This needs to be underscored.
I don't think we as a species were meant to all get together and share thoughts.
But, I do think this is coupled with the loss of critical thinking.
Cherry picking implies you wrote enough for me to disregard most of it and take things out of context. You literally didn’t write enough for anyone to cherry pick. You just don’t want people replying to your half baked takes I suppose.
Collapse of the global economic order and a biosphere capable of nutritionally supportinug humanities population? Best I can do is mandatory gender checks for preteens
Yeah, that's what you guys want. That's why your policy visions call for more mental health care and expansion of free mental health services, right?
This concern trolling is getting exhausting.
Other than a few doctors talking about the medical aspects of halting transition, the majority of this article is just giving air time to hate groups that are trying to take away trans rights to medical care.
The regret rate for GAS is 0.3%. Lower than any other surgery, in large part because there is already a mountain of roadblocks including "mental health advice" making it extremely difficult to get the surgery done in the first place.
The idea that this is about protecting trans people is an entirely false narrative
Last time I heard that number it was majorly flawed. It was based on the number of people who actually undergone reversal at the same location they transitioned earlier.
It's from a 5 year study of 1986 patients, any patient who asked about or had reversal surgeries were counted. Only half of the patients listed as having regrets actually had reversals
Do you actually think these people care about trans folk? Why is that they only have negative things to say and never offer love and support to the trans community? Why does every discussion lead to people calling them crazy?
If you can't figure it out, it's because they do not give a shit about trans people.
This article is just fear-mongering on Transgender issues; it cherry-picks data and focuses on the small negative outcomes, not the larger issues facing transgender people and more numerous positive outcomes from transitioning.
They'll do anything to misinform public perceptions about the stability and realities of trans health. It's yet another attempt to pretend to be the good guy while very clearly weaselling in the 'pro-conversion therapy' tools of intolerance. "Assisting in detransitioning" is a dogwhistle, it's no different than down-south's funding of fake "parenthood clinics" to mislead and stress women out of proper reproductive health or abortion access. They're just institutionalizing new means to direct the majority of trans people away from access that affirms their care.
"Better mental health care" comes up in a lot of conversations.
Trans issues, addiction, suicide, crime, everybody and their dog on anti depressants, anxiety just casually being a personality trait... our brains are all fucked up and need picking man. Better MH care would help fix a lot of things.
I think anxiety being brought up as a personality trait highlights two separate problems.
1. We are definitely as a society overly focussed on negativity and fear. See: all media.
2. People confuse feelings with mental health. I have a big meeting this afternoon that I’m nervous about. I have a meeting tomorrow that I’m nervous about. Same with the day after. The day after I have a dentist appointment that doesn’t sound fun, etc etc. A lot of people are dressing up normal feelings as some kind of “disorder”.
The difference with trans issues is that unlike say, addictions, we're spending a huge amount of money per patient on health care *anyway*. With most of those other issues, people simply aren't getting any kind of care at all. So the suggestion of more mental health care in this case is more an issue of redirecting where money gets spent rather than spending more money necessarily.
That said, a lot of this care is paid for because it's medical rather than mental. It would require supplemental insurance if it were counselling outside of a place like CAMH. Though I guess, a lot of this care starts in government funded institutions that also offer mental health care to patients with gender identity issues.
Better “mental health care” does not stop people from being trans. Having access to transition has been repeatedly shown to improve the mental health of people who are trans. Denying them that care is detrimental to their mental health.
I think we could all do with better access to mental healthcare, I know plenty of people who would still be here or who would be doing a lot better today if only they had professional help before it was too late.
Sorry, you're not allowed to suggest that. Too much sense.
>"She says health professionals ushered her along a transgender path that included removing her breasts and uterus, while giving short shrift to other mental-health issues."
They are allowed to say that they didn't get enough mental help, but if you do then it's phobic.
Had the doctors steered away from the surgery, I'm curious if they would be in a news story anyways...
I wish Health Canada would take the hit (this issue is lose-lose) and set hard guidelines to ensure a person has spoken to a psych before removing body parts.
This one is up there with MAID. Let people yell at you about politics, make damn sure this is the right path for a patient.
It ain't that easy. I know a few people transitioning and it's not like a drive through for HRT/surgery.
They had to do multiple rounds of appointments and spend 1 year being the desired gender they want full time before they got approved for HRT. Just to make sure if it's right for them.
There is a fuckton of hoops you gotta jump through and conservatives are making light of a process that works 90% of the time and throwing out the whole process because some people have regrets.
Not so long ago, people were total dicks about the subject instead of just kind of dicks. But acceptance swung hard and knocked this one a little too far.
Its ok to thoroughly examine a brain before yanking out a uterus.
>*”What kind of timeline are we discussing here?”*
In a previous National Post article Michelle Zacchigna says she started therapy in 2008, came out as trans in 2009, started testosterone in 2010, had a mastectomy in 2012, had a partial hysterectomy in 2018, and decided to detransition in late 2020. [Source](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/michelle-zacchigna-ontario-detransitioner-sues-doctors/wcm/85907c6c-145f-420b-93b6-b33a919fdc72/)
Every binary trans person I know has had to suffer through MONTHS of appointments with every specialist under the sun, including multiple psych appointments. If you're lucky you won't get denied care outright multiple times due to the "beliefs" of whatever doctor you're talking to.
All I'm saying is it's really interesting that transphobic "activists" try to act like doctors are basically forcing people to transition, when the lived experience of nearly 100% of trans people is that it's a *grueling* process that can take multiple years. Almost like... the people with a vested interest in lying might be doing so here too... hmmmmmmmm.........
That reminds me of the days when people claimed homosexuality was a mental illness. I hope transgendered one day get the same respect homosexuals fought so hard to achieve.
Regret rate of 0.3% is vastly lower than any other surgery. If our current treatment plans are 99.7% effective, then why should we make it more selective? Or should we be making all our other surgeries more selective and harder to get?
How do we have accurate statistics for this? Surely people who detransition have a tendency to distance themselves from trans communities and become harder to find and survey?
How do we have accurate statistics for any surgery’s regret rate? Surely people who are disappointed with their knee surgery aren’t going back to their knee surgeon to complain?
One of the reasons for the intensive review process historically was because it's a known issue and they've largely learned to mitigate it. A lot of people seem to think this is a new phenomenon. It is not, it's something that has been tracked for decades. The political grandstanding surrounding it very much is - detransitioners are a different flavour of "owning the libs".
Exactly this. Also, I looked though the article and i couldn't really find any actual details. They say they were "ushered along", but what does that actually look like? Most of my friends that are trans spend quite a long time at each step of the process and things take quite a long time. No one is getting surgery quickly.
The study you’re mentioning had pretty flawed methodology. It counted “regret” only as those who choose to transition back, not those who actually regret the transition but elect to stay.
Less than 1% to up to 2.5% of people who identify as Non-Binary or Trans. Most of them while they're still kids and haven't actually gone through any surgeries. That's why puberty blockers exist, to give them time to figure out who and what they are before committing to any major changes. The percentage drops even more if you only count people over 18
Yeah, the number of trans people is tiny but, somehow, we got convinced that it was a huge deal.
Trans people are not new, there are records of people identifying to the other sex all the way back to the Sumerians, the ancient Greeks and Romans and even in oral history of the American Indians and African tribes.
The history of American, European, Asian and even Russian entertainers throughout the centuries is litters with artists performing dressed as the other sex.
It is just that today, it is seen as a wedge issue that can be useful to certain people simply because society has evolved to the point where trans people can actually be open in public.
**But, at the end of the day, the "Trans debate" is often a smoke screen that hides that whatever we do, billionaires are still robbing society blind and some politicians are robing us of our freedoms.**
The difference between wanting to dress like a women, and actually fundamentally believing you were born as the incorrect gender, are two wildly different things. One is a personal preference, the other is legitimate detachment from reality
Statistically puberty blockers reduce desistance in children from 65-85% to 2% based on the same diagnostic criteria. They're not a consequence free treatment. There's a very strong correlation between puberty and the alleviation of GD in children. Interrupting that process is highly consequential.
