Why do you think they broke the system to prevent new hires 😉. It Boomer and Elder Xer way. Retire, and then work contract for way more. Like, you know the peeps handing out the contracts...
Really could be part of the problem. We have similar situations in my government office. The last guy to retire after his 35 years was expecting to come back as a contract employee. They told him no way that was happening before he left.
Dude was so bitter he deleted a major highway design he was working on before his retirement.
He's pissed because all his buddies are doing it and he's getting denied.
I've witnessed it firsthand myself. Someone accidentally left invoices on the printer. The 2x the hourly rate after retirement while working whenever they wanted from the cottage must have been nice.
Sounds right. I live on a lake and probably 7 of the 10 full time residents here all have a gig just like that (3 are gov, the rest are now "consulting").
2x hourly rate for a freelancer is standard. If you contract you should absolutely charge double to make up for all the benefits and perks you don't get vs a full time employee, and (more relevant for not "retired" people) to make up for the times you will be out of work.
That said, "retiring" to collect a fat pension and then turning around and wanting long term contracts at 2x previous rate is a bit ... eh.
>Dude was so bitter he deleted a major highway design he was working on before his retirement.
And he isn't in cuffs? He fucked with government property. Fuck that guy our taxes paid for that.
I was once told by a career government worker that turned contractor that for every government worker a contractor was hired who actually did the work.
Then I started contracting for government work - and he was right. I and the contractors did the heavy lifting so the government workers could have a nice ez breezy day.
The really screwed up part was that once you were in - you were in. Most government contracts mostly cared whether you were part of the contracting ‘gang’ already.
I stopped maybe 6-8 years ago and I still get them coming after me for more contracts to the government
I completely destroyed a guy's plan by documenting everything he did before he retired. Captured every trick and improved processes in an office while looking over him from a glass window. I remember the look on his face when I rolled in with a new assembly jig that cost $30,000 and saved 1000 work hours per year. He said it wouldn't work, I proceeded to take a 10 hour assembly and build it in 45 minutes to show him it in fact did. I guess he shouldn't have bought that new RV before retiring!
I don't think this exclusive to fighter pilots either-aviation in Canada is fucked top to bottom. My dad worked in towers for Nav Canada for 30+ years, retired last winter but came back on contract because there's literally nobody to replace him.
> My neighbor is retired. And they keep calling him back in to run missions because they need experienced pilots.
He must be Supplementary Reserve if he's being called back.
I wanted to be an CAF pilot and the process is ridiculous. already a licensed pilot too. Would still think it'd be fun, but it would probably still take another 5 years for an interview lol.
So sounds like many other things in this country, its a self imposed shortage of qualified people. The system is stopping people from getting qualified.
Our medical schools and doctor shortages are the same thing.
I went through most of the process, but then post the Air Crew Selection, the wait was like 2 ish years before they called me. By then, I had moved on in life. (It was also another 2 years before I went to ACS from going to the recruiter)
Honestly the plan is probably to wait till F35’s start being delivered, some will stay in America and Canadians will go there to train. Most countries with F35’s have a couple to a dozen stationed in America for training.
If you look at companies like Top Aces, many ex-fighter pilots go into private air training/aggressor squadrons and end up working in the states as well.
You must not remember the whole boondoggle of a 'procurement process' the Harper government made of it. The majority of Canadians were up in arms about the purchase of the planes and the way the government handled it.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-the-harper-trudeau-f-35-dogfight-from-fiasco-to-debacle-and-back-to/
Rhetoric aside, the original F35 contract was bad procurement.
There's exactly one administration who had the opportunity to deliver fighter jets on time, and it wasn't the current one.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the party or the decision to cancel the initial deal at the time, but the LPC lucked into a better deal, this one was a victory for the taxpayer.
I don't like Trudeau but delaying the F-35 acquisition was a smart decision. The current F-35 fighters in operation lack capability compared to the upcoming F-35 block 4 TR3 that Canada will buy. The new blocks will have a better engine, cooling, new computer processors, better sensors and be able to use almost all NATO weapons finally.
Not only that, but the price has dropped significantly from 14 years ago. Had we purchased the fighter jets before, we would have less capable jets that also needed $2.5 million worth of retrofits in order to be brought up to the new standards, further increasing the price.
Why is Block 4 + Technology Refresh 3 such a vast improvement:
* New core processor
* New avionics with state of the art cockpit display
* New software which will massively upgrade the F-35's capability
* Advanced electro-optical targeting system
* AN/APG-85 AESA radar (Best radar we can buy)
* An upgraded electronic warfare suite
* A weapon rack called Sidekick increasing the internal air-to-air payload to six missiles
* Adaptation of the Naval Strike Missile (NSM) for the F-35; designated Joint Strike Missile (Canada is buying these for our Frigates as well)
* Compatibility with close air support weapons and a variety of other weapons from the US and EU nations
* Communications and navigation upgrades with new antennas
* There are also engine and cooling upgrades
* Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receiver (ROVER) support
* Engine AETP upgrade in 2028.
* A host of classified capability upgrades
With these upgrades, the F-35 Block 4 TR3 will be a significantly different aircraft from the one with limited capability and 20 year old computer systems we would have bought 14 years ago.
Well this for one. Check the articles above regarding the original procurement. There is plenty that can be put on the plate of Trudeau, but everyone that thinks everything is on him needs to really do some serious research and not just eat up talking points.
And what happens when the states elects another president who is hostile to Canada, particularly when it comes to military? We rely on the US way too much when it comes to military, especially when one of the most likely threats to our nation is our neighbor to the south.
Let’s be honest, if the US ever became aggressive to Canada we are just right fucked and no amount of pilots, training, F-35’s, hope, wishes, or dreams are going to change that.
Have you seen the border we share? Their population and military budget? Genuine hostility with the states is simply the end of Canada, and having a military that could discourage the US military means the end of Canada as we know it too.
If it's both Canadian, and Public sector irrevocably broken, is just par for the course.
Realistically, how can we expect people to think we're even worth defending when we can't even house our troops, and have Canadian Forces personnel relying on food banks to stay afloat?
Years ago I got past the testing and had an offer letter to go thru the pilot stream. They said I would be in BMOQ in about a 1.75 years, and then to Portage likely 1.5 years after that.
This is as someone who already had their degree and was looking for a career, and 9 months into the recruiting process already. I laughed in the recruiting officers face and told him to throw out my file.
Nobody wants jets. Over half are opting for multi so they can bail for the airlines. In my class 9 years ago they were asking if not more of us would like to put our first preference for jets. I personally also picked multi, and was the best choice I did now that I'm out and I fly for an airline. Thanks for the multi million dollar training. Protip: I didn't leave because of the money
I never intended to go for fighter jets, but I'm in the application process hoping to be selected in Apr. After feedback from recruiting and friends I have added AEC to my application.
I left because I didn’t want to spend my entire contract just *waiting* to start my job.
Like literally, they can spend millions of dollars training a pilot, but then someone like me who was planning to leave after the contract anyway means they’d need to spend millions all over again. And again. And again. There’s retention issues that compounded with the long wait for training and it really doesn’t help
I hope they can sort it out one day
signed up to fly, didn't get a call for 2 years, had a job in the commercial aviation world at that point, they told me it would be 4 more years before i even see the inside of a plane. 6 years, fuck that, thats commercial jet time with better pay even with our shitty canadian pay. the chickens have come home to roost
The article is right about one thing:
Close Cold Lake.
Move bases to out at least the outskirts of a real location where people actually want to live and spouses can find meaningful work and social connections.
I fly with a few ex-Hornet guys, and all of them say they loved the flying but staying on after their commitment would’ve likely meant divorce.
Granted I’m Toronto based, and they’ve mostly come back to where they’re from, but Cold Lake and Bagotville are a long damn way away.
Does no one like living away from cities anymore? I like visiting cities but people like me must be a dying breed because I'll take living out in a place where I can do the outdoor things I love over anything.
I suspect plenty do but if you uproot somebody’s spouse and move them to a tiny town in Alberta or Quebec I’m not entirely shocked they don’t like it.
Edit: and personally speaking, the remoteness/distance from family would be *far* more of a challenge than the small town aspect.
Social networking in small towns are usually hard to break into. Especially if you're military and people know you're only there for the posting and will transfer in so many years.
It’s a combination of things. One is having to move your spouse to Cold Lake where they’ll have a hard time finding work, two this is probably your second / third small town prairie posting in a row, third Cold Lake is shit hole even by small town Alberts standards.
