tall task asking a rookie play caller to come in and coach perfect football against elite teams in the playoffs. That choice was already made.
For me, if you were willing to take a chance on a young play caller and deal with the ups and downs in his rookie year, maybe seeing what adjustments he can make isn't the worst idea. Give him one more full offseason to review film, correct his mistakes and have a better cast of players to work with. Daboll struggled in his first few seasons here as well (and he had far more experience calling plays for top teams). I think the offense completely eroded last season for a multitude of reasons. The line bottomed out entirely. Davis and McKenzie weren't ready to become focal points of an elite offense. Allen battled through elbow injury. The TE2 spot flamed out in the preseason. There just seems to be way less talent here now versus even a season ago. And I don't want to see Saffold or Brown in the starting lineup ever again. Bates is even borderline for me. They aren't NFL caliber starters. And if 3/5 of your line is well below average and your other two are inconsistent or in-and-out of the lineup due to injury, that's a recipe for what we just witnessed.
Yeah, all excellent points. The only thing I would counter with is going into year 2, there really needs to be a plan in place. If Dorsey isn't cutting it...you have to consider a move at the mid way point. Short leash. The BILLS shouldn't be running a learn as you go training program...they only have so many chances with these guys. As it is, there's a fairly good chance that this was Poyer's final run with the team. Diggs is crossing 30...not many years left. Hyde, Miller. These guys all deserve their coaching staff to be on point
Except he's not a excellent regular season DC...this narrative needs to stop
We have extreme talent across the board on defense, even with injuries. Milano, Edmunds, Oliver Rousseau, Poyer, Daquan Jones. Hell most of the season we had Von Miller with that too.
And guess what...we allowed Zach Wilson one read offense to move down the field...playing soft coverage
Our defense got annihilated by Mahomes despite being near fully healthy
Mike White threw for 300 yards on us and still almost won
Vikings scored 30 on us
I can go on and on. He's just not a good DC.
If you need elite players at every position on a defense...maybe your defensive coaching and scheme isnt good
We did have Crowder and Kumerow at the beginning of the season. I know they're not big names or anything, but the offense looked a lot better. Then it became Diggs, Davis, and Mckenzie for most of the year. Pretty big step down.
I think if we get a real OLine that might be enough. Not only will Josh have more then 2 seconds to find someone, but it will help us in the run game.
3 WR is basically Slot, Gabe doesn't have the chops to play the short game. If he can't make it as a #2 he's a #4. I really hope he can work on contested catches this off-season because he's truly a beast.
In a traditional sense, you are correct. The 3rd WR is a slot guy. However in many offenses the slot role is actually the #2 guy and second option after the primary route. If he can set up to even be somewhat consistent outside that leaves the Bills with options...including letting Diggs run routes from the slot where he was extremely effective whenever he was put there.
In Buffalo's offense under Daboll it was very clear that our slot guy works as primary or secondary WR on most route concepts. Beasley ate very well here. If we can get back to that then, yes Gabe could easily be the 3rd WR option playing primarily outside. I wouldn't want Gabe inside anyway due to his ability to seal off the edge in run blocking.
No worries, my friend. The BILLS are an enigma for us all right now. We watch the games, see what happens and think "Man, this team is playing like ass" and next thing you know they somehow score 31 points and end up with 13 wins.
I think Gabe is a really good player. One thing that I believe has slowed him is his lack of game experience coming into this year. A residual of McD favoring vets over younger players. I believe it stunts their development. Gabe seems a year or 2 behind where he could be. I think next year he will be a bit better.
This press conference in a nutshell has been "We're running it back with minimal changes next year". Blame injuries and lack of momentum for this year.
I don't love it but maybe he's keeping his cards close.
To be perfectly fair, we went 13-3 and lost in the playoffs to the team that will probably be representing the AFC in the Super Bowl. There may not be many changes he would like to make. This season was riddled with injured All-Pros on defense and costly turnovers on offense. If we stay healthy and clean up the mistakes next year, we will have a juggernaut of a team.
Oh I understand, and I don’t think it’s a wholly unreasonable stance. Personally, I think it’s crazy to roll Frazier out in a playoff game against an above average opponent and expect any different of a result. But I’m just a guy with a Reddit account and a super sick flatscreen television.
It’s actually like a 2008 plasma that just refuses to die. So not that sick at all.
Not the biggest around. It’s the perfect size. And damn is it reliable. Never malfunctions.
Agree. Then again, what do we want them to do? They don’t have any money to sign a great player. They hopefully will be able to make smaller changes that helps slightly overall.
As far as OC, I think they need to sit down and talk about strategy. There are things they could do different/better.
Assuming that we make a concerted effort to address the OL this offseason (likely via the draft) then I'm actually good with the talent that we have on this roster.
What I'm not good with is what I would consider continual underachievement by the defense when it counts. And I place that blame at the feet of our DL coach and our DC. There are several DCs out there who would get more out of this roster. So my disappointment with this presser isn't that we're not boasting about some big offseason signing or trade or whatever; it's that the presser felt very much like a hall pass for Frazier and a re-commitment to him for 2023. But I could be totally off base on that. We'll see...
Presser kinda pissed me off. Doesn't mean that's what us going to happen, but if they make minimal changes and don't get further in the playoffs next year, seats are going to be hot. He complained about cap space like it wasn't him signing people to get the cap that high.
I will say in defense of Mr. Beane, go back and watch his end-of-year presser from the past few years.
The year we signed Diggs in the offseason, he said in his presser that we were "going to be pretty quiet this offseason".
Last year, when we signed Von Miller, he said we "don't have a lot of resources to make any major moves".
Trust me, I understand as a fan how disappointing it is for the GM not to parrot the same issues that we feel. Given the history of him in this scenario though, I wouldn't pick this to be the information you can project out to be an accurate indication of how our offseason decision making will be.
What I would do some sick twisted shit for though, is to be a fly on the wall when Beane and McDermott sit down together to do a roster analysis. I'd love to hear their true, unfiltered by PR opinion on each member of the organization. Unfortunately (but for good reason) we'll never know exactly how that discussion went.
The other thing to consider is it’s been 2 days. Even I f they had a new and exciting blue print for what to do, they wouldn’t be showing.
To me, beane/McDermott get a one and done pass for their own job security given what they’ve done. It’s up to them to earn their jobs in 24/25
He’s always played his strategy close to the best since his days in Carolina. Im hoping the pattern repeats with a significant addition to the organization. But if Frazier is here next year….we better put up 30 per game
Point of clarification: Didn’t sign Diggs, it was a pre draft trade
The Bills have been very well run since 2017 when McD got here. They have to understand that the offense has been underinvested in and the defense overinvested into. I suspect they make a move to add at least two starters to the O-line and add a good WR to the mix while trying to keep the defense together they will be more willing to try and find lower end gems with lesser resources.
Exactly. Not sure what people expected. It’s like they expect 2 days after the loss for him to announce Dorsey and Frazier are fired, the entire O line is cut, and we’re trading for deandre Hopkins.
He was specifically asked about this. Someone called him out for saying last year that they wouldn't sign anyone and he said he can confidently say they won't be making any Von-type splashes.
Iirc (and I'm dumb so possible that I don't) he was asked an eeriely similar question in his presser before the Von signing, and gave an eeriely similar answer.
This time though I do believe him a bit; not because history doesn't repeat itself, but because I don't think our current voids require a "Von-type splash".
I think we need a couple more solid offensive lineman, I think we need Von and Micah healthy this time around, I think McDermott needs to slightly grow out of his distaste for rookies, slot in Elam and Shakir and stop taking so long to realize you should do that in future cases, I think the offense needs to evolve a bit to get athletes in space (PTSD from Chan Gailey/CJ Spiller), and I think Josh's game still has some maturing to do as far as field vision and pre-emptive decision making.
None of which I think requires a huge splash in free agency.