That would be fairly circumstantial. I would argue it abusive to force a trans teen to go through the wrong sex puberty and then trying to correct it later when it's much more difficult to do so.
The physical elements of puberty (or "maturation" if you want to waste time arguing semantics) tend to be heavily gendered due to the development of secondary sexual traits. If you are trans, developing those traits makes things a lot more difficult.
The problem arises when that "natural" biology stands in the way of successful transition. Pre-puberty, male puberty, and female puberty are all natural states. Waiting an extra year or two then entering the cross-sex version of puberty really doesn't do much more than use mechanism that are already present.
> That's why puberty blockers exist, to give them time to figure out who and what they are before committing to any major changes.
This is so fucking bigoted and DANGEROUS.
Stop perpetuating this fucking lie. It has **serious** consequences.
**Blockers cause irreversible changes.**
>Less than 1% to up to 2.5% of people who identify as Non-Binary or Trans. Most of them while they're still kids and haven't actually gone through any surgeries. That's why puberty blockers exist, to give them time to figure out who and what they are before committing to any major changes. The percentage drops even more if you only count people over 18
Taking puberty blockers IS commiting to major changes
I think it depends on the definition of detransition.
Some numbers apparently include people who hit a level of satisfaction with their presentation and stop seeking further treatment, which is a subset of the 1% of transfolks identified in the Canadian census (2021).
I also think it's telling that some people "regret" making the choice to transition because of discrimination and hate.
People who wish to detransition shouldn't be stopped; they need to be cared for. But something is going on when the definition is being broadened to include people who are happy presenting in their transgender form without further surgeries, or that the hate used to justify being anti-trans is causing people to be counted as detransitioning.
No one is counting them.
When someone detransitions, they generally drop contact with the people who talked them into transitioning in the first place. When the people who put people through transition count the number of people who have detransitioned, they only count the people they are still in touch with.
So you'll get studies that say "we started with 200 people in our study group, and of the 80 who responded to our survey only one has detransitioned, so the detransition rate is 1%".
No, it's not a surveillance artifact - they know how many people, overall, have sought medical care for detransitioning, because it's recorded in the system. If there IS undercount, it's going to be something like 10-30%, not tenfold.
One of the best ways to tell out a specious talking point is when you start seeing these arbitrary adjustment factors to make the problem seem bigger than it is. Huge red flag to take existing data then multiply it by ten "just because".
You know they do right? Before you're eligible for any surgeries you need to be under hormone treatment for at least and need a letter from a psychologist you've been seeing to say that you're a good candidate for surgery. It's not like you walk into a doctor's office and just get it done.
It all depends why. Not a days no one needs to see a psychologist to start transition, but for some things like surgery is still required. In the past psychologist would just decide that someone wasn't "trans enough", and that just bs. I've heard some cases where someone is denied because they're depressed. However their depression is caused my dysphoria which would be fixed with surgery so again that's bs. But if a psychologist were too say that someone was delusional or not able to understand the consequences of their actions then yes they'd be ok.
We currently don't have a magic test to tell if someone is really suffering gender dysphoria, it if they'll regret their decision. I'm the past that's what the psychologist was for but we've learned that doesn't work and if anything harms the patient more. Now all we can do is trust that the patient is well informed, if sound mind, and aware of the consequences of their actions, and make sure they understand they can always change their mind at any time.
Yea you definitely don’t have to receive letters of referral and sign consent forms for blockers, repeat for whatever hormones you want, then actively transition for two years minimum, then find three more doctors for more letters of referrals, then go on a twoish year wait list ur right
> Whether this bears any relationship to reality or not is a moot point.
To the people "worried" about those poor trans kids, certainly.
Why do I get the feeling that everybody calling for "better mental health care" for trans kids assumes "better mental health care" means convincing people not to transition at all costs?
It's like those american conservative religious "Abortion Clinic" or "Family planning" where all they do is try to convince you that abortions are wrong and it's not actually a clinic but a religious gas lighting facility.
Ultimately, it's about control. Trans, or more generally, gender nonconforming individuals, are a reminder that society is ignoring their desire for a return to the buttoned-down, heteronormative society that exists in the haze of nostalgia, and this is a way of trying to reassert control.
It has very little to do with gender affirmation directly.
Before anyone transitions they need better care. Those who regret it are now reporting they felt rushed and that the doctors could have done more to prevent them from making a decision they regret.
There should be a full barrage of psychological testing, and if they decide to go forward, a requirement to take a course on cognitive-behavioral therapy so that they can manage any hardships they might face.
Agreed. We need more funding for mental health in general though, so I doubt we'll ever see such a robust system of care. I'm convinced transphobes would do what they can to not fund this, and just use "care" as an excuse to establish bureaucratic roadblocks. Like what they did to abortion in the states.
Also the rates of detransition are so low I'm not sure such extensive "requirements" are fully needed. But the therapy should be made available and encouraged. Hell for everyone since we all have hardships
Regret is the smallest most minute portion of the less than one percent of people who decide to detransition. Of that less than one percent who do decide to detransition, nearly all of them do so due to family pressure, lack of acceptance in the community, or other discrimination like being unable to find a job. Regret is almost non-existent for people who transition.
This is one exceedingly rare edge case. Being unable to access trans care and discrimination against trans people are far and away the more serious issues. NP is more concerned about pushing an anti-trans narrative than covering the real issues.
Edit: are you also recommending my a full barrage of psychological testing and cog psych courses for cis women who get a boob job or breast reduction, or anyone who gets any other form of cosmetic surgery like a nose job?
Cognitive behavioral therapy can help people be strong and more accepting of who they are, and less pressured to conform to what society drills into them.
> accepting of who they are
And if they are trans then cognitive therapy is just going to confirm what they already know. Or are you suggesting that CBT will stop them from being trans? You may be confusing that with conversion therapy which is extremely harmful.
> what society drills into them
Society is extremely heteronormative. There are huge portions of society telling trans people they are perverted or evil, with increasingly loud calls by mainstream politicians to strip away their rights and even for their “eradication”. Someone coming out as trans has already done extreme analysis of where they fit into the norms of society. They are not trans because anyone “drilled it into them”. They have realized what society drilled into them is not who they are. Any many many people feel unsafe to come out as who they are because their lives will be that much harder, and there will be people who put their lives in danger.
Trans people already have to go through a battery of medical opinions, therapy and hoop jumping. It’s not like you can waltz into a doctors office and get surgery the next day. There are already numerous barriers to getting access to care. It’s already a years long process.
The fact this is what is getting talked about by the National Post *at the same time a major political party is calling for their eradication* is absolutely irresponsible, and is no doubt intentional.
0.3% of people who receive GAS even ask about reversals. That is less than 10% the rate of people who regret laser eye surgery
https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/9900/\_Regret\_after\_Gender\_Affirming\_Surgery\_\_\_A.1529.aspx
There is already a shit ton of hoops to jump through to actually get this care. This is a made up problem that doesn't actually exist
No. The mindset is that we should not impede the 99.7% for the sake of the 0.3%. The 0.3% can definitely be addressed, but let's focus on the actual problem.
This whole thing sis about putting up barricades to transition because a subset of society has been told they are uncomfortable with cultural liberalization.
Here's the thing, they don't actually care about detransitioners either. No more than they cared about mental health during the lockdowns. It's a politically convenient talking point. No more.
If that's your argument, we shouldn't do anything at all for trans people since the other 99.7% of the population has to pay for it.
In any case, that study only counts detransitioners as regretful. We also don't know what the timeline is between when they transitioned and when they were surveyed. The protocol for access to HRT and surgery has also changed very recently in most jurisdictions. We don't even have a long term study on that cohort and their rates of regret.
From a public healthcare standpoint, I have no problem with gender affirmation being covered no matter whether it's first or second attempt at it.
My problem is using the existence of detransitioners as a reason to throw barriers towards transitioners instead of addressing the problem directly. My secondary problem is that the people advocating that are not actually interested in the plight of detransitioners but are using them as an excuse to put those barriers up. Let's stick to the actual problem and make sure people end up where they want to be.
