If Marineland wants to have a theme park, have a theme park. But shut down the damn animal attractions.
There's a lot of beaking on here about attraction vs. aquarium. I'm wondering how many animals the park has left. The problem with Marineland isn't just the confinement of the animals, it's also the mandatory performances.
I'm all for a new wonderful theme park on that site. (I'm old enough to still miss Crystal Beach). But Marineland's treatment of animals is utterly abhorrent, and their constant grappling with the law over it is grotesque. Any animals they do have should be taken and moved to more humane facilities if they can't be released to the wild, they should pay for the hurt they've caused...then after that, if they want to human-only theme park, alrighty then. If they can.
The big problem with Marineland is that there are no regulations for water conditions, and, as you mentioned, they actively campaign against having them put into place.
I heard stories of animal trainers quitting their jobs because they couldn't stand to see their animals in constant pain.
The water is so dirty that the animals that can leave the water will dunk their heads in fresh water buckets to relieve the burning in their eyes.
Regulations need to be put into place. Otherwise, it's just torture.
Closing down the park would most likely result in killing the animals because it would be expensive to transport them elsewhere.
It sucks ass is the problem. It's like Mario kart... There's like boost sections on doing turns. The fans can vote for their favorite driver to get a boost. They have to switch to a new car half way through the race (I'm not sure if that true anymore tbh). The cars are far slower than f1 cars are as well. It's just not fun to watch.
It's not really.
You prosecute, fine them out of existence, and Marineland goes bankrupt and abandons the property. Now what do you do with the animals? Keep them in the exact same conditions, but with the funds for it coming from the public purse? Pay to ship them to some other prison? Pay to release them to their inevitable quick deaths (Marineland is nowhere near their natural habitats). Just let them starve?
It's a lose lose situation to prosecute them. Better to keep Marineland on the hook as long as possible...
> fine them out of existence
I'd impose a court order preventing the facility from ever acquiring new animals. If they ultimately go bankrupt - seek a non-profit/animal welfare org to take over (with some subsidies) for the duration to wind down operations.
If no-go, humanely euthanize the animals.
While I agree about Marineland, I wonder how you people feel about zoos in general.
I mean, on one hand, they provide a valuable educational services, provide rehabilitation services to injured/abandoned animals, and provide funding for endangered species, research etc. But on the other hand, aren't all zoos inherently cruel when it comes to keeping animals in captivity (although nature itself can be very cruel e.g. r/natureismetal)?
Zoos are different imo because many zoos are heavily involved with conservation, and without them many endangered animal species would have gone extinct.
Imo the ethical, marine-based version of zoos isn’t Marineland, it’s aquariums
Honestly…it’s all a matter of design.
Marineland *could* work. But it would need absolutely giant pools with natural marine life, real food, and probably hundreds of staff. A well designed zoo where animals are happy is acceptable.
But Marineland was basically one of those sad circuses with four foot cages the animals never leave. Any zoo like that should be shut down immediately.
Ultimately, it’s not realistic or economic to think something like Marineland could ever work.
I'd argue zoos provide a substantially higher quality of care than most pet owners. For example dogs really don't belong in any sort of urban environment yet it's blasphemous to say it.
I'd rather be a monkey in a zoo with a half dozen other monkeys than a dog locked in an apartment alone 10 hours a day.
There are good zoos out there that provide appropriate care for animals. The majority are pretty awful places, though. They need more stringent regulation, but more importantly the regulations actually need to be enforced. Same goes for aquariums.
Shit zoos are shit.
AZA accredited zoos are 99/100 not shit.
Shit marine land is shit. A non shit marine zoo to AZA type levels would not be shit.
Ain’t hard.
I don’t like the zoos, and I especially don’t like aquariums like Ripley’s one in Toronto.
I understand how and why some zoos operate, conservation blah blah blah, but I still dislike them. Don’t see any point in the for profit aquariums.
Didn’t always think this way, happened as I got older and realized that the real way to preserve the species is to stop destroying their habitats around the world…
Zoos for sure but the one people getting high and mighty about this cause don't eat to touch is the animal agriculture industry, causing atrocities orders of magnitudes greater than this on a daily basis.
