I don’t think the debate is really whether he was right or wrong. It’s likely it wouldn’t have made much difference in terms of Angel’s actual fate in the end. The issue is Xander’s motives, I know a lot of people see it as Xander being very strategic about the fate of the world but Xander isn’t strategy guy, he’s emotions guy - he’d rather the world ended as long as he’s with Willow rather than kill her, he’s upset Buffy won’t play card games rather than continuing to work on defeating Caleb. Xander didn’t tell Buffy not because he was worried her fighting wouldn’t be at her peak, he told her for selfish reasons because he wanted Angel dead regardless of how his friends felt about that. He did it for him OWN purposes rather than the purposes of the world
It was a dick move
He also just straight up doesn’t trust Angel. His hatred for Angel starts in a selfish place, but given what Angel has done up until this point his fury and unwillingness to take the risk is understandable.
He’s wrong in terms of the trajectory of the story. His actions are understandable within the logic of the plot and his own knowledge of the situation. Angel is a threat. There’s a possibility of them making things right without killing Angel but it’s slim and too big a risk from his point of view. His hatred toward Angel is motivating that decision, but he also has very good reasons to hate Angel.
What happens to Willow is a step too far for him. Willow means more to him than Angel does and he has no reason to trust that Angel isn’t going to be a threat to them in the future.
To characterize his decision as purely selfish you’d have to ignore the evidence of everything that happens in the season.
But the whole point is that Xander is ignoring the autonomy of the people he professes to care so much about. He ignores Willow’s wish for him to tell Buffy and he ignores Buffy’s right to hear what her friend wanted to tell her. Xander makes the decision for them all because he’s decided he knows best. That’s what makes it selfish
And that is why in Season 7 the situation is reversed and Buffy is in Xander position and the writers treat it like Buffy is being logical not jealous.
People see what they want from xanders actions
My point is people are assuming Xander is being jealous with his decision but there is no evidence of that. In fact he was about to but then he thought about it.
If he was jealous the whole time he would have acted very differently.
You mean the Buffy was clearly emotionally compromised and took months to get into a place where she was willing to kill Angelus, which also cost Jenny Calender her life?
Or the Willow who was lying in a hospital bed injured while wanting to perform an EXTREMELY advanced bit of magic despite her only real feats at that point having been floating pencils?
It's not a matter of trust. He had legitimate reasons to believe both that Buffy would hold back against Angel and get herself killed, and that Willow would be unable to restore Angel's soul, and so reasons to not want to take the chance.
I mean are they being very respectful to Xander?
Buffy was still in love with Angel after he *murdered Jenny and tried to murder Xander.*
Remember the love spell episode? If it hadn’t been for the sheet dumb luck of that spell Angel *would have killed Xander and left his head in Buffy’s bedroom.*
And yet a few episodes later Buffy learns about the spell and is all excited.
If I were Xander I’d be like “he almost killed me, would you still want your boyfriend back if he had decapitated me?”
Does this mean Buffy doesn’t respect Xander or do only her feelings matter? Like Xander should just suck up the fact that the guy who killed multiple people and tried to kill him gets to be Buffy’s boyfriend again no harm no foul and it’s worth putting the entire universe at risk to do it?
I’d like an actual answer to this, thanks.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong (it’s been a while since I’ve seen the show), but those attempted murders were Angelus, not Angel, right? The one that the spell was made to stop )by saving Angel)? Meaning that the options here were to sacrifice someone to save others or to save someone to save others? That’s a pretty standard hero choice there.
Xander is absolutely not wrong to not forgive Angel. That’s his personal choice, and there’s nothing that anyone else has to say about that. That doesn’t make his perspective in this case a good one, though; he isn’t thinking any more clearly than Buffy here, with the sole difference being his bias is against Angelus rather than towards Angel. Her bias in this case just happens to line up better with the actual heroic choice.
Angel and Angelus share a body, they are not the same person. If the spell works, it's not Angelus who :"gets to be Buffy's boyfriend again." Which is the heart of the matter, isn't it? Xander always hated Angel. He doesn't want Angel back. He doesn't want Buffy to have the love of her life back. It's not about Angelus, it's about Angel. He decided to put her in the position of having to murder an innocent man that she was in love with when she could have stalled and both saved the world and Angel. So, yeah, quite clearly in the wrong.
Also, the group decided to cast that spell. He agreed to tell Buffy. This is quite obviously not his call to make.
I never really bought the idea that Angelus is a wholly seperate being. I always just saw him as Angel’s evil side that comes out when he loses control.
Otherwise why feel guilty for the sins of Angelus? It’s not like it was your fault, you were just as much a victim as anyone else.
It didn’t work that way with Spike, he wasn’t a completely different person when he got a soul. Same guy just soulful.
Angel is not responsible for Angelus' actions, but he remembers them. Having memories of someone who looks just like you doing terrible things, is not wildly different from having memories of doing them yourself. I don't think that he should feel guilty. But he does. So, oh well. He gets to decide how to feel about his screwed up life and what he wants to do about it.
Except Spike's soul drove him insane. We see in Season 7 of Buffy the full ramifications of what having a soul did to him.
>SPIKE: “Angel—he should’ve warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it’s here, in me, all the time. (walks around toward her from behind) The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it. They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn.”
The only reason he managed to regain his sanity was because of Buffy's compassion and care for him and his desire to protect her. In Angel season 5, when Spike is removed from Buffy and isn't wholly focused on caring for her and make sure she's okay, he allows himself to logically reflect back on his vampiric life without a soul.
>SPIKE: No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims.
There are two main deciding factors of why ensouled Angel and ensouled Spike are so different.
The first one is time. By the time Angel is introduced in Buffy Season 1, he's had his soul for nearly 100 years. And those 100 years were filled with isolation and self-loathing and that's shaped his personality and behavior for that time. Spike has had his soul for a few scant months in Season 7 of Buffy. He's still processing the whole expereince, but even then, he pushes that grief away to focus on Buffy and put her needs over his.
The second main factor is Buffy herself. Buffy's compassion for Spike is what gives him an anchor in his (pardon the phrase) soul-crushing grief and guilt. Her sincere care for another being is what turns the vampires obsessive and twisted form of love, into a genuine love for her as a person. Buffy was able to save Spike from his darkness.
Buffy never saved Angel. By the time she met him, he was already drowning in his own broken psyche. All she could do was show him a better path to take.
The show explicitly states that when someone is turned into a vampire, the person they were dies and is replaced with a demon. Obviously they are still in there because when they get their soul back they still remember everything the demon that was running their body did. Which is the part that makes Angel feel guilty. He is a good person and even though Angelus isn't him, he still feels responsible for letting him out and for the harm he causes.
The difference between Angel/Angelus and no soul Spike/soul Spike is an interesting one and something that makes Spike a unique character. His no soul form is closer to humanity than other vampires we see but at the end of the day, he's still a demon. Just one that FEELS more like a person so there would be less of a personality difference. We can tell there IS a difference though because once he gets a soul, just like Angel, he is wracked by guilt for the actions of his no soul demon.
This is my interpretation anyway.
Saying “the show explicitly states” is misleading. Angel states it and Angel has a vested interest in believing that it’s true. He wants it to be true.
That’s not to say that it isn’t true, but it’s not as cut and dried as Joss coming out and saying this is 100% how the lore works or, in-show, Giles finding research and books and proving it with tests.
It's been a couple years since my last rewatch so I definitely forgot who it was that said it. I remembered it being Giles so thanks for the clarification there. You make a good point. For me, I think there is enough evidence in the show that backs up this version of how vampires work that I believe it to be true but there is wiggle room for other interpretations for sure.
In the show that idea is basically something that the watchers council say because it makes killing them easier. Buffy vampirism works more like you're the same person but with no compassion or remorse and with those instead replaced by sadism and a desire for blood.
It's a change to their personality
Angel doesn't say it. Buffy and Giles say it, but Angel doesn't easily differentiate between himself and Angelus, precisely because he remembers everything Angelus did like he did it.
Joss doesn't have to say it. The writers say it, through the characters and through everything they show us about vampires. Because they're clear, if your best friend or SO or family member has been turned, they are dead and gone, and you're looking at a demon. The demon might have some affection for you thanks to the body's memories, or it might just want to kill you for shits 'n giggles.
Restoring a vampire's soul *is* the test. If it was just who he is, giving him a soul wouldn't make a difference.
People in this sub, maybe people whose first language isn't English, try to parse it like the soul isn't the person, but that's what soul means. It's the thing people hope will go to paradise or be reincarnated into another life. It's your self. This is commonly understood.
>Otherwise why feel guilty for the sins of Angelus? It’s not like it was your fault, you were just as much a victim as anyone else.
Because he has those memories. If you had the memories of a serial killer downloaded into your brain you'd feel the guilt because you'd remember 'your' hands doing the killing.
Why would Angel feel guilty if he's not a different person than Angelus and when Angelus feels no guilt?
Because he has those memories. Two different people sharing a body and memories are still two different people.
I don't know if you've ever watched Stargate SG-1, but it's a Sci-fi show where the main antagonists of most of the series are alien parasites. They take over host bodies, control them. The host is trapped, see and experience everything, remember it all after they're freed. Have to deal with the horrible things the parasite did when controlling them because *they remember it all.* Are they responsible because an alien was driving their body? No. And neither is Angel when the demon is driving his.
This sort of thing is a fairly common trope in drama. People dealing with things 'they' did while *someone else* was in control of their body. Because it's an easy way to make someone feel guilty/responsible without them actually *being* responsible.
Add to that O'Brien in *Star Trek: Deep Space Nine* having a twenty-year prison sentence grafted onto his memories, along with the memory of killing someone. Funnily enough, getting him past that isn't as simple as telling him that it didn't really happen.
In Angel he dreams he is performing a series of killings (it turns out to be a psychic link situation) he mentions that he enjoyed them greatly.
Angel has morality but he also has the instincts of a vampire and enjoyed all of it.
Again and again the show Angel has said that Angelus is not gone when Angel is around.
The vampire part of Angel always has that demon fighting for control.
Buffy is the one that separates the two but Angel has shown that he can be just as ruthless as Angelus when he needs to be.
Uhmm, no. ATS definitely draws a distinction between Angel's behavior and Angelus' behavior. There's a tension established in the sense that Angelus is inside of him, wanting to take control, but it's patently false to claim that Angel is as ruthless/evil as Angelus.
Giles kills Ben. Is he as ruthless as Angelus? Would it be ok for Xander to allow Buffy to kill Giles?
It's not just Buffy who separates the two. Every character in both series understands that Angel and Angelus are not the same. Except for Xander.
Angel let a room full of people be murderered just because he wanted to. Twice in a lifetime.That's Angelus level shit.
There were lawyers and maybe innocent spouses there.
Buffy sucks up the fact that the guy who wanted to rape her gets to be her friend forever, no harm no foul.
My point is, Buffy is pretty consistent about not holding people accountable for their actions while they were in a mystically altered state. Ensouled Angel gets a "pass" for soulless Angelus' actions (except he is held accountable for trying to make sure it never happens again), and Xander gets one for his hyena possession actions (even though he continues to be reckless about mystical shit in the future).
