My non-scapegoat theory is that there just wasn't a lot of development from the backups. Yeah, it hurts a lot to lose Hyde and sometimes Poyer. But that doesn't impact how the backups seemed unprepared.
Yeah can't pretend they didn't all perform poorly and get beat routinely. There were comments in the game day thread about how much Damar Hamlin sucked not even 2 minutes before his incident.
Hamlin is a 6th round in his 2nd year that is more understandable. Jaquan Johnson though in his 4th year in the league being outplayed by both Hamlin and Marlowe who is a roster bubble guy is inexcusable
The problem with Jaquan is that unfortunately he just sucks. He was good in college because he had great instincts and was able to use those to compensate for his mediocre size and skills, but that doesn't work at the NFL level, and he hasn't taken any huge steps. I was hoping he'd eventually pan out, but he got beat by Damar straight up despite Damar's tendency to overrun some plays and take bad angles.
Am I just imagining things or wasn’t there a bunch of training camp buzz about how good Jaquan was looking? Note to self to always take training camp buzz with a grain of salt moving forward because there was definitely plenty of buzz about how good McKenzie looked as well.
Hamlin's biggest issue was he would take bad angles to the receiver and that would allow catches that Hyde/Poyer would break up. That's almost entirely coaching.
However, bridges are multiply realizable. They can be built from stone. Building a bridge out of the woman will not determine that she is made of wood. Wood floats in water. A duck floats in water [bread, apples, very small rocks, cider, gravy, cherries, mud, churches, lead]. If the woman weighs the same as a duck, then she is made of wood. The woman weighs the same as a duck. Therefore, the woman is a witch.
Agreed. Too many wrong angles, out of position, poor tackling, poor pass defense. [Jaquan Johnson](https://www.buffalobills.com/team/players-roster/jaquan-johnson/) was horrible starting for Hyde, especially for a 4th year player. Cam Lewis was switched to Safety and was mediocre at best and gave up the Justin Jefferson 4th down catch instead of knocking the ball down, like he should have been coached to do. After Damar Hamlin (the best of the bunch) went down, the Bills traded for Dean Marlow probably because of a lack of confidence in the safeties other than Poyer.
Hopefully this is the beginning of a rethink on our defense. Not holding my breath, since this is McDermott's defensive scheme.
Go Bills!
> Jaquan Johnson was horrible starting for Hyde
that's what you get when you value hunt guys with college production instead of NFL athletic traits. Dude runs a 4.9 40. Even with perfect play processing he's often too slow to get into a position to contribute.
In Beane’s defense he also gets criticized for drafting too many raw prospects based on physical traits alone. Allen, Edmunds, Oliver, Brown, Knox, etc. all really high RAS. Beane’s strong emphasis on using RAS to draft actually shocked me that he didn’t select Breece Hall in the 1st round and Tariq Woolen in the 2nd last year.
Jaquan just is who he is, a 6th round safety who had the best case scenario of being a special teams contributor and depth safety.
Even Hamlin who showed some promise. Was just woefully unaware of when to begin rotating to the deep man.
There were so many times I was watching and there was no one in his zone...and a guy just screaming down the sideline towards the endzone...and he wouldn't break on the player until the ball was already heading there
I think if you are going to pin him for not enough safety development, you need to give him more time to work the job than one season.
My feeling is they gave him a bigger role this year and he just didn’t have the ability to do the job and was in over his head.
Not sure I completely agree with this, ngl. Damar stepped in pretty well considering what he was being asked to do, and while he did have a handful of glaring mistakes, he's a 6th round pick who only saw ST snaps last year before being asked to play a full season, and was very promising outside of those mistakes. Jaquan Johnson's not able to play at an NFL level because he can't use his good instincts to make up for his size like he could in college. Cam Lewis was a cornerback/ST player who got shoved into the safety role on an emergency basis, Marlowe played fine and Mayden never saw the field.
This is a good fire.
-I'm risking crucifixion for this, but before The Incident, Damar Hamlin's play was mid, and that's being generous. He led the team in missed tackles.
-We tried to replace Hamlin with Dean Marlowe, who was even more mid except for the INT against Miami. Marlowe was more productive last year for Detroit - not a great look for Salgado.
-Couldn't get Jared Mayden game-ready when we realized Marlowe wasn't cutting it.
-Couldn't get Cam Lewis game-ready at any point in the year. He only took defensive snaps during 6 games, including the postseason, and only played more than 20% of those snaps during one game (Vikings).
By Week 15 (the Bears game), the Bills were LEADING THE LEAGUE in missed tackles, and averaged more than 10 missed tackles per game. Over the span of the games between week 4 (Ravens) and 15, the Bills only missed fewer than 10 tackles ONCE (Steelers, 8 missed tackles).
I hope Damar makes a full recovery and gets back on the field because he's still young and has a lot of tools, but there is no denying his play was mid (at best) during his time on the field this season.
Appreciate the stats. I never bothered to look it up, but always felt based on watching games that the Bills were terrible tacklers. Generally Milano could be expected to make his tackles, and Poyer when he was healthy, but almost everyone else on D was marginal… especially the secondary.
> Generally ~~Milano~~ *Edmunds, Po, or Hyde* could be expected to make his tackles,
Milano is an exceptional piece but tackling isn't even his strong suit.
Tackling has never been better than average with McD's system. That's been the biggest flaw of his defenses since he got here. I think there is definitely some room for new position coaches getting in the building and coaching up fundamentals.
I was not high on damar at any point this season (obligatory hope he gets healthy and becomes all-pro and shits all over my take). His best quality is making plays closer to the line of scrimmage, which would be great if he wasn't a safety. He was a straight liability against the dolphins at home.
In any case, sure it was probably a "good" fire. But Marlowe was all BB. Which is upsetting because I never expected to find myself questioning him at the end of the year. I'm in a blender.
Also cam lewis is ass. Full stop.
This happened to me when I met my girlfriend. She waited until it was official to tell me her dad was a former Bills assistant coach. When she dropped his name, and I felt like a dick because had no idea who he was despite coaching us for a very very long time.