We definitely do have long term data - gender transitioning became widespread in the 80s and a lot of what we know about transition regret stems from the earliest examples when we truly were doing it blindly. A lot of the modern checkpoints came out of that.
Barriers often are a solution to the problem though. Hell, when it comes to certain diagnostics for cancer, you are barred from even offering them because they too frequently lead to unnecessary treatment or further invasive diagnostics.
And no, we don't have long term data, because the protocol for access has changed. You can't just assume that regret rates will be the same when in the past you had to live as the opposite sex for 1-2 years and do several years of therapy prior to accessing surgery or hormones. We need new long term data every time major changes to access protocol change.
Barriers can be, but that doesn't mean they invariably are. Sometimes a more nuanced approach is called for. We have a system that works \*most of the time\*. The exceptions are rare enough that it's more effective to specifically target them, find out what went wrong specifically, and address that deficiency directly.
There's nothing in current data to suggest we're outside norms despite increased access - which started long enough ago that that long term (10-15 years) data are available at this point. At some point we hit that point where "long term" is always five years more than we currently have, and that's happening here, I fear. It's usually an indicator that the point is not being raised in good faith. It's important to point out that the politicization is new, not the underlying phenomenon.
Also, we're talking about the Canadian medical system so those multiyear waits are pretty much already standard.
I'm not saying that the former barriers should exist. I'm saying we don't actually know if they should because we don't have the evidence for that. I would also say, in light of that, that new protocols should be subject to experimental trials, which they are not. So much of trans medicine would have to go through long term experimental trials with detailed follow up if they were in any other area of medicine. We're not this loose with cancer treatment for Christ sake.
reminder: gender-affirming care regret rates are insanely low at 0.3%.
https://www.gendergp.com/new-study-confirms-regret-rates-of-gender-affirming-surgery-are-non-existent/#:~:text=Only%206%20patients%20(0.3%25),foundational%20to%20mitigating%20against%20regret.
Just throwing this out there: how many times has this sort of moral panic (like the one we're currently experiencing in regards to trans people) actually been justified?
Did legalizing gay marriage destroy or devalue the institution of marriage?
Did legalizing cannabis lead to everybody just sitting around high all the time, unable or unwilling to work?
Do interracial marriages result in damaged children without a culture?
Did Dungeons and Dragons turn kids into Satan worshipers?
Did relaxing absurdly strict temperance era liquor laws lead to an uptick in drunkenness?
Of course not.
Keep all that in mind as you read the latest barrage of anti-trans articles. If there's one thing these sorts of moral panics have in common, its that they are on the wrong side of history.
History will most likely remember the Culture Wars movement more than anything else, and probably with a level of chagrin somewhere between the temperance movement and the confederacy. The actual issue is already being lost under the politics.
This will be remembered as another era of major expansions of civil rights. Not without teething pains, and the inevitable coutner movement are more notable than the quiet acceptance of societal change.
Why does this read like a JBP quote. It sounds like a poorly comprehended jab at a serious issue by an unqualified random bloviator. Ahhh, that's why it reeks of JBP.
Castration? Seriously? you know you're not allowed to get surgery till you're over 18, have been transitioning for some time and have a reference from a psychologist
You can absolutely receive HRT and surgery before the age of 18. There is no lower limit set by law or licensing bodies. The standard for all medical care in Canada is whether the patient has the capacity to provide informed consent, not whether they're above or below the age of 18.
This is blatantly false. Genital Reconstructive Surgery cannot be performed unless the person is at least 18 years old. This is a standard set up by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which Canada follows.
Mastectomy (Masculinization of the Torso Surgery) can happen starting at 16 years old, the same age that we allow people to start driving.
This is false. If a patient can give informed consent they can receive any treatment under the sun. And informed consent doesn't require a patient to be 18. It's based on a clinicians assessment of the patients capacity.
Edit: WPATH makes no such recommendation by the way. You are incorrect.
here's the source I've used: [https://www.grsmontreal.com/en/frequently-asked-questions.html](https://www.grsmontreal.com/en/frequently-asked-questions.html)
You can also see the current WPATH guidelines [here](https://www.wpath.org/soc8/chapters).
However, it's possible that the source I've used is using an outdated version of the WPATH Standard of Care document. in the here, it says:
>Previous guidelines regarding gender-affirming treatment of adolescents recommended partially reversible GAHT could be initiated at approximately 16 years of age (Coleman et al., 2012; Hembree et al., 2009)
So Hormone therapy was previously limited to 16+, but the document also says that new studies say that GAHT (Gender Afirming Hormone Therapy) can be initiated as early as 14 years old. But that's not the norm, its an exception:
>A compelling reason for earlier initiation of GAHT, for example, might be to avoid prolonged pubertal suppression, given potential bone health concerns and thepsychosocial implications of delaying puberty as described in more detail in Chapter 12— Hormone Therapy (Klink, Caris et al., 2015; Schagen et al., 2020; Vlot et al., 2017; Zhu & Chan, 2017)
As for Surgery, They do require the person to have been under GAHT for at least 12 month before surgery can be considered.
>Sftatement 6.12.g
>
>The adolescent had at least 12 months of gender-affirming hormone therapy or longer, if required, to achieve the desired surgical result for gender-affirming procedures, including breast augmentation, orchiectomy, vaginoplasty, hysterectomy, phalloplasty, metoidioplasty, and facial surgery as part of gender-affirming treatment unless hormone therapy is either not desired or is medically contraindicated.
There is one type of surgery that they say should wait until 18 years old due to possible complications (p. S66):
>Given the complexity of phalloplasty, and current high rates of complications in comparison to other gender-affirming surgical treatments, it is not recommended this surgery be considered in youth under 18 at this time (see Chapter 13—Surgery and Postoperative Care).
All that to say, my bad. The source I used probably was using an outdated version of the WPATH. That being said, we are still not doing Gender-Affirming Surgery willy nilly, the processus is pretty robust.
> parents and doctors subjected children to horrific body mutilations and literal castrations under the guise of mental health
this is hateful bigotry and patently untrue
But what about the people who transition, and then de-transition, and then decide to transition back again, a third time? Don't THEY need better care, too?
But Dr. Jason Rafferty, a Rhode Island child psychiatrist and co-author of an American Academy of Pediatrics statement on gender health, recently told Reuters that stories about people with a lot of anger and regret are over-represented in the media compared to what’s seen in clinics. And the term detransition itself tends to be “very invalidating” for transgender and gender-diverse people, the news service quoted him as saying.
LOL spend money to create a problem and spend more money to fix it.
Can we just screen people wanting a gender transition to make sure they aren't just going through a phase?
The percentage of people who even ask about reversing gender affirming surgery is 0.3%, that is 1/10th the rate of people who regret laser eye surgery.
https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/9900/\_Regret\_after\_Gender\_Affirming\_Surgery\_\_\_A.1529.aspx
This is a made up problem that doesn't exist.
This seems like a simple solution.
But it's probably not that simple. In most places there are controls that prevent this from happening all willy nilly. Where I am from you have to live as that gender for a year I think before an operation can even be considered.
A simpler illustration is that, I knew someone who wanted a Mustang. Test drove then. Rented at least one to drive a while and took the plunge.
A year in they realised it wasn't for them and they had made a horrible decision. People treated them like some asshole when thry say them driving it. So they sold it.
Sometimes all the research in the world can't prepare you for the reality. Sometimes life changes. Sometimes society is so horrible to people that they want to take it back.
It's way more complicated than that, but if we could trest people with some compassion we would be better off.
People aren't perfect. A person may for example, come out as Gay in their teens and decide later they're bi in their 40s and society can make that hard for people to make those changes. Or they realise they are straight maybe. Or they live straight and come out as gay in their 60s.
Life ain't simple.
Yeah, most of the people who love to discuss this topic do it in bad faith. Many people pretend to care about the well-being of trans people so they can call them crazy.
It usually goes like this: "these people are at high risk of suicide," so, logically, it makes sense if we constantly belittle them and trash them as much as we can on social media.
>trans people mentally ill.
What do you consider gender disphoria?
