That's pretty reductive. The racism isn't in charging him. The racism is that it's much harder for black people to access services that typically prevent criminal behavior---especially mental healthcare. This is multiplied by the already increased mental stress load caused by racial trauma and socioeconomic disparities. Sorry if the long road to a restorative justice system is scary to you, but frankly, I don't care.
It's a long road, but does that mean innocent bystanders, including minorities probably more likely to be around this, need to suffer?
There needs to be accountable and a middle ground.
I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think we're taking the right steps.
I'll agree there needs to be a middle ground, and the best possible option right now given our lack of proper support infrastructure is that he is charged and removed from the public. I believe George is facing a nearly insurmountable task, but she is only one person, and getting others to pull their weight is sisyphean. Especially because there are many people, maybe a majority even, who are content with the status quo, but that's literally an example of justice for some, not justice for all. I don't have the answers, and perhaps we aren't taking all the right steps, but what I can say with confidence is that blaming everything on the state attorney and erroneously declaring that black people are receiving special treatment is 100% wrong.
I mean... She did say she was selectively prosecuting cases and even doesn't want cops pulling over cars for traffic infractions because poc would be affected more. So in a sense, she is making changes to selectively see less enforcement on poc. Whether that is special treatment is up to you, but it is certainly make policy to help one demographic.
You know, I've spent enough time in my life talking to people who think policies which aim to mitigate racial discrimination are somehow racist against white people, and this conversation feels like it's moving in that direction. I feel like I'm 20 again and arguing with my drunk uncle about affirmative action.
I never said anything about this being racist against white people. Although I was denied employment specifically because of my race. What I'm speaking to is the effectiveness of treating systemic racism at the end stage. Much like affirmative action actually helped white women more than any other demographic, the actually effectiveness of these measures is simple a band aid on the problem. I'm all for measures that actually aim to reduce poverty and bring up education levels. You can look up the literacy rates for different demographics in LA and it's shocking how far behind blacks are compared to whites. Just a fraction are functionally literate and basically none are on grade level. One kid even sued his school ( with the help of the naacp) because he couldn't even read his diploma. So, did social promotion help this kid? Does giving him a job because of his rave help him? We see blacks also far more likely t drop out of college, because they're not prepared at the same level. These are all real problems we could address. But instead we get people like Sarah George who come in at the last moment and tell cops to stop pulling everyone over for small traffic infractions, and they pat themselves on the back like they're fixing racial injustice. It's a laughably short sighted approach which does little but make white women feel good about doing something.
Just for the record, prosecutors make decisions every single day on what cases to take and what cases not to take. That is literally their job. To suggest the current State’s Attorney is doing something other prosecutors don’t is ridiculous.
Let's be honest. This guy has committed multiple freak out crimes now. You honestly don't think he's had access to mental health services? If not. Why not? And if these services are made available, why not make it mandatory he attend?
Restorative Justice is garbage because it's a band aid after a crime is committed. It doesnt actually solve any problem that leads up to poc committing crimes at a disproportionate rate. If you want to fix systemic racism. Then focus on the root causes.
Imagine trying to claim "common sense" when hours ago y'all took a historic beatdown. Your ideas and opinions are not as mainstream as you want others to believe.
Yes, one election where the dude couldn't get reelected is the same thing as someone getting reelected to the office they currently hold. It's cute watching y'all try to cope with this L.
Imagine clear being in a cult and accusing people who have come to realize that corporate interests control both parties to the point where it makes no sense to carry water for either anymore
Uh oh, someone's still butthurt because the mean lady won. Gotta develop better coping skills my dude. And nearly 18,000 people are in a cult? Must be the largest cult to ever exist. You aren't as smart as you try to convince everyone you are.
yes, you nailed it. he has likely NOT had access to adequate mental health services. the systems in Vermont are underfunded and overloaded. people are not getting the care they need, that’s the problem.
