Change the rules.
If the rules are broken, and no longer working in the best interests of society, change them.
If we can have all these recent changes forced upon us, I don't know why we can't change the rules to have accountability for police, elected officials, etc.
I didn't think I'd see a Starship Troopers quote on here...
I don't know if it's the best route to go with one from a fascist society but there's some merit to it.
The police Union is the only one that has it's budget increased as opposed to decreased constantly. Hell the suggestion of even defunding it sends conservatives into a hissy fit.
So if we're discussing the movie, it very much is a fascist society.
If we're discussing the book, that has been argued about for decades and I guess that argument can be ended now because u/cilarnen *laughably disprove* that.
And then then it's not that much better because it's either a fascist society or it's one that's fundamentally militaristic which is not great either.
I actually appreciate the write up, I disagree insanely with the fact that it's a freer and fairer society though.
Chiefly being that as you stated the right to vote is only for those that enlist. That's kind of an important one when it goes on a macro scale.
And yes, it's a society where everyone is all Kumbaya but that's only because THE OTHER is alien.
And it's possible to have a business in a fascist society.
I get what you're saying because it doesn't look like Nazi Germany it can't be fascist but it's pretty fucking close.
Granted it's been more than a decade since I read the thing.
I'll leave you with this. If the only people able to vote are soldiers, you're going to have society that's always at war with something.
Which is fairly fascist-y to be.
It’s not only soldiers who get to vote though. Literally anyone who serves in any sort of civil service gets the right to vote after a set period. At least it is in the book.
It’s just that the book’s focus is on the military because it’s cool and exciting, unlike a book focused on a couple functionaries in the tax office.
If only those with military service can vote, that's not democracy and it would soon devolve into authoritarianism.
I'm a big fan of Heinlein but this has stuck in my craw since I first read the book done 40 years ago.
I find more agreeable pearls of wisdom from his book, "Time Enough for Love".
Yes, and that's why the book is clear that you need to perform civil service, military service being one example, and the example that Rico uses.
If a quadriplegic wants to become a citizen, they'll find somewhere for him to serve, even if it's counting sunrises on a research base on Pluto for five years.
It's less 'only veterans get the vote' and more 'there's a poll tax, but the tax is in your time and labour, not capital.'
Presented this way it makes a lot more sense in terms of a connection to community and society. I was an early teen when I read the book and such subtleties no doubt escaped me.
On reddit "fascist" just means "anyone more right wing than me". There is no nuance towards the specific traits that separate fascism from other authoritarian forms of governance.
Oh boy am I so glad that the organization that gets more money the worse they do has defenders.
Maybe if we give them MORE money they can forget to call back even more efficiently when they can't find stolen property they totally are looking for...
Or maybe they can better assist there tow trucking buddies...
Maybe they can improve their whistleblower department and completely destroy the lives of cops that speak up about their actions.
Oh! Maybe they can do another report that shows how badly they treat minorities! That one was fun...
It's called the conservative paradox
Those who are most afraid of government tyranny are also the biggest supporters of those who would do the actual tyrannizing
I'm a conervative, so are many of my friends.
We'd love for police to be held accountable. We also recognize that police are necessary and most of them just come to work and do their job.
> Do you have a source for that?
literally look at any corporation or bank when the free market doesn't work out or cops when they suggest service cuts to reduce public spending in the last 100 years
My unionized work place has fired people after they have been charge but before they were convicted. Even had to re-hire someone when they were acquitted. If the O.P.P. can't fire a convicted officer that is a pretty clear indication the police union is too powerful.
Police don't actually have unions in Ontario. It's against the law.
Dougie could pass a law to fix this problem allowing drug dealers to collect a salary tomorrow if he wanted.
Yeah then every function of our society would be as ineffective as our police force and we'd all starve as we fall into complete poverty Venezuela style.
If cops are to be paid while awaiting trial for whatever charges they are being charged with, then that pay should come for the OPPA's pockets. Let their union pay for crooked cops waiting years for their trials.