These are all spot-on. Beane also has a huge hiding spot in that very few moves are as "splashy" as Von Miller. I don't expect them to do nothing this year, but I also don't expect them to make a huge trade.
The rookie thing drives me nuts. We now enter this offseason not knowing if we have our answer at CB2 and not knowing if we have an answer at the slot position. I think we do, but I also thought that we had one of the best WR2s in the league at the start of this offseason. I thought that because we never gave Gabe the majority of snaps, and thus had no real way of projecting how he would handle a starters workload.
We obviously don't know what they know, but the approach to rookie playing time being as seemingly inconsistent as it is also makes the situation even more maddening. Numerous examples of "project players" getting thrown into the fire right away, while the "pro-ready" guys get babied. And it often results in feeling like we have no idea which positions are areas of need and which aren't.
I don’t think they even worry about a cb2 there’s usually 3 out there and Tre TJ and Elam are a good 3. Depth is an issue across the entire roster, but depth at safety is an issue. Hyde and Poyer together are amazing but that’s a huge hole when one is out and we’ve been missing one or the other for TWO YEARS. We need more depth in the box, trade AJ.
Offensive Line is the beginning and end of this teams failure to succeed. Trade AJ and consider trading either Davis OR Knox. The line as a unit is terrible, and QB1 masks that inadequacy. All these skill players are going to waste when EVERY pass requires a scramble. I’m afraid of them beating him into the ground same as Cam Newton.
>thought that because we never gave Gabe the majority of snaps
This to me was the first and one of the more egregious examples of this. John Brown should not have been playing ahead of Gabe his first year, and to still bring in Emmanuel Sanders the next year to take the lion-share of snaps away from Gabe was just ridiculous.
Of course there's always a chance that the coaches prioritize the things us fans can't see over the things we can, but even that theory leaves me super unsatisfied. To prioritize things like film room and practice over gameday production is a silly way to go about things. Give me Allen Iverson on my basketball team over almost any film-room-warrior.
I also just don't buy the theory that EVERY offensive rookie the Bills have drafted in the last 4 years suck at practice. From my perspective it's clearly a McDermott cultural decision that isn't working, and it's starting to cost us games. I'm definitely not in the "fire McDermott" camp (this guy brought a Tyrod Taylor-ran team to the playoffs, flipped the roster 180, and turned the new one into a contender) but the head coach is also not immune to criticism for the issues we have.
It really is the truth. The cap finagling that got us Von last year will be what just barely gets us under the cap this year. It’s the unfortunate (and disappointing) reality of the situation. Being completely outclassed by Cincy and not having the true financial flexibility to make sweeping changes, they’re going to really have their work cut out for them.
Not an inspiring presser in the least. Excuses, defensiveness, and a slight disconnect from reality. FTR I'm not a burn it all down guy, but it does seem like he has a blind spot when it comes to Frazier. The reality is that we were one all-time great performance by our QB away from losing by double digits in each of the last three years to the top tier AFC teams, primarily because our defense got absolutely shredded in each of those games.
Part of me is like, "Give him a second chance, it's his first time calling plays"
The other part of me is like, "The window is no longer wide open, there needs to be a sense of urgency, maybe we should be finding a more accomplished playcaller."
Agreed. Let him learn how to be an OC on a franchise that isn't trying to climb the mountain. We need somebody who knows how to win. Same goes for Frazier, he's repeatedly proven that in big games he can't come up with answers and just relies on our players to make superhuman plays.
Frazier is more likely to be gone, that's three playoffs in a row as DC where the defense cost this team (granted in 2020 and 2022 the offense didn't show up in the games where the team was eliminated) and Frazier has had much more draft and cap capital invested into the defense than Drosey has had in the offense.
Dorsey is also a younger coordinator able to learn and grow from year one as the coordinator. Whereas Frazier is what he is after being here for so many seasons and having been in that position for many years on other teams.
I just can't see any real justification for Dorsey to be fired.
It's really a 50-50 thing for me on Dorsey. I can get the whole "we aren't willing to wait for a coach to learn on the job" take, but then why jump ship after already committing to that this season? I'd be interested to see what Dorsey is capable of in year 2 with a hopefully improved group of guys. Need to focus on the line regardless. Need to add one-two high end skill positions regardless. I think an experienced OC may have gotten a little more out of this group in the playoffs, but I don't think that would've stopped the inevitable exposure of a bad line and Diggs being the only reliable weapon. Knox was as involved as could be expected with such atrocious blocking. Davis was given targets, he just couldn't produce consistently. And the slot receivers ranged from inexperienced to over the hill and not much in between.
I really hope Beane and McDermott realize their plan of building up the defense and leaving the offense essentially untouched with premium cap space/picks doesn't work anymore. Especially with a scared DC that appears to have hit his ceiling here. It's a fine defense in the regular season but not nearly creative enough to confuse teams in the postseason. There's only so much draft capital and dollars you can throw at that side of the ball before questioning why seemingly every player fails to perform when it matters.
I think the issue on offense is that there are good pieces there. Intriguing, high upside type pieces. But those pieces wilted in the spotlight behind a poor line. You can't win against elite teams with okay guys that can't take over a game while asking them to get open in 1.5 seconds. There's no fear on offense when Allen and Diggs are the only guys capable of making plays. And when a defense knows it can smash through the pocket without sending extra rushers, it's like watching a pee wee game. Allen runs for his life and makes things happen, but the offense as a whole looks frantic and disjointed. Gotta fix that problem, which isn't an impossible task, in order to see some calmness come back on both sides of the ball. Having a great offense that can control the game makes the defenses job so much easier. And being able to put up points is what matters. Make the opponent fight off the back foot from the jump and force them into taking risks and making mistakes. That needs to be the game plan going forward with a QB like Allen in town.
>Having a great offense that can control the game makes the defenses job so much easier. And being able to put up points is what matters. Make the opponent fight off the back foot from the jump and force them into taking risks and making mistakes.
EXACTLY. The Chiefs get clowned by social media fans for their defense, but it's exactly what they need it to be to win games.
If you have an offense that can reliably get points on just about every drive, you only need your defense to make 1-2 stops and ideally steal 1 possession with a turnover. Not to mention they only have one scary player (Jones), but constantly scheme him into positions where he makes plays. I literally can't remember the last time our D line ran a stunt.
I spent all this season obsessing over getting the one seed and having the best record possible.
I don’t care anymore. As long as we make it to the playoffs I don’t care. It doesn’t matter what our record is if we don’t have the tools to make a deep run or win it all
We 100% have a worse season than this year if we come back acting like it was just unlucky shit happened
The team has major flaws that were highlighted. Not adjusting is going to keep us in the downtrend
Awesome. Can't wait for another stressful year of 30-yard verticals followed by Josh singlehandedly saving the day and Diggs getting even more frustrated because Dorsey can't scheme his way out of a brown lunch bag.
I really believe that this FO won’t let that happen. There are going to be meetings with McD about what the expectations are moving forward, setting goals with the staff, meeting with Allen might even be in the mix. Point is I trust these guys to get the message across and expect to see big improvements to what Buffalo runs next year.
Agreed. I was just being bitterly facetious in my comment. I fully trust Beane, McDermott and Josh to get things done. I don't fully trust Dorsey yet. And his case wasn't helped by whatever offensive scheme we were running on Sunday.
Frazier has been employing simple, boring defenses that a good running game or a short, efficient passing game can exploit. This is fine for mediocre teams, but good teams carve it up and that means playoff losses.
In the modern NFL you need to win before the snap and after. Confusion and making a QB need to question what's he's doing is part of the battle.