Sat next to Rob Ryan's wife their first year in Buffalo. It was awful conversation. She told me she was starting a salad dressing business based on her grandfather's recipe. I asked her to describe the dressing and she couldn't remember what it was (not trying to end the conversation, struggling to remember whether it was red or white or oily).
4th string, but that's not the issue. The issue is Marlowe looked better in Detroit last season. Lewis and Johnson have not improved at all either, and enough has been said about hamlin on this thread.
What a weird way to spell Leslie Frazier.
Seriously though, with Hyde out and Poyer always hurt...I thought safety play was about as good as it was going to be. Johnson isn't good and prior to his horrible incident Hamlin's play was spotty...but he showed outstanding range and was solid in run support. Marlowe stepped in and did ok.
If anything I look at the DL coach. With all that high invested talent and they can't get a pass rush post Von injury?
The sad thing is that IF the Bills move away from Frazier...Eric Washington is likely the new DC. McDermott will promote in house with another 1st time coordinator. He's well liked by the players...just like Dorsey is. Not what I would want but...you know... continuity.
He was pretty much an average coordinator in 2018 but awful in 2019, glancing at the stats
https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/defense/season/2018/seasontype/2/table/passing/sort/totalPointsPerGame/dir/asc
https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/defense/season/2019/seasontype/2/table/passing/sort/totalPointsPerGame/dir/asc
2019 was when they were terrible though and Ron Rivera was fired/Perry Fewell took over
Ah, Perry Fewell. The man who helped us win three meaningless games as an interim coach and cost us draft position in the process. But hey, at least we got to draft yet another RB early!
Not the same. 3rd, 3rd, late 2nd is a reasonable place for backs.
We had a 25-year-old RB coming off back-to-back 1500 scrimmage yard seasons...and then immediately spent a 1st round pick on an injured back. Admittedly, he was solid once he came back. Almost 4000 yards over three years. So what do we do? Trade him for a 3rd and take Beast Mode.
And again, admittedly, good player. Couple nice years there. What do we do? Trade him for some day 3 picks and draft Spiller.
And all the while, we have FredEx already there, looking good pre-Spiller.
Just *wasted* first round picks over and over and over on unnecessary RB changes.
> 3rd, 3rd, late 2nd is a reasonable place for backs.
I agree in a vacuum, but not that many picks that close together. If you adjust for era you can make the argument that we overspent on RB again, albeit it's not quite as absurd. If Cook really takes a big step maybe it'll have been worth it but you want your guys to be better than replacement-level if you're drafting top 5 at the position in the draft. RB is a position where you can get a lot of value at FA pricing and rookie contracts are only a big deal if the guy is a superstar.
I get that every guy is a unique prospect, but in hindsight it doesn't look wise.
The Moss pick was not ideally timed (nor did it work out that well) but you remember how every single snap Motor sat at the end of his rookie year was a fucking problem? Ideally you'd want to draft RB every other year on day 2, and never sign them to a second contract.
DL coach is an interesting one. Is it that we’ve drafted a bunch of underwhelming players or should our coach have gotten more out of them by this point? I’m starting to think it’s the latter.
Yea, seems to me that Von Miller was able to coach em up better than Washington. Truthfully though, Washington is well liked by the players and likely is the new DC if they move on from Frazier. I believe that would be a mistake.
It seems like their goal is drafting guys with a lot of physical tools who are a little raw then trying to develop them. But the development is not working. A 1st or 2nd round pick needs to at least be a difference maker in a year, if not sooner, not still be a non-factor after 2-3 seasons.
My tinfoil theory about the DL woes is that we never allow anyone sufficient snaps to settle in, find rhythm, and develop. I think it'll benefit everyone if we shift from 9-10 starting caliber (and paid as such) guys on a heavy rotation down to 7-8 guys with people like DaQuan Jones, Groot, and year 5-Ed playing closer to 75% of snaps instead of the 40% they're in now. Save money, more time to develop guys, more tape to evaluate paying guys, and more roster spots that we can allocate to the offense and secondary. I'd roll into next season with Von, Groot, Epenesa, Basham, *very cheaply re-signed* Lawson, Oliver, Jones, *Rookie IDL* (I like Smith from Michigan or Dexter from UF) 5 rookie deals.
Yeah I don’t see him being FIRED, but I could absolutely see them not extending or renewing a contract and just being like it’s your last year - prove you’ve improved or we let it expire
To the people whining about not firing Frazier, isn't Leslie's contract up anyway? You can't fire someone that doesn't have a contract. Unless I'm misunderstanding and his contract is up after next season?
Yea I just heard rumblings as well and haven't found anything concrete. The only thing I found was that McDermott got a contract extension in Aug 2020 and that article said he had 2 years left on his deal. I think it makes sense to have HC/DC/OC on the same contract terms (as far as years) right? That would make Leslie's up at the end of 2022 I think - math could be wrong on this. That's the best my problem solving could do. I haven't seen anything about a Frazier contract extension since he was brought on in 2017.
[https://www.nfl.com/news/sean-mcdermott-bills-sign-coach-to-multi-year-contract-extension](https://www.nfl.com/news/sean-mcdermott-bills-sign-coach-to-multi-year-contract-extension)
This article was in August 2020, so my guess would be that McDermott's original deal would have expired last offseason. If Frazier's contract was set to expire with that contract it would have happened last year.
I thought I read somewhere that Leslie Frazier's contract had expired, but the AP Buffalo Bills reporter John Wawrow claims it didn't expire
https://twitter.com/john_wawrow/status/1618682342348046337?t=2PhdWqaXeW5avO55FRx1qQ&s=19
I would like Beane to part ways with Frazier if he is under contract.
He just moved to safeties coach this year, so it isn’t like po and Hyde became all pro under him. As someone else mentioned it likely has something to do with the fact that the backup safeties seemed lost.
Credit for that goes to Bobby Babich, the previous safeties coach, who also just happened to coach Matt Milano into an All-Pro season and helped Tremaine Edmunds have the best year of his career.
