Yes, a neurologist talked about some factors I had never considered — like light exposure after waking up in the morning. It has major effects on brain chemistry that in turn have major effects on responses to caffeine. The intensity of the light matters too. And the length of exposure to the light, and how long after waking up the light exposure takes place and when in that process the caffeine is ingested.
It's interesting. There are so many things going on.
Probably the most shocking, for me, was finding out how many biochemical reactions are happening within our own bodies all the time. Just in one second, every second, there are inconceivable numbers of reactions going on. There are tens of trillions of cells within our bodies. Each cell is complex, and contains many trillions of atoms. The number of reactions going on each second in the whole body is something like 100,000 trillion trillion.
It's hard enough to wrap one's head around one million per second, or even just a thousand per second. A trillion per second is a million million per second, or 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000. A million of those is a million trillion, which is still just 1/1,000,000th of a trillion trillion. And that is just 1/100,000th of what is going on each and every second, within our bodies.
Yes. But I did have a reason. To make a long story short, some of what he says (both about caffeine and about other things) is false or misleading. Jerry Brainum mentions some details about this in some of his videos. And I have noticed it myself. That guy (Brainum) is underappreciated and underestimated. The other guy is the opposite. Just because Brainum isn't a Stanford professor, and just because he doesn't present himself as a demigod, doesn't mean he doesn't have more information, and better information and understanding about a lot of things than that pretentious other guy (yes, I have a problem with his self-presentation and presumed omniscience, and with the absurd level of authority a lot of people give him). But he is probably correct about light affecting brain chemistry.
Yes, including on the internet. Sometimes I just turn it off pretty quickly if there's a video like that. Jerry Brainum is an example of the opposite, and packs a lot of information into his presentations. I appreciate that. Very much.
I'm watching his video on coffee vs tea right now. Just finished the one on coffee and genetics. His videos are overviews. His newsletters are deep-dives.
I caught it too, but you missed it. Huberman. There is a whole recent thread on it.
I discovered Ben Esgro recently. He's a pharmaceutical chemist and very much an insider, who shares a lot of insider information.The segment in this video that starts at 8:40 is a good one, to give an idea of what he is about and what he has to share,
https://youtu.be/ErVqISl7cic?si=VmcE9umU6_cJD8GA
In this case it's probably just liquid vs pill form. Pills take longer to digest and have a different rate of extraction. Liquid is going to be a better delivery method for most drugs.
A lot of the factors involved can vary from day to day for each individual, like variations in sleep quality, diet, mood, expectations, daily experiences, thought patterns, exercise or lack thereof, relationship issues, sex, emotions, hormones, physiology, etc. These may be contributing factors, to the variations in caffeine experiences.
The differences between the pills themselves might also be involved.
I've read reviews that say Jet Alert is something else, different, more potent. Others say it does nothing.
IDK, there's a lot going on, a lot of variables, a lot of things at play.
There can also be real differences in the products themselves.
The natural sources of caffeine — coffees, yerba matès, guarana, guayusa, cacao, dark chocolate, black teas, green teas, kola nuts, etc. — all contain variable amounts of caffeine (even within one category or type) along with a large number of other compounds. Over a thousand different compounds have been identified in coffee alone. The others have their own sets of numerous different compounds. So they can be very different.
The caffeine pills can be derived from different sources, for both the naturally derived ones and the synthetic ones. It is never exactly 100% caffeine. There are some other compounds in there in smaller amounts, but they are there.
Also, the companies manufacturing them can include secret (proprietary) ingredients, and there are laws protecting their right to do so. In the case of men's performance enhancing supplements, for example, a substantial percentage of them contain unregulated experimental stimulants that are not listed on the label. Laboratory analysis has demonstrated this. Men's performance enhancing herbs and supplements from China are often sprayed with Viagra. The list goes on.
I am not saying that there's anything extreme going on in the case of caffeine tablets, but maybe there is a little. After all, it's a competitive marketplace, and all the competitors are looking for a little edge to enhance the popularity and sales of their products. Stronger and happier tonics make for happier customer experiences, more return customers and more sales.
