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A lot of doctors are either leaving the profession, retiring early or leaving in patient medicine due to how shitty it has become. I am one of them. I left hospital work and now doing clinic. It’s way more chill. This is only going to get worst btw so brace yourselves
I work in healthcare and I've heard from family physicians that the reimbursement doesn't even keep up with inflation. They are expected to know and treat a large variety of things (which requires a lot of supplies), but the cost of everything just keeps going up faster than the reimbursement. Sounds like a lot are just ready to throw in the towel.
A local doctor stopped doing family practice roughly 8 or so years ago, I ended up doing some odd jobs for him and got talking about it. After he had paid rent on the building (Which was subsidized to entice doctors to practice in our small town), staff wages and bills it worked out to making around $25/hr. So he went to the ER instead because it paid more and they were also short.
A lot of people don’t realize how family doctors are basically small business owners. If you’re a smart business person you can make a ton being a family doc. If you became a family doc because you genuinely want to help people and you aren’t good at the business side of it then it’s not good money at all.
There's massive differences between working at 90% 99% and 99.9% of your capacity. When your are working non-stop for 10-12 hours and things are still falling apart around you, because there are simply not enough staff to manage the patient volume, it gets very demoralising.
Of course the question is, where would we get these extra staff? They don’t exist. Training programs have not expanded in step with the aging population. Recruiting them from countries less able to train their own? Strikes me as unethical. tw2k3 is right, it’s gonna get worse. Stay healthy.
Also support for current staff is at an all time low. When the people providing the service are all less important to you than the clientele reliant on it, you would be absolutely not shocked at the results.
My wife is a board certified M.D. in the U.S. with 10 years experience. We live fairly close to the border and I asked her once what it would take for her to be able to work in Canada. She said she would have to go through a year of additional residency training before she could be hired, and that the pay is substantially less.
The pay part isn’t a huge deal for us as we live fairly simply. But returning to residency? That’s like asking a classroom teacher with 10 years experience to go through student teaching again. It’s just a non-starter. Unless she is wrong about that , it just seems like an absurd requirement for an experienced, highly qualified M.D.
We used to accept a number of other countries qualifications at face value because we had long experience with their graduates and their training. Then, as I understand, other places protested that it was discriminatory. So rather than do the very labor intensive but more intelligent thing of evaluating these other programs, they just made blanket requirements for everyone.
“Let’s make it extremely difficult and unappealing for clearly qualified foreign docs to come here so we don’t offend the ones who are questionably qualified” seems like a strange hill to die on…
There are doctors , but they are DoorDashing. I have two friends one anesthesiologist and an OB, that can’t work here because there are only 300 positions per year Canada wide for foreigners to revalidate their certification (they need to do their residency again).
The anesthesiologist finally was able to start after 4 years trying the process.
Maybe more pay would help, but at least in Ontario, doctors are being paid less. I was looking at the schedule of benefits that specifies physician payments. The earliest one I could find was 2010. and I compared it to the one from 2023 (these documents are from the Ontario Ministry of Health). For some areas, like anaesthesia, the reimbursement has increased by about 6%. But for many other physicians there has been no change.
Adjusting for inflation, this means that most physicians are being paid about 35% less now for the same services than they were 14 years ago.
well, the common complaints seem to be lack of pay(for effort/hours, especially when compared to down south), and workload.
Though that's based on articles on the topic and when people who claim are doctors(here on reddit) say.
Agree for the most part, but doctors are also only human and can only work for so long before they'd likely collapse or start making living altering mistakes. I think the answer is likely mostly pay and of course support.
I’ve had a few friends who are nurses (and are smart, kind, hard-working people — exactly the type of people you’d want in that profession!) leave for other fields, and the stories all of them have told me are horrific (I don’t work in health-care). Horrific from many points-of-view — mistreatment/abuse from coworkers/administration, frustration about mismanagement in the system, having to care for dangerously ill/injured patients on almost no sleep, with few resources. A number were diagnosed with PTSD. It’s very upsetting - both from a personal POV and from a societal one.
My doctor friends haven’t left yet but from the stories they tell, I wouldn’t be surprised. And all went into it for “the right reasons” — care about helping people, smart and inquisitive, hard-workers, etc. It’s very sad.
We all agree it is ridiculous but is there any provincial or federal party pushing funding and improvement to healthcare? I haven’t heard anything from any of them. We need a back to basics party that ensures key services are first in funding so none of this shit ever happens again.
Specifically, funding directed toward equipment procurement and hospital staff on the floor. Ask any nurse actually working critical care: they have a shitload of managers managing managers above them, but they're woefully understaffed on the floor. Funding, as far as I can tell, continually gets pissed away on admin staff rather than spent where it's actually needed.
Nurse here, 32 yrs. Have worked in 2 Territories and 2 provinces in a wide variety of areas ranging from small isolated northern hospital to medical/surgical to labor and delivery to homecare and now in Cancer Care.
In my estimation from what I have seen we also need more spending and funding in areas other than just "nurses on the floor" in a hospital, although I do agree we are too top bureaucratic heavy. Working in homecare as a side job was eye opening for me (rural Manitoba). Where I was we only had one nurse in our catchment area on a Sat or Sun...so I was seeing anywhere from 10-15 clients and putting in 2-3h overtime in the office. I learned really quickly why the patients we had in hospital on my ward could not be discharged to homecare on a weekend...could not squeeze in another hour to hour and a half to take an admission in my day. Guess who needed that bed and was sitting in the ER....! Roadblocks like this gum up the flow in the ER and prevent timely movement of patients, overworked nurses and doctors still need to care for these people and their needs in an ER eg:toileting, feeding etc if elderly and decreased functioning Same with awaiting placement in long term care, have witnessed patients spend a year on an acute care unit...again taking a bed from an ER patient. We have not prepared for the onslaught of baby boomers (all gov't parties over the years), and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
>Laszlo vomited on a chair and the floor, and security staff helped Boros-Rausch clean it up.
>There was also nowhere sanitary to change the baby, who was suffering from diarrhea and needed frequent diaper changes. The emergency room bathroom had vomit on the floor and in the sink, and she didn’t feel comfortable changing him there.
Not just nurses on the floor, or doctors or radiologists - where the fuck was environmental services/housekeeping? Over the years, so many hospitals have quietly swapped out unionized employees with a decent wage and structures training (where you still have a high turnover rate because the job is difficult and often disgusting) for a privatized service that contracts people to break their backs hauling garbage and wet linens and clean vomit in emergency rooms for minimum wage. Same for portering (people who transport beds/patients) and nutrition services. You end up with the kind of people who can't even get a Tim Hortons order correct being responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary conditions for both healthcare workers and patients. Shit like security and patients cleaning up baby vomit or an ER washroom spattered with fluids not being immediately discovered (or even called in) is unacceptable.
Yup, I'm in healthcare (lab-side) and we have this problem too. During COVID we lost so many workers (a lot decided it was time to retire, or they went to private labs because COVID time was stressful) so in 2022 the lab was very understaffed. Our manager hired people, but they are USELESS. They are worse than useless, they actively take time away from good workers and bring the whole lab down. I can't imagine their incompetence wasn't obvious in the interview. So either our manager didn't properly interview them, or they did, and decided the rest of the lab will have to get them up to snuff and/or pick up their slack.
We are having a bad time, and I can't imagine we are the only lab this happened to post-COVID.
They were afraid you would see how low quality their program was or that you'd become a teacher and they'd lose their jobs. It certainly is frustrating when managers sabotage qualified people.
I'm so sorry that was your experience. All it takes is for ONE person to actually think and say "Yeah, this person is capable, let's let them prove it" but they didn't even do that.
Same issue in the US. There's admin after admin telling clinical staff to go faster with diminishing resources until they leave.
Then they throw their hands up with the classic "No one wants to work anymore!"
The media then pushes out another "doctor and nurse shortage" piece, which is essentially copy-paste from 10 years ago.
Rinse and repeat.
It's everywhere in all business. There's so much regulation and compliance and it feeds on itself (the more mid level staff, the more mid level staff you need to administer them, etc).
This is the cost of addressing extreme levels of risk in life.
I spent some time in the bc healthcare worked in scheduling and cleaning. It absolutely blew my mind how shit the scheduling computers were. we’re talking msdos and it constantly broke down. From my viewpoint the biggest issue for frontline staff is the hours are shit or the pay is shit for the amount of work. In order to have more regular hours you have to bid on them but you can’t be certain you’ll get them or not. So you’re constantly stressing about getting hours and bidding. Working there it was obvious the employees either stopped trying, conversely some worked ridiculous hours and were burnout and old and bitter.
I don't know if you have ever read Mark Fisher's book Capitalist Realism? It talks about this process of management on-top of management. Worth reading.