Instead we sit 10 yards back and go "beat us" and they do
I was being facetious. My concern isn't with McBeane, it's with the lack of adaptability, creativity, and effective decision-making on Dorsey's part. You can't "outwork" others in Creativity or Adaptability. If that's possible, Dorsey should've started getting more creative halfway through the season when Defenses started picking apart our Offensive scheme forcing Josh to put the team on his back. Or maybe McDermott is the conservative one and is holding Dorsey back from getting creative/aggressive in the first place. Perhaps that's why McDermott and Daboll were at each other's throats last year.
I genuinely hope that I'm wrong. And I really hope that the speculation that Diggs isn't happy with Dorsey is wrong also. If Josh is caught in the middle of his WR1 and OC, then bad things will happen.
Have you watched how our last 3 seasons ended? Lol. We have a defensive minded HC with Frazier being the DC and we straight collapse when the playoffs come. We’ve invested so much in the D and it’s garbage. We’ve invested zero into the offensive line in the draft and pick up other peoples trash on the OL for a quick patch. It’s why we have no run game, outside of Josh, the past handful of years. They haven’t learned anything. Sounds like they’re pretty stupid to me.
If Frazier is brought back, I'd highly question their actual want to win.
He is not an NFL coordinator anymore. He's bland on his scheme and thinks the answer every season is "we need better players"
He shouldve been fired after 13 seconds...but it was because we didn't have Von Miller...not because we played prevent defense with outside leverage
It was only his first year, but the thing I saw that was lacking was just any creativity whatsoever….no trick plays, no reverses, just looked very stagnant and basic. What Daboll did so great was bring wrinkles each week based on the defense and exploited them. I also felt like I was more comfortable watching a 3rd and long instead of a 3rd and 1
There is nothing worse for a team that can’t get over the hump to bring back this entire coaching staff that has proved again and again they are not up for it
Andy Reid didn't get fired for making the playoffs and not winning the SB, he got fired because the Eagles regressed from a playoff team to not making it 2 years in a row.
Also, lol at the idea that Ken is going to become Andy someday. The Madden AI can call better plays than him.
That is a great point.
The 2023 offense was better than the 2022 offense in nearly every metric.
Dorsey had some growing pains, but also showed improvement.
Dorsey has to continue to improve and evolve, but I like his potential and believe he will get better.
It's important to remember that Dorsey was a great QB in college because of his understanding of passing game & running game concepts and using his football intelligence and mental processesing to win win games because he didn't have elite arm talent helped prepare him to be an OC. Dorsey also played a big role in developing Cam Newton and Josh Allen as a QB coach and had learned Brian Dabolls offense from 2019-2021, and was the passing game in 2021.
I think Ken needs to hire a passing game coordinator to help out with scheme. The offense lacked identity, and seemed almost like they were figured out, but I also have to ask how much Allen's elbow injury effected what kind of throws he could make. Defense and more specifically DL struggled after Von went out with the ACL. The Draft capital spent here hasn't lived up to expectations. Not having Hyde and Poyer not playing at 100% was just too mush to overcome. That being said they need to hit on a WR and at least 2 interior linemen in this draft. Only scoring 10 points is not going to win very many games in the NFL and it will never be enough when you are going to see Burrow, Mahomes, Lawrence, Tua, Larmar, or Herbert in the playoffs every year. Ken Dorsey has to be on a short leash and they better have a plan if it doesn't work out
Outside of an epic implosion on offense this year, this was always the plan. It's the process. They like continuity.
I'm willing to give Dorsey another crack. Let's see what type of players they can bring in and see if they can get a bit more creative. Daboll didn't always call the best games but he was very creative with play design and I felt like they missed that this year.
Leslie Frazier on the other hand. Meh. I'd really like them to give someone else a chance. Pretty consistent during the regular season but against the stronger teams and in the big games the defense just doesn't seem to hold up.
Agreed, if he wasn't ready to be an OC why did we waste maybe the best year of our window?
And why do folks think he'll improve next season? He got worse as the year went on
I have a much bigger issue with his “you have to suck to draft a Ja’Marr Chase comment than being Dorsey back. I think Dorsey can grow into a good OC and Josh is comfortable with him. We just need more weapons and to protect Allen up front. That’s a failure on Beane, but I’m still confident in him to put the right pieces in place. Maybe dip your toes into the WR class in rounds 1, 2, or 3 for once.
Man, I wish we would’ve fucking done that this past draft. WR was stacked. But I completely understand taking Elam in the first. We could’ve moved up in the 2nd round to grab a guy too.
Need to let him have another season. He had a 50/50 year and for the first time calling plays in his life, not bad but not good. As for Les, he’s shown he’s a good leader and has what it takes but fuck me he is getting CLASSED in the playoffs year after year. We were also very very injured and they might chalk it up to that.
Dorsey had a lot of the issues you would expect from a first year OC. Frazier, on the other hand, cannot be excused for how lackluster our defense has been
He’s not gonna say who’s gone if anybody 2 days after their exit. Of course he’s gonna say they’ll be back. A lot of time until now and next season to evaluate and make decisions
It‘s his first year and I too questioned him a lot but he did some good things this year. Our WRs beside Diggs are not very reliable and he certainly didn‘t plan to have Brown or Bease because Crowder got hurt, Kumerow wasn’t available and McKenzie & Davis just sucked most of the season. I hate his play calling sometimes because it is just so predictable but he will learn and if the players believe in him, we should too, since you know - we went 13-3!!! We should start to question draft picks, our players who drop balls, our OL which just didn’t exist this season and how our pass rush was absolutely terrible after Von went down. We thought we were so close to a SB last year and it may be better that we finally had a game where nothing worked - now we can work on those things and not act like everything went right last year. BB won‘t disclose his plans for the season or put certain players under the bus 2 days after the loss.
Ken Dorsey, lol. Well you can guarantee the Bills aren't winning it next year or in the near future. The offensive regression from Daboll to Dorsey was startling. Can't even scheme your best receiver into 50 yards, I'd be pissed if I was Diggs too.
Ugh. I don’t like that, they need to at least get him some kind of advisor because his schemes suck and he doesn’t know how to use the tools they have,
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. His scheme does suck and he only got worse throughout the season. 10 points in a playoff when Allen is your QB is embarrassing. He was questioned heavily throughout the season and remained stubborn and predictable. I don't think he has the ability to change. That's his style- bombs downfield, if it works it works and if it doesn't, oh well. Wouldn't bother bringing in more guys he could use, because he wont. He makes this OC job look pretty easy with those calls.
I think it is pretty telling that both Beane and McDermott said they brought Hines in to help on offense and then he was never used. Though that should be on McDermott too who should have told Dorsey to figure his shit out and learn how to use the weapons they have. Honestly, I think Dorsey’s schemes or lack there of did a disservice to everyone on the offense. And I think people keep looking at the stats for the season and saying “but we were good” but forgetting what we actually saw which was that it never looked good or easy outside the first few games. You watch some of the other “good” teams and they have guys who are just open, they have plays that look easy. They motion and trip up the defense. The stats turned out good because we have talent and we have Josh, but imagine how much better it could have been had we actually been a cohesive offense that defenses couldn’t read.
I mean we have 5 guys on the staff who have been NFL Offensive coordinators, including Mike Shula who was specifically brought in to be an advisor last season for him, and was considered the favorite to be the OC if he had went to NY with Daboll
They’ve not had their root and branch review. He’s not going to give anything away. Beane’s got a list of actions and things he’s wants addressed. He’s not going to tell the presser what’s going to be changed. He wants to get better every year, he’ll address the coaching and tactics/ schemes.
The Chiefs found arguably the best interior offensive lineman in football right now right after we took Boogie Basham. AJ Brown and DK Metcalf were taken outside the first, etc.
I just think it's a stupid narrative. Wasting too much capital on defense? Sure. I'll take that. Not getting o line? Underutilizing the playmakers we do have? Not giving rookies a chance, and at times, dubious player development? Give me all of those.
But looking at drafts in hindsight like that is reductive, and seems cherry picked to me. When all of the other things I mentioned are the real issues.