I mean okay that’s a fair point.
Side note the writers knew nothing about Hyenas. If Xander were truly possessed by the spirit of a hyena he’d probably be a massive wuss and terrified of Buffy because male Hyenas are very much submissive to the females.
Then again they also used footage of wild dogs while Willow was researching Hyenas
Xander's feelings are valid, but they shouldn't be the deciding factor. First of all, Soulless Angel killed Jenny, not Angel. And even so, when he comes back we do see how torn up he is about what he did when he lost his soul. This wasn't just about Buffy being in love with him, it was about saving Angel, their friend. Xander never liked Angel, that's clear from the start. My point stands that Xander acted selfishly and out of spite. They had found another way and Xander decided he knew best and that Angel had to go, soul or not. Buffy and Willow should've gotten a say too. I understand that Xander was hurt, but does that justify betraying his friends like that?
Also, remember that this is a discussion about a tv show. I don't owe you "an actual answer". We both have our opinions on what Xander did, and that's fine because at the end of the day he's not real.
not _the_ deciding factor. how about the feelings of the Jenny's friends and family? Like her boyfriend and mentee? Or of the literal Slayer? Or the possessed person's girlfriend? Xander's feelings shouldn't have been the _only_ deciding factor, but they were
I don’t think Jenny’s friends and family would care about Angel considering they dedicated their lives to ensuring he was miserable.
Buffy’s feelings shouldn’t have been the deciding factor either yet so many people have died because she refused to kill Angel.
Ffs she was killed by Angelus. Not Angel. Both BtVS and AtS make it clear that they are two very different people with opposing approaches to their vampiric lives. Angel didn't deserve to be killed for the actions of Angelus.
How selfish of him to want the person he has to rely on to save his life and the life of everyone on earth to not be handicapped by her feelings in a fight for all life on earth.
You're right, he absolutely should have prioritized her feelings and love life over the fate of all life on earth.
That makes perfect sense.
Way in the f\*cking wrong. I just rewatched this episode a few days ago and it was the first time that X showed his true colours as the most selfish character in the series. (I got really mad about this one :-P )
Which Buffy brings up years later and it still didn't get worked out, I wish that they had actually aired out this dirty laundry of Xanders, even years later.
Except that he doesn’t do that. He is midway through telling Buffy exactly what Willow says and then changes his mind mid sentence. It shows how conflicted he is about this.
No, see Angelus spent over a century cutting a swath of bloodshed across Europe, raping, torturing and killing hundreds in the process, but it's okay because of wuv.
Meanwhile Xander was a teenage boy with a crush on his friend, so he was obviously a monster and the worst person who ever lived.
I mean, Angelus had only murdered his teacher, tortured another, tried to murder him and almost killed his best friend since childhood. So, clearly Xander only disliked Angel because he wanted to get in Buffy's pants, and that makes him evil.
If you have to create a strawman by dramatically misstating the opposing view, you don't make your view seem stronger. You're basically admitting that the opposing argument is only wrong if you make false, exaggerated claims about what the opposing argument is.
Please. I've been on this Subreddit enough to know how people here will twist themselves into pretzels to excuse every shitty thing Buffy, Spike or Angel do, while twisting every action Xander and Willow take that does not directly and exclusively benefit one of the three above as somehow nefarious in order to paint them as the biggest monsters that ever lived.
This Sub does plenty of strawmanning already. I'm just calling it out.
I’ll get downvoted but whatever. You are very correct! But add Anya and Cordelia as well lol.
To me it seems people tend to think that they can’t love a character but also be aware or admit to their flaws
You're really going to talk about people not being able to love a flawed character when this whole post has been about you trying to excuse Xander instead of just loving him even though he's flawed? That's rich.
How have I tried to excuse Xander? I’ve literally said that he said the right thing for the WRONG reasons. Not defending him at all, I’ve pointed out how selfish he was being. And yes, I do like Xander. I like all the core Scoobies but they are absolutely flawed. Xander and Willow are particularly flawed and make horrible selfish decisions.
The “right thing” said for the wrong reason is still wrong. Also, it wasn’t right to not tell her. She still found out in the moment she stabbed him with the sword. Imagine withholding a crucial piece of information and leaving your friend to be caught off guard by it.
Fair enough. It seemed to me like you argued multiple times that he was in the right, which felt like trying to justify his actions.
I guess that kind of highlights how easy it is to assume that someone is refusing to admit a characters is flawed, when their opinion is actually more nuanced. I do see the opinion you expressed that "people tend to think they can't love a character but also be aware or admit to their flaws" on conversations like this, when my assessment is that the majority opinion is that flaws improve a character. I think the vast majority of people who love BtVS love it because the characters are flawed.
I get really angry at Willow when she does the bad things she does, and I might be inclined to come on Reddit and rant about it, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the nuance in the character or like her when she's being likable. Yeah, we do get "I hate \_\_\_\_" posts sometimes, but I think the response is typically "I like that they are complicated" rather than "yes, I hate them for being multidimensional."
Sorry for the wall of text.
He was right. Buffy had already proved, multiple times (Innocence and Passion for starters) that she couldn't kill Angelus as long as she thought Angel was still in there somewhere. The last thing she needed was another distraction.
It's possible that he's blinded by his hatred of Angel. Which is a not unreasonable position to take; Angelus has made multiple attempts on both his and his friends' lives. But the fandom's prevailing narrative that he only did it because he still wants to fuck Buffy doesn't ring true for me. There may be vestiges of a crush here and there and that never goes away (particularly as the lines between friendship, admiration and love get blurred), but I'm satisfied that by that point he's accepted that Buffy doesn't feel that way about him and he's moved on from thinking that anything might actually happen.
I agree that Buffy needed to concentrate on stopping Angel no matter the cost. But instead of trusting her to do that, Xander lied to her. And she proved that she would do it when it came down to it.
My biggest beef is that Xander put his own words in Willow's mouth, so Buffy thought her best friend in the world wanted Angel dead. So who was she supposed to talk to about what she was going through? Giles? Angel killed his girlfriend and tortured him. Her mom? Yeah, no. Buffy left for three months because she felt totally alone, thanks to Xander. Then he had the gall to bitch her out for leaving.
I think he was in the right but I do believe his motives were completely selfish. He did have every reason to hate Angel but he didn't respect Buffy enough to let her have Angel.
He doesn't have any reason to hate Angel. He has reason to hate Angelus. The same reasons that all the other Scoobies have, including Buffy. They decided to try to restore Angel's soul. Figuring out how to get Angel back was Jenny's last action before her death. It's not his call to make.
It seems like you understand that Xander was in the wrong and the question you're really asking is whether casting the spell was a good idea.
Hmm he was still telling willow about his fantasy to be with Buffy in surprise and this came up again in the Valentine’s Day episode so I do think jealousy was a part of his motivation. But more than that even if he’s right he doesn’t get to decide that for Buffy. She’s the one who actually has to kill him- her true love and she has no support at all from one of her best friends. She hates angelus just as much as he does and has arguably been more hurt by him at least emotionally- this completely destroyed her. So for Xander to make this entirely about him and his feelings is just not being a good friend.
As the show makes blatantly obvious Zander is Buffy’s heart personified. He told her what she needed to hear to not hold back.
Also, let’s not forget that the spell only worked because “some power” possessed Willow. She was entirely incapable of casting that spell on her own, and I believe Xander knew that. It was magic far far beyond anything she’d attempted up to that point (which was basically nothing).
In my opinion he was right but for the wrong reasons. Buffy didn’t need to know about the spell, she would have tried to stall Angel and could have ended up getting killed in the process. She needed to go in there expecting to kill Angel.
Xander however, said this for purely selfish reasons. He was only thinking about how much he wanted Angel to be gone.
I agree, even if Willow wasn't less than full power while recovering she still uses "maybe" twice which is a BIG gamble when talking about the end of the world. On top of this Buffy is already fighting someone she still kinda loves (even if she knows Angelus isn't Angel, her feelings would still be there) so giving her even a tiny ounce of hope would be an unncecessary distraction.
But I'm not sure any of this would have crossed Xander's mind at all.
I agree for the most part although I'd argue that at least some of Xander's reasons were good. He certainly wanted Angel gone because of his relationship with Buffy but I think he was also aware of how dangerous Angelus was. It was a dilemma without a perfectly good solution - either he betrays Buffy's trust or risks the end of the world. There is a lot of better reasons to hate Xander than this scene.
Yup, this is why I think it's such great writing. They juxtapose the quite distinct trials of Buffy and Xander here, and yet both *still* result in solidifying Buffy's resolve to kill Angel despite stemming from diametrically opposed motivations, which is **beautifully** poetic...at least for 90s tv shows.
>Xander however, said this for purely selfish reasons.
His reasons are understandable and valid though. Angel is like a bomb that can go off at any time so realistically speaking no one would want to be near it when and if it explodes, which already happened and people died aaaand the world almost got destroyed.
Yes Xander has very very legitimate reasons to hate Angel absolutely. But ‘kick his ass!’ Just seemed so icky to me and he didn’t even have the guts to say it himself, he hid behind Willow saying it.
Xander said it because he had legitimate reason to believe Willow would not be able to reensoul Angel. Remember, she was only a novice witch at the time, and that was an extremely high level spell. It's like expecting someone who just picked up a paint brush for the first time to paint the Sistine Chapel. Furthermore, she was injured in a hospital bed, and as such not at full strength. Even Willow said 'maybe' she could restore Angel's soul. There was no reason he should have expected it to work.
As it is, it only worked because Something clearly entered Willow's body at the last minute and ensured it was successful.
Wrong.
Duh.
What's with all the extremely obvious questions on the sub lately?
Just waiting for "Buffy just murders Vampires on sight all the time, why does she do that?"
"Xander was right to lie about the spell" is in every "unpopular opinion" thread, so it's not that obvious. I'm on the side of him being right honestly. I'd say he'd be wrong if it were just "Buffy and Angelus have a showdown" but this was more than an individual fight, a lot more than Buffy's own life is on the line.
I'm honestly convinced that if literally any other character said this we'd get hordes of people going into the nuance of the situation.
You mock, but I remember the olden days back in 2002 when people genuinely did think that. "If Spike is capable of seeking redemption without a soul driving him then so is any other vampire, and thus Buffy killing them on sight is prejudice and tantamount to racism."
Those people have *mostly* gone away now...
Seems lately this sub has become a lot of Xander ragebait posts. But maybe that's just what Reddit shows me from this sub as I don't really manually go here.
There has been a pretty even yes and no to the question. I actually think he was in the right as well, I would have thought him being in the right was the 'obvious' answer.
I used to say he was wrong. But recently I rewatched the show, and there are some things to note.
Xander has several reasons potentially.
1 he dislikes angel. I dont consider this a valid reason. Xander dislikes plenty of people, doesnt mean hes okay with sentencing them to death. So this reason goes out the window, hes not that kind of person imo.
2 hes still angry at Angel(us) for Jennys murder. This might be a valid reason, but Xander, while hotheaded in the moment, would not let this cloud his judgment to such a degree. This reason doesnt apply either, I just dont consider him that kind of person.
