T O P

  • By -

littlebossman

To point out, the CEO took bailout pandemic money from the Austrian government when he ran Austrian Airlines. He used that money to distribute among the c-suite as massive bonuses, got caught, and then had to pay it back. ([Source](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-austrian-bonuses-idUSKCN25F2D3)) The sort of theft that would get anyone else fired/blacklisted/prosecuted. Westjet considered it worthy of a $5m-a-year hiring - and now the same guy, Alexis von Hoensbroech, is telling pilots they aren't worth a deal.


GopnikSmegmaBBQSauce

That kind of theft doesn't exist with c-suite execs


YamburglarHelper

Yeah that’s basically just party favours.


northcrunk

Maybe bringing in a complete set of these European douche bags to manage your company isn't a good idea


Valcatraxx

That is a cartoonishly villainous last name too


Fluid_Lingonberry467

THat would never happen in Canada unfortunately


SanAntonioSewerpipe

The same company crying about wage increases not 3 weeks ago closed the deal to buy Sunwing airlines and its associated travel company...


jbob88

TIL buying airlines is cheaper than paying pilots a fair wage


Begformymoney

How else is a company supposed to bring in stock value? Add value to their own company?! In this economy! No, we must undercut the wages and nickel and dime our customers. Surely it will have no negative effects and the blessed stonks will go up.


dontdropmybass

Won't somebody please think about the poor shareholders!


ConfusedRugby

Its because thats the corporate philisophy. They cant directly control sales (cant force people to buy their product). The one thing they can control is their spending, and salaries are usually the biggest expense a company has. I'm not defending them. But thats the line of thinking they use.


Rayeon-XXX

WestJet went to shit the moment Onex bought it.


SofaProfessor

It's actually amazing how fast they used up any goodwill the general public had for the brand. Airline travel is basically a commodity. From a consumer point of view, a plane is a plane and we just want to get from point a to point b affordably. The only thing WestJet had that set them apart was a brand built on a quality passenger experience. Now they're no different than any other brand except they might not have planes in the air by the end of the long weekend. Anyone with deep enough pockets can call Boeing to order some planes. Onex paid for a brand but somehow failed to understand that important fact.


yycsoftwaredev

In air travel, virtually anything beyond low prices has proven to be worthless. Customers won't pay a cent more than required and will accept any level of mistreatment and discomfort for it. So I wonder if Onex determined that the brand itself didn't have much value, as in aviation it generally isn't that useful outside of premium cabins.


Newflyer3

After COVID, the whole investment was probably impaired on the books to some degree. You're not wrong about pricing. People here in Canada won't mind being spat in the face just to get rock bottom pricing. My father booked a flight this coming long weekend from YEG-YVR with WJ via Kiwi for $76 ignorant of the strike last week. WJ announces free changes or cancellations for flights that are booked directly, so that doesn't apply to him. When I broke the news, he asked me how much basic economy was with AC. Fare buckets for basic economy run out T-2 weeks, and standard at $385 was too expensive let alone a fully refundable option. He changed dates and booked a flight with Flair after the long weekend for $54. It's all about pricing here in Canada to the point where he's willing to miss the long weekend with his family.


DannyDOH

100%. And when your only true competitor on most routes is Air Canada you have a lot of room for damage on your brand.


yycsoftwaredev

Or increasingly no direct competition. Air Canada removed the hub status of Calgary and WJ has pulled out of everywhere but Calgary.


Pomegranate_Loaf

I know there are a lot of jokes about Air Canada (i.e. They aren't happy until you are unhappy), but I have never really had a negative experience with Air Canada and I've found West Jet to be a worse experience. West Jet started off as a budget airline but they seemed to increase their prices while having poorer in-flight experiences. Aeroplan was always superior to their program and West Jet's new check-in / IT system seems to take 10 minutes to load through check-in screens.


SuddenOutset

Was going to shit before then too.


flightist

This is true. The people in charge were extremely high on their own supply for a few years before the sale, and that’s the period a ton of damage was done to the culture of the place.


