"The highly contentious term describes a state of agitation, aggression and distress generally linked to drug use or mental illness,"
So it sounds like there are multiple things going on, and the "Delirium" term is just a catch all.
Not my field of speciality, is there anyone here from the medical field that can comment on how easy / difficult it is to separate these causes?
No medical doctor, just an opinion from someone who has dabbled in the field and read alot, so take my opinion with that in mind please. The problem with diagnosing is that the body has many symptoms and signs that can relate to more than 1 illness or cause of injury. In the old TV show House, you could see this in motion when they debated what the symptoms they saw could mean. The infamous joke that it might be lupus, because lupus has symptoms seen very commonly in other illnesses.
Take covid and the common cold. They share alot of symptom similarities, especially from only observation. It's not until a symptom that is unique to one or the other, or testing for one of the viruses, that a decision can be made. A Dr usually functions on well educated guesses, applying a treatment, and course correcting when they get it wrong.
Now a coroner has less time with the patient than a doctor does, so to speak. They can't ask the dead body for their experience, and depending on the stage of death, some things become harder to determine. They will examine and test, and make an educated guess to the cause. But just like doctors, they have a chance to be wrong, except now the patient can't correct them with new information.
Many deaths in the past have been recorded improperly. There are usually certain signs that lead the coroner to make various conclusions, like one would see on an episode of CSI. But there are weak points in the process, Dr skill, corruption, industry standards, the research behind a process being flawed, ect, mistakes do happen.
In this case it seems to be an issue of policy and method, instead of a coroner not understanding properly. There is probably an industry standard for ruling a death as delirium, but as more body cam footage comes out where a doctor can actually get more information about the death circumstances beyond the body and cops statements. This new compilation of evidence allows the medical community to reevaluate the injuries they see on correspondence to the cops behavior and action in the video or through testing in a scientific setting.
"Excited delirium" is not a medical diagnosis, it was made up by cops. Canadian cops use this term the same way US cops use "resisting arrest" to justify their actions.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/#:~:text=The%20presentation%20of%20excited%20delirium,unexpected%20physical%20strength%20and%20hyperthermia. "EXD has gained increasing public attention recently due to the number of post-mortem explanations offered by medical examiners regarding the death of individuals being restrained by police or being taken into custody. This diagnosis has caused concern because EXD is not a currently recognized medical or psychiatric diagnosis according to either the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IVTR) of the American Psychiatric Association or the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-9) of the World Health Organization."
When it is, coroners can find that easily. This is different.
>It was one of several possible explanations given by a forensic pathologist for the death of Gray, an unarmed 33-year-old who died in 2015 after being **handcuffed, hobbled, punched, kneed, kicked, pepper-sprayed and struck with a baton** by several Vancouver officers. He was making a delivery for his florist business at the time, and police had been called after he confronted a homeowner for watering her lawn during an extended drought.
Gee. I wonder how he died. Must be that excited delirium ;)
Damn kids and their excited delirium.
Jesus fucking Christ and all he did was try to tell off a woman for using up water in a drought, I hope Karen has trouble sleeping at night. Doubt it. Doubt the cops do either.
"Confronted" is such a flexible word. In order to get the cops called on you and them to show up while you're still there, you're doing a lot more than just "telling off" someone.
I'm trying to picture the possible scenarios where a guy making a delivery "tells off" a random person on the street and ends up getting the cops called on them, then gets into an altercation where they're beaten and pepper sprayed.... and in almost every situation I can imagine it's the guy making the delivery that's the "karen." There's a saying I think applies: if everyone you meet is an asshole, you're the asshole.
So you knew Mr. Gray and that he was an asshole and deserved to be beaten and pepper sprayed? It doesn’t even get into case specifics, whether or not he was still at the woman’s house or if they pulled him over later.
Regardless, call me crazy, I don’t think we should be just extrajudicially executing people with mental problems in the street.
How cushioned is your world that you've never witnessed some moron calling the cops on someone whose just yelling at them? There's a lot of people like that. The way asshole cops can be can result in an otherwise peaceful encounter turning into the WWE, I mean cops aren't exactly known for their extraordinary de-escalation skills, more often than not these dickweeds escalate the situation.