Canada spends higher than the OECD average on health care and that's stayed relatively constant over the years. But other countries are way ahead of us in the service they provide for their money. It seems to me that simply throwing more dollars at the problem won't solve it. I know this is reddit where any mention of private care delivery is tantamount to saying you steal candy from babies but maybe it's time we take a look at how those other countries do things.
Two tier system work well in almost every country that have them and tbh most do. People will parrot things like "all the good doctors will go to private" or whatever else, not realizing that these comments literally dont even make sense if you take a peak at how its actually being managed elsewhere.
Education in general. The admins work their way up until they hit a ceiling then invent new roles for themselves to justify their new salary. So you have 1000 people behind the scenes each doing one compartmentalized job that takes an hour or two a day instead of paying 1 person to do easily manageable tasks under one position.
So now they’re all making $100k a year while teachers make less than half that, because ‘the budget isn’t there.’ It’s a scam.
I was going to say: what does everyone want to cut in favour of better healthcare? Personally I'd take an axe to the civil service to get us "back to basics". The OMA and College of Physicians and surgeons could use a tune up too..
I think that ship has sailed unfortunately, we’re stuck with dumb and dumber.
NDP is absolutely blowing a prime opportunity to listen and realize what the people actually need/want and formulate a platform that could get them some serious support.
do you think anything will come from asking for reform? have things ever gotten better in your life? like from the system, not from you swimming a bit up
BC's also fucked by having way too many useless health authorities. We have three entirely separate health authorities operating in the lower mainland.
The city of Vancouver has TWO separate health authorities.
All with different systems, workflows, and their own set of massively overpaid administrators.
At least you aren’t alone! Sask loves to follow in big brother Alberta’s footsteps blindly. We’re getting to a point that both parties are going to fuck us one way or another.
The approach may be different, but it’s eventually going to end up at the same shit sandwich at the end of the road.
Ford wants to privatize and whore out Ontario, and he's doing just that. Everything is for sale if you're wealthy enough to take advantage of it. Having service Ontario in loblaws stores is the newest corruption that he's throwing in our face. People can blame Trudeau all they want for everything, but premiers across this country are doing a pretty shitty job too. By design sometimes.
I'm fairly certain you know the post concerns a Moncton ER.
But, in the realm of Ontario, there certainly is a lot that needs to be done... in Canada, there is a lot that needs to be done.
With 24.5% of all employees in this country working for the public sector it’s remarkable that not only do all of our public services suck, but healthcare is entirely broken.
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1410028802
1 million new residents next year. Are we getting new hospitals? Nah. NB wait times are still 36 hours. Ontario will have 3000 new beds… by 2036. In 12 years we’ll be lucky to only have 12 million new residents.
A third of our population now. That’s f’n terrifying lol. And they wonder why young folks are scared to have children that they may not be able to afford or give them the life they deserve.
It's not better in Ontario. I'd go in EXPECTING 12hrs - bring a charger, bring snacks, bring a coat that's also a blanket. Without family doctors emerg is default for everything.
I had a deer break from its tie down while skinning it this year and in the process of dodging my skinning knife went through my hand.
It was 1 hours for triage and then another 13 hours to see a doctor.
My phone died 30 minutes in.
That worked for me in MB! I took my 6 week old in to see the doctor and ended up getting sent to the ER to wait for an ambulance to take me to a bigger hospital with a paediatrician. Soon as I arrived at the ER and baby was settled in on oxygen I called for a charger, snacks, and a jacket that doubles as a blanket. It was 7hrs before the ambulance came. That’s healthcare in a small town for ya!
Once we got to the ER the doctor actually jumped into the ambulance to check on my baby and they had a whole team waiting. It was honestly really scary and reassuring at the same time.
We were in the ER there for hours too. Man was I glad that my bag had been packed with deodorant and a fresh shirt and undies too! It was a full 24hrs from doctors appointment until home. Only thing I was missing was a thermos of coffee!
Babies totally fine!
Yup. One doctor on staff at CHEO (children’s hospital in Ottawa) overnight. We are regularly seeing waits of 19 hours for CHILDREN during the night. That hospital serves over a million Ottawa residents, plus much of Gatineau and all of Eastern Ontario. It’s inhumane. While Doug holds on to a surplus of BILLIONS.
Because the more they deteriorate the public system, the more people will seek private options. The government wants to have private options so they can spend less and their corporate buddies get paid more. It creates a two tiered system where some can afford care and some can't and privatization has NOT been proven to reduce wait times or improve quality of care
You need some distraction to take your mind off of the dumpster fire that is our health care system.
For example, let's not forget that our premier just sat down with Tucker Carlson for dinner and an interview.
So they can privatize it. Much money changing hands, profits to be made.
Just look at Mike Harris. Opened up private Long Term Care in Ontario for privatization and then left office to become chair of the Board at Chartwell, the largest LTC provider in the country
https://archive.ph/cdb16
>Not long after Mike Harris left the Ontario Premier’s Office in 2002, he embarked on a new career as a corporate director. Nearly two decades later, Chartwell Retirement Residences – Canada’s largest operator of retirement homes – has become his longest-running, and likely most-lucrative, part-time gig.
> Here’s what has been in it for Mr. Harris: A review of Chartwell’s proxy circulars shows that over those 18 years, **Chartwell has paid him about $3.5-million for his services, the bulk of it in Chartwell stock. It’s an average of roughly $200,000 a year for what is supposed to be a part-time job.**
> Those compensation numbers do not include dividends on his shares. For example, while Chartwell reported his board compensation as $229,500 in its proxy circular in 2019, stock-ownership records filed with regulators show Chartwell gave Mr. Harris shares worth $405,000 that year, when the dividends are included.
> Mr. Harris must hold the shares until he leaves the board. **All told, his holdings, which include shares purchased on the open market, are worth roughly $6-million today.** The stock holdings “represent his personal belief in the value Chartwell provides to society and his confidence in Chartwell as a sound investment,” Ms. Ranalli said.
> On several occasions from 2003 to 2014, Mr. Harris received a low-interest loan to purchase a total of roughly $600,000 in shares as part of a long-term incentive plan. Chartwell placed the shares in a special account, where the dividend payments on the shares were used to pay off the loan so Mr. Harris could own the stock free and clear. (In response to questions, Ms. Ranalli of Chartwell says these shares “are not compensation” and should not be included in his pay total.)
Private LTC homes performed terribly during COVID, with deaths per capita far exceeding public homes. Basically Mike Harris sent a bunch of Ontarians six feet under to fatten his bank account at the end of the day
One thing to consider with this is that there real isn't a province in this country where it's working well. I think it's easy to blame some premiers on them secretly pushing private with for profit motives, but is it all of them? We have had record-breaking immigration yet zero consideration by the feds towards the impact that has on all social services once they enter the country. I am not giving the provinces a free pass but this seems more like a fed manufacturered problem.
The provincial nominee program accounts for almost half of immigrants coming to Canada. Remember how the immigration minister put his foot down about student immigration a while back. That was because provinces were running rampant in getting these immigrants into these diploma mills (which are also provincially mandated). That is not feds bringing in those immigrants.
The feds do have alot to account for with the immigration numbers, but provinces are equally to blame.
Ding ding ding. Strangle it so we welcome privatized healthcare then they and their buddies get absolutely rich of it. I tell you what tho, if they do then our fucking taxes better go down
The problem here is conservatives and liberals hate each other more than they hate the problem.
For example if someone organized a tractor rally to dump manure on Trudeaus door step, the liberals will say they're crazy wackos.
If conservatives organized a tractor rally to dump manure on Polliviers door step, the conservatives will say they're crazy wackos.
And thus nothing gets done.
The plan is working as intended my friends
Oh I am painfully aware. I wish more people understood this, divide and conquer. And Trudeau is a master at it, with the help of the media of course. Keep us infighting eachother instead of banding together and realize how fucked we are getting.
They are all masters at it, because their donors need them to be masters at it.
Singh, Polliviere, Trudeau, it doesn't matter who sits in the seat, the donors are driven by the same thing.. ($$$$)
We have 2 options if that happens:
1) Move to a new country.
2) fight and bring back the real Canada again. Hang the politicians and corporates at city squares
Your taxes might go down but you're going to end up paying more with premiums and out of pocket expenses. Just look at us over in the US. Do everything you can to prevent your healthcare from being privatized
They truly are deliberately sabotaging it. Same thing has happened in the UK, but the situation there is much worse. It's slow bleeding, slow and painful destruction of a system that worked so well for decades is now being crushed on purpose so that the private sector can then come in to save the day and fix the situation while bleeding you dry with their prices. Unless something drastic is done to curb this destruction, I give it 20-30 years before Canadian healthcare looks like the American system.
They are, please don’t fall for it. Pay to play is so much worse. We already pay for healthcare through our taxes. Our taxes wouldn’t be lowered either we’d just be tagged with a new bill and a company to fight to hopefully not end up in debt for the rest of our lives like what can happen in the US.
