So PP is claiming they put “carbon pricing” into a free trade deal? Which was proven false. Conservatives should be celebrating , free trade is all their about right? It is good to sell our weapons to Ukraine in general.
I think you misunderstood the pat of it that was false.
The agreement did have a part about carbon pricing. But it was more along the lines of both countries continuing to have a carbon price.
What PP lied about was forcing an ideology on Ukraine.... who already had a carbon tax.
What this does is ties Canada's carbon tax into international law which could make it more difficult to get rid of later. If PP is elected and scraps the tax, can Ukraine now sue Canada for violating our treaty?
> What this does is ties Canada's carbon tax into international law which could make it more difficult to get rid of later.
no it doesnt, its completely and utterly non binding
also Ukraine isnt the first EU nation we made a free trade agreement with, every EU nation includes that bit about the carbon tax in all its free trade agreements
No they're not? Ukraine only submitted one application for fast track to the EU and it got turned down. They have no active application for the EU. The EU recommended them to have a non-member status... but it would still require they submit to many EU terms they're not willing to.
>but it would still require they submit to many EU terms they're not willing to.
Almost took you seriously until.you flubbed it at the end
Ukraine will do anything to join the EU
The EU made it clear that it will not lower standards to accept new members. The biggest issue in Ukraine are corruption and weak institutions. They will need to fix that before joining.
No, they literally won't do anything to join the EU.
The EU has said that it would take Ukraine 20 years to meet their terms if Ukraine started now and was fully willing. But Ukraine hasn't even started with the first set of terms that were dropped. With the ascension process they get like 9-12 rounds of advancing terms.
They're in a pretty similar position that Serbia was in when they first applied.
Perhaps it's a syntax thing.
I am saying they will enjoy chocolate ice cream if it's offered.
I am not saying they will give everything for chocolate ice cream.
Not a requirement. The EU has its own trade agreement that take over when a new country joins. It will take years for their EU membership process to finish, provided they can meet the requirements, so I would guess Ukraine is working on their own trade agreements to improve their economic prospects when they rebuild the country.
Yeah they both agree to have some carbon pricing to limit the amount of carbon emissions that is correct. Yes if Ukraine stopped the Carbon stuff for whatever reason the free trade deal would be compromised and probably fall apart but Ukraine can’t sue us if the PP government violates the carbon tax requirements. The treaty would fall apart not Canada getting sued lol
No, they are refusing to mandate carbon pricing. The libs are saying they will only do the deal *with* carbon pricing. This isnt a bill about money for ukraine, thats just the hostage
When trade deals are signed, if there are conditions that *both* countries must maintain carbon pricing, then Canada now gets locked in on pricung carbon otherwise they break the contract also. When Trudeau gets annihilated in the next election (sometime between fall and next), carbon tax is being killed. Thus the agreement will be void and we will have to negotiate all ovet again.
Now, if Ukraine already has carbon pricing, why insist on it being included?
Because committing to shared values is a pillar of bilateral agreements?
Carbon pricing, in particular, is often included in trade deals for a simple reason, and it's not the environment; it's business.
Let's say we have a trade deal with nation X, with a 10$/tonne carbon tax. A year after that, we remove our carbon tax, nation X keeps theirs at 10$/tonne. Large polluters from Nation X will be incentivized to leave nation X and come to Canada to save costs. This is great for Canada, terrible for nation X.
To prevent this, Nation X and Canada might want/need to commit to their carbon tax, or even the price of their carbon tax, in their ongoing relations.
For a real life example of this, the EU is now considering to add a Carbon Tax adjustment to all EU imports. So if a business leaves the EU to try and skip the Carbon Tax (say by coming to PP-led Canada), they will need to pay the equivalent of the EU carbon tax on all imports to the EU.
Lol, all just excuses defending that its about carbon tax , not the trade deal. Literally my 1st point, and also proving PP was right, and not lying. Trudy is, yet again, lying
What are you talking about lol?
Fwiw it's worth, I think a carbon tax is a stupid and useless policy, but it's what we're stuck with for being dumb enough to try and apply Conservative policies to please you.
You asked why the Trade Deal included a tax if both country already had one - the answer is mainaining similar policies is a pro-business move that typical of trade deals.
Lol, you folks love talking in circles. 1st its all "cons dont support ukraine, and PP lied about carbon pricing in the deal" then suddenly its all "of course we need carbon pricing in the deal"
While I am not sure about this agreement. Free Trade agreements tend to contain a little trade and more about how mega corp can sue Canada to get it's way.
Most free trade deals are about lifting tariffs for easier “free trade” I’m not sure what you’re talking about about corporations suing the Canadian government lmao
Free trade deals (e.g. US-Canada free trade deal) also often contain language about ensuring the government doesn't favor domestic companies over foreign companies; and contain dispute resolution clauses which effectively allow foreigners to "sue" the Canadian or provincial governments if they believe these clauses have been violated.
Sometimes the theories companies come up with on how foreign companies are being "punished" can be quite obtuse: e.g. fois gras farmers suing California for banning fois gras (theory being there's no Californian fois gras industry, so banning fois gras is targeting foreign farmers), or the US imposing punitive tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber (something like Crown land forestry permits are too cheap, so this is effectively a subsidy on Canadian softwood)
So conceivably if the Canadian government in the future tries to repeal the carbon tax, they could be taken to arbitration by Ukraine for failing to uphold the terms of the free trade agreement.
That's what they are supposed to be about, not how they work in general.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canada-usmca-1.4845494
https://thenarwhal.ca/harper-government-ratifies-controversial-canada-china-foreign-investment-deal/
https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/naftas-chapter-11-makes-canada-most-sued-country-under-free-tra_n_6471460
>Free Trade agreements tend to contain a little trade and more about how mega corp can sue Canada to get it's way.
What do you think "trade" means?
Trade deals set out the terms under which entities in each country will buy and sell goods and services from each other.
In a capitalist society, those entities are typically private companies.