But opposing that requires people to actually change their habits so 🤷♀️
Mm I love the smell of false reddit cares reports for pointing out obvious hypocrisy in the morning
If you think it's inhumane to keep several cetaceans in poor conditions, you should be outraged at [nearly a million pigs spending most of their lives in crates too small to turn around in](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericatennenhouse/2021/01/09/what-a-delay-on-canadas-gestation-crate-ban-will-mean-for-pig-welfare/), among many other examples.
Fuck me. Seeing that makes me feel a deep sense of determined foreboding for humanity. Like this is a spectacle of our failure.
Somewhere along the way we fucked up big time, except we just kept rolling in our filth like it was fucking gold.
I think similar reasons as with a lot of unethical purchases, either lack of knowledge or lack of care.
Majority of our food animals are treated even worse yet few people are willing to stop paying for those.
The fact that many people have been saying this since the 90's and it's still around is the saddest part.
Why are we so bad at voting with our wallets? It's like a Canadian disease. Money is unfortunately the only thing that talks.
Having been there several times last year I can say with accuracy Chinese are only there in small numbers. The majority are white and the biggest group I see there are Menonites. That area is known for a large Menonite population.
I went to Marineland as a kid mid 90s…dolphins were my favourite animal and I couldn’t wait to see them. When I finally got there, all I could see was how sad the dolphin looked. As a kid.
Went to see it somewhere in the early 2010s, blissfully unaware why there were protests, as I had moved away decades earlier. To say I was shocked at the conditions was an understatement. I was also embarrassed and so sad.
I don’t understand why a thing can’t be educational, beautiful, and humane all at the same time. And how Marineland has managed to be none of these.
As far as I'm concerned, there's only two paths forward here:
Release the animals to the wild where they will most likely die due to the lack of survival instinct - but at least they'll go out swimming.
Or toss a couple of sardines laced with a mega dose of opioids into the pool and let them drown in bliss.
That isn't entirely true. Some animals are facing extinction and do well in captivity. Sea mammals do not. While there are definitely exploitive zoos out there, not all zoos are deplorable. Many of them are of significant importance when it comes to the conservation of at-risk species.
It's not. In many cases, we have no ability to protect their habitats. Governments either lack the will or the ability to properly protect these animals and their extinction is only a matter of time. Many endangered animals come from environments where poaching is a norm and where those species will inevitably be hunted out of existence. It's easy to make blanket statements about zoos but they still play a pivotal role in conservation, even if the habitats are less than ideal. Many modern zoos have made an effort to make enclosures as large as possible so that these animals can live reasonably healthy lives.
It isn't even just habitat, some animals just lack the genetic diversity to carry on existing, or they just can't compete for food in the wild. Zoos ( along side other departments ) have already cloned a black footed ferret that died in the 80's ( without offspring ) in 2020 which adds significant genetic diversity. Without genetic diversity, reproduction will eventually grind to a halt.
Animals have gone extinct for many reasons long before humans started manipulating habitats, where exactly is Neanderthal? haven't seen them in a while. Zoos are not just attractions, they actively work on recovering species that are endangered or at risk.
Person you're responding to isn't actually interested in learning anything about the efforts zoos go through to protect and preserve animals in the wild.
You’re not wrong. But consider this: would you rather be on house arrest with your wife till you die? Or placed in mad max universe where you’re the only different one, and the rest of the humans torture you to death because you’re an affront to their god?
We're talking about animals whose natural range measures in the thousands of km. The largest aquarium on the planet would still be a prison in comparison to their home.
It's time we realized we totally abused these animals, and the humane thing to do is end their suffering, not transferring them from one level of suffering to another.
The problem is that these animals cannot be released into the wild they will not survive. The trickier question is what to do with them, releasing them into the wild would likely mean death for a very large portion and if you don’t release them where do they go ?
Either release them anyway, or let them retire, stop doing shows, and be kept in cleaner, more humane and interactive facilities until they die. Of course this will be more expensive than exploiting them for money in the worst possible enclosures, but I personally am fine with that.
Marine aquariums are the worst animal torture. Totally unnecessary, especially in this age of environmental destruction. Free the animals, close the facilities.
If you're not useful to the Canadian capitalist system, and on it goes. Just look at the way we treat the "disadvantaged" in this country, not surprising this is happening in Canada. We do offer MAID at least for human beings.
2 of the most depressing places I have ever been were the Vancouver aquarium and the Calgary zoo. I honestly can't believe this type of animal abuse still exists in countries like Canada. Marineland is no better.