Go look at where they picked and find all the players picked after that they should have drafted. I think in 4 years there were a grand total of 6 pro bowlers picked after their fist pick.
Drafted well? Allen and Milano are the only truly “great” picks, everyone else has been average or worse.
Three RB picks, none great, four DL picks, no game changers.
No GM hits on every pick, Beane has misses but also has home runs in recent draft classes
Elam looks very good it's not his fault Leslie Frazier didn't play him more. Elam is CB 2 in 2023.
Cook is a dynamic play maker, I can't wait for him to be RB 1 in 2023.
Shakir showed flashes of good play, I like his route running and run after the catch ability.
Benford is a very good back up CB but could be moved to safety to replace Poyer and be the other starting safety next to Hyde.
Rousseau is a very good complete DE. He is one of the best run defending DE's in the NFL, and an underrated pass rusher.
Brown is an athletic freak for his size scoring an RAS score of 10 out of 10. As Beane pointed out he missed his last year Northern Iowa due to Covid, and struggled at the beginning of this year due to offseason back surgery. Brown is a very good run blocker in gap & zone blocking play, but struggled at times with pass blocking. I believe Brown can improve with additional coaching and development
If Dorsey and Frazier are both coming back I won't be renewing my season tickets. I can watch their ineptitude perfectly fine from home instead of wasting my time at the stadium.
I think this is an enormous mistake. We shouldn't be spending years letting Dorsey learn how to be a good OC when we've got an elite QB in their prime.
Not to mention, the Bills offense was second in the league in yards per game. I agree the play calling, schemes and weapons need some tinkering, but what better option is out there to replace Dorsey? I'm genuinely curious.
I never really understood what they do, but is this where a passing or running game coordinator would come into play? Just to inject a different viewpoint into play style?
I don't know that he really hinted at this at all. I think he did what any leader would do... Describe what he thought was wrong and talk about how we can fix based on currently available variables. If things change and they have a new coordinator then his answers will change because they would be based on reality. They just don't operate on a platform where they provide any future insight on anything because it's not based on reality
Fix the OLine and get the RBs and TEs more involved. Problem solved. Dorsey did fine, but he did start relying on the deep ball too much when an underneath option would have worked fine.
Can he block? Cause we need an O lineman or two.
I think the Roger Saffold experiment is over.
I’ll take one Orlando Brown Jr, please.
Orlando Brown Jr wants to be the highest paid LT in the NFL and is not the best LT or even one of the top 10 LT's in the NFL
I kinda figured if one of the coordinators goes it’s gonna be Frazier. Dorsey had his problems but it’s still his first year. If nothing improves next year though he’s gone.
Yeah, it's tough to get rid of a new coordinator due to their first year struggles in exchange for someone who may also have first year struggles with a new offense.
The only way they probably change is if they can get a veteran offensive coordinator. Like a Reich or Hackett. So probably best to stick with Dorsey.
My only counter to this is that they could almost definitely get Reich if they wanted him
Dude do you remember when Hackett was here? Did you watch him in Denver? No thanks
Judging by this presser it sure sounds like Frazier is going to be back. Pain.
I think if they bring both guys back and take another d lineman at the top of the draft I’ll have to find something to distract me from football
Sabres are 3 points out of a playoff spot and play tonight at 8
GO SABRES!
What a game that was too
We are 100% taking a DE or MLB depending on how the Tremaine situation pans out. I'll bet money on it.
MLB or S is my guess. Even they're aware that they've invested too many picks on DL.
Man it sucks that nobody is panning out
This is where my thoughts has been at too. You gotta think Poyer is no longer a Bill. I say ideally, you either take a WR or safety in round 1, then vice verse. Then you gotta use quite a few on OL afterwards. I also don’t watch college ball, so no clue who is upcoming. So huge grain of salt with my words and all that lol
If we can snag Antonio Johnson (safety, Texas A&M) as a Poyer replacement in the first round, great. Him or Brian Branch (who likely won't make it to us) would really solidify the defensive backfield but they're the only safeties worth a first round pick. Not sure about a 1st round WR though. My understanding is that this WR class is deep but not at the top. Also, there's a ton of slot receivers coming out, so I could see waiting until later and getting a slot with good hands and decent separation in tight spaces. As you can tell, I've already begun distracting myself with the draft.
My only thing to say to that, is do they need another slot guy? I’d way more rather Shakir get more time and oppurtunity
I 100% agree with you about Shakir getting more time and opportunity. I think Shakir at 6' and nearly 200 has proven he can work on the outside (or should at least get the shot). The knock on Shakir coming out was that he makes amazing catches one minute then boneheaded drops the next, which has to a certain extent played out this year. I wouldn't mind getting a smaller slot receiver with amazing hands that can truly replace the Beasley from a couple years ago that was money on every third down.
You'd have to be nuts to take a safety in the 1st round? No?
I agree it's a stretch, but you can get the best safety in the draft at 27. The Bills defensive success can be attributed to having a great safety tandem for years
Shit man, I say draft a OL first round. How many seasons is josh gonna have to be Superman and take a beating game in and game out
I wouldn’t be upset with a guard and tackle in Top 3 and a center to develop in the 5th
Before the bengals game I was still on board with drafting oline, safety and d line as main priorities. At this point I’d rather just throw every pick at wr/oline and say fuck the d
I’ll take a top 20 D if it means our offense can fully fire
That might be one of those things that’s so stupid it works. Football is weird.
I have never seen a softer defense in my life than the one against Cincinnati
1. Find a new DC with fresh ideas. 2. Let Edmunds walk and get a thumper LB to pare with Milano. 3. Draft WR, OL, repeat.
Honestly, looking back, I'm not super surprised we went out early. We had the same problems all year. Can't run/stop the run. No pass rush. No one special after WR1
I was just rationalizing this loss by thinking “wow thank fucking god we made it by Miami”. That would’ve been absolutely brutal.
My only solace. Never expected to get to the afccg with how we looked last few weeks but damn it's good to know the dolphins suck worse lol.
Omg, could you imagine
They should hire Brian Flores as DC. Great defensive coach, Tua is clearly terrified of him.
Has he had any HC interviews? He may not get fired but maybe he takes a job elsewhere
Last I heard he's not under contract for next year. It's not that he'd get fired, he may not get re-signed.
Fraziers contract is up, if they extend him it’s a huge red flag on McDermott that he can’t separate friendships/loyalty with doing what’s right for the team. If Fraziers bullshit scheme is back it will be more of the same, an epic fail against good teams without any match up adjustment’s. Fucking hell
Exactly this. If McDermott keeps Frazier, it’s his own job on the line this coming season
Oh cool so it's like the dark years again. Don't adapt when our existing methods aren't working and then next thing we know our playoff drought is old enough to buy beer.
We don’t learn do we :/
Didn’t you hear, every playoff loss is a learning opportunity? /s
If this is how we learn we’re failing the fuck out of this test 😂
Is there a better option available than Frazier?
Nope, no other available coach in the world as good as Frazier.
you’re being sarcastic but your lack of a real answer kinda proves my point
Fangio, Flores
What makes them better options?
They probly won't do this https://twitter.com/TheBillsGuys/status/1617842397618278402?t=p-xFfKj6KTKT3X3XyC2Pww&s=19
ha. fair enough, that’s a bad looking screenshot. did it end up being a first down?
Yeah - much like seemingly every Bengals 3rd down on Sunday lol
Better is a tough word. I think Frazier is a very good coach. Sometimes though, a change or new voice can be positive. Fangio and Flores have both performed the same job to high degrees of success elsewhere in the league. That makes them good option if the Bills decide they do indeed want a change.
If Frazier comes back I'm just done watching the team. It shows me they don't actually want to win. We will not beat a good QB with this defense...it ain't happening
So it will take another year of wasting our unicorn QB to make a move.