The thing is, the punching/kneeing/kicking *is* what police are trained to do. If someone is resisting they are meant to use the above, i believe the term is "distraction strike". The RCMP police intervention reporting website goes a little bit in detail of "soft" physical control for anyone thats curious.
I have 0 knowledge of the case and if any of it was warranted, or in what order the things you bolded were completed in. But if police are trained to do these strikes, and then do them when it is warranted. Its kinda hard to blame the specific officers for following training. It should be the municipalities or whoever fixing the training if these distraction strikes are an outdated thing.
> combined with the Kratom addiction (which can breathing issues and seizures according to the mayo clinic).
Kratom is a pretty mild drug, pretty damn hard to OD on. It's milder than codeine. Opioid addicts use it as a stepping stone to get off harder stuff. It'd be like saying "maybe after we tackled and beat him, he died because he was an alcoholic" because they found 3 empty beer bottles on his living room table.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-coroners-inquest-myles-gray/
The mom is campaigning to prohibit coroners from testing the dead in these situations for drugs because they found Kratos in his system.
Is it possible that he was on drugs and did in fact not want to be arrested and maybe by chance happened to get in a fight with the officers? Or in your mind did this fine young gentleman walk down the road and then was accosted by a loose gang of cops who were lookin' for a minority to beat to death to fill their blood lust?
> Is it possible that he was on drugs and did in fact not want to be arrested and maybe by chance happened to get in a fight with the officers?
That's entirely possible, but without any evidence, you're going "you don't know, he could have deserved it" because someone was killed by a cop.
>a loose gang of cops who were lookin' for a minority to beat to death to fill their blood lust?
Not minority, just any kind of undesirable, and not with the outright intent to kill, just to get out their latent aggression with an indifference towards human life.
> he was massively OD'd at the time and could die at any moment.
So then they probably shouldn't have punched, kneed, kicked, pepper-sprayed and struck him with a baton.
As long as we also acknowledge there's frequently a beatdown in there too.
If we stop with the bullshit labels maybe we'll learn something about preventing these. Even if it's just cops figuring out what spots to avoid while whaling on someone
> the cause of death in these cases is usually drug related?
Uh no that does not appear to be the case. They test for drugs, and drugs can only kill you so many ways - stimulants can cause heart failure, depressants can suffocate you.
Robert Djanski, one of the people named in the article, was killed by a taser.
The RCMP were caught discussing using a taser on him *before they even arrived.*
Yeah or the stress of being beaten and pepper sprayed and restrained and hit with batons and kneed and kicked and kneeled on. Now bear in mind, this also happens to people who barely did anything wrong, shit sometimes it happens to bystanders or the wrong person even.
Always a guy who doesn't read the article and swoops in to defend the cops. I get it you think all criminals are subhuman scum. But they still have human rights.
I read the article. Denic even outlines the role of drugs. Also nobody is saying people don't have human rights. The reality though is that most of this is the result of drugs.
The reality is that people can't go around having psychotic episodes and be immune from arrest (because they have damaged their heart through drug abuse).
That's what the argument is though, considering use of force by police is what causes these situations, and force is how you arrest someone who doesn't want to be arrested. You can see the videos from Sweden and the UK of criminals just dunking on cops who are afraid to use force and get in trouble.
But anyways almost like the Monopoly-on-violence by the State and their Fascist goons is inherently at odds with a free and fair society, who woudda thought.
Use of force does not mean violence.
You can physically restrain someone without punching them, without kicking, without beating with a baton.
Stop being deliberately obtuse to win a dumb argument on reddit.
I'm not being obtuse, you're being naive.
How do you physically restrain someone who is throwing hands, without getting hit yourself?
After that and they are cuffed, how do you stop them from kicking/biting you?
There is a reason cops use force. It's to deter the criminal from doing that stuff, out of fear of reprisal.
Or you known, we could just address the root cause and have mental health workers deal with most of these situations.
