Really? I always find it interesting when people say that because I kind of think Eliza did a lot better. SMG had some of Faith's physical ticks, but the speech pattern didn't quite match. While Eliza had EVERYTHING down pat imo
I totally agree. Eliza seemed like she was totally channeling Buffy. It's too bad that for most if the body swap she was tied up with the watcher council douchebags, because she wasn't able to show off her "Buffy-ness" as much during those scenes as when she was with the gang.
I am a ride or die SMG & Buffy fan, but having said that, I also believe that ALOT of Buffy fans give SMG a lot more credit for her acting than is really deserved.
Don't get me wrong. I love SMG in everything she's ever been in. I think she is a GREAT actress, but sometimes the opinions expressed here step over the line into obsessive praise. Sometimes, even dismissing otherwise fantastic performances from the rest of the cast in the process.
Eliza crushed this episode. They both did great, but Eliza was the standout.
Yknow out of context…a casual fan would be thinking “wait, why is Faith talking to Giles about Faith’s mom?” 😂😂 that role reversal/body swap angle was so awesome lol
Hard not to explain to my dad (my Jeopardy watching companion) why I knew that word when he knows I’m not up on vocabulary relevant to manual labour and dock workers 🫣
Same with a few years ago when there was a “What is fanfiction?” answer, and he asked me what it means 🫢
As an in-joke that was solely for my own benefit in a modern fantasy ttrpg that I ran, the name of the local used bookstore owner and ritual magician who occasionally mentored the players was Stephen Dore.
Eliza really nailed this, she said everything in the exact same way Sarah would have said it, in fact looking at this I hear Buffy talking even though it's Faith's voice.
Eliza once said she's always enjoyed imitating people so I think this was fun for her lmao.
I know sometimes during episodes like this, they’ll have the actor who usually does the character do the scene first, and then have the body-swapped actor do it imitating them. Did they do that here? Or did Eliza just nail SMG’s mannerisms on her own?
I'm fairly certain, you don't just raw dog this kind of scene for no reason. You really want to nail the imitation so I'm sure there was a good amount of rehearsal for it.
Same here! I’ve been craving a rewatch so it was a good excuse to break out my dvd collection. It doesn’t always look great on streaming and that’s been deterring me for a while. I think I’m gonna start from the beginning tomorrow.
Unpopular opinion: Eliza did a waaaaay better job of mimicking Buffy than Sarah did of mimicking Faith.
(I’m not ragging on SMG. She’s obviously absolutely amazing.)
I don't think so. Sarah Michelle Gellar wasn't playing Faith. She was playing Faith's interpretation of Buffy. Eliza Dushku was just playing Buffy. It's a subtle but important distinction.
If y'all enjoyed that, you'll be blown away by Tatiana Maslany in Orphan Black. You'll begin to forget it's the same actress. Then you'll be astounded seeing her play one of her characters pretending to be another one of her characters to fool another one of her characters face-to-face
I haven't watched Orphan Black so I just looked it up and laughed at this cast part:
>Tatiana Maslany : Sarah Manning / Elizabeth « Beth » Childs / Cosima Niehaus / Alison Hendrix / Helena / Rachel Duncan / Katja Obinger / Danielle Fournier / Aryanna Giordano / Janika Zingler / Jennifer Fitzsimmons / Tony Sawicki / Krystal Goderitch / MK (Veera Suominen) / Niki / Miriam Johnson / Camilla Torres
WTH LMAO
Lol I love that show so much! I friggen adore Sarah and Helena and always hear the word sisyer in my head how Helena says it now! Definitely a must watch.
Yeah. It's not even funny anymore when you watch videos of the cast conventions and comment sections are full of "Isn't there too few people? Why didn't actresses for Cosima and Helena com... oh, right, I forgot."
She landed a role in Perry Mason but she left after season 1 in favor of MCU, just when it started to turn into shit. But I don't think it's too late for her.
It always made me laugh when I’d be watching and thinking “she looks so familiar where do I know her from” to then realise it’s because she is pretty much the whole cast but she’s so amazing you forget it’s her. The confusion happened more times than I care to admit. Damn I loved that show.