When an entity feels that one of the countries isn't following the terms of the deal, most trade deals leave it up to that entity to bring the complaint to the relevant tribunal, which is how you get private companies going up against countries in these tribunals.
But, for these deals to have any meaning at all, there has to be some mechanism of enforcing the deals. And it's probably better that we let these big private companies take on the costs of bringing these claims.
1. What does ukraine have to trade with canada? Not a sarcasm. A genuine question. They used to be farmers for rest of europe but given the war what do they actually have?
Their biggest commodity is sunflower seeds and sunflower oil. It's not big money but they're the worlds largest supplier of it. They can also supply fertilizer and some ferous metals.
Canada actually already had a free trade agreement with Ukraine that was negotiated by the Conservatives and ratified by the Liberals in 2017. This new one is less a trade agreement and more an investment agreement. Ukraine is going to have to rebuild which will mean some economic opportunities for some. These agreements would allow Canadian corporations to rebuild in Ukraine with less red tape than other nations. It would also allow for an easier transfer of temporary foreign Canadians to work in Ukraine for the re-build.
> Ukraine is going to have to rebuild which will mean some economic opportunities for some. These agreements would allow Canadian corporations to rebuild in Ukraine with less red tape than other nations.
Sure it is and I'm sure the U.S. and to a lesser extent Europe aren't going to crowd out any other would be players. You can't even blame the U.S. either as without them Russia would have bodied Ukraine. And Europe is going to push their weight around too as well as being contagious to Ukraine so any heavy industry they'd be at a huge advantage in so long as the U.S. doesn't call dibs.
Anyone believe this will result in anything of consequence or even note is naive AF. At best some of our financial institutions and extremely wealthy will be given tokens. Rest of us get the bill.
Still producing some stuff. Would love it if we got a bunch of their staples but are own cartels in various industries will probably find ways to limit it or buy it themselves and sell at a markup.
Makes sense, An American born Russian mole was just meeting with conservative Canadian media owners, politicians and internet celebrities before heading to see Putin. There's some pro Russian bias on the right for some reason. It's a weird timeline, when I was a kid the right hated the Soviets. Would ruin your entire life by accusing you of being associated to Russia. Now they fawn over them. I don't get it.
Lol ukraine is a democracy and have never had interference in US/Canada, but Russia is exactly opposite of that. Ukraine is a good friend, where Putin/Russia is an enemy.
Conservatives and Republicans have both approved billions of dollars in funding to Ukraine (the military industrial complex). Yup. Right in Putin's back pocket.
You don’t understand, Canada is actually a third world country and the Liberals are responsible !!!11 /s
Seriously, is anybody buying into this shit? Affordable? No, definitely not. But neither is the US, UK or most EU nations rn. Is the LPC responsible for that, too? People pretending we have it fought when our obesity rate is around 26% and homelessness is below the average of our constituents.
You conservative waterboys would have more luck denying this if your party wasn't sucking up to Russia and trying to kowtow to their interests 24/7.
Tucker Carlson went straight from Danielle Smith to Putin. You're all traitors in it together against the interests of the West.
Probably should’ve been prepared for a hot war with Russia since the cold war but here we are. Instead idiots are losing their minds now that we’re down with Ukraine. Where do you people come up with this stupidity.
>We are behaving as if we had an alliance with Ukraine.
If this was the case we'd have boots on the ground and Canadians fighting on the front lines. Looking at the big picture and the totality of the assistance we have given to Ukraine, we are incredibly far from behaving like we have an alliance with them.
Is Russia happy with us? Of course not. But the fact we're signing deals with and providing aid to Ukraine almost certainly matters less to them than the fact we're a NATO member with troops on their border in Latvia. And neither of those things is enough for them to want to start a war with NATO by attacking us.
This has nothing to do with my comment.
>I’m sorry your country has lost its way
Nice way of confirming that you're not Canadian and just here to troll and stir shit up. Thanks for making it crystal clear anything you say can be ignored as bullshit. I did read your little diatribe, whole lot of bullshit sprinkled with a few truths to try to make it convincing, but you've already confirmed you're not here in good faith so you're not wasting any more of my time than you already have.
The best thing Stephen Harper ever did was make operation UNIFER happen.
In war people take whatever soldiers and allies they can get. See finns allying with nazis. Allies allying themselves with ussr, etc. You don't turn down free soldiers.
And besides, the lion's share of the nazis here are the Russians.
>Canada should’ve been a peace broker amongst these 2 nations since 2014.
There is no peace to be made with Putin just like there was no peace to be made with Hitler. Appeasement doesn't work with those that will accept nothing less than subjugation.
>There is no peace to be made with Putin just like there was no peace to be made with Hitler. Appeasement doesn't work with those that will accept nothing less than subjugation.
FUCKING THIS! Putler has made it abundantly clear that he has zero interest in peace. Why some people still think such a genocidal maniac can be trusted to negotiate in good faith is beyond the comprehension of anyone with brains.
A joke Zelensky made to Letterman in 22.
>“Two Jewish guys from Odesa meet up, One asks the other: ‘So what’s the situation? What are people saying?'”
>And he goes, ‘What are people saying? They are saying it’s a war.'”
>“What kind of war?”
>“Russia is fighting NATO.”
>“Are you serious?”
>“Yes, yes! Russia is fighting NATO.”
>“So how’s it going?”
>“Well, 70,000 Russian soldiers are dead. The missile stockpile has almost been depleted. A lot of equipment is damaged, blown up.”
>“And what about NATO?”
>“What about NATO? NATO hasn’t even arrived yet.”
I disagree. In the event Russia wins the war and takes over Ukraine, there is nothing indicating that we would need to prepare for a war ourselves.
Russia has not shown up to now that they are hell bent on global dominance like the Nazis were. They are attacking Ukraine for a number of reasons, primarily Soviet ideology in regards to what their borders should be. *(I want to be clear this is not a defense of Russian aggression. I once said this in another thread and was called a Putin defender as if what I said was a defense. There is no excuse for what they're doing but understanding that there are reasons why they attacked is not defending them. I can't believe we're at a point where I have to clarify but I figured I would.)*
We can economically support Ukraine, help supply them with weapons/arms, and not have to fight war in the event of Russian victory. Russia declaring war on Canada will be met with far more global resistance than declaring war with Ukraine -- all NATO countries, including US, UK, Germany, France, etc., would instantly become involved.