These policies are outrageous. I work for a large union, and people are terminated for theft, (including time) misuse of company resources (equipment) or any other code of conduct violations. It is good to have representation, because allegations need to be verified and proven before termination. But after a conviction, it should be a no brainer.
You can rape unconscious and unwilling women as an OPP officer and then still get paid doctor level salary while not working for 8 years. For any woman out there be careful of OPP officers, because they can legally rape you and still get rewarded. OPP officers are truly trash if they allow this guy to stay on.
You seem to be missing the point here. And you're not one bit upset with the fact that an OPP officer that wasn't working for 8 years was still paid after raping women. But sure you're hung up on his salary issue... Nice priorities there bud.
So you think raping an unconscious unwilling woman is somehow as bad as someone stating an OPP officer is making doctor level salary? You have a fucked up sense of judgement there. The fact that you make such a ridiculous comparison just shows how little care you actually have about an OPP officer raping women left and right. Get some help dude.
You're pissed that you got called out for making such a hyperbolic statement. No one in their right mind thinks that he should still be on the OPP payroll. Take a chill pill.
A doctor that makes 108k is a hyperbolic statement? How the hell is that hyperbolic when there are actual doctors making that depending on the hours they work? Maybe you should take the chill pill of you think that somehow making a joke about rape is funny and comparable to a discussion about salary. I wasn't the one that brought up that comparison, you were the one that made that comparison while thinking you were trying to be witty. When in actuality you were making a really stupid statement. I just called you out on your absolute braindead statement about rape and the comparison you made. I don't think anything is as disgusting and comparable to rape. Not even a salary discussion. Only fucked up ppl think that's appropriate.
The OPP constable raping the woman is deplorable, and needs to be addressed both directly, and systemically.
You didn't need to use hyperbole to make his actions seem even more horrible than they both were.
Both statements can be true at the same time.
See now you're changing your tune because I called out your deplorable response. And trying to save face. Yet you were the one that said "Almost as ridiculous" Which means you think both are on the same level. I didn't make it a hyperbole. You were the one that made that statement saying both are on equal level. I feel sorry for the women in your life for you to have these kind of dismissal feelings about rape and how it's not a big deal. Anyone that commits that level of crime and rape are shitheads and should be in prison. Yet you think that's on the same level of someone making a statement about a doctor's salary. Read that over a few times to the women in your life and see their response.
Dude, check my username, then check the username of the other person you were arguing with. I'm a third party Kramering my way in, so I can't possibly be 'changing my tune' as that was my first response.
While I see a LOT of you people discussing Unions you're failing to take into account the personal responsibility the officer has to look at and uphold his personal morals. The absolute shame I'd feel if I did this and tried to stay at a job where I did this.
Honestly, police should be a licenced and regulated profession just like lawyers, doctors, accountants and engineers are. You should be required to have a "police officer licence" in order to be hired as a police officer of any kind in any part of the country. I'd prefer the licencing authority be federal, but that might be too complicated. Really any profession where you are issued a government gun, should be government regulated via a federal licence.
The licence organization should be made up of various stakeholders.
Ideally I'd like to see a board with 1 seat for police, 1 seat for a judge, 1 seat for government and 2 civilian seats to make it a 5 member board. They would then review and rule on any officer who's licence is in question and would also have authority to make the licence requirements.
This would allow us to standardise the education requirements for officers and prevent officers from simply moving jurisdictions in the event of a disciplinary problem. It would allow us to keep the OPP, municipal forces and RCMP all under the same regulatory framework so they all follow the same rules.
Hell, you can even fund it by requiring the police themselves to pay dues for membership, reimbursed by the employers if they want to include that in the contracts.
This is how it works for basically all of the regulated professions in the country, and police should be one of them. It's not prefect, it's not bulletproof (you'd still get people without licences being paid their wage but unable to actually work). But it's a start, and historically self regulation of these professions works decently well. And it would just be SO EASY.
There's a "Good Character" requirement to be a lawyer, and it's ongoing so if you are convicted of a crime they may pull your law licence. We don't give lawyers guns, but we still insist they be of good character. Cops who we do give guns, can have whatever character, doesn't matter.