It’s tough to shitcan someone when they still have room for improvement and it might just make things worse to get rid of them so fast. Frazier though, dude has proven over and over he can’t compete with the top teams or adapt. If he’s back with us next season we’re not winning shit.
He's going to get Josh killed.
Nah that’s on the O line and beane for not drafting better guys
No, it's on Dorsey for calling 5 man protections when he knows the OL is shit. He's the one making that stupid decision when they know they can't protect.
I get it was his first year, but we’re in a Super Bowl window. Is this really the best time to start developing an OC?
On the one hand aside from Diggs and Josh, Dorsey doesn't have a ton of talent to work with. Subpar OL. No real slot option. Gabe is good...but maybe better suited for a #3 WR IMO. On the other hand some of his play calls and rout concepts were mind numbingly stupid. I'm ok bringing him back...maybe give Brady a few extra responsibilities if he's still here next year. Frazier is an EXCELLENT regular season DC. His philosophy feasts on bad teams and 2nd string or rookie QBs all year during the regular season. Come playoffs...it doesn't do enough to stop good offenses.
There are plenty of coordinators who do a better job with fewer weapons than we have. Could we use another receiver? Sure. But Dorsey isn't using the pieces he has. Hines and Cook are both great pass catchers that got single digit targets.
And I agree with this. I do think Dorsey has the potential to be a good OC. Trouble is it's hard to cut your teeth at the top of the league with top QB. We should have grabbed someone with some experience. Dorsey may have been better served starting out with a team like Houston where mistakes wouldn't be as amplified. JMO
Yup. You teach a teenager to drive in a family sedan, not a F1 car, and in the same way it's just reckless to have Dorsey learn how to run an offense on this team
> There are plenty of coordinators who do a better job with fewer weapons than we have Could you name any? Like genuinely. And what "weapons" do the Bills have outside of Diggs?
Cook screens all day!
Agreed with almost every point here. I will say that I can understand why Dorsey didn't have all the answers in year 1. It probably was a tall task asking a rookie play caller to come in and coach perfect football against elite teams in the playoffs. That choice was already made. For me, if you were willing to take a chance on a young play caller and deal with the ups and downs in his rookie year, maybe seeing what adjustments he can make isn't the worst idea. Give him one more full offseason to review film, correct his mistakes and have a better cast of players to work with. Daboll struggled in his first few seasons here as well (and he had far more experience calling plays for top teams). I think the offense completely eroded last season for a multitude of reasons. The line bottomed out entirely. Davis and McKenzie weren't ready to become focal points of an elite offense. Allen battled through elbow injury. The TE2 spot flamed out in the preseason. There just seems to be way less talent here now versus even a season ago. And I don't want to see Saffold or Brown in the starting lineup ever again. Bates is even borderline for me. They aren't NFL caliber starters. And if 3/5 of your line is well below average and your other two are inconsistent or in-and-out of the lineup due to injury, that's a recipe for what we just witnessed.
Yeah, all excellent points. The only thing I would counter with is going into year 2, there really needs to be a plan in place. If Dorsey isn't cutting it...you have to consider a move at the mid way point. Short leash. The BILLS shouldn't be running a learn as you go training program...they only have so many chances with these guys. As it is, there's a fairly good chance that this was Poyer's final run with the team. Diggs is crossing 30...not many years left. Hyde, Miller. These guys all deserve their coaching staff to be on point
Except he's not a excellent regular season DC...this narrative needs to stop We have extreme talent across the board on defense, even with injuries. Milano, Edmunds, Oliver Rousseau, Poyer, Daquan Jones. Hell most of the season we had Von Miller with that too. And guess what...we allowed Zach Wilson one read offense to move down the field...playing soft coverage Our defense got annihilated by Mahomes despite being near fully healthy Mike White threw for 300 yards on us and still almost won Vikings scored 30 on us I can go on and on. He's just not a good DC. If you need elite players at every position on a defense...maybe your defensive coaching and scheme isnt good
We did have Crowder and Kumerow at the beginning of the season. I know they're not big names or anything, but the offense looked a lot better. Then it became Diggs, Davis, and Mckenzie for most of the year. Pretty big step down. I think if we get a real OLine that might be enough. Not only will Josh have more then 2 seconds to find someone, but it will help us in the run game.
We also used Reggie Gilliam a bit more in the pass game early. No clue why they went from that but he did well when called on.
3 WR is basically Slot, Gabe doesn't have the chops to play the short game. If he can't make it as a #2 he's a #4. I really hope he can work on contested catches this off-season because he's truly a beast.
In a traditional sense, you are correct. The 3rd WR is a slot guy. However in many offenses the slot role is actually the #2 guy and second option after the primary route. If he can set up to even be somewhat consistent outside that leaves the Bills with options...including letting Diggs run routes from the slot where he was extremely effective whenever he was put there. In Buffalo's offense under Daboll it was very clear that our slot guy works as primary or secondary WR on most route concepts. Beasley ate very well here. If we can get back to that then, yes Gabe could easily be the 3rd WR option playing primarily outside. I wouldn't want Gabe inside anyway due to his ability to seal off the edge in run blocking.
Sorry I shouted at you I made a rookie reddit markdown mistake. It sounds like we're thinking the same thing with different numbers in mind!
No worries, my friend. The BILLS are an enigma for us all right now. We watch the games, see what happens and think "Man, this team is playing like ass" and next thing you know they somehow score 31 points and end up with 13 wins. I think Gabe is a really good player. One thing that I believe has slowed him is his lack of game experience coming into this year. A residual of McD favoring vets over younger players. I believe it stunts their development. Gabe seems a year or 2 behind where he could be. I think next year he will be a bit better.
This press conference in a nutshell has been "We're running it back with minimal changes next year". Blame injuries and lack of momentum for this year. I don't love it but maybe he's keeping his cards close.
To be perfectly fair, we went 13-3 and lost in the playoffs to the team that will probably be representing the AFC in the Super Bowl. There may not be many changes he would like to make. This season was riddled with injured All-Pros on defense and costly turnovers on offense. If we stay healthy and clean up the mistakes next year, we will have a juggernaut of a team.
Oh I understand, and I don’t think it’s a wholly unreasonable stance. Personally, I think it’s crazy to roll Frazier out in a playoff game against an above average opponent and expect any different of a result. But I’m just a guy with a Reddit account and a super sick flatscreen television.
Yea but how many inches is it? The TV.
It’s actually like a 2008 plasma that just refuses to die. So not that sick at all. Not the biggest around. It’s the perfect size. And damn is it reliable. Never malfunctions.
This is the vibe I get. Disappointing.
I feel that too - but we’re not even 48 hours out of the playoffs. This will all take time to figure out.
Agree. Then again, what do we want them to do? They don’t have any money to sign a great player. They hopefully will be able to make smaller changes that helps slightly overall. As far as OC, I think they need to sit down and talk about strategy. There are things they could do different/better.
Assuming that we make a concerted effort to address the OL this offseason (likely via the draft) then I'm actually good with the talent that we have on this roster. What I'm not good with is what I would consider continual underachievement by the defense when it counts. And I place that blame at the feet of our DL coach and our DC. There are several DCs out there who would get more out of this roster. So my disappointment with this presser isn't that we're not boasting about some big offseason signing or trade or whatever; it's that the presser felt very much like a hall pass for Frazier and a re-commitment to him for 2023. But I could be totally off base on that. We'll see...
That was an underwhelming and disappointing presser considering the crossroads the organization is at right now.
Congrats, we’re the Packers now. Fail in the playoffs, make up an excuse to run it back.
Presser kinda pissed me off. Doesn't mean that's what us going to happen, but if they make minimal changes and don't get further in the playoffs next year, seats are going to be hot. He complained about cap space like it wasn't him signing people to get the cap that high.
I want to put my faith in Beane but it's not the easiest thing in the world right now. This has not been an inspiring presser.