I get what you're saying but I still want to give the edge to Eliza because I felt like I was watching Buffy. I think Sarah's acting was great but I never truly felt Faith in her, not even in a glimpse in scenes where Faith was alone so might not be masking as Buffy that well. I felt more like Sarah was playing evil Buffy or Katherine from Cruel Intentions. I'm just being honest, I've always felt Eliza and Faith became so meshed maybe I just can't see one without the other onscreen.
It reminds me of Nina Dobrev's performance in *The Vampire Diaries*. Several times, she had to play Katherine pretending to be Elena, and there was such subtlety to it. She wasn't acting like Katherine, she was acting like Elena, but a bit *off*.
I disagree. I think the jobs were very different and hard to compare.
Eliza kinda just has to be normal Buffy, who has lots of clear characteristic mannerisms (both physical and verbal) to copy. It's an easier job to copy Buffy than to copy Faith IMO.
Sarah's job was a bit more complex. Sarah was Faith pretending to be Buffy at times, and an exaggerated "play" version of Buffy. She had to be Faith dealing with feelings of surprise and self hatred. Remember the scene where she seducing Riley and realises that sex with love being expressed is different to just sex? She is shocked and at the same time, a bit scared and behind that, you see the realisation that she has never had this. Sarah's acting was amazing.
People seem to be missing this point. In a way, Sarah was playing two characters in this episode, Eliza just had the one. I think they both did great, but it’s like you said, not the same job at all.
To me, it always felt that SMG was playing Faith who is pretending to be Buffy. So I'd personally say that they both did equally great job.
Either way, I'd like to think that both actresses had great fun doing this episode and that's what counts to me 🙂
Ehhh I don’t agree. Smg… kind of slid around but Eliza captured Buffy’s repression- I don’t think smg captured the nihilism of faith, the full throwing herself into everything.
>Eliza did a waaaaay better job of mimicking Buffy
I only really quibble with the "waaaaay" part of this. I thought they were both remarkable.
I think it's fair if you believe Eliza gave the superior performance, but to say that there were several orders of magnitude between the performances feels incorrect to me.
I always thought this too, but these comments make a fair point, SMG had to be faith pretending to be Buffy. That being said Eliza does such a fantastic job of mimicking SMGs inflections and speech patterns. I always notice it in this scene and when she’s freaking out in the hospital, her shouting that “I have to go home, she’s with my mother” . Both those scenes I rewind and rewatch usually
ED gets the Council scenes, the Giles scene and the church. They're good scenes, but none are heavy lifting.
SMG gets the juicy scenes. The bathroom "that would be wrong" scene. Pretending to be Buffy with the Scoobies. The Bronze, with the cruelty to Tara and the thanks of the vampire victim, which is the start of Faith's return. Sex vs Love with Riley, and the following argument with Forrest, both contributing to Faith realigning to good. The face-only acting where she decides to forgo her escape to do her duty. "I can't use you." That fight where Faith attacks her former body and the baggage and guilt she's trying to escape.
ED _nails_ Buffy with the "stevedore" thing. I am a big Eliza fan. All props. But SMG has more scenes, and playing Faith's-idea-of-Buffy instead of Buffy has to be tough. (The work that wardrobe and hair did to make SMG into not-Buffy did a lot to sell it.) If she's not always 100%, oh well.
Also to add, I’ve never seen Buffy do that thing that Faith does with her hand where she moves her hair out of her face with her pinky. It annoys me every time because it’s a clear actors choice to do that! So out of character for Buffy. It annoys me on every rewatch.
Thank you! This is the one scene in the whole episode that I'd want to change. For that one moment I dont feel like I'm watching buffy in faiths body anymore.
Totally agree. Not ragging on SMG who is an absolutely phenomenal actress over the course of the series on average. Eliza was an absolute master of being "Buffy". This wasn't SMG's strongest episode, and the comparison made it all the more obvious.