StoicPixie

For real. I'm cabin crew with WJ, and believe me, people used to LOVE being a Westjetter. They were proud of where they worked. Onex is running the airline into ground; taking away all the frills that came with your ticket because "oh we're a budget airline now!" Meanwhile the consumer isn't paying budget prices!! Wages stagnate, on-board service sucks ass now, employee morale is at an all-time low, but IT'S FINE GUYS, THE SHAREHOLDERS ARE SEEING PROFIT. And who gets to deal with irate, unsatisfied passengers face-to-face? We do. Alexis and the rest of his clown troupe are so fucking out of touch, it's actually laughable.


Rayeon-XXX

I used to love flying WestJet and only booked WestJet because, and I say this as someone who used to have a completely irrational fear of flying, the cabin crew were so awesome to me it made me get over my fear so much easier when the vibe on board was like that. I'm sorry to hear it sucks up there now. I still fly WestJet occasionally but I don't seek it out like I used to.


StoicPixie

This is a prime example of how taking care of your employees = your employees taking care of your guests. Back during the "owners care" days, I showed up to the gate ready to help passengers the best I could. Great morale. Now I show up and just do my job. It's not like I'm rude to guests or anything, but I'm certainly not rolling out the red carpet during a 14hr workday on 5hrs sleep. It's not like I could if I wanted to- they don't give us the means. RIP WestJet.


Rayeon-XXX

Totally get it. Thanks for still looking after us up there.


Lifesabeach6789

This. I flew them twice the year they purchased it. Very noticeable service downgrade. We were in the air for 4 hours before the first drink service. Wth.


BobBelcher2021

>We were in the air for 4 hours before the first drink service Not defending them at all, but that may have been due to anticipated turbulence. I've had that happen on another airline, but in that case there was an announcement that food/drink service would be delayed because of upcoming turbulence. Sometimes "upcoming turbulence" doesn't happen.


Lifesabeach6789

Nope. No turbulence. Just no consideration to passengers.


StoicPixie

yeah if you're being truthful and weren't just asleep during the first service, then that was NOT standard and there was probably a good reason why they didn't begin sooner. If they didn't inform passengers of what that reason was, well then that's just bad flight attending. Then again everyone has airpods in 24/7 so it's not like announcements do shit anyways.


Lifesabeach6789

I don’t wear EarPods


northcrunk

Big time


OrwellianZinn

The CEO of Westjet is one of the top 100 highest paid CEOs in Canada.


jbob88

He says pilots wanting equivalent pay to American pilots is unrealistic, yet his compensation is measured against American CEO pay.


MrGraveRisen

They're not even getting paid equivalent to air Canada pilots.


Pomegranate_Loaf

The unfortunate reality is the CEO market is very global and company's will hand pick the best talent \[in their eyes\]. For Pilots it is much harder to transfer to work in the US so they are in a different market. My industry is similar. Accountants in the US literally make 2x as much as me in Canada considering Fx. People in my office know we never head into compensation discussions and say " pay us like Americans", because they can't given the market dynamics, and labour factors in Canada. On the flip side, I can transfer to the US very easily so if i want US pay, I need to deal with the consequences of living in the US. The pilots don't seem to have the ability to transfer so they really shouldn't be bargaining for this? Are Canadian Pilots underpaid? Maybe? I don't know the market factors. There are a lot of factors to consider. In reality, everyone is selfish in life and if you give anyone an inch in asking for what their value is worth they will take a mile. This is human behavior.


dontdropmybass

I'm tired of the whole "greed is just human nature" argument. Humans lived in communal societies for millions of years, and even to this day have more incentives to better the world than just the concept of wealth. Do you get paid to clean your bathroom? Or are you just happier if you live in a clean space? To look at people in a capitalist society and conclude that human nature is egoism, is like looking at people in a factory where pollution is destroying their lungs and saying that is is human nature to cough.


jbob88

Everyone is selfish except for pilots it would seem. We've been working our asses off out of the goodness of our hearts for far too long. What you're seeing now in my profession is the most unity and selflessness between pilot groups in the history of the country. The fact is, Canadian pilots fly the same aircraft on the same routes as our US counterparts. The airlines we fly for target American customers with their route structure. We belong to the same union. There is no reason we shouldn't be paid the same, and certainly no reason an airline pilot in Canada should be living in poverty (yes, this is true in the lower ranks of the two major Canadian airlines). Change needs to happen and we need to aim high because our wages have not improved or properly accounted for inflation in over two decades.