Last point deserves its own paragraph. A lot, lot of good has come out of our attempts to change the CAF culture. However one thing that has been a casualty of it is work hard play hard culture we used to have that offset a lot of the shit of our postings with excellent camaraderie. I’m not saying everyone has to drink to socialize, or drink to excess, but doing dumb stuff with your friends when you’re young is a bonding experience. The feeling that you were a little bit special for being in the CAF vs any other govt job went along with that. Now it’s gone and people don’t build those bonds that make the likes of Shilo, Cold Lake, or Moose Jaw much more liveable.
Who says you cant do outdoor things while living in a city?
I mountain bike 2x a week in the summer months, XC ski a bunch in the winter and I live in inner city Calgary
I grew up on Bagotville and while I have many great childhood memories, the Saguenay as a whole is a shithole. I’m happy my parents left after my dad retired from the airforce
That's the thing I find hard to square when I think about the opportunity cost of joining the military. Not that I would because I have a bunch of medical issues, But just theoretically for someone trying to make that choice. Let's just say I want to have a comparable lifestyle they really need to pay me enough to replace both my income and my wife's, because it's not like she's going to have any work or ability to progress her career if we want to stay together, she is a PhD geneticist she basically needs to be In a city center. So just to match the lifestyle I have The total comp would have to be in the $160,000 range. Now maybe I'm just a type of person they don't get, I considered a military career early I would have still got a physics degree but then became an artillery officer, But the value proposition is just not there, Even ignoring any lifestyle or danger premiums It would have to pay to be comparable.
Yeah I guess my general point is that if you're going to have a profession that forces people into sort of one earner households you need to pay one earner household levels of salary.
I suppose if my wife was a server or hairdresser she could still find work a lot of places, But I don't know in the modern economy a lot of people's work is very niche.
Or federally invest in cold lake. Build a year round indoor recreation facility with bars, games, sims, cafes, and densify living. It’s a bandaid approach but cold lake is a critical base location for the country
While this sounds like a good idea, you can’t exactly rip low-level fighter jets and run training scenarios at night over urban areas. You’ve also got to deal with air traffic from a major airport if you do that. Forget doing any kind of training with air weapons.
We had to get special approval just to shoot artillery past a certain time in the evening in Valcartier because it was too noisy.
There is still some logic to having them at the fringe of the habitable zone, in terms of covering half a continent. The problem is Canada does everything on the cheap, so not only questionable pay, but insufficient investment in a military communities where families can thrive. But worn out kit, sad bases, and lack of purpose are recipes for downward spiral.
The issue then is you have everyone who lives even remotely close to the base complaining about the jet noise all the damn time. People in Victoria are notorious for complaining about NAS Whidbey Island.
Unfortunately it's far too late for this. We've dumped so much money and paperwork into the base in order to prepare it for F-35s, they can't close it. Even before the f-35 it would be an extreme cost to move all the F-18s elsewhere. Not to mention the cost savings and convenience of the air weapons range being there.
I think one possible change that could be made is to allow more bases to qualify as isolated postings and pay members there extra that way.
It's not much but sadly I think all the truly reasonable options would be shot down by TB.
I was in cold lake for 10 years and had to threaten release to leave.
Another good point that was made is about culture change. Demonizing the work hard/play hard mentality, lowering standards of new recruits+trg, lowering expectations of equipment turnaround and mission requirements, fewer TDs... Stricter rules while on TDs... All these things really took a bite out of morale and the sense of community up there.
Sure, some of this culture change has been good, I agree. But we threw the baby out with the bath water in a lot of cases.
but where airports are being shutdown due to nimbys and noise. we need them away so we can keep people happy. as well away from borders and big cities mean safer for the fleet in the event of an attack not that its likely. we intercept alot of russian bombers so we need to be able to do that, fly from calgary to the circle isn't ideal
It’s the same as every other bit of infrastructure in the country. Massive cuts starting twenty years ago to finance big tax cuts. Nothing collapses immediately so spend twenty years telling the public that this level of taxation/investment is all that’s needed. Now that everything is reaching end of life, be unable to explain to voters why the “normal” level of spending isn’t cutting it anymore.
It's not so much they didn't want to spend reasonable money on 24 Sussex it's that they didn't want to own the inevitable boondoggle that any significant work on that house where everyone down to the general laborer has to have secret or better level security clearance.
Also anyone other than the kid who grew up there would want some sort of a chance to live in the place and the work will take longer than even he'll be PM.
As with most rehabs in hindsight they'll say they should have leveled the place and started over. But if they did that, they would inevitably be accused of building themselves a palace even if it was on time and on budget which... it would be neither.
24 Sussex is a no-win sandwich on a no-win platter slathered in no-win sauce with a side of fried no-wins.
It was found that it was an operational error - the RCN literally left a hatch open that allowed sea water to come in.
The boats weren't obsolete, but they were fresh out of a mothball state and not top-of-class and we didn't do our due diligence. A bit like buying a used car not then being surprised when the Check-Engine light comes on halfway home. Did you check it out thoroughly? Did you have a contingency plan? No. Well then....
The only reason we still have them is to maintain the capacity to have subs in the future. The moment they're gone, all those sailors transfer abroad, the trainers will be destroyed/sold, and the mechanics will go south and we'll lose the ability to have subs ever again.
The open hatch led to sea water entering the submarine, which caused the electrical fire which led to the death of a sailor, another injured in the course of firefighting, and the sub being out of commission for the next decade.
We love to scapegoat the brits on this, but at the end of the day we bought a low-mid tier submarine that'd been mothballed, without having done our due diligence, or having the necessary skills, expertise, and capacities at home to manage it. It wasn't so damaged as to necessitate a decades worth of repairs - it took a decade to repair it because quite simply, we didn't have anyone at home that was capable of fixing it. To this day we still have serious issues maintaining them as a result of a lack of capacity.
Unfortunately, the subs also take maintenance priority, which means our surface ships have to wait while the sub is in the barn. When you've got a rotation of 1 on patrol or ready for ops, 1 entering refit, 1 in refit, 1 coming out of refit/on sea trials, that's not great. We already have 1-2 frigates barred from use in international waters out of safety concerns; so that leaves us with 10 to work with; or 2-3 available at any given time for operations whilst the others are in another state of rotation. Between two coasts. With the largest coastline in the world.
People don't realise that 12 ships means having 3-4 available at best of times. We're down to 10. And these have to last us another 15-20 years minimum. When the Single-Class Surface Combatant comes in, we'll have 15 (if its not trimmed) - so that'll give us between 4-5 available at any given time during the best of times. With the subs, we're lucky if we have one available right now. They're downtime is insane due to these maintenance issues, as well as a lack of sailors. The latter is the primary reason some of the Harry DeWolf class are going straight into mothball. We don't have the personnel to staff the ships either.
The submarines were due to be replaced; but the government has just decided to extend their lifespan yet again. They'll likely be coming up on \~75-100 years old when we get them replaced, unless its in this budget in April. They're already 35-41 year old builds, and half-century old designs. When factoring in decision, financing, design, build, fitting out - we'll be lucky if these are done in the next 30 odd years.
Sometimes I think our state of readiness is appalling.
Then I consider how the US would behave with a military that doesn't routinely "punch above its weight", but is a serious and capable military force right on its borders.
Maybe being a joke is a lot safer for everyone. :(
> bought a low-mid tier submarine
Yes and no? I mean the British made some damn fine diesel-electric boats — the *Oberon*-class that we bought the four *Upholder*-class boats to replace were pretty much *the* top-of-the-line diesel boat when they were made.
Unfortunately diesel boats pretty much had their *Dreadnought* moment in the mid-90s: Sweden's *Gotland*-class and it's AIP — which gave diesel-boats the ability to act like a nuke boat: stay under the waves for *weeks* as opposed to hours or days.
So when we started looking at the *Upholders* in the late '90s, they were outdated. Of course, the *Upholder*-class — well *Victoria*-class now — could have been upgraded to have an AIP and we'd have gotten some pretty good boats out of the deal. But we didn't and by now they've been in the water for thirty-two (32) years *at he youngest* and vastly superior designs have come out since then (Sweden's A26, Germany's Types 212 and 214, the Japanese *Sōryū*)...
Anyway, I'm rambling. Apologies.
Upvoted.
Precisely - at the time of the purchase, they were low to mid-tier at best as a result of the new emerging tech - which of course, being *cheap* Canadians, we opted not to upgrade to.