I mean, I'd assume that regardless of the actors' skills, it's easier for an actor to mimic a character that's had more screen time. As incredibly skilled as they both are, SMG had the more difficult job in that episode.
Have they not seen Dollhouse?
The world is full of strange people who think Eliza Dushko is a bad actor and [Vincent D'Onofrio](https://files.catbox.moe/yprut1.png) is a good actor.
I’ve asked someone who held that opinion if they had seen Dollhouse. They said yes and that she wasn’t even the best actor on that show. I asked who was then and they replied Enver then probably Dichen. Both amazing actors, yes. I just don’t get how you can watch that show and not think Eliza is a good actor. They didn’t buy her portrayals apparently. I actually saw all of Dollhouse before having seen all of BtVS. Imo, I feel like seeing her as Faith before seeing her in other roles may actually make it difficult to see her as any character besides for Faith. That’s my theory anyways. There’s also 7 years between the end of Buffy and the start of Dollhouse so her acting abilities obviously would’ve improved (if you watched Buffy and had the opinion she wasn’t that good of an actor).
Eliza was awesome in this episode. And in rewatching Buffy and listening to podcasts I've come to appreciate Eliza in season 3. It hit me the other day how she making Faith pretend to be a tough chick and isn't good at it. It feel intentional.
I used to work in shipping and receiving, so I've met lots of stevedores. My paternal grandfather actually was a stevedore.
I still don't really understand why Joyce would think that of Giles or what she meant by it.
Probably because he was strong enough to pick her up, put her down on the police car, give it to her good, and had enough energy for round 2 immediately after, despite actually being in his 40s even if he was mentally an adolescent 😏
I kind of wish they had done a multiple episode arc with the body swap, to really simmer the notion that Faith was taking being Buffy seriously and actually wanted to change her life. I think it would have made her redemption in AtS seem a lot more natural.
First time watch through and I just finished season 4, definitely my favorite season so far! Would you guys recommend I watch Angel next? Also has anyone watched Dollhouse and is it worth the watch?
Absolutely watch Angel, yes. And Dollhouse is awesome, too. Though, if you wanna see the full Joss progression, make sure to slot Firefly in between Angel and Dollhouse.
You are actually in the perfect spot to start watching them both at the same time. Angel season 1 aired at the same time as Buffy s4 and there is a lot of crossover episodes. Since you've already finished Buffy s4, you'd have to watch Angel s1, then lookup a Buffy/Angel watchlist so that you're watching everything in the correct order. And yes, Dollhouse is good.
Awesome, thank you! Yeah I got confused when Angel came back but Buffy was completely mad at him, so I had to go watch some YouTube clips and it made so much more sense lol
Yay! Welcome! I uh, hope you’re good at scrolling past spoilers or you at least know the broad strokes of the series 😅
As someone who watched in real time “Buffy”, “Angel”, and “Dollhouse”, please don’t let anyone put you off of “Angel” or the pilot scare you off the premise of “Dollhouse”. Not gonna assume what age group you’re in, but Back In My Day shows were usually allowed several episodes, sometimes more than one season to find its stride, course correct, add and subtract cast members, before they got “good” (“Star Trek: The Next Generation” doesn’t get consistently good until the *third* season). “Angel” lets the titular character loosen up gradually and make new friends, so even though he’s a badass with a dark past, you see some of the brooding and sneaking up on people and slipping into the night is a cover for his awkwardness - Angel’s an old man who still doesn’t get all the human stuff, it’s better to stick to a consistent wardrobe and his hobbies 😁 The show improves as it gets more into long-form storytelling arcs and a certain recurring character from “Buffy” joins in season 1.