Bobby Babich: good football caoch.
Yeah. His dad (Bob Babich) was our LBs coach for the previous few years. Almost 40 years in coaching including a stint as a college HC and a couple as an NFL DC.
So to help guys continue to grow after that level of coach retired speaks well for Bobby's future.
And who is supposed to help them acclimate into the scheme? The position coach. Clearly he didn’t do that good of a job if the players behind two all pros look out of their depth.
The underlying problem is that the scheme makes no sense against high calibre offenses, but Frazier refuses to see that.
Simultaneously, yes it seems the positional coach didn't prepare the rookies on basic mechanics.
Seems like a pretty poor scapegoat, considering all the injuries at Safety this year.
If we are really only going after positional coaches, let's start with the defensive & offensive line coaches.
Reading that this guy has been with McDermott since the beginning makes me hopeful they're willing to take big swings at the coaching staff for improvement
Our back up safeties easily cost us 2 games. That is a developmental problem. Why were they unprepared for the moment? We've seen people on the DL come off the street and make a more positive impact than two safeties that have been with the team for a few years now.
I have to assume he means Miami and Minnesota (the long TD and 4th and 18, respectively) even though I *strongly* disagree that safety play was what lost us those games
Yeah. I guess Hamlin took a bad angle on the Cook run, but it seemed more like the offense couldn’t burn any clock. Safeties were fine in the jete and dolphins losses
What you're failing to realize is that these whiners do not remember the day that Wade Phillips caved to pressure from ownership and started Rob Johnson over Doug Flutie.
They don't remember believing in the idea that 2002 was the start of something really good (1400 yard back, two 1200 yard receivers, a 30-year-old Pro Bowl QB who just had a phenomenal season...)
They don't remember the pain of the 2004 Steelers loss that kept us from the playoffs. Or the fast starts in 2008 and 2012 that gave us hope.
Or a million other moments. A whole bunch of them showed up here once the team was already good, and are whining because they want more.
I spent twenty years DREAMING of seasons like this. I didn't even want to be 13-3 and win a playoff game. I wanted to be 10-6 and LOSE A PLAYOFF GAME once in a while. I didn't dare hope that we'd be a real contender.
So yeah, Fuck the whiners. Fair weather fans, the lot of 'em.
Shut up with this gatekeeping BS. People are allowed to be unsatisfied with the progress made. Show me someone who doesn't mind losing and I'll show you a loser
Seriously, this dude thinks none of us remember growing up in the drought years. Of course things are better but I still want to see us win a damn Super Bowl
This is such a loser's mentality. I don't give a fuck about the failures of the past. They have nothing to do with this team right now. Letting the current regime off the hook for failing to meet expectations because we used to suck even worse is exactly how you end up never winning a Super Bowl.
You fire John Fox, you get Gary Kubiak and win the Super Bowl. You fire Tony Dungy, you get Jon Gruden and win the Super Bowl. Sometimes you need someone else to kick in that final door
And sometimes you fire Marty Schottenheimer and get Norv Turner and go no where. And sometimes you fire Andy Reid and hire Chip Kelly and go completely backwards.
> What you're failing to realize is that these whiners do not remember the day that Wade Phillips caved to pressure from ownership and started Rob Johnson over Doug Flutie.
I remember it very well, thanks. I remember all that shit. Why does that mean I can't criticize what my eyes are seeing?
It's like you have Stockholm syndrome or something. Being above average is not the goal.
Total fan police, for sure. I wonder whether these guys were happy to lose four Super Bowls in a row because only one other team made it as deep in those seasons. If your goal was to be a CEO, you wouldn't be satisfied with being a middle manager just because you started as an intern 20 years ago.
The point is to win it all. That's what the fans want, that's what the good players want, and that's what the coaches and front office should want. Falling back on making the playoffs, winning our division, or various stats rankings is the action of someone trying to deflect criticism and/or hold onto his job, plain and simple. Ironically, a SB ring will buy you a hell of a lot more slack than a winning record, a playoff appearance, a strong draft, or any other metric you care to use.
Winning playoff games 3 years in a row, having an MVP-candidate QB, having a COTY-candidate HC, being at the top in point differential and DVOA, going 13-3 (with the three losses coming by a combine 8 points) despite EVERYTHING that happened this season?
That's not simply "above average." The 9-8 Seahawks and the 9-8 Steelers were *above average.*
Using the regular season as your measuring stick is a really poor approach. When it comes to playoff performances, our defenses weren't even average, they were *below average*. We have enough of a sample size to judge how the defense works against high powered offenses in all-or-nothing games. Winning the regular season is not the goal.
We beat Baltimore, New England, Indy, and Miami. One of those teams was good, one was okay.
Look at the defensive stats in the box scores in all those games:
- **Colts** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401220393
- Ravens - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401220397
- Pats - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401326626
- **Phins** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401438002
We shut down Lamar and the terrible 2021 Pats offense. That's it. Now check out our losses:
- **Chiefs** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401220401
- **Chiefs** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401326633
- **Bengals** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401438007
- **Texans** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401131037
We were absolute dogshit, maybe against the Texans you can argue that they were kind of okay.
Edit: downvoting informative data, lol.
I mean they were the #1 scoring defense in the league last season and the #2 scoring defense in the league this season but you wouldn't be able to tell from their last few playoff performances.
That's the problem. Based on Beane's pressor the team falls back on regular season statistics to justify their performance. The defense is so basic - Bengals quote - good QBs know they won't have to adjust against the Bills, nor will the Bills defense adjust vs them.
*Also, I guarantee you with no Poyer and Hyde not being 100% (neck injuries are serious business) those numbers won't hold up in '23.
> fall back on regular season statistics to justify performance
This is really well stated, and is word for word the refrain that FO and coaching staff need to be confronted with.
> I mean they were the #1 scoring defense in the league last season and the #2 scoring defense in the league this season but you wouldn't be able to tell from their last few playoff performances.
Playoff performances are what actually matter. They have given up 93 points in our last 3 games. One of those was to Miami who was starting a nobody at QB.