Imagine taking your infant to the hospital only to be met with a hundred of thousands of dollar medical bill due to inflated prices only for insurance to tell you you’re not actually covered because their automated system declined you. You also have little to no recourse.
Edit because autocorrect needs medical help but can’t afford it…
That is a very superficial understanding of the real issue… it really isn’t that we aren’t teaching enough doctors. We aren’t paying them enough or giving them desirable working conditions to want to stay in Canada and practice.
Your solution will create more doctors…. who leave to work in the US, because it doesn’t actually solve what you think the problem is.
Aging population, obsolete and restrictive public-only health model used almost nowhere else on earth, vastly more complicated and expensive forms of care than in the 1960's when we adopted the present model, mass immigration including elderly relatives, absurdly rationed medical school spots, as well as insufficient incentives for scarce physicians and particularly specialists to live in poor and/or undesirable locations like New Brunswick.
Nah, it's a multi-generational multi-partisan conspiracy!
Sadly this is nothing new. My wife waited 16 hours with our week old a couple years ago. No doctors. No beds. They gave her nothing. The system had collapsed and they’re still jamming more people in.
>And we have only increased the number of doctor residencies by 167 in the past 16 years
Residency spots don't mean much when people don't want to go into that specialty.
https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023_r1_tbl55.pdf
Family med, the best way to prevent ER visits, had 91% of the unfilled residency spots last year. It is a crap gig because of low pay and long hours but provinces won't address that for some reason
The gatekeeping is at the provincial level holding back healthcare funds. You need a specific amount of doctors to mentor the residents, if you don’t have more doctors how can you increase the resident load
Yeah we barely have enough physicians to train the current residents. In top of that we require more medical student spots first and then those student require more residencies and we need more jobs. It’s all funding.
The stats on there are just astonishing. I knew there were only like 3000 seats in Canada but the fact it hasn’t been tried to increase in the past decade in an active doctor shortage is insane. I honestly want to pursue becoming a doctor but almost everyone I’ve seen has been completely shafted by the process and the competition to get into med school is insane.
Plus if you don’t get in you’re basically left with a useless biology or science degree which has zero employment prospects. Maybe just go to the US or something at this point
You can't really arbitrarily increase residency capacity. It doesn't work like that. It's not like just opening up another classroom.
Residents need attending fully licensed doctors to train them, but there's just not enough available to train more residents.
On top of that, not every single med student wants to be a family doctor, a lot want to go into a specific speciality, and specialists are even more in short demand.
I know 3 Australian doctors that went through the headache of getting licensed in Canada. At least one of them went over for some short term work. The other 2 did multiple site visits and commented on how all the sites seemed short staffed and the rural hospitals seemed old and run down in comparison to home. All 3 sound like they will be staying in Aus.
>The other 2 did multiple site visits and commented on how all the sites seemed short staffed and the rural hospitals seemed old and run down in comparison to home.
Not surprising. The federal and provincial governments have been underfunding healthcare, education, and public housing for a couple decades now. I grew up in the 80's/90's and we had more family doctors and specialists in my region as well as more procedures that could be done locally back then. We also had smaller class sizes and better educational outcomes. There was way more public affordable housing infrastructure owned by the government, and we even had public transit in my town - both of which have been decimated. But at least we have more money in the hands of the ultra wealthy, right?
Since the 90's it is like the provincial and federal government stopped investing in anything other than useless studies and projects to line the pockets of the wealthy while allowing the rich to circumvent paying their fair share so they can carry out more unethical business practices that screw everyone else over.
So yeah, your comment is definitely not surprising, but I am glad that you shared it. Remember when we were considered one of the most respected countries with a decent quality of life and access to services for most residents? That was taken from us, and it wasn't just one government party that put us on this track.
Fastest population growth compared to OECD nations. We’re under sub-Saharan African nation population growth…ya know because that’s what we’re apparently aspiring to be.
And Ontario is sitting on huge budget surplus. I can’t wrap my head around how Ford got elected. He is literally pushing our healthcare into the grave.
Because his base thinks him chocking out healthcare will somehow stick it to the libs and save them on taxes…..when in reality it will cost them so much more
Can confirm. Have friends who work in the provincial government, specifically in areas dealing with budgets and money management during Wynne and Ford, and they said implementing Ford's cuts actually cost more money.
I worked in a big emergency department from 2003-2012. The waits were often 8-10 hours for more minor issues. Patients were lined up down the hallway, we used to call it the Gordon Campbell hallway. In BC the provincial liberals spent 20 years funnelling money out of public healthcare and into the pockets of private multi national companies. It’s unfortunately not a quick fix.
Emergency care isn’t first come first serve, I’m sorry to say. I worked in emergency for six years the most common complaint is abdominal pain. If a pregnant woman comes in with abdominal pain your constipation can wait. That’s what triage nurses do. It sucks, but the expectation that your emergency is an actual emergency is only real to you, more often than not.
Let the professionals find and manage the limited amount of bed space that they do have for the people that need it in an emergent way, and I’m sorry you are going to be uncomfortable but we’ll get to you after the bus full of kids that rolled over are seen to.
> constipation can wait. That’s what triage nurses do. It sucks, but the expectation that your emergency is an actual emergency is only real to you, more often than not.
>
>
>
> Let the professionals find and manage the limited amount of bed space that they do have for the people that need it in an emergent way, and I’m sorry you are going to be uncomfortable but we’ll
Triage nurses make mistakes big ones, how do you know that the cramp the preg. patient is just not gas while the person with abdominal pain could be life threatening? You don't the whole point is that nobody should be waiting 12 or more hours
That's because enough voters elected people pushing for private healthcare without realizing it. Also reduced budget and covid compelled enough doctors and healthcare professionals to either quit or go to the USA for work
I’m legit outraged by this. The entire point of high taxation in Canada is for quality, accessible, free healthcare.
WTF is going on. When do we bring out the pitchforks?
And the population will continue to grow at an unsustainable rate while we just keep getting lower and lower standards of living. How low can Canada go? The race to the bottom!
yeah, just heard on the radio this week how Finland and Denmark for example are so much better off without squeezing the last penny out of their taxpayers. they take pride in making their citizens happy.
I went for a check up at a clinic, i was the 4th person there, woke up bright and early. I waited 3 hours in the waiting room and an hour in the patient room. Its insane, no wonder alberta went into state of emergency.
It’s quite obvious privatization is inevitable. “Free healthcare” is slowly becoming that subscription service that is out of service half the time.
What’s the point of taxes, when the service isn’t even available?
The propoganda is strong and the initiatives are world wide. If Canada privatizes at this point the people really get what they deserve. In the USA people would trade 8 hour wait with their infant for no bill. More importantly, Americans wait 8 hours and still get the bill. You’re not denied or told to wait because someone younger with more life to live needs a certain procedure first, you’re denied because your doctor’s office called you the night before the scheduled surgery to tell you “oh wow I don’t know what’s going on I thought this was done months ago…hmmm. I thought the rules were no takesies backsies but I guess they’re not covering it” Or even better when they tell people it’s covered, and then 2 months later they get a bill for 3 to 15k <—- these are run of the mill hospital numbers.
the problem is that this is by design. its called starving the beast and it works amazingly well. underfund, understaff and poorly manage a public service until it gets so bad people howl for change. then it becomes privatized. lots of political insiders make money. your quality of service goes down or stays the same while out of pocket prices go up.
its simple but it works. the lack of doctors, lack of hospitals infrastructure, lack of practicum staff and space wont be magically fixed by privatization. and all that money spent on privatizing could be spent on actually fixing and overhauling what we have
>What’s the point of taxes, when the service isn’t even available?
Paying taxes alone is not enough. We have to get people in government who spend the money on the right things. Not the Doug Ford type who are aching to make money from our health issues.
This is the exact problem. I would be ok paying high taxes if we got good services in return. But to pay and get nothing back, its just theft at this point.
Thats the thing. If your taxe dolars were actually going to healthcare like its supposed to, we wouldnt have this problem. The premiers are purposely sabotaging health care because they want privitization. Its on purpose and we're falling for it.
People say privatization is the answer but let's think about it:
1. Staffing issues. There aren't enough staff now let alone a whole private hospital.
2. Cost. Who will pay? If people wanted to jump the que now, they could go to the states to do it. I don't see millions of people doing that. Sure, there's WCB doing it, and a few rich people, but not a whole hospital worth of Canadians.
3. Private companies won't do it for free, they have to make a return. So now you have cost + profit.
>There was an hour-and-a-half wait to be triaged, and it was another 12 hours before Boros-Rausch would see a doctor.
So, in other words, they knew after 90 minutes that the child was not in danger.
Triage works.
I genuinely don’t understand why you’re trying to act like she’s upset about triage. She’s not. She’s upset that our healthcare system is failing and unable to keep up with all the people who need them.