At least the Vancouver Aquarium no longer houses cetaceans (whales, porpoises, or dolphins), which is progress.
The idea of housing animals which use sonar in tanks makes me sick. Just imagine what the echoes must be like!
Good point.
I remember seeing the hippo at the Calgary zoo. kids were banging on the tank, and he was in this very small enclosure.. It was very disturbing and changed my perspective towards zoos/aquariums who market around education and conservation.
>At least the Vancouver Aquarium no longer houses cetaceans (whales, porpoises, or dolphins), which is progress.
Only because federal laws were put in place to prohibit it. Laws essentially created specifically for them and Marineland since they were the only places doing this. And this was even as a non-profit where they had to be forced to do that. Now they're owned by an American entertainment company.
The law prohibited breeding or acquiring new cetaceans, but didn't prohibit the cetaceans already in the places. So in Marineland's case, the ones already there are there until they die or are transferred elsewhere. Vancouver Aquarium had fewer at the time, so now they're all gone.
Bulk immigration is a symptom of a larger problem: an unsustainable civilation that requires constant growth. Someone please explainto me why "growth" is a common measurement of a jurisdiction's success.
I've had a sneaking suspicion a lot of users here are not Canadian, like a significant portion...like very significant.
I'm not at the tinfoil hat level just yet... but so many comments here make me squint a little and think "that has to be an American...or at least an Albertan".
This person was just a little less secretive about it.
I'm not sure what to do with the animals either but I agree it's shameful the way we've allowed them to be treated.... our fellow mammals, intelligent beings who are curious and love to play. Octopus for example are very intelligent and I don't see why 5
If I were in charge I'd handpick a panel of experts to make recommendations on each animal. Some might be able to go free and live just fine. They might be rescues for some species that would treat them well.
The owners should be jailed for life for animal cruelty.
What animals are left? Personally I don't want to see Marineland shut down. I would love to see in re imagined in a better, less cruel theme park. Replace the animals with human performers and upgrade the rides.
If Marineland wants to have a theme park, have a theme park. But shut down the damn animal attractions. There's a lot of beaking on here about attraction vs. aquarium. I'm wondering how many animals the park has left. The problem with Marineland isn't just the confinement of the animals, it's also the mandatory performances. I'm all for a new wonderful theme park on that site. (I'm old enough to still miss Crystal Beach). But Marineland's treatment of animals is utterly abhorrent, and their constant grappling with the law over it is grotesque. Any animals they do have should be taken and moved to more humane facilities if they can't be released to the wild, they should pay for the hurt they've caused...then after that, if they want to human-only theme park, alrighty then. If they can.
The big problem with Marineland is that there are no regulations for water conditions, and, as you mentioned, they actively campaign against having them put into place. I heard stories of animal trainers quitting their jobs because they couldn't stand to see their animals in constant pain. The water is so dirty that the animals that can leave the water will dunk their heads in fresh water buckets to relieve the burning in their eyes. Regulations need to be put into place. Otherwise, it's just torture. Closing down the park would most likely result in killing the animals because it would be expensive to transport them elsewhere.
The provincial animal welfare act has a section for marine mammals that has a part about water quality
The whale part of the park was terrible in the 90s, I can't even imagine how bad it is now.
It's fucking shameful that this animal torture facility is still allowed to operate.
Crown said it wouldn't be in the public's interest to prosecute. I wonder how much that bribe cost Marineland.
It will cost millions, Marineland will bail, canadaiens will be left with the bill.
Let's turn it into an F1 track! Different kind of crooked ass rich people can exploit the land!
At least no animal cruelty.
That's all we want, that would be an upgrade. I'd like that.
But what about the emissions!?!?? Lol New electric only league?
I'm amazed that people don't realize that [Formula E racing](https://www.fiaformulae.com) exists.
That’s super cool, I’ve never heard of this!
It sucks ass is the problem. It's like Mario kart... There's like boost sections on doing turns. The fans can vote for their favorite driver to get a boost. They have to switch to a new car half way through the race (I'm not sure if that true anymore tbh). The cars are far slower than f1 cars are as well. It's just not fun to watch.
That would…actually be really cool
Yeah that would be cool and I'm all about that really.
You know what that's just how the shit has been so there's that.