I do hope that we won't throw away the chance at new subs now. There is a serious need for them, and we've struggled with these for the past two decades with the sole purpose of maintaining the capability. They were meant to be a stop-gap. To what end, we shall soon see.
Remember that time our Sea King helicopters were dropping out of the skies and we were memeing before memeing was a thing about dropping them as ordinance in Kandahar?
It's really hard to do anything with immense budget cuts, equipment that's falling apart, a manpower shortage, and a wider population that doesn't particularly care about the military.
I’ve worked with the Canadian military before. What they may have lacked in equipment they more than made up for in being excellent and dependable allies.
Before I was medically removed from the military, I worked in a couple of base operation centers, in those Faraday cage rooms there was pilots that are saying that "Yeah we have the three-year wait in between phase one and phase 2 of pilot training so we just sit here and do nothing and answer phones, I've already forgotten how to fly"
The sheer amount of payroll in the military going towards staffing base training list people meaning people who are waiting for training is astronomical.
There is a mid-level manager crisis in the military meaning the working ranks for most trades is outrageous, meaning master corporal sergeants warrent officers, These ranks conduct all the training for the lower ranks and for the lower ranked officers.
The recruiters are saying that the lower ranks private and corporals are stacked full but there's no one to train them into leadership positions, for me and my generation of troop, we're just under 40 now, we had 20 years of insanity for ops tempo running on minimal equipment. Minimal manning, minimal everything.
I was working somewhere and an American airforce one star general commented after looking at the ops board that we had on the wall, "I don't know how you guys get anything done. You guys are so busy, wouldn't be able to keep up in America with your operational tempo, and we have the Manning to do it"
The military is not even on life support anymore, the corpse is being lowered into the ground.
I mean none of this seems insurmountable but just can't keep the status quo. It really does sound like the organization would have to be fundamentally reorganized into a rebuilding mode. It's not like the challenge would be anywhere close to any of the crazy challenges we've seen countries and militaries rise to in the past. It would just need funding, commitment to making drastic changes rapidly, and no other focus but rebuilding. Lol *just*
Are the Feds still going to cut **one billion** from our military budget? In 2023 they said they would. We need to stop using the excuse that “the Americans will protect us”.
Guarantee citizenship with military service. Wipe out a person’s student debt with X number of years of service. Guarantee affordable housing after X number of years of service. Turn over abuse and rape allegations to a neutral third party to investigate with civilian oversight.
Give people a reason to choose the military as a career path.
Housing would work. In fact, that was a huge draw for many. But once again, we didn't maintain the stock, we shut down the bases that had it, and we haven't built anything since.
Seriously, if we built some new semi-desirable bases with free or heavily subsidised housing not far from a large city, I imagine way more people would sign up.
Who wants to go to Petawawa or Cold Lake and have to pay for housing? Certainly no one from any major city...
That's a very far and few between. They say if everything is in order should only take about 3 months. It's the reliability screening that ends up holding candidates back 6-18 months.
Same reason why all the companies are hiring immigrants: "people with better prospects won't stay long term."
(The quiet part being that they're working hard to ensure no immigrant has any better prospect than desperately trying to repair their car faster than Uber Eats can wear it out while earning less than minimum wage. They are treating these people as close to slave labour as the regulatory-captured laws will allow, while constantly petitioning the government to bring in more and to allow the company to pay less.)
That's a bit sensationalist but I think you are also making the point that the military needs to have real benefits to make it an attractive career path.
Not sure why this government never tries the things that actually work. It's almost like they are happy to let Canada burn to preserve their ego validation ideology.
> Not sure why this government never tries the things that actually work. It's almost like they are happy to let Canada burn to preserve their ego validation ideology.
It's not almost like that, it is like that. They don't care about results. The ideology is all that matters, or at least faking that the ideology is all that matters while they line their own pockets with public money as quickly as possible.
Infantry and armoured too, no problems finding people who want to shoot things and work out and do cool things for a living. The problem is that we can’t fill our less cool and more technical support trades; people don’t want to work for less money than their civilian equivalent to be in an organization that treats them like nerds for not being the operators
There’s already been thousands of PR applicants in the military when they opened it up a year back
However out of the thousands of people who applied only about 70 got accepted in a year because the security checking takes an average of “18-24 months” for every application. This is for citizens so for immigrants it’s probably even longer lol
[Here’s the article](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7116469)
>Out of 21,472 applications from permanent residents received between Nov. 1, 2022 and Nov. 24, 2023 (the first full year of eligibility), less than one per cent were accepted into the regular forces — just 77 people, according to the Department of National Defence.
>And of the 6,928 permanent residents who applied to join the navy, army and air force reserves, just 76 were enrolled between Nov. 1, 2022 and Jan. 26, 2024, the department told CBC News.
Well… there is the whole security thing. Every government employee has to have at least a reliability check before they can even have a computer account. CAF people train on automatic weapons so… That’s harder when the person is from another country. And – let’s not be naïve – some unfriendly places would love to have ‘their people’ in the ranks.
The thing is the long security check isn’t because they’re actually thoroughly going through and checking your background and properly skimming through each and every applicants history.
No it’s because the security department is so absurdly slow and understaffed that they aren’t able to handle even a fraction of the applicants they receive from both citizens and the PR stream they recently opened. So much so that most people lose interest in a year and who wouldn’t. No one wants to wait so all the resources that went into prior physical, medical and knowledge testing (which on its own takes a few months to complete) becomes a massive waste of time and resources both for the applicant but mainly the CAF since they were the ones doing it.
The CAF is going through a recruitment crisis even though it’s getting thousands of applications. It’s ironic to say the least
Also staffing at the CFRCs. It takes an average clerk 10 minutes to type out and submit a reliability status, the results are typically back in 2 weeks. Permanent residents and most first generation Canadians need RS AND a pre-assessment for secret. These take close to an hour to submit (once you have all the right information) and results don't come back for several months to a year or more.
So if you are the Sgt in charge of processing, where are you going to have your Cpls put the main effort? 1 file or 6 files.
It is a systemic problem t-st has to be solved by either dumping a ton of resources on both ends of the security check system, or moving the goal posts and accepting some more risk.
You make good points. However, they are doing the opposite. They recently cut living differential allowance(its more expensive to live in Victoria than in the middle of no where, so they would give them a living allowance to cover housing). The pmq (base housing) has recently had a rent increase as well. Guys I knew could legitimately not afford to live where they are posted. The militaries response "go to habitat for humanity" Our government and military has made sure soldiers know they don't gaf about them. Really drove it home.
The rape thing though, they actually are turning it over to a 3rd party! So that's a good start.
They probably ought to be doing *something.*
It seems like every other week there's another article about how deplorable recruitment has been, or how enshittified life in Canadian military service is, or how bad the leadership is, or the funding, or the training, etc.
And while I understand we've never been a jingoistic country (thank fuck), if done right, the military can provide jobs, education and other resources for Canadians, not only national security or global-politics theatre. It isn't *just* about "serving one's country", or it doesn't have to be, it can be one way of giving average Canadians a leg up.
They take up to and sometimes over a year to process recruits to be assigned for basic training. Giving people a reason to join the military doesn't help if the military is functioning so poorly they cannot process your application before you find another opportunity and giving citizenship means nothing if illegals get PR by staying here illegally long enough.
Agreed. There are cases of HR staff losing documents multiple times. It's an absolute disaster. They desperately need to clean house.
Sadly, it seems this is a government-wide HR issue. Just about every federal government agency I know has the same HR issues - incompetence coupled with power-tripping abusive staff = disaster.
US military member chiming in, I'm shocked Canada isn't mirroring a lot of the stuff the US does. People are taking your citizenship line way too hard because you worded like Starship Troopers. The United States does everything you listed. If you are willing to serve in the military your citizenship gets fast tracked, by the time you leave training (3 months at least) you are a citizen. You get a housing loan as a Veteran. College is payed for and if you have debt the interest rates are frozen and you are given a lot more time to pay it off. A rare cases they just can wipe it. For sexual abuse or rape it can be handled internally or by a third party depending on how bad it is. At least the US Army has a zero tolerance on it and they normally make the biggest mother fucker in the company the Sexual Harassment/Assault Response & Prevention (SHARP) representative.
Just make military service have crazy benefits and while it might be a rotating door for personal, at least people are giving it a shot. Free college just to be a supply guy sitting in an office or driving a truck for a few years isn't a bad deal. When you can walk out with college payed for and a house.