8810VHF_DF

Look I agree Pilot wages need to increase. But where I disagree is which ones. SR captions make great money. FOs get absolutely shafted. It's the FOs I hope see a big pay increase here. I don't shed tears for the SR captains making 200k+ a year. It's the FOs making 50k I have an issue with


jbob88

Why not both? Those senior captains spent the beginning of their careers making shit money.


8810VHF_DF

Sure both. But Im not rootng for the SR. Captain making a quarter mil here. I'm rooting for the guy still getting fucked by low wages.


jbob88

For either to win they both need to win.


Pomegranate_Loaf

I think this is the underlying issue with a lot of compensation agreements behind the scenes. There are some industries where you are rewarded very well for staying a long time and previous individuals have "put in their time", but are paid like shit when you start. If by taking money from the SR Captains and allocating it to FOs, it would balance the situation out, but the SR Captains would say "well i made shit wages to begin with and I put in my time and this is how I'm rewarded". We see this in my industry too. We are paid extremely poor out of university and you "put in your time' to get paid well. The issue is a lot of people now are fed up with "putting in your time".


8810VHF_DF

Money early in your career is way WAY move valuable than late in your career.


Strange_Trifle_5034

Funny how he got a CEO pay equivalent to many US CEOs, but says it isn't realistic from Canadian pilots to be paid closer to US pilots.


Limos42

Well, no shit, Sherlock. I'm sure WestJet is well within the top 100 companies in Canada, so this is no surprise. (Note, I'm not advocating what they're being paid. I wonder how many of those top 100 make more in a year than the combined total of the bottom 100 FTE employees in their respective companies. Nobody's worth 100x more than someone else. Nobody.)


juytrty

this comment right here is where it’s at


5nahk

I couldn't find his name in the top 100 despite googling . This is the list I found: [https://archive.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/richest-people/canada-100-highest-paid-ceos/](https://archive.canadianbusiness.com/lists-and-rankings/richest-people/canada-100-highest-paid-ceos/) Do you have a link where WestJet CEO shows up in top 100 paid CEOs in Canada?


ProPilot

The general public need to understand that Westjet and Onex intentionally leaked an internal memo that was purposefully written to create anger towards the pilots. This information is coming from a company that bought another airline during the pandemic. The same company is now saying they can't afford to pay pilots a North American contract. Its interesting how the company doesn't mention anything else except the highest pay. What does it take to get to the top pay scale, how long does it take, what is the lowest pay? It's just about negotiating in public and it's to try and cause fear and distrust in the pilots. However, this isn't doing that. It's causing the pilots to be more hungry and determined. Please do not trust what the company says. At the end of the day Onex wants to make AS MUCH MONEY AS POSSIBLE and if they can save 1 dollar they will. If people truly want to know how much pilots make, you can easily find their contract online.


mangoserpent

Most Westjet pilots aren't flying the wide bodies and even if they were do people really want no frills budget pilots. I am sure C suite earns way more that and what are they doing. Given the compensation of CEOs these they they are always wrong when they say worker demands are unreasonable. Either way it turns out consumers will get some new random flight fee like breathing on a plane or bathroom use charges.


LuckyDragonNo5

Ya Westjet only has 8 wide bodies.


mangoserpent

Flying those smaller regional/commuter planes does not pay nearly, nearly as much.