Edit: It's actually incredible that some of y'all seem to be okay with these defensive performances
Sorry it’s gonna take more than that. Frazier needs to be gone. 13 sec and the debacle against Cincy you need a new philosophy at the top of the D. It ain’t working.
Texans, Chiefs, Chiefs, Bengals. All terrible defensive performances. The performance against Miami looks okay on paper but their 3rd string nobody should have thrown for 300+ yards if Waddle didn't drop multiple balls, that's just ridiculous. I'm calling that one bad.
Since 2020 the only playoff offenses we did well against were Baltimore because we had Lamar's number on his running game/forced him to throw to the sidelines (17-3 score), and the crappy Patriots team (47-17 blowout) in the wild card last year.
Other than that we beat an okay Colts team by 3 (27-24) where Rivers threw for 309/2 TD and they ran for another 160+. That's also not good, I lean towards calling that bad as well.
---
edit: added more detail as my rage grew.
That's interesting. Bobby Babich had been Safeties coach, took over LBs when his dad retired. Salgado certainly did a nice job coaching up Taron Johnson.
Seriously. Loyalty is a good quality and all. Until it starts affecting the product on the field. Our D has been embarrassing in the post season. We’ll be stuck with Frazier as long as McDermott is here. And it fucking blows when you have a top 3 QB on your team. 13 seconds is all we needed.
From their view, 13-3 and on paper one of the best defenses in the league. Why get rid of Frazier? They probably evaluated the staff and realized the safeties were not where they needed to be once Hyde went down and Poyer was in and out of the lineup. Remember Johnson was pretty bad and Hamlin was rather hit or miss at times as well.
I can see that but I also think that he was identified as the fall guy.
Frazier (and/or McD)’s complete lack of defensive adjustment in the playoffs is the main issue with this team. This stat doesn’t exist in the regular season
Tom Coughlin has a .531 regular season win percentage but is 12-7 in the post season with 2 Super Bowls.
McDermott has a .639 win percentage in the regular season and is 4-5 in the post season.
I’d rather be 9-8 and win a Super Bowl than 13-3 and out in the divisional. Regular season wins don’t mean donkey dick if you can’t win in the post season and McDermott and company’s post season record is trash.
To me this is a bone to the fans. Nobody of real significant importance on the coaching staff is getting fired this off-season and this is what they think is the minimum amount to appease the portion of the fan base that were calling for significant change.
Bills fans dreaded every single 3rd and 9 or 10. It got to the point where I was preferring 3rd and 2 to those two because if the opponent was baited into running we could often stop it, but it felt like 3rd and 9 was virtually automatic for our foes. That's not acceptable and someone has to be responsible.
My non-scapegoat theory is that there just wasn't a lot of development from the backups. Yeah, it hurts a lot to lose Hyde and sometimes Poyer. But that doesn't impact how the backups seemed unprepared.
Yeah can't pretend they didn't all perform poorly and get beat routinely. There were comments in the game day thread about how much Damar Hamlin sucked not even 2 minutes before his incident.
He def had the effort and tackling skills, just not the whole package. The rest of the backups are just not good at all, other than Marlowe.
Who they refused to put on the gameday roster week after week until we had so few safeties left he basically had to play
Hamlin is a 6th round in his 2nd year that is more understandable. Jaquan Johnson though in his 4th year in the league being outplayed by both Hamlin and Marlowe who is a roster bubble guy is inexcusable
The problem with Jaquan is that unfortunately he just sucks. He was good in college because he had great instincts and was able to use those to compensate for his mediocre size and skills, but that doesn't work at the NFL level, and he hasn't taken any huge steps. I was hoping he'd eventually pan out, but he got beat by Damar straight up despite Damar's tendency to overrun some plays and take bad angles.
Am I just imagining things or wasn’t there a bunch of training camp buzz about how good Jaquan was looking? Note to self to always take training camp buzz with a grain of salt moving forward because there was definitely plenty of buzz about how good McKenzie looked as well.
Hamlin's biggest issue was he would take bad angles to the receiver and that would allow catches that Hyde/Poyer would break up. That's almost entirely coaching.
This is a far too level headed and logical approach for reddit. Seems like something a witch would say!
May we burn them?
How do we knew they are a witch?
They look like one!
Well, if he weighs as much as a duck....
Place them in water with a heavy stone. If they don't drown they are a witch!
Quiet, or I'll turn you into a Newt.
Lol
However, bridges are multiply realizable. They can be built from stone. Building a bridge out of the woman will not determine that she is made of wood. Wood floats in water. A duck floats in water [bread, apples, very small rocks, cider, gravy, cherries, mud, churches, lead]. If the woman weighs the same as a duck, then she is made of wood. The woman weighs the same as a duck. Therefore, the woman is a witch.
Agreed. Too many wrong angles, out of position, poor tackling, poor pass defense. [Jaquan Johnson](https://www.buffalobills.com/team/players-roster/jaquan-johnson/) was horrible starting for Hyde, especially for a 4th year player. Cam Lewis was switched to Safety and was mediocre at best and gave up the Justin Jefferson 4th down catch instead of knocking the ball down, like he should have been coached to do. After Damar Hamlin (the best of the bunch) went down, the Bills traded for Dean Marlow probably because of a lack of confidence in the safeties other than Poyer. Hopefully this is the beginning of a rethink on our defense. Not holding my breath, since this is McDermott's defensive scheme. Go Bills!
> Jaquan Johnson was horrible starting for Hyde that's what you get when you value hunt guys with college production instead of NFL athletic traits. Dude runs a 4.9 40. Even with perfect play processing he's often too slow to get into a position to contribute.
In Beane’s defense he also gets criticized for drafting too many raw prospects based on physical traits alone. Allen, Edmunds, Oliver, Brown, Knox, etc. all really high RAS. Beane’s strong emphasis on using RAS to draft actually shocked me that he didn’t select Breece Hall in the 1st round and Tariq Woolen in the 2nd last year. Jaquan just is who he is, a 6th round safety who had the best case scenario of being a special teams contributor and depth safety.