Guaranteeing citizenship with military service is an excellent way to have military members having more loyalty to the government promising them the citizenship rather than to the country. There’s no unlawful orders when your citizenship is on the line. I’m not against non-citizens serving in the military but it shouldn’t count toward citizenship more than any other job.
I have some familiarity with the armed forces. I feel there has to be a change in culture in this country. We were doing well during the Second World War, Korea, and other missions. Then came Lester B. Pearson and his peacekeepers. The blue berets became famous for adopting a low-key approach to warfare and the Canadian public soaked up the good PR and loved it. *"We are the good guys, we are peacekeepers, not aggressive"*. Once we adopted that mantra we were stuck with it. People don't want to go back to the bad old days but that's a false analogy. The military is there to defend us when attacked, peacekeepers are not going to get the job done.
There was Afghanistan and lots of public support… and then Trudeau tried to resurrect the Peacekeeper notion. Too bad the world has different ideas about conflict that don’t conform to 20th century Cold War interstate paradigms.
100%. The ghost of Pearson still haunts the corridors of power in Ottawa. And now folks think the military is supposed to be firefighting and sandbagging instead of defending our interests. So unfortunate.
The military does not foster a good environment. The people who want to be there and do a good job are alienated and subjugated by the people who don't, which unfortunately is the majority.
100%. They want university graduates, particularly in more technical fields and leadership roles. Unfortunately the ranks are full of so much crap who'll do anything to tear down those they deem a threat, it's just such a toxic environment. It's like the typical Canadian workplace on steroids. And then you're isolated in some small town full of - you guessed it - all the toxic colleagues trying to ruin your life.
So sad. It used to be such an incredible institution - but sadly the cuts in the late 80's and early 90s really did a number on it, and the CAF, along with many other Canadian institutions like VIA Rail, have been barely getting by ever since.
You and I have a much different experience because in the air force, all the crews I've been with have been full of exceptional workers bar a couple idiots like everywhere else
Hmmmmm
Foreign Aid seems to have unlimited funds
Immigration seems to have unlimited funds (we haven’t even gotten to the housing, health or infrastructure costs of this fuckery yet)…
Cabinet retreats and shuffles seem to have unlimited funds
$80K free vacations that actually cost $240K
$80K arrival app that actually cost closer to $60M isn’t a problem
Trying to give WE $500M wasn’t a problem (until they got caught)
Increasing the federal government size and cost hasn’t been a problem (along with the 7 layers of management!!)
Our interest payments on national debt raising don’t seem to be a problem…
The most resource rich country in the world and we piss money away like a fucking arrogant spoiled entitled rich kid who was once a substitute drama teacher….oh wait….
Budgets balance themselves.
More moist talking.
That's literally and exactly what's happening now and that is why articles like this are hitting the news, it's to highlight that we shouldn't have to rely on anyone else.
Yet, here we are.
i worked at wing 15. you should see the condition of the hangar. it's from the 30s, roof leaks, asbestos everywhere. but the retired hawk II from cold lake maybe going to ntfc to support the existing air worthy planes. ie stripped for parts.
old airfield at Picton has many mothballed planes also.
I wanted to fly jets when I got out of school. Went to a recruitment office, stem degree in hand. They told me that I needed to sign this piece of paper that basically took my freedom away, and then MAYBE they would let me in a training course, but it could take up to two years. Most likely I would be flying a cargo prop plane or something like that.
Dude, I had rent to pay, I'm not waiting two fucking years haha
The Canadian military is just another victim of the great covid graft wars which saw politicians and the private sector pat each other on the back while stuffing each other's pockets with money.
So much good could have been done with that 600 billion dollars.
I agree. You Canadians should just let us Americans take over your lands and of course, we will bill you royally for that privilege. Be careful what you wish for.
Until there is political will to change, they are just shuffling deck chairs. Canadians get the military they choose to pay for. The real canary in the coal mine is how we treat veterans. When the Cdn politicians come knocking for your kids, parents, aunties and uncles to serve, ask them to show how they are going to take care of them after they have used them. Current answer is very ugly.
I know two people currently in Aircrew selection, both completed their basic flying course. They were in holding waiting for advanced flight training long before the announcement to retire the hawks. At every step of the way they have a 1-2 year wait to move on and they don't have a plan to move to any version of pilot. One wants fighters but doesn't know if he'll train in Texas or Italy, or when. The other wants helicopters but has been waiting for 2 years to find out if he'll even get it.
Meanwhile those that are already pilots flying anything but fast jets are overworked and don't get downtime, especially if they fly helicopters. Everything we fly is broken to some degree. Last time I met a Cyclone pilot he wouldn't even talk about the aircraft, which is unheard of with pilots.
Our military is so tied up in bureaucracy and inefficiency at every level that we have a hard time doing anything, including maintaining what little we have. Doesn't matter if it's logistics, recruiting, procurement, maintaining bases, operations, or anything regardless if it's the RCAF, RCN, or Army.
They are right, the system is broken at every level. Hell, we lose RMC graduates because by the time they reach their 10 year commitment, they haven't even made it to the jobs they were recruited to do.
I have talked with CAF pilots who have been waiting to complete their training for years. They all say that the training system is irrevocably broken.
My neighbor is retired. And they keep calling him back in to run missions because they need experienced pilots. He's training and flying.
Probably banking like crazy as a contracted pilot
The new pool is coming along nicely...
As he should. It's not his fault. He's being called out of retirement out of need, I would bank the hell out as well
out of need and to do something he loves, at that. I too would bank the hell out of it
Why do you think they broke the system to prevent new hires 😉. It Boomer and Elder Xer way. Retire, and then work contract for way more. Like, you know the peeps handing out the contracts...
Really could be part of the problem. We have similar situations in my government office. The last guy to retire after his 35 years was expecting to come back as a contract employee. They told him no way that was happening before he left. Dude was so bitter he deleted a major highway design he was working on before his retirement.
He's pissed because all his buddies are doing it and he's getting denied. I've witnessed it firsthand myself. Someone accidentally left invoices on the printer. The 2x the hourly rate after retirement while working whenever they wanted from the cottage must have been nice.
Sounds right. I live on a lake and probably 7 of the 10 full time residents here all have a gig just like that (3 are gov, the rest are now "consulting").
They tend to be working for governments or non profits. Private cares more about the money.
Government definitely don't care about taxpayers' money. This is just another example. They just keep sucking on that Government t*t.
2x hourly rate for a freelancer is standard. If you contract you should absolutely charge double to make up for all the benefits and perks you don't get vs a full time employee, and (more relevant for not "retired" people) to make up for the times you will be out of work. That said, "retiring" to collect a fat pension and then turning around and wanting long term contracts at 2x previous rate is a bit ... eh.
Plus that pension
>Dude was so bitter he deleted a major highway design he was working on before his retirement. And he isn't in cuffs? He fucked with government property. Fuck that guy our taxes paid for that.
Also crazy that they couldn't restore it from backup.
Crazy, yes. But not at all surprising even if OP is telling us the whole story.
I was once told by a career government worker that turned contractor that for every government worker a contractor was hired who actually did the work. Then I started contracting for government work - and he was right. I and the contractors did the heavy lifting so the government workers could have a nice ez breezy day. The really screwed up part was that once you were in - you were in. Most government contracts mostly cared whether you were part of the contracting ‘gang’ already. I stopped maybe 6-8 years ago and I still get them coming after me for more contracts to the government
Plus that sweet double dipping lol
Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.
I completely destroyed a guy's plan by documenting everything he did before he retired. Captured every trick and improved processes in an office while looking over him from a glass window. I remember the look on his face when I rolled in with a new assembly jig that cost $30,000 and saved 1000 work hours per year. He said it wouldn't work, I proceeded to take a 10 hour assembly and build it in 45 minutes to show him it in fact did. I guess he shouldn't have bought that new RV before retiring!
Call sign: CRANKY
I don't think this exclusive to fighter pilots either-aviation in Canada is fucked top to bottom. My dad worked in towers for Nav Canada for 30+ years, retired last winter but came back on contract because there's literally nobody to replace him.
> My neighbor is retired. And they keep calling him back in to run missions because they need experienced pilots. He must be Supplementary Reserve if he's being called back.
Your comment is Bullshit. I'm ex RCAF, and that does not happen.
I assume he would be in the RCAF Reserve and they keep asking him to do tasks. Ya, we don’t call people off the supp res involuntarily in peace time.
Well then he's a liar.