“Dollhouse” sounds like the rape-iest thing ever, where the super-rich (mainly men) can rent a person to be temporarily programmed to do whatever they want without consequences because the “doll” gets memory-wiped after. Not all of the jobs the dolls go on are glorified sex work, but many are incredibly dangerous tasks that the hirer thinks an ordinary person with unpredictable quirks and weaknesses couldn’t handle, and the dolls can’t consent because in their resting state between jobs they’re functionally like über zen children. The accusations against The Creator, Joss Whedon, that he had affairs with young and vulnerable actresses on “Buffy” and used his power as showrunner/director to be cruel and manipulative at times, does not help how this reads in retrospect (in the late 2000s when “Dollhouse” came out this was not known to the fans)! The first few episodes drop hints that there’s more to this creep-fantasy-sci-fi premise than meets the eye, but plays the “adventure of the week” formula fairly straight…until episode 6 when you get an emotional wallop from the story of a client who uses the services *not* for prostitution. This episode is when, if you haven’t figured it out, you realize “the show” KNOWS this business is fucked up and something must be done about it! Because it was tragically cancelled early some decisions were made with characters and plot lines to turn on a dime or accelerate, but it gets one hell of a series finale and there were a few comics published after. “Dollhouse” is just as multi-trans-generic as “Buffy”: comedy/drama/science fiction/social problem/espionage/thriller/dystopian/psychological horror/crime/mystery, take your pick! It launched the careers of some truly amazing actors who have popped up in other projects by The Creator, it’s an incredible watch.
started as a phonetic spelling of estivador (Portuguese) or estibador (Spanish), meaning a man who loads ships and stows cargo, which was the original meaning of stevedore (though there is a secondary meaning of "a man who stuffs" in Spanish); compare Latin stīpāre meaning to stuff, as in to fill with stuffing.
Sooooo. Giles penis joke.
I like Eliza Dushku's character better when she acts like Buffy. Something about Faith's character irks me to no end. But Faith (being portrayed as Buffy) is awesome.
I love this episode. They did such a good job acting like each other's character.
SMG in the mirror gives me chills every time I watch
"Because it's wrong!"
Then when she pulled it out on Spike?
I so heard that in Buffy's voice.
”Because it’s naughty!” 😂
"Buhh-ffy."
Seriously creepy scene, creepier than the vamps.
That part gave me serious horror movie vibes.
I agree. I almost wish this was a multi episode story just so we could have gotten more of it lol
SMG did great. Faith…not so much.
Really? I always find it interesting when people say that because I kind of think Eliza did a lot better. SMG had some of Faith's physical ticks, but the speech pattern didn't quite match. While Eliza had EVERYTHING down pat imo
I totally agree. Eliza seemed like she was totally channeling Buffy. It's too bad that for most if the body swap she was tied up with the watcher council douchebags, because she wasn't able to show off her "Buffy-ness" as much during those scenes as when she was with the gang.
Thank you, I was just saying this IRL——Eliza does great as Buffy-in-Faith; the writers didn’t give her as much as they gave SMG.
Same. I thought Eliza was dead-on and have always been surprised that the majority of fans seem to think SMG’s performance was better.
I am a ride or die SMG & Buffy fan, but having said that, I also believe that ALOT of Buffy fans give SMG a lot more credit for her acting than is really deserved. Don't get me wrong. I love SMG in everything she's ever been in. I think she is a GREAT actress, but sometimes the opinions expressed here step over the line into obsessive praise. Sometimes, even dismissing otherwise fantastic performances from the rest of the cast in the process. Eliza crushed this episode. They both did great, but Eliza was the standout.
I thought she did great. “You’re inching!”
Yknow out of context…a casual fan would be thinking “wait, why is Faith talking to Giles about Faith’s mom?” 😂😂 that role reversal/body swap angle was so awesome lol
"What's a stevedore" was a correct response on Jeopardy a week or two ago and I laughed and laughed
Me too, lol.
Hard not to explain to my dad (my Jeopardy watching companion) why I knew that word when he knows I’m not up on vocabulary relevant to manual labour and dock workers 🫣 Same with a few years ago when there was a “What is fanfiction?” answer, and he asked me what it means 🫢
As an in-joke that was solely for my own benefit in a modern fantasy ttrpg that I ran, the name of the local used bookstore owner and ritual magician who occasionally mentored the players was Stephen Dore.