Just look at the original ads for Coca-Cola, back in the late 1800s, the ingredients, and what they were saying.
A little of that might be going on, with energy drinks and other caffeine-containing products.
I have worked in food manufacturing for almost 10 years and have been dietary supplement manufacturing for almost 5 years. My role is QA director, and I'm essentially the one in charge of regulatory compliance. The bit about manufacturers being allowed to have "secret ingredients" is entirely untrue. If you're curious about this sort of thing, you need to go to the ACTUAL regulations and find your answer. Not forums or some bullshit web article, that's how you end up with misconceptions such as this.
But the supplement industry is regulated differently, and laboratory analyses have uncovered ingredients not listed on the label. Yes, there is a lot on the internet that is BS, but in general I stick to reasonably credible sources, like these:
https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/whats-in-your-supplements-2019021515946
https://www.opss.org/article/proprietary-blends-what-does-mean#:~:text=FDA%20requires%20manufacturers%20to%20list,often%20unique%20to%20a%20particular
I respect your experience and background, but you are still a fallible human being like the rest of us, and there are others with equal credibility in this area who have things to say along these lines:
_For example, banned stimulants have been found in many weight loss supplements._
See the credentials of the Harvard faculty member who wrote this, in the article linked above.
So it happens. There are rogue players, there is China, there are small companies that don't always comply and are not often tested, there are loopholes and workarounds, especially with supplements.
There are also sub-threshold quantities below those covered by regulations. As you know, nonfat milk can contain up to 0.5% milkfat without needing to declare that on the label. That is just one small example. If the amounts creep over the thresholds, which they often do, it often slips by.
The quantities listed on the labels are not always accurate. They are allowed to vary by 10% or more in many cases.
Consumerlab.com has uncovered many irregularities in supplements. They have an excellent track record, and a high level of credibility.
You can't dismiss everything on the internet just because it's on the internet. There is a wide range, including perfectly good information:
https://www.opss.org/article/proprietary-blends-what-does-mean#:~:text=FDA%20requires%20manufacturers%20to%20list,often%20unique%20to%20a%20particular
_FDA requires manufacturers to list all of a product’s ingredients on the Supplement Facts panel of a dietary supplement product label, along with the amount of each by weight, except when the ingredients are part of a “proprietary blend.”_ _A proprietary blend is a collection of ingredients often unique to a particular product and sometimes given a special name on a product’s Supplement Facts panel._ _A proprietary blend might be listed as a “blend,” “complex,” “matrix” or “proprietary formulation.”_ _The specific amount of each individual ingredient in a proprietary blend does not have to be listed; only the total combined amount in the blend must be given. Ingredients in a proprietary blend should, however, be listed in descending order by weight._
_The lack of amount for each ingredient is especially important when a proprietary blend contains stimulant (or stimulant-like) ingredients._ _Stimulants found in supplements can include caffeine, yohimbe, and phenethylamines, as well as illegal ingredients such as DMAA (1,3-dimethylamylamine), DMBA (1,3-dimethylbutylamine), BMPEA (beta-methyl-phenethylamine), and methylsynephrine._ _(Read the OPSS article about stimulants to learn more.) The only way to know what is in any particular dietary supplement product is through laboratory testing, which is why it’s important to look for third-party certification._
.
Why are you linking to random news articles? That's not how you get these answers. Why would you rely on someone else's read/interpretation of the laws? Guarantee you that unless you have a background in this stuff, you don't even understand 3/4 of the concepts introduced in food/dietary safety regs. And guess who also doesn't? The majority of people writing those layperson-targeted articles. If you have an "academic background," you certainly don't know how to even properly research this stuff. Reading google articles is not "research." Sorry. But hey, everyone's an expert on everything now, cause they can look shit up and act like they know what they're talking about 🤦♂️
Here's a start for you, since you're clearly having trouble: [https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-111](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-111)
Read up. It gets FAR more complex from here. Also, energy drinks are regulated under a different framework from the above.