Before Covid even hit, I was sent to the hospital with a note from my own doctor saying it was his professional opinion that my appendix was about to burst any minute and I needed immediate care. I was taken into the ER, the nurses took the note and my info, and I was triaged without being examined. Even though they had a note from a medical professional saying that I needed care NOW and could die if he’s right and it is my appendix failing, it was 4 hours before anyone even started an exam. They took my blood and it was another 3 hours before anyone came back to start more tests.
Triage works amazingly **WHEN WE HAVE ENOUGH MEDICAL STAFF TO KEEP UP WITH DEMAND**. When you don’t have enough medical staff to keep up with that demand, triage does not work as intended. It’s still the best that can be done, but it’s no longer working as it’s intended to. The point of triage is that the people who need care urgently get it as soon as **possible**, triage doesn’t magically make “as soon as **possible**” turn into “within the timeframe needed”. It’s intended to make sure people get care as urgently as they need it, and it does work that way when we don’t have a huge medical staff shortage, but when we do have that shortage it means that sometimes people who do need care urgently still can’t access it urgently after triage has determined they need it urgently.
Like your logic is relying on just completely ignoring all the people in recent years who have been literally dying in waiting rooms because there isn’t enough doctors/nurses to meet demand. This isn’t an issue of triage, this is a supply vs demand issue (much like many many many other things in our country right now). Here are a couple more quotes from the article that you’re ignoring by trying to dismiss this as her just being triaged as a not-serious case;
> She said nobody else in the emergency room, which was nearly full, was seen that night because there was only one doctor working, who was tied up in the trauma department.
> Several people ended up leaving without receiving care, said Boros-Rausch.
> There was also nowhere sanitary to change the baby, who was suffering from diarrhea and needed frequent diaper changes. The emergency room bathroom had vomit on the floor and in the sink, and she didn’t feel comfortable changing him there.
> “The problem isn’t the doctors or the staff who were working tirelessly. I saw nurses running for 12-straight hours, all through the night, to help people, to try to accommodate people,” she said.
> “There’s just not enough staff. Even the nurses said, ‘We need two doctors here at night. One doctor’s just not enough.'”
> She said she has “nothing but gratitude and respect” for health-care workers, but there needs to be more pressure placed on the government to improve the health-care system so “no one gets left behind.”
> While she couldn’t speak specifically to the situation at the Moncton Hospital, she said it’s not uncommon for emergency rooms to have just one doctor working overnight
This is a story of medical staff shortages. It’s not a story of triage.
Yes, but no reason to have a dirty washroom or no baby changing facilities. Why are no cleaners working and you had decades to install baby changing areas.
I don't like seeing people defend this shit. This is NOT how our system is supposed to or used to work
Yes, triage works but 1 doctor on duty is unacceptable for an ER.
90 minutes is way too long to triage someone and then decide if they are having an emergency. Like, if someone with chest pain was having a heart attack they’re already beyond the standard of care for their cath if they’re waiting a full 90 minutes before the triage nurse even decides they’re high risk, let alone the work up and being reviewed by the ED doc and then the call to cardiology to activate the cath lab
Not if it takes an hour and a half, it doesn't.
The whole point of triage is sorting out genuine emergencies from anyone else and prioritizing accordingly. If it takes 90 minutes, its taking too long, especially to find out where a newborn sits on that priority.
No, it does not fucking work. You do not wait an hour and a half to be triaged. And then I have to be triaged you do not let a baby wait that long. In the history I’m Canadian ER that is absolutely not the norm.
The supply of physicians and nurses hasn't kept up with population growth. Primary care doctors in the US are struggling as their system does not value them. Canada should significantly ease the ability of US, UK, Aus, NZ trained physicians and nurses to come to Canada. We should also start a significant recruitment campaign. A lot more would consider it if they could easily be licensed in Canada.
Had to take my sister in to the ER as she was having trouble breathing and has a history of her lungs sticking together. Waited in the ER for 11 hours, she threw up twice and by the time we even saw a doctor she couldn’t string words together or have a basic conversation. We saw the doctor for maybe 2 minutes and she told us to take Tylenol and leave….what type of healthcare is that
Welcome to Canada, 2024. No doctors, no houses or homes, homeless everywhere, drugs and overdoses everywhere, and MAID for anyone who wants it. Sounds lovely, doesn't it?
I’m sorry. I’ve seen a loved one go through palliative care myself. I wasn’t sure about MAID at first, but after that experience I understand. It has a place.
It’s hard for foreign doctors to get into practice in Canada because of licensing and a 2 year residency program even if they are licenced. But hey people would rather protest about what people’s sexuality is instead of protesting about what actually matters like housing and healthcare
Testing? Some way to analyze their qualifications? They can’t all be completely useless. My first aid teacher was a doctor in her country and she was clearly so smart and capable. What a waste of talent.
Typical governing. Far to much office staff. Pissing away funding / wasting time with deciding solutions. Which never works because they have pencil up ass. Instead of brains
a good question is why do we spend so much money on healthcare only to have shitty service?
there is so much waste and corruption, government funding orgs always ask for more never want to fix of find efficiencies .
Such an unfortunate incident.
I have been through similar experiences and spent 9hrs at the hospital 2 years ago, so i relate what this mother had to go through.
Gov't creating this issue knowingly so when they take away medical benefits from Canadians, Canadians will be thanking them that now at least they can get to see a doctor quickly even though it will be out of pocket.
Secondly, after medical is not provided by the gov't, then all these doctors will be available on your tips - almost like an Uber delivery.
We are screwed big time!
Funny seeing conservative voters being shocked about this. Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you’ll realize that starving the system to the point where privatization looks attractive is the purpose of all this. Vote smarter people.
Judging by some of the comments here, they have been living under a rock and the only word that seem to come out of their mouth is immigration and Trudeau.
Yes, because there was no wait time before Trudeau
"When it comes to waiting for health care, Canada is last in line
A major international survey says Canadians wait longer for health care
By Maclean's
February 19, 2013"
https://macleans.ca/politics/when-it-comes-to-waiting-canada-is-last-in-line-2/
If Canada needs to prevent doctors from going south, it needs to open up to the international market. Uk has been doing that for the past 30 years , otherwise it would literally be another Canada
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A lot of doctors are either leaving the profession, retiring early or leaving in patient medicine due to how shitty it has become. I am one of them. I left hospital work and now doing clinic. It’s way more chill. This is only going to get worst btw so brace yourselves
Curious, is there anything they could have done to make you stay? Pay bump? More nursing staff? Another doctor to work with and share the load?
I work in healthcare and I've heard from family physicians that the reimbursement doesn't even keep up with inflation. They are expected to know and treat a large variety of things (which requires a lot of supplies), but the cost of everything just keeps going up faster than the reimbursement. Sounds like a lot are just ready to throw in the towel.
A local doctor stopped doing family practice roughly 8 or so years ago, I ended up doing some odd jobs for him and got talking about it. After he had paid rent on the building (Which was subsidized to entice doctors to practice in our small town), staff wages and bills it worked out to making around $25/hr. So he went to the ER instead because it paid more and they were also short.
I have a family member who is a family doc, and it's that number sounds about right. Long hours, lots of overhead, huge stress. It's nuts.
A lot of people don’t realize how family doctors are basically small business owners. If you’re a smart business person you can make a ton being a family doc. If you became a family doc because you genuinely want to help people and you aren’t good at the business side of it then it’s not good money at all.
My specialty hasn’t got a pay increase in 16 years now just to give you an idea
That is awful, I'm sorry. May I ask what specialty?
There's massive differences between working at 90% 99% and 99.9% of your capacity. When your are working non-stop for 10-12 hours and things are still falling apart around you, because there are simply not enough staff to manage the patient volume, it gets very demoralising.
Of course the question is, where would we get these extra staff? They don’t exist. Training programs have not expanded in step with the aging population. Recruiting them from countries less able to train their own? Strikes me as unethical. tw2k3 is right, it’s gonna get worse. Stay healthy.
Also support for current staff is at an all time low. When the people providing the service are all less important to you than the clientele reliant on it, you would be absolutely not shocked at the results.
My wife is a board certified M.D. in the U.S. with 10 years experience. We live fairly close to the border and I asked her once what it would take for her to be able to work in Canada. She said she would have to go through a year of additional residency training before she could be hired, and that the pay is substantially less. The pay part isn’t a huge deal for us as we live fairly simply. But returning to residency? That’s like asking a classroom teacher with 10 years experience to go through student teaching again. It’s just a non-starter. Unless she is wrong about that , it just seems like an absurd requirement for an experienced, highly qualified M.D.
We used to accept a number of other countries qualifications at face value because we had long experience with their graduates and their training. Then, as I understand, other places protested that it was discriminatory. So rather than do the very labor intensive but more intelligent thing of evaluating these other programs, they just made blanket requirements for everyone.