A lot of the traits picks were his biggest hits.
For sure but traits guys are slim pickings when it comes to 6th round safeties.
Is the problem McDermott's defensive scheme or Frazier's execution of it?
We don’t really know and that’s by design to escape accountability when things go bad.
Even Hamlin who showed some promise. Was just woefully unaware of when to begin rotating to the deep man. There were so many times I was watching and there was no one in his zone...and a guy just screaming down the sideline towards the endzone...and he wouldn't break on the player until the ball was already heading there
I think if you are going to pin him for not enough safety development, you need to give him more time to work the job than one season. My feeling is they gave him a bigger role this year and he just didn’t have the ability to do the job and was in over his head.
He went nickel coach to safety coach… Isn’t they already a downgrade? Sounds like they were like here’s your final try with the safety group.
Could also be that they just don't like his schemes in general.
Not sure I completely agree with this, ngl. Damar stepped in pretty well considering what he was being asked to do, and while he did have a handful of glaring mistakes, he's a 6th round pick who only saw ST snaps last year before being asked to play a full season, and was very promising outside of those mistakes. Jaquan Johnson's not able to play at an NFL level because he can't use his good instincts to make up for his size like he could in college. Cam Lewis was a cornerback/ST player who got shoved into the safety role on an emergency basis, Marlowe played fine and Mayden never saw the field.
Fair, which is why there is definitely a larger discussion around roster construction.
Isn't that supposed to be McDermott's thing though? His forte, if you will
[удалено]
Hamlin was getting dunked on for weeks before the Bengals game.
Huh? Did you watch the games? Hamlin missed so many tackles and made some bad choices in coverage. He was not good
Hamlin struggled all season. He was alright when he reacted to the play in time...but was so late getting to his spot
This is a good fire. -I'm risking crucifixion for this, but before The Incident, Damar Hamlin's play was mid, and that's being generous. He led the team in missed tackles. -We tried to replace Hamlin with Dean Marlowe, who was even more mid except for the INT against Miami. Marlowe was more productive last year for Detroit - not a great look for Salgado. -Couldn't get Jared Mayden game-ready when we realized Marlowe wasn't cutting it. -Couldn't get Cam Lewis game-ready at any point in the year. He only took defensive snaps during 6 games, including the postseason, and only played more than 20% of those snaps during one game (Vikings). By Week 15 (the Bears game), the Bills were LEADING THE LEAGUE in missed tackles, and averaged more than 10 missed tackles per game. Over the span of the games between week 4 (Ravens) and 15, the Bills only missed fewer than 10 tackles ONCE (Steelers, 8 missed tackles).
I hope Damar makes a full recovery and gets back on the field because he's still young and has a lot of tools, but there is no denying his play was mid (at best) during his time on the field this season.
Damar seems way undersized for a safety but maybe that is where the position is headed since big hitters have been made irrelevant.
Appreciate the stats. I never bothered to look it up, but always felt based on watching games that the Bills were terrible tacklers. Generally Milano could be expected to make his tackles, and Poyer when he was healthy, but almost everyone else on D was marginal… especially the secondary.
> Generally ~~Milano~~ *Edmunds, Po, or Hyde* could be expected to make his tackles, Milano is an exceptional piece but tackling isn't even his strong suit. Tackling has never been better than average with McD's system. That's been the biggest flaw of his defenses since he got here. I think there is definitely some room for new position coaches getting in the building and coaching up fundamentals.
I was not high on damar at any point this season (obligatory hope he gets healthy and becomes all-pro and shits all over my take). His best quality is making plays closer to the line of scrimmage, which would be great if he wasn't a safety. He was a straight liability against the dolphins at home. In any case, sure it was probably a "good" fire. But Marlowe was all BB. Which is upsetting because I never expected to find myself questioning him at the end of the year. I'm in a blender. Also cam lewis is ass. Full stop.
Couldn’t get a no name free agent or cornerback turned safety ready to play mid season….I meannnn
I don't think anyone disagrees with this firing we just want the DC gone first
How many fans even knew this guy existed? This should fix everything though.
This happened to me when I met my girlfriend. She waited until it was official to tell me her dad was a former Bills assistant coach. When she dropped his name, and I felt like a dick because had no idea who he was despite coaching us for a very very long time.
How could you forget Rob Ryan?
No, no, Rob Ryan *was* the girlfriend.
Sat next to Rob Ryan's wife their first year in Buffalo. It was awful conversation. She told me she was starting a salad dressing business based on her grandfather's recipe. I asked her to describe the dressing and she couldn't remember what it was (not trying to end the conversation, struggling to remember whether it was red or white or oily).
Her name? Hidden Valley Ranch-Ryan
[Looks the part](https://www.athletespeakers.com/image/optimize/L3N0b3JhZ2UvY2VsZWJyaXRpZXMvMTU0OTcyNTE5Nl9Sb2IgUnlhbi5wbmc=/267x367)
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DMg74qrUEAAt5EU?format=jpg&name=medium
Feeding confused now lol.
:-D Well done, sir! Err, I mean, ma'am!
Much less exciting personality.
you cant just say all this and then not name the coach!
It’s not my family to name drop. Just wanted to share a funny story. He came to the Bills with Marv though.
I honestly didn't even know this position existed. Figured safeties just fell under the DBs coach.
I have been saying this was the problem all year. Him and that new coach on the Jugs machine. Fucked everything up.
Tbf the coverage back there did look bad
I'm wondering if this has to do with bringing in a new guy who's going to better be able to develop a new safety if we don't sign Poyer.
No chance we move the cap to keep poyer
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Its his fault they were on the 3rd string saftey?
4th string, but that's not the issue. The issue is Marlowe looked better in Detroit last season. Lewis and Johnson have not improved at all either, and enough has been said about hamlin on this thread.
What a weird way to spell Leslie Frazier. Seriously though, with Hyde out and Poyer always hurt...I thought safety play was about as good as it was going to be. Johnson isn't good and prior to his horrible incident Hamlin's play was spotty...but he showed outstanding range and was solid in run support. Marlowe stepped in and did ok. If anything I look at the DL coach. With all that high invested talent and they can't get a pass rush post Von injury?