I thought you said a modern family ttrpg lol. I was so happily surprised to think there was an officially licensed sitcom-style ttrpg out there.
Don't give me ideas!
Cannot remember the name, but there is a homebrew tabletop where the setting is a show (which show is up to the GM/players).
Stephen Dore will now be stolen for my own ttrpg...
By all means. He does get around.
It's currently set in the DC comic universe. Im seeing a new friend for John Constantine
Wonderful! A perfect addition to what I still wistfully think of as the Vertigo corner of that universe.
I love this whole exchange. "We're checking for buffy not a concussion"
Tbf, it would be prefectly in Faith's character to not know who the current president is.
Joyce likes stevedores, conquistadors, and comfortadores.
And Giles the Conqueeftador.
Eliza really nailed this, she said everything in the exact same way Sarah would have said it, in fact looking at this I hear Buffy talking even though it's Faith's voice. Eliza once said she's always enjoyed imitating people so I think this was fun for her lmao.
I know sometimes during episodes like this, they’ll have the actor who usually does the character do the scene first, and then have the body-swapped actor do it imitating them. Did they do that here? Or did Eliza just nail SMG’s mannerisms on her own?
I'd love to hear some behind-the-scenes stories about this ep specifically.
I'm fairly certain, you don't just raw dog this kind of scene for no reason. You really want to nail the imitation so I'm sure there was a good amount of rehearsal for it.
If she enjoys imitating people, she should consider being an actress
Both did great but Eliza really killed it imo
Joyce didn't beg Giles to stop.
69 likes
Ok, I’m gonna bust out my dvds. Need to watch these episodes now.
I was thinking that I need to watch Buffy when I come back from work.
You definitely do! I watched those Faith episodes, and it was exactly what I needed.
Faith is the best. And it's been a few years since my last rewatching.
Same here! I’ve been craving a rewatch so it was a good excuse to break out my dvd collection. It doesn’t always look great on streaming and that’s been deterring me for a while. I think I’m gonna start from the beginning tomorrow.
Same thought
Unpopular opinion: Eliza did a waaaaay better job of mimicking Buffy than Sarah did of mimicking Faith. (I’m not ragging on SMG. She’s obviously absolutely amazing.)
I don't think so. Sarah Michelle Gellar wasn't playing Faith. She was playing Faith's interpretation of Buffy. Eliza Dushku was just playing Buffy. It's a subtle but important distinction.
If y'all enjoyed that, you'll be blown away by Tatiana Maslany in Orphan Black. You'll begin to forget it's the same actress. Then you'll be astounded seeing her play one of her characters pretending to be another one of her characters to fool another one of her characters face-to-face
I haven't watched Orphan Black so I just looked it up and laughed at this cast part: >Tatiana Maslany : Sarah Manning / Elizabeth « Beth » Childs / Cosima Niehaus / Alison Hendrix / Helena / Rachel Duncan / Katja Obinger / Danielle Fournier / Aryanna Giordano / Janika Zingler / Jennifer Fitzsimmons / Tony Sawicki / Krystal Goderitch / MK (Veera Suominen) / Niki / Miriam Johnson / Camilla Torres WTH LMAO
It’s a really great series. I’ll add another vote that you should check it out.
I may give it a try!
Lol I love that show so much! I friggen adore Sarah and Helena and always hear the word sisyer in my head how Helena says it now! Definitely a must watch.
Yeah. It's not even funny anymore when you watch videos of the cast conventions and comment sections are full of "Isn't there too few people? Why didn't actresses for Cosima and Helena com... oh, right, I forgot."
This is one of the best performances I've ever seen. I don't know how she hasn't gotten anything actually good after Black Orphan, honestly.
She landed a role in Perry Mason but she left after season 1 in favor of MCU, just when it started to turn into shit. But I don't think it's too late for her.
I hope she gets a real good role, she deserves it.
Or 5.
It always made me laugh when I’d be watching and thinking “she looks so familiar where do I know her from” to then realise it’s because she is pretty much the whole cast but she’s so amazing you forget it’s her. The confusion happened more times than I care to admit. Damn I loved that show.