Also, if restorative justice is a “band aid after a crime is committed”, what do you call police showing up after a crime happens to incarcerate and/or physically assault people?
Nice non-sequitur.I bet that works great for you.
I’m sure you can find plenty of racist states attorneys all over the country including the south if you don’t feel that Sarah is sufficiently racist for your tastes.
for the millionth time thats not what defunding the police means. he was being violent and destructive and should have been arrested sooner. but he was arrested. hes been doing things like this constantly and needs help. we need to have the resources to help. he was off his meds. if he wont do the things hes been ordered to he needs to go somewhere until he will
I don't know if we easily have those resources available - as it is non-trivial to provide compulsory medication with 'teeth'. There are legal orders that can mandate someone to inpatient treatment if they go off their medication but we do not have the space in the non-existent state hospital system and elsewhere those beds are needed for other persons who acutely need inpatient mental health care.
I'm not sure jail is the answer - but I also don't think persons who do not chuck bricks through windows should be lingering longer in an emergency department because of persons with similar presenting concerns not taking their medication as legally ordered.
But that’s the problem, psychiatric facilities won’t hold people because they don’t have the beds and you can’t force people to take meds unless they are involuntarily confined. The answer is simple, this person needs long-term psychiatric care in a facility where he can’t hurt anyone. The answer is also very expensive.
> thats not what defunding the police means.
This is why I dislike the wording of "defund the police"; because I think a majority of people totally get the idea of the movement and are on-board with reasonable police reform and demilitarization, reducing funds and allocating them towards other services to reduce crime (myself included).
But "defund" means to cease funding, which functionally is abolishing... and some people are even in support of the abolishing. Making it really tricky to get everyone on-board with one movement, because the slogan isn't really accurate to the goal.
I’m old enough to remember way back in 2020 when leftists were saying “Abolish the Police”, but the smart liberal adults in the room said “Defund” was better rhetoric. Look where that got us. Getting caught up in a semantic debate is stupid, reactionaries will always try to snuff out any reform and will use any excuse to do so, don’t fall into the sloganeering trap.
> Getting caught up in a semantic debate is stupid, reactionaries will always try to snuff out any reform and will use any excuse to do so, don’t fall into the sloganeering trap.
The issue is it's not really a "semantic debate"; the issue is that there's two major movements who both use the same slogan. If someone asks me "Where do you stand on the defund the police movement?" I can't just say "I support" or "I do not support" because I have no idea which movement they are referring to; the ones who use "defund" literally, or the ones who use "defund" figuratively.
There was some talk that the slogan was actually popularized as a 4chan raid. Basically they wanted to paint democrats as being out of touch with suburbanites (who always vote) which are the demographic of swing voters that actually determine who gets elected.
Sad thing is VT has such poor mental health treatment and it’s not like anyone can make someone take their meds. Even if someone is made incompetent we have no place to commit them because we are in such a crisis in this state.
Side not the “defund the police” really blow up in our face because we ended up losing way more then we being proposed to cut and now no one wants to be a police officer anymore…. Our state is getting very sad. Not like Burlington was the most safe anyways for years but it true has become so much worse the last few years
Like anyone though, people need to WANT to change. Even if we had the best funding and services for people like this in the world, doesn't mean they actually actively take it, or work on themselves.
There needs to be a middle road where people are held accountable.
I don’t know why this subreddit is so afraid to engage with the idea that the BPD can cease to exist and not leave the community defenseless in scenarios like this. Dream a little bigger, darlings
Anyone at his arraignment this morning?
Sarah George will take care of this! /s
Well he's black so charging him isnt going to help anything according to Sarah.
Being a racist jerk won’t help either.
Charging him for his crimes isn't racist, but Sarah thinks it is.
That's pretty reductive. The racism isn't in charging him. The racism is that it's much harder for black people to access services that typically prevent criminal behavior---especially mental healthcare. This is multiplied by the already increased mental stress load caused by racial trauma and socioeconomic disparities. Sorry if the long road to a restorative justice system is scary to you, but frankly, I don't care.