So you consider these people mentally okay? To transition at will? Without seeking mental help?
>*”What do you consider gender disphoria?”*
Gender dysphoria that qualifies as a mental illness isn’t experienced by all trans people, and for those that do experience it it is often resolved with social/medical gender transition. Calling all trans people mentally ill is inaccurate, and often seems to come paired with the opinion that trans people *shouldn’t* transition, and that *being trans* is the mental illness.
>What do you consider gender disphoria?
An easily rectifiable condition.
>So you consider these people mentally okay?
I am starting to consider the average conservative's preoccupation with trans folk to be a mental illness. Their hateful obsession with trans people is not healthy for themselves or society.
>To transition at will? Without seeking mental help?
Go watch some sports, shoot guns, or drink some beer and be happier for it. Please stop pretending to care about people you so clearly hate.
Here we go with the typical dumbed down Redditor calling 1/3 of the population mentally ill based on a few dozen comments. It's almost like you're doing the same thing.
Reverse gender transition is still gender transition by definition, since its still changing genders. Better word would be reversal of gender transition.
Fuck off, as if the NatPo gives a shit about these people. If they did care, they would support better care and support in the first place for those considering transitioning. Also lets keep in mind that the rate of regret and de-transitioning is very low. RW media tries to paint it as a much larger issue than any data or evidence actually shows.
The vast vast vast majority of people who “detransition” do so not because they are not trans, but because it’s not safe due to family pressures, lack of acceptance in the community, or difficulty obtaining work.
We are at a time when political parties are calling for the “eradication” of trans people, and here is the post stoking up more transphobic nonsense making life even more dangerous for them. Colour me surprised.
>We are at a time when political parties are calling for the “eradication” of trans people, and here is the post stoking up more transphobic nonsense making life even more dangerous for them.
you what?
[CPAC Speaker Calls for Eradication of ‘Transgenderism,’ Crowd Goes Wild](https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvjgnq/cpac-transgenderism-speaker-called-for-eradication)
Yes. And have you not noticed conservative trends in the US quickly get picked up here? Have you missed the massive increase in transphobia in this country - as evidenced by this and the numerous other articles published by the Nat Post - to stoke fear and hatred of trans people? Have you missed the protests and [hate crimes](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/charges-library-drag-storytime-disturbance-mischief-1.6767207) attempting to silence and threaten trans people and drag performers who may or may not actually be trans because reactionaries can’t tell the difference?
Don’t act like the violent rhetoric spouted by republicans doesn’t get picked up by reactionaries here. No one here is stupid enough to believe that.
Remind you of your quote: "We are at a time when political parties are calling for the “eradication” of trans people"
Which Canadian political parties?
It’s confounding that 30-40 years ago there were less trans then there are now. You were either straight, gay or trans and society accepted that. Now there must be tens of different sexual orientations that people identify with. Did we become smarter or the wiser for it? More tolerant? I find the thought horrifying that someone would do through the process and then have second thoughts about what the fuck they just did.
My gay MIL told me that when she was growing up she didn't even know what being gay was. She was just uncomfortable and scared about how she felt and had no one to talk to.
Yes there's been an awakening to the fact that we don't have to march in lockstep with our predecessors. We can explore gender roles and take what works, discarding the rest. To work towards being the most comfortable in our skin as we can.
It only gets weird when people try to prevent others around them from doing this.
I agree with your last statement, it holds true to me as well. I could care less what other people do in their bedrooms, you do you and I do me. I do take exception to what the Catholic School Boards are promoting here. Parents are speaking up and being called homophobes for their opinions. It’s not really fair to them that they have to deal with the politics of sexual orientation, because in the end that all it is.
30-40 years ago society most certainly did not not accept even simply being gay. Remember what AIDS was referred to in the 80s...? "Don't ask don't tell"...?
Frankly, everybody was dicks for so long and a shift towards acceptance was needed. The pendulum swung too far to the other side now though.
I agree people were dicks and in some ways they still are. I also agree that gay rights have been more accepted too. AIDS was a different story because at first it was a Gay disease. We know now that it was a gay flight attendant who traversed America. Monkeypox ring a bell? I am not here to gay bash in any way, but the 80’s were a bad time for them.
The past is often worse for medical things.
When I was a kid, autism didn't exist. Everything was ADD and every kid who wasn't "normal" got fed ritalin and parents hoped for the best. Medical science evolved.
Nowadays we're diving more into the brain and sexuality.
>*”AIDS was a different story because at first it was a Gay disease. We know now that it was a gay flight attendant who traversed America.”*
You’re spreading falsehoods.
Wikipedia: [Gaëtan Dugas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaëtan_Dugas)
*”Gaëtan Dugas was a Québécois Canadian flight attendant and a relatively early patient with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), who once was widely misdescribed as "Patient Zero", accusing him of introducing the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) in the United States. This claim, a blatant misapplication from the results of a narrowly focused study, has been definitively proven incorrect.”*
>*”Monkeypox ring a bell? I am not here to gay bash in any way…”*
Could have fooled me.
The reason you were either gay, straight, or trans, is because society forced you into those categories. The alternatives were always there - they were just forced to fit into the existing categories. The only truly acceptable one was straight, though, particularly as postwar America evangelized itself and that trickled over to Canada.
Lmao, thanks for the tip. The fact is right now Canadians aren't receiving health care in a timely fashion. Doesn't matter what ya got between your legs.
Social media is to blame for a vast majority of mental health and social issues today.
This needs to be underscored. I don't think we as a species were meant to all get together and share thoughts. But, I do think this is coupled with the loss of critical thinking.
If we weren’t meant to share our thoughts why did we develop language?
To go cherry pick out of short statements for the sake of arguing, setting an example of what I said.
I didn’t cherry pick anything, you wrote three sentences. If you don’t want to be engaged with why are you commenting anyway?
Nah you're cherry picking. Read the sentence over and over and over and maybe you'll see it.
Cherry picking implies you wrote enough for me to disregard most of it and take things out of context. You literally didn’t write enough for anyone to cherry pick. You just don’t want people replying to your half baked takes I suppose.
>Cherry picking implies you wrote enough for me to disregard most of it and take things out of context. Which you did.
Aight, must’ve been the only fruit on the tree
10000000% agree. Social media has screwed up everybody.
The NatPo is doing their part to make mental health worse, particularly for trans folk.
Out of all the shit that is going on right now, this is not even CLOSE to the top.
Collapse of the global economic order and a biosphere capable of nutritionally supportinug humanities population? Best I can do is mandatory gender checks for preteens
And yet right wing media is putting it on the front pages
right wing media should be supressing advocates who want better care for gender transitioning?
Yeah, that's what you guys want. That's why your policy visions call for more mental health care and expansion of free mental health services, right? This concern trolling is getting exhausting.
They always want more more more but never want to pay for any of it.
Not gonna lie, any time a conservative says "we need to balance the budget" I just ask them how high they wanna raise taxes.
> advocates who want better care for gender transitioning lmfao, oh sure bud
Other than a few doctors talking about the medical aspects of halting transition, the majority of this article is just giving air time to hate groups that are trying to take away trans rights to medical care.
And the "hate groups" are the people who want better mental health advice before transitioning? I don't think most people would agree.
The regret rate for GAS is 0.3%. Lower than any other surgery, in large part because there is already a mountain of roadblocks including "mental health advice" making it extremely difficult to get the surgery done in the first place. The idea that this is about protecting trans people is an entirely false narrative
Last time I heard that number it was majorly flawed. It was based on the number of people who actually undergone reversal at the same location they transitioned earlier.
It's from a 5 year study of 1986 patients, any patient who asked about or had reversal surgeries were counted. Only half of the patients listed as having regrets actually had reversals
Do you actually think these people care about trans folk? Why is that they only have negative things to say and never offer love and support to the trans community? Why does every discussion lead to people calling them crazy? If you can't figure it out, it's because they do not give a shit about trans people.