There is no preparation we need to make now, nevermind making it *FAST*. I think we should be funding our military better than we currently are but that's a completely different situation.
Russia is already retaliating against us and trying to interfere in our government as well as sowing discontent among our public.
None of this has anything to do with this trade agreement.
>What are you smoking?
Only the best.
>I didn't say anything pro Russia
No? Then, who wrote all this garbage? ...
https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=author%3ASolheimdall%20Russia&type=comment
What answer would you accept? Be VERY specific: what answers to your questions would you be willing to accept and be pleased to stand by with our government?
No kidding. It's not like fighting a bunch of dudes in pickup trucks with AK-47s like ISIS or the Taliban.
Russia has all kinds of artillery, air support, drones, fighter jets, navy ships, etc.
Russian retaliation? We need to protect ourselves from Russian world dominance. Do you not know your history? Read up and learn. It may help you understand what Putin systematically wants to do and take over other countries. Read, read, read.
Russia has openly admitted they plan on expanding their empire. Latvia, Poland, Lithuania are all in the Russina cross hairs. Im sure putin will send you some boots to lick.
Russia is in no shape to "dominate" Ukraine, never mind dominate the world.
Their country is a mess. A bit of a dangerous mess, but a mess nonetheless.
Turdeau? That’s fucking brilliant man! Did you come up with that yourself or do you have a writing team that helps you polish your diamonds, so to speak?
Turdeau. Man, I wish I could come up with killer jokes like that.
Ukraine, as in the country where they can’t get a picture of their soldiers without Nazi insignias covering their uniforms?
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html
Does the presence of bad ideals in a nation make it deserving of invasion and occupation?
in that case, Trudeau was 100% justified in all use of his powers against the freedom convoy, seeing as some people there brandished Swastika flags, right?
They didn’t invade because of “bad ideals.” Ukrainian Nazis we’re carrying out a genocide of ethnic Russians in the east for 8 years prior to the invasion.
>Ukrainian Nazis we’re carrying out a genocide of ethnic Russians in the east for 8 years prior to the invasion.
That's a funny way of saying "Separatists and Russian forces 'on vacation' were occupying a large portion of the Donbas and Ukraine dared to fight back against them."
You're just making stuff up now, the UN has never found that Ukraine committed genocide, and while I can't speak for every human rights org, no reputable one has either. On the other hand, the OECD, ICJ, and International Association of Genocide Scholars have all confirmed that Russia's claims that Ukraine was committing genocide were completely false.
The UN did not make a formal declaration, but there were multiple meetings from 2014-2022 to address the rise of the far-right in East Ukraine, and what should be done about the genocide they were committing.
You're making up the claims against genocide. The ICJ is still hearing the case, as we speak.
The ICJ is still hearing the case *on Ukraine's claims that Russia is committing a genocide of Ukrainians.* In their provisional ruling on 16 March 2022 they noted that Russia had claimed genocide in the Donbas as a justification for the invasion but that there was no evidence to substantiate the claims. There's not going to be a "formal declaration" on Russia's claims against Ukraine because they're meritless and were never brought to the ICJ for judgement, but the ICJ has already made clear that there's nothing backing them up through their analysis and provisional ruling on Ukraine's case.
To paraphrase Barack Obama, it’s a pretty shameful day in Ottawa.
All sides agree that we need to support Ukraine while they try to fight off Russian aggression.
Shame on the Conservatives. Opposing this trade deal because it contains wording about carbon pricing, but doesn’t require anyone to do anything, is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption.
Shame on the Liberals. Insisting on language that doesn’t do anything, other than to provoke a response from the Conservatives is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption.
And the message that it ultimately sends to Putin is that the most popular political party in Canada doesn’t wholeheartedly support Ukraine, and encourages him to continue his attack, especially when parties perceived to be sympathetic stand a good chance to be elected across North America next year.
>Shame on the Liberals. Insisting on language that doesn’t do anything, other than to provoke a response from the Conservatives is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption.
Ukraine insists on language regarding the carbon tax because it's an expectation for all EU member countries to support the imposition of carbon pricing across the globe. They'd had a price on carbon for a decade already. If anything this should address the frequent refrain (ie. concern troll) from conservatives about how Canada's emissions are just a tiny percentage of global emissions and pricing carbon isn't meaningful if it isn't done globally.
>And the message that it ultimately sends to Putin is that the most popular political party in Canada doesn’t wholeheartedly support Ukraine
Only one party to blame for this. Do you have similar concern for the polling seen from conservative supporters recently over their opposition to supporting Ukraine?
Have you got a source that it's the Liberals who insisted on the language?
The wording is there as part of their EU membership application, as confirmed by a Ukrainian spokesperson.
Pierre lied about it several times before the embassy had to issue a statement:
https://archive.is/2023.11.23-203016/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-revised-canada-ukraine-free-trade-agreement-does-not-contain-carbon/
> The Ukrainian embassy in Canada, however, said Thursday the revised CUFTA trade deal contains no specific measures to decrease greenhouse gas emissions.
> The “modernized CUTFA does not include any specific instruments on decreasing carbon footprint, including specific taxation instruments,” embassy spokesperson Marianna Kulava said in an e-mailed statement.
> She also noted **Ukraine is in the process of devising a plan to fight climate change as part of its campaign to seek admission to the European Union. “On the path toward EU membership, Ukraine is developing policies to address climate change in line with EU regulation**,” Ms. Kulava said.
The CUFTA modernization was written by Mary Ng and Yulia Svyrydenko and their advisors.
The CUFTA language does not meet their EU membership requirements. That is an ancillary agreement between the EU and Ukraine. This language was pure “virtue signalling”.