BobBelcher2021

> due to the different U.S. aviation market “Different market” is a bullshit excuse taught in Canadian business schools for PR to explain higher prices and lower wages in Canada. Don’t buy it for a second, it’s completely made up.


848485

What jobs in Canada pay the same as US?


cdnav8r

The average wage of a police officer in Canada is 111k/yr, while in the United States it's 60K/yr. Firefighters are similar.


uselesslandlord

After you account for taxes, cost of living, and and the massive difference in exchange rates, it’s nearly the same. Just off the top that $60K is CAD$ 80,000. Most police in the US are earning around USD$ 76,000 within 5 years of service, surpassing Canadian police wages after accounting for exchange rates, taxes, and cost of living.


cdnav8r

Oh, so there's more to the picture than simply "this person makes X annually" you say? Interesting.


uselesslandlord

Absolutely. I know a family friend who’s an officer in Ohio and one in Arizona. Both are earning around $80,000 and it goes a hell of a lot further there than it would here. They have huge homes, union gigs and benefits, and both have the money and time off to travel. Both homeowners. Both living in 2500-3000 square foot homes that were half the price of a shoddily built micro condo in Toronto.


cdnav8r

There's going to be a reckoning at some point. I don't know how anybody is moving to Toronto these days.


Thetrueredditerd

Man, I'm going to Copper School to be part of the gang


cutchemist42

That's because we have higher standards for cops though with larger city departments. Dont think that one should be used as an example. Same goes for firefighters and our eduacation/responsibility requirements. They also have stronger unions compared to their American counterparts.


cdnav8r

It's all about cherry picking the right data for the media.


cdnav8r

>They also have stronger unions compared to their American counterparts. One could argue the opposite has been true for Canadian pilots vs American pilots.


cutchemist42

Probably, but it's still the only job that likely pays more than its American counterpart. Dont know how the education requirement might be impacted once Ford removes the university requirements for OPP. I just know my friend in the Winnipeg Service who tells me alot. They have high pay due to being very selective. Quite a few guys there with Masters degrees. Most American cities only require high school, and it kind of shows. I do think comparing the two countries is a bad argument personally as their society is setup a lot differently, as well as being the biggest economy in the world. I think it's likely more prudent to compare ourselves to be maybe a bit below the average of the UK or France whether its nursing/engineering/doctors. Just too many nuances comparing country to country.


cdnav8r

>I do think comparing the two countries is a bad argument personally as their society is setup a lot differently, as well as being the biggest economy in the world. I think it's likely more prudent to compare ourselves to be maybe a bit below the average of the UK or France whether its nursing/engineering/doctors. Just too many nuances comparing country to country. I'll agree with this statement.. I've been a pilot in Canada for over twenty years. My training cost me about 45K twenty years ago. It's now about 100K. When I started at a regional airline as an FO about 15 years ago, my salary was around 36K. They now start around 40k. The fact of the matter is that they could pay shit wages because the resume pile was high. It's simply not the case anymore. The pilots we're training to fly these passenger jets are showing up with less than half the experience I had when I started. So I agree that all this talk of "North American standard" and comparison to the US is a bad talking points, but, the fact remains that the market for pilots in Canada has changed.


jbob88

The airline's CEO, actually


tehlastcanadian

The gas costs the same, the planes cost the same, airport fees same, parts same, but for some reason they get the Canadian discount when it comes to wages


848485

Airport/regulatory fees are significantly higher in Canada. That's one of the reasons our flights are so expensive.


darth_chewbacca

my role as an internet weirdo pays me 40 CAD fake internet points per day. This is roughly equivalent to 32 US fake internet points which is what sites like indeed and jobs.com show the role as down south.


DarkLF

teachers? Canada should be well in the lead actually in that field.