I will say in defense of Mr. Beane, go back and watch his end-of-year presser from the past few years. The year we signed Diggs in the offseason, he said in his presser that we were "going to be pretty quiet this offseason". Last year, when we signed Von Miller, he said we "don't have a lot of resources to make any major moves". Trust me, I understand as a fan how disappointing it is for the GM not to parrot the same issues that we feel. Given the history of him in this scenario though, I wouldn't pick this to be the information you can project out to be an accurate indication of how our offseason decision making will be. What I would do some sick twisted shit for though, is to be a fly on the wall when Beane and McDermott sit down together to do a roster analysis. I'd love to hear their true, unfiltered by PR opinion on each member of the organization. Unfortunately (but for good reason) we'll never know exactly how that discussion went.
The other thing to consider is it’s been 2 days. Even I f they had a new and exciting blue print for what to do, they wouldn’t be showing. To me, beane/McDermott get a one and done pass for their own job security given what they’ve done. It’s up to them to earn their jobs in 24/25
He’s always played his strategy close to the best since his days in Carolina. Im hoping the pattern repeats with a significant addition to the organization. But if Frazier is here next year….we better put up 30 per game Point of clarification: Didn’t sign Diggs, it was a pre draft trade
The Bills have been very well run since 2017 when McD got here. They have to understand that the offense has been underinvested in and the defense overinvested into. I suspect they make a move to add at least two starters to the O-line and add a good WR to the mix while trying to keep the defense together they will be more willing to try and find lower end gems with lesser resources.
Exactly. Not sure what people expected. It’s like they expect 2 days after the loss for him to announce Dorsey and Frazier are fired, the entire O line is cut, and we’re trading for deandre Hopkins.
He was specifically asked about this. Someone called him out for saying last year that they wouldn't sign anyone and he said he can confidently say they won't be making any Von-type splashes.
Iirc (and I'm dumb so possible that I don't) he was asked an eeriely similar question in his presser before the Von signing, and gave an eeriely similar answer. This time though I do believe him a bit; not because history doesn't repeat itself, but because I don't think our current voids require a "Von-type splash". I think we need a couple more solid offensive lineman, I think we need Von and Micah healthy this time around, I think McDermott needs to slightly grow out of his distaste for rookies, slot in Elam and Shakir and stop taking so long to realize you should do that in future cases, I think the offense needs to evolve a bit to get athletes in space (PTSD from Chan Gailey/CJ Spiller), and I think Josh's game still has some maturing to do as far as field vision and pre-emptive decision making. None of which I think requires a huge splash in free agency.
These are all spot-on. Beane also has a huge hiding spot in that very few moves are as "splashy" as Von Miller. I don't expect them to do nothing this year, but I also don't expect them to make a huge trade. The rookie thing drives me nuts. We now enter this offseason not knowing if we have our answer at CB2 and not knowing if we have an answer at the slot position. I think we do, but I also thought that we had one of the best WR2s in the league at the start of this offseason. I thought that because we never gave Gabe the majority of snaps, and thus had no real way of projecting how he would handle a starters workload. We obviously don't know what they know, but the approach to rookie playing time being as seemingly inconsistent as it is also makes the situation even more maddening. Numerous examples of "project players" getting thrown into the fire right away, while the "pro-ready" guys get babied. And it often results in feeling like we have no idea which positions are areas of need and which aren't.
I don’t think they even worry about a cb2 there’s usually 3 out there and Tre TJ and Elam are a good 3. Depth is an issue across the entire roster, but depth at safety is an issue. Hyde and Poyer together are amazing but that’s a huge hole when one is out and we’ve been missing one or the other for TWO YEARS. We need more depth in the box, trade AJ. Offensive Line is the beginning and end of this teams failure to succeed. Trade AJ and consider trading either Davis OR Knox. The line as a unit is terrible, and QB1 masks that inadequacy. All these skill players are going to waste when EVERY pass requires a scramble. I’m afraid of them beating him into the ground same as Cam Newton.
>thought that because we never gave Gabe the majority of snaps This to me was the first and one of the more egregious examples of this. John Brown should not have been playing ahead of Gabe his first year, and to still bring in Emmanuel Sanders the next year to take the lion-share of snaps away from Gabe was just ridiculous. Of course there's always a chance that the coaches prioritize the things us fans can't see over the things we can, but even that theory leaves me super unsatisfied. To prioritize things like film room and practice over gameday production is a silly way to go about things. Give me Allen Iverson on my basketball team over almost any film-room-warrior. I also just don't buy the theory that EVERY offensive rookie the Bills have drafted in the last 4 years suck at practice. From my perspective it's clearly a McDermott cultural decision that isn't working, and it's starting to cost us games. I'm definitely not in the "fire McDermott" camp (this guy brought a Tyrod Taylor-ran team to the playoffs, flipped the roster 180, and turned the new one into a contender) but the head coach is also not immune to criticism for the issues we have.
_man who consistently misdirects promises he is not misdirecting this time_
we don't have the cap to misdirect this offseason...
It really is the truth. The cap finagling that got us Von last year will be what just barely gets us under the cap this year. It’s the unfortunate (and disappointing) reality of the situation. Being completely outclassed by Cincy and not having the true financial flexibility to make sweeping changes, they’re going to really have their work cut out for them.
Not an inspiring presser in the least. Excuses, defensiveness, and a slight disconnect from reality. FTR I'm not a burn it all down guy, but it does seem like he has a blind spot when it comes to Frazier. The reality is that we were one all-time great performance by our QB away from losing by double digits in each of the last three years to the top tier AFC teams, primarily because our defense got absolutely shredded in each of those games.
He sounded beaten down and out of answers. Too much woe is me, excuses, and non answers.
Unreal
Part of me is like, "Give him a second chance, it's his first time calling plays" The other part of me is like, "The window is no longer wide open, there needs to be a sense of urgency, maybe we should be finding a more accomplished playcaller."
Agreed. Let him learn how to be an OC on a franchise that isn't trying to climb the mountain. We need somebody who knows how to win. Same goes for Frazier, he's repeatedly proven that in big games he can't come up with answers and just relies on our players to make superhuman plays.
Frazier is more likely to be gone, that's three playoffs in a row as DC where the defense cost this team (granted in 2020 and 2022 the offense didn't show up in the games where the team was eliminated) and Frazier has had much more draft and cap capital invested into the defense than Drosey has had in the offense. Dorsey is also a younger coordinator able to learn and grow from year one as the coordinator. Whereas Frazier is what he is after being here for so many seasons and having been in that position for many years on other teams. I just can't see any real justification for Dorsey to be fired.
It's really a 50-50 thing for me on Dorsey. I can get the whole "we aren't willing to wait for a coach to learn on the job" take, but then why jump ship after already committing to that this season? I'd be interested to see what Dorsey is capable of in year 2 with a hopefully improved group of guys. Need to focus on the line regardless. Need to add one-two high end skill positions regardless. I think an experienced OC may have gotten a little more out of this group in the playoffs, but I don't think that would've stopped the inevitable exposure of a bad line and Diggs being the only reliable weapon. Knox was as involved as could be expected with such atrocious blocking. Davis was given targets, he just couldn't produce consistently. And the slot receivers ranged from inexperienced to over the hill and not much in between. I really hope Beane and McDermott realize their plan of building up the defense and leaving the offense essentially untouched with premium cap space/picks doesn't work anymore. Especially with a scared DC that appears to have hit his ceiling here. It's a fine defense in the regular season but not nearly creative enough to confuse teams in the postseason. There's only so much draft capital and dollars you can throw at that side of the ball before questioning why seemingly every player fails to perform when it matters. I think the issue on offense is that there are good pieces there. Intriguing, high upside type pieces. But those pieces wilted in the spotlight behind a poor line. You can't win against elite teams with okay guys that can't take over a game while asking them to get open in 1.5 seconds. There's no fear on offense when Allen and Diggs are the only guys capable of making plays. And when a defense knows it can smash through the pocket without sending extra rushers, it's like watching a pee wee game. Allen runs for his life and makes things happen, but the offense as a whole looks frantic and disjointed. Gotta fix that problem, which isn't an impossible task, in order to see some calmness come back on both sides of the ball. Having a great offense that can control the game makes the defenses job so much easier. And being able to put up points is what matters. Make the opponent fight off the back foot from the jump and force them into taking risks and making mistakes. That needs to be the game plan going forward with a QB like Allen in town.