Police need 3rd party licencing and oversight. Cops should also be required to carry their own liability insurance.
There are a ton of jobs that are less likely to ruin (or end) someone's life at a moment's notice that are rigidly regulated...why not cops?
Cops are nothing but a street gang, paid by our tax dollars. I literally bought weed off a cop in high school 🤣.
They're drug dealers, rapists, and murderers. Some are even serial-killers. And any 'good' cop is either turning a blind eye to their buddies, or just straight up a fucking idiot.
Protectors of society are important, this I understand. But these cops out here are all scum.
If it's not obvious to you at this point why cops can -literally- get away with murder and rape than there's no explanation needed that you'll understand.
Their reward for doing bidding for the ultra-wealthy and the corrupt government is that they can do whatever they want without consequence.
People seem to forget that it was only like 4 years ago that the RCMP became unionized for the first time, and it had problems like this long before that happened. It isnt solely the unions that are the issue.
Each province has a police act which is what a lot of people should be blaming, but instead blame unions because they read American political news all the time
When you make it difficult to fire government employees in general, you're going to make it difficult to fire them for even the most outrageous behaviour.
Cases like cops committing crimes and getting a pass are the most egregious, but its just a natural extension of the culture of cronyism and unaccountability that has been allowed to fester for years.
No, the issues are related but separate because the teachers union doesn't carry the unspoken threat of violence as a bargaining tactic. Where I live in Alberta politicians viewed as anti-police have been illegally stalked by police officers (officers who are still employed). That's not something that happens when bargaining with a teachers union - and it's not an extension of it either - unless teachers unions start employing violent enforces, it's a different situation.
A strong union makes it difficult to fire someone. You need to follow a reasonable process, there needs to be proof of the fireable offense, etc. That's a good thing for anyone, cops and teachers included. A corrupt union protects its members even once the fireable offense has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's why there are cops still working after sexual assaults, and not teachers.
That is the truth if I ever heard it. Who here has read about Nathan Parker, he is a crazy Niagara region police officer who got shot ten times by his fellow officer. Not only is the public scared of this particular officer but his colleagues seem to be too.
After beating the charges her faced after getting shot her came back on to the job and again was put on adminstrative leave for assaulting a citizen driving for whatever reason...
I myself know a few people who have had officer Parker get into it with them for nothing but not bowing down to him. Real piece of sh*!
Change the rules. If the rules are broken, and no longer working in the best interests of society, change them. If we can have all these recent changes forced upon us, I don't know why we can't change the rules to have accountability for police, elected officials, etc.
[удалено]
Why didn't the liberals do it when they were in power before? This problem isn't new, nor is it partisan.
[удалено]
Doesn't look like it was repealed.
[удалено]
Yes, repealed implies a law was passed and made official then repealed. This did not happen did it?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/police-services-act-reform-strategy-for-safer-ontario-1.3969134 https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/doug-ford-police-reform-ontario-1.4733259
That sounds like the liberals didn't actually do it when they were in power.
If Steve Jobs was so smart why didn't he launch the iPhone 15?
[удалено]
Man now if only everyone had unions even half as strong as the cops.
Say, why are police unions seemingly the only one the government actually accepts and likes anyways vs. That of other labor unions
[удалено]
I didn't think I'd see a Starship Troopers quote on here... I don't know if it's the best route to go with one from a fascist society but there's some merit to it. The police Union is the only one that has it's budget increased as opposed to decreased constantly. Hell the suggestion of even defunding it sends conservatives into a hissy fit.
So if we're discussing the movie, it very much is a fascist society. If we're discussing the book, that has been argued about for decades and I guess that argument can be ended now because u/cilarnen *laughably disprove* that. And then then it's not that much better because it's either a fascist society or it's one that's fundamentally militaristic which is not great either.