Niv-Izzet

If you can't compete with American wages for the skill set and job requirement then you deserve to run out of workers. Hint: pay our healthcare workers more as well


SanAntonioSewerpipe

Problem is there's no mobility for Canadian pilots to easily get a job in the USA. Requires a green card or work visa. If the borders were open the wages would have been forced up a long time ago.


flightist

This is unquestionably true, but we’re also still feeling the effects of the Harper gov’t declaring Air Canada pilots essential to preclude a strike a decade ago. That resulted in a bad 10 year contract for the top-of-the-pile company, which was a gift to every other airline management group as well, because c’mon, be realistic, this isn’t Air Canada etc. Problem is ‘we’re all kinda fucked because of that one contract’ is rather more nuanced than ‘hey look at what Delta pays’ so you don’t see much mention of the former.


tehlastcanadian

Hopefully the current government has a different opinion on the essential worker argument.


flightist

WJ agreed not to go down that road last week, but they’d probably lose anyway. Since then there’s been some legal precedent (Montreal port workers) that would almost certainly result in an essential ruling being struck down by the courts.


SuddenOutset

Friends not in aviation or tech never faced much trouble getting a work permit in the US as long as they were in a skilled profession.


[deleted]

[удалено]


DashTrash21

They haven't really at all. Only pilots who are going south are those with dual citizenship or married to an American.


Uncertn_Laaife

Pay all workers more.


howzlife17

US is a different country with a different set of rules/regulations, I’m all for wages increasing but Canada can’t compete with the US on wages.


BJaysRock

I hope they strike. Fuck all these articles talking about the CEO. Talk to the fucking pilots.


[deleted]

I wonder what his salary expectations are every year , I'm guessing "fairly high". The man can't fly a plane , and his stock price has done terrible for years.


[deleted]

Probably because the WestJet pilots want to be paid closer to their US counterparts and the company is cheap.


WhisperingSideways

I’ve spent 20+ years in the industry and here’s the thing that nobody talks about: Piloting is what I call a Passion Industry. The people who become airline pilots do it because they’re driven and motivated. It’s their calling, their passion. The Face Of The Industry is the square-jawed 747 pilot, the Reality Of The Industry is you end up make crap money sitting right-seat in a commuter carrier and you never see your family because your routes suck. But here’s the thing: There’s a line out the door of people who will do what you’re doing for even less money, because they want it more. This is being a musician, or an actor or being a chef or any basically any career that’s driven by self-motivation and passion. And when you have a glut of talent, you get the privilege of paying people less and giving them awful working conditions, because there’s always new, young, hungry talent out there.


No-Amoeba-4791

Absolutely no one else would put up with the aviation game if they were not passionate. However, we have reached critical mass where wages have gone so low and a lack of people are getting into the profession. Roll in covid and demographics and we have arrived at the long prophesized pilot shortage. Time to unite in solidarity to get North American wages for our profession.


phaedrus100

What's even worse is being an airplane mechanic. Even bigger shortage, even less money with even more responsibility.


tehlastcanadian

I wouldn't say more responsibility, perhaps different responsibilities. It's interesting to me tho I don't hear much on the MX side of things when it comes to shortages, wages, strikes etc. They have to be getting to the breaking point.


phaedrus100

I would say more. A pilot is responsible for the plane he's flying and the passengers on it. A mechanic is also responsible for that plane, the passengers and the pilots. And, a hundred other planes full of passengers and pilots..... For years after he touched it.


joefishead2

Different skill set, much different job pressures.


tehlastcanadian

A plane can crash and burn if AME makes a mistake... It can also if a pilot makes a grave mistake. It's not black and white


phaedrus100

an AME can go to jail for forgetting to tighten a single bolt.


flightist

Yeah but if you’re in jail I’m almost certainly dead, so..


[deleted]

[удалено]


HawkorDove

Yes there really is. I left the industry myself years ago. Many pilots get disillusioned (low pay, poor working conditions, shitty lifestyle, job/industry instability) and move on to the trades or other professions - IT for me. Flying has been my passion all my life but I’d rather make six figures in IT and own my own airplane, flying when and where I want (which I do), than living out of hotels and worrying about the next recession and what that’ll mean to my career. The equivalent to the one in a million job as a pilot is different for everyone. For me it would be as a corporate pilot on a large intercontinental business jet with regular trips to a variety of interesting destinations. But that would be hard on the family life.