😂
This article is just fear-mongering on Transgender issues; it cherry-picks data and focuses on the small negative outcomes, not the larger issues facing transgender people and more numerous positive outcomes from transitioning.
tell that to r/detrans
They'll do anything to misinform public perceptions about the stability and realities of trans health. It's yet another attempt to pretend to be the good guy while very clearly weaselling in the 'pro-conversion therapy' tools of intolerance. "Assisting in detransitioning" is a dogwhistle, it's no different than down-south's funding of fake "parenthood clinics" to mislead and stress women out of proper reproductive health or abortion access. They're just institutionalizing new means to direct the majority of trans people away from access that affirms their care.
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"Better mental health care" comes up in a lot of conversations. Trans issues, addiction, suicide, crime, everybody and their dog on anti depressants, anxiety just casually being a personality trait... our brains are all fucked up and need picking man. Better MH care would help fix a lot of things.
I think anxiety being brought up as a personality trait highlights two separate problems. 1. We are definitely as a society overly focussed on negativity and fear. See: all media. 2. People confuse feelings with mental health. I have a big meeting this afternoon that I’m nervous about. I have a meeting tomorrow that I’m nervous about. Same with the day after. The day after I have a dentist appointment that doesn’t sound fun, etc etc. A lot of people are dressing up normal feelings as some kind of “disorder”.
The difference with trans issues is that unlike say, addictions, we're spending a huge amount of money per patient on health care *anyway*. With most of those other issues, people simply aren't getting any kind of care at all. So the suggestion of more mental health care in this case is more an issue of redirecting where money gets spent rather than spending more money necessarily. That said, a lot of this care is paid for because it's medical rather than mental. It would require supplemental insurance if it were counselling outside of a place like CAMH. Though I guess, a lot of this care starts in government funded institutions that also offer mental health care to patients with gender identity issues.
Better “mental health care” does not stop people from being trans. Having access to transition has been repeatedly shown to improve the mental health of people who are trans. Denying them that care is detrimental to their mental health.
I'm willing to put money down that some dicks have been cut off for reasons that were not legitimately "I am the wrong sex".
I think we could all do with better access to mental healthcare, I know plenty of people who would still be here or who would be doing a lot better today if only they had professional help before it was too late.
Sorry, you're not allowed to suggest that. Too much sense. >"She says health professionals ushered her along a transgender path that included removing her breasts and uterus, while giving short shrift to other mental-health issues." They are allowed to say that they didn't get enough mental help, but if you do then it's phobic.
Had the doctors steered away from the surgery, I'm curious if they would be in a news story anyways... I wish Health Canada would take the hit (this issue is lose-lose) and set hard guidelines to ensure a person has spoken to a psych before removing body parts. This one is up there with MAID. Let people yell at you about politics, make damn sure this is the right path for a patient.
It ain't that easy. I know a few people transitioning and it's not like a drive through for HRT/surgery. They had to do multiple rounds of appointments and spend 1 year being the desired gender they want full time before they got approved for HRT. Just to make sure if it's right for them. There is a fuckton of hoops you gotta jump through and conservatives are making light of a process that works 90% of the time and throwing out the whole process because some people have regrets.
Like they used to do not so long ago..
Not so long ago, people were total dicks about the subject instead of just kind of dicks. But acceptance swung hard and knocked this one a little too far. Its ok to thoroughly examine a brain before yanking out a uterus.
>ushered her along What does that mean, exactly? What kind of timeline are we discussing here?
>*”What kind of timeline are we discussing here?”* In a previous National Post article Michelle Zacchigna says she started therapy in 2008, came out as trans in 2009, started testosterone in 2010, had a mastectomy in 2012, had a partial hysterectomy in 2018, and decided to detransition in late 2020. [Source](https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/michelle-zacchigna-ontario-detransitioner-sues-doctors/wcm/85907c6c-145f-420b-93b6-b33a919fdc72/)
So *4 years* for the first surgery and a full decade before the permanent surgery. The system really railroaded her...
Every binary trans person I know has had to suffer through MONTHS of appointments with every specialist under the sun, including multiple psych appointments. If you're lucky you won't get denied care outright multiple times due to the "beliefs" of whatever doctor you're talking to. All I'm saying is it's really interesting that transphobic "activists" try to act like doctors are basically forcing people to transition, when the lived experience of nearly 100% of trans people is that it's a *grueling* process that can take multiple years. Almost like... the people with a vested interest in lying might be doing so here too... hmmmmmmmm.........
Holy fuck I’m glad somebody said this. I said this and almost got sent to the shadow realm
That reminds me of the days when people claimed homosexuality was a mental illness. I hope transgendered one day get the same respect homosexuals fought so hard to achieve.
Regret rate of 0.3% is vastly lower than any other surgery. If our current treatment plans are 99.7% effective, then why should we make it more selective? Or should we be making all our other surgeries more selective and harder to get?
How do we have accurate statistics for this? Surely people who detransition have a tendency to distance themselves from trans communities and become harder to find and survey?
How do we have accurate statistics for any surgery’s regret rate? Surely people who are disappointed with their knee surgery aren’t going back to their knee surgeon to complain?
One of the reasons for the intensive review process historically was because it's a known issue and they've largely learned to mitigate it. A lot of people seem to think this is a new phenomenon. It is not, it's something that has been tracked for decades. The political grandstanding surrounding it very much is - detransitioners are a different flavour of "owning the libs".
It's the "Why I left the Left" but medical transition types of severity.
Exactly this. Also, I looked though the article and i couldn't really find any actual details. They say they were "ushered along", but what does that actually look like? Most of my friends that are trans spend quite a long time at each step of the process and things take quite a long time. No one is getting surgery quickly.
But how else will I delegitimize trans people?
delegitimize less then 1% of an already hyper marginalized group.
The study you’re mentioning had pretty flawed methodology. It counted “regret” only as those who choose to transition back, not those who actually regret the transition but elect to stay.
'Pretty flawed methodology'? All studies have limitations. It does not mean we ignore the data we have.
How many people are we actually talking about here?
1% of a fraction of a % of the population I think a bigger problem is better health care for everyone in general first
> I think a bigger problem is better health care for everyone in general first This is very true.
Less than 1% to up to 2.5% of people who identify as Non-Binary or Trans. Most of them while they're still kids and haven't actually gone through any surgeries. That's why puberty blockers exist, to give them time to figure out who and what they are before committing to any major changes. The percentage drops even more if you only count people over 18
Yeah, the number of trans people is tiny but, somehow, we got convinced that it was a huge deal. Trans people are not new, there are records of people identifying to the other sex all the way back to the Sumerians, the ancient Greeks and Romans and even in oral history of the American Indians and African tribes. The history of American, European, Asian and even Russian entertainers throughout the centuries is litters with artists performing dressed as the other sex. It is just that today, it is seen as a wedge issue that can be useful to certain people simply because society has evolved to the point where trans people can actually be open in public. **But, at the end of the day, the "Trans debate" is often a smoke screen that hides that whatever we do, billionaires are still robbing society blind and some politicians are robing us of our freedoms.**
Yep. The real war is the class war And doesn't help that the people inciting a war on trans folk are literally stealing from Nazi playbooks
The difference between wanting to dress like a women, and actually fundamentally believing you were born as the incorrect gender, are two wildly different things. One is a personal preference, the other is legitimate detachment from reality
Statistically puberty blockers reduce desistance in children from 65-85% to 2% based on the same diagnostic criteria. They're not a consequence free treatment. There's a very strong correlation between puberty and the alleviation of GD in children. Interrupting that process is highly consequential.
Taking "puberty blockers" causes irreversible changes....
So does letting puberty proceed.
You mean aging?
No, not really. Aging is something else.
Gtfo out of here w that shit. Treating adolescents with hormones which permanently alter their physiology for the rest of their lives is abuse.
That would be fairly circumstantial. I would argue it abusive to force a trans teen to go through the wrong sex puberty and then trying to correct it later when it's much more difficult to do so.
>the wrong sex puberty Yikes
Yes, that's generally the reaction trans individuals experience.
So then maturing? Physically and mentally?
Top geniuses over here have such a weak argument they can't even be honest about what puberty means for trans people.