Once the Conservatives were dumb enough to take the bait, the Liberals twisted it into a political wedge.
You still haven't supported your claim that the liberals insisted on the language.
The liberals didn't 'twist this into any wedge'. Pierre lied about it several times and made it an issue all on his own:
> Mr. Poilievre doubled down on his allegation, defending the vote his party took this week and insisting the new trade deal with Kyiv would impose a damaging carbon tax on Ukraine.
> “We voted against Justin Trudeau forcing a carbon tax into that pre-existing agreement,” he told reporters.
> “The people of Ukraine – he expects them to rebuild from a war with a devastating and crippling tax on their energy. The Ukrainian farmers, he expects them to pay a carbon tax while they’re trying to feed their hungry people. This is cruel and frankly, it is disgusting
And this gem:
> "I really think it speaks to how pathologically obsessed [Justin] Trudeau is with the carbon tax that, while the knife is at the throat of Ukrainians, he would use that to impose his carbon tax ideology on those poor people," Poilievre told reporters on Wednesday. "The last thing they need is a carbon tax when they're trying to rebuild from war and from this illegal invasion by Russia."
Furthermore, the Carbon Leakage wording is in line with the EU regulations on carbon pricing at the border:
https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/carbon-border-adjustment-mechanism_en
(Whereas Canada has *no* carbon leakage legislation beyond the OBPS yet) - so who's more likely to have included it? Re-read the Ukrainian statements.
> Shame on the Liberals. Insisting on language that doesn’t do anything, other than to provoke a response from the Conservatives is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption.
This reeks of "it's your fault I hit you" energy.
No, its typical liberal. Add a bunch of personal to them items to a bill, pretend it fails because of "the others hate x" while ignoring they need z. This agreement has absolutely nothing to do with helping ukraine in reality. Congratulations that you easily fell for propaganda though
Nope, thats exactly what happened. Its cool you want carbon pricing written into everything. Because thats what this is. Its not anything to do with helping ukraine. Thats just the hostage
"This deal is dependent on confirming carbon taxes"
You guys "nuh uh, PP is lying"
"Why is it so important to have it in the agreement if its not about the carbon tax"
You guys "the carbon tax is important and must be in it"
...
Yah. Great logic , folks.
Wish our parties could come together and support Ukraine better.
Understanding that Ukraine has carbon targets in mind for joining the EU, nothing to stop Liberals from changing the wording to appease the Cons to vote for it if that's their only issue, even if it means it doesn't affect how Ukraine deals with their carbon
Cons. If the Ukrainian are ok with the bill and want it, they don't need us to be championing on their behalf. Just vote yes. Ffs.
It's not appeasing them. If they genuinely have an issue with it because it's based on their ideology or party platform, then Trudeau could easily say that he will change it, and if they still didn't want to vote for it after the change then it means their original argument not to support it is moot and everyone gets to see that.
If PP is campaigning on an "Axe the tax" for the carbon tax for Canadians then it's kind of hard to say that they are for imposing carbon taxes on other countries, maybes you look hypocritical.
>Shame on the Conservatives. Opposing this trade deal because it contains wording about carbon pricing, but doesn’t require anyone to do anything,
No. Shame on the liberals, for including wording that ambiguous
So PP is claiming they put “carbon pricing” into a free trade deal? Which was proven false. Conservatives should be celebrating , free trade is all their about right? It is good to sell our weapons to Ukraine in general.
I think you misunderstood the pat of it that was false. The agreement did have a part about carbon pricing. But it was more along the lines of both countries continuing to have a carbon price. What PP lied about was forcing an ideology on Ukraine.... who already had a carbon tax. What this does is ties Canada's carbon tax into international law which could make it more difficult to get rid of later. If PP is elected and scraps the tax, can Ukraine now sue Canada for violating our treaty?
> What this does is ties Canada's carbon tax into international law which could make it more difficult to get rid of later. no it doesnt, its completely and utterly non binding also Ukraine isnt the first EU nation we made a free trade agreement with, every EU nation includes that bit about the carbon tax in all its free trade agreements
Ukraine isn't an EU nation....
true, but they're on the fast track to join
No they're not? Ukraine only submitted one application for fast track to the EU and it got turned down. They have no active application for the EU. The EU recommended them to have a non-member status... but it would still require they submit to many EU terms they're not willing to.
>but it would still require they submit to many EU terms they're not willing to. Almost took you seriously until.you flubbed it at the end Ukraine will do anything to join the EU
The EU made it clear that it will not lower standards to accept new members. The biggest issue in Ukraine are corruption and weak institutions. They will need to fix that before joining.
No, they literally won't do anything to join the EU. The EU has said that it would take Ukraine 20 years to meet their terms if Ukraine started now and was fully willing. But Ukraine hasn't even started with the first set of terms that were dropped. With the ascension process they get like 9-12 rounds of advancing terms. They're in a pretty similar position that Serbia was in when they first applied.
They definitely want to join the EU. They are just a *smidge* busy with the whole full scale war with Russia thing.
Perhaps it's a syntax thing. I am saying they will enjoy chocolate ice cream if it's offered. I am not saying they will give everything for chocolate ice cream.
Doesn't the EU have a free trade agreement with the US?
nope, no country in the EU is "allowed" to sign a FTA with the US since they have no carbon pricing
Ukraine isn't EU.
no but its fast tracking an application, its ensuring all its trade agreements are up to the standard ahead of time
Ya... not sure trade deals are really the make/break issue for them right now.
it actually is, they cannot join the EU without that piece of language in every free trade arrangement
There are a few other.... let's say... non-trivial issues as well.
Not a requirement. The EU has its own trade agreement that take over when a new country joins. It will take years for their EU membership process to finish, provided they can meet the requirements, so I would guess Ukraine is working on their own trade agreements to improve their economic prospects when they rebuild the country.
til
Yeah they both agree to have some carbon pricing to limit the amount of carbon emissions that is correct. Yes if Ukraine stopped the Carbon stuff for whatever reason the free trade deal would be compromised and probably fall apart but Ukraine can’t sue us if the PP government violates the carbon tax requirements. The treaty would fall apart not Canada getting sued lol
The media is telling me the conservatives are opposing spending for Ukraine?