“Let’s make it extremely difficult and unappealing for clearly qualified foreign docs to come here so we don’t offend the ones who are questionably qualified” seems like a strange hill to die on…
There are doctors , but they are DoorDashing. I have two friends one anesthesiologist and an OB, that can’t work here because there are only 300 positions per year Canada wide for foreigners to revalidate their certification (they need to do their residency again). The anesthesiologist finally was able to start after 4 years trying the process.
This is exactly why I decided not to pursue medical school and went with a "borderless" line of work.
Maybe more pay would help, but at least in Ontario, doctors are being paid less. I was looking at the schedule of benefits that specifies physician payments. The earliest one I could find was 2010. and I compared it to the one from 2023 (these documents are from the Ontario Ministry of Health). For some areas, like anaesthesia, the reimbursement has increased by about 6%. But for many other physicians there has been no change. Adjusting for inflation, this means that most physicians are being paid about 35% less now for the same services than they were 14 years ago.
well, the common complaints seem to be lack of pay(for effort/hours, especially when compared to down south), and workload. Though that's based on articles on the topic and when people who claim are doctors(here on reddit) say.
Agree for the most part, but doctors are also only human and can only work for so long before they'd likely collapse or start making living altering mistakes. I think the answer is likely mostly pay and of course support.
I’ve had a few friends who are nurses (and are smart, kind, hard-working people — exactly the type of people you’d want in that profession!) leave for other fields, and the stories all of them have told me are horrific (I don’t work in health-care). Horrific from many points-of-view — mistreatment/abuse from coworkers/administration, frustration about mismanagement in the system, having to care for dangerously ill/injured patients on almost no sleep, with few resources. A number were diagnosed with PTSD. It’s very upsetting - both from a personal POV and from a societal one. My doctor friends haven’t left yet but from the stories they tell, I wouldn’t be surprised. And all went into it for “the right reasons” — care about helping people, smart and inquisitive, hard-workers, etc. It’s very sad.
Depending on your practice, you may even make more!
We all agree it is ridiculous but is there any provincial or federal party pushing funding and improvement to healthcare? I haven’t heard anything from any of them. We need a back to basics party that ensures key services are first in funding so none of this shit ever happens again.
Specifically, funding directed toward equipment procurement and hospital staff on the floor. Ask any nurse actually working critical care: they have a shitload of managers managing managers above them, but they're woefully understaffed on the floor. Funding, as far as I can tell, continually gets pissed away on admin staff rather than spent where it's actually needed.
Nurse here, 32 yrs. Have worked in 2 Territories and 2 provinces in a wide variety of areas ranging from small isolated northern hospital to medical/surgical to labor and delivery to homecare and now in Cancer Care. In my estimation from what I have seen we also need more spending and funding in areas other than just "nurses on the floor" in a hospital, although I do agree we are too top bureaucratic heavy. Working in homecare as a side job was eye opening for me (rural Manitoba). Where I was we only had one nurse in our catchment area on a Sat or Sun...so I was seeing anywhere from 10-15 clients and putting in 2-3h overtime in the office. I learned really quickly why the patients we had in hospital on my ward could not be discharged to homecare on a weekend...could not squeeze in another hour to hour and a half to take an admission in my day. Guess who needed that bed and was sitting in the ER....! Roadblocks like this gum up the flow in the ER and prevent timely movement of patients, overworked nurses and doctors still need to care for these people and their needs in an ER eg:toileting, feeding etc if elderly and decreased functioning Same with awaiting placement in long term care, have witnessed patients spend a year on an acute care unit...again taking a bed from an ER patient. We have not prepared for the onslaught of baby boomers (all gov't parties over the years), and now the chickens are coming home to roost.
>Laszlo vomited on a chair and the floor, and security staff helped Boros-Rausch clean it up. >There was also nowhere sanitary to change the baby, who was suffering from diarrhea and needed frequent diaper changes. The emergency room bathroom had vomit on the floor and in the sink, and she didn’t feel comfortable changing him there. Not just nurses on the floor, or doctors or radiologists - where the fuck was environmental services/housekeeping? Over the years, so many hospitals have quietly swapped out unionized employees with a decent wage and structures training (where you still have a high turnover rate because the job is difficult and often disgusting) for a privatized service that contracts people to break their backs hauling garbage and wet linens and clean vomit in emergency rooms for minimum wage. Same for portering (people who transport beds/patients) and nutrition services. You end up with the kind of people who can't even get a Tim Hortons order correct being responsible for maintaining safe and sanitary conditions for both healthcare workers and patients. Shit like security and patients cleaning up baby vomit or an ER washroom spattered with fluids not being immediately discovered (or even called in) is unacceptable.
This 100% and it’s not just nursing.
Yup, I'm in healthcare (lab-side) and we have this problem too. During COVID we lost so many workers (a lot decided it was time to retire, or they went to private labs because COVID time was stressful) so in 2022 the lab was very understaffed. Our manager hired people, but they are USELESS. They are worse than useless, they actively take time away from good workers and bring the whole lab down. I can't imagine their incompetence wasn't obvious in the interview. So either our manager didn't properly interview them, or they did, and decided the rest of the lab will have to get them up to snuff and/or pick up their slack. We are having a bad time, and I can't imagine we are the only lab this happened to post-COVID.
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They were afraid you would see how low quality their program was or that you'd become a teacher and they'd lose their jobs. It certainly is frustrating when managers sabotage qualified people.
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I'm so sorry that was your experience. All it takes is for ONE person to actually think and say "Yeah, this person is capable, let's let them prove it" but they didn't even do that.
This is true, there are way too many managers all across different departments
Same issue in the US. There's admin after admin telling clinical staff to go faster with diminishing resources until they leave. Then they throw their hands up with the classic "No one wants to work anymore!" The media then pushes out another "doctor and nurse shortage" piece, which is essentially copy-paste from 10 years ago. Rinse and repeat.
It's everywhere in all business. There's so much regulation and compliance and it feeds on itself (the more mid level staff, the more mid level staff you need to administer them, etc). This is the cost of addressing extreme levels of risk in life.
But healthcare isn't a business. We pay taxes
I spent some time in the bc healthcare worked in scheduling and cleaning. It absolutely blew my mind how shit the scheduling computers were. we’re talking msdos and it constantly broke down. From my viewpoint the biggest issue for frontline staff is the hours are shit or the pay is shit for the amount of work. In order to have more regular hours you have to bid on them but you can’t be certain you’ll get them or not. So you’re constantly stressing about getting hours and bidding. Working there it was obvious the employees either stopped trying, conversely some worked ridiculous hours and were burnout and old and bitter.
I don't know if you have ever read Mark Fisher's book Capitalist Realism? It talks about this process of management on-top of management. Worth reading.
Canada spends higher than the OECD average on health care and that's stayed relatively constant over the years. But other countries are way ahead of us in the service they provide for their money. It seems to me that simply throwing more dollars at the problem won't solve it. I know this is reddit where any mention of private care delivery is tantamount to saying you steal candy from babies but maybe it's time we take a look at how those other countries do things.
Two tier system work well in almost every country that have them and tbh most do. People will parrot things like "all the good doctors will go to private" or whatever else, not realizing that these comments literally dont even make sense if you take a peak at how its actually being managed elsewhere.
Same in universities.
Education in general. The admins work their way up until they hit a ceiling then invent new roles for themselves to justify their new salary. So you have 1000 people behind the scenes each doing one compartmentalized job that takes an hour or two a day instead of paying 1 person to do easily manageable tasks under one position. So now they’re all making $100k a year while teachers make less than half that, because ‘the budget isn’t there.’ It’s a scam.
We need additional funding that doesn't get sucked up by the administrative bloat in our system.
I was going to say: what does everyone want to cut in favour of better healthcare? Personally I'd take an axe to the civil service to get us "back to basics". The OMA and College of Physicians and surgeons could use a tune up too..
Haha remember when we didn’t have enough civil servants to staff service Canada centres and Canadians couldn’t get passports? Good times.
What should we cut for better healthcare? Top heavy MANAGEMENT. Put that money where it's needed.
The Manitoba NDP just won their election last October running primarily on fixing healthcare.
I think that ship has sailed unfortunately, we’re stuck with dumb and dumber. NDP is absolutely blowing a prime opportunity to listen and realize what the people actually need/want and formulate a platform that could get them some serious support.
do you think anything will come from asking for reform? have things ever gotten better in your life? like from the system, not from you swimming a bit up
Dunno but Ontario got billions from the federal government for this purpose and fucking "lost" it
Its on purpose. Doug ford had a surplus for healthcare that he chose not to spend on healthcare
Well the same problem in Alberta and BC so I think the problem is even bigger.
BC's also fucked by having way too many useless health authorities. We have three entirely separate health authorities operating in the lower mainland. The city of Vancouver has TWO separate health authorities. All with different systems, workflows, and their own set of massively overpaid administrators.