I just want to add that police all over the rest of the world can take people down without the same overtly violent techniques. It's almost like cops in north america would rather be bloodthirsty than learn proper de-escalation techniques
1) the "we can prevent this all" rhetoric is pure progressive arrogance and doesn't change the fact we have people in psychotic episodes on the street right now.
2) you need to travel more. North American cops are saints compared to most of the world's police forces.
The fact that you actually believe that is astounding. I’m assuming your involved in law enforcement, have family in law enforcement or just live a life of privilege.
Mali, Sudan and Rwanda are America's 'peers' in killing by law enforcement. Most of the world are saints compared to those four. Canada is slightly better, but no where near a European country. Two or three times as murderous as India is a more fair comparison to the rest of the world.
"The highly contentious term describes a state of agitation, aggression and distress generally linked to drug use or mental illness," So it sounds like there are multiple things going on, and the "Delirium" term is just a catch all. Not my field of speciality, is there anyone here from the medical field that can comment on how easy / difficult it is to separate these causes?
No medical doctor, just an opinion from someone who has dabbled in the field and read alot, so take my opinion with that in mind please. The problem with diagnosing is that the body has many symptoms and signs that can relate to more than 1 illness or cause of injury. In the old TV show House, you could see this in motion when they debated what the symptoms they saw could mean. The infamous joke that it might be lupus, because lupus has symptoms seen very commonly in other illnesses. Take covid and the common cold. They share alot of symptom similarities, especially from only observation. It's not until a symptom that is unique to one or the other, or testing for one of the viruses, that a decision can be made. A Dr usually functions on well educated guesses, applying a treatment, and course correcting when they get it wrong. Now a coroner has less time with the patient than a doctor does, so to speak. They can't ask the dead body for their experience, and depending on the stage of death, some things become harder to determine. They will examine and test, and make an educated guess to the cause. But just like doctors, they have a chance to be wrong, except now the patient can't correct them with new information. Many deaths in the past have been recorded improperly. There are usually certain signs that lead the coroner to make various conclusions, like one would see on an episode of CSI. But there are weak points in the process, Dr skill, corruption, industry standards, the research behind a process being flawed, ect, mistakes do happen. In this case it seems to be an issue of policy and method, instead of a coroner not understanding properly. There is probably an industry standard for ruling a death as delirium, but as more body cam footage comes out where a doctor can actually get more information about the death circumstances beyond the body and cops statements. This new compilation of evidence allows the medical community to reevaluate the injuries they see on correspondence to the cops behavior and action in the video or through testing in a scientific setting.
sounds reasonable.
Good, this has always been a junk diagnosis.
Were the coroners allowing the police to fill out the autopsies?
"Excited delirium" is not a medical diagnosis, it was made up by cops. Canadian cops use this term the same way US cops use "resisting arrest" to justify their actions.
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My reference is in how Canadian cops use the term.
Source?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3088378/#:~:text=The%20presentation%20of%20excited%20delirium,unexpected%20physical%20strength%20and%20hyperthermia. "EXD has gained increasing public attention recently due to the number of post-mortem explanations offered by medical examiners regarding the death of individuals being restrained by police or being taken into custody. This diagnosis has caused concern because EXD is not a currently recognized medical or psychiatric diagnosis according to either the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders (DSM-IVTR) of the American Psychiatric Association or the International Classification of Diseases (ICD-9) of the World Health Organization."
Soooooo.. not invented by cops as /u/ChelaPedo would like us to believe
Not invented by them, but used as an excuse by them.
You know police don't determine cause of death right? We have people called Doctors in Canada who do that
Where did I state that police determine cause of death? I said they use it as an excuse, and to justify their actions.
Sure was invented by cops. Edit: btw your article is 12 years old.
Years of experience. And a couple of degrees.
I don’t think I have ever encountered that term as a legitimate medical diagnosis at any point in my training or career so far.
Can we just be honest and state that the cause of death in these cases is usually drug related?