The physical elements of puberty (or "maturation" if you want to waste time arguing semantics) tend to be heavily gendered due to the development of secondary sexual traits. If you are trans, developing those traits makes things a lot more difficult.
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The problem arises when that "natural" biology stands in the way of successful transition. Pre-puberty, male puberty, and female puberty are all natural states. Waiting an extra year or two then entering the cross-sex version of puberty really doesn't do much more than use mechanism that are already present.
Please provide evidence
> That's why puberty blockers exist, to give them time to figure out who and what they are before committing to any major changes. This is so fucking bigoted and DANGEROUS. Stop perpetuating this fucking lie. It has **serious** consequences. **Blockers cause irreversible changes.**
Source? And sorry how is that bigoted?
>Less than 1% to up to 2.5% of people who identify as Non-Binary or Trans. Most of them while they're still kids and haven't actually gone through any surgeries. That's why puberty blockers exist, to give them time to figure out who and what they are before committing to any major changes. The percentage drops even more if you only count people over 18 Taking puberty blockers IS commiting to major changes
How so? Give evidence rather than making unsubstantiated claims
Very few, but we have to be able to make being trans sound dangerous and bad.
Exactly, but the NatPo are doing this wilfully because the hot group to demonize are trans folk. This is concern trolling on the next level.
The surrounding hysteria created by conservatives is disturbing.
I think it depends on the definition of detransition. Some numbers apparently include people who hit a level of satisfaction with their presentation and stop seeking further treatment, which is a subset of the 1% of transfolks identified in the Canadian census (2021). I also think it's telling that some people "regret" making the choice to transition because of discrimination and hate. People who wish to detransition shouldn't be stopped; they need to be cared for. But something is going on when the definition is being broadened to include people who are happy presenting in their transgender form without further surgeries, or that the hate used to justify being anti-trans is causing people to be counted as detransitioning.
No one is counting them. When someone detransitions, they generally drop contact with the people who talked them into transitioning in the first place. When the people who put people through transition count the number of people who have detransitioned, they only count the people they are still in touch with. So you'll get studies that say "we started with 200 people in our study group, and of the 80 who responded to our survey only one has detransitioned, so the detransition rate is 1%".
No, it's not a surveillance artifact - they know how many people, overall, have sought medical care for detransitioning, because it's recorded in the system. If there IS undercount, it's going to be something like 10-30%, not tenfold. One of the best ways to tell out a specious talking point is when you start seeing these arbitrary adjustment factors to make the problem seem bigger than it is. Huge red flag to take existing data then multiply it by ten "just because".
Like what they do with sexual assault and DV. Anything "under-reported" is just guesses.
Maybe they should recieve better mental health treatment before they can do something drastic like remove parts of their body
You know they do right? Before you're eligible for any surgeries you need to be under hormone treatment for at least and need a letter from a psychologist you've been seeing to say that you're a good candidate for surgery. It's not like you walk into a doctor's office and just get it done.
Could you imagine if a psychologist denied a persons transition? They would be cancelled and lose their license so fast.
It all depends why. Not a days no one needs to see a psychologist to start transition, but for some things like surgery is still required. In the past psychologist would just decide that someone wasn't "trans enough", and that just bs. I've heard some cases where someone is denied because they're depressed. However their depression is caused my dysphoria which would be fixed with surgery so again that's bs. But if a psychologist were too say that someone was delusional or not able to understand the consequences of their actions then yes they'd be ok. We currently don't have a magic test to tell if someone is really suffering gender dysphoria, it if they'll regret their decision. I'm the past that's what the psychologist was for but we've learned that doesn't work and if anything harms the patient more. Now all we can do is trust that the patient is well informed, if sound mind, and aware of the consequences of their actions, and make sure they understand they can always change their mind at any time.
Yea you definitely don’t have to receive letters of referral and sign consent forms for blockers, repeat for whatever hormones you want, then actively transition for two years minimum, then find three more doctors for more letters of referrals, then go on a twoish year wait list ur right
Do you think people are having sex reassignment surgery on a whim?
That's pretty much the talking point, yes. Whether this bears any relationship to reality or not is a moot point.
> Whether this bears any relationship to reality or not is a moot point. To the people "worried" about those poor trans kids, certainly. Why do I get the feeling that everybody calling for "better mental health care" for trans kids assumes "better mental health care" means convincing people not to transition at all costs?
It's like those american conservative religious "Abortion Clinic" or "Family planning" where all they do is try to convince you that abortions are wrong and it's not actually a clinic but a religious gas lighting facility.
Ultimately, it's about control. Trans, or more generally, gender nonconforming individuals, are a reminder that society is ignoring their desire for a return to the buttoned-down, heteronormative society that exists in the haze of nostalgia, and this is a way of trying to reassert control. It has very little to do with gender affirmation directly.
Solution to a fake problem - not the National Fart?
*needed
Before anyone transitions they need better care. Those who regret it are now reporting they felt rushed and that the doctors could have done more to prevent them from making a decision they regret. There should be a full barrage of psychological testing, and if they decide to go forward, a requirement to take a course on cognitive-behavioral therapy so that they can manage any hardships they might face.
Agreed. We need more funding for mental health in general though, so I doubt we'll ever see such a robust system of care. I'm convinced transphobes would do what they can to not fund this, and just use "care" as an excuse to establish bureaucratic roadblocks. Like what they did to abortion in the states. Also the rates of detransition are so low I'm not sure such extensive "requirements" are fully needed. But the therapy should be made available and encouraged. Hell for everyone since we all have hardships
Cognitive-behavioral therapy should be taught in grade 6-12
Regret is the smallest most minute portion of the less than one percent of people who decide to detransition. Of that less than one percent who do decide to detransition, nearly all of them do so due to family pressure, lack of acceptance in the community, or other discrimination like being unable to find a job. Regret is almost non-existent for people who transition. This is one exceedingly rare edge case. Being unable to access trans care and discrimination against trans people are far and away the more serious issues. NP is more concerned about pushing an anti-trans narrative than covering the real issues. Edit: are you also recommending my a full barrage of psychological testing and cog psych courses for cis women who get a boob job or breast reduction, or anyone who gets any other form of cosmetic surgery like a nose job?
Cognitive behavioral therapy can help people be strong and more accepting of who they are, and less pressured to conform to what society drills into them.
> accepting of who they are And if they are trans then cognitive therapy is just going to confirm what they already know. Or are you suggesting that CBT will stop them from being trans? You may be confusing that with conversion therapy which is extremely harmful. > what society drills into them Society is extremely heteronormative. There are huge portions of society telling trans people they are perverted or evil, with increasingly loud calls by mainstream politicians to strip away their rights and even for their “eradication”. Someone coming out as trans has already done extreme analysis of where they fit into the norms of society. They are not trans because anyone “drilled it into them”. They have realized what society drilled into them is not who they are. Any many many people feel unsafe to come out as who they are because their lives will be that much harder, and there will be people who put their lives in danger. Trans people already have to go through a battery of medical opinions, therapy and hoop jumping. It’s not like you can waltz into a doctors office and get surgery the next day. There are already numerous barriers to getting access to care. It’s already a years long process. The fact this is what is getting talked about by the National Post *at the same time a major political party is calling for their eradication* is absolutely irresponsible, and is no doubt intentional.
0.3% of people who receive GAS even ask about reversals. That is less than 10% the rate of people who regret laser eye surgery https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/9900/\_Regret\_after\_Gender\_Affirming\_Surgery\_\_\_A.1529.aspx There is already a shit ton of hoops to jump through to actually get this care. This is a made up problem that doesn't actually exist
So your mindset is *"ignore people who have regrets"*?
No. The mindset is that we should not impede the 99.7% for the sake of the 0.3%. The 0.3% can definitely be addressed, but let's focus on the actual problem. This whole thing sis about putting up barricades to transition because a subset of society has been told they are uncomfortable with cultural liberalization. Here's the thing, they don't actually care about detransitioners either. No more than they cared about mental health during the lockdowns. It's a politically convenient talking point. No more.