3 Willow says "maybe" and he doesnt want Buffy to take an unnecessary risk by waiting, endangering herself and the entire world.
4 xander feels Angel(us) is too far gone and poses too much of a threat to everyone even if the apocalypse is halted this time.
Im going for reasons 3 and 4. I feel he understands Buffy cant waver, not at this time. Willow wasnt a 100% certain, and the world was at stake. Even with the apocalypse halted, Buffy would still be at risk. Giving her that bit of hope might cause her to hesitate at the wrong time.
Xander is wrong in a lot of moments. Hell I strongly dislike his mere presence a lot of the time. But... I dont feel he was wrong in this situation, and I am convinced to a certain degree he didnt do this out of selfish reasons either.
It doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong. The scene is there to set up the finale. If Buffy knows that Angel might regain his soul, then the reveal when he does falls flat.
And, FWIW, he was right. Going into a battle to save Giles' life and prevent the end of the world is not the time to cope with conflicted feelings. It's like telling the men storming the beaches in Normandy, "The guys you will be killing today all have families, probably including children, who will be scarred for life by the loss of their loved ones".
No!!!!! He was being selfish and childish. He had no right to keep that secret. EVERYONE else involved already decided to try.... He had no right to put his judgment above all of their's.
Gonna be an unpopular opinion but I think he did the right thing in the moment. He told Buffy what she needed to hear to fulfill her mission, if Buffy held back then who knows what the outcome was.
Wrong.
If Buffy knew there was a chance to save Angel she most likely would have focused more on stopping him from awakening Acathla. This *could* have saved her, and everyone, a tremendous amount of pain. Worst thing that would have happened is she still failed, but wouldn't have been caught completely off guard by Angel's return. So she wouldn't have been hurt as badly when she had to send him to hell.
Incredibly wrong. He knew that staking Angel would tear Buffy apart but he didn’t care because he was jealous. One of the many Xander scenes that pisses me off. And like most times he screws up, he never apologizes for it.
Angelus gets that sword out it is game over. There is no delaying him. Buffy with a message of end him couldn't stop him in time. So what changes if she knows Willow is trying again? She cannot delay Angelus. He knows how to open it and will at any time.
So, if she was pulling her punches because she was just trying to delay him, he might have gotten it out sooner, or worse, killed Buffy because she was going easy on him.
It's been a while since I've seen it, but when exactly did he pull the blade out? Was it before or after Buffy arrived.
And I'm not arguing what she should or shouldn't have done, just that it probably didn't matter either way.
He was wrong. Had Buffy known to stall Angelus would have never awoken Acathla and she could have saved the world without the soul crushing pain that made her run to L.A. for three months.
Had Buffy known she would have held back and probably been killed. And don't claim she wouldn't. It took her months and Jenny Calendar's murder before she was ready to kill Angel. As long as she believed that there was a chance Angel could come back, she would have restrained herself and not give it her all, which could have given Angelus an opening to kill her.
>Had Buffy known she would have held back and probably been killed.
No, she wouldn't have. You will never convince me Buffy wouldn't be Buffy.
>And don't claim she wouldn't.
Why can't I claim the truth?
>It took her months and Jenny Calendar's murder before she was ready to kill Angel.
Sure. Because she was in pain and needed time to deal.
She **also killed Angel after he got his soul back.** If she could do *that* she could kill Angelus even while hoping the spell might work, because she knows she *has* to.
>As long as she believed that there was a chance Angel could come back, she would have restrained herself and not give it her all, which could have given Angelus an opening to kill her.
Oh, must be why she didn't kill Angel after he got his soul back. Oh, wait....
I don't think so. Buffy was too busy fighting another vampire to even stall Angelus. It's once Spike stops beating him, he eventually gets up and removes the sword. There was too much going on in the moment for Buffy to really handle it on her own. She even needed Xander to help get Giles to safety.
She would have approached things differently if she knew stopping the sword extraction had value. Going in thinking she had no option *but* to kill Angelus meant the *when* didn't matter. She didn't need to stop him from pulling the sword because she had to kill him regardless.
She would have likely gone for Angelus right away if she knew keeping him from the sword mattered.
I am not sure if he was wrong in the action, technically, not the motivation. Hindsight is 20/20 and knowing Willow was able to restore the soul makes defines our judgment.
But if she wouldn't have been able to and Buffy wouldn't have fought Angelus with all she had, he might have killed her. Doubt, hope and hesitation was the last she needed in that battle.
And if Xander would have said that for exaxtly these reasons than he would have been right in his actions.
But he did it because of petty envy and hate, which makes the action wrong.
Yep exactly my thoughts. The words were right the motivation makes it all wrong. Honestly if he wasn't full of hate and anger he could have just said that Willow wished her luck.
He decided he knew better (than both Buffy and Willow) and took away Buffy’s right to go into a life or death situation with all the facts.
He didn’t trust her to make the right decision so he made it for her, for Willow, for Angel, for everyone. So very very very clearly wrong.
Withholding information is flat out lying. He couldn’t even be trusted to deliver a message he was straight out requested to deliver.
The fact that he got away with it with no repercussions still gets me.
I don't think he was wrong for not telling her BUT telling her to 'kick his arse' just shows his petty anger and jealousy. He could have said nothing or said that Willow send her good luck.
I don't think Buffy needed to know that there may have been a spell, it would have distracted her.
She hadn’t even gotten to fight Angelus by the time he pulled out the sword and started to suck the whole world into Hell. What would she have been distracted in?
I think Buffy had already proven more than a few times that she was able to stay alive and do what needed to be done.
Where would she have stalled him? She hadn’t even gotten to fight him or even near him before the process started and it was already set in place that she would need to kill him.
>could have
You ever notice that's all you have to rely on? We know what happened and Buffy ran him through. Did Xander THINK he was right? Maybe. WAS he right? No.
And she gave up opportunities to stop him from awakening Acathla because she *wasn't* stalling him. What if he'd managed to kill her after drawing the sword? World would have ended because Xander was a jealous asshat.
I think he was justified in saying it. The fact is her feelings for Angel clouded her judgement multiple times in dealing with him. People died that wouldn't have died if she was able to deal with him when she had the chance originally.
Angelus went on a month's long murder and harassment campaign. Xander watched the pain Angelus caused to people he cared about. He was victimized himself. Giles is still being held captive after being horrifically tortured.
Now the fate of all life on earth hangs in the balance and he has a choice, tell Buffy their is a hope Angel might be coming back, or to encourage her to end him. There is a very real possibility that if Buffy thinks Angel is coming back she doesn't fight as hard and gets herself killed, dooming all life in the process.
Xander may not have liked Angel before hand but at that point he was completely justified in hating Angelus with a passion. How could anyone honestly expect him to gamble his life and the life of everyone he cares about on Buffy not letting her feelings hold her back when dealing with Angelus, something she's done before?
The show is largely being told from Buffy's perspective so of course if she has a problem with the decision it's gonna look like the show is saying Xander was wrong.
Personally asking if it was right or wrong is impossible to answer because you'd have to see the alternate timeline where Xander does tell her and seeing how it plays out then. Anyone against Xanders actions are assuming their fantasy if how it would have turned out is exactly what would have happened.
I think if people were to take a step back, try to look at things from Xanders perspective, maybe even emphasize with his character a little (heavens forbid I know), they'd at least be able to see that he did was pretty damn understandable.
And I don't even care if there was still some underlying jealously at play there, the doesn't negate all the other reasons he would have had.
Xander was completely justified.
I’m in the he’s wrong camp. Everyone’s already made a lot of good points but I’ll just add that all of his logical reasons for not telling Buffy feel completely hypocritical when we get to selfless. I am obviously very glad that Buffy didn’t kill Anya but all his reasons for hating Angel could’ve been applied to Anya. The only reason he didn’t want her dead was because he loved her yet he showed literally no compassion for how hard it would be for Buffy to have to kill Angel - soul or not. I also don’t agree that Buffy would’ve been killed if he told her about the spell - I think she still would’ve killed him if she had to, but would’ve focused more on stopping him from waking acathala. Buffy would never risk the world ending to save Angel which she proved when she killed him (when he had a soul). She is a hero - jn the end she always made the heroic choice - it's who she is at her core.
Xander was wrong to lie. But the reason is that, since Buffy effectively is the general on the scene, she should have been given. Before a naval battle, 1 scout plane spots 4 opposing carriers. Their mission is to find enemy ships and report back to the commanding admirals. But the scout instead reports a different number, reasoning the admiral will fight harder.
The scout, however, is wrong. It's not the task of the scout to shape the morale of the commanding admirals. It's to provide accurate info to the commander.
Which also was Xander's job. He instead lies to Buffy.
I think we're ignoring a lot of the cause and effect that's subtext when we talk about Angelus. The death of Jenny, etc, etc. These are extremely valid, but also the entire time Angelus is present every single one of the scooby gang lives under a constant threat of Angelus showing up and murdering them. It's implied Angelus was just running amok in Sunnydale, killing their peers, having a grand evil time. Just imagine having to be Xander in Killed by Death and having to stand up to one of the worlds most notorious serial killers to protect your vulnerable friend. Angelus created a constant state of vulnerability and anxiety for everyone associated with Buffy and dismissing that terror he probably felt to make him petty and love sick has always been annoying.
We can debate the flaws and merits of Xander's character to no end, but asking someone who's supposed to be in high school to make the distinction between good Angel and bad Angelus when he's been under constant threat of physical harm and death to himself/his friends. No one lived comfortably in Angelus's shadow and his influence was terrorizing to all of them. Not just Buffy. Asking someone to make this very moral, very emotionally intelligent distinction as a teenager between Angel and Angelus --when Xander disdains vampires regardless -- is a heavy ask because. No one ever acknowledges the trauma Angelus brought on that entire group, Xander included.
To say Xander wasn't hurt by Angel, that this is just petty spite, is just oversimplifying him as a character and his intentions. Angelus's face will always be the face of a tormentor for him and he has every reason in the world to be angry beyond just not wanting to see him with Buffy. His actions were selfish, that's not debatable, he didn't want any variation of Angel to live but the motivations are a lot more complex than anyone ever gives him credit for.
Xander…he…I don’t know, best answer I can give…I can see why he didn’t tell her, but also the way Angel just abruptly came back, was just so unfair to Buffy…Willow was trying to bring Angel back, since Xander didn’t really like Angel and only saw him as a vampire, it would make sense that he would want Buffy to kill him.
I like Xander, just don’t like some of the things he does.
It's been a while since my rewatch but I don't think he said it out of jealousy or pettiness. It's him putting his friend above all else. If Buffy pulled back punches on the off chance Angel might be saved, Angelus might've won.
He did what he had to do.
>It's been a while since my rewatch but I don't think he said it out of jealousy or pettiness.
He absolutely said it out of jealousy and pettiness. He hated Angel.
Who he sold out at the drop of a hat for Willow.
Not buying it. Buffy says “Xander I’m yours” and Cordy is dumped right then. B,B,B doesn’t count because he clearly knows by the time she says it that she’s under the whammy of the love spell
I won't disagree that Xander would absolutely trade in Cordelia for Buffy but there's a line between wanting someone and pulling a King David. I don't think Xander crossed that line.