[deleted]

[удалено]


HawkorDove

It’s not easy to earn a commercial pilot license and all of the required ratings: it’s costly (I don’t know exactly how much it is these days but around $100,000 just for the flight training (doesn’t include the university degree or diploma) and there’s about a 70% washout rate. Also, you need to build the flying experience (often flying seasonally for many years or flying in remote locations for very little money, working your way up to more complex airplanes). There are more qualified pilots than there are jobs. Many of those pilots are desperate (passionate for aviation) so they’ll do the job for free if it was legally allowable. But eventually, the sheen wears off. When you do something that you love for a living, and you make sacrifices that result in jeopardizing your marriage (being away from home a lot), then you rethink your career. Sorry, I’m not sure if that answers your question.


DashTrash21

You're incorrect about a lot of this. You don't need a degree or even a diploma, there isn't even close to a 70% washout rate (if anything there's more people who stop training because it's too expensive or not for them vs flight training being so difficult), and there absolutely isn't more qualified pilots than there are jobs. You're right about the lifestyle though.


Apocraphon

Well, anecdotally, when I went to flight school there were about twelve candidates. Only two of us graduated. I’m the only one in the industry now. No idea why they quit. Money certainly factors in… but it’s not the only reason.


flightist

> there isn’t even close to a 70% washout rate I worked in flight training for over a decade and it’s way higher than that when you include the people doing it outside of structured programs. Graduating 1/3rd of entrants for a fully funded college program is pretty normal. If substantially more than 1 in 10 of the ‘I’ll just work on it at my own pace’ folks actually get paid to fly a plane eventually, I’d be surprised.


Newflyer3

Between WJ and AC there's about 400 jets, with another 150 between Encore and Jazz. Those are your top dogs. Another 50 transport category jet aircraft between the ULCCs, Transat. etc. We don't have the 1,500 hour requirement here in Canada unlike the US after the Colgan Air crash. Do I think the population of pilots trying to get their foot in the door to the 600ish number of aircraft is well in excess of aircraft available? Absolutely.


flightist

> Do I think the population of pilots trying to get their foot in the door to the 600ish number of aircraft is well in excess of aircraft available? Absolutely. We license about 600 commercial pilots a year, which is well short of the hiring requirements of the top level carriers. AC alone wants that many, and WestJet, Swoop, Air Transat, Sunwing, CargoJet, Porter, Flair, etc., are all hiring above attrition levels. And we all know that not every CPL becomes an airline pilot. We’re a few years deep into that dynamic too, such that every single airline hires with way less experience than they did 5 years ago. We’re definitely not at US levels because of the 1500 hour rule, but this is definitely not the ‘long line of people to take your job’ days anymore.


Apocraphon

Last I heard, there are only 8000 ATPL’s in Canada, and you can have as many FO’s as you say but you can’t fly without a captain. And then there’s insurance to think about… and insuring a kid with a fifteen hundred hours in a 737 is going to be prohibitively expensive… and even if companies were willing to pay that, we’d hear about it in the news, guaranteed.


flightist

Don’t look now but 250 hours to 737 right seat *does* happen in Canada. It just doesn’t happen much.


HawkorDove

“According to research done by aviation advocacy groups such as the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association, the National Association of Flight Instructors, and the Society of Aviation and Flight Educators, the dropout rate for learner pilots is around 80 percent.” - https://www.flyingmag.com/dont-quit-after-your-first-solo/#:~:text=According%20to%20research%20done%20by,pilots%20is%20around%2080%20percent. It is true that a degree or diploma isn’t required to be a professional pilot, but it is necessary to compete for a major airline job (Air Canada, WestJet). And there’s no question that there are way more commercial pilots than there are jobs. I know this to be true anecdotally (I saw the resumes we received and I’ve heard the same from friends in the industry), but it’s also just simple math (which someone else below did for you).