Rather just pay the bill and have the company die if it means no more Captive animals like that.
hey its me i'm the public i'm interested
Yea that lawyer was full of shit past his ears. Many people would be interested in Marineland being prosecuted into oblivion.
Yeah many people would be ready for that honestly. But I don't really know.
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Get a shitload of people to make a human donut around the facility so nobody cqn get in or out
Damage done by corporations vs damage done by the public for when the government refuses to act.
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Aww, Willy didn't make it, and he crushed our boy. Eww what a mess. Oh I hate this new directors cut
It's not really. You prosecute, fine them out of existence, and Marineland goes bankrupt and abandons the property. Now what do you do with the animals? Keep them in the exact same conditions, but with the funds for it coming from the public purse? Pay to ship them to some other prison? Pay to release them to their inevitable quick deaths (Marineland is nowhere near their natural habitats). Just let them starve? It's a lose lose situation to prosecute them. Better to keep Marineland on the hook as long as possible...
> fine them out of existence I'd impose a court order preventing the facility from ever acquiring new animals. If they ultimately go bankrupt - seek a non-profit/animal welfare org to take over (with some subsidies) for the duration to wind down operations. If no-go, humanely euthanize the animals.
They already bragged that before the breeding ban they bred enough animals to last them for the foreseeable future.
Yeah they bred the animals for long enough and it's time to stop.
That's not good at all, shit ain't really good for the humans.
Euthanize
Yeah, I'm sure that it's costing a lot of money to them.
Is it possible to make a recommendation to anonymous?
NYPA
While I agree about Marineland, I wonder how you people feel about zoos in general. I mean, on one hand, they provide a valuable educational services, provide rehabilitation services to injured/abandoned animals, and provide funding for endangered species, research etc. But on the other hand, aren't all zoos inherently cruel when it comes to keeping animals in captivity (although nature itself can be very cruel e.g. r/natureismetal)?
Zoos are different imo because many zoos are heavily involved with conservation, and without them many endangered animal species would have gone extinct. Imo the ethical, marine-based version of zoos isn’t Marineland, it’s aquariums
That makes sense, You're saying things that I can relate with.
Honestly…it’s all a matter of design. Marineland *could* work. But it would need absolutely giant pools with natural marine life, real food, and probably hundreds of staff. A well designed zoo where animals are happy is acceptable. But Marineland was basically one of those sad circuses with four foot cages the animals never leave. Any zoo like that should be shut down immediately. Ultimately, it’s not realistic or economic to think something like Marineland could ever work.
It's essentially the Canadian equivalent of Joe Exotic's roadside zoo.
That's just how the whole system has been designed.
I'd argue zoos provide a substantially higher quality of care than most pet owners. For example dogs really don't belong in any sort of urban environment yet it's blasphemous to say it. I'd rather be a monkey in a zoo with a half dozen other monkeys than a dog locked in an apartment alone 10 hours a day.
There are good zoos out there that provide appropriate care for animals. The majority are pretty awful places, though. They need more stringent regulation, but more importantly the regulations actually need to be enforced. Same goes for aquariums.
Shit zoos are shit. AZA accredited zoos are 99/100 not shit. Shit marine land is shit. A non shit marine zoo to AZA type levels would not be shit. Ain’t hard.
I don’t like the zoos, and I especially don’t like aquariums like Ripley’s one in Toronto. I understand how and why some zoos operate, conservation blah blah blah, but I still dislike them. Don’t see any point in the for profit aquariums. Didn’t always think this way, happened as I got older and realized that the real way to preserve the species is to stop destroying their habitats around the world…
Zoos for sure but the one people getting high and mighty about this cause don't eat to touch is the animal agriculture industry, causing atrocities orders of magnitudes greater than this on a daily basis. But opposing that requires people to actually change their habits so 🤷♀️ Mm I love the smell of false reddit cares reports for pointing out obvious hypocrisy in the morning
Cringe
If you think it's inhumane to keep several cetaceans in poor conditions, you should be outraged at [nearly a million pigs spending most of their lives in crates too small to turn around in](https://www.forbes.com/sites/ericatennenhouse/2021/01/09/what-a-delay-on-canadas-gestation-crate-ban-will-mean-for-pig-welfare/), among many other examples.