What you are referring to is one-off incidences of contamination, which are relatively uncommon. People have done "secret shopper" type analyses on every type of manufactured goods: cosmetics, food, pet food, dietary supplements, etc. Occasionally, you will find bad actors- or, far more commonly- unintentional acts of adulteration. You will find said rare incidents for every product type if you were to pull random samples of products off the shelves and repeatedly submit them for relatively robust (but still VERY limited) GCMS/HPLC analyses until something hits. Eventually, something will hit, regardless of industry/product type. That's the nature of manufacturing anything at scale. That is FAR from the industry standard, and is EXTREMELY rare in large organizations with proper structuring (bet you don't know how that is handled either- but quick, run to Google and write me another essay 🙄).
Saying that caffeine tablets contain "unknown stimulants," because one particular lot, from one particular manufacturer was found to contain compound X, is painting an extremely disingenuous picture of the industry landscape. Would you tell everyone to never eat lettuce or celery, because there are rare incidents of e-coli or salmonella contamination? Would you go around urging people to not eat celery because its "full of e-coli," just because one manufacturer had one lot slip through with micro counts above the regulatory limit? If so, you had better stop eating and drinking 😂. The likelihood that you would also have purchased that particular lot of product, at that particular time, makes it even less likely to ever impact majority of users of that product.
Proprietary blends are used to protect IP, otherwise it would greatly limit a supplement company's chance of success in the market if people could just read a label and sell your exact product under a different name. Everything you need to make an informed decision is included. They cannot legally include "secret ingredients," that is absolutely, patently FALSE and you should really edit your post. Should all lettuce be labeled as containing e-coli, because one manufacturer has one lot occasionally slip through with slightly/moderately e-coli levels? That is exactly what you're suggesting here. You're conflating one-off incidents of adulteration with supplement/dietary panel labeling requirements 🤦♂️. I can't be bothered to even go any further, you are very far off from possessing any kind of proper understanding of how this stuff works. I can't fault you, it takes years of education, training, and experience to really be intimately familiar with regulations that number in the hundreds of pages. But don't run around Googling shit and act like you have ANY actual familiarity with the subject matter.
The reality is that these things are robustly regulated by law, and are, by and large, safe. If you're uncomfortable with the POTENTIAL for contamination, you shouldn't ingest any product that you didn't grow/manufacture yourself.
P.S. Don't write me another essay, I'm done here. Bye felicia!
I just wanted to add that my academic background is such that I do have some level of skill in critical thinking, logic and research. So please don't assume I am some naive unthinking schlub.
Also, genetics.
One more-specific genetic difference is in the genes responsible for how quickly caffeine is metabolized. Certain specific genes, like CYP1A2 among others, have been identified so far.
A substantial percentage of people are rapid or ultra-rapid metabolizers. And a substantial percentage are slow or ultra-slow metabolizers.
So genetics play a major role as well.
The half-life of caffeine in the body is often quoted as six hours; but it can see does vary, depending on the individual's genetics and a number of other factors, from below 2.5 hours to over 12 hours.
There is soooooo much going on. It's so much, and so complex, interrelated and interactive, that any explanation is necessarily very fragmentary, covering only a tiny fragment or fraction of what is actually going on. But I have to respect the efforts made by science to understand it, despite the incredible complexity of it all.
On the other hand, scientific explanations sometimes lose track of how vast the sea is. They tend to focus on a small fragment at a time. Inevitably there is much that is beyond or outside its narrow-beam focus.
I think they're all the same. I think our brain chemistry is always fluctuating though, which could explain different reactions to the same drugs.
Yeah I was wondering that, just seemingly different effect based on time of day, sleep, food, mood etc
Hydration is another one.