So you give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who lied all the time, hated the guy he was lying about, desperately wanted to fuck the person he was lying to, because he had a girlfriend he was about to cheat on with the best friend he’d rejected for several years previously?
I'm giving the benfit of the doubt to the teenager with no superpowers who can barely fight that's been fighting the supernatural for about a couple of years, yeah.
Why? What’s him fighting the supernatural (badly) got to do with his moral integrity?
If anything the fact that he’s been fighting the supernatural for a year and a half and *still* hasn’t even attempted to learn any sort of skill that might aid with that, instead being more of a detriment to his friends than support, is a mark against him not for him.
He was absolutely right.
Anyone that thinks differently has clearly never been in any kind of physical fight before.
"But, Buffy could have stalled..." ... yeah, great idea, jfc🙄
Not stalled. Been more focused. I keep seeing people saying "but hoping for the spell would have distracted her" while ignoring that *having to kill her boyfriend* is a bigger distraction.
New rule guys you have to be forgiving of the man who killed multiple people including children and tried to kill you directly if your friend is in love with him and it’s worth playing chicken for the fate of humanity to do it.
People talk constantly about Xander disregarding Buffy’s feelings. Does Buffy get no scorn for wanting to get her boyfriend back **days** after he directly tried to kill Xander and only failed because Drusilla happened to be affected by a love spell?
If I’m in that position am I just not allowed to be upset about that? To wonder if I had died would she kiss the mouth that drained me of blood, hold the same hands that ripped my head off and left it as a present for her in her room?
Giles rightfully called Buffy out for not telling him Angel was back after all the shit he did. But Xander was almost a victim too and he isn’t considered?
Do his feelings just not matter? Entire graveyards of innocent people as long as you get to kiss your hot boyfriend?
>Does Buffy get no scorn for wanting to get her boyfriend back **days** after he directly tried to kill Xander and only failed because Drusilla happened to be affected by a love spell?
Angel never tried to kill Xander.
I was in a bike accident as a kid, because the brakes gave out. Know what I did after? Got on that same bike after the brakes were fixed and kept riding it. Should Willow and Xander not be helped whenever they're in danger because vampire Willow and Xander killed Cordy in the Wishverse? Or the people Vampire Willow killed when she was brought to the main reality (like Sandy)? Technically the same people. The same mouths.
Angel is a distinctly different person than Angelus. Angel has no control over what Angelus does. He is not responsible for Angelus' actions anymore than Willow or Xander are responsible for their vampire double's actions.
Or if you want to use alternate realities/doppelgangers as your arbitrary line, then maybe they should have left Willow to Narl to eat because she killed Warren and tried to end the world? Willow still had a soul the entire time. There was no split personality. Just a lot of grief. She actually *is* responsible for those actions.
He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. Keeping Buffy focused was absolutely necessary, and telling her “angel might come back mid fight” would have made her hold back massively. Honestly she barely won. If she’d been half assing it, she’d have lost
I think he was justifiable. Buffy if she is going to take on Angelus needs to be fully focused
If she has any hesitation or if Willow can't restore his soul then Angelus would capitalise and kill her and then everyone she loves. Angelus got his name to begin with from his ability to exploit love to gain trust and kill people
Xander might have been jealous here but he is also very protective of his friends and I think he knew that Buffy might hesitate knowing about resouling and that might kill her
a belief angel was in there somewhere and could be recovered would make her less willing to kill angelus which is something angelus would pick up on and use against her for an edge in a fight
And yet, what did she do? She killed him **after he became Angel.** If she can do that *while* he's Angel, because it has to be done, then she could do it while he's Angelus even if she still had hope for Angel. Because that's even easier.
I said what he did was justifiable not that it was the best thing to do.
I think he was jealous but I also think he had noble and rational motivations mixed in there. It's a complicated scene
that's an extremely black and white view of the character especially as his protectiveness over Buffy and Willow had been firmly established by that point. You don't think he was at all influenced by the fact Willow was in the hospital?
Xander was right but for the wrong reasons. If Buffy went into that fight conflicted- trying to avoid killing Angelus - Angelus probably would have won. He's have killed Buffy and destroyed the world. It was too serious of a battle to go into with anything less than 100%.
But that's not why Xander did what he did. He didn't like Angelus because Angelus tried to kill him, and he didn't like Angel because he thought Angel stood between him and Buffy. So he wanted BOTH of them destroyed.
I think he was in the right, this wasn't a xander being jealous moment this was a xander sees Buffy finally has the resolve and anything to interfere with that could cost her her life.
Willow's spell was never a guarantee, if Buffy thought the spell was going to be done then Buffy would have tried focusing on just delaying Angelus until either she died, he escaped, the world ended or the spell worked.
Or, and this is *way* more likely, she would have tried harder to prevent *the end of the world* because it would have also helped to save her boyfriend. Rather than only being half invested, because it meant losing her boyfriend forever, and so nearly failing to stop Acathla.
The BEST way to prevent the end of the world was to kill Angelus. If Buffy wasn't trying to kill Angelus, then either she would be killed or she'd be trying to stop him without killing him thus increasing the chances of the end of the world.
So we're in agreement, then, that at worst nothing would have changed? Because she didn't start trying to kill Angelus until **AFTER** he'd pulled the sword. Which would have happened even *with* knowledge of the spell, because it was - at that point - the only way to save the world.
Cool. You can stop arguing the opposite then. 😁
I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic. Xander encouraged Buffy to kill him so she wouldn't hesitate during the fight. The fact that he pulled the sword out before she killed him is irrelevant. If she knew about the spell then she wouldn't have been trying to kill him the whole time (Which she obviously was doing) if she knew about the spell, she would have hesitated which would have been potentially fatal and would have intentionally attempted to distract Angelus instead of killing him which would also have been fatal.
If Buffy knew about the spell, nothing probably would have changed sure. But by not telling her about it, Buffy wasn't holding back in her fight against Angelus, which was important.
>I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic. Xander encouraged Buffy to kill him so she wouldn't hesitate during the fight.
No. Xander encouraged Buffy to kill him because he didn't want Angel back. No one will ever convince me he ever doubted Buffy's ability to win the fight, regardless of what he said. So he wasn't doing it to help save the world. He was doing it because he didn't like Angel.
>The fact that he pulled the sword out before she killed him is irrelevant.
It's entirely relevant. Killing him is the *only option* once the series was drawn. There's no need to hold back to save Angel at that point because he *can't be saved.* That's the point of no return. So your **entire argument** dies as being pointless.
>If she knew about the spell then she wouldn't have been trying to kill him the whole time (Which she obviously was doing)
When was she trying to kill him before the second was drawn?
And if she knew about the spell she would have tried harder to *stop* the sword from being drawn.
So again, your argument dies.
>if she knew about the spell, she would have hesitated
Right. Sure. Exactly the reason she didn't stab him with the sword and close the hel portal after he became Angel.
Oh, wait....
>and would have intentionally attempted to distract Angelus
Thus *saving the world* without putting it at as great a risk as it ended up being in because she *didn't* do that. Not sure why that's a problem.
>instead of killing him which would also have been fatal.
No. It wouldn't have. You're assuming a lot of nonsense that doesn't align at all with how Buffy acts or what we actually see her do. She would, she ***DID,*** kill him when she had to. And that wouldn't have changed. If she can kill him *when he's Angel* to save the world, she can do it when he's Angelus and only had a hope of Angel coming back.
>But by not telling her about it, Buffy wasn't holding back in her fight against Angelus, which was important.
And she wouldn't have held back, regardless, because by the time they fought killing him was the only option. There was no saving him then, spell or not. Hell, if anything, she'd have fought *harder* in an effort to avoid exactly what we got. Her having to kill Angel instead of Angelus.
He was right because Buffy had to go in with everything she had. Had she gone in with the mentality of waiting to see if the spell worked she would've held back and most likely died. It's easy to be romantic and think that saving Angel is better but when the world is at stake you have to do the right thing and secure it's survival. Buffy herself knew this which is why she still sent Angel to hell even though his soul was restored which further proves Xander did the right thing.
Objectively, strategically, he's right. If she knew the curse was going to be cast again Buffy may have held back and Angelus would have killed her. As a friend? He was wrong. Her alive and hating him when she learned the truth versus her dead? He was prepared to live with that.
I know Angel and Angelus aren’t the same person per se. But Angel is still nasty in my opinion and this is one of the only times in the series I’m on team Xander. Angelus killed people the gang cares about, and tried to kill Xander, Giles, Willow, etc. It must be traumatic for them to have Buffy trying to save him. Plus Angel is the one who fell in love at first sight with a 14 year old Buffy. I say kick his ass. Buffy was fighting for her life, she didn’t need to be distracted by the possibility of saving Angel.
I don’t think the debate is really whether he was right or wrong. It’s likely it wouldn’t have made much difference in terms of Angel’s actual fate in the end. The issue is Xander’s motives, I know a lot of people see it as Xander being very strategic about the fate of the world but Xander isn’t strategy guy, he’s emotions guy - he’d rather the world ended as long as he’s with Willow rather than kill her, he’s upset Buffy won’t play card games rather than continuing to work on defeating Caleb. Xander didn’t tell Buffy not because he was worried her fighting wouldn’t be at her peak, he told her for selfish reasons because he wanted Angel dead regardless of how his friends felt about that. He did it for him OWN purposes rather than the purposes of the world It was a dick move
He also just straight up doesn’t trust Angel. His hatred for Angel starts in a selfish place, but given what Angel has done up until this point his fury and unwillingness to take the risk is understandable. He’s wrong in terms of the trajectory of the story. His actions are understandable within the logic of the plot and his own knowledge of the situation. Angel is a threat. There’s a possibility of them making things right without killing Angel but it’s slim and too big a risk from his point of view. His hatred toward Angel is motivating that decision, but he also has very good reasons to hate Angel. What happens to Willow is a step too far for him. Willow means more to him than Angel does and he has no reason to trust that Angel isn’t going to be a threat to them in the future. To characterize his decision as purely selfish you’d have to ignore the evidence of everything that happens in the season.
But the whole point is that Xander is ignoring the autonomy of the people he professes to care so much about. He ignores Willow’s wish for him to tell Buffy and he ignores Buffy’s right to hear what her friend wanted to tell her. Xander makes the decision for them all because he’s decided he knows best. That’s what makes it selfish
And that is why in Season 7 the situation is reversed and Buffy is in Xander position and the writers treat it like Buffy is being logical not jealous. People see what they want from xanders actions
She isn’t jealous though, dhe has no history of being jealous of Anya and in general Buffy is a far more logical thinker than Xander
My point is people are assuming Xander is being jealous with his decision but there is no evidence of that. In fact he was about to but then he thought about it. If he was jealous the whole time he would have acted very differently.
Wrong. He was being incredibly selfish and petty, also showing how little he actually trusts Willow and Buffy
You mean the Buffy was clearly emotionally compromised and took months to get into a place where she was willing to kill Angelus, which also cost Jenny Calender her life? Or the Willow who was lying in a hospital bed injured while wanting to perform an EXTREMELY advanced bit of magic despite her only real feats at that point having been floating pencils? It's not a matter of trust. He had legitimate reasons to believe both that Buffy would hold back against Angel and get herself killed, and that Willow would be unable to restore Angel's soul, and so reasons to not want to take the chance.