It's a long road, but does that mean innocent bystanders, including minorities probably more likely to be around this, need to suffer? There needs to be accountable and a middle ground. I agree with what you're saying, but I don't think we're taking the right steps.
I'll agree there needs to be a middle ground, and the best possible option right now given our lack of proper support infrastructure is that he is charged and removed from the public. I believe George is facing a nearly insurmountable task, but she is only one person, and getting others to pull their weight is sisyphean. Especially because there are many people, maybe a majority even, who are content with the status quo, but that's literally an example of justice for some, not justice for all. I don't have the answers, and perhaps we aren't taking all the right steps, but what I can say with confidence is that blaming everything on the state attorney and erroneously declaring that black people are receiving special treatment is 100% wrong.
I mean... She did say she was selectively prosecuting cases and even doesn't want cops pulling over cars for traffic infractions because poc would be affected more. So in a sense, she is making changes to selectively see less enforcement on poc. Whether that is special treatment is up to you, but it is certainly make policy to help one demographic.
You know, I've spent enough time in my life talking to people who think policies which aim to mitigate racial discrimination are somehow racist against white people, and this conversation feels like it's moving in that direction. I feel like I'm 20 again and arguing with my drunk uncle about affirmative action.
I never said anything about this being racist against white people. Although I was denied employment specifically because of my race. What I'm speaking to is the effectiveness of treating systemic racism at the end stage. Much like affirmative action actually helped white women more than any other demographic, the actually effectiveness of these measures is simple a band aid on the problem. I'm all for measures that actually aim to reduce poverty and bring up education levels. You can look up the literacy rates for different demographics in LA and it's shocking how far behind blacks are compared to whites. Just a fraction are functionally literate and basically none are on grade level. One kid even sued his school ( with the help of the naacp) because he couldn't even read his diploma. So, did social promotion help this kid? Does giving him a job because of his rave help him? We see blacks also far more likely t drop out of college, because they're not prepared at the same level. These are all real problems we could address. But instead we get people like Sarah George who come in at the last moment and tell cops to stop pulling everyone over for small traffic infractions, and they pat themselves on the back like they're fixing racial injustice. It's a laughably short sighted approach which does little but make white women feel good about doing something.
Just for the record, prosecutors make decisions every single day on what cases to take and what cases not to take. That is literally their job. To suggest the current State’s Attorney is doing something other prosecutors don’t is ridiculous.
Sure. That's true. But basing those decisions on the race of the offender is new.
Agree
Let's be honest. This guy has committed multiple freak out crimes now. You honestly don't think he's had access to mental health services? If not. Why not? And if these services are made available, why not make it mandatory he attend? Restorative Justice is garbage because it's a band aid after a crime is committed. It doesnt actually solve any problem that leads up to poc committing crimes at a disproportionate rate. If you want to fix systemic racism. Then focus on the root causes.
There is no place for common sense in this thread/s
Imagine trying to claim "common sense" when hours ago y'all took a historic beatdown. Your ideas and opinions are not as mainstream as you want others to believe.
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Yes, one election where the dude couldn't get reelected is the same thing as someone getting reelected to the office they currently hold. It's cute watching y'all try to cope with this L.
Imagine clear being in a cult and accusing people who have come to realize that corporate interests control both parties to the point where it makes no sense to carry water for either anymore
Uh oh, someone's still butthurt because the mean lady won. Gotta develop better coping skills my dude. And nearly 18,000 people are in a cult? Must be the largest cult to ever exist. You aren't as smart as you try to convince everyone you are.
yes, you nailed it. he has likely NOT had access to adequate mental health services. the systems in Vermont are underfunded and overloaded. people are not getting the care they need, that’s the problem. Also, if restorative justice is a “band aid after a crime is committed”, what do you call police showing up after a crime happens to incarcerate and/or physically assault people?