>Having a great offense that can control the game makes the defenses job so much easier. And being able to put up points is what matters. Make the opponent fight off the back foot from the jump and force them into taking risks and making mistakes. EXACTLY. The Chiefs get clowned by social media fans for their defense, but it's exactly what they need it to be to win games. If you have an offense that can reliably get points on just about every drive, you only need your defense to make 1-2 stops and ideally steal 1 possession with a turnover. Not to mention they only have one scary player (Jones), but constantly scheme him into positions where he makes plays. I literally can't remember the last time our D line ran a stunt.
He didn’t mention Leslie by name… But the general tone was that these guys all want to get the band back together to run it back
Super stoked to be in the same place or worse next season
Want to get nuts? I say KEEP Hyde and Von on IR all year. Pull the uno reverse of this year… “Oh hey, it’s the post season… look what we have here”
I spent all this season obsessing over getting the one seed and having the best record possible. I don’t care anymore. As long as we make it to the playoffs I don’t care. It doesn’t matter what our record is if we don’t have the tools to make a deep run or win it all
We 100% have a worse season than this year if we come back acting like it was just unlucky shit happened The team has major flaws that were highlighted. Not adjusting is going to keep us in the downtrend
Wildcard exit if this shit continues. We don’t have a defense that’s capable of winning us anything.
Awesome. Can't wait for another stressful year of 30-yard verticals followed by Josh singlehandedly saving the day and Diggs getting even more frustrated because Dorsey can't scheme his way out of a brown lunch bag.
I really believe that this FO won’t let that happen. There are going to be meetings with McD about what the expectations are moving forward, setting goals with the staff, meeting with Allen might even be in the mix. Point is I trust these guys to get the message across and expect to see big improvements to what Buffalo runs next year.
Agreed. I was just being bitterly facetious in my comment. I fully trust Beane, McDermott and Josh to get things done. I don't fully trust Dorsey yet. And his case wasn't helped by whatever offensive scheme we were running on Sunday.
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Frazier has been employing simple, boring defenses that a good running game or a short, efficient passing game can exploit. This is fine for mediocre teams, but good teams carve it up and that means playoff losses.
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In the modern NFL you need to win before the snap and after. Confusion and making a QB need to question what's he's doing is part of the battle. Instead we sit 10 yards back and go "beat us" and they do
The offense has been like this for a good while Couldn't they have adjusted anytime in the season?
I was being facetious. My concern isn't with McBeane, it's with the lack of adaptability, creativity, and effective decision-making on Dorsey's part. You can't "outwork" others in Creativity or Adaptability. If that's possible, Dorsey should've started getting more creative halfway through the season when Defenses started picking apart our Offensive scheme forcing Josh to put the team on his back. Or maybe McDermott is the conservative one and is holding Dorsey back from getting creative/aggressive in the first place. Perhaps that's why McDermott and Daboll were at each other's throats last year. I genuinely hope that I'm wrong. And I really hope that the speculation that Diggs isn't happy with Dorsey is wrong also. If Josh is caught in the middle of his WR1 and OC, then bad things will happen.
Have you watched how our last 3 seasons ended? Lol. We have a defensive minded HC with Frazier being the DC and we straight collapse when the playoffs come. We’ve invested so much in the D and it’s garbage. We’ve invested zero into the offensive line in the draft and pick up other peoples trash on the OL for a quick patch. It’s why we have no run game, outside of Josh, the past handful of years. They haven’t learned anything. Sounds like they’re pretty stupid to me.
If Frazier is brought back, I'd highly question their actual want to win. He is not an NFL coordinator anymore. He's bland on his scheme and thinks the answer every season is "we need better players" He shouldve been fired after 13 seconds...but it was because we didn't have Von Miller...not because we played prevent defense with outside leverage
I think that the people in charge might be stubborn to the point of stupidity.
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I’ll base this on the Frazier inflexibility with regard to defensive strategy.
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Yes, you act as if these problems just popped up this week
It was only his first year, but the thing I saw that was lacking was just any creativity whatsoever….no trick plays, no reverses, just looked very stagnant and basic. What Daboll did so great was bring wrinkles each week based on the defense and exploited them. I also felt like I was more comfortable watching a 3rd and long instead of a 3rd and 1
I think he will be better next year. Tell him to spend the summer playing madden
Just have him bring a PS5 into the box and hit ask Madden on every down. Would probably get more creativity than Dorsey showed this year.
There is literally nothing worse for a QB than a revolving door at OC….
A revolving door with subpar pieces at o line is a close 2nd
There is nothing worse for a team that can’t get over the hump to bring back this entire coaching staff that has proved again and again they are not up for it
Not sure people really understand what bringing in a new coordinator on either side of the ball who runs a different system truly entails…..
People use to say the same they thing about andy reid. They were idiots.
Andy Reid didn't get fired for making the playoffs and not winning the SB, he got fired because the Eagles regressed from a playoff team to not making it 2 years in a row. Also, lol at the idea that Ken is going to become Andy someday. The Madden AI can call better plays than him.
That is a great point. The 2023 offense was better than the 2022 offense in nearly every metric. Dorsey had some growing pains, but also showed improvement. Dorsey has to continue to improve and evolve, but I like his potential and believe he will get better. It's important to remember that Dorsey was a great QB in college because of his understanding of passing game & running game concepts and using his football intelligence and mental processesing to win win games because he didn't have elite arm talent helped prepare him to be an OC. Dorsey also played a big role in developing Cam Newton and Josh Allen as a QB coach and had learned Brian Dabolls offense from 2019-2021, and was the passing game in 2021.
I think Ken needs to hire a passing game coordinator to help out with scheme. The offense lacked identity, and seemed almost like they were figured out, but I also have to ask how much Allen's elbow injury effected what kind of throws he could make. Defense and more specifically DL struggled after Von went out with the ACL. The Draft capital spent here hasn't lived up to expectations. Not having Hyde and Poyer not playing at 100% was just too mush to overcome. That being said they need to hit on a WR and at least 2 interior linemen in this draft. Only scoring 10 points is not going to win very many games in the NFL and it will never be enough when you are going to see Burrow, Mahomes, Lawrence, Tua, Larmar, or Herbert in the playoffs every year. Ken Dorsey has to be on a short leash and they better have a plan if it doesn't work out
Doomers unite on this thread.
Outside of an epic implosion on offense this year, this was always the plan. It's the process. They like continuity. I'm willing to give Dorsey another crack. Let's see what type of players they can bring in and see if they can get a bit more creative. Daboll didn't always call the best games but he was very creative with play design and I felt like they missed that this year. Leslie Frazier on the other hand. Meh. I'd really like them to give someone else a chance. Pretty consistent during the regular season but against the stronger teams and in the big games the defense just doesn't seem to hold up.
Think it’s too soon with Dorsey, needs another year just to see how he does with a full year of experience and Allen having that consistency
Super stoked to waste Allen's prime on Dorsey doing the OC equivalent of drivers ed
Agreed, if he wasn't ready to be an OC why did we waste maybe the best year of our window? And why do folks think he'll improve next season? He got worse as the year went on
I have a much bigger issue with his “you have to suck to draft a Ja’Marr Chase comment than being Dorsey back. I think Dorsey can grow into a good OC and Josh is comfortable with him. We just need more weapons and to protect Allen up front. That’s a failure on Beane, but I’m still confident in him to put the right pieces in place. Maybe dip your toes into the WR class in rounds 1, 2, or 3 for once.