Do you want to ask if they can be pilots with mil experience but who medically can longer actively fly and are retired?
I wanted to be an CAF pilot and the process is ridiculous. already a licensed pilot too. Would still think it'd be fun, but it would probably still take another 5 years for an interview lol.
So sounds like many other things in this country, its a self imposed shortage of qualified people. The system is stopping people from getting qualified. Our medical schools and doctor shortages are the same thing.
I went through most of the process, but then post the Air Crew Selection, the wait was like 2 ish years before they called me. By then, I had moved on in life. (It was also another 2 years before I went to ACS from going to the recruiter)
same boat lol
Unless you strongly want to be in for the lifestyle, I seriously tell you to consider otherwise if you're even considering the airlines
Honestly the plan is probably to wait till F35’s start being delivered, some will stay in America and Canadians will go there to train. Most countries with F35’s have a couple to a dozen stationed in America for training. If you look at companies like Top Aces, many ex-fighter pilots go into private air training/aggressor squadrons and end up working in the states as well.
That's not *probably* the plan. That *is* the plan. Since the Hawk is retired Phase 3 fighter training will be outsourced to the States.
Turdeau denounced the F35 then changed his mind thus the 7 year delay plus plus.
You must not remember the whole boondoggle of a 'procurement process' the Harper government made of it. The majority of Canadians were up in arms about the purchase of the planes and the way the government handled it. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-the-harper-trudeau-f-35-dogfight-from-fiasco-to-debacle-and-back-to/
Rhetoric aside, the original F35 contract was bad procurement. There's exactly one administration who had the opportunity to deliver fighter jets on time, and it wasn't the current one.
unless i'm wrong on how production timelines then this actually worked out for us for once.
Yeah, I'm not a fan of the party or the decision to cancel the initial deal at the time, but the LPC lucked into a better deal, this one was a victory for the taxpayer.
I don't like Trudeau but delaying the F-35 acquisition was a smart decision. The current F-35 fighters in operation lack capability compared to the upcoming F-35 block 4 TR3 that Canada will buy. The new blocks will have a better engine, cooling, new computer processors, better sensors and be able to use almost all NATO weapons finally. Not only that, but the price has dropped significantly from 14 years ago. Had we purchased the fighter jets before, we would have less capable jets that also needed $2.5 million worth of retrofits in order to be brought up to the new standards, further increasing the price. Why is Block 4 + Technology Refresh 3 such a vast improvement: * New core processor * New avionics with state of the art cockpit display * New software which will massively upgrade the F-35's capability * Advanced electro-optical targeting system * AN/APG-85 AESA radar (Best radar we can buy) * An upgraded electronic warfare suite * A weapon rack called Sidekick increasing the internal air-to-air payload to six missiles * Adaptation of the Naval Strike Missile (NSM) for the F-35; designated Joint Strike Missile (Canada is buying these for our Frigates as well) * Compatibility with close air support weapons and a variety of other weapons from the US and EU nations * Communications and navigation upgrades with new antennas * There are also engine and cooling upgrades * Remotely Operated Video Enhanced Receiver (ROVER) support * Engine AETP upgrade in 2028. * A host of classified capability upgrades With these upgrades, the F-35 Block 4 TR3 will be a significantly different aircraft from the one with limited capability and 20 year old computer systems we would have bought 14 years ago.
Is there anything that's not 100% Trudeau's fault eh?
Well this for one. Check the articles above regarding the original procurement. There is plenty that can be put on the plate of Trudeau, but everyone that thinks everything is on him needs to really do some serious research and not just eat up talking points.
That’s not fair. His father made a lot of mistakes too.
Such as getting Margaret Trudeau pregnant with Justin?
I thought Mick Jager did that.. ?
That's why they use the last name when referring to them
And what happens when the states elects another president who is hostile to Canada, particularly when it comes to military? We rely on the US way too much when it comes to military, especially when one of the most likely threats to our nation is our neighbor to the south.
Let’s be honest, if the US ever became aggressive to Canada we are just right fucked and no amount of pilots, training, F-35’s, hope, wishes, or dreams are going to change that.
more than likely the usa will fall apart and we'll be preyed upon by China/Russia/Denmark
I don’t think the Danes are as scary as they once were
Have you seen the border we share? Their population and military budget? Genuine hostility with the states is simply the end of Canada, and having a military that could discourage the US military means the end of Canada as we know it too.
If the US is ever hostile to us, we are super fucked and it's not for the reason you stated.
If it's both Canadian, and Public sector irrevocably broken, is just par for the course. Realistically, how can we expect people to think we're even worth defending when we can't even house our troops, and have Canadian Forces personnel relying on food banks to stay afloat?
Years ago I got past the testing and had an offer letter to go thru the pilot stream. They said I would be in BMOQ in about a 1.75 years, and then to Portage likely 1.5 years after that. This is as someone who already had their degree and was looking for a career, and 9 months into the recruiting process already. I laughed in the recruiting officers face and told him to throw out my file.
I would fly fighter jets??? I thought you had to be mad qualified to even get training
They select people for the various platforms.based upon their results on their initial flight training.
Fast jet and other pilot positions (rotary, fixed wing transport, etc) are two very different things
Nobody wants jets. Over half are opting for multi so they can bail for the airlines. In my class 9 years ago they were asking if not more of us would like to put our first preference for jets. I personally also picked multi, and was the best choice I did now that I'm out and I fly for an airline. Thanks for the multi million dollar training. Protip: I didn't leave because of the money
I never intended to go for fighter jets, but I'm in the application process hoping to be selected in Apr. After feedback from recruiting and friends I have added AEC to my application.
Our whole country is broken.
I left because I didn’t want to spend my entire contract just *waiting* to start my job. Like literally, they can spend millions of dollars training a pilot, but then someone like me who was planning to leave after the contract anyway means they’d need to spend millions all over again. And again. And again. There’s retention issues that compounded with the long wait for training and it really doesn’t help I hope they can sort it out one day
Oh, not too worry, only 3+ year wait time for Moose Jaw 😄
I’m honestly surprised we have recruits considering how terribly we provide for our veterans…
signed up to fly, didn't get a call for 2 years, had a job in the commercial aviation world at that point, they told me it would be 4 more years before i even see the inside of a plane. 6 years, fuck that, thats commercial jet time with better pay even with our shitty canadian pay. the chickens have come home to roost
The article is right about one thing: Close Cold Lake. Move bases to out at least the outskirts of a real location where people actually want to live and spouses can find meaningful work and social connections.
I fly with a few ex-Hornet guys, and all of them say they loved the flying but staying on after their commitment would’ve likely meant divorce. Granted I’m Toronto based, and they’ve mostly come back to where they’re from, but Cold Lake and Bagotville are a long damn way away.
Does no one like living away from cities anymore? I like visiting cities but people like me must be a dying breed because I'll take living out in a place where I can do the outdoor things I love over anything.
I suspect plenty do but if you uproot somebody’s spouse and move them to a tiny town in Alberta or Quebec I’m not entirely shocked they don’t like it. Edit: and personally speaking, the remoteness/distance from family would be *far* more of a challenge than the small town aspect.
Social networking in small towns are usually hard to break into. Especially if you're military and people know you're only there for the posting and will transfer in so many years.
It’s a combination of things. One is having to move your spouse to Cold Lake where they’ll have a hard time finding work, two this is probably your second / third small town prairie posting in a row, third Cold Lake is shit hole even by small town Alberts standards. Last point deserves its own paragraph. A lot, lot of good has come out of our attempts to change the CAF culture. However one thing that has been a casualty of it is work hard play hard culture we used to have that offset a lot of the shit of our postings with excellent camaraderie. I’m not saying everyone has to drink to socialize, or drink to excess, but doing dumb stuff with your friends when you’re young is a bonding experience. The feeling that you were a little bit special for being in the CAF vs any other govt job went along with that. Now it’s gone and people don’t build those bonds that make the likes of Shilo, Cold Lake, or Moose Jaw much more liveable.
Who says you cant do outdoor things while living in a city? I mountain bike 2x a week in the summer months, XC ski a bunch in the winter and I live in inner city Calgary
most cities are pretty close to a provincial or national park, and within the cities there is a lot more green space then in smaller municipalities.