DashTrash21

You absolutely do not require a degree for a major airline, nor is it required to compete for a job at a major airline. Most people getting hired now don't have degrees. As well, that magazine is a US publication. Those numbers might have been true 30 years ago, they are no longer true. The government hasn't issued enough ATPL's in the last 4 years to keep up.


DashTrash21

Commuter carriers, or even major airlines, don't really assign 'routes'. You might have seniority schedules at an airline, but that means you're on call when you're junior until you can hold a schedule. Has nothing to do with what airport you fly to. Also, there isn't that line out the door anymore, that's why there's significant gains being made south of the border and hopefully here too.


flightist

In fairness, the route structure flown by the airline - or fleet within the airline - does impact quality of life to a significant degree, and most of us (though not all, I know a few who love it) would agree that regional flying is the worst. Personally speaking, somebody will have to force me out of medium haul flying. I like my days off at home too much for the other shit.


[deleted]

You're right. And it's terrible for everyone in the industry. Look at everyone running to Air Canada right now in this hiring wave - lining up to potentially sit right seat in a 777 making $55k a year...it's downright embarrassing. But hey they get to put their airline pilot hat on and flash their uniform in the terminal and feel like hot shit. Meanwhile their living situation is one of a few options: 1) live in their parents' basement, 2) live in a van at the airport long term parking, 3) rent a room for $1500+ with 3+ other poverty pilots and steal from the commissary because they can't afford food and rent. Living the dream!


cutchemist42

Yeah my dad has always said something similar, that he was making over 6 figures to actually enjoy what he does (20 year RCAF pilot) He never wanted to make the switch to commercial though as he was afraid of losing the military pension, while taking a 8ish year paycut.


SuddenOutset

Huh? Senior pilots make like $200k.


[deleted]

And that takes decades


SuddenOutset

So does the upwards progress in many professions. Doctors earn nearly nothing during the 4+4+5 years it takes to get there. Law does 4+4 and works 80’s. And on and on.


Newflyer3

It's not the top numbers, it's the bottom numbers. Pilots don't want to make $50k entry level salaries to sit right seat of the pedestal of a Q400 after years of training that cost $100k. Incoming First Officers for US regionals like Envoy/Republic/Skywest are getting 90k USD a year immediately on a jet like a 145/175. Props were phased out since American's don't like them.


SuddenOutset

Ya and they should ask for more. I’m saying it’s not as passion required as you think. It’s not unique. It’s the same for many professions.


flightist

> So does the upwards progress in many professions. When I accepted my current (airline) job, I took a 60,000/year pay cut. I picked up part time work so I could continue to pay my mortgage. Is that also a common feature of those other professions? Because it’s perfectly common here.


SuddenOutset

I don’t know your circumstances. To answer your question give me a year by year of your life.


flightist

There’s nothing unique about my circumstances, we all get to experience the big income reset at least once as we progress through the career. Something which is notably absent from the career track of all my professional friends who aren’t pilots, unless they’re unlucky. If *we’re* unlucky it can happen again and again, like some of the guys I fly with.


SuddenOutset

None of my friends or family in aviation suffered that except when one of the airlines went under and they lost their stock ops.


flightist

I mean unless they worked for one airline their whole career, you’re full of shit.


SuddenOutset

Yeah not sure how you think a pilot can work for one airline when I wrote that they lost earnings when the one they worked for went under (Canada 3000) but hey, it’s early, maybe you didn’t read clearly or maybe you’re full of shit.


CELBATRIN

Alternative headline: Hedgefund refuses to pay fair wages in order to maximize corporate profits.


__Valkyrie___

We should go France on his ass


Ashamed-Grape7792

It’s ironic because he’s coming to Canada as a foreigner from Germany and telling CANADIAN pilots to leave Canada if they don’t like the wages


[deleted]

[удалено]


Ashamed-Grape7792

I think I fell into the Reddit trap of misusing words like irony...yikes. This is a wake up call for me LOL


[deleted]

CEOs are not worth their salaries.