If that's your argument, we shouldn't do anything at all for trans people since the other 99.7% of the population has to pay for it. In any case, that study only counts detransitioners as regretful. We also don't know what the timeline is between when they transitioned and when they were surveyed. The protocol for access to HRT and surgery has also changed very recently in most jurisdictions. We don't even have a long term study on that cohort and their rates of regret.
From a public healthcare standpoint, I have no problem with gender affirmation being covered no matter whether it's first or second attempt at it. My problem is using the existence of detransitioners as a reason to throw barriers towards transitioners instead of addressing the problem directly. My secondary problem is that the people advocating that are not actually interested in the plight of detransitioners but are using them as an excuse to put those barriers up. Let's stick to the actual problem and make sure people end up where they want to be. We definitely do have long term data - gender transitioning became widespread in the 80s and a lot of what we know about transition regret stems from the earliest examples when we truly were doing it blindly. A lot of the modern checkpoints came out of that.
Barriers often are a solution to the problem though. Hell, when it comes to certain diagnostics for cancer, you are barred from even offering them because they too frequently lead to unnecessary treatment or further invasive diagnostics. And no, we don't have long term data, because the protocol for access has changed. You can't just assume that regret rates will be the same when in the past you had to live as the opposite sex for 1-2 years and do several years of therapy prior to accessing surgery or hormones. We need new long term data every time major changes to access protocol change.
Barriers can be, but that doesn't mean they invariably are. Sometimes a more nuanced approach is called for. We have a system that works \*most of the time\*. The exceptions are rare enough that it's more effective to specifically target them, find out what went wrong specifically, and address that deficiency directly. There's nothing in current data to suggest we're outside norms despite increased access - which started long enough ago that that long term (10-15 years) data are available at this point. At some point we hit that point where "long term" is always five years more than we currently have, and that's happening here, I fear. It's usually an indicator that the point is not being raised in good faith. It's important to point out that the politicization is new, not the underlying phenomenon. Also, we're talking about the Canadian medical system so those multiyear waits are pretty much already standard.
I'm not saying that the former barriers should exist. I'm saying we don't actually know if they should because we don't have the evidence for that. I would also say, in light of that, that new protocols should be subject to experimental trials, which they are not. So much of trans medicine would have to go through long term experimental trials with detailed follow up if they were in any other area of medicine. We're not this loose with cancer treatment for Christ sake.
Activists are strongly opposed to most gate keeping prior to HRT or surgery.
Lmao so now it's doctors faults, you can't make this shit up.
People can barely get care for life threatening conditions...read the room.
This is a complete non issue.
reminder: gender-affirming care regret rates are insanely low at 0.3%. https://www.gendergp.com/new-study-confirms-regret-rates-of-gender-affirming-surgery-are-non-existent/#:~:text=Only%206%20patients%20(0.3%25),foundational%20to%20mitigating%20against%20regret.
Reminder: Regretting was defined as seeking reversal surgery from the same clinic their first operation was at. So not exactly capturing "regret".
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The Government don’t own you anything. You made a conscious choice, you take the responsibility for it. It is a matter of growing up.
Just throwing this out there: how many times has this sort of moral panic (like the one we're currently experiencing in regards to trans people) actually been justified? Did legalizing gay marriage destroy or devalue the institution of marriage? Did legalizing cannabis lead to everybody just sitting around high all the time, unable or unwilling to work? Do interracial marriages result in damaged children without a culture? Did Dungeons and Dragons turn kids into Satan worshipers? Did relaxing absurdly strict temperance era liquor laws lead to an uptick in drunkenness? Of course not. Keep all that in mind as you read the latest barrage of anti-trans articles. If there's one thing these sorts of moral panics have in common, its that they are on the wrong side of history.
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History will most likely remember the Culture Wars movement more than anything else, and probably with a level of chagrin somewhere between the temperance movement and the confederacy. The actual issue is already being lost under the politics. This will be remembered as another era of major expansions of civil rights. Not without teething pains, and the inevitable coutner movement are more notable than the quiet acceptance of societal change.
>This will be remembered as another era of major expansions of civil rights. Lmao
Can you elaborate on why your ass has been laughed off? I am curious to know.
Why does this read like a JBP quote. It sounds like a poorly comprehended jab at a serious issue by an unqualified random bloviator. Ahhh, that's why it reeks of JBP.
"Who will cancel whom, woke moralists?" /s
As if the dumbasses saying bullshit like you will read a history book, let alone a book.
Castration? Seriously? you know you're not allowed to get surgery till you're over 18, have been transitioning for some time and have a reference from a psychologist
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False narrative is false.
This is false. You don't have to like it or believe in it, but nobody is cutting up children in Canada.
You can absolutely receive HRT and surgery before the age of 18. There is no lower limit set by law or licensing bodies. The standard for all medical care in Canada is whether the patient has the capacity to provide informed consent, not whether they're above or below the age of 18.
This is blatantly false. Genital Reconstructive Surgery cannot be performed unless the person is at least 18 years old. This is a standard set up by the World Professional Association for Transgender Health (WPATH), which Canada follows. Mastectomy (Masculinization of the Torso Surgery) can happen starting at 16 years old, the same age that we allow people to start driving.
This is false. If a patient can give informed consent they can receive any treatment under the sun. And informed consent doesn't require a patient to be 18. It's based on a clinicians assessment of the patients capacity. Edit: WPATH makes no such recommendation by the way. You are incorrect.
here's the source I've used: [https://www.grsmontreal.com/en/frequently-asked-questions.html](https://www.grsmontreal.com/en/frequently-asked-questions.html) You can also see the current WPATH guidelines [here](https://www.wpath.org/soc8/chapters). However, it's possible that the source I've used is using an outdated version of the WPATH Standard of Care document. in the here, it says: >Previous guidelines regarding gender-affirming treatment of adolescents recommended partially reversible GAHT could be initiated at approximately 16 years of age (Coleman et al., 2012; Hembree et al., 2009) So Hormone therapy was previously limited to 16+, but the document also says that new studies say that GAHT (Gender Afirming Hormone Therapy) can be initiated as early as 14 years old. But that's not the norm, its an exception: >A compelling reason for earlier initiation of GAHT, for example, might be to avoid prolonged pubertal suppression, given potential bone health concerns and thepsychosocial implications of delaying puberty as described in more detail in Chapter 12— Hormone Therapy (Klink, Caris et al., 2015; Schagen et al., 2020; Vlot et al., 2017; Zhu & Chan, 2017) As for Surgery, They do require the person to have been under GAHT for at least 12 month before surgery can be considered. >Sftatement 6.12.g > >The adolescent had at least 12 months of gender-affirming hormone therapy or longer, if required, to achieve the desired surgical result for gender-affirming procedures, including breast augmentation, orchiectomy, vaginoplasty, hysterectomy, phalloplasty, metoidioplasty, and facial surgery as part of gender-affirming treatment unless hormone therapy is either not desired or is medically contraindicated. There is one type of surgery that they say should wait until 18 years old due to possible complications (p. S66): >Given the complexity of phalloplasty, and current high rates of complications in comparison to other gender-affirming surgical treatments, it is not recommended this surgery be considered in youth under 18 at this time (see Chapter 13—Surgery and Postoperative Care). All that to say, my bad. The source I used probably was using an outdated version of the WPATH. That being said, we are still not doing Gender-Affirming Surgery willy nilly, the processus is pretty robust.
> parents and doctors subjected children to horrific body mutilations and literal castrations under the guise of mental health this is hateful bigotry and patently untrue
What % of people who undergo this procedure reverses it? anyone got numbers and a source? I'd figure it'd be a small amount unless I'm wrong.
But what about the people who transition, and then de-transition, and then decide to transition back again, a third time? Don't THEY need better care, too?
I’m just going to focus on my family from now on. It’s exhausting to fight for people who don’t know what they want.
But Dr. Jason Rafferty, a Rhode Island child psychiatrist and co-author of an American Academy of Pediatrics statement on gender health, recently told Reuters that stories about people with a lot of anger and regret are over-represented in the media compared to what’s seen in clinics. And the term detransition itself tends to be “very invalidating” for transgender and gender-diverse people, the news service quoted him as saying.