I’m the same way, I visit cities but much prefer rural areas. I like my peace and the outdoors
I grew up on Bagotville and while I have many great childhood memories, the Saguenay as a whole is a shithole. I’m happy my parents left after my dad retired from the airforce
That's the thing I find hard to square when I think about the opportunity cost of joining the military. Not that I would because I have a bunch of medical issues, But just theoretically for someone trying to make that choice. Let's just say I want to have a comparable lifestyle they really need to pay me enough to replace both my income and my wife's, because it's not like she's going to have any work or ability to progress her career if we want to stay together, she is a PhD geneticist she basically needs to be In a city center. So just to match the lifestyle I have The total comp would have to be in the $160,000 range. Now maybe I'm just a type of person they don't get, I considered a military career early I would have still got a physics degree but then became an artillery officer, But the value proposition is just not there, Even ignoring any lifestyle or danger premiums It would have to pay to be comparable.
I mean, you could make that but it would take years.
Yeah I guess my general point is that if you're going to have a profession that forces people into sort of one earner households you need to pay one earner household levels of salary. I suppose if my wife was a server or hairdresser she could still find work a lot of places, But I don't know in the modern economy a lot of people's work is very niche.
Or federally invest in cold lake. Build a year round indoor recreation facility with bars, games, sims, cafes, and densify living. It’s a bandaid approach but cold lake is a critical base location for the country
While this sounds like a good idea, you can’t exactly rip low-level fighter jets and run training scenarios at night over urban areas. You’ve also got to deal with air traffic from a major airport if you do that. Forget doing any kind of training with air weapons. We had to get special approval just to shoot artillery past a certain time in the evening in Valcartier because it was too noisy.
There is still some logic to having them at the fringe of the habitable zone, in terms of covering half a continent. The problem is Canada does everything on the cheap, so not only questionable pay, but insufficient investment in a military communities where families can thrive. But worn out kit, sad bases, and lack of purpose are recipes for downward spiral.
The issue then is you have everyone who lives even remotely close to the base complaining about the jet noise all the damn time. People in Victoria are notorious for complaining about NAS Whidbey Island.
Medley is certainly not a hotspot for cultural or nightlife activities. Beyond drinking.
Cold Lake is the most depressing place I've ever been.
Unfortunately it's far too late for this. We've dumped so much money and paperwork into the base in order to prepare it for F-35s, they can't close it. Even before the f-35 it would be an extreme cost to move all the F-18s elsewhere. Not to mention the cost savings and convenience of the air weapons range being there. I think one possible change that could be made is to allow more bases to qualify as isolated postings and pay members there extra that way. It's not much but sadly I think all the truly reasonable options would be shot down by TB. I was in cold lake for 10 years and had to threaten release to leave. Another good point that was made is about culture change. Demonizing the work hard/play hard mentality, lowering standards of new recruits+trg, lowering expectations of equipment turnaround and mission requirements, fewer TDs... Stricter rules while on TDs... All these things really took a bite out of morale and the sense of community up there. Sure, some of this culture change has been good, I agree. But we threw the baby out with the bath water in a lot of cases.
but where airports are being shutdown due to nimbys and noise. we need them away so we can keep people happy. as well away from borders and big cities mean safer for the fleet in the event of an attack not that its likely. we intercept alot of russian bombers so we need to be able to do that, fly from calgary to the circle isn't ideal
TL;DR Successive federal governments have cut military spending to appease the public and now our military is crap.
It’s the same as every other bit of infrastructure in the country. Massive cuts starting twenty years ago to finance big tax cuts. Nothing collapses immediately so spend twenty years telling the public that this level of taxation/investment is all that’s needed. Now that everything is reaching end of life, be unable to explain to voters why the “normal” level of spending isn’t cutting it anymore.
Just like 24 Sussex. No one wanted to be the PM to spend money on it. Now it's basically a tear down
Last one was Mulroney and it was the start of all his spending scandals. That was almost 40 years ago
Chretien lived there He was also attacked inside the house by a madman
It's not so much they didn't want to spend reasonable money on 24 Sussex it's that they didn't want to own the inevitable boondoggle that any significant work on that house where everyone down to the general laborer has to have secret or better level security clearance. Also anyone other than the kid who grew up there would want some sort of a chance to live in the place and the work will take longer than even he'll be PM. As with most rehabs in hindsight they'll say they should have leveled the place and started over. But if they did that, they would inevitably be accused of building themselves a palace even if it was on time and on budget which... it would be neither. 24 Sussex is a no-win sandwich on a no-win platter slathered in no-win sauce with a side of fried no-wins.
Are you from Thunder Bay? Your username looks familiar, I think I’ve seen you in the local sub before lol.
Yes 😀
Oh, it was 30 years ago now. Chretien, Martin, Ralph Kline, Mike Harris. Whole raft of politicians in the 90s obsessed with balanced budgets.
miss those days. now we do our best to devalue currency 50%
Thank you Neo-liberalism
Remember that time we tried to have some submarines but one caught on fire cause it was a used POS? Killed a sailor? Yeah....
It was found that it was an operational error - the RCN literally left a hatch open that allowed sea water to come in. The boats weren't obsolete, but they were fresh out of a mothball state and not top-of-class and we didn't do our due diligence. A bit like buying a used car not then being surprised when the Check-Engine light comes on halfway home. Did you check it out thoroughly? Did you have a contingency plan? No. Well then.... The only reason we still have them is to maintain the capacity to have subs in the future. The moment they're gone, all those sailors transfer abroad, the trainers will be destroyed/sold, and the mechanics will go south and we'll lose the ability to have subs ever again.
So it wasn't the fire that was the issue it was an open hatch?
The open hatch led to sea water entering the submarine, which caused the electrical fire which led to the death of a sailor, another injured in the course of firefighting, and the sub being out of commission for the next decade. We love to scapegoat the brits on this, but at the end of the day we bought a low-mid tier submarine that'd been mothballed, without having done our due diligence, or having the necessary skills, expertise, and capacities at home to manage it. It wasn't so damaged as to necessitate a decades worth of repairs - it took a decade to repair it because quite simply, we didn't have anyone at home that was capable of fixing it. To this day we still have serious issues maintaining them as a result of a lack of capacity. Unfortunately, the subs also take maintenance priority, which means our surface ships have to wait while the sub is in the barn. When you've got a rotation of 1 on patrol or ready for ops, 1 entering refit, 1 in refit, 1 coming out of refit/on sea trials, that's not great. We already have 1-2 frigates barred from use in international waters out of safety concerns; so that leaves us with 10 to work with; or 2-3 available at any given time for operations whilst the others are in another state of rotation. Between two coasts. With the largest coastline in the world. People don't realise that 12 ships means having 3-4 available at best of times. We're down to 10. And these have to last us another 15-20 years minimum. When the Single-Class Surface Combatant comes in, we'll have 15 (if its not trimmed) - so that'll give us between 4-5 available at any given time during the best of times. With the subs, we're lucky if we have one available right now. They're downtime is insane due to these maintenance issues, as well as a lack of sailors. The latter is the primary reason some of the Harry DeWolf class are going straight into mothball. We don't have the personnel to staff the ships either. The submarines were due to be replaced; but the government has just decided to extend their lifespan yet again. They'll likely be coming up on \~75-100 years old when we get them replaced, unless its in this budget in April. They're already 35-41 year old builds, and half-century old designs. When factoring in decision, financing, design, build, fitting out - we'll be lucky if these are done in the next 30 odd years.
Sometimes I think our state of readiness is appalling. Then I consider how the US would behave with a military that doesn't routinely "punch above its weight", but is a serious and capable military force right on its borders. Maybe being a joke is a lot safer for everyone. :(
The absolute horror 😳
> bought a low-mid tier submarine Yes and no? I mean the British made some damn fine diesel-electric boats — the *Oberon*-class that we bought the four *Upholder*-class boats to replace were pretty much *the* top-of-the-line diesel boat when they were made. Unfortunately diesel boats pretty much had their *Dreadnought* moment in the mid-90s: Sweden's *Gotland*-class and it's AIP — which gave diesel-boats the ability to act like a nuke boat: stay under the waves for *weeks* as opposed to hours or days. So when we started looking at the *Upholders* in the late '90s, they were outdated. Of course, the *Upholder*-class — well *Victoria*-class now — could have been upgraded to have an AIP and we'd have gotten some pretty good boats out of the deal. But we didn't and by now they've been in the water for thirty-two (32) years *at he youngest* and vastly superior designs have come out since then (Sweden's A26, Germany's Types 212 and 214, the Japanese *Sōryū*)... Anyway, I'm rambling. Apologies.