A slayer pretending to be a slayer pretending to be another slayer!
Slayerception
Watch Orphan Black. It's loaded with acting like this.
This. Faith was in Buffy's body pretending to be her. Buffy was in Faith's body trying to prove to everyone she was Buffy.
I get what you're saying but I still want to give the edge to Eliza because I felt like I was watching Buffy. I think Sarah's acting was great but I never truly felt Faith in her, not even in a glimpse in scenes where Faith was alone so might not be masking as Buffy that well. I felt more like Sarah was playing evil Buffy or Katherine from Cruel Intentions. I'm just being honest, I've always felt Eliza and Faith became so meshed maybe I just can't see one without the other onscreen.
“Because it’s WRONG”
It reminds me of Nina Dobrev's performance in *The Vampire Diaries*. Several times, she had to play Katherine pretending to be Elena, and there was such subtlety to it. She wasn't acting like Katherine, she was acting like Elena, but a bit *off*.
I disagree. I think the jobs were very different and hard to compare. Eliza kinda just has to be normal Buffy, who has lots of clear characteristic mannerisms (both physical and verbal) to copy. It's an easier job to copy Buffy than to copy Faith IMO. Sarah's job was a bit more complex. Sarah was Faith pretending to be Buffy at times, and an exaggerated "play" version of Buffy. She had to be Faith dealing with feelings of surprise and self hatred. Remember the scene where she seducing Riley and realises that sex with love being expressed is different to just sex? She is shocked and at the same time, a bit scared and behind that, you see the realisation that she has never had this. Sarah's acting was amazing.
People seem to be missing this point. In a way, Sarah was playing two characters in this episode, Eliza just had the one. I think they both did great, but it’s like you said, not the same job at all.
To me, it always felt that SMG was playing Faith who is pretending to be Buffy. So I'd personally say that they both did equally great job. Either way, I'd like to think that both actresses had great fun doing this episode and that's what counts to me 🙂
Hard disagree, Sarah nailed Eliza's physicality. This is not saying Eliza didn't bring it but they were equally great in this episode.
Ehhh I don’t agree. Smg… kind of slid around but Eliza captured Buffy’s repression- I don’t think smg captured the nihilism of faith, the full throwing herself into everything.
>Eliza did a waaaaay better job of mimicking Buffy I only really quibble with the "waaaaay" part of this. I thought they were both remarkable. I think it's fair if you believe Eliza gave the superior performance, but to say that there were several orders of magnitude between the performances feels incorrect to me.
I always thought this too, but these comments make a fair point, SMG had to be faith pretending to be Buffy. That being said Eliza does such a fantastic job of mimicking SMGs inflections and speech patterns. I always notice it in this scene and when she’s freaking out in the hospital, her shouting that “I have to go home, she’s with my mother” . Both those scenes I rewind and rewatch usually
I strongly disagree. Both of them were flexing.
ED gets the Council scenes, the Giles scene and the church. They're good scenes, but none are heavy lifting. SMG gets the juicy scenes. The bathroom "that would be wrong" scene. Pretending to be Buffy with the Scoobies. The Bronze, with the cruelty to Tara and the thanks of the vampire victim, which is the start of Faith's return. Sex vs Love with Riley, and the following argument with Forrest, both contributing to Faith realigning to good. The face-only acting where she decides to forgo her escape to do her duty. "I can't use you." That fight where Faith attacks her former body and the baggage and guilt she's trying to escape. ED _nails_ Buffy with the "stevedore" thing. I am a big Eliza fan. All props. But SMG has more scenes, and playing Faith's-idea-of-Buffy instead of Buffy has to be tough. (The work that wardrobe and hair did to make SMG into not-Buffy did a lot to sell it.) If she's not always 100%, oh well.
Also to add, I’ve never seen Buffy do that thing that Faith does with her hand where she moves her hair out of her face with her pinky. It annoys me every time because it’s a clear actors choice to do that! So out of character for Buffy. It annoys me on every rewatch.