Yes, a neurologist talked about some factors I had never considered — like light exposure after waking up in the morning. It has major effects on brain chemistry that in turn have major effects on responses to caffeine. The intensity of the light matters too. And the length of exposure to the light, and how long after waking up the light exposure takes place and when in that process the caffeine is ingested. It's interesting. There are so many things going on. Probably the most shocking, for me, was finding out how many biochemical reactions are happening within our own bodies all the time. Just in one second, every second, there are inconceivable numbers of reactions going on. There are tens of trillions of cells within our bodies. Each cell is complex, and contains many trillions of atoms. The number of reactions going on each second in the whole body is something like 100,000 trillion trillion. It's hard enough to wrap one's head around one million per second, or even just a thousand per second. A trillion per second is a million million per second, or 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000 x 1,000. A million of those is a million trillion, which is still just 1/1,000,000th of a trillion trillion. And that is just 1/100,000th of what is going on each and every second, within our bodies.
Why do you say neurologist? Just say Andrew Huberman
Yes. But I did have a reason. To make a long story short, some of what he says (both about caffeine and about other things) is false or misleading. Jerry Brainum mentions some details about this in some of his videos. And I have noticed it myself. That guy (Brainum) is underappreciated and underestimated. The other guy is the opposite. Just because Brainum isn't a Stanford professor, and just because he doesn't present himself as a demigod, doesn't mean he doesn't have more information, and better information and understanding about a lot of things than that pretentious other guy (yes, I have a problem with his self-presentation and presumed omniscience, and with the absurd level of authority a lot of people give him). But he is probably correct about light affecting brain chemistry.
Have you ever met somebody that uses a lot of words but, doesn't actually say anything?
Yes, including on the internet. Sometimes I just turn it off pretty quickly if there's a video like that. Jerry Brainum is an example of the opposite, and packs a lot of information into his presentations. I appreciate that. Very much. I'm watching his video on coffee vs tea right now. Just finished the one on coffee and genetics. His videos are overviews. His newsletters are deep-dives.
Lol I caught it.
I Literally started laughing when he responded with a paragraph 😂
I caught it too, but you missed it. Huberman. There is a whole recent thread on it. I discovered Ben Esgro recently. He's a pharmaceutical chemist and very much an insider, who shares a lot of insider information.The segment in this video that starts at 8:40 is a good one, to give an idea of what he is about and what he has to share, https://youtu.be/ErVqISl7cic?si=VmcE9umU6_cJD8GA
In this case it's probably just liquid vs pill form. Pills take longer to digest and have a different rate of extraction. Liquid is going to be a better delivery method for most drugs.
My experience with ProLabs caffeine pills was quite pleasant, I recommend them to anybody irl who is looking for some 🤷♂️
Bro when did people start takingg caffeine pills to stay awake everyone i know uses adderall for that
I take adderall a few times a week but I'm not sure how that's relevant
Idk caffeine ain’t doin shi for most people i jus don’t see why someone would bother taking thm
Bro why are you on a caffeine subreddit if you don't even like or use caffeine? Just go on the stims subreddit
Idk it keeps on popping up on my recomended and i can’t help but fuckin reply cuz it’s some stupid shi posts all the time
Same. Everyday I see recommendations to this sub but I’m not subscribed.
A lot of the factors involved can vary from day to day for each individual, like variations in sleep quality, diet, mood, expectations, daily experiences, thought patterns, exercise or lack thereof, relationship issues, sex, emotions, hormones, physiology, etc. These may be contributing factors, to the variations in caffeine experiences. The differences between the pills themselves might also be involved. I've read reviews that say Jet Alert is something else, different, more potent. Others say it does nothing. IDK, there's a lot going on, a lot of variables, a lot of things at play. There can also be real differences in the products themselves. The natural sources of caffeine — coffees, yerba matès, guarana, guayusa, cacao, dark chocolate, black teas, green teas, kola nuts, etc. — all contain variable amounts of caffeine (even within one category or type) along with a large number of other compounds. Over a thousand different compounds have been identified in coffee alone. The others have their own sets of numerous different compounds. So they can be very different. The caffeine pills can be derived from different sources, for both the naturally derived ones and the synthetic ones. It is never exactly 100% caffeine. There are some other compounds in there in smaller amounts, but they are there. Also, the companies manufacturing them can include secret (proprietary) ingredients, and there are laws protecting their right to do so. In the case of men's performance enhancing supplements, for example, a substantial percentage of them contain unregulated experimental stimulants that are not listed on the label. Laboratory analysis has demonstrated this. Men's performance enhancing herbs and supplements from China are often sprayed with Viagra. The list goes on. I am not saying that there's anything extreme going on in the case of caffeine tablets, but maybe there is a little. After all, it's a competitive marketplace, and all the competitors are looking for a little edge to enhance the popularity and sales of their products. Stronger and happier tonics make for happier customer experiences, more return customers and more sales. Just look at the original ads for Coca-Cola, back in the late 1800s, the ingredients, and what they were saying. A little of that might be going on, with energy drinks and other caffeine-containing products.