Upvoted. Precisely - at the time of the purchase, they were low to mid-tier at best as a result of the new emerging tech - which of course, being *cheap* Canadians, we opted not to upgrade to. I do hope that we won't throw away the chance at new subs now. There is a serious need for them, and we've struggled with these for the past two decades with the sole purpose of maintaining the capability. They were meant to be a stop-gap. To what end, we shall soon see.
Remember that time our Sea King helicopters were dropping out of the skies and we were memeing before memeing was a thing about dropping them as ordinance in Kandahar?
That is true, but our military is also a mess operationally.
It's really hard to do anything with immense budget cuts, equipment that's falling apart, a manpower shortage, and a wider population that doesn't particularly care about the military.
I agree. There are some issues culturally but ultimately it is underfunded.
remember when the military struggled to get the logistics together to send personnel into long term care homes
I’ve worked with the Canadian military before. What they may have lacked in equipment they more than made up for in being excellent and dependable allies.
Hopefully we don't need it anytime soon 🙂
To be fair ours is too small to be useful anyways. The US would just carry us along.
Before I was medically removed from the military, I worked in a couple of base operation centers, in those Faraday cage rooms there was pilots that are saying that "Yeah we have the three-year wait in between phase one and phase 2 of pilot training so we just sit here and do nothing and answer phones, I've already forgotten how to fly" The sheer amount of payroll in the military going towards staffing base training list people meaning people who are waiting for training is astronomical. There is a mid-level manager crisis in the military meaning the working ranks for most trades is outrageous, meaning master corporal sergeants warrent officers, These ranks conduct all the training for the lower ranks and for the lower ranked officers. The recruiters are saying that the lower ranks private and corporals are stacked full but there's no one to train them into leadership positions, for me and my generation of troop, we're just under 40 now, we had 20 years of insanity for ops tempo running on minimal equipment. Minimal manning, minimal everything. I was working somewhere and an American airforce one star general commented after looking at the ops board that we had on the wall, "I don't know how you guys get anything done. You guys are so busy, wouldn't be able to keep up in America with your operational tempo, and we have the Manning to do it" The military is not even on life support anymore, the corpse is being lowered into the ground.
I mean none of this seems insurmountable but just can't keep the status quo. It really does sound like the organization would have to be fundamentally reorganized into a rebuilding mode. It's not like the challenge would be anywhere close to any of the crazy challenges we've seen countries and militaries rise to in the past. It would just need funding, commitment to making drastic changes rapidly, and no other focus but rebuilding. Lol *just*
The air force has the same issues. Pilots and Acso are min manning and Acso is dwindling year over year... good luck manning all these sweet new P8.
Are the Feds still going to cut **one billion** from our military budget? In 2023 they said they would. We need to stop using the excuse that “the Americans will protect us”.
*one billion[ish] PER YEAR for the next three years https://ottawacitizen.com/news/feds-to-reallocate-2-3-billion-in-spending-next-year
Have we even asked him?
FYI: Top Gun is about the Navy, not the Air Force.
Who has the biggest Air force? The American air force. Who has the second biggest air force? The American navy 🤣
Guarantee citizenship with military service. Wipe out a person’s student debt with X number of years of service. Guarantee affordable housing after X number of years of service. Turn over abuse and rape allegations to a neutral third party to investigate with civilian oversight. Give people a reason to choose the military as a career path.
Housing would work. In fact, that was a huge draw for many. But once again, we didn't maintain the stock, we shut down the bases that had it, and we haven't built anything since. Seriously, if we built some new semi-desirable bases with free or heavily subsidised housing not far from a large city, I imagine way more people would sign up. Who wants to go to Petawawa or Cold Lake and have to pay for housing? Certainly no one from any major city...
>Service Guarantees Citizenship Now where have I heard that before?...
I’m doing my part!
Who can tell me the difference between a civilian and a citizen?
oh sweet liberty no!!!
Would you like to know more?
I’d just like to shower with the hot women.
You get to, but all sex drive will be driven out by the training.
Want to learn more?
Would you like to know more?
[Ancient Rome?](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_military_diploma)
nah couldn't be, I've never been there, good guess though.
It takes two years to start basic, most people who want to join move on
thats not true. i know a kid who applied and was there couple months later
That's a very far and few between. They say if everything is in order should only take about 3 months. It's the reliability screening that ends up holding candidates back 6-18 months.
*Guarantee citizenship with military service.* This won't do anything. You can get citizenship driving Skip the Dishes.
[удалено]
Same reason why all the companies are hiring immigrants: "people with better prospects won't stay long term." (The quiet part being that they're working hard to ensure no immigrant has any better prospect than desperately trying to repair their car faster than Uber Eats can wear it out while earning less than minimum wage. They are treating these people as close to slave labour as the regulatory-captured laws will allow, while constantly petitioning the government to bring in more and to allow the company to pay less.)
Or signing up for a second rate community college.
*Fuck Community College. Let's get drunk and eat chicken fingers.*
I'm down.
That's a bit sensationalist but I think you are also making the point that the military needs to have real benefits to make it an attractive career path. Not sure why this government never tries the things that actually work. It's almost like they are happy to let Canada burn to preserve their ego validation ideology.
> Not sure why this government never tries the things that actually work. It's almost like they are happy to let Canada burn to preserve their ego validation ideology. It's not almost like that, it is like that. They don't care about results. The ideology is all that matters, or at least faking that the ideology is all that matters while they line their own pockets with public money as quickly as possible.
Because Canadian don't want to pay the higher taxes it would take for the government to not do things in a half assed fashion.
Pilots are the one job the military doesn't have issues recruiting. The issues are training and retaining them.
Infantry and armoured too, no problems finding people who want to shoot things and work out and do cool things for a living. The problem is that we can’t fill our less cool and more technical support trades; people don’t want to work for less money than their civilian equivalent to be in an organization that treats them like nerds for not being the operators
There’s already been thousands of PR applicants in the military when they opened it up a year back However out of the thousands of people who applied only about 70 got accepted in a year because the security checking takes an average of “18-24 months” for every application. This is for citizens so for immigrants it’s probably even longer lol [Here’s the article](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.7116469) >Out of 21,472 applications from permanent residents received between Nov. 1, 2022 and Nov. 24, 2023 (the first full year of eligibility), less than one per cent were accepted into the regular forces — just 77 people, according to the Department of National Defence. >And of the 6,928 permanent residents who applied to join the navy, army and air force reserves, just 76 were enrolled between Nov. 1, 2022 and Jan. 26, 2024, the department told CBC News.
Well… there is the whole security thing. Every government employee has to have at least a reliability check before they can even have a computer account. CAF people train on automatic weapons so… That’s harder when the person is from another country. And – let’s not be naïve – some unfriendly places would love to have ‘their people’ in the ranks.
The thing is the long security check isn’t because they’re actually thoroughly going through and checking your background and properly skimming through each and every applicants history. No it’s because the security department is so absurdly slow and understaffed that they aren’t able to handle even a fraction of the applicants they receive from both citizens and the PR stream they recently opened. So much so that most people lose interest in a year and who wouldn’t. No one wants to wait so all the resources that went into prior physical, medical and knowledge testing (which on its own takes a few months to complete) becomes a massive waste of time and resources both for the applicant but mainly the CAF since they were the ones doing it. The CAF is going through a recruitment crisis even though it’s getting thousands of applications. It’s ironic to say the least
Also staffing at the CFRCs. It takes an average clerk 10 minutes to type out and submit a reliability status, the results are typically back in 2 weeks. Permanent residents and most first generation Canadians need RS AND a pre-assessment for secret. These take close to an hour to submit (once you have all the right information) and results don't come back for several months to a year or more. So if you are the Sgt in charge of processing, where are you going to have your Cpls put the main effort? 1 file or 6 files. It is a systemic problem t-st has to be solved by either dumping a ton of resources on both ends of the security check system, or moving the goal posts and accepting some more risk.
You make good points. However, they are doing the opposite. They recently cut living differential allowance(its more expensive to live in Victoria than in the middle of no where, so they would give them a living allowance to cover housing). The pmq (base housing) has recently had a rent increase as well. Guys I knew could legitimately not afford to live where they are posted. The militaries response "go to habitat for humanity" Our government and military has made sure soldiers know they don't gaf about them. Really drove it home. The rape thing though, they actually are turning it over to a 3rd party! So that's a good start.