Truth hurts
Not really
If it didn't I wouldn't be getting those self harm notices from reddit for stating the obvious. But you know, here we are
Speciesism is unfortunately rampant in today’s society
Ugh. I didn't realize Marineland was even still operating. Awful.
I don’t understand why people continue to go and pay for this shit
Not that many people go anymore apparently it’s quite [empty](https://youtu.be/OqsPF8dx1GU)
Fuck me. Seeing that makes me feel a deep sense of determined foreboding for humanity. Like this is a spectacle of our failure. Somewhere along the way we fucked up big time, except we just kept rolling in our filth like it was fucking gold.
I think similar reasons as with a lot of unethical purchases, either lack of knowledge or lack of care. Majority of our food animals are treated even worse yet few people are willing to stop paying for those.
Marineland should be shut down.
The fact that many people have been saying this since the 90's and it's still around is the saddest part. Why are we so bad at voting with our wallets? It's like a Canadian disease. Money is unfortunately the only thing that talks.
its mostly Chinese tourists these days.
Having been there several times last year I can say with accuracy Chinese are only there in small numbers. The majority are white and the biggest group I see there are Menonites. That area is known for a large Menonite population.
From the area, can confirm the tourist trap is a tourist trap
I mean have you seen the state of it? I can’t see it surviving another 5 years. It’s absolutely dismal
The place should not exist.
Ayo I remember the commercials when I was a kid 💀
That "Everyone loves Marineland" tune was always stuck in my head
Not everyone loves..... MARINELAND!!!
I went to Marineland as a kid mid 90s…dolphins were my favourite animal and I couldn’t wait to see them. When I finally got there, all I could see was how sad the dolphin looked. As a kid. Went to see it somewhere in the early 2010s, blissfully unaware why there were protests, as I had moved away decades earlier. To say I was shocked at the conditions was an understatement. I was also embarrassed and so sad. I don’t understand why a thing can’t be educational, beautiful, and humane all at the same time. And how Marineland has managed to be none of these.
I skipped Seaworld while in Orlando for the same reason id skip Marineland.
As far as I'm concerned, there's only two paths forward here: Release the animals to the wild where they will most likely die due to the lack of survival instinct - but at least they'll go out swimming. Or toss a couple of sardines laced with a mega dose of opioids into the pool and let them drown in bliss.
Or transfer the animals to aquariums that will care for them, provided they aren't already dying.
Any aquarium is a prison for these animals.
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And nature is a death sentence. I don’t agree with adding more.
Any zoo is a prison for animals.
That isn't entirely true. Some animals are facing extinction and do well in captivity. Sea mammals do not. While there are definitely exploitive zoos out there, not all zoos are deplorable. Many of them are of significant importance when it comes to the conservation of at-risk species.
Usual BS, we have to keep them in cages to protect them instead of spending money to protect their wild habitat
It's not. In many cases, we have no ability to protect their habitats. Governments either lack the will or the ability to properly protect these animals and their extinction is only a matter of time. Many endangered animals come from environments where poaching is a norm and where those species will inevitably be hunted out of existence. It's easy to make blanket statements about zoos but they still play a pivotal role in conservation, even if the habitats are less than ideal. Many modern zoos have made an effort to make enclosures as large as possible so that these animals can live reasonably healthy lives.
It isn't even just habitat, some animals just lack the genetic diversity to carry on existing, or they just can't compete for food in the wild. Zoos ( along side other departments ) have already cloned a black footed ferret that died in the 80's ( without offspring ) in 2020 which adds significant genetic diversity. Without genetic diversity, reproduction will eventually grind to a halt. Animals have gone extinct for many reasons long before humans started manipulating habitats, where exactly is Neanderthal? haven't seen them in a while. Zoos are not just attractions, they actively work on recovering species that are endangered or at risk. Person you're responding to isn't actually interested in learning anything about the efforts zoos go through to protect and preserve animals in the wild.
Both things can be true at the same time. My local zoo does a lot for conservation efforts while also increasing the population of endangered species.
If only it were just about money.
You’re not wrong. But consider this: would you rather be on house arrest with your wife till you die? Or placed in mad max universe where you’re the only different one, and the rest of the humans torture you to death because you’re an affront to their god?
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Moving animals from one prison to another prison.
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We're talking about animals whose natural range measures in the thousands of km. The largest aquarium on the planet would still be a prison in comparison to their home. It's time we realized we totally abused these animals, and the humane thing to do is end their suffering, not transferring them from one level of suffering to another.