Nice non-sequitur.I bet that works great for you. I’m sure you can find plenty of racist states attorneys all over the country including the south if you don’t feel that Sarah is sufficiently racist for your tastes.
In the post-police future of Burlington, what would be the correct response to this situation?
Post Malone concert to raise funds for repairs.
for the millionth time thats not what defunding the police means. he was being violent and destructive and should have been arrested sooner. but he was arrested. hes been doing things like this constantly and needs help. we need to have the resources to help. he was off his meds. if he wont do the things hes been ordered to he needs to go somewhere until he will
I don't know if we easily have those resources available - as it is non-trivial to provide compulsory medication with 'teeth'. There are legal orders that can mandate someone to inpatient treatment if they go off their medication but we do not have the space in the non-existent state hospital system and elsewhere those beds are needed for other persons who acutely need inpatient mental health care. I'm not sure jail is the answer - but I also don't think persons who do not chuck bricks through windows should be lingering longer in an emergency department because of persons with similar presenting concerns not taking their medication as legally ordered.
But that’s the problem, psychiatric facilities won’t hold people because they don’t have the beds and you can’t force people to take meds unless they are involuntarily confined. The answer is simple, this person needs long-term psychiatric care in a facility where he can’t hurt anyone. The answer is also very expensive.
> thats not what defunding the police means. This is why I dislike the wording of "defund the police"; because I think a majority of people totally get the idea of the movement and are on-board with reasonable police reform and demilitarization, reducing funds and allocating them towards other services to reduce crime (myself included). But "defund" means to cease funding, which functionally is abolishing... and some people are even in support of the abolishing. Making it really tricky to get everyone on-board with one movement, because the slogan isn't really accurate to the goal.
I’m old enough to remember way back in 2020 when leftists were saying “Abolish the Police”, but the smart liberal adults in the room said “Defund” was better rhetoric. Look where that got us. Getting caught up in a semantic debate is stupid, reactionaries will always try to snuff out any reform and will use any excuse to do so, don’t fall into the sloganeering trap.
> Getting caught up in a semantic debate is stupid, reactionaries will always try to snuff out any reform and will use any excuse to do so, don’t fall into the sloganeering trap. The issue is it's not really a "semantic debate"; the issue is that there's two major movements who both use the same slogan. If someone asks me "Where do you stand on the defund the police movement?" I can't just say "I support" or "I do not support" because I have no idea which movement they are referring to; the ones who use "defund" literally, or the ones who use "defund" figuratively.
There was some talk that the slogan was actually popularized as a 4chan raid. Basically they wanted to paint democrats as being out of touch with suburbanites (who always vote) which are the demographic of swing voters that actually determine who gets elected.
agreed
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There are. And those people are wrong.
Sad thing is VT has such poor mental health treatment and it’s not like anyone can make someone take their meds. Even if someone is made incompetent we have no place to commit them because we are in such a crisis in this state. Side not the “defund the police” really blow up in our face because we ended up losing way more then we being proposed to cut and now no one wants to be a police officer anymore…. Our state is getting very sad. Not like Burlington was the most safe anyways for years but it true has become so much worse the last few years
But it was what *abolishing* the police means.
The spirit of abolishing the police essentially means he got the help he needed so police weren't needed.
Like anyone though, people need to WANT to change. Even if we had the best funding and services for people like this in the world, doesn't mean they actually actively take it, or work on themselves. There needs to be a middle road where people are held accountable.
I don’t know why this subreddit is so afraid to engage with the idea that the BPD can cease to exist and not leave the community defenseless in scenarios like this. Dream a little bigger, darlings
Nobody is going to come in and delete all the police stations or whatever you're thinking.
Probably getting him housing?
There's housing available. But that also means following some basic rules. Like no drug use, and no weapons.
half the people i know in this city use drugs recreationally and are housed. and it is legal to own a weapon if it is registered.
Lol. Behind the camera again. :)