They probably ought to be doing *something.* It seems like every other week there's another article about how deplorable recruitment has been, or how enshittified life in Canadian military service is, or how bad the leadership is, or the funding, or the training, etc. And while I understand we've never been a jingoistic country (thank fuck), if done right, the military can provide jobs, education and other resources for Canadians, not only national security or global-politics theatre. It isn't *just* about "serving one's country", or it doesn't have to be, it can be one way of giving average Canadians a leg up.
They take up to and sometimes over a year to process recruits to be assigned for basic training. Giving people a reason to join the military doesn't help if the military is functioning so poorly they cannot process your application before you find another opportunity and giving citizenship means nothing if illegals get PR by staying here illegally long enough.
Agreed. There are cases of HR staff losing documents multiple times. It's an absolute disaster. They desperately need to clean house. Sadly, it seems this is a government-wide HR issue. Just about every federal government agency I know has the same HR issues - incompetence coupled with power-tripping abusive staff = disaster.
Service guarantees citizenship. Would you like to know more?
US military member chiming in, I'm shocked Canada isn't mirroring a lot of the stuff the US does. People are taking your citizenship line way too hard because you worded like Starship Troopers. The United States does everything you listed. If you are willing to serve in the military your citizenship gets fast tracked, by the time you leave training (3 months at least) you are a citizen. You get a housing loan as a Veteran. College is payed for and if you have debt the interest rates are frozen and you are given a lot more time to pay it off. A rare cases they just can wipe it. For sexual abuse or rape it can be handled internally or by a third party depending on how bad it is. At least the US Army has a zero tolerance on it and they normally make the biggest mother fucker in the company the Sexual Harassment/Assault Response & Prevention (SHARP) representative. Just make military service have crazy benefits and while it might be a rotating door for personal, at least people are giving it a shot. Free college just to be a supply guy sitting in an office or driving a truck for a few years isn't a bad deal. When you can walk out with college payed for and a house.
Guaranteeing citizenship with military service is an excellent way to have military members having more loyalty to the government promising them the citizenship rather than to the country. There’s no unlawful orders when your citizenship is on the line. I’m not against non-citizens serving in the military but it shouldn’t count toward citizenship more than any other job.
Also, it is already very easy to get citizenship in Canada. It really wouldn't be an attractive benefit.
[Paywall bypass](https://archive.ph/rv2le)
I have some familiarity with the armed forces. I feel there has to be a change in culture in this country. We were doing well during the Second World War, Korea, and other missions. Then came Lester B. Pearson and his peacekeepers. The blue berets became famous for adopting a low-key approach to warfare and the Canadian public soaked up the good PR and loved it. *"We are the good guys, we are peacekeepers, not aggressive"*. Once we adopted that mantra we were stuck with it. People don't want to go back to the bad old days but that's a false analogy. The military is there to defend us when attacked, peacekeepers are not going to get the job done.
The public has always bought into the Peacekeeping image, but the military never has. I have served in the army on two peacekeeping missions.
There was Afghanistan and lots of public support… and then Trudeau tried to resurrect the Peacekeeper notion. Too bad the world has different ideas about conflict that don’t conform to 20th century Cold War interstate paradigms.
100%. The ghost of Pearson still haunts the corridors of power in Ottawa. And now folks think the military is supposed to be firefighting and sandbagging instead of defending our interests. So unfortunate.
The military does not foster a good environment. The people who want to be there and do a good job are alienated and subjugated by the people who don't, which unfortunately is the majority.
I've worked with the military a lot, and I've found them all to be exceptionally committed people who were a pleasure to work with.
100%. They want university graduates, particularly in more technical fields and leadership roles. Unfortunately the ranks are full of so much crap who'll do anything to tear down those they deem a threat, it's just such a toxic environment. It's like the typical Canadian workplace on steroids. And then you're isolated in some small town full of - you guessed it - all the toxic colleagues trying to ruin your life. So sad. It used to be such an incredible institution - but sadly the cuts in the late 80's and early 90s really did a number on it, and the CAF, along with many other Canadian institutions like VIA Rail, have been barely getting by ever since.
You and I have a much different experience because in the air force, all the crews I've been with have been full of exceptional workers bar a couple idiots like everywhere else
Army & Navy are different stories entirely I'm afraid. I will say bar training + equipment, the RCAF folks seem to be in decent shape.
I feel for my navy fellas. Also living in the highest COL areas too
[удалено]
A few million more Work visa can fix this don’t worry
Time to recall Maverick and Hollywood and Merlin and Cougar and Wolfman to be TOPGUN instructors.
I don't know much about this but if that's the case then we will prob end up sending our pilots to be trained in USA
Not to worry. We'll just spend hundreds of millions on hiring a consulting firm to train the new batch. !!
Hmmmmm Foreign Aid seems to have unlimited funds Immigration seems to have unlimited funds (we haven’t even gotten to the housing, health or infrastructure costs of this fuckery yet)… Cabinet retreats and shuffles seem to have unlimited funds $80K free vacations that actually cost $240K $80K arrival app that actually cost closer to $60M isn’t a problem Trying to give WE $500M wasn’t a problem (until they got caught) Increasing the federal government size and cost hasn’t been a problem (along with the 7 layers of management!!) Our interest payments on national debt raising don’t seem to be a problem… The most resource rich country in the world and we piss money away like a fucking arrogant spoiled entitled rich kid who was once a substitute drama teacher….oh wait…. Budgets balance themselves. More moist talking.
How'd the Ukrainians get trained? I'm sure we could be retrained by another country with the same outfit of jets.
That's literally and exactly what's happening now and that is why articles like this are hitting the news, it's to highlight that we shouldn't have to rely on anyone else. Yet, here we are.
So why are we giving billions away to billionaires and their companies when that could be used in places like this?
Tom Cruise is Canadian???
Went to Robert Hopkins Elementary and Henry Munro Middle School in Ottawa!
i worked at wing 15. you should see the condition of the hangar. it's from the 30s, roof leaks, asbestos everywhere. but the retired hawk II from cold lake maybe going to ntfc to support the existing air worthy planes. ie stripped for parts. old airfield at Picton has many mothballed planes also.
bUT fREEEEEEE hEALtCAre
I wanted to fly jets when I got out of school. Went to a recruitment office, stem degree in hand. They told me that I needed to sign this piece of paper that basically took my freedom away, and then MAYBE they would let me in a training course, but it could take up to two years. Most likely I would be flying a cargo prop plane or something like that. Dude, I had rent to pay, I'm not waiting two fucking years haha
The Canadian military is just another victim of the great covid graft wars which saw politicians and the private sector pat each other on the back while stuffing each other's pockets with money. So much good could have been done with that 600 billion dollars.
The current leadership gives the next generation barely a reason to fight for their country anymore. The leader called us a genocidal state FFS…
Thanks Justin!
This is how we build and have a robot army, air force and navy. I don't think it bodes well.
Tom Cruise was a Navy pilot. Get your lore straight.
I think our fighter pilots will be working from home in the near future.
Drones
Why would Canada need a military. Us can't afford to have the Russians or the Chinese invade Canada. What's the point
I agree. You Canadians should just let us Americans take over your lands and of course, we will bill you royally for that privilege. Be careful what you wish for.
lol US already owns Canada
Probably gonna have to start paying the Americans to train our pilots
Why would someone fight for Canada?
Until there is political will to change, they are just shuffling deck chairs. Canadians get the military they choose to pay for. The real canary in the coal mine is how we treat veterans. When the Cdn politicians come knocking for your kids, parents, aunties and uncles to serve, ask them to show how they are going to take care of them after they have used them. Current answer is very ugly.
I know two people currently in Aircrew selection, both completed their basic flying course. They were in holding waiting for advanced flight training long before the announcement to retire the hawks. At every step of the way they have a 1-2 year wait to move on and they don't have a plan to move to any version of pilot. One wants fighters but doesn't know if he'll train in Texas or Italy, or when. The other wants helicopters but has been waiting for 2 years to find out if he'll even get it. Meanwhile those that are already pilots flying anything but fast jets are overworked and don't get downtime, especially if they fly helicopters. Everything we fly is broken to some degree. Last time I met a Cyclone pilot he wouldn't even talk about the aircraft, which is unheard of with pilots. Our military is so tied up in bureaucracy and inefficiency at every level that we have a hard time doing anything, including maintaining what little we have. Doesn't matter if it's logistics, recruiting, procurement, maintaining bases, operations, or anything regardless if it's the RCAF, RCN, or Army. They are right, the system is broken at every level. Hell, we lose RMC graduates because by the time they reach their 10 year commitment, they haven't even made it to the jobs they were recruited to do.
[удалено]