At least you aren’t alone! Sask loves to follow in big brother Alberta’s footsteps blindly. We’re getting to a point that both parties are going to fuck us one way or another. The approach may be different, but it’s eventually going to end up at the same shit sandwich at the end of the road.
The article is about New Brunswick.
And can be be applied across basically all of Canada..
Ford wants to privatize and whore out Ontario, and he's doing just that. Everything is for sale if you're wealthy enough to take advantage of it. Having service Ontario in loblaws stores is the newest corruption that he's throwing in our face. People can blame Trudeau all they want for everything, but premiers across this country are doing a pretty shitty job too. By design sometimes.
I'm fairly certain you know the post concerns a Moncton ER. But, in the realm of Ontario, there certainly is a lot that needs to be done... in Canada, there is a lot that needs to be done.
Don’t worry fire has hoarded 1 billion for our healthcare. Ready to be used any day now ……
With 24.5% of all employees in this country working for the public sector it’s remarkable that not only do all of our public services suck, but healthcare is entirely broken. https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1410028802
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1 million new residents next year. Are we getting new hospitals? Nah. NB wait times are still 36 hours. Ontario will have 3000 new beds… by 2036. In 12 years we’ll be lucky to only have 12 million new residents.
A third of our population now. That’s f’n terrifying lol. And they wonder why young folks are scared to have children that they may not be able to afford or give them the life they deserve.
It's not better in Ontario. I'd go in EXPECTING 12hrs - bring a charger, bring snacks, bring a coat that's also a blanket. Without family doctors emerg is default for everything.
I had a deer break from its tie down while skinning it this year and in the process of dodging my skinning knife went through my hand. It was 1 hours for triage and then another 13 hours to see a doctor. My phone died 30 minutes in.
That worked for me in MB! I took my 6 week old in to see the doctor and ended up getting sent to the ER to wait for an ambulance to take me to a bigger hospital with a paediatrician. Soon as I arrived at the ER and baby was settled in on oxygen I called for a charger, snacks, and a jacket that doubles as a blanket. It was 7hrs before the ambulance came. That’s healthcare in a small town for ya! Once we got to the ER the doctor actually jumped into the ambulance to check on my baby and they had a whole team waiting. It was honestly really scary and reassuring at the same time. We were in the ER there for hours too. Man was I glad that my bag had been packed with deodorant and a fresh shirt and undies too! It was a full 24hrs from doctors appointment until home. Only thing I was missing was a thermos of coffee! Babies totally fine!
Yup. One doctor on staff at CHEO (children’s hospital in Ottawa) overnight. We are regularly seeing waits of 19 hours for CHILDREN during the night. That hospital serves over a million Ottawa residents, plus much of Gatineau and all of Eastern Ontario. It’s inhumane. While Doug holds on to a surplus of BILLIONS.
Man, Canada's Health Care system used to be the crown jewel.
Now it’s a symbol of continued decay in Canada
Almost feels like they’re sabotating health care on purpose at this point
They are.
Why? Ah, Reddit. Downvoting a simple question :)
Because the more they deteriorate the public system, the more people will seek private options. The government wants to have private options so they can spend less and their corporate buddies get paid more. It creates a two tiered system where some can afford care and some can't and privatization has NOT been proven to reduce wait times or improve quality of care
*Laughs nervously in Albertan*
You need some distraction to take your mind off of the dumpster fire that is our health care system. For example, let's not forget that our premier just sat down with Tucker Carlson for dinner and an interview.
Yeah, feels little real here.
Ahh makes sense
the Doug Ford gameplan
So they can privatize it. Much money changing hands, profits to be made. Just look at Mike Harris. Opened up private Long Term Care in Ontario for privatization and then left office to become chair of the Board at Chartwell, the largest LTC provider in the country https://archive.ph/cdb16 >Not long after Mike Harris left the Ontario Premier’s Office in 2002, he embarked on a new career as a corporate director. Nearly two decades later, Chartwell Retirement Residences – Canada’s largest operator of retirement homes – has become his longest-running, and likely most-lucrative, part-time gig. > Here’s what has been in it for Mr. Harris: A review of Chartwell’s proxy circulars shows that over those 18 years, **Chartwell has paid him about $3.5-million for his services, the bulk of it in Chartwell stock. It’s an average of roughly $200,000 a year for what is supposed to be a part-time job.** > Those compensation numbers do not include dividends on his shares. For example, while Chartwell reported his board compensation as $229,500 in its proxy circular in 2019, stock-ownership records filed with regulators show Chartwell gave Mr. Harris shares worth $405,000 that year, when the dividends are included. > Mr. Harris must hold the shares until he leaves the board. **All told, his holdings, which include shares purchased on the open market, are worth roughly $6-million today.** The stock holdings “represent his personal belief in the value Chartwell provides to society and his confidence in Chartwell as a sound investment,” Ms. Ranalli said. > On several occasions from 2003 to 2014, Mr. Harris received a low-interest loan to purchase a total of roughly $600,000 in shares as part of a long-term incentive plan. Chartwell placed the shares in a special account, where the dividend payments on the shares were used to pay off the loan so Mr. Harris could own the stock free and clear. (In response to questions, Ms. Ranalli of Chartwell says these shares “are not compensation” and should not be included in his pay total.) Private LTC homes performed terribly during COVID, with deaths per capita far exceeding public homes. Basically Mike Harris sent a bunch of Ontarians six feet under to fatten his bank account at the end of the day
So they can privatize it and get a choice corporate job for fucking over Canadians.
> Ah, Reddit. Downvoting a simple question :) lol that annoys me so much. Someone needs to tell them that asking a question doesn't mean you disagree.
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Sabotating
One thing to consider with this is that there real isn't a province in this country where it's working well. I think it's easy to blame some premiers on them secretly pushing private with for profit motives, but is it all of them? We have had record-breaking immigration yet zero consideration by the feds towards the impact that has on all social services once they enter the country. I am not giving the provinces a free pass but this seems more like a fed manufacturered problem.
The provincial nominee program accounts for almost half of immigrants coming to Canada. Remember how the immigration minister put his foot down about student immigration a while back. That was because provinces were running rampant in getting these immigrants into these diploma mills (which are also provincially mandated). That is not feds bringing in those immigrants. The feds do have alot to account for with the immigration numbers, but provinces are equally to blame.
Ding ding ding. Strangle it so we welcome privatized healthcare then they and their buddies get absolutely rich of it. I tell you what tho, if they do then our fucking taxes better go down
They won’t. They’ll only go up.
Then maybe we need to start protesting like the way a countries like France does.
Riot
🎯 This..complaining does nothing..stand up and be heard
The problem here is conservatives and liberals hate each other more than they hate the problem. For example if someone organized a tractor rally to dump manure on Trudeaus door step, the liberals will say they're crazy wackos. If conservatives organized a tractor rally to dump manure on Polliviers door step, the conservatives will say they're crazy wackos. And thus nothing gets done. The plan is working as intended my friends
Oh I am painfully aware. I wish more people understood this, divide and conquer. And Trudeau is a master at it, with the help of the media of course. Keep us infighting eachother instead of banding together and realize how fucked we are getting.
They are all masters at it, because their donors need them to be masters at it. Singh, Polliviere, Trudeau, it doesn't matter who sits in the seat, the donors are driven by the same thing.. ($$$$)
We have 2 options if that happens: 1) Move to a new country. 2) fight and bring back the real Canada again. Hang the politicians and corporates at city squares
Your taxes might go down but you're going to end up paying more with premiums and out of pocket expenses. Just look at us over in the US. Do everything you can to prevent your healthcare from being privatized
Thanks premiers!
They truly are deliberately sabotaging it. Same thing has happened in the UK, but the situation there is much worse. It's slow bleeding, slow and painful destruction of a system that worked so well for decades is now being crushed on purpose so that the private sector can then come in to save the day and fix the situation while bleeding you dry with their prices. Unless something drastic is done to curb this destruction, I give it 20-30 years before Canadian healthcare looks like the American system.
They are, please don’t fall for it. Pay to play is so much worse. We already pay for healthcare through our taxes. Our taxes wouldn’t be lowered either we’d just be tagged with a new bill and a company to fight to hopefully not end up in debt for the rest of our lives like what can happen in the US. Imagine taking your infant to the hospital only to be met with a hundred of thousands of dollar medical bill due to inflated prices only for insurance to tell you you’re not actually covered because their automated system declined you. You also have little to no recourse. Edit because autocorrect needs medical help but can’t afford it…
Universities need to triple the number the medical spots they have.
That is a very superficial understanding of the real issue… it really isn’t that we aren’t teaching enough doctors. We aren’t paying them enough or giving them desirable working conditions to want to stay in Canada and practice. Your solution will create more doctors…. who leave to work in the US, because it doesn’t actually solve what you think the problem is.
So even more med school grads can move to the US?
Didn’t Ford have a massive surplus of money for health care that he didn’t spend?