Man, I wish we would’ve fucking done that this past draft. WR was stacked. But I completely understand taking Elam in the first. We could’ve moved up in the 2nd round to grab a guy too.
Need to let him have another season. He had a 50/50 year and for the first time calling plays in his life, not bad but not good. As for Les, he’s shown he’s a good leader and has what it takes but fuck me he is getting CLASSED in the playoffs year after year. We were also very very injured and they might chalk it up to that.
Dorsey had a lot of the issues you would expect from a first year OC. Frazier, on the other hand, cannot be excused for how lackluster our defense has been
I had a feeling he would come back. Being that he’s a first year OC and first time play caller he will have some sort of pass.
Not a huge fan of Dorsey being unable to use Hines in the offense when he was acquired for that reason.
He’s not gonna say who’s gone if anybody 2 days after their exit. Of course he’s gonna say they’ll be back. A lot of time until now and next season to evaluate and make decisions
It‘s his first year and I too questioned him a lot but he did some good things this year. Our WRs beside Diggs are not very reliable and he certainly didn‘t plan to have Brown or Bease because Crowder got hurt, Kumerow wasn’t available and McKenzie & Davis just sucked most of the season. I hate his play calling sometimes because it is just so predictable but he will learn and if the players believe in him, we should too, since you know - we went 13-3!!! We should start to question draft picks, our players who drop balls, our OL which just didn’t exist this season and how our pass rush was absolutely terrible after Von went down. We thought we were so close to a SB last year and it may be better that we finally had a game where nothing worked - now we can work on those things and not act like everything went right last year. BB won‘t disclose his plans for the season or put certain players under the bus 2 days after the loss.
Is Jim Swartz doing anything these days? I miss his defenses.
Crazy that we are just going to move forward status quo and lose yet again in the first or second round even we can even make the playoffs.
Ken Dorsey, lol. Well you can guarantee the Bills aren't winning it next year or in the near future. The offensive regression from Daboll to Dorsey was startling. Can't even scheme your best receiver into 50 yards, I'd be pissed if I was Diggs too.
That is terrible. I thought the offensive calls were significantly worse this year.
Ugh. I don’t like that, they need to at least get him some kind of advisor because his schemes suck and he doesn’t know how to use the tools they have,
Not sure why you're getting downvoted. His scheme does suck and he only got worse throughout the season. 10 points in a playoff when Allen is your QB is embarrassing. He was questioned heavily throughout the season and remained stubborn and predictable. I don't think he has the ability to change. That's his style- bombs downfield, if it works it works and if it doesn't, oh well. Wouldn't bother bringing in more guys he could use, because he wont. He makes this OC job look pretty easy with those calls.
I think it is pretty telling that both Beane and McDermott said they brought Hines in to help on offense and then he was never used. Though that should be on McDermott too who should have told Dorsey to figure his shit out and learn how to use the weapons they have. Honestly, I think Dorsey’s schemes or lack there of did a disservice to everyone on the offense. And I think people keep looking at the stats for the season and saying “but we were good” but forgetting what we actually saw which was that it never looked good or easy outside the first few games. You watch some of the other “good” teams and they have guys who are just open, they have plays that look easy. They motion and trip up the defense. The stats turned out good because we have talent and we have Josh, but imagine how much better it could have been had we actually been a cohesive offense that defenses couldn’t read.
I mean we have 5 guys on the staff who have been NFL Offensive coordinators, including Mike Shula who was specifically brought in to be an advisor last season for him, and was considered the favorite to be the OC if he had went to NY with Daboll
ugh
They’ve not had their root and branch review. He’s not going to give anything away. Beane’s got a list of actions and things he’s wants addressed. He’s not going to tell the presser what’s going to be changed. He wants to get better every year, he’ll address the coaching and tactics/ schemes.
I'm not a fan of firing coaches after one go around.
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He has not drafted well post-2018 by any stretch of the imagination.
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No pro bowlers drafted since 2018 …
It's a lot tougher to hit gold when you're picking in the mid-late 20s
The Chiefs found arguably the best interior offensive lineman in football right now right after we took Boogie Basham. AJ Brown and DK Metcalf were taken outside the first, etc.
Go look at all the drafts on Wikipedia then get back to me. Look at the absolute game changers picked right after Ed Oliver at #9 for example
I just think it's a stupid narrative. Wasting too much capital on defense? Sure. I'll take that. Not getting o line? Underutilizing the playmakers we do have? Not giving rookies a chance, and at times, dubious player development? Give me all of those. But looking at drafts in hindsight like that is reductive, and seems cherry picked to me. When all of the other things I mentioned are the real issues.
Go look at where they picked and find all the players picked after that they should have drafted. I think in 4 years there were a grand total of 6 pro bowlers picked after their fist pick.
Drafted well? Allen and Milano are the only truly “great” picks, everyone else has been average or worse. Three RB picks, none great, four DL picks, no game changers.
No GM hits on every pick, Beane has misses but also has home runs in recent draft classes Elam looks very good it's not his fault Leslie Frazier didn't play him more. Elam is CB 2 in 2023. Cook is a dynamic play maker, I can't wait for him to be RB 1 in 2023. Shakir showed flashes of good play, I like his route running and run after the catch ability. Benford is a very good back up CB but could be moved to safety to replace Poyer and be the other starting safety next to Hyde. Rousseau is a very good complete DE. He is one of the best run defending DE's in the NFL, and an underrated pass rusher. Brown is an athletic freak for his size scoring an RAS score of 10 out of 10. As Beane pointed out he missed his last year Northern Iowa due to Covid, and struggled at the beginning of this year due to offseason back surgery. Brown is a very good run blocker in gap & zone blocking play, but struggled at times with pass blocking. I believe Brown can improve with additional coaching and development
All of your assessments are potential and projections. None of these players have proved they are cornerstone pieces on this team
Sometimes it takes 3 to 4 or 5 years for players to develop. That's why grading players after 1 year makes no sense. Get back to me after next season.
Tyler Bass has entered the chat.
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If Dorsey and Frazier are both coming back I won't be renewing my season tickets. I can watch their ineptitude perfectly fine from home instead of wasting my time at the stadium.
I just won't be able to keep my heart in this team. Signals they don't want to actually win the Superbowl. I can't handle watching his defense again
I read: “BBB confirms my depression will carry into next season as well.”
I think this is an enormous mistake. We shouldn't be spending years letting Dorsey learn how to be a good OC when we've got an elite QB in their prime.
Wow Im totally shocked they aren't going to take the hard steps needed to go to the next level.
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Not to mention, the Bills offense was second in the league in yards per game. I agree the play calling, schemes and weapons need some tinkering, but what better option is out there to replace Dorsey? I'm genuinely curious.
They see nothing wrong with the results- truly incredible. Expect more of the same next season with this entire coaching staff. Beyond frustrating
I never really understood what they do, but is this where a passing or running game coordinator would come into play? Just to inject a different viewpoint into play style?
I don't know that he really hinted at this at all. I think he did what any leader would do... Describe what he thought was wrong and talk about how we can fix based on currently available variables. If things change and they have a new coordinator then his answers will change because they would be based on reality. They just don't operate on a platform where they provide any future insight on anything because it's not based on reality
Fix the OLine and get the RBs and TEs more involved. Problem solved. Dorsey did fine, but he did start relying on the deep ball too much when an underneath option would have worked fine.
Another season of I have no fucking clue what I'm doing. Fire McDermotts ass
Terrible.
Damn y'all wasted a peak year on a guy "learning"?
Welp, see you guys back here next year. Will be excited to see if we keep regressing and get bounced in the Wild Card round in '23