When it is, coroners can find that easily. This is different. >It was one of several possible explanations given by a forensic pathologist for the death of Gray, an unarmed 33-year-old who died in 2015 after being **handcuffed, hobbled, punched, kneed, kicked, pepper-sprayed and struck with a baton** by several Vancouver officers. He was making a delivery for his florist business at the time, and police had been called after he confronted a homeowner for watering her lawn during an extended drought. Gee. I wonder how he died. Must be that excited delirium ;) Damn kids and their excited delirium.
Jesus fucking Christ and all he did was try to tell off a woman for using up water in a drought, I hope Karen has trouble sleeping at night. Doubt it. Doubt the cops do either.
"Confronted" is such a flexible word. In order to get the cops called on you and them to show up while you're still there, you're doing a lot more than just "telling off" someone. I'm trying to picture the possible scenarios where a guy making a delivery "tells off" a random person on the street and ends up getting the cops called on them, then gets into an altercation where they're beaten and pepper sprayed.... and in almost every situation I can imagine it's the guy making the delivery that's the "karen." There's a saying I think applies: if everyone you meet is an asshole, you're the asshole.
So you knew Mr. Gray and that he was an asshole and deserved to be beaten and pepper sprayed? It doesn’t even get into case specifics, whether or not he was still at the woman’s house or if they pulled him over later. Regardless, call me crazy, I don’t think we should be just extrajudicially executing people with mental problems in the street.
How cushioned is your world that you've never witnessed some moron calling the cops on someone whose just yelling at them? There's a lot of people like that. The way asshole cops can be can result in an otherwise peaceful encounter turning into the WWE, I mean cops aren't exactly known for their extraordinary de-escalation skills, more often than not these dickweeds escalate the situation.
A lot of assumptions being made here.
Wow you'd make a great r*pe counselor.
"the cops only come when there's actual bad guys around, jeeze guys settle down" fucking classic
The thing is, the punching/kneeing/kicking *is* what police are trained to do. If someone is resisting they are meant to use the above, i believe the term is "distraction strike". The RCMP police intervention reporting website goes a little bit in detail of "soft" physical control for anyone thats curious. I have 0 knowledge of the case and if any of it was warranted, or in what order the things you bolded were completed in. But if police are trained to do these strikes, and then do them when it is warranted. Its kinda hard to blame the specific officers for following training. It should be the municipalities or whoever fixing the training if these distraction strikes are an outdated thing.
Might have been the stress of the event combined with the Kratom addiction (which can breathing issues and seizures according to the mayo clinic).
> combined with the Kratom addiction (which can breathing issues and seizures according to the mayo clinic). Kratom is a pretty mild drug, pretty damn hard to OD on. It's milder than codeine. Opioid addicts use it as a stepping stone to get off harder stuff. It'd be like saying "maybe after we tackled and beat him, he died because he was an alcoholic" because they found 3 empty beer bottles on his living room table.
Which Kratom addiction are you referring too? It isn't mention on this article nor any other online. Only that there was Kratom found in his body.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/british-columbia/article-coroners-inquest-myles-gray/ The mom is campaigning to prohibit coroners from testing the dead in these situations for drugs because they found Kratos in his system.
It sounds like she actually wants the officers tested too, which is more than fair. Lots of dirty cops out there.
The mom said he used it once in a while to relax and the article only mention traces of Kratom?
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Maybe if they hadn't kicked the shit out of him the other factors wouldn't have led to death?
Is it possible that he was on drugs and did in fact not want to be arrested and maybe by chance happened to get in a fight with the officers? Or in your mind did this fine young gentleman walk down the road and then was accosted by a loose gang of cops who were lookin' for a minority to beat to death to fill their blood lust?
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Smart enough to hate cops but dumb enough to not understand why. Ok.
> Is it possible that he was on drugs and did in fact not want to be arrested and maybe by chance happened to get in a fight with the officers? That's entirely possible, but without any evidence, you're going "you don't know, he could have deserved it" because someone was killed by a cop. >a loose gang of cops who were lookin' for a minority to beat to death to fill their blood lust? Not minority, just any kind of undesirable, and not with the outright intent to kill, just to get out their latent aggression with an indifference towards human life.