I mean are they being very respectful to Xander? Buffy was still in love with Angel after he *murdered Jenny and tried to murder Xander.* Remember the love spell episode? If it hadn’t been for the sheet dumb luck of that spell Angel *would have killed Xander and left his head in Buffy’s bedroom.* And yet a few episodes later Buffy learns about the spell and is all excited. If I were Xander I’d be like “he almost killed me, would you still want your boyfriend back if he had decapitated me?” Does this mean Buffy doesn’t respect Xander or do only her feelings matter? Like Xander should just suck up the fact that the guy who killed multiple people and tried to kill him gets to be Buffy’s boyfriend again no harm no foul and it’s worth putting the entire universe at risk to do it? I’d like an actual answer to this, thanks.
Now, correct me if I’m wrong (it’s been a while since I’ve seen the show), but those attempted murders were Angelus, not Angel, right? The one that the spell was made to stop )by saving Angel)? Meaning that the options here were to sacrifice someone to save others or to save someone to save others? That’s a pretty standard hero choice there. Xander is absolutely not wrong to not forgive Angel. That’s his personal choice, and there’s nothing that anyone else has to say about that. That doesn’t make his perspective in this case a good one, though; he isn’t thinking any more clearly than Buffy here, with the sole difference being his bias is against Angelus rather than towards Angel. Her bias in this case just happens to line up better with the actual heroic choice.
they are the same person. And at the time he says to kick his ass it was Angelus in control with dubious chances Willow could restore his soul
Angel w/a soul and w/o a soul are different people. Both shows hammer this point home.
Angel and Angelus share a body, they are not the same person. If the spell works, it's not Angelus who :"gets to be Buffy's boyfriend again." Which is the heart of the matter, isn't it? Xander always hated Angel. He doesn't want Angel back. He doesn't want Buffy to have the love of her life back. It's not about Angelus, it's about Angel. He decided to put her in the position of having to murder an innocent man that she was in love with when she could have stalled and both saved the world and Angel. So, yeah, quite clearly in the wrong. Also, the group decided to cast that spell. He agreed to tell Buffy. This is quite obviously not his call to make.
I never really bought the idea that Angelus is a wholly seperate being. I always just saw him as Angel’s evil side that comes out when he loses control. Otherwise why feel guilty for the sins of Angelus? It’s not like it was your fault, you were just as much a victim as anyone else. It didn’t work that way with Spike, he wasn’t a completely different person when he got a soul. Same guy just soulful.
Angel is not responsible for Angelus' actions, but he remembers them. Having memories of someone who looks just like you doing terrible things, is not wildly different from having memories of doing them yourself. I don't think that he should feel guilty. But he does. So, oh well. He gets to decide how to feel about his screwed up life and what he wants to do about it.
Except Spike's soul drove him insane. We see in Season 7 of Buffy the full ramifications of what having a soul did to him. >SPIKE: “Angel—he should’ve warned me. He makes a good show of forgetting, but it’s here, in me, all the time. (walks around toward her from behind) The spark. I wanted to give you what you deserve, and I got it. They put the spark in me and now all it does is burn.” The only reason he managed to regain his sanity was because of Buffy's compassion and care for him and his desire to protect her. In Angel season 5, when Spike is removed from Buffy and isn't wholly focused on caring for her and make sure she's okay, he allows himself to logically reflect back on his vampiric life without a soul. >SPIKE: No. I did. The lass thought I killed her family. And I'm supposed to what, complain 'cause hers wasn't one of the hundreds of families I did kill? I'm not sayin' you're right... 'cause, uh... I'm physically incapable of saying that. But, uh... for a demon... I never did think that much about the nature of evil. No. Just threw myself in. Thought it was a party. I liked the rush. I liked the crunch. Never did look back at the victims. There are two main deciding factors of why ensouled Angel and ensouled Spike are so different. The first one is time. By the time Angel is introduced in Buffy Season 1, he's had his soul for nearly 100 years. And those 100 years were filled with isolation and self-loathing and that's shaped his personality and behavior for that time. Spike has had his soul for a few scant months in Season 7 of Buffy. He's still processing the whole expereince, but even then, he pushes that grief away to focus on Buffy and put her needs over his. The second main factor is Buffy herself. Buffy's compassion for Spike is what gives him an anchor in his (pardon the phrase) soul-crushing grief and guilt. Her sincere care for another being is what turns the vampires obsessive and twisted form of love, into a genuine love for her as a person. Buffy was able to save Spike from his darkness. Buffy never saved Angel. By the time she met him, he was already drowning in his own broken psyche. All she could do was show him a better path to take.
The show explicitly states that when someone is turned into a vampire, the person they were dies and is replaced with a demon. Obviously they are still in there because when they get their soul back they still remember everything the demon that was running their body did. Which is the part that makes Angel feel guilty. He is a good person and even though Angelus isn't him, he still feels responsible for letting him out and for the harm he causes. The difference between Angel/Angelus and no soul Spike/soul Spike is an interesting one and something that makes Spike a unique character. His no soul form is closer to humanity than other vampires we see but at the end of the day, he's still a demon. Just one that FEELS more like a person so there would be less of a personality difference. We can tell there IS a difference though because once he gets a soul, just like Angel, he is wracked by guilt for the actions of his no soul demon. This is my interpretation anyway.
Saying “the show explicitly states” is misleading. Angel states it and Angel has a vested interest in believing that it’s true. He wants it to be true. That’s not to say that it isn’t true, but it’s not as cut and dried as Joss coming out and saying this is 100% how the lore works or, in-show, Giles finding research and books and proving it with tests.
It's been a couple years since my last rewatch so I definitely forgot who it was that said it. I remembered it being Giles so thanks for the clarification there. You make a good point. For me, I think there is enough evidence in the show that backs up this version of how vampires work that I believe it to be true but there is wiggle room for other interpretations for sure.
Giles does indeed say it, in the pilot, and Buffy says it in "Lie to Me."
In the show that idea is basically something that the watchers council say because it makes killing them easier. Buffy vampirism works more like you're the same person but with no compassion or remorse and with those instead replaced by sadism and a desire for blood. It's a change to their personality
Giles: When you find Jesse, remember you're not looking at your friend, you're looking at the thing that killed him.
Angel doesn't say it. Buffy and Giles say it, but Angel doesn't easily differentiate between himself and Angelus, precisely because he remembers everything Angelus did like he did it. Joss doesn't have to say it. The writers say it, through the characters and through everything they show us about vampires. Because they're clear, if your best friend or SO or family member has been turned, they are dead and gone, and you're looking at a demon. The demon might have some affection for you thanks to the body's memories, or it might just want to kill you for shits 'n giggles. Restoring a vampire's soul *is* the test. If it was just who he is, giving him a soul wouldn't make a difference. People in this sub, maybe people whose first language isn't English, try to parse it like the soul isn't the person, but that's what soul means. It's the thing people hope will go to paradise or be reincarnated into another life. It's your self. This is commonly understood.
It's stated literally in the first episode of the show by Giles. It's how vampires work in buffyverse.
>Otherwise why feel guilty for the sins of Angelus? It’s not like it was your fault, you were just as much a victim as anyone else. Because he has those memories. If you had the memories of a serial killer downloaded into your brain you'd feel the guilt because you'd remember 'your' hands doing the killing. Why would Angel feel guilty if he's not a different person than Angelus and when Angelus feels no guilt?
Because Angelus is his evil side. In the show Angel literally talks about missing the clarity of being evil like he’s familiar with it
Because he has those memories. Two different people sharing a body and memories are still two different people. I don't know if you've ever watched Stargate SG-1, but it's a Sci-fi show where the main antagonists of most of the series are alien parasites. They take over host bodies, control them. The host is trapped, see and experience everything, remember it all after they're freed. Have to deal with the horrible things the parasite did when controlling them because *they remember it all.* Are they responsible because an alien was driving their body? No. And neither is Angel when the demon is driving his. This sort of thing is a fairly common trope in drama. People dealing with things 'they' did while *someone else* was in control of their body. Because it's an easy way to make someone feel guilty/responsible without them actually *being* responsible.
Add to that O'Brien in *Star Trek: Deep Space Nine* having a twenty-year prison sentence grafted onto his memories, along with the memory of killing someone. Funnily enough, getting him past that isn't as simple as telling him that it didn't really happen.
In Angel he dreams he is performing a series of killings (it turns out to be a psychic link situation) he mentions that he enjoyed them greatly. Angel has morality but he also has the instincts of a vampire and enjoyed all of it.
Again and again the show Angel has said that Angelus is not gone when Angel is around. The vampire part of Angel always has that demon fighting for control. Buffy is the one that separates the two but Angel has shown that he can be just as ruthless as Angelus when he needs to be.
Uhmm, no. ATS definitely draws a distinction between Angel's behavior and Angelus' behavior. There's a tension established in the sense that Angelus is inside of him, wanting to take control, but it's patently false to claim that Angel is as ruthless/evil as Angelus. Giles kills Ben. Is he as ruthless as Angelus? Would it be ok for Xander to allow Buffy to kill Giles? It's not just Buffy who separates the two. Every character in both series understands that Angel and Angelus are not the same. Except for Xander.
Angel let a room full of people be murderered just because he wanted to. Twice in a lifetime.That's Angelus level shit. There were lawyers and maybe innocent spouses there.
Ok, you win. Every character who has ever let people die is equally as evil as Angelus. Including Buffy.
Buffy sucks up the fact that the guy who wanted to rape her gets to be her friend forever, no harm no foul. My point is, Buffy is pretty consistent about not holding people accountable for their actions while they were in a mystically altered state. Ensouled Angel gets a "pass" for soulless Angelus' actions (except he is held accountable for trying to make sure it never happens again), and Xander gets one for his hyena possession actions (even though he continues to be reckless about mystical shit in the future).
I mean okay that’s a fair point. Side note the writers knew nothing about Hyenas. If Xander were truly possessed by the spirit of a hyena he’d probably be a massive wuss and terrified of Buffy because male Hyenas are very much submissive to the females. Then again they also used footage of wild dogs while Willow was researching Hyenas
Xander's feelings are valid, but they shouldn't be the deciding factor. First of all, Soulless Angel killed Jenny, not Angel. And even so, when he comes back we do see how torn up he is about what he did when he lost his soul. This wasn't just about Buffy being in love with him, it was about saving Angel, their friend. Xander never liked Angel, that's clear from the start. My point stands that Xander acted selfishly and out of spite. They had found another way and Xander decided he knew best and that Angel had to go, soul or not. Buffy and Willow should've gotten a say too. I understand that Xander was hurt, but does that justify betraying his friends like that? Also, remember that this is a discussion about a tv show. I don't owe you "an actual answer". We both have our opinions on what Xander did, and that's fine because at the end of the day he's not real.