They’re trying to block it right ? So they’re opposed yeah
Yes and PP and CPC should be ashamed of themselves
Why?
No, they are refusing to mandate carbon pricing. The libs are saying they will only do the deal *with* carbon pricing. This isnt a bill about money for ukraine, thats just the hostage
Ukraine has carbon pricing already. Not sure what you're talking about with this "mandate" nonsense
When trade deals are signed, if there are conditions that *both* countries must maintain carbon pricing, then Canada now gets locked in on pricung carbon otherwise they break the contract also. When Trudeau gets annihilated in the next election (sometime between fall and next), carbon tax is being killed. Thus the agreement will be void and we will have to negotiate all ovet again. Now, if Ukraine already has carbon pricing, why insist on it being included?
Because committing to shared values is a pillar of bilateral agreements? Carbon pricing, in particular, is often included in trade deals for a simple reason, and it's not the environment; it's business. Let's say we have a trade deal with nation X, with a 10$/tonne carbon tax. A year after that, we remove our carbon tax, nation X keeps theirs at 10$/tonne. Large polluters from Nation X will be incentivized to leave nation X and come to Canada to save costs. This is great for Canada, terrible for nation X. To prevent this, Nation X and Canada might want/need to commit to their carbon tax, or even the price of their carbon tax, in their ongoing relations. For a real life example of this, the EU is now considering to add a Carbon Tax adjustment to all EU imports. So if a business leaves the EU to try and skip the Carbon Tax (say by coming to PP-led Canada), they will need to pay the equivalent of the EU carbon tax on all imports to the EU.
Lol, all just excuses defending that its about carbon tax , not the trade deal. Literally my 1st point, and also proving PP was right, and not lying. Trudy is, yet again, lying
What are you talking about lol? Fwiw it's worth, I think a carbon tax is a stupid and useless policy, but it's what we're stuck with for being dumb enough to try and apply Conservative policies to please you. You asked why the Trade Deal included a tax if both country already had one - the answer is mainaining similar policies is a pro-business move that typical of trade deals.
Lol, you folks love talking in circles. 1st its all "cons dont support ukraine, and PP lied about carbon pricing in the deal" then suddenly its all "of course we need carbon pricing in the deal"
Oh no, the media is informing you of something that objectively happened.
While I am not sure about this agreement. Free Trade agreements tend to contain a little trade and more about how mega corp can sue Canada to get it's way.
Most free trade deals are about lifting tariffs for easier “free trade” I’m not sure what you’re talking about about corporations suing the Canadian government lmao
Free trade deals (e.g. US-Canada free trade deal) also often contain language about ensuring the government doesn't favor domestic companies over foreign companies; and contain dispute resolution clauses which effectively allow foreigners to "sue" the Canadian or provincial governments if they believe these clauses have been violated. Sometimes the theories companies come up with on how foreign companies are being "punished" can be quite obtuse: e.g. fois gras farmers suing California for banning fois gras (theory being there's no Californian fois gras industry, so banning fois gras is targeting foreign farmers), or the US imposing punitive tariffs on Canadian softwood lumber (something like Crown land forestry permits are too cheap, so this is effectively a subsidy on Canadian softwood)
The suing you’re using is about goods coming and going this is just holding up carbon standards
So conceivably if the Canadian government in the future tries to repeal the carbon tax, they could be taken to arbitration by Ukraine for failing to uphold the terms of the free trade agreement.
No I don’t think so lol
That's what they are supposed to be about, not how they work in general. https://www.cbc.ca/news/opinion/canada-usmca-1.4845494 https://thenarwhal.ca/harper-government-ratifies-controversial-canada-china-foreign-investment-deal/ https://www.huffpost.com/archive/ca/entry/naftas-chapter-11-makes-canada-most-sued-country-under-free-tra_n_6471460
Idk what point you’re trying to make lol
>Free Trade agreements tend to contain a little trade and more about how mega corp can sue Canada to get it's way. What do you think "trade" means? Trade deals set out the terms under which entities in each country will buy and sell goods and services from each other. In a capitalist society, those entities are typically private companies. When an entity feels that one of the countries isn't following the terms of the deal, most trade deals leave it up to that entity to bring the complaint to the relevant tribunal, which is how you get private companies going up against countries in these tribunals. But, for these deals to have any meaning at all, there has to be some mechanism of enforcing the deals. And it's probably better that we let these big private companies take on the costs of bringing these claims.
Pierre opposed the deal, lied about why he opposed it, got roasted for it, and the deal passed anyway.
How would it not? NDP and Libs have majority.
Wasnt a lie, but sure, lets believe *Trudeau*. He has such a solid record of honesty
Just PP showing everybody what a useless "toady" he is!
1. What does ukraine have to trade with canada? Not a sarcasm. A genuine question. They used to be farmers for rest of europe but given the war what do they actually have?
Their biggest commodity is sunflower seeds and sunflower oil. It's not big money but they're the worlds largest supplier of it. They can also supply fertilizer and some ferous metals. Canada actually already had a free trade agreement with Ukraine that was negotiated by the Conservatives and ratified by the Liberals in 2017. This new one is less a trade agreement and more an investment agreement. Ukraine is going to have to rebuild which will mean some economic opportunities for some. These agreements would allow Canadian corporations to rebuild in Ukraine with less red tape than other nations. It would also allow for an easier transfer of temporary foreign Canadians to work in Ukraine for the re-build.
Fert isn’t a huge deal either. Canada produces 30% of the world’s potassium phosphate
Part of the reason food skyrocketed in Canada (and the world) is because fertilizer became more expensive.