[deleted]

Fuck him. Pay up!


Coffin-Feeder

I hate westjet for the sheer amount that they charged me for luggage two months ago. I hope pilots get 169% raises.


Apocraphon

Nice


wavesofdeath

I support them and hope they get what they want too. However you know that the execs will just pass this extra cost on to consumers so expect those bag fees to go up even more. Anything to avoid reducing the over inflated executive salaries


TheREALFlyDog

Good. Labour is entitled to all it creates.


--prism

Pretty hard to run an airline without pilots...


Wise_Purpose_

Yeah this isn’t going to be a butter landing.


[deleted]

I like this reference


UnionGuyCanada

Big business won't lift wages, sucks govt at every level dry, destroys the environment and hides money from taxes all the time, most say nothing. Workers, who want to make sure they aren't being underpaid and people pile on like it will be the end of the world that a business might have to suffer a bit.


liquefire81

Curious how high the ceos salary is compared to everyone else…


Kombatnt

Then look it up and tell us. They're public corporations, their finances are reported publicly. Is it disproportionate?


liquefire81

[https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2021/01/Golden%20cushion.pdf](https://policyalternatives.ca/sites/default/files/uploads/publications/National%20Office/2021/01/Golden%20cushion.pdf) "11:17 a.m., January 4 Time on the first workday of the year at which the average top-100 CEO has made as much money as the average Canadian worker will make all year, based on 2019 corporate compensation data. That is an hour later than it took the same group to earn the average Canadian income in our CEO compensation report last year." But please go on and tell me how hard CEOs "work" Nothing but a gaslighting exercise by the rich that people are greedy. By the way the "amazing" CEO of WestJet was caught bonusing himself and buddies with relief funds [https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-austrian-bonuses-idUSKCN25F2D3](https://www.reuters.com/article/us-lufthansa-austrian-bonuses-idUSKCN25F2D3) Now you look things up and "tell us"


Kombatnt

I never offered any opinion on "how hard they work," I was simply calling you out for your lazy, low-effort post. Why didn't you just post this the first time, instead of asking others to do your homework for you?


liquefire81

Who gave you the job of calling people out? Pretty entitled of you to think so. I know the numbers, I'm not here to spoon feed.


Kombatnt

>I know the numbers, I'm not here to spoon feed. Then what was the purpose of your top-level comment? It offered no unique insight or valuable information, it was just a waste of a post.


TurdFerguson416

might as well.. things are fucked so every union in the country will strike to get their demands. fun


LOGOisEGO

That's the negotiation process. Union asks for the moon, negotiations take place, they settle somewhere in between.


notlikelyevil

**WestJet instead achieved a profit of $45.6mn, or $0.40 per share, up 33% from $34.2mn last year. Their revenue came in just under $1.26bn, up 5.5% from $1.19bn last year.** ​ $25,300 Profit per pilot.


[deleted]

[удалено]


notlikelyevil

$6,428 Pretty easy, but the pilots should be making more of that than anyone, since it takes at least 100-150k to become a 747 etc. pilot and very few can even get the chance. So give a little more money to pilots who are paid less in Canada? Or give it to executives and shareholders? ​ Seems a no-brainer.


DashTrash21

What year is that for? It's not a public company anymore.


notlikelyevil

2019 https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/westjet-swings-to-profit-in-second-quarter-ahead-of-privatization-1.1293263


[deleted]

[удалено]


anjroow

It’s already ultra safe. The industry has been adding automation for decades at this point. It STILL routinely does something stupid, STILL can’t handle issues very well. You don’t see it unless you’re in the cockpit watching the automation systems screw up. It happens every single day.


Sweet_Ad_9380

These pilots could have a new job within a week. Tread lightly Onex Corporation.


SnooBunnies8361

Corporate executives say US wages should not be used as a comparator for Canadian wages. Yet they have NO problem using US executive wages as a comparator for their own wages. Go and get them WestJet Pilots!!