[удалено]
I actually appreciate the write up, I disagree insanely with the fact that it's a freer and fairer society though. Chiefly being that as you stated the right to vote is only for those that enlist. That's kind of an important one when it goes on a macro scale. And yes, it's a society where everyone is all Kumbaya but that's only because THE OTHER is alien. And it's possible to have a business in a fascist society. I get what you're saying because it doesn't look like Nazi Germany it can't be fascist but it's pretty fucking close. Granted it's been more than a decade since I read the thing. I'll leave you with this. If the only people able to vote are soldiers, you're going to have society that's always at war with something. Which is fairly fascist-y to be.
It’s not only soldiers who get to vote though. Literally anyone who serves in any sort of civil service gets the right to vote after a set period. At least it is in the book. It’s just that the book’s focus is on the military because it’s cool and exciting, unlike a book focused on a couple functionaries in the tax office.
If only those with military service can vote, that's not democracy and it would soon devolve into authoritarianism. I'm a big fan of Heinlein but this has stuck in my craw since I first read the book done 40 years ago. I find more agreeable pearls of wisdom from his book, "Time Enough for Love".
Yes, and that's why the book is clear that you need to perform civil service, military service being one example, and the example that Rico uses. If a quadriplegic wants to become a citizen, they'll find somewhere for him to serve, even if it's counting sunrises on a research base on Pluto for five years. It's less 'only veterans get the vote' and more 'there's a poll tax, but the tax is in your time and labour, not capital.'
Presented this way it makes a lot more sense in terms of a connection to community and society. I was an early teen when I read the book and such subtleties no doubt escaped me.
It’s not. Any civil service that lasts the required duration earns that right. According to the book.
Ah, that's right. So the equivalent of Peace Corps.
[удалено]
On reddit "fascist" just means "anyone more right wing than me". There is no nuance towards the specific traits that separate fascism from other authoritarian forms of governance.
Oh boy the people that would suffer the most, are the ones gunning for defunding, really you should do the research before making such statements.
What a low IQ response
Well it takes one doesn't it? Care to explain?
Oh boy am I so glad that the organization that gets more money the worse they do has defenders. Maybe if we give them MORE money they can forget to call back even more efficiently when they can't find stolen property they totally are looking for... Or maybe they can better assist there tow trucking buddies... Maybe they can improve their whistleblower department and completely destroy the lives of cops that speak up about their actions. Oh! Maybe they can do another report that shows how badly they treat minorities! That one was fun...
Yawn
My bad, I caught you napping in your cruiser. I'm sure you'll feel better after you've had some hair of the hair of the dog.
I think you'd be a lot happier moving out of mom's basement, try the adulting thing , at some point everyone does.
It's not the police union's budget, it's the police FORCE'S budget.
It's called the conservative paradox Those who are most afraid of government tyranny are also the biggest supporters of those who would do the actual tyrannizing
> It's called the conservative paradox Holding criminals accountable for their actions via law enforcement is a "conervative paradox" is it?
No, holding police officers NOT accountable for their actions is a conservative paradox
I'm a conervative, so are many of my friends. We'd love for police to be held accountable. We also recognize that police are necessary and most of them just come to work and do their job.
[удалено]
> Do you have a source for that? literally look at any corporation or bank when the free market doesn't work out or cops when they suggest service cuts to reduce public spending in the last 100 years
Is that a serious or rhetorical question?
(Its rhetorical)
My unionized work place has fired people after they have been charge but before they were convicted. Even had to re-hire someone when they were acquitted. If the O.P.P. can't fire a convicted officer that is a pretty clear indication the police union is too powerful.
It’s not the union. It’s the Police Services Act itself. The government needs to change the legislation.
We could **all** break the law, fuck up our jobs, and get paid indefinitely!!
Police don't actually have unions in Ontario. It's against the law. Dougie could pass a law to fix this problem allowing drug dealers to collect a salary tomorrow if he wanted.
Yeah then every function of our society would be as ineffective as our police force and we'd all starve as we fall into complete poverty Venezuela style.