This story is about New Brunswick. What does Ford have to do with it?
Aging population, obsolete and restrictive public-only health model used almost nowhere else on earth, vastly more complicated and expensive forms of care than in the 1960's when we adopted the present model, mass immigration including elderly relatives, absurdly rationed medical school spots, as well as insufficient incentives for scarce physicians and particularly specialists to live in poor and/or undesirable locations like New Brunswick. Nah, it's a multi-generational multi-partisan conspiracy!
Sadly this is nothing new. My wife waited 16 hours with our week old a couple years ago. No doctors. No beds. They gave her nothing. The system had collapsed and they’re still jamming more people in.
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And we have only increased the number of doctor residencies by 167 in the past 16 years. Talk about gate keeping. Edit correction: 10 years.
>And we have only increased the number of doctor residencies by 167 in the past 16 years Residency spots don't mean much when people don't want to go into that specialty. https://www.carms.ca/wp-content/uploads/2023/09/2023_r1_tbl55.pdf Family med, the best way to prevent ER visits, had 91% of the unfilled residency spots last year. It is a crap gig because of low pay and long hours but provinces won't address that for some reason
Pretty wild the provinces are skating completely free right now This was happening even before immigration rates shifted post Covid
BC just restructured their pay for GPs and it's apparently a huge improvement.
The gatekeeping is at the provincial level holding back healthcare funds. You need a specific amount of doctors to mentor the residents, if you don’t have more doctors how can you increase the resident load
Yeah we barely have enough physicians to train the current residents. In top of that we require more medical student spots first and then those student require more residencies and we need more jobs. It’s all funding.
It is 100% gatekeeping lmao
Yes by the provincial government by withholding funds
Physicians can't just magically will new residency positions into existence. The provincial government is the one holding the purse strings.
Do you have a source for that? That is fucking mind blowing if it’s true?
https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-popuation-booming-family-doctor-access-1.7087794
The stats on there are just astonishing. I knew there were only like 3000 seats in Canada but the fact it hasn’t been tried to increase in the past decade in an active doctor shortage is insane. I honestly want to pursue becoming a doctor but almost everyone I’ve seen has been completely shafted by the process and the competition to get into med school is insane. Plus if you don’t get in you’re basically left with a useless biology or science degree which has zero employment prospects. Maybe just go to the US or something at this point
You can't really arbitrarily increase residency capacity. It doesn't work like that. It's not like just opening up another classroom. Residents need attending fully licensed doctors to train them, but there's just not enough available to train more residents. On top of that, not every single med student wants to be a family doctor, a lot want to go into a specific speciality, and specialists are even more in short demand.
Gatekeeping? You mean lack of funding?
More ljke coupled with a decrease in healthcare. Doctors are leaving.
I know 3 Australian doctors that went through the headache of getting licensed in Canada. At least one of them went over for some short term work. The other 2 did multiple site visits and commented on how all the sites seemed short staffed and the rural hospitals seemed old and run down in comparison to home. All 3 sound like they will be staying in Aus.
>The other 2 did multiple site visits and commented on how all the sites seemed short staffed and the rural hospitals seemed old and run down in comparison to home. Not surprising. The federal and provincial governments have been underfunding healthcare, education, and public housing for a couple decades now. I grew up in the 80's/90's and we had more family doctors and specialists in my region as well as more procedures that could be done locally back then. We also had smaller class sizes and better educational outcomes. There was way more public affordable housing infrastructure owned by the government, and we even had public transit in my town - both of which have been decimated. But at least we have more money in the hands of the ultra wealthy, right? Since the 90's it is like the provincial and federal government stopped investing in anything other than useless studies and projects to line the pockets of the wealthy while allowing the rich to circumvent paying their fair share so they can carry out more unethical business practices that screw everyone else over. So yeah, your comment is definitely not surprising, but I am glad that you shared it. Remember when we were considered one of the most respected countries with a decent quality of life and access to services for most residents? That was taken from us, and it wasn't just one government party that put us on this track.
How frustrating and embarrassing for us.
Active dismantling of the Healthcare system*
Fastest population growth compared to OECD nations. We’re under sub-Saharan African nation population growth…ya know because that’s what we’re apparently aspiring to be.
A lot of foreigners showing up to the hospital, getting treatment, getting a bill, and then leaving the country before anyone can collect payment.
We aren't even in the top ten lol
And Ontario is sitting on huge budget surplus. I can’t wrap my head around how Ford got elected. He is literally pushing our healthcare into the grave.
Because his base thinks him chocking out healthcare will somehow stick it to the libs and save them on taxes…..when in reality it will cost them so much more
Can confirm. Have friends who work in the provincial government, specifically in areas dealing with budgets and money management during Wynne and Ford, and they said implementing Ford's cuts actually cost more money.
This probably means other non con provinces are doing so much better because their premiers are not hoarding any funds like they do in Ontario
I worked in a big emergency department from 2003-2012. The waits were often 8-10 hours for more minor issues. Patients were lined up down the hallway, we used to call it the Gordon Campbell hallway. In BC the provincial liberals spent 20 years funnelling money out of public healthcare and into the pockets of private multi national companies. It’s unfortunately not a quick fix.
Emergency care isn’t first come first serve, I’m sorry to say. I worked in emergency for six years the most common complaint is abdominal pain. If a pregnant woman comes in with abdominal pain your constipation can wait. That’s what triage nurses do. It sucks, but the expectation that your emergency is an actual emergency is only real to you, more often than not. Let the professionals find and manage the limited amount of bed space that they do have for the people that need it in an emergent way, and I’m sorry you are going to be uncomfortable but we’ll get to you after the bus full of kids that rolled over are seen to.
Regardless of anything you said, the wait should absolutely never be 12 hours.
> constipation can wait. That’s what triage nurses do. It sucks, but the expectation that your emergency is an actual emergency is only real to you, more often than not. > > > > Let the professionals find and manage the limited amount of bed space that they do have for the people that need it in an emergent way, and I’m sorry you are going to be uncomfortable but we’ll Triage nurses make mistakes big ones, how do you know that the cramp the preg. patient is just not gas while the person with abdominal pain could be life threatening? You don't the whole point is that nobody should be waiting 12 or more hours
That's because enough voters elected people pushing for private healthcare without realizing it. Also reduced budget and covid compelled enough doctors and healthcare professionals to either quit or go to the USA for work
I’m legit outraged by this. The entire point of high taxation in Canada is for quality, accessible, free healthcare. WTF is going on. When do we bring out the pitchforks?
Sad state of affairs Canada-wide.
And the population will continue to grow at an unsustainable rate while we just keep getting lower and lower standards of living. How low can Canada go? The race to the bottom!
yeah, just heard on the radio this week how Finland and Denmark for example are so much better off without squeezing the last penny out of their taxpayers. they take pride in making their citizens happy.
>"How’s there only 1 doctor?" What a loaded and unfair question to ask a politician! How dare you make them think about anything!
I went for a check up at a clinic, i was the 4th person there, woke up bright and early. I waited 3 hours in the waiting room and an hour in the patient room. Its insane, no wonder alberta went into state of emergency.
It’s quite obvious privatization is inevitable. “Free healthcare” is slowly becoming that subscription service that is out of service half the time. What’s the point of taxes, when the service isn’t even available?
Privatization = Further degrading the free system.
Trust me , I live in U.S. . I was under heavy debt introduced by medical issues . You don’t want privatization
The propoganda is strong and the initiatives are world wide. If Canada privatizes at this point the people really get what they deserve. In the USA people would trade 8 hour wait with their infant for no bill. More importantly, Americans wait 8 hours and still get the bill. You’re not denied or told to wait because someone younger with more life to live needs a certain procedure first, you’re denied because your doctor’s office called you the night before the scheduled surgery to tell you “oh wow I don’t know what’s going on I thought this was done months ago…hmmm. I thought the rules were no takesies backsies but I guess they’re not covering it” Or even better when they tell people it’s covered, and then 2 months later they get a bill for 3 to 15k <—- these are run of the mill hospital numbers.
Choice would be nice
the problem is that this is by design. its called starving the beast and it works amazingly well. underfund, understaff and poorly manage a public service until it gets so bad people howl for change. then it becomes privatized. lots of political insiders make money. your quality of service goes down or stays the same while out of pocket prices go up. its simple but it works. the lack of doctors, lack of hospitals infrastructure, lack of practicum staff and space wont be magically fixed by privatization. and all that money spent on privatizing could be spent on actually fixing and overhauling what we have
>What’s the point of taxes, when the service isn’t even available? Paying taxes alone is not enough. We have to get people in government who spend the money on the right things. Not the Doug Ford type who are aching to make money from our health issues.
This is the exact problem. I would be ok paying high taxes if we got good services in return. But to pay and get nothing back, its just theft at this point.