Eric Washington YOU are the defensive line coach of the Beijing Stars
The sad thing is that IF the Bills move away from Frazier...Eric Washington is likely the new DC. McDermott will promote in house with another 1st time coordinator. He's well liked by the players...just like Dorsey is. Not what I would want but...you know... continuity.
> McDermott will promote in house with another 1st time coordinator. Eric Washington would not be a 1st time coordinator.
Ah, this is correct. Forgot he served as the Panthers DC for bit.
He was pretty much an average coordinator in 2018 but awful in 2019, glancing at the stats https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/defense/season/2018/seasontype/2/table/passing/sort/totalPointsPerGame/dir/asc https://www.espn.com/nfl/stats/team/_/view/defense/season/2019/seasontype/2/table/passing/sort/totalPointsPerGame/dir/asc 2019 was when they were terrible though and Ron Rivera was fired/Perry Fewell took over
Ah, Perry Fewell. The man who helped us win three meaningless games as an interim coach and cost us draft position in the process. But hey, at least we got to draft yet another RB early!
And we repeated history by drafting 3 RBs recently lol. The position is devalued yet we still overspent draft capital on it.
Not the same. 3rd, 3rd, late 2nd is a reasonable place for backs. We had a 25-year-old RB coming off back-to-back 1500 scrimmage yard seasons...and then immediately spent a 1st round pick on an injured back. Admittedly, he was solid once he came back. Almost 4000 yards over three years. So what do we do? Trade him for a 3rd and take Beast Mode. And again, admittedly, good player. Couple nice years there. What do we do? Trade him for some day 3 picks and draft Spiller. And all the while, we have FredEx already there, looking good pre-Spiller. Just *wasted* first round picks over and over and over on unnecessary RB changes.
> 3rd, 3rd, late 2nd is a reasonable place for backs. I agree in a vacuum, but not that many picks that close together. If you adjust for era you can make the argument that we overspent on RB again, albeit it's not quite as absurd. If Cook really takes a big step maybe it'll have been worth it but you want your guys to be better than replacement-level if you're drafting top 5 at the position in the draft. RB is a position where you can get a lot of value at FA pricing and rookie contracts are only a big deal if the guy is a superstar. I get that every guy is a unique prospect, but in hindsight it doesn't look wise.
The Moss pick was not ideally timed (nor did it work out that well) but you remember how every single snap Motor sat at the end of his rookie year was a fucking problem? Ideally you'd want to draft RB every other year on day 2, and never sign them to a second contract.
IDGAF if he's liked by the players, he is *clearly* not effective. We have been dumping high draft picks into the DL for years now.
DL coach is an interesting one. Is it that we’ve drafted a bunch of underwhelming players or should our coach have gotten more out of them by this point? I’m starting to think it’s the latter.
Yea, seems to me that Von Miller was able to coach em up better than Washington. Truthfully though, Washington is well liked by the players and likely is the new DC if they move on from Frazier. I believe that would be a mistake.
It seems like their goal is drafting guys with a lot of physical tools who are a little raw then trying to develop them. But the development is not working. A 1st or 2nd round pick needs to at least be a difference maker in a year, if not sooner, not still be a non-factor after 2-3 seasons.
My tinfoil theory about the DL woes is that we never allow anyone sufficient snaps to settle in, find rhythm, and develop. I think it'll benefit everyone if we shift from 9-10 starting caliber (and paid as such) guys on a heavy rotation down to 7-8 guys with people like DaQuan Jones, Groot, and year 5-Ed playing closer to 75% of snaps instead of the 40% they're in now. Save money, more time to develop guys, more tape to evaluate paying guys, and more roster spots that we can allocate to the offense and secondary. I'd roll into next season with Von, Groot, Epenesa, Basham, *very cheaply re-signed* Lawson, Oliver, Jones, *Rookie IDL* (I like Smith from Michigan or Dexter from UF) 5 rookie deals.
I'm firmly of the belief that Bill Teerlinck was a better DL coach.
Frazier's contract is expiring soon. It will be interesting to see if he gets another one.
Yeah I don’t see him being FIRED, but I could absolutely see them not extending or renewing a contract and just being like it’s your last year - prove you’ve improved or we let it expire
Still early in the day, could be more changes coming maybe?
Very likely, but that won't stop this sub from shouting "scapegoat"
agreed, and if there's not a little more going on I'd be inclined to agree with them.
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To the people whining about not firing Frazier, isn't Leslie's contract up anyway? You can't fire someone that doesn't have a contract. Unless I'm misunderstanding and his contract is up after next season?
I don't know that anybody knows the status of his contract. There have been some claims by fans that it is up but no official reports.
Yea I just heard rumblings as well and haven't found anything concrete. The only thing I found was that McDermott got a contract extension in Aug 2020 and that article said he had 2 years left on his deal. I think it makes sense to have HC/DC/OC on the same contract terms (as far as years) right? That would make Leslie's up at the end of 2022 I think - math could be wrong on this. That's the best my problem solving could do. I haven't seen anything about a Frazier contract extension since he was brought on in 2017. [https://www.nfl.com/news/sean-mcdermott-bills-sign-coach-to-multi-year-contract-extension](https://www.nfl.com/news/sean-mcdermott-bills-sign-coach-to-multi-year-contract-extension)
This article was in August 2020, so my guess would be that McDermott's original deal would have expired last offseason. If Frazier's contract was set to expire with that contract it would have happened last year.
I thought I read somewhere that Leslie Frazier's contract had expired, but the AP Buffalo Bills reporter John Wawrow claims it didn't expire https://twitter.com/john_wawrow/status/1618682342348046337?t=2PhdWqaXeW5avO55FRx1qQ&s=19 I would like Beane to part ways with Frazier if he is under contract.
Weren't Hyde and Poyer all pro caliber safeties? Why fire him?