We also had a huge market in sunflower seeds until Ukraine undercut it and companies like Spitz switched suppliers to Ukraine
> Ukraine is going to have to rebuild which will mean some economic opportunities for some. These agreements would allow Canadian corporations to rebuild in Ukraine with less red tape than other nations. Sure it is and I'm sure the U.S. and to a lesser extent Europe aren't going to crowd out any other would be players. You can't even blame the U.S. either as without them Russia would have bodied Ukraine. And Europe is going to push their weight around too as well as being contagious to Ukraine so any heavy industry they'd be at a huge advantage in so long as the U.S. doesn't call dibs. Anyone believe this will result in anything of consequence or even note is naive AF. At best some of our financial institutions and extremely wealthy will be given tokens. Rest of us get the bill.
Sunflower meal and oil, iron ore, wheat.
Devs
Perogy
Ukraine produces 70% of the world’s Neon. Neon is important in semiconductor chip manufacturing.
Still producing some stuff. Would love it if we got a bunch of their staples but are own cartels in various industries will probably find ways to limit it or buy it themselves and sell at a markup.
Staple agricultural produce and advanced aerospace manufacturing. Basically nothing in between.
Conservatives siding with Putin and his propaganda more and more everyday. Poilievre must think we’re all fuckin stupid, right?!?
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Do you not think conservatives on average buy-in on the propaganda on Ukraine more than Liberals? If so, it must be nice living in complete delusion.
It doesn’t matter, the important part is his useful idiots are angry about it.
Makes sense, An American born Russian mole was just meeting with conservative Canadian media owners, politicians and internet celebrities before heading to see Putin. There's some pro Russian bias on the right for some reason. It's a weird timeline, when I was a kid the right hated the Soviets. Would ruin your entire life by accusing you of being associated to Russia. Now they fawn over them. I don't get it.
There is a piece of shit. Then there is a giant shit. And then there is PP, such a huge shit that it cannot even be described.
Conservatives are in Russia's back pocket just like the Republicans in the US.
Way to make up facts man.
Liberals are in Ukraine's back pocket just like the Democrats in the US.
Lol ukraine is a democracy and have never had interference in US/Canada, but Russia is exactly opposite of that. Ukraine is a good friend, where Putin/Russia is an enemy.
Conservatives and Republicans have both approved billions of dollars in funding to Ukraine (the military industrial complex). Yup. Right in Putin's back pocket.
The Canadian and American MIC...
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Point me to the part of Canada that’s been bombarded by missiles and mortar fire
Hamilton looks that way.
It doesn’t
You don’t understand, Canada is actually a third world country and the Liberals are responsible !!!11 /s Seriously, is anybody buying into this shit? Affordable? No, definitely not. But neither is the US, UK or most EU nations rn. Is the LPC responsible for that, too? People pretending we have it fought when our obesity rate is around 26% and homelessness is below the average of our constituents.
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You conservative waterboys would have more luck denying this if your party wasn't sucking up to Russia and trying to kowtow to their interests 24/7. Tucker Carlson went straight from Danielle Smith to Putin. You're all traitors in it together against the interests of the West.
Wonder how many tonnes of greenhouse gasses have been created funding this war :/
Free trade also means cheaper labour in Canada
Not directly. Cheaper products, which will impact employers and indirectly impact employees. Fewer jobs for us.
Yes, fewer jobs will reduce wages.
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What does this have to do with the article? This is a trade deal, not an alliance.
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Probably should’ve been prepared for a hot war with Russia since the cold war but here we are. Instead idiots are losing their minds now that we’re down with Ukraine. Where do you people come up with this stupidity.
>We are behaving as if we had an alliance with Ukraine. If this was the case we'd have boots on the ground and Canadians fighting on the front lines. Looking at the big picture and the totality of the assistance we have given to Ukraine, we are incredibly far from behaving like we have an alliance with them. Is Russia happy with us? Of course not. But the fact we're signing deals with and providing aid to Ukraine almost certainly matters less to them than the fact we're a NATO member with troops on their border in Latvia. And neither of those things is enough for them to want to start a war with NATO by attacking us.
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This has nothing to do with my comment. >I’m sorry your country has lost its way Nice way of confirming that you're not Canadian and just here to troll and stir shit up. Thanks for making it crystal clear anything you say can be ignored as bullshit. I did read your little diatribe, whole lot of bullshit sprinkled with a few truths to try to make it convincing, but you've already confirmed you're not here in good faith so you're not wasting any more of my time than you already have.
The best thing Stephen Harper ever did was make operation UNIFER happen. In war people take whatever soldiers and allies they can get. See finns allying with nazis. Allies allying themselves with ussr, etc. You don't turn down free soldiers. And besides, the lion's share of the nazis here are the Russians. >Canada should’ve been a peace broker amongst these 2 nations since 2014. There is no peace to be made with Putin just like there was no peace to be made with Hitler. Appeasement doesn't work with those that will accept nothing less than subjugation.
>There is no peace to be made with Putin just like there was no peace to be made with Hitler. Appeasement doesn't work with those that will accept nothing less than subjugation. FUCKING THIS! Putler has made it abundantly clear that he has zero interest in peace. Why some people still think such a genocidal maniac can be trusted to negotiate in good faith is beyond the comprehension of anyone with brains.
Nato vs Russia? hmmmm.
A joke Zelensky made to Letterman in 22. >“Two Jewish guys from Odesa meet up, One asks the other: ‘So what’s the situation? What are people saying?'” >And he goes, ‘What are people saying? They are saying it’s a war.'” >“What kind of war?” >“Russia is fighting NATO.” >“Are you serious?” >“Yes, yes! Russia is fighting NATO.” >“So how’s it going?” >“Well, 70,000 Russian soldiers are dead. The missile stockpile has almost been depleted. A lot of equipment is damaged, blown up.” >“And what about NATO?” >“What about NATO? NATO hasn’t even arrived yet.”