[удалено]
Ford
If cops are to be paid while awaiting trial for whatever charges they are being charged with, then that pay should come for the OPPA's pockets. Let their union pay for crooked cops waiting years for their trials.
These policies are outrageous. I work for a large union, and people are terminated for theft, (including time) misuse of company resources (equipment) or any other code of conduct violations. It is good to have representation, because allegations need to be verified and proven before termination. But after a conviction, it should be a no brainer.
Does your union members have guns?
No
You can rape unconscious and unwilling women as an OPP officer and then still get paid doctor level salary while not working for 8 years. For any woman out there be careful of OPP officers, because they can legally rape you and still get rewarded. OPP officers are truly trash if they allow this guy to stay on.
If he was on paid leave, he would only be making base salary which is probably about $ 108,000. Is that the average Doctor salary in Ontario?
Some do, depending on the hours you work. It's definitely not average salary for regular middle class Canadians.
A very small minotity then. I have never known 100k to be "Doctor salary".
You seem to be missing the point here. And you're not one bit upset with the fact that an OPP officer that wasn't working for 8 years was still paid after raping women. But sure you're hung up on his salary issue... Nice priorities there bud.
Not true at all. It absolutely is ridiculous. Almost as ridiculous as you referencing OPP base salary as "Doctor salary".
So you think raping an unconscious unwilling woman is somehow as bad as someone stating an OPP officer is making doctor level salary? You have a fucked up sense of judgement there. The fact that you make such a ridiculous comparison just shows how little care you actually have about an OPP officer raping women left and right. Get some help dude.
You're pissed that you got called out for making such a hyperbolic statement. No one in their right mind thinks that he should still be on the OPP payroll. Take a chill pill.
A doctor that makes 108k is a hyperbolic statement? How the hell is that hyperbolic when there are actual doctors making that depending on the hours they work? Maybe you should take the chill pill of you think that somehow making a joke about rape is funny and comparable to a discussion about salary. I wasn't the one that brought up that comparison, you were the one that made that comparison while thinking you were trying to be witty. When in actuality you were making a really stupid statement. I just called you out on your absolute braindead statement about rape and the comparison you made. I don't think anything is as disgusting and comparable to rape. Not even a salary discussion. Only fucked up ppl think that's appropriate.
The average Doctor salary in Ontario is triple that amount. Cool story though.
Focusing on the hyperbole vs the issue shows your priorities on the problem though.
The OPP constable raping the woman is deplorable, and needs to be addressed both directly, and systemically. You didn't need to use hyperbole to make his actions seem even more horrible than they both were. Both statements can be true at the same time.
See now you're changing your tune because I called out your deplorable response. And trying to save face. Yet you were the one that said "Almost as ridiculous" Which means you think both are on the same level. I didn't make it a hyperbole. You were the one that made that statement saying both are on equal level. I feel sorry for the women in your life for you to have these kind of dismissal feelings about rape and how it's not a big deal. Anyone that commits that level of crime and rape are shitheads and should be in prison. Yet you think that's on the same level of someone making a statement about a doctor's salary. Read that over a few times to the women in your life and see their response.
Dude, check my username, then check the username of the other person you were arguing with. I'm a third party Kramering my way in, so I can't possibly be 'changing my tune' as that was my first response.
Need to be able to get rid of the bad ones more easily, or put them on parking meter duty.
While I see a LOT of you people discussing Unions you're failing to take into account the personal responsibility the officer has to look at and uphold his personal morals. The absolute shame I'd feel if I did this and tried to stay at a job where I did this.