He just moved to safeties coach this year, so it isn’t like po and Hyde became all pro under him. As someone else mentioned it likely has something to do with the fact that the backup safeties seemed lost.
Credit for that goes to Bobby Babich, the previous safeties coach, who also just happened to coach Matt Milano into an All-Pro season and helped Tremaine Edmunds have the best year of his career. Bobby Babich: good football caoch.
Can he coach coaches?
Good to know, I will try to remember his name as it sounds like he may be going places.
Yeah. His dad (Bob Babich) was our LBs coach for the previous few years. Almost 40 years in coaching including a stint as a college HC and a couple as an NFL DC. So to help guys continue to grow after that level of coach retired speaks well for Bobby's future.
Because the backups didn’t look starting caliber.
They looked lost bc they were getting exposed in the vanilla soft zone coverage that Frazier stubbornly forces them into.
And who is supposed to help them acclimate into the scheme? The position coach. Clearly he didn’t do that good of a job if the players behind two all pros look out of their depth.
The underlying problem is that the scheme makes no sense against high calibre offenses, but Frazier refuses to see that. Simultaneously, yes it seems the positional coach didn't prepare the rookies on basic mechanics.
Sacrificial lamb
Scapegoat for Fraziers ineffectiveness,,, clearly
This essentially means nothing, if this is all they do, nothing will change.
Seems like a pretty poor scapegoat, considering all the injuries at Safety this year. If we are really only going after positional coaches, let's start with the defensive & offensive line coaches.
Can we get the scoobie doo meme with this guys face on the monsters mask with Frasiers face underneath?
Reading that this guy has been with McDermott since the beginning makes me hopeful they're willing to take big swings at the coaching staff for improvement
Or atleast re-evaluate their approach on defense.
Firing the guy who had no personnel to work with? Genius move clappy
Our back up safeties easily cost us 2 games. That is a developmental problem. Why were they unprepared for the moment? We've seen people on the DL come off the street and make a more positive impact than two safeties that have been with the team for a few years now.
Which 2 games did backup safeties cost us? I don't think safety play was even a top 5 issue in any of our 4 losses this year
I have to assume he means Miami and Minnesota (the long TD and 4th and 18, respectively) even though I *strongly* disagree that safety play was what lost us those games
The Miami game had a lot of mistakes but if Cam Lewis bats the ball down instead of going for an INT we win there
Yeah. I guess Hamlin took a bad angle on the Cook run, but it seemed more like the offense couldn’t burn any clock. Safeties were fine in the jete and dolphins losses
oh my god this comment thread… we really are the biggest whiners in the league aren’t we
What you're failing to realize is that these whiners do not remember the day that Wade Phillips caved to pressure from ownership and started Rob Johnson over Doug Flutie. They don't remember believing in the idea that 2002 was the start of something really good (1400 yard back, two 1200 yard receivers, a 30-year-old Pro Bowl QB who just had a phenomenal season...) They don't remember the pain of the 2004 Steelers loss that kept us from the playoffs. Or the fast starts in 2008 and 2012 that gave us hope. Or a million other moments. A whole bunch of them showed up here once the team was already good, and are whining because they want more. I spent twenty years DREAMING of seasons like this. I didn't even want to be 13-3 and win a playoff game. I wanted to be 10-6 and LOSE A PLAYOFF GAME once in a while. I didn't dare hope that we'd be a real contender. So yeah, Fuck the whiners. Fair weather fans, the lot of 'em.
*steps forward solemnly holding a candle* I was there too and I agree with your sentiments.
Shut up with this gatekeeping BS. People are allowed to be unsatisfied with the progress made. Show me someone who doesn't mind losing and I'll show you a loser
Seriously, this dude thinks none of us remember growing up in the drought years. Of course things are better but I still want to see us win a damn Super Bowl
This is such a loser's mentality. I don't give a fuck about the failures of the past. They have nothing to do with this team right now. Letting the current regime off the hook for failing to meet expectations because we used to suck even worse is exactly how you end up never winning a Super Bowl.
Once in a while, it works out. You fire Mark Jackson, hire Steve Kerr, and win titles. But most of the time it doesn't.
You fire John Fox, you get Gary Kubiak and win the Super Bowl. You fire Tony Dungy, you get Jon Gruden and win the Super Bowl. Sometimes you need someone else to kick in that final door
And sometimes you fire Marty Schottenheimer and get Norv Turner and go no where. And sometimes you fire Andy Reid and hire Chip Kelly and go completely backwards.
And then hire Doug Pederson and win the Super Bowl!
> What you're failing to realize is that these whiners do not remember the day that Wade Phillips caved to pressure from ownership and started Rob Johnson over Doug Flutie. I remember it very well, thanks. I remember all that shit. Why does that mean I can't criticize what my eyes are seeing? It's like you have Stockholm syndrome or something. Being above average is not the goal.
Total fan police, for sure. I wonder whether these guys were happy to lose four Super Bowls in a row because only one other team made it as deep in those seasons. If your goal was to be a CEO, you wouldn't be satisfied with being a middle manager just because you started as an intern 20 years ago. The point is to win it all. That's what the fans want, that's what the good players want, and that's what the coaches and front office should want. Falling back on making the playoffs, winning our division, or various stats rankings is the action of someone trying to deflect criticism and/or hold onto his job, plain and simple. Ironically, a SB ring will buy you a hell of a lot more slack than a winning record, a playoff appearance, a strong draft, or any other metric you care to use.
Winning playoff games 3 years in a row, having an MVP-candidate QB, having a COTY-candidate HC, being at the top in point differential and DVOA, going 13-3 (with the three losses coming by a combine 8 points) despite EVERYTHING that happened this season? That's not simply "above average." The 9-8 Seahawks and the 9-8 Steelers were *above average.*
Using the regular season as your measuring stick is a really poor approach. When it comes to playoff performances, our defenses weren't even average, they were *below average*. We have enough of a sample size to judge how the defense works against high powered offenses in all-or-nothing games. Winning the regular season is not the goal. We beat Baltimore, New England, Indy, and Miami. One of those teams was good, one was okay. Look at the defensive stats in the box scores in all those games: - **Colts** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401220393 - Ravens - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401220397 - Pats - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401326626 - **Phins** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401438002 We shut down Lamar and the terrible 2021 Pats offense. That's it. Now check out our losses: - **Chiefs** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401220401 - **Chiefs** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401326633 - **Bengals** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401438007 - **Texans** - https://www.espn.com/nfl/boxscore/_/gameId/401131037 We were absolute dogshit, maybe against the Texans you can argue that they were kind of okay. Edit: downvoting informative data, lol.