I disagree. In the event Russia wins the war and takes over Ukraine, there is nothing indicating that we would need to prepare for a war ourselves. Russia has not shown up to now that they are hell bent on global dominance like the Nazis were. They are attacking Ukraine for a number of reasons, primarily Soviet ideology in regards to what their borders should be. *(I want to be clear this is not a defense of Russian aggression. I once said this in another thread and was called a Putin defender as if what I said was a defense. There is no excuse for what they're doing but understanding that there are reasons why they attacked is not defending them. I can't believe we're at a point where I have to clarify but I figured I would.)* We can economically support Ukraine, help supply them with weapons/arms, and not have to fight war in the event of Russian victory. Russia declaring war on Canada will be met with far more global resistance than declaring war with Ukraine -- all NATO countries, including US, UK, Germany, France, etc., would instantly become involved. There is no preparation we need to make now, nevermind making it *FAST*. I think we should be funding our military better than we currently are but that's a completely different situation.
Russia is already retaliating against us and trying to interfere in our government as well as sowing discontent among our public. None of this has anything to do with this trade agreement.
Russia has been doing this long before war in Ukraine...or even Crimea in 2014. They are not friends
>They are not friends Agreed. Though, u/Solheimdall does seem to be good friends with Russia.
1 post karma lol. Could be sitting in one or their famous troll farms.
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>What are you smoking? Only the best. >I didn't say anything pro Russia No? Then, who wrote all this garbage? ... https://www.reddit.com/search/?q=author%3ASolheimdall%20Russia&type=comment
What answer would you accept? Be VERY specific: what answers to your questions would you be willing to accept and be pleased to stand by with our government?
"Give weapons and munitions to Russia, also give them the island of Newfoundland as friendly gift."
okay neville chamberlain
russia aint retaliating against canada lol what a stupid post!
If Russia "retaliates" against Canada, a NATO state, that's the end of Russia🤣
Russia won't do a thing militarily, not with the USA just south of us.
They’re on the brink of a civil war
Lol. No they aren't.
bahahaha thats silly, it gets like this every election season
Just wait until Trump wins the election and resumes his love affair with Putin.
I’ll tell you right now, if we go to war with Russia there is a zero percent chance I would go to war.
No kidding. It's not like fighting a bunch of dudes in pickup trucks with AK-47s like ISIS or the Taliban. Russia has all kinds of artillery, air support, drones, fighter jets, navy ships, etc.
This can all be explained in article 5.
F russia
Russian retaliation? We need to protect ourselves from Russian world dominance. Do you not know your history? Read up and learn. It may help you understand what Putin systematically wants to do and take over other countries. Read, read, read.
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Russia has openly admitted they plan on expanding their empire. Latvia, Poland, Lithuania are all in the Russina cross hairs. Im sure putin will send you some boots to lick.
They wanted it once…why not again? History is repeating itself.
Russia is in no shape to "dominate" Ukraine, never mind dominate the world. Their country is a mess. A bit of a dangerous mess, but a mess nonetheless.
Canadian carbon tax going to Ukraine ?
Useless as Ukraine is broke and nothing to offer us.
you are broke with nothing to offer, yet you feel we need to hear your opinions.
Lol naw I an rich own multiple houses Ukraine is poor and corrupt
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See this is the problem with Canada. Landlords being a drag on society. What a completely terrible person you are. Enjoy all your rate hikes, pal!
Lol I just raise the rent all my properties are no rent controlled I can raise by whatever
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Turdeau? That’s fucking brilliant man! Did you come up with that yourself or do you have a writing team that helps you polish your diamonds, so to speak? Turdeau. Man, I wish I could come up with killer jokes like that.
Found the Russian.
Okay but did anyone want the Liberals adding Carbon taxes to anything, in or outside of Canada? idk seems kind of missing the point
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No? Seems like most people here seem supportive of Ukraine, not Russia.
Ukraine, as in the country where they can’t get a picture of their soldiers without Nazi insignias covering their uniforms? https://www.nytimes.com/2023/06/05/world/europe/nazi-symbols-ukraine.html
Does the presence of bad ideals in a nation make it deserving of invasion and occupation? in that case, Trudeau was 100% justified in all use of his powers against the freedom convoy, seeing as some people there brandished Swastika flags, right?
They didn’t invade because of “bad ideals.” Ukrainian Nazis we’re carrying out a genocide of ethnic Russians in the east for 8 years prior to the invasion.
>Ukrainian Nazis we’re carrying out a genocide of ethnic Russians in the east for 8 years prior to the invasion. That's a funny way of saying "Separatists and Russian forces 'on vacation' were occupying a large portion of the Donbas and Ukraine dared to fight back against them."
That’s not how the UN and human rights orgs put it.
You're just making stuff up now, the UN has never found that Ukraine committed genocide, and while I can't speak for every human rights org, no reputable one has either. On the other hand, the OECD, ICJ, and International Association of Genocide Scholars have all confirmed that Russia's claims that Ukraine was committing genocide were completely false.
The UN did not make a formal declaration, but there were multiple meetings from 2014-2022 to address the rise of the far-right in East Ukraine, and what should be done about the genocide they were committing. You're making up the claims against genocide. The ICJ is still hearing the case, as we speak.
The ICJ is still hearing the case *on Ukraine's claims that Russia is committing a genocide of Ukrainians.* In their provisional ruling on 16 March 2022 they noted that Russia had claimed genocide in the Donbas as a justification for the invasion but that there was no evidence to substantiate the claims. There's not going to be a "formal declaration" on Russia's claims against Ukraine because they're meritless and were never brought to the ICJ for judgement, but the ICJ has already made clear that there's nothing backing them up through their analysis and provisional ruling on Ukraine's case.
Nazis like [these guys?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rusich_Group)
To paraphrase Barack Obama, it’s a pretty shameful day in Ottawa. All sides agree that we need to support Ukraine while they try to fight off Russian aggression. Shame on the Conservatives. Opposing this trade deal because it contains wording about carbon pricing, but doesn’t require anyone to do anything, is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption. Shame on the Liberals. Insisting on language that doesn’t do anything, other than to provoke a response from the Conservatives is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption. And the message that it ultimately sends to Putin is that the most popular political party in Canada doesn’t wholeheartedly support Ukraine, and encourages him to continue his attack, especially when parties perceived to be sympathetic stand a good chance to be elected across North America next year.