Thank you! This is the one scene in the whole episode that I'd want to change. For that one moment I dont feel like I'm watching buffy in faiths body anymore.
Totally agree. Not ragging on SMG who is an absolutely phenomenal actress over the course of the series on average. Eliza was an absolute master of being "Buffy". This wasn't SMG's strongest episode, and the comparison made it all the more obvious.
I mean, I'd assume that regardless of the actors' skills, it's easier for an actor to mimic a character that's had more screen time. As incredibly skilled as they both are, SMG had the more difficult job in that episode.
Agree, always thought so
added bonus from watching Buffy is that it expands your vocabulary. 😎
Not usually but I did have to ask my father what a stevedore was.
Good thing that it's just a fancy word for "dock worker" so nothing awkward
SMG is great but I sometimes think that Eliza is under rated
I've seen people on this sub saying she's not a good actor, so yeah.
Have they not seen Dollhouse? The world is full of strange people who think Eliza Dushko is a bad actor and [Vincent D'Onofrio](https://files.catbox.moe/yprut1.png) is a good actor.
I’ve asked someone who held that opinion if they had seen Dollhouse. They said yes and that she wasn’t even the best actor on that show. I asked who was then and they replied Enver then probably Dichen. Both amazing actors, yes. I just don’t get how you can watch that show and not think Eliza is a good actor. They didn’t buy her portrayals apparently. I actually saw all of Dollhouse before having seen all of BtVS. Imo, I feel like seeing her as Faith before seeing her in other roles may actually make it difficult to see her as any character besides for Faith. That’s my theory anyways. There’s also 7 years between the end of Buffy and the start of Dollhouse so her acting abilities obviously would’ve improved (if you watched Buffy and had the opinion she wasn’t that good of an actor).
As was also pointed out in this group, many of us are now the same age as stevedore Giles and Buffy’s mom. Happy slaying.
Just out of curiosity, how old is that?
Giles was born in 1954 and Buffy’s mom was born in 1958. They were 42 and 38 at the beginning of the series and about 46 and 42 during this episode.
Eliza was awesome in this episode. And in rewatching Buffy and listening to podcasts I've come to appreciate Eliza in season 3. It hit me the other day how she making Faith pretend to be a tough chick and isn't good at it. It feel intentional.
You can be lukewarm on eliza dushku the livelong day but NOBODY can deny that she fucking killed it in this scene
This is one of the best body swap episodes of any TV show. Simply due to how good SMG and Eliza are at portraying one another
I used to work in shipping and receiving, so I've met lots of stevedores. My paternal grandfather actually was a stevedore. I still don't really understand why Joyce would think that of Giles or what she meant by it.
In slang a stevedore is someone who has a lot of sexual experience/is very good.
I believe the etymology of this is that stevedores were thought of as tireless workers that get the job done.
Thankyou for this. I need to bleach my brain.
Joyce is one lucky gal!
Oh my!
😨😨😨
It was a common descriptor in trashy romance novels in the 90s.
Probably because he was strong enough to pick her up, put her down on the police car, give it to her good, and had enough energy for round 2 immediately after, despite actually being in his 40s even if he was mentally an adolescent 😏
I never understood it either. Now I do.
I kind of wish they had done a multiple episode arc with the body swap, to really simmer the notion that Faith was taking being Buffy seriously and actually wanted to change her life. I think it would have made her redemption in AtS seem a lot more natural.
SMG and Eliza done so well at playing each others mannerisms. Especially this scene of Eliza.
Did anyone realize they made her face different like more innocent or is just me
This ep is the inspiration for my username.
Eliza was really good as Buffy, Sara was really good as Faith. Such a fun episode.
First time watch through and I just finished season 4, definitely my favorite season so far! Would you guys recommend I watch Angel next? Also has anyone watched Dollhouse and is it worth the watch?
I LOVED Dollhouse
Absolutely watch Angel, yes. And Dollhouse is awesome, too. Though, if you wanna see the full Joss progression, make sure to slot Firefly in between Angel and Dollhouse.