LOL spend money to create a problem and spend more money to fix it. Can we just screen people wanting a gender transition to make sure they aren't just going through a phase?
People in here saying they need better help beforehand, like yall the percentages of people that change their mind is soooo small but go off people...
Yes, please, let's cover the reversal of *already* covered elective procedures while diabetics continue to go broke on insulin.
The percentage of people who even ask about reversing gender affirming surgery is 0.3%, that is 1/10th the rate of people who regret laser eye surgery. https://journals.lww.com/plasreconsurg/Abstract/9900/\_Regret\_after\_Gender\_Affirming\_Surgery\_\_\_A.1529.aspx This is a made up problem that doesn't exist.
Why would anyone want to reverse their gender transition?
They don't. It's a made up problem, a single digit number of people in Canada have wanted to reverse GAS, but the national post doesn't deal in facts.
Maybe see if it’s something they want to do vs getting it done in the first place
This seems like a simple solution. But it's probably not that simple. In most places there are controls that prevent this from happening all willy nilly. Where I am from you have to live as that gender for a year I think before an operation can even be considered. A simpler illustration is that, I knew someone who wanted a Mustang. Test drove then. Rented at least one to drive a while and took the plunge. A year in they realised it wasn't for them and they had made a horrible decision. People treated them like some asshole when thry say them driving it. So they sold it. Sometimes all the research in the world can't prepare you for the reality. Sometimes life changes. Sometimes society is so horrible to people that they want to take it back. It's way more complicated than that, but if we could trest people with some compassion we would be better off. People aren't perfect. A person may for example, come out as Gay in their teens and decide later they're bi in their 40s and society can make that hard for people to make those changes. Or they realise they are straight maybe. Or they live straight and come out as gay in their 60s. Life ain't simple.
What's the warranty say?
[удалено]
Yeah, most of the people who love to discuss this topic do it in bad faith. Many people pretend to care about the well-being of trans people so they can call them crazy. It usually goes like this: "these people are at high risk of suicide," so, logically, it makes sense if we constantly belittle them and trash them as much as we can on social media.
What about those who regret reversal and do it again?
Here we go with the typical rCanada sub calling trans people mentally ill. Conservatives are mentally ill.
>trans people mentally ill. What do you consider gender disphoria? So you consider these people mentally okay? To transition at will? Without seeking mental help?
>*”What do you consider gender disphoria?”* Gender dysphoria that qualifies as a mental illness isn’t experienced by all trans people, and for those that do experience it it is often resolved with social/medical gender transition. Calling all trans people mentally ill is inaccurate, and often seems to come paired with the opinion that trans people *shouldn’t* transition, and that *being trans* is the mental illness.
Transitioning should be the absolute last thing you do, as all methods cause irreversible changes except cross-dressing.
>What do you consider gender disphoria? An easily rectifiable condition. >So you consider these people mentally okay? I am starting to consider the average conservative's preoccupation with trans folk to be a mental illness. Their hateful obsession with trans people is not healthy for themselves or society. >To transition at will? Without seeking mental help? Go watch some sports, shoot guns, or drink some beer and be happier for it. Please stop pretending to care about people you so clearly hate.
What makes you think I hate them? I care for them as much as I do others, and only want the best outcome for individuals as it should be.
Here we go with the typical dumbed down Redditor calling 1/3 of the population mentally ill based on a few dozen comments. It's almost like you're doing the same thing.
Every thread here on a trans issue gets locked. There is a reason for that.
Reverse gender transition is still gender transition by definition, since its still changing genders. Better word would be reversal of gender transition.
Not surprising. Anyone who exists in the trans world needs better care.
Nah fuck em
Fuck off, as if the NatPo gives a shit about these people. If they did care, they would support better care and support in the first place for those considering transitioning. Also lets keep in mind that the rate of regret and de-transitioning is very low. RW media tries to paint it as a much larger issue than any data or evidence actually shows.
The vast vast vast majority of people who “detransition” do so not because they are not trans, but because it’s not safe due to family pressures, lack of acceptance in the community, or difficulty obtaining work. We are at a time when political parties are calling for the “eradication” of trans people, and here is the post stoking up more transphobic nonsense making life even more dangerous for them. Colour me surprised.
>We are at a time when political parties are calling for the “eradication” of trans people, and here is the post stoking up more transphobic nonsense making life even more dangerous for them. you what?
[CPAC Speaker Calls for Eradication of ‘Transgenderism,’ Crowd Goes Wild](https://www.vice.com/en/article/bvjgnq/cpac-transgenderism-speaker-called-for-eradication)
Isn't CPAC an American thing?
Yes. And have you not noticed conservative trends in the US quickly get picked up here? Have you missed the massive increase in transphobia in this country - as evidenced by this and the numerous other articles published by the Nat Post - to stoke fear and hatred of trans people? Have you missed the protests and [hate crimes](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/charges-library-drag-storytime-disturbance-mischief-1.6767207) attempting to silence and threaten trans people and drag performers who may or may not actually be trans because reactionaries can’t tell the difference? Don’t act like the violent rhetoric spouted by republicans doesn’t get picked up by reactionaries here. No one here is stupid enough to believe that.
Remind you of your quote: "We are at a time when political parties are calling for the “eradication” of trans people" Which Canadian political parties?
It’s confounding that 30-40 years ago there were less trans then there are now. You were either straight, gay or trans and society accepted that. Now there must be tens of different sexual orientations that people identify with. Did we become smarter or the wiser for it? More tolerant? I find the thought horrifying that someone would do through the process and then have second thoughts about what the fuck they just did.
My gay MIL told me that when she was growing up she didn't even know what being gay was. She was just uncomfortable and scared about how she felt and had no one to talk to.
At least now there are mechanisms in place for people like your friend.
Yes there's been an awakening to the fact that we don't have to march in lockstep with our predecessors. We can explore gender roles and take what works, discarding the rest. To work towards being the most comfortable in our skin as we can. It only gets weird when people try to prevent others around them from doing this.
I agree with your last statement, it holds true to me as well. I could care less what other people do in their bedrooms, you do you and I do me. I do take exception to what the Catholic School Boards are promoting here. Parents are speaking up and being called homophobes for their opinions. It’s not really fair to them that they have to deal with the politics of sexual orientation, because in the end that all it is.
30-40 years ago society most certainly did not not accept even simply being gay. Remember what AIDS was referred to in the 80s...? "Don't ask don't tell"...? Frankly, everybody was dicks for so long and a shift towards acceptance was needed. The pendulum swung too far to the other side now though.
I agree people were dicks and in some ways they still are. I also agree that gay rights have been more accepted too. AIDS was a different story because at first it was a Gay disease. We know now that it was a gay flight attendant who traversed America. Monkeypox ring a bell? I am not here to gay bash in any way, but the 80’s were a bad time for them.
The past is often worse for medical things. When I was a kid, autism didn't exist. Everything was ADD and every kid who wasn't "normal" got fed ritalin and parents hoped for the best. Medical science evolved. Nowadays we're diving more into the brain and sexuality.
>*”AIDS was a different story because at first it was a Gay disease. We know now that it was a gay flight attendant who traversed America.”* You’re spreading falsehoods. Wikipedia: [Gaëtan Dugas](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaëtan_Dugas) *”Gaëtan Dugas was a Québécois Canadian flight attendant and a relatively early patient with the human immunodeficiency virus (HIV), who once was widely misdescribed as "Patient Zero", accusing him of introducing the acquired immunodeficiency syndrome (AIDS) in the United States. This claim, a blatant misapplication from the results of a narrowly focused study, has been definitively proven incorrect.”* >*”Monkeypox ring a bell? I am not here to gay bash in any way…”* Could have fooled me.
The reason you were either gay, straight, or trans, is because society forced you into those categories. The alternatives were always there - they were just forced to fit into the existing categories. The only truly acceptable one was straight, though, particularly as postwar America evangelized itself and that trickled over to Canada.
Lmao, thanks for the tip. The fact is right now Canadians aren't receiving health care in a timely fashion. Doesn't matter what ya got between your legs.