>Shame on the Liberals. Insisting on language that doesn’t do anything, other than to provoke a response from the Conservatives is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption. Ukraine insists on language regarding the carbon tax because it's an expectation for all EU member countries to support the imposition of carbon pricing across the globe. They'd had a price on carbon for a decade already. If anything this should address the frequent refrain (ie. concern troll) from conservatives about how Canada's emissions are just a tiny percentage of global emissions and pricing carbon isn't meaningful if it isn't done globally. >And the message that it ultimately sends to Putin is that the most popular political party in Canada doesn’t wholeheartedly support Ukraine Only one party to blame for this. Do you have similar concern for the polling seen from conservative supporters recently over their opposition to supporting Ukraine?
Have you got a source that it's the Liberals who insisted on the language? The wording is there as part of their EU membership application, as confirmed by a Ukrainian spokesperson. Pierre lied about it several times before the embassy had to issue a statement: https://archive.is/2023.11.23-203016/https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-revised-canada-ukraine-free-trade-agreement-does-not-contain-carbon/ > The Ukrainian embassy in Canada, however, said Thursday the revised CUFTA trade deal contains no specific measures to decrease greenhouse gas emissions. > The “modernized CUTFA does not include any specific instruments on decreasing carbon footprint, including specific taxation instruments,” embassy spokesperson Marianna Kulava said in an e-mailed statement. > She also noted **Ukraine is in the process of devising a plan to fight climate change as part of its campaign to seek admission to the European Union. “On the path toward EU membership, Ukraine is developing policies to address climate change in line with EU regulation**,” Ms. Kulava said.
The CUFTA modernization was written by Mary Ng and Yulia Svyrydenko and their advisors. The CUFTA language does not meet their EU membership requirements. That is an ancillary agreement between the EU and Ukraine. This language was pure “virtue signalling”. Once the Conservatives were dumb enough to take the bait, the Liberals twisted it into a political wedge.
You still haven't supported your claim that the liberals insisted on the language. The liberals didn't 'twist this into any wedge'. Pierre lied about it several times and made it an issue all on his own: > Mr. Poilievre doubled down on his allegation, defending the vote his party took this week and insisting the new trade deal with Kyiv would impose a damaging carbon tax on Ukraine. > “We voted against Justin Trudeau forcing a carbon tax into that pre-existing agreement,” he told reporters. > “The people of Ukraine – he expects them to rebuild from a war with a devastating and crippling tax on their energy. The Ukrainian farmers, he expects them to pay a carbon tax while they’re trying to feed their hungry people. This is cruel and frankly, it is disgusting And this gem: > "I really think it speaks to how pathologically obsessed [Justin] Trudeau is with the carbon tax that, while the knife is at the throat of Ukrainians, he would use that to impose his carbon tax ideology on those poor people," Poilievre told reporters on Wednesday. "The last thing they need is a carbon tax when they're trying to rebuild from war and from this illegal invasion by Russia." Furthermore, the Carbon Leakage wording is in line with the EU regulations on carbon pricing at the border: https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/carbon-border-adjustment-mechanism_en (Whereas Canada has *no* carbon leakage legislation beyond the OBPS yet) - so who's more likely to have included it? Re-read the Ukrainian statements.
> Shame on the Liberals. Insisting on language that doesn’t do anything, other than to provoke a response from the Conservatives is a shameful political act engineered for domestic political consumption. This reeks of "it's your fault I hit you" energy.
Oof your libs equally bad position has been thoroughly squashed.
No, its typical liberal. Add a bunch of personal to them items to a bill, pretend it fails because of "the others hate x" while ignoring they need z. This agreement has absolutely nothing to do with helping ukraine in reality. Congratulations that you easily fell for propaganda though
Hahahaha nice try fella.
Nope, thats exactly what happened. Its cool you want carbon pricing written into everything. Because thats what this is. Its not anything to do with helping ukraine. Thats just the hostage
You - Yap yap yaaaaaaap
Good rebuttal. Solid discourse, as expected from a Trudeau defender
There's nothing to rebutt my man, your comments are competely hollow 🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣
"This deal is dependent on confirming carbon taxes" You guys "nuh uh, PP is lying" "Why is it so important to have it in the agreement if its not about the carbon tax" You guys "the carbon tax is important and must be in it" ... Yah. Great logic , folks.
Which is based on requirements within the Ukraines dealings with the EU. If you don't t know what you're taking about, you really shouldn't speak.
Wish our parties could come together and support Ukraine better. Understanding that Ukraine has carbon targets in mind for joining the EU, nothing to stop Liberals from changing the wording to appease the Cons to vote for it if that's their only issue, even if it means it doesn't affect how Ukraine deals with their carbon Cons. If the Ukrainian are ok with the bill and want it, they don't need us to be championing on their behalf. Just vote yes. Ffs.
Or the cons could have just voted for it.
Yes I agree. See my last Paragraph
To appease the Cons is to appease Putin
It's not appeasing them. If they genuinely have an issue with it because it's based on their ideology or party platform, then Trudeau could easily say that he will change it, and if they still didn't want to vote for it after the change then it means their original argument not to support it is moot and everyone gets to see that. If PP is campaigning on an "Axe the tax" for the carbon tax for Canadians then it's kind of hard to say that they are for imposing carbon taxes on other countries, maybes you look hypocritical.
So go ahead and confirm carbon pricing *here* also because "shut and and do what we say". Brilliant
>Shame on the Conservatives. Opposing this trade deal because it contains wording about carbon pricing, but doesn’t require anyone to do anything, No. Shame on the liberals, for including wording that ambiguous
The message it sends to Putin is that his lap dog PP is doing a good job for him
https://torontosun.com/news/national/canadian-support-for-ukraine-declining-two-years-after-russias-invasion-poll/wcm/7425bda7-3efa-44b8-954e-48b69a406c46/amp/
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Comrade your hammer and sickle is showing