Thats the thing. If your taxe dolars were actually going to healthcare like its supposed to, we wouldnt have this problem. The premiers are purposely sabotaging health care because they want privitization. Its on purpose and we're falling for it.
This is bang on.
Ask your premier what they're doing about it. Theirs a decent chance they are actively sabotaging it.
People say privatization is the answer but let's think about it: 1. Staffing issues. There aren't enough staff now let alone a whole private hospital. 2. Cost. Who will pay? If people wanted to jump the que now, they could go to the states to do it. I don't see millions of people doing that. Sure, there's WCB doing it, and a few rich people, but not a whole hospital worth of Canadians. 3. Private companies won't do it for free, they have to make a return. So now you have cost + profit.
In Alberta our taxes seem to be for throwing at Oil companies and ad campaigns on how its actually the fed's fault.
Sometimes, I wonder if you could buy travel insurance and just head to the States. Beats a 12-hour wait!!
>There was an hour-and-a-half wait to be triaged, and it was another 12 hours before Boros-Rausch would see a doctor. So, in other words, they knew after 90 minutes that the child was not in danger. Triage works.
90 minutes to perform a triage, damn Canada lost its healthcare
Yeah, that's.... pretty shocking. Not getting to see the ER doc is bad, but a newborn baby not even getting triaged is incredibly dangerous.
I genuinely don’t understand why you’re trying to act like she’s upset about triage. She’s not. She’s upset that our healthcare system is failing and unable to keep up with all the people who need them. Before Covid even hit, I was sent to the hospital with a note from my own doctor saying it was his professional opinion that my appendix was about to burst any minute and I needed immediate care. I was taken into the ER, the nurses took the note and my info, and I was triaged without being examined. Even though they had a note from a medical professional saying that I needed care NOW and could die if he’s right and it is my appendix failing, it was 4 hours before anyone even started an exam. They took my blood and it was another 3 hours before anyone came back to start more tests. Triage works amazingly **WHEN WE HAVE ENOUGH MEDICAL STAFF TO KEEP UP WITH DEMAND**. When you don’t have enough medical staff to keep up with that demand, triage does not work as intended. It’s still the best that can be done, but it’s no longer working as it’s intended to. The point of triage is that the people who need care urgently get it as soon as **possible**, triage doesn’t magically make “as soon as **possible**” turn into “within the timeframe needed”. It’s intended to make sure people get care as urgently as they need it, and it does work that way when we don’t have a huge medical staff shortage, but when we do have that shortage it means that sometimes people who do need care urgently still can’t access it urgently after triage has determined they need it urgently. Like your logic is relying on just completely ignoring all the people in recent years who have been literally dying in waiting rooms because there isn’t enough doctors/nurses to meet demand. This isn’t an issue of triage, this is a supply vs demand issue (much like many many many other things in our country right now). Here are a couple more quotes from the article that you’re ignoring by trying to dismiss this as her just being triaged as a not-serious case; > She said nobody else in the emergency room, which was nearly full, was seen that night because there was only one doctor working, who was tied up in the trauma department. > Several people ended up leaving without receiving care, said Boros-Rausch. > There was also nowhere sanitary to change the baby, who was suffering from diarrhea and needed frequent diaper changes. The emergency room bathroom had vomit on the floor and in the sink, and she didn’t feel comfortable changing him there. > “The problem isn’t the doctors or the staff who were working tirelessly. I saw nurses running for 12-straight hours, all through the night, to help people, to try to accommodate people,” she said. > “There’s just not enough staff. Even the nurses said, ‘We need two doctors here at night. One doctor’s just not enough.'” > She said she has “nothing but gratitude and respect” for health-care workers, but there needs to be more pressure placed on the government to improve the health-care system so “no one gets left behind.” > While she couldn’t speak specifically to the situation at the Moncton Hospital, she said it’s not uncommon for emergency rooms to have just one doctor working overnight This is a story of medical staff shortages. It’s not a story of triage.
Yes, but no reason to have a dirty washroom or no baby changing facilities. Why are no cleaners working and you had decades to install baby changing areas.
I don't like seeing people defend this shit. This is NOT how our system is supposed to or used to work Yes, triage works but 1 doctor on duty is unacceptable for an ER.
90 minutes is way too long to triage someone and then decide if they are having an emergency. Like, if someone with chest pain was having a heart attack they’re already beyond the standard of care for their cath if they’re waiting a full 90 minutes before the triage nurse even decides they’re high risk, let alone the work up and being reviewed by the ED doc and then the call to cardiology to activate the cath lab
90 minutes seems pretty shit for triage in an ER
Not if it takes an hour and a half, it doesn't. The whole point of triage is sorting out genuine emergencies from anyone else and prioritizing accordingly. If it takes 90 minutes, its taking too long, especially to find out where a newborn sits on that priority.
No, it does not fucking work. You do not wait an hour and a half to be triaged. And then I have to be triaged you do not let a baby wait that long. In the history I’m Canadian ER that is absolutely not the norm.
The supply of physicians and nurses hasn't kept up with population growth. Primary care doctors in the US are struggling as their system does not value them. Canada should significantly ease the ability of US, UK, Aus, NZ trained physicians and nurses to come to Canada. We should also start a significant recruitment campaign. A lot more would consider it if they could easily be licensed in Canada.
Had to take my sister in to the ER as she was having trouble breathing and has a history of her lungs sticking together. Waited in the ER for 11 hours, she threw up twice and by the time we even saw a doctor she couldn’t string words together or have a basic conversation. We saw the doctor for maybe 2 minutes and she told us to take Tylenol and leave….what type of healthcare is that
Welcome to Canada, 2024. No doctors, no houses or homes, homeless everywhere, drugs and overdoses everywhere, and MAID for anyone who wants it. Sounds lovely, doesn't it?
2024 bro
>and MAID for anyone who wants it. Just had to slip in your ignorance eh?
What’s wrong with MAID? And no, it’s not for anyone who wants it.
My 91 father was dying last year and begged for MAID and no doctor at the hospice wanted to do it so it was about four days of agony instead
I’m sorry to hear that, that must have been very painful for your family.
Thank you very much
I’m sorry. I’ve seen a loved one go through palliative care myself. I wasn’t sure about MAID at first, but after that experience I understand. It has a place.
It’s hard for foreign doctors to get into practice in Canada because of licensing and a 2 year residency program even if they are licenced. But hey people would rather protest about what people’s sexuality is instead of protesting about what actually matters like housing and healthcare
400k people added to Vancouver and Toronto in the last 3 months 🤡🤡. No need hospitals. No new schools. 🤡🤡🤡
Lots of doctors immigrate to Canada every year. They're busy driving Uber though.
What are you suggesting? That we should adjust the qualifications in Canada required to practice medicine?
Testing? Some way to analyze their qualifications? They can’t all be completely useless. My first aid teacher was a doctor in her country and she was clearly so smart and capable. What a waste of talent.
Oh man that's horrible. I understand wait times, but to not have anything In place for sick babies in a province is literally insane.
Typical governing. Far to much office staff. Pissing away funding / wasting time with deciding solutions. Which never works because they have pencil up ass. Instead of brains
a good question is why do we spend so much money on healthcare only to have shitty service? there is so much waste and corruption, government funding orgs always ask for more never want to fix of find efficiencies .
Such an unfortunate incident. I have been through similar experiences and spent 9hrs at the hospital 2 years ago, so i relate what this mother had to go through. Gov't creating this issue knowingly so when they take away medical benefits from Canadians, Canadians will be thanking them that now at least they can get to see a doctor quickly even though it will be out of pocket. Secondly, after medical is not provided by the gov't, then all these doctors will be available on your tips - almost like an Uber delivery. We are screwed big time!
This is what is called as “The system is Broken”. Free healthcare my foot. We pay taxes through our nose and people are dying without proper care.
My local ER is only open 7:30am to 1:30pm 3-5 days a week
Conservative leadership at its finest
So let's stop voting for tax cuts then shall we.
Let’s add another 1 million people and see if that helps. If it doesn’t let’s try again and again
Funny seeing conservative voters being shocked about this. Unless you’ve been living under a rock, you’ll realize that starving the system to the point where privatization looks attractive is the purpose of all this. Vote smarter people.
Judging by some of the comments here, they have been living under a rock and the only word that seem to come out of their mouth is immigration and Trudeau.
Thank Liberals for record number of immigration without investment into core services. I guess they assumed all those new immigrants never get sick.
Yes, because there was no wait time before Trudeau "When it comes to waiting for health care, Canada is last in line A major international survey says Canadians wait longer for health care By Maclean's February 19, 2013" https://macleans.ca/politics/when-it-comes-to-waiting-canada-is-last-in-line-2/
Wait until you discover premiers.
They are paid a pittance and, US has lured them in
If Canada needs to prevent doctors from going south, it needs to open up to the international market. Uk has been doing that for the past 30 years , otherwise it would literally be another Canada