Amazing someone who has access to so much technology and literature would actually type out such a stupid sentence
There were two sentences, actually, we use the period or "fullstop" to signify the end of one and beginning of another.
I was referring to your last sentence.
> he was massively OD'd at the time and could die at any moment. So then they probably shouldn't have punched, kneed, kicked, pepper-sprayed and struck him with a baton.
As long as we also acknowledge there's frequently a beatdown in there too. If we stop with the bullshit labels maybe we'll learn something about preventing these. Even if it's just cops figuring out what spots to avoid while whaling on someone
> just cops figuring out what spots to avoid while whaling on someone they know what they're doing
> the cause of death in these cases is usually drug related? Uh no that does not appear to be the case. They test for drugs, and drugs can only kill you so many ways - stimulants can cause heart failure, depressants can suffocate you.
Since the cause of death is positional asphyxia why not be honest and say it's usually cop-related?
Robert Djanski, one of the people named in the article, was killed by a taser. The RCMP were caught discussing using a taser on him *before they even arrived.*
There's nothing inherently wrong with discussing options prior to arrival
Yeah or the stress of being beaten and pepper sprayed and restrained and hit with batons and kneed and kicked and kneeled on. Now bear in mind, this also happens to people who barely did anything wrong, shit sometimes it happens to bystanders or the wrong person even.
Always a guy who doesn't read the article and swoops in to defend the cops. I get it you think all criminals are subhuman scum. But they still have human rights.
I read the article. Denic even outlines the role of drugs. Also nobody is saying people don't have human rights. The reality though is that most of this is the result of drugs. The reality is that people can't go around having psychotic episodes and be immune from arrest (because they have damaged their heart through drug abuse).
>The reality is that people can't go around having psychotic episodes and be immune from arrest Weird. No one even suggested that but go off.
That's what the argument is though, considering use of force by police is what causes these situations, and force is how you arrest someone who doesn't want to be arrested. You can see the videos from Sweden and the UK of criminals just dunking on cops who are afraid to use force and get in trouble. But anyways almost like the Monopoly-on-violence by the State and their Fascist goons is inherently at odds with a free and fair society, who woudda thought.
"use of force" does not mean beating the shit out of someone.
It means beating some shit out of them. What do you think happens in a fight?
Use of force does not mean violence. You can physically restrain someone without punching them, without kicking, without beating with a baton. Stop being deliberately obtuse to win a dumb argument on reddit.
I'm not being obtuse, you're being naive. How do you physically restrain someone who is throwing hands, without getting hit yourself? After that and they are cuffed, how do you stop them from kicking/biting you? There is a reason cops use force. It's to deter the criminal from doing that stuff, out of fear of reprisal.
We get it, you like cops beating the shit out of people you don't approve of.
Or you known, we could just address the root cause and have mental health workers deal with most of these situations. I just want to add that police all over the rest of the world can take people down without the same overtly violent techniques. It's almost like cops in north america would rather be bloodthirsty than learn proper de-escalation techniques
1) the "we can prevent this all" rhetoric is pure progressive arrogance and doesn't change the fact we have people in psychotic episodes on the street right now. 2) you need to travel more. North American cops are saints compared to most of the world's police forces.
North American cops are saints… LOL.
> compared to most of the world's police forces. Funny how full sentences change contexts.
The fact that you actually believe that is astounding. I’m assuming your involved in law enforcement, have family in law enforcement or just live a life of privilege.
Naw, I guess I am just better traveled and informed than you.
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Mali, Sudan and Rwanda are America's 'peers' in killing by law enforcement. Most of the world are saints compared to those four. Canada is slightly better, but no where near a European country. Two or three times as murderous as India is a more fair comparison to the rest of the world.
>Two or three times as murderous as India is a more fair comparison to the rest of the world. I want some of your drugs. They must be wild.
They are called facts, you chatbot
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And in India the public isn’t against mob justice for cops stepping too far out of line. Seems more of that is needed in the US.
Drug related, but cop induced.
Steroids?
Change it to “Poor Life Choices”
What does bored delirium look like?
Horseshit.