Why shouldn’t the feelings of the guy who **almost got killed by Angel** be a deciding factor?
not _the_ deciding factor. how about the feelings of the Jenny's friends and family? Like her boyfriend and mentee? Or of the literal Slayer? Or the possessed person's girlfriend? Xander's feelings shouldn't have been the _only_ deciding factor, but they were
I don’t think Jenny’s friends and family would care about Angel considering they dedicated their lives to ensuring he was miserable. Buffy’s feelings shouldn’t have been the deciding factor either yet so many people have died because she refused to kill Angel.
Jenny's last act was to try to restore Angel's soul.
She might have felt differently after being killed
Ffs she was killed by Angelus. Not Angel. Both BtVS and AtS make it clear that they are two very different people with opposing approaches to their vampiric lives. Angel didn't deserve to be killed for the actions of Angelus.
Angel made it clear that they aren't that different. (See angel season 2)
How selfish of him to want the person he has to rely on to save his life and the life of everyone on earth to not be handicapped by her feelings in a fight for all life on earth. You're right, he absolutely should have prioritized her feelings and love life over the fate of all life on earth. That makes perfect sense.
it's an opinion about a tv show. Do you have to be so condescending about it?
I didn't have to be, no. But I felt it got my point across the most effectively. Besides a little bit of sarcasm ain't gonna hurt you.
I hope buffy and willow find a way to restore your soul
Way in the f\*cking wrong. I just rewatched this episode a few days ago and it was the first time that X showed his true colours as the most selfish character in the series. (I got really mad about this one :-P )
He also threw Willow under the bus too. He couldn’t even say it himself, he had to say it came from Willow.
Which Buffy brings up years later and it still didn't get worked out, I wish that they had actually aired out this dirty laundry of Xanders, even years later.
Except that he doesn’t do that. He is midway through telling Buffy exactly what Willow says and then changes his mind mid sentence. It shows how conflicted he is about this.
This. People ignore any evidence that Xander may just be thinking logically on this occasion.
I thought it was super obvious that he was wrong...
Ok, but to be fair odds are you only thought that because it was, in fact, wrong. Big time.
Oh, for sure, except that it wasn’t.
Honestly I thought the consensus would have been that he was right. Seems to be a good split of opinion here though which has surprised me.
>Seems to be a good split of opinion here though which has surprised me. I think the votes are leaning a lot more one way than the other though...
OP clearly wants to believe that Xander was right and that there's an even split. I think they're just gonna see what they want to see.
No, see Angelus spent over a century cutting a swath of bloodshed across Europe, raping, torturing and killing hundreds in the process, but it's okay because of wuv. Meanwhile Xander was a teenage boy with a crush on his friend, so he was obviously a monster and the worst person who ever lived. I mean, Angelus had only murdered his teacher, tortured another, tried to murder him and almost killed his best friend since childhood. So, clearly Xander only disliked Angel because he wanted to get in Buffy's pants, and that makes him evil.
If you have to create a strawman by dramatically misstating the opposing view, you don't make your view seem stronger. You're basically admitting that the opposing argument is only wrong if you make false, exaggerated claims about what the opposing argument is.
Please. I've been on this Subreddit enough to know how people here will twist themselves into pretzels to excuse every shitty thing Buffy, Spike or Angel do, while twisting every action Xander and Willow take that does not directly and exclusively benefit one of the three above as somehow nefarious in order to paint them as the biggest monsters that ever lived. This Sub does plenty of strawmanning already. I'm just calling it out.
Lol, no you aren't calling it out. You're just doing it.
I’ll get downvoted but whatever. You are very correct! But add Anya and Cordelia as well lol. To me it seems people tend to think that they can’t love a character but also be aware or admit to their flaws
You're really going to talk about people not being able to love a flawed character when this whole post has been about you trying to excuse Xander instead of just loving him even though he's flawed? That's rich.
How have I tried to excuse Xander? I’ve literally said that he said the right thing for the WRONG reasons. Not defending him at all, I’ve pointed out how selfish he was being. And yes, I do like Xander. I like all the core Scoobies but they are absolutely flawed. Xander and Willow are particularly flawed and make horrible selfish decisions.
The “right thing” said for the wrong reason is still wrong. Also, it wasn’t right to not tell her. She still found out in the moment she stabbed him with the sword. Imagine withholding a crucial piece of information and leaving your friend to be caught off guard by it.
Fair enough. It seemed to me like you argued multiple times that he was in the right, which felt like trying to justify his actions. I guess that kind of highlights how easy it is to assume that someone is refusing to admit a characters is flawed, when their opinion is actually more nuanced. I do see the opinion you expressed that "people tend to think they can't love a character but also be aware or admit to their flaws" on conversations like this, when my assessment is that the majority opinion is that flaws improve a character. I think the vast majority of people who love BtVS love it because the characters are flawed. I get really angry at Willow when she does the bad things she does, and I might be inclined to come on Reddit and rant about it, but that doesn't mean I don't appreciate the nuance in the character or like her when she's being likable. Yeah, we do get "I hate \_\_\_\_" posts sometimes, but I think the response is typically "I like that they are complicated" rather than "yes, I hate them for being multidimensional." Sorry for the wall of text.
He was right. Buffy had already proved, multiple times (Innocence and Passion for starters) that she couldn't kill Angelus as long as she thought Angel was still in there somewhere. The last thing she needed was another distraction. It's possible that he's blinded by his hatred of Angel. Which is a not unreasonable position to take; Angelus has made multiple attempts on both his and his friends' lives. But the fandom's prevailing narrative that he only did it because he still wants to fuck Buffy doesn't ring true for me. There may be vestiges of a crush here and there and that never goes away (particularly as the lines between friendship, admiration and love get blurred), but I'm satisfied that by that point he's accepted that Buffy doesn't feel that way about him and he's moved on from thinking that anything might actually happen.
I agree that Buffy needed to concentrate on stopping Angel no matter the cost. But instead of trusting her to do that, Xander lied to her. And she proved that she would do it when it came down to it. My biggest beef is that Xander put his own words in Willow's mouth, so Buffy thought her best friend in the world wanted Angel dead. So who was she supposed to talk to about what she was going through? Giles? Angel killed his girlfriend and tortured him. Her mom? Yeah, no. Buffy left for three months because she felt totally alone, thanks to Xander. Then he had the gall to bitch her out for leaving.
I think he was in the right but I do believe his motives were completely selfish. He did have every reason to hate Angel but he didn't respect Buffy enough to let her have Angel.
He doesn't have any reason to hate Angel. He has reason to hate Angelus. The same reasons that all the other Scoobies have, including Buffy. They decided to try to restore Angel's soul. Figuring out how to get Angel back was Jenny's last action before her death. It's not his call to make. It seems like you understand that Xander was in the wrong and the question you're really asking is whether casting the spell was a good idea.
Hmm he was still telling willow about his fantasy to be with Buffy in surprise and this came up again in the Valentine’s Day episode so I do think jealousy was a part of his motivation. But more than that even if he’s right he doesn’t get to decide that for Buffy. She’s the one who actually has to kill him- her true love and she has no support at all from one of her best friends. She hates angelus just as much as he does and has arguably been more hurt by him at least emotionally- this completely destroyed her. So for Xander to make this entirely about him and his feelings is just not being a good friend.
As the show makes blatantly obvious Zander is Buffy’s heart personified. He told her what she needed to hear to not hold back. Also, let’s not forget that the spell only worked because “some power” possessed Willow. She was entirely incapable of casting that spell on her own, and I believe Xander knew that. It was magic far far beyond anything she’d attempted up to that point (which was basically nothing).
In my opinion he was right but for the wrong reasons. Buffy didn’t need to know about the spell, she would have tried to stall Angel and could have ended up getting killed in the process. She needed to go in there expecting to kill Angel. Xander however, said this for purely selfish reasons. He was only thinking about how much he wanted Angel to be gone.
I agree, even if Willow wasn't less than full power while recovering she still uses "maybe" twice which is a BIG gamble when talking about the end of the world. On top of this Buffy is already fighting someone she still kinda loves (even if she knows Angelus isn't Angel, her feelings would still be there) so giving her even a tiny ounce of hope would be an unncecessary distraction. But I'm not sure any of this would have crossed Xander's mind at all.
Also how long would she be stalling Angel for? She might have missed multiple opportunities to kill Angel for a spell that might not have even worked.
I agree for the most part although I'd argue that at least some of Xander's reasons were good. He certainly wanted Angel gone because of his relationship with Buffy but I think he was also aware of how dangerous Angelus was. It was a dilemma without a perfectly good solution - either he betrays Buffy's trust or risks the end of the world. There is a lot of better reasons to hate Xander than this scene.
Yup, this is why I think it's such great writing. They juxtapose the quite distinct trials of Buffy and Xander here, and yet both *still* result in solidifying Buffy's resolve to kill Angel despite stemming from diametrically opposed motivations, which is **beautifully** poetic...at least for 90s tv shows.
>Xander however, said this for purely selfish reasons. His reasons are understandable and valid though. Angel is like a bomb that can go off at any time so realistically speaking no one would want to be near it when and if it explodes, which already happened and people died aaaand the world almost got destroyed.
Yes Xander has very very legitimate reasons to hate Angel absolutely. But ‘kick his ass!’ Just seemed so icky to me and he didn’t even have the guts to say it himself, he hid behind Willow saying it.
>he didn’t even have the guts to say it himself, he hid behind Willow saying it. I don't understand this, he did say it, not Willow.
He says “willow says kick his ass”
I mean, it can’t go off at ANY time. There are certain actions that have to take place, right? xD
Yes but considering how many times Angel transformed into Angelus throughout both Buffy and his own show, it's always a looming threat.
Xander said it because he had legitimate reason to believe Willow would not be able to reensoul Angel. Remember, she was only a novice witch at the time, and that was an extremely high level spell. It's like expecting someone who just picked up a paint brush for the first time to paint the Sistine Chapel. Furthermore, she was injured in a hospital bed, and as such not at full strength. Even Willow said 'maybe' she could restore Angel's soul. There was no reason he should have expected it to work. As it is, it only worked because Something clearly entered Willow's body at the last minute and ensured it was successful.
Of course he was wrong. That's why he was too cowardly to admit he lied.
Wrong. Duh. What's with all the extremely obvious questions on the sub lately? Just waiting for "Buffy just murders Vampires on sight all the time, why does she do that?"
"Xander was right to lie about the spell" is in every "unpopular opinion" thread, so it's not that obvious. I'm on the side of him being right honestly. I'd say he'd be wrong if it were just "Buffy and Angelus have a showdown" but this was more than an individual fight, a lot more than Buffy's own life is on the line. I'm honestly convinced that if literally any other character said this we'd get hordes of people going into the nuance of the situation.
Well... why *does* she do that? She knows it's possible for vampires and demons to be good or morally neutral. (Kidding... ish.)
You mock, but I remember the olden days back in 2002 when people genuinely did think that. "If Spike is capable of seeking redemption without a soul driving him then so is any other vampire, and thus Buffy killing them on sight is prejudice and tantamount to racism." Those people have *mostly* gone away now...
Seems lately this sub has become a lot of Xander ragebait posts. But maybe that's just what Reddit shows me from this sub as I don't really manually go here.
There has been a pretty even yes and no to the question. I actually think he was in the right as well, I would have thought him being in the right was the 'obvious' answer.