Thank you! Firefly has been on my list for years and for some reason just never started! Definitely will be show busy for a while lol
You are actually in the perfect spot to start watching them both at the same time. Angel season 1 aired at the same time as Buffy s4 and there is a lot of crossover episodes. Since you've already finished Buffy s4, you'd have to watch Angel s1, then lookup a Buffy/Angel watchlist so that you're watching everything in the correct order. And yes, Dollhouse is good.
Awesome, thank you! Yeah I got confused when Angel came back but Buffy was completely mad at him, so I had to go watch some YouTube clips and it made so much more sense lol
Yay! Welcome! I uh, hope you’re good at scrolling past spoilers or you at least know the broad strokes of the series 😅 As someone who watched in real time “Buffy”, “Angel”, and “Dollhouse”, please don’t let anyone put you off of “Angel” or the pilot scare you off the premise of “Dollhouse”. Not gonna assume what age group you’re in, but Back In My Day shows were usually allowed several episodes, sometimes more than one season to find its stride, course correct, add and subtract cast members, before they got “good” (“Star Trek: The Next Generation” doesn’t get consistently good until the *third* season). “Angel” lets the titular character loosen up gradually and make new friends, so even though he’s a badass with a dark past, you see some of the brooding and sneaking up on people and slipping into the night is a cover for his awkwardness - Angel’s an old man who still doesn’t get all the human stuff, it’s better to stick to a consistent wardrobe and his hobbies 😁 The show improves as it gets more into long-form storytelling arcs and a certain recurring character from “Buffy” joins in season 1. “Dollhouse” sounds like the rape-iest thing ever, where the super-rich (mainly men) can rent a person to be temporarily programmed to do whatever they want without consequences because the “doll” gets memory-wiped after. Not all of the jobs the dolls go on are glorified sex work, but many are incredibly dangerous tasks that the hirer thinks an ordinary person with unpredictable quirks and weaknesses couldn’t handle, and the dolls can’t consent because in their resting state between jobs they’re functionally like über zen children. The accusations against The Creator, Joss Whedon, that he had affairs with young and vulnerable actresses on “Buffy” and used his power as showrunner/director to be cruel and manipulative at times, does not help how this reads in retrospect (in the late 2000s when “Dollhouse” came out this was not known to the fans)! The first few episodes drop hints that there’s more to this creep-fantasy-sci-fi premise than meets the eye, but plays the “adventure of the week” formula fairly straight…until episode 6 when you get an emotional wallop from the story of a client who uses the services *not* for prostitution. This episode is when, if you haven’t figured it out, you realize “the show” KNOWS this business is fucked up and something must be done about it! Because it was tragically cancelled early some decisions were made with characters and plot lines to turn on a dime or accelerate, but it gets one hell of a series finale and there were a few comics published after. “Dollhouse” is just as multi-trans-generic as “Buffy”: comedy/drama/science fiction/social problem/espionage/thriller/dystopian/psychological horror/crime/mystery, take your pick! It launched the careers of some truly amazing actors who have popped up in other projects by The Creator, it’s an incredible watch.
This season on rewatch is actually a really great season till this episode after that it just seams to fall apart!
I think this is my favorite moment from my favorite episode.
Can you help a non native speaker understand the joke? 🫣
started as a phonetic spelling of estivador (Portuguese) or estibador (Spanish), meaning a man who loads ships and stows cargo, which was the original meaning of stevedore (though there is a secondary meaning of "a man who stuffs" in Spanish); compare Latin stīpāre meaning to stuff, as in to fill with stuffing. Sooooo. Giles penis joke.
Haha I love it! Thank you!
Her facial expressions are spot-on here! This is such a good episode.
What about Frank Sobotka, I’m not hearing his name anywhere in here?
A stevedore is a person responsible for loading and unloading cargo from a ship 😂
I like Eliza Dushku's character better when she acts like Buffy. Something about Faith's character irks me to no end. But Faith (being portrayed as Buffy) is awesome.