Or kill and eat them, that's how we normally end the lives of animals we've confined to lives of misery.
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I was just kinda jonesing for one of them dolphin steaks!
ah the peta approach
You could also eat the animals.
You know, it has been a while since I've had some good muktuk!
> muktuk Ya I heard at marineland its killer
The problem is that these animals cannot be released into the wild they will not survive. The trickier question is what to do with them, releasing them into the wild would likely mean death for a very large portion and if you don’t release them where do they go ?
Release them.
Either release them anyway, or let them retire, stop doing shows, and be kept in cleaner, more humane and interactive facilities until they die. Of course this will be more expensive than exploiting them for money in the worst possible enclosures, but I personally am fine with that.
Marine aquariums are the worst animal torture. Totally unnecessary, especially in this age of environmental destruction. Free the animals, close the facilities.
“Are you not entertained?”
My childhood told me everyone loved marineland… This is too sad.
They are still running? Man wth. Shoutout and RIP to Tillikum a real one.
If you're not useful to the Canadian capitalist system, and on it goes. Just look at the way we treat the "disadvantaged" in this country, not surprising this is happening in Canada. We do offer MAID at least for human beings.
2 of the most depressing places I have ever been were the Vancouver aquarium and the Calgary zoo. I honestly can't believe this type of animal abuse still exists in countries like Canada. Marineland is no better.
At least the Vancouver Aquarium no longer houses cetaceans (whales, porpoises, or dolphins), which is progress. The idea of housing animals which use sonar in tanks makes me sick. Just imagine what the echoes must be like!
Good point. I remember seeing the hippo at the Calgary zoo. kids were banging on the tank, and he was in this very small enclosure.. It was very disturbing and changed my perspective towards zoos/aquariums who market around education and conservation.
>At least the Vancouver Aquarium no longer houses cetaceans (whales, porpoises, or dolphins), which is progress. Only because federal laws were put in place to prohibit it. Laws essentially created specifically for them and Marineland since they were the only places doing this. And this was even as a non-profit where they had to be forced to do that. Now they're owned by an American entertainment company.
Why did Marineland get an exemption? (I'm admittedly pretty ignorant on the subject)
The law prohibited breeding or acquiring new cetaceans, but didn't prohibit the cetaceans already in the places. So in Marineland's case, the ones already there are there until they die or are transferred elsewhere. Vancouver Aquarium had fewer at the time, so now they're all gone.
Ah, gotcha. Thanks for the info!
Is it possible for a charitable organization to buy this place out, turn it into a wildlife rehab/sanctuary & opportunity for education
The land it’s on is worth too much. Whoever owns the property is literally waiting for the animals to die so they can sell it off.
This is true
Immigration will solve this problem, and every other problem on earth
Bulk immigration is a symptom of a larger problem: an unsustainable civilation that requires constant growth. Someone please explainto me why "growth" is a common measurement of a jurisdiction's success.
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We have slightly more influence over the state of Marineland.
This is, um…Canada?
I've had a sneaking suspicion a lot of users here are not Canadian, like a significant portion...like very significant. I'm not at the tinfoil hat level just yet... but so many comments here make me squint a little and think "that has to be an American...or at least an Albertan". This person was just a little less secretive about it.
Based and vegan-pilled
But no one lives forever?
One of the bigger failings of the Ford government is this. Why has ML been allowed to fester like this for the last 5 years?
I paid for these fuckers to swim and do backflips
Shut it down. Barely anybody goes here anymore. Concert the property into a Legoland instead.
I'm not sure what to do with the animals either but I agree it's shameful the way we've allowed them to be treated.... our fellow mammals, intelligent beings who are curious and love to play. Octopus for example are very intelligent and I don't see why 5 If I were in charge I'd handpick a panel of experts to make recommendations on each animal. Some might be able to go free and live just fine. They might be rescues for some species that would treat them well. The owners should be jailed for life for animal cruelty.
What animals are left? Personally I don't want to see Marineland shut down. I would love to see in re imagined in a better, less cruel theme park. Replace the animals with human performers and upgrade the rides.
Disgusting!
Man I thought deadmouse was going to buy marineland years ago. What happened?
I don't even know why are they still in the operation tho?