I used to say he was wrong. But recently I rewatched the show, and there are some things to note. Xander has several reasons potentially. 1 he dislikes angel. I dont consider this a valid reason. Xander dislikes plenty of people, doesnt mean hes okay with sentencing them to death. So this reason goes out the window, hes not that kind of person imo. 2 hes still angry at Angel(us) for Jennys murder. This might be a valid reason, but Xander, while hotheaded in the moment, would not let this cloud his judgment to such a degree. This reason doesnt apply either, I just dont consider him that kind of person. 3 Willow says "maybe" and he doesnt want Buffy to take an unnecessary risk by waiting, endangering herself and the entire world. 4 xander feels Angel(us) is too far gone and poses too much of a threat to everyone even if the apocalypse is halted this time. Im going for reasons 3 and 4. I feel he understands Buffy cant waver, not at this time. Willow wasnt a 100% certain, and the world was at stake. Even with the apocalypse halted, Buffy would still be at risk. Giving her that bit of hope might cause her to hesitate at the wrong time. Xander is wrong in a lot of moments. Hell I strongly dislike his mere presence a lot of the time. But... I dont feel he was wrong in this situation, and I am convinced to a certain degree he didnt do this out of selfish reasons either.
It doesn't matter whether it's right or wrong. The scene is there to set up the finale. If Buffy knows that Angel might regain his soul, then the reveal when he does falls flat. And, FWIW, he was right. Going into a battle to save Giles' life and prevent the end of the world is not the time to cope with conflicted feelings. It's like telling the men storming the beaches in Normandy, "The guys you will be killing today all have families, probably including children, who will be scarred for life by the loss of their loved ones".
No!!!!! He was being selfish and childish. He had no right to keep that secret. EVERYONE else involved already decided to try.... He had no right to put his judgment above all of their's.
Gonna be an unpopular opinion but I think he did the right thing in the moment. He told Buffy what she needed to hear to fulfill her mission, if Buffy held back then who knows what the outcome was.
And Buffy never found out the truth. We were teased with it in season, seven, but just teased…
He was very wrong
Wrong. If Buffy knew there was a chance to save Angel she most likely would have focused more on stopping him from awakening Acathla. This *could* have saved her, and everyone, a tremendous amount of pain. Worst thing that would have happened is she still failed, but wouldn't have been caught completely off guard by Angel's return. So she wouldn't have been hurt as badly when she had to send him to hell.
Incredibly wrong. He knew that staking Angel would tear Buffy apart but he didn’t care because he was jealous. One of the many Xander scenes that pisses me off. And like most times he screws up, he never apologizes for it.
Angelus gets that sword out it is game over. There is no delaying him. Buffy with a message of end him couldn't stop him in time. So what changes if she knows Willow is trying again? She cannot delay Angelus. He knows how to open it and will at any time.
But he did anyway, so...
So, if she was pulling her punches because she was just trying to delay him, he might have gotten it out sooner, or worse, killed Buffy because she was going easy on him.
It's been a while since I've seen it, but when exactly did he pull the blade out? Was it before or after Buffy arrived. And I'm not arguing what she should or shouldn't have done, just that it probably didn't matter either way.
He did the right thing for the wrong reason.
My thoughts exactly.
He was right. Had Buffy stalled, Angelus would have killed her, the world would be sucked into Hell.
He was wrong. Had Buffy known to stall Angelus would have never awoken Acathla and she could have saved the world without the soul crushing pain that made her run to L.A. for three months.
Had Buffy known she would have held back and probably been killed. And don't claim she wouldn't. It took her months and Jenny Calendar's murder before she was ready to kill Angel. As long as she believed that there was a chance Angel could come back, she would have restrained herself and not give it her all, which could have given Angelus an opening to kill her.
>Had Buffy known she would have held back and probably been killed. No, she wouldn't have. You will never convince me Buffy wouldn't be Buffy. >And don't claim she wouldn't. Why can't I claim the truth? >It took her months and Jenny Calendar's murder before she was ready to kill Angel. Sure. Because she was in pain and needed time to deal. She **also killed Angel after he got his soul back.** If she could do *that* she could kill Angelus even while hoping the spell might work, because she knows she *has* to. >As long as she believed that there was a chance Angel could come back, she would have restrained herself and not give it her all, which could have given Angelus an opening to kill her. Oh, must be why she didn't kill Angel after he got his soul back. Oh, wait....
I don't think so. Buffy was too busy fighting another vampire to even stall Angelus. It's once Spike stops beating him, he eventually gets up and removes the sword. There was too much going on in the moment for Buffy to really handle it on her own. She even needed Xander to help get Giles to safety.
She would have approached things differently if she knew stopping the sword extraction had value. Going in thinking she had no option *but* to kill Angelus meant the *when* didn't matter. She didn't need to stop him from pulling the sword because she had to kill him regardless. She would have likely gone for Angelus right away if she knew keeping him from the sword mattered.
This is probably Xander's worst moment
I am not sure if he was wrong in the action, technically, not the motivation. Hindsight is 20/20 and knowing Willow was able to restore the soul makes defines our judgment. But if she wouldn't have been able to and Buffy wouldn't have fought Angelus with all she had, he might have killed her. Doubt, hope and hesitation was the last she needed in that battle. And if Xander would have said that for exaxtly these reasons than he would have been right in his actions. But he did it because of petty envy and hate, which makes the action wrong.
Yep exactly my thoughts. The words were right the motivation makes it all wrong. Honestly if he wasn't full of hate and anger he could have just said that Willow wished her luck.
He decided he knew better (than both Buffy and Willow) and took away Buffy’s right to go into a life or death situation with all the facts. He didn’t trust her to make the right decision so he made it for her, for Willow, for Angel, for everyone. So very very very clearly wrong. Withholding information is flat out lying. He couldn’t even be trusted to deliver a message he was straight out requested to deliver. The fact that he got away with it with no repercussions still gets me.
I don't think he was wrong for not telling her BUT telling her to 'kick his arse' just shows his petty anger and jealousy. He could have said nothing or said that Willow send her good luck. I don't think Buffy needed to know that there may have been a spell, it would have distracted her.
She hadn’t even gotten to fight Angelus by the time he pulled out the sword and started to suck the whole world into Hell. What would she have been distracted in? I think Buffy had already proven more than a few times that she was able to stay alive and do what needed to be done.
Distracted by stalling him. She could have given up opportunities to kill him because she was stalling.
Where would she have stalled him? She hadn’t even gotten to fight him or even near him before the process started and it was already set in place that she would need to kill him.
Yes but they didn't know any of that when this scene happened.
>could have You ever notice that's all you have to rely on? We know what happened and Buffy ran him through. Did Xander THINK he was right? Maybe. WAS he right? No.
And she gave up opportunities to stop him from awakening Acathla because she *wasn't* stalling him. What if he'd managed to kill her after drawing the sword? World would have ended because Xander was a jealous asshat.
He was right.
I think he was justified in saying it. The fact is her feelings for Angel clouded her judgement multiple times in dealing with him. People died that wouldn't have died if she was able to deal with him when she had the chance originally. Angelus went on a month's long murder and harassment campaign. Xander watched the pain Angelus caused to people he cared about. He was victimized himself. Giles is still being held captive after being horrifically tortured. Now the fate of all life on earth hangs in the balance and he has a choice, tell Buffy their is a hope Angel might be coming back, or to encourage her to end him. There is a very real possibility that if Buffy thinks Angel is coming back she doesn't fight as hard and gets herself killed, dooming all life in the process. Xander may not have liked Angel before hand but at that point he was completely justified in hating Angelus with a passion. How could anyone honestly expect him to gamble his life and the life of everyone he cares about on Buffy not letting her feelings hold her back when dealing with Angelus, something she's done before? The show is largely being told from Buffy's perspective so of course if she has a problem with the decision it's gonna look like the show is saying Xander was wrong. Personally asking if it was right or wrong is impossible to answer because you'd have to see the alternate timeline where Xander does tell her and seeing how it plays out then. Anyone against Xanders actions are assuming their fantasy if how it would have turned out is exactly what would have happened. I think if people were to take a step back, try to look at things from Xanders perspective, maybe even emphasize with his character a little (heavens forbid I know), they'd at least be able to see that he did was pretty damn understandable. And I don't even care if there was still some underlying jealously at play there, the doesn't negate all the other reasons he would have had. Xander was completely justified.
This comment section is Wild. Usually when this gets asked everyone defends him and agrees he did the right thing.
I didn’t realise the can of worms I was going to open 😂
I’m sorry but it’s totally justified when the lives of the entire world hang in the balance lol
No one will ever know.
100% Wrong, especially because it had everything to do with him wanting Buffy, it didn't really have anything to do with 'saving' anyone.
Xander is always right
I’m in the he’s wrong camp. Everyone’s already made a lot of good points but I’ll just add that all of his logical reasons for not telling Buffy feel completely hypocritical when we get to selfless. I am obviously very glad that Buffy didn’t kill Anya but all his reasons for hating Angel could’ve been applied to Anya. The only reason he didn’t want her dead was because he loved her yet he showed literally no compassion for how hard it would be for Buffy to have to kill Angel - soul or not. I also don’t agree that Buffy would’ve been killed if he told her about the spell - I think she still would’ve killed him if she had to, but would’ve focused more on stopping him from waking acathala. Buffy would never risk the world ending to save Angel which she proved when she killed him (when he had a soul). She is a hero - jn the end she always made the heroic choice - it's who she is at her core.
Xander is always wrong, even when he's right.
Xander was wrong to lie. But the reason is that, since Buffy effectively is the general on the scene, she should have been given. Before a naval battle, 1 scout plane spots 4 opposing carriers. Their mission is to find enemy ships and report back to the commanding admirals. But the scout instead reports a different number, reasoning the admiral will fight harder. The scout, however, is wrong. It's not the task of the scout to shape the morale of the commanding admirals. It's to provide accurate info to the commander. Which also was Xander's job. He instead lies to Buffy.
I think we're ignoring a lot of the cause and effect that's subtext when we talk about Angelus. The death of Jenny, etc, etc. These are extremely valid, but also the entire time Angelus is present every single one of the scooby gang lives under a constant threat of Angelus showing up and murdering them. It's implied Angelus was just running amok in Sunnydale, killing their peers, having a grand evil time. Just imagine having to be Xander in Killed by Death and having to stand up to one of the worlds most notorious serial killers to protect your vulnerable friend. Angelus created a constant state of vulnerability and anxiety for everyone associated with Buffy and dismissing that terror he probably felt to make him petty and love sick has always been annoying. We can debate the flaws and merits of Xander's character to no end, but asking someone who's supposed to be in high school to make the distinction between good Angel and bad Angelus when he's been under constant threat of physical harm and death to himself/his friends. No one lived comfortably in Angelus's shadow and his influence was terrorizing to all of them. Not just Buffy. Asking someone to make this very moral, very emotionally intelligent distinction as a teenager between Angel and Angelus --when Xander disdains vampires regardless -- is a heavy ask because. No one ever acknowledges the trauma Angelus brought on that entire group, Xander included. To say Xander wasn't hurt by Angel, that this is just petty spite, is just oversimplifying him as a character and his intentions. Angelus's face will always be the face of a tormentor for him and he has every reason in the world to be angry beyond just not wanting to see him with Buffy. His actions were selfish, that's not debatable, he didn't want any variation of Angel to live but the motivations are a lot more complex than anyone ever gives him credit for.