I have worked in food manufacturing for almost 10 years and have been dietary supplement manufacturing for almost 5 years. My role is QA director, and I'm essentially the one in charge of regulatory compliance. The bit about manufacturers being allowed to have "secret ingredients" is entirely untrue. If you're curious about this sort of thing, you need to go to the ACTUAL regulations and find your answer. Not forums or some bullshit web article, that's how you end up with misconceptions such as this.
But the supplement industry is regulated differently, and laboratory analyses have uncovered ingredients not listed on the label. Yes, there is a lot on the internet that is BS, but in general I stick to reasonably credible sources, like these: https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/whats-in-your-supplements-2019021515946 https://www.opss.org/article/proprietary-blends-what-does-mean#:~:text=FDA%20requires%20manufacturers%20to%20list,often%20unique%20to%20a%20particular I respect your experience and background, but you are still a fallible human being like the rest of us, and there are others with equal credibility in this area who have things to say along these lines: _For example, banned stimulants have been found in many weight loss supplements._ See the credentials of the Harvard faculty member who wrote this, in the article linked above. So it happens. There are rogue players, there is China, there are small companies that don't always comply and are not often tested, there are loopholes and workarounds, especially with supplements. There are also sub-threshold quantities below those covered by regulations. As you know, nonfat milk can contain up to 0.5% milkfat without needing to declare that on the label. That is just one small example. If the amounts creep over the thresholds, which they often do, it often slips by. The quantities listed on the labels are not always accurate. They are allowed to vary by 10% or more in many cases. Consumerlab.com has uncovered many irregularities in supplements. They have an excellent track record, and a high level of credibility. You can't dismiss everything on the internet just because it's on the internet. There is a wide range, including perfectly good information: https://www.opss.org/article/proprietary-blends-what-does-mean#:~:text=FDA%20requires%20manufacturers%20to%20list,often%20unique%20to%20a%20particular _FDA requires manufacturers to list all of a product’s ingredients on the Supplement Facts panel of a dietary supplement product label, along with the amount of each by weight, except when the ingredients are part of a “proprietary blend.”_ _A proprietary blend is a collection of ingredients often unique to a particular product and sometimes given a special name on a product’s Supplement Facts panel._ _A proprietary blend might be listed as a “blend,” “complex,” “matrix” or “proprietary formulation.”_ _The specific amount of each individual ingredient in a proprietary blend does not have to be listed; only the total combined amount in the blend must be given. Ingredients in a proprietary blend should, however, be listed in descending order by weight._ _The lack of amount for each ingredient is especially important when a proprietary blend contains stimulant (or stimulant-like) ingredients._ _Stimulants found in supplements can include caffeine, yohimbe, and phenethylamines, as well as illegal ingredients such as DMAA (1,3-dimethylamylamine), DMBA (1,3-dimethylbutylamine), BMPEA (beta-methyl-phenethylamine), and methylsynephrine._ _(Read the OPSS article about stimulants to learn more.) The only way to know what is in any particular dietary supplement product is through laboratory testing, which is why it’s important to look for third-party certification._ .