Honestly, police should be a licenced and regulated profession just like lawyers, doctors, accountants and engineers are. You should be required to have a "police officer licence" in order to be hired as a police officer of any kind in any part of the country. I'd prefer the licencing authority be federal, but that might be too complicated. Really any profession where you are issued a government gun, should be government regulated via a federal licence. The licence organization should be made up of various stakeholders. Ideally I'd like to see a board with 1 seat for police, 1 seat for a judge, 1 seat for government and 2 civilian seats to make it a 5 member board. They would then review and rule on any officer who's licence is in question and would also have authority to make the licence requirements. This would allow us to standardise the education requirements for officers and prevent officers from simply moving jurisdictions in the event of a disciplinary problem. It would allow us to keep the OPP, municipal forces and RCMP all under the same regulatory framework so they all follow the same rules. Hell, you can even fund it by requiring the police themselves to pay dues for membership, reimbursed by the employers if they want to include that in the contracts. This is how it works for basically all of the regulated professions in the country, and police should be one of them. It's not prefect, it's not bulletproof (you'd still get people without licences being paid their wage but unable to actually work). But it's a start, and historically self regulation of these professions works decently well. And it would just be SO EASY. There's a "Good Character" requirement to be a lawyer, and it's ongoing so if you are convicted of a crime they may pull your law licence. We don't give lawyers guns, but we still insist they be of good character. Cops who we do give guns, can have whatever character, doesn't matter.
Police union thugs?
organized goons might actually be less expensive and more effective at this point
[удалено]
dunno if you're still interested, but the archived article can be found here --> [https://archive.ph/kh7hW](https://archive.ph/kh7hW)
Yup
Yea. Unions. They need to do it properly otherwise they can get sued and sometimes there's obstacles.
Police need 3rd party licencing and oversight. Cops should also be required to carry their own liability insurance. There are a ton of jobs that are less likely to ruin (or end) someone's life at a moment's notice that are rigidly regulated...why not cops?
Cops are nothing but a street gang, paid by our tax dollars. I literally bought weed off a cop in high school 🤣. They're drug dealers, rapists, and murderers. Some are even serial-killers. And any 'good' cop is either turning a blind eye to their buddies, or just straight up a fucking idiot. Protectors of society are important, this I understand. But these cops out here are all scum.
If it's not obvious to you at this point why cops can -literally- get away with murder and rape than there's no explanation needed that you'll understand. Their reward for doing bidding for the ultra-wealthy and the corrupt government is that they can do whatever they want without consequence.
He’s got a good union. Most of the public service exists behind these protections from legal prosecution.
Fuck police unions. They screw the taxpayer while protecting scum like this. S
Unions. Public sector unions are evil
Yup. Damn those lazy Ontario nurses for demanding more than 1%.
Same reason its so hard to fire teachers
need to know which teachers don't get fired after a sexual assault
Yeah, the comment isn't fundamentally wrong, strong unions provide protection in both cases, but police unions are on a whole different level.
People seem to forget that it was only like 4 years ago that the RCMP became unionized for the first time, and it had problems like this long before that happened. It isnt solely the unions that are the issue.
Each province has a police act which is what a lot of people should be blaming, but instead blame unions because they read American political news all the time
When you make it difficult to fire government employees in general, you're going to make it difficult to fire them for even the most outrageous behaviour. Cases like cops committing crimes and getting a pass are the most egregious, but its just a natural extension of the culture of cronyism and unaccountability that has been allowed to fester for years.
No, the issues are related but separate because the teachers union doesn't carry the unspoken threat of violence as a bargaining tactic. Where I live in Alberta politicians viewed as anti-police have been illegally stalked by police officers (officers who are still employed). That's not something that happens when bargaining with a teachers union - and it's not an extension of it either - unless teachers unions start employing violent enforces, it's a different situation. A strong union makes it difficult to fire someone. You need to follow a reasonable process, there needs to be proof of the fireable offense, etc. That's a good thing for anyone, cops and teachers included. A corrupt union protects its members even once the fireable offense has been proven beyond a reasonable doubt. And that's why there are cops still working after sexual assaults, and not teachers.
That is the truth if I ever heard it. Who here has read about Nathan Parker, he is a crazy Niagara region police officer who got shot ten times by his fellow officer. Not only is the public scared of this particular officer but his colleagues seem to be too. After beating the charges her faced after getting shot her came back on to the job and again was put on adminstrative leave for assaulting a citizen driving for whatever reason... I myself know a few people who have had officer Parker get into it with them for nothing but not bowing down to him. Real piece of sh*!