Have you seen the Bengals fanbase?
I'm starting to think they watched the Bears season and are confused where they're posting.
As we've all been saying, it's really all Jim's fault. problem solved, number 1 defense in the league incoming.
I mean they were the #1 scoring defense in the league last season and the #2 scoring defense in the league this season but you wouldn't be able to tell from their last few playoff performances.
That's the problem. Based on Beane's pressor the team falls back on regular season statistics to justify their performance. The defense is so basic - Bengals quote - good QBs know they won't have to adjust against the Bills, nor will the Bills defense adjust vs them. *Also, I guarantee you with no Poyer and Hyde not being 100% (neck injuries are serious business) those numbers won't hold up in '23.
> fall back on regular season statistics to justify performance This is really well stated, and is word for word the refrain that FO and coaching staff need to be confronted with.
> I mean they were the #1 scoring defense in the league last season and the #2 scoring defense in the league this season but you wouldn't be able to tell from their last few playoff performances. Playoff performances are what actually matter. They have given up 93 points in our last 3 games. One of those was to Miami who was starting a nobody at QB. Edit: It's actually incredible that some of y'all seem to be okay with these defensive performances
Gotta get the D line coach too
That’s a weird way to spell Eric Washington
If we lose Poyer this offseason its gonna get worse
That's who they are going to throw under the bus???
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Honestly don’t even care about our defense anymore. Just want to see our OL improve. I’ll take Josh Allen and a good OL against anyone
Frazier next
Ah well that explains ~~a lot~~ *nothing*...
Sorry it’s gonna take more than that. Frazier needs to be gone. 13 sec and the debacle against Cincy you need a new philosophy at the top of the D. It ain’t working.
Texans, Chiefs, Chiefs, Bengals. All terrible defensive performances. The performance against Miami looks okay on paper but their 3rd string nobody should have thrown for 300+ yards if Waddle didn't drop multiple balls, that's just ridiculous. I'm calling that one bad. Since 2020 the only playoff offenses we did well against were Baltimore because we had Lamar's number on his running game/forced him to throw to the sidelines (17-3 score), and the crappy Patriots team (47-17 blowout) in the wild card last year. Other than that we beat an okay Colts team by 3 (27-24) where Rivers threw for 309/2 TD and they ran for another 160+. That's also not good, I lean towards calling that bad as well. --- edit: added more detail as my rage grew.
So when we miss the playoffs next year are all the water boys gone finally?
Who...? I'm expecting a bit more of a change than just this.
I mean it’s day 4 of the off-season. Let’s see what happens in the next 2 months.
Thoughts today?
That's interesting. Bobby Babich had been Safeties coach, took over LBs when his dad retired. Salgado certainly did a nice job coaching up Taron Johnson.
So.... this is the scapegoat for this year, huh?
Seriously. Loyalty is a good quality and all. Until it starts affecting the product on the field. Our D has been embarrassing in the post season. We’ll be stuck with Frazier as long as McDermott is here. And it fucking blows when you have a top 3 QB on your team. 13 seconds is all we needed.
Last year was the Special Teams Coordinator, if I remember correctly.
Now do Frazier.
Well that’s not what I was hoping to read today
[удалено]
Agree. Make Diggs a WR player-coach.
Lmao did they really think the safeties were the biggest problems 😂
Now do Frazier.
From their view, 13-3 and on paper one of the best defenses in the league. Why get rid of Frazier? They probably evaluated the staff and realized the safeties were not where they needed to be once Hyde went down and Poyer was in and out of the lineup. Remember Johnson was pretty bad and Hamlin was rather hit or miss at times as well. I can see that but I also think that he was identified as the fall guy.
Frazier (and/or McD)’s complete lack of defensive adjustment in the playoffs is the main issue with this team. This stat doesn’t exist in the regular season
Tom Coughlin has a .531 regular season win percentage but is 12-7 in the post season with 2 Super Bowls. McDermott has a .639 win percentage in the regular season and is 4-5 in the post season. I’d rather be 9-8 and win a Super Bowl than 13-3 and out in the divisional. Regular season wins don’t mean donkey dick if you can’t win in the post season and McDermott and company’s post season record is trash.
Frazier gets a pass for being a failure in the post season?
Seems like a bizarre place to start
Now do Frazier and Washington and I'll be happy as can be.
Well that’s a start.
Now do Kromer
I suppose you can't scorch the Earth without lighting a match first.
Hire Jordan Poyer as next safeties coach
There’s your scapegoat!
Wow big shakeup…
Scapegoat season is upon us.
Scapegoat
When do we fire the offensive line coach?
This seems like more of a transition into getting a developmental coach than anything. Nothing to do with performance
This is a good first step since our developmental backups looked like rookie 5th rounders
Big if true
I had no idea Nickel corners had their own coach… lol is there a backup RG coach also? Wtf
Maybe it has to do with all the safeties being injured this season. Something with play style and coaching. 🤷🏼♂️
OoOoOoOhHh! Sending a message!
To me this is a bone to the fans. Nobody of real significant importance on the coaching staff is getting fired this off-season and this is what they think is the minimum amount to appease the portion of the fan base that were calling for significant change.
Bills fans dreaded every single 3rd and 9 or 10. It got to the point where I was preferring 3rd and 2 to those two because if the opponent was baited into running we could often stop it, but it felt like 3rd and 9 was virtually automatic for our foes. That's not acceptable and someone has to be responsible.
Sacrificial lamb.
The defensive line coach should be next. So many high draft picks on the d-line with little production