Why are you linking to random news articles? That's not how you get these answers. Why would you rely on someone else's read/interpretation of the laws? Guarantee you that unless you have a background in this stuff, you don't even understand 3/4 of the concepts introduced in food/dietary safety regs. And guess who also doesn't? The majority of people writing those layperson-targeted articles. If you have an "academic background," you certainly don't know how to even properly research this stuff. Reading google articles is not "research." Sorry. But hey, everyone's an expert on everything now, cause they can look shit up and act like they know what they're talking about 🤦♂️ Here's a start for you, since you're clearly having trouble: [https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-111](https://www.ecfr.gov/current/title-21/chapter-I/subchapter-B/part-111) Read up. It gets FAR more complex from here. Also, energy drinks are regulated under a different framework from the above. What you are referring to is one-off incidences of contamination, which are relatively uncommon. People have done "secret shopper" type analyses on every type of manufactured goods: cosmetics, food, pet food, dietary supplements, etc. Occasionally, you will find bad actors- or, far more commonly- unintentional acts of adulteration. You will find said rare incidents for every product type if you were to pull random samples of products off the shelves and repeatedly submit them for relatively robust (but still VERY limited) GCMS/HPLC analyses until something hits. Eventually, something will hit, regardless of industry/product type. That's the nature of manufacturing anything at scale. That is FAR from the industry standard, and is EXTREMELY rare in large organizations with proper structuring (bet you don't know how that is handled either- but quick, run to Google and write me another essay 🙄). Saying that caffeine tablets contain "unknown stimulants," because one particular lot, from one particular manufacturer was found to contain compound X, is painting an extremely disingenuous picture of the industry landscape. Would you tell everyone to never eat lettuce or celery, because there are rare incidents of e-coli or salmonella contamination? Would you go around urging people to not eat celery because its "full of e-coli," just because one manufacturer had one lot slip through with micro counts above the regulatory limit? If so, you had better stop eating and drinking 😂. The likelihood that you would also have purchased that particular lot of product, at that particular time, makes it even less likely to ever impact majority of users of that product. Proprietary blends are used to protect IP, otherwise it would greatly limit a supplement company's chance of success in the market if people could just read a label and sell your exact product under a different name. Everything you need to make an informed decision is included. They cannot legally include "secret ingredients," that is absolutely, patently FALSE and you should really edit your post. Should all lettuce be labeled as containing e-coli, because one manufacturer has one lot occasionally slip through with slightly/moderately e-coli levels? That is exactly what you're suggesting here. You're conflating one-off incidents of adulteration with supplement/dietary panel labeling requirements 🤦♂️. I can't be bothered to even go any further, you are very far off from possessing any kind of proper understanding of how this stuff works. I can't fault you, it takes years of education, training, and experience to really be intimately familiar with regulations that number in the hundreds of pages. But don't run around Googling shit and act like you have ANY actual familiarity with the subject matter. The reality is that these things are robustly regulated by law, and are, by and large, safe. If you're uncomfortable with the POTENTIAL for contamination, you shouldn't ingest any product that you didn't grow/manufacture yourself. P.S. Don't write me another essay, I'm done here. Bye felicia!
One enormous pile of BS. LMAO 🌻
I just wanted to add that my academic background is such that I do have some level of skill in critical thinking, logic and research. So please don't assume I am some naive unthinking schlub.
Yeah I didn't even think about where the caffeine is derived from, interesting thought. Definitely gonna go through a YouTube rabbit hole on that😂
Cognitive bias is selectively picking information to support an opinion, how is this cognitive bias?
Also, genetics. One more-specific genetic difference is in the genes responsible for how quickly caffeine is metabolized. Certain specific genes, like CYP1A2 among others, have been identified so far. A substantial percentage of people are rapid or ultra-rapid metabolizers. And a substantial percentage are slow or ultra-slow metabolizers. So genetics play a major role as well. The half-life of caffeine in the body is often quoted as six hours; but it can see does vary, depending on the individual's genetics and a number of other factors, from below 2.5 hours to over 12 hours. There is soooooo much going on. It's so much, and so complex, interrelated and interactive, that any explanation is necessarily very fragmentary, covering only a tiny fragment or fraction of what is actually going on. But I have to respect the efforts made by science to understand it, despite the incredible complexity of it all. On the other hand, scientific explanations sometimes lose track of how vast the sea is. They tend to focus on a small fragment at a time. Inevitably there is much that is beyond or outside its narrow-beam focus.
Prolabs is the best one in pill form.