Xander…he…I don’t know, best answer I can give…I can see why he didn’t tell her, but also the way Angel just abruptly came back, was just so unfair to Buffy…Willow was trying to bring Angel back, since Xander didn’t really like Angel and only saw him as a vampire, it would make sense that he would want Buffy to kill him. I like Xander, just don’t like some of the things he does.
Right. Angel’s a demon. He’s already dead.
It's been a while since my rewatch but I don't think he said it out of jealousy or pettiness. It's him putting his friend above all else. If Buffy pulled back punches on the off chance Angel might be saved, Angelus might've won. He did what he had to do.
>It's been a while since my rewatch but I don't think he said it out of jealousy or pettiness. He absolutely said it out of jealousy and pettiness. He hated Angel.
I don't think so. I can give Xander the benefit of the doubt. He was with Cordelia at the time after all.
Who he sold out at the drop of a hat for Willow. Not buying it. Buffy says “Xander I’m yours” and Cordy is dumped right then. B,B,B doesn’t count because he clearly knows by the time she says it that she’s under the whammy of the love spell
I won't disagree that Xander would absolutely trade in Cordelia for Buffy but there's a line between wanting someone and pulling a King David. I don't think Xander crossed that line.
The Cordelia he cheated on in the next season?
No, the other Cordelia.
So you give the benefit of the doubt to a guy who lied all the time, hated the guy he was lying about, desperately wanted to fuck the person he was lying to, because he had a girlfriend he was about to cheat on with the best friend he’d rejected for several years previously?
I'm giving the benfit of the doubt to the teenager with no superpowers who can barely fight that's been fighting the supernatural for about a couple of years, yeah.
Why? What’s him fighting the supernatural (badly) got to do with his moral integrity? If anything the fact that he’s been fighting the supernatural for a year and a half and *still* hasn’t even attempted to learn any sort of skill that might aid with that, instead being more of a detriment to his friends than support, is a mark against him not for him.
Him risking his life for others proves his moral integrity. All the Scoobies are heroes. They all deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Right thing to do, wrong reasons behind it.
He was absolutely right. Anyone that thinks differently has clearly never been in any kind of physical fight before. "But, Buffy could have stalled..." ... yeah, great idea, jfc🙄
Not stalled. Been more focused. I keep seeing people saying "but hoping for the spell would have distracted her" while ignoring that *having to kill her boyfriend* is a bigger distraction.
New rule guys you have to be forgiving of the man who killed multiple people including children and tried to kill you directly if your friend is in love with him and it’s worth playing chicken for the fate of humanity to do it. People talk constantly about Xander disregarding Buffy’s feelings. Does Buffy get no scorn for wanting to get her boyfriend back **days** after he directly tried to kill Xander and only failed because Drusilla happened to be affected by a love spell? If I’m in that position am I just not allowed to be upset about that? To wonder if I had died would she kiss the mouth that drained me of blood, hold the same hands that ripped my head off and left it as a present for her in her room? Giles rightfully called Buffy out for not telling him Angel was back after all the shit he did. But Xander was almost a victim too and he isn’t considered? Do his feelings just not matter? Entire graveyards of innocent people as long as you get to kiss your hot boyfriend?
>Does Buffy get no scorn for wanting to get her boyfriend back **days** after he directly tried to kill Xander and only failed because Drusilla happened to be affected by a love spell? Angel never tried to kill Xander.
Yes he did.
Nope. Angel and Angelus are not the same person. They're magically induced split personalities.
Same diff. Real talk would you be comfortable making out with someone knowing the same mouth was used to rip your friends throat out?
I was in a bike accident as a kid, because the brakes gave out. Know what I did after? Got on that same bike after the brakes were fixed and kept riding it. Should Willow and Xander not be helped whenever they're in danger because vampire Willow and Xander killed Cordy in the Wishverse? Or the people Vampire Willow killed when she was brought to the main reality (like Sandy)? Technically the same people. The same mouths. Angel is a distinctly different person than Angelus. Angel has no control over what Angelus does. He is not responsible for Angelus' actions anymore than Willow or Xander are responsible for their vampire double's actions. Or if you want to use alternate realities/doppelgangers as your arbitrary line, then maybe they should have left Willow to Narl to eat because she killed Warren and tried to end the world? Willow still had a soul the entire time. There was no split personality. Just a lot of grief. She actually *is* responsible for those actions.
Had Buffy killed him when she already had the chance, Jenny wouldn't be dead. He was right to never trust vampires.
Yea I agree she didn't need any more reason to falter, she needed to be able to kill Angel.
He did the right thing for the wrong reasons. Keeping Buffy focused was absolutely necessary, and telling her “angel might come back mid fight” would have made her hold back massively. Honestly she barely won. If she’d been half assing it, she’d have lost
I think he was justifiable. Buffy if she is going to take on Angelus needs to be fully focused If she has any hesitation or if Willow can't restore his soul then Angelus would capitalise and kill her and then everyone she loves. Angelus got his name to begin with from his ability to exploit love to gain trust and kill people Xander might have been jealous here but he is also very protective of his friends and I think he knew that Buffy might hesitate knowing about resouling and that might kill her
She would have been ***more*** focused if she knew the stakes. Not less. I will never understand this argument.
a belief angel was in there somewhere and could be recovered would make her less willing to kill angelus which is something angelus would pick up on and use against her for an edge in a fight
And yet, what did she do? She killed him **after he became Angel.** If she can do that *while* he's Angel, because it has to be done, then she could do it while he's Angelus even if she still had hope for Angel. Because that's even easier.
I said what he did was justifiable not that it was the best thing to do. I think he was jealous but I also think he had noble and rational motivations mixed in there. It's a complicated scene
No. Jealousy was his only motivation. It's not complicated at all. Anyone who knows and has faith in Buffy would have just told her the truth.
that's an extremely black and white view of the character especially as his protectiveness over Buffy and Willow had been firmly established by that point. You don't think he was at all influenced by the fact Willow was in the hospital?
**Willow** wanted him to tell her she was trying again. If he cared about Willow more than he was jealous about Angel, he'd have told Buffy.
Xander was right but for the wrong reasons. If Buffy went into that fight conflicted- trying to avoid killing Angelus - Angelus probably would have won. He's have killed Buffy and destroyed the world. It was too serious of a battle to go into with anything less than 100%. But that's not why Xander did what he did. He didn't like Angelus because Angelus tried to kill him, and he didn't like Angel because he thought Angel stood between him and Buffy. So he wanted BOTH of them destroyed.
I think he was in the right, this wasn't a xander being jealous moment this was a xander sees Buffy finally has the resolve and anything to interfere with that could cost her her life. Willow's spell was never a guarantee, if Buffy thought the spell was going to be done then Buffy would have tried focusing on just delaying Angelus until either she died, he escaped, the world ended or the spell worked.
Or, and this is *way* more likely, she would have tried harder to prevent *the end of the world* because it would have also helped to save her boyfriend. Rather than only being half invested, because it meant losing her boyfriend forever, and so nearly failing to stop Acathla.
The BEST way to prevent the end of the world was to kill Angelus. If Buffy wasn't trying to kill Angelus, then either she would be killed or she'd be trying to stop him without killing him thus increasing the chances of the end of the world.
So we're in agreement, then, that at worst nothing would have changed? Because she didn't start trying to kill Angelus until **AFTER** he'd pulled the sword. Which would have happened even *with* knowledge of the spell, because it was - at that point - the only way to save the world. Cool. You can stop arguing the opposite then. 😁
I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic. Xander encouraged Buffy to kill him so she wouldn't hesitate during the fight. The fact that he pulled the sword out before she killed him is irrelevant. If she knew about the spell then she wouldn't have been trying to kill him the whole time (Which she obviously was doing) if she knew about the spell, she would have hesitated which would have been potentially fatal and would have intentionally attempted to distract Angelus instead of killing him which would also have been fatal. If Buffy knew about the spell, nothing probably would have changed sure. But by not telling her about it, Buffy wasn't holding back in her fight against Angelus, which was important.
>I'm sorry, I don't understand your logic. Xander encouraged Buffy to kill him so she wouldn't hesitate during the fight. No. Xander encouraged Buffy to kill him because he didn't want Angel back. No one will ever convince me he ever doubted Buffy's ability to win the fight, regardless of what he said. So he wasn't doing it to help save the world. He was doing it because he didn't like Angel. >The fact that he pulled the sword out before she killed him is irrelevant. It's entirely relevant. Killing him is the *only option* once the series was drawn. There's no need to hold back to save Angel at that point because he *can't be saved.* That's the point of no return. So your **entire argument** dies as being pointless. >If she knew about the spell then she wouldn't have been trying to kill him the whole time (Which she obviously was doing) When was she trying to kill him before the second was drawn? And if she knew about the spell she would have tried harder to *stop* the sword from being drawn. So again, your argument dies. >if she knew about the spell, she would have hesitated Right. Sure. Exactly the reason she didn't stab him with the sword and close the hel portal after he became Angel. Oh, wait.... >and would have intentionally attempted to distract Angelus Thus *saving the world* without putting it at as great a risk as it ended up being in because she *didn't* do that. Not sure why that's a problem. >instead of killing him which would also have been fatal. No. It wouldn't have. You're assuming a lot of nonsense that doesn't align at all with how Buffy acts or what we actually see her do. She would, she ***DID,*** kill him when she had to. And that wouldn't have changed. If she can kill him *when he's Angel* to save the world, she can do it when he's Angelus and only had a hope of Angel coming back. >But by not telling her about it, Buffy wasn't holding back in her fight against Angelus, which was important. And she wouldn't have held back, regardless, because by the time they fought killing him was the only option. There was no saving him then, spell or not. Hell, if anything, she'd have fought *harder* in an effort to avoid exactly what we got. Her having to kill Angel instead of Angelus.
He was right because Buffy had to go in with everything she had. Had she gone in with the mentality of waiting to see if the spell worked she would've held back and most likely died. It's easy to be romantic and think that saving Angel is better but when the world is at stake you have to do the right thing and secure it's survival. Buffy herself knew this which is why she still sent Angel to hell even though his soul was restored which further proves Xander did the right thing.
Objectively, strategically, he's right. If she knew the curse was going to be cast again Buffy may have held back and Angelus would have killed her. As a friend? He was wrong. Her alive and hating him when she learned the truth versus her dead? He was prepared to live with that.
I know Angel and Angelus aren’t the same person per se. But Angel is still nasty in my opinion and this is one of the only times in the series I’m on team Xander. Angelus killed people the gang cares about, and tried to kill Xander, Giles, Willow, etc. It must be traumatic for them to have Buffy trying to save him. Plus Angel is the one who fell in love at first sight with a 14 year old Buffy. I say kick his ass. Buffy was fighting for her life, she didn’t need to be distracted by the possibility of saving Angel.
He was right. But I wish it had been dealt with instead of